WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 886 - ​Ezra Furman / David Wain

Episode Date: January 31, 2018

Ezra Furman started writing songs when he was 14 years old after hearing Bob Dylan but while still wanting to be a member of Green Day. Ezra tells Marc how those seemingly contradictory preferences took hold in his music and performances, how comedy was his road not taken, and how he struggled with coming out to his bandmates and friends. Also, David Wain returns to the show after eight years to talk about his movie about the National Lampoon, A Futile and Stupid Gesture. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative. And they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look out at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fucksters i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it. Welcome to the show. How's it going? You all right? Oh, come on, man. Don't be that way. Come on.

Come on. Open up your heart and let all the terror in. Go ahead. Open up your heart and just feel. Feel the panic. I'm the worst meditation leader. Hey, I want everyone to take a deep breath. Yeah, take a deep breath.

Let it out through your nose. I think that's the way it goes. That's right, right? Clear your mind. Clear your mind. Just focus. Focus on the day ahead. Focus on the day ahead.

Focus on just everything that can go wrong today. Just focus on just the little things. Start off small. Have you gotten your coffee yet? That could spill on your lap, right? I don't even know if I'd stop. Did you stop already? Just be careful with the coffee. Don't dump that new thermos of coffee onto your lap or onto the car. Don't drop any food onto your lap. Think about all the things that could go wrong today and just dwell on them a minute. Yeah, you could get to work and, you know, your job's not there. Yeah, think about that. Yeah, how's that? You getting angry?

You getting aggravated? You getting tense? You getting terrified? Yeah, think about the world. Think about how there's no, you know, we're not part of the Paris Accords anymore and how, you know, we're just going to push aside all the clean energy entrepreneurial ventures and all the possibilities of clean energy and just reinvest in fossil fuels and coal. Think about that day where all of us will not be able to breathe at the same time,

that look we'll have as we go, I guess we're all going together. Think about the piece of that. Think about that, how nobody will miss anything because we'll all be gone in the same few hours. Is this negative? I don't think it's negative. I think it's important to acknowledge and realize this. Think about your own time on this planet and how short it is. Breathe in. Open up your heart to this. Open up your heart to this, the pure existential terror that we're constantly trying to hide from ourselves. Breathe out. Just breathe out all that peace of mind. Breathe out all of that well-being. Breathe out all of that gratitude. Breathe in the darkness and the fear. Am I doing this wrong? Am I doing it wrong? God damn it.

I think I'm doing it wrong. All right, folks, look. I didn't mention who was on the show today. Two guests. David Wayne. doing it wrong all right folks look i didn't mention who was on the show today uh two guests david wayne you know david wayne from the state from stella from his directorial adventures in film uh he's got a new movie it's about doug kenny from the national lampoon and it's about the that that beginning of that magazine it's called a futile and stupid gesture it's now streaming on netflix he'll be here in a minute. And I was very

happy to have Ezra Furman on the show. Ezra Furman has a new album. It's called Transangelic Exodus. Comes out on February 9th. And he was just a guy that, I don't know, I got some, I'll get into it in a minute. What do we need to talk about? Where are we at? The cats are starting to come to the new house.

Isn't that odd? I'm sort of dug in over there a bit kind of still in between houses obviously i'm still in here here at the garage still work getting done going on here but uh saw a cat on my uh on my new front stoop a cat they're coming they know where i am word is out the cats are on the move on the move david wayne and i go back david wayne and i go way back to the beginnings of our comedy careers uh i didn't know him during the state but i knew him after when all of those guys started to do stand-up and uh it's been a long time since i had him on he was on he was on a very early wtf and he's here now to talk about his new film about the National Lampoon,

A Futile and Stupid Gesture, now streaming on Netflix. This is me and David Wen. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No.

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actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. so david wayne it's been a long time since we chatted i looked it up with eight years ago is it really yeah eight years ago was the original wtf isn't that incredible it's a whole different world i don't even remember what you're promoting but you were married changed i was happy anything you ran into me on the street in new york and said i'm doing a podcast come talk to me it was that early on oh yeah and you do what what i a lot of my life was pretty different yeah i lived in new york at the time new york die hard new yorker yeah i had a second kid since then right i've made like three movies

i've uh done a lot of things moved to la you're not married anymore not married got divorced wow a lot has happened. Yeah. The entire country has changed for the worse. The whole country has changed. Everything's terrifying. And you've made another movie. And I just made another movie now. Yeah.

I know. That's why you're here. That's what brings you here. Aside from friendship. That was the impetus. What reminded me to want to come was that. How long have you lived here? About four years now.

Really? Yeah. When my oldest son started kindergarten and I'm like, I was looking at the calendar and it looks like I'll probably be away nine months next year. Right. In LA. Yeah. So I'm like, this is stupid.

And how old's that kid now? He just turned 10. And how old's the other one? Seven. Just today. They're young kids. Today's his birthday. Really? And you're here? Yeah. Where's he? He's in school. I how old's the other one? Seven. Just today. They're young kids. Today's his birthday. Really?

And you're here? Yeah. Where's he? He's in school. I was just at his school. Oh, it's Friday. Yeah. I was just giving him and his classmates some donuts.

And is the mom here? The mom's here too. The mom was there with me. Uh-huh. We're friends. You are? Yeah. Well, that's good.

We see each other all the time. Oh, good. Yeah. That's nice. And what part of town did you settle in? Studio City. Oh, there's some nice homes up there. Oh, it's great.

I know a lot of people that live up there. Well, coming from New York, I found a little spot where I can walk to the coffee and the pizza. Oh, yeah. Do you really do that, David? I do, because it's really right there. And so I go with my kids. Like this morning, we walked to the little coffee shop for breakfast. Special birthday breakfast with my kids.

Because I did that. When I moved here, I moved over by Franklin, by that one block where the Gelson's is and the old UCB and the Bourgeois Pig and the Chicken Place. And I was like this feels like New York. It's a block at three stores. Within a week you're driving everywhere. I don't

think it feels like New York, but it's just a nice thing to not have to get in your car sometimes. Yeah. Rarely though, right? Yeah. I go to that strip a lot. Oh, good. All right. I also bike a lot.

I try to stay out of my car. Oh, I need to exercise. I can't even talk about it. I've been on a shoot for months and, you know, the craft services. I'm just like eating out of self-contempt. yeah so the the national lampoon movie yeah a futile and stupid gesture it's called i i ended up i got a screener of it the day before yesterday and i watched it yesterday because my awesome yeah my uh my call time was pushed so i'm like well i guess i'll watch david's movie i'm so glad you did that it's the first one of your movies i've seen in a while nothing personal

don't worry about it. Yeah. I think we live in this great era in our business where there's absolutely no expectation that you've seen your friend's stuff because there's too much stuff out there. Yeah. And it's sort of like, I don't, you really, it's a matter of time. Yeah. And then you're like, oh, that's right.

He did that one. I should get back to that. And also, I think we live in an era where the party's always ongoing. There no late to the party you just get back to it you're never gonna have an yeah everything's on all the time that's right everything's on all the time but i had uh an interest in the subject matter i i'm a uh a heavily uh national lampoon influenced person and are you interested in comedy no that had no pull okay so well but uh but the lampoon i enjoy in comedy no that had no pull okay so but uh but the lampoon i enjoy yeah of course sam but how old are you uh 48 so okay so i'm 54 yeah like when i was i guess the first issue of lampoon was probably like 71 of national lampoon or so 1970 we're in there with the duck and the woman right

like i there's there's a chapter in my life where you know i coveted the national lampoon because i i in 1970 i was like seven but like i'd see it on the newsstands and it was always very compelling and lurid and something grown up about it and then i started reading it around i can't remember what issue it was but it was all very mind-blowing it was clearly adult humor yeah because i was a mad magazine kid me too right so like that was the jump you know mad magazine to national lampoon right and when you made that you definitely felt like it was a rite of passage and it was for me it was like you know 13 probably 14 maybe years old yeah see i never quite made the jump i never felt like i

was smart enough and because i i think being just that much younger also yeah the height of the lampoon was I was already it was already kind of declining by the time I was old enough to read it uh-huh from my from I get it I get it yeah no I it was still pretty vital uh by when I was in it because it was still the 70s because I was I was bar mitzvahed in 76 okay good so you know it was still I think it was still at the height, really, wasn't it? Yeah, at that time it was. And it was like, I just remember, like, there were certain things that, like, stick in my mind. What's the great story where the guy wakes up with a vagina?

Right, yeah. That was great. I remember the Eddie Bauer catalog satire because of the pictures. Some of it goes so far, too. It really gets edgy in a way that I don't know. Oh, it's crazy. Michael O'Donoghue's stuff was way out there. Out of his mind.

And I still have, I think I still have the, somewhere, the yearbook satire. Which is awesome. Which you spent a lot of time on, or a little bit of time on in the movie. Yeah. And the comics in National Lampoon were great too. And the photo funnies, which you used to sort of, you used a lot of devices in the movie to keep it going, keep it moving, keep it funny. Yeah.

And keep it cohesive too. Well, it was cohesive, but you have a timeline there. Yeah. And, but you, there were some very meta elements that were funny devices that kind of did not distract from the story and it made it kind of lively. Doing a biopic is an interesting challenge, and I've never done anything like it. Well, what compelled you? What comedic spirit compelled you?

Well, I mean, there's obvious reasons why I'd be interested in it, because it's about the thing that I do, comedy. And it's kind of like chronicling the generation that came one or two before mine did. Yeah. It's our community paying homage to the earlier community. But the project was not initiated by me. Colton and Abood, Michael Colton and John Abood got together with Peter Principato and John Stern, who were the producers of it.

And then they came to me with the book that was written by Josh Karp in 2003. And we've been working though together on it since before they wrote that first draft of the biography of Doug Kenny, the biography of Doug Kenny, the founder. Yeah. And so it's been almost 10 years.

We've been working on this together and trying to crack the nut of how do you tell a whole life story and you know, how do you put it on film and it was a really uh it was a really cool thing i've never done anything that was about real people and some of whom are still alive and um so we together kind of did it so what well so how did you like early on you know because you when you think biopic and you think about biopics like the one thing that was sort of playing in your favor is that your your main character was not as visibly recognizable to most people well to me this is one of the big appeals of this yeah this is somebody

that most people never heard of right and if you're a comedy nerd maybe but most people have never even heard the name right uh but he was such a pivotal central figure in the creation of comedic point of view that we all are part of. Sure. Well, yeah, going to SNL, to Ivan Reitman, to the film careers of that first crew of SNL people. Harold Ramis, yeah. Yeah, and the Lampoon in and of itself.

It was very interesting. What made you decide to have Martin Mull, in essence, be a non-existent, older Doug Kenny. What was that? The initial impetus was that when I first started talking to the writers about how to shape it, I felt like we should be as outside the box as we can

and not just do a plotting, chronological, generic biopic about this guy who was far more interesting than that to me. And, and I wanted to, I feel like, well, what would Doug Kenny have enjoyed as his own life story?

Yeah. And also this idea of having the modern Doug Kenny narrate ended up being useful in so many different ways that helped us to tie together all these disparate episodes. Yeah. And it gave it a modern day point of view on all this stuff, which I thought, which turned out to be pretty important to us because the humor of it,

you know, it has its own, it exists in a time and a place when a context it's not, not all of it is funny in the way that it would be if you were saying like, here it is today. So you think so? Well, it depends.

I mean, certainly there's plenty of stuff in, if you think about it, you look at the first season of SNL, the same thing. There's some stuff that just doesn't feel as funny just because it feels old or not fresh and other things have changed because of the cultural yeah ways have changed um certainly everyone's talked you know people talk a lot about how misogynist it was which is true it's hard you can't deny it um but it seems like if you contextualize some of the more poignant and pointed satire from National Lampoon, you know, it's certainly worth its weight.

You know, they weren't pulling any punches. And in some ways, you know, it was meant to go beyond funny to just tasteless. Oh, yeah. They were looking to push boundaries. Yeah. Sometimes more than be funny. Right. Yeah.

Because there's that great scene with Matt walsh as maddie simmons that's maddie maddie uh you know comes running down the hall in a montage of people suing right everyone sued them yeah and you know that they got off on that you know they were all about how exciting that was but i noticed that there were am i wrong in that were there actors from animal house secondary actors from animal house in. Like, was the woman on the tour bus? The tour bus. Was one of the cheerleaders? Was one of the cheerleaders, Smith, who was the one who, at the end of Animal House, it says... Not the cheerleader. Babs.

The Babs, the sorority. The Omega girlfriend, yeah. And was the guy who played Niedermeyer? Right. He was one of the executives. And so we tried to, you know, and made a little reference. And in fact, he says in the movie, what are you going to do with your life right which is a reference to his that move that twisted sister music video that yeah yeah right you know we like to just we thought why not have fun with

this we don't we we wanted to in anything i do i try to not take it too seriously in the wrong way but take it seriously in the right way but you did how were the facts were they tight i mean did you yeah bend the truth at all? It was so exhaustively researched and we knew everything that we were doing and what was right and what was wrong.

But then we knew there's a part in the middle of the movie where we list all the things that we changed for dramatic reasons, you know? Yeah.

And so, yeah, there's plenty of things in there that either we don't know or that we changed to tell a more clear story. And that's just, I think, what you have to do.

And he had all these people that we had some, he had Joe's in it. Joe Giulio. Yeah. Tom Lennon. Tom Lennon was great. Michael O'Donohue. He was great. Inspired.

Yeah. It was really a good performance. He's amazing. Because there is footage of Michael. You know, there's plenty of footage of Michael. Anyone who watched SNL in the early days knows him. Or fucked up movie he made right mondo video do you remember that mr mike's mondo video that was crazy i remember watching that late night like what the fuck is this well that guy was out of his mind in the best way joe mckale played chevy jackie jackie tone

played uh gilda radner and all those I mean, every one of those characters and those performances, we didn't have room to do much with any one character. And I would love to see a whole movie with these same cast even of the early stages of SNL. Yeah, Daly, John Daly. Was that John Daly? Yeah, John Daly playing Bill Murray. That was good. He did a great job.

But I was surprised Tom Lennon was really, you know. He really locked locked in and Natasha Natasha Leone played Anne Beets Matt Walsh was there yeah it was powerhouse sounds like an amazing cast comedy ensemble wow yeah everybody was represented there it was cool

and Emmy Rossum plays a key role as his girlfriend Catherine Walker oh yeah yeah yeah yeah I thought that um yeah i and what who played the guy who played beard uh henry beard is donald gleason who you might not recognize but he's like one of the top actors now he's the guy in star wars who plays the redheaded uh yeah colonel and he's been in a million uh he's been in like six or seven movies was that him with the from the revenant yes donald gleason now he's in everything yeah he's been in like six or seven movies this year. Oh, wait, was that him from The Revenant?

Yes, Donald Gleeson. Oh, he's in everything. Yeah, he's an Irish redheaded actor, but he's almost unrecognizable in this. Yeah, no, he's great. That guy's in everything. Yeah, I thought that was a good, because I'd seen the documentary recently. Right, Drunk, Stoned, Brilliant Death. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Where did that go? It just seemed to be. It was, I don't know, people saw it. It was like all documentaries and maybe a tiny release in theaters but it was on netflix and a lot of people saw it i thought it was awesome i uh i found myself very impressed towards the end of the movie with the transportation of the cocaine in a tennis ball like i like for some reason that detail is like wow that was true yeah it was true yeah and also what was uh the story we heard about

chevy chase having this very fancy case where he kept all his cocaine and all the paraphernalia and it really likes as if it was uh the bomb you know it was amazing so when you when i i like how you went through all the stuff that they were sort of you know the pitch meetings and then the type of stuff they were satirizing the enemies because this was a an intimate media landscape where uh you know the magazine like that could have some impact and effect. Yeah, it's a different time. That's another thing I tried to communicate to maybe younger audiences is magazines were huge. Yeah.

And Lampoon was really the voice of counterculture. There wasn't anything on TV like that until Saturday Night Live came along. Right. And it was still like sometimes. And you used the photo funnies to document the dissolving of his marriage. That was clever. Photo funnies were important.

Photo funnies were amazing. I mean for people who might not know that they would take these little dumb photographs in their office and then turn them into comic strips. Not even turn them, just like literally write little comic balloons on them to make these dumb jokes and they became very popular and often had boobs yeah a lot of boobs yeah it was it was good because if you couldn't get hold of a playboy as a 13 year old you know right you could get

those into the house you could get national lampoon and that was really like that was the window that was why so many people ended up ultimately picking that up because of the boobs yeah yeah that's like why i watched john feinerazaar on Showtime because it had boobs in 1981. Oh, did it? Remember that? It was the first cable show that I was aware of on a premium network. And they actually had sketches. And every two sketches, somebody would take their shirt off for a second.

And it was incredible. It was important. Even if you didn't pay for Showtime and it was scrambled, you'd wait for a minute to unscrabble for a second. So what did you ultimately learn? What was in this process about comedy or about yourself or about anything? Anything? I mean, how long did it take to shoot that thing? Well, it took, I don't know, 20 some days to shoot.

Yeah. Maybe 30 some days to shoot. But it was a long gestating thing because we spent, you know, years and years putting it together and thinking about it. And then we actually stopped for six months during the editing so that I could, and a lot of us could leave and then spend, uh, the time writing, prepping, shooting, editing, and releasing the wet hot American summer miniseries, the second one on Netflix, 10 years later. But anyway, the point is we had a big chunk of time

away from the movie, which was really helpful for us to understand because a movie like this has so many different parts and modules and ways to attack it. So we did a lot of creative storytelling thoughts work in the editing and did a couple days res storytelling thoughts work in the editing. Yeah. And did a couple of days reshoots and then, and then finally put it all together.

Could you have ever imagined that that, that camp movie would be a franchisable business? Of course not. I was, I was, I remember when we were shooting it, I was praying we'd have enough money to finish shooting it. Yeah.

And then, you know, I was never sure it would even come out in any form and it and now it's developed this like loyal cult in an aging following i have to assume that saying that a lot of the people was a defining movie for have got to be almost 50 yeah they're getting it well yeah we are but i'm happy to say younger people seem to like it too but it's i who knew who knew is who knew we were just camp experience still the same. You think,

I mean, give or take, no, not at all. It's, I think the liability insurance actually changed camps experience a lot. And parents have expectations for their kids to have all sorts of computers and stuff. Oh,

that's right. And then some were going the other way. That are vetting of, uh, counselors. Yeah. There's a lot of, I mean,

the looseness, which I remember so fondly in my camp is just would never fly today right yeah it was loose and ramshackle and like we would just sit around all day sit around all day and all the counselors were fucking each other and there was no like sending photos back to parents like nobody knew what was happening yeah it was amazing it's a secret place you'd get a box from your parents every once in a while you'd hang around all day make out all night, and then come home at the end of the summer. And I remember coming back from my summer, and I didn't realize how dirty my mouth had

become at all. And I'd say to my mom, oh, I had a fucking great time. Fuck mom. Fuck this. Fuck that. My parents are like, what the hell? What happened? What kind of camp did we send them to?

Now, wait. Is there a plan for another eight? What hot, hot, hot, wet? Not at the moment. We sort of put a little. You've done 16 total? We did 16 half hours plus the movie. Yeah.

And the last one was the 10 years later, which has a bit of an ending to it, if you watch it sometime. And I think we have other ideas to now expand in other ways in the whu uh wet hot universe um but is that what you call it in the office that's what i'm starting to call it now okay putting that out there so we're just exploring that now and we'll see you know probably down the line somewhere now do you keep in touch with the all the other state people i have to i have to ask you that we still uh work together all the time in different configurations. I saw Showalter the other night. Yeah. I guess I didn't realize or put it together that he directed The Big Sick.

Yeah. Yeah. It was an amazing achievement this year for me. Yeah, I saw him at the Critics' Choice. And he also does that show Search Party. Yeah. And we did Wet Hot together. He had a great, crazy year.

Yeah, good, good. Because out of a lot of you, he looked like he had a tough year or two well everyone it's like one of those horse races where at the at the fair where the one comes ahead and yeah it's like we everybody has their moments that they just want everyone to keep working yeah you know what i mean there was a period there i'm like oh is he's just going to be a professor yeah you know and then it all of a sudden no i think it's cool that you you got all of us on your show. I think I did. Did I?

I think you did. Got them all. Or maybe not Todd Holaback. No, he's the outsider, though, right? Yeah, he moved to Korea. But he was the founder. I know, I know. But it doesn't seem like it's good.

Is it good? Is everybody okay? Is he good? Oh, yeah, he's fine. He's come back. We've done some things as the entire group in recent years. We did a Festival Supreme show, and we did some new material. I think I only had Ben on a live one.

Did I do a one-on-one with Tom? Or did I have Tom and Ben? I think I did do a one-on-one with Tom. Yes, you did. And then I had the two of them. And Joe, yeah. And Michael Ian Black, yeah. And Kerry.

Kerry, yeah. Kevin. Kevin, yeah. I think I did get most of them. Oh, maybe a Marino? Yes, I did a one-on-one with Marino. Yeah, and then he was Kevin and... Kevin, yeah. I think I did get most of them. Oh, maybe... And Marino? Yes, I did a one-on-one with Marino. Yeah, and then he was in my TV show too. But what have you done?

800 of these? Almost 900. So you're not going to... I'm at the place where I don't know. And aren't you at the place also where someone could say a name and you'll be like, I don't know that name. And you're like, but he was a guest on your show. No, I usually know the name, but sometimes I'm not sure if we did one right it's a lot of episodes right yeah i definitely

am at the point i guess i'm grateful where i forget whole things i did like somebody said you know i worked with you on blah blah show and i'm like i don't even know if i remember what that is you know oh my god we're getting old but it's good it means that we're not luxuriating in the past or dead or dead yet yeah all right buddies good talking to you congrats on the movie is fun and it's educational in parts you'll learn if you didn't see that documentary too on the national lampoon forget what it's called you should watch that as a primer is that the word i want a primer get to get your get it get your pump primed with some lampoon shit uh changed my life that magazine changed my

life so oh yeah i got an email uh mark email rita moreno the worst whooping i ever got that's the subject line hey mark thanks for years of enjoyment with the podcast comedy sets here in charlotte and the tv shows in about 1978 i was five years old and downstairs with my little sister and brother watching The Electric Company. My memory is of Rita Moreno as the director teaching us about punctuation. She concluded the lesson by raising her megaphone and shouting, the TV is on fire, to show us what an exclamation was. So to show what I'd learned, I walked up into the kitchen and yelled the tv is

on fire at my parents my dad took off like a shot down the stairs and when he came back up i didn't get a chance to explain at all i still remember that as the worst spanking in a childhood that definitely deserved some spankings thanks again and take care of doug doug i gotta say it didn't sound like you deserve that one and i think know, I'm glad you got this out. I'm glad you had this memory. But I think maybe if your father's still alive, you might want to discuss this and explain to him exactly what happened. And just maybe get a little bit of that,

a little piece of apology, just a little bit. You didn't get a chance. He jumped the gun. You learned something. I don't know how you feel about exclamation points now. Do you avoid them? Do you avoid yelling because of that? Do you get a tinge, a twinge, a twitch when you text someone an exclamation point or write

an exclamation point? I don't know, man. It sounds like I would take this email and read it to your father. That's what i would do so ezra firman look this kid this kid i don't know like i got some records and it there was something to him that's really how it happened uh i got i think i got his first two records and i you know there's a lot of kind of structurally familiar stuff you know it's good it's good rock definitely rocks but there's something really amazing about his song writing about his passion and about his rawness man he just like it was one of these it was like

phil elverum but different because that was painfully sad but then i had him on to talk about his uh his uh his album but but ezra just sort of like you know there was something some some songs were kind of 50s ish and so it just there was a lot of familiar drive to them but unique songwriting unique uh voice and just the the passion and the rawness of it just it got me going so i'm like who is like, who is this kid? Who is this kid from Chicago? So I asked him to come on the show. As I said earlier, Ezra's got a new record out called Trans Angelic Exodus. It's actually out February 9th.

And this is me talking to Ezra Furman. And now you're going out for the big tour. You're going to Europe? Yeah, Europe, USA. Yeah, the first chunk is just a solid two months away. Yeah. Two plus months. And what are you afraid of?

So I don't, I break down. I break down on the tour. I like, I have fun, but like if i don't if i'm not like sleeping yeah i go insane like right away oh and i'm like the first week uh it's like it's like two weeks in usually yeah uh really start to skid along the bottom of my psyche um what is that how does that manifest itself uh you got your depression yeah and you got your anxiety yeah and then like are they there's sometimes it's between those two things yeah you know yeah um sometimes it's just like lying on the back bench of a van and someone's like it's time to sound check and i'm like i can't do anything oh really and that kind of that kind of breaking down and then and then there's like yeah just

anxiety in different different modes like like panic about things not going well or it's a lot of stage fright sometimes but more often it's not about anything i mean i think i have a a a some kind of panic disorder i've had like panic attacks that get kind of yeah heavy and like gotta breathe in a bag kind of thing uh is that what people do uh i mean that's old school no i just like you can't catch your breath. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Breathing. My chest.

Remembering to breathe, I guess. Right. Yeah. My chest tightens up. That's where I go out of my anxiety. Like I can feel like I can't get a deep breath. But I've, I've, I've learned some skills. Yeah. I've gotten way better with that.

Like what, what do you do? What do you get? Ground yourself? Kind of? Well, yeah. At some point, I learned that what gets it going is that you feel it coming on. And like, this is bad. Something bad is happening.

Everything's wrong. I'm losing my mind. And it's actually being afraid of it that makes it a problem. if you just like here it is it feels bad yeah but it's just a it's just my brain doing a little thing right goes away and like it that really makes a huge kind of separate yourself from it as opposed to feed into it like it it's not the truth it's just my brain right yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, because I used to think like,

oh, wait, something's dawning, something's dawning about me about what it is to be alive. Right, right. Everything's actually horrible and I have been ignoring it. Your muse.

It's your muse that you're ignoring. That's it. The dark, depressing void muse. The void muse. Yeah. That's a good metal band name. Yeah, let Void Muse. The Void Muse. Yeah. That's a good metal band name. Yeah, let's do it. I'm fine with it.

So you have a big following in Europe. How's it working for you out there? They, so far, care about us more in England and Europe. And it's been that way from the beginning. Well, at the beginning, obviously nobody cared about us at all. No, the first weird thing is that we somehow had this...

When I was with my other band, my first band was called Ezra Furman and the Harpoons. Yeah, yeah. Three records worth yeah and we've we formed that band in uh in college when i was in college which college tufts university in boston i know where that is i used to live down the street from there oh really where'd you live i lived uh like uh on uh on cottage ave in somerville a couple blocks down

from red bones oh yeah of course. Like Davis Square. I lived in Davis Square before it was cute. Now it's really cute, isn't it? Did you grow up in New England? No, I grew up in Chicago. You're a Chicago guy? Well, Evanston. I should say I'm from Evanston.

I've been trying to say Evanston because that's where I'm from, the first suburb north of Chicago. So how'd you grow up? Like they're Jewish. You talk about being Jewish in the music. Yes. How many of you are there, you Jews, you Jewish Furmans? There are, so I'm from a family of six. Six kids?

No, no, four kids. Yeah. Three siblings. Yeah. Yeah, my parents are liberal Jews. I was a child of Holocaust refugees. Really? And he grew up in Boston. Your grandparents.

So yeah, my dad's parents escaped. They weren't in concentration camps. Got out under the wire? Yeah, really. Did you know him? I didn't know my grandmother. I knew my grandfather. Oh, yeah?

A haunted man. Yeah. How old were you? Also a very sweet, wonderful grandpa to me. Could you tell he was haunted, or you felt that from him? Well, I just remember, you know, kind of learning about what the holocaust was and then uh i think maybe some teacher encouraged me like yeah you should go ask your grandfather about his story and i tried to ask him and he just uh i think immediately broke down crying and couldn't speak

you know and just like so and it was this mysterious thing um like something and i never really got the whole story of his childhood i think he was like seven years old or something and and the nazis were invading and they left home they're like let's get out of here yeah and so like to me that's always like there was a message of that of like they were paranoid enough you know they got out ahead of the curve uh yeah no they survived i bet all their um their friends were like you're overreacting you know yeah so that makes me a paranoid person yeah i'm paranoid it's inherited yeah and how old were you when that and when? When I talked to him? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. Like really young?

Maybe I was 10 years old. Oh, yeah. So it's a real memory. Yeah. Are you the oldest kid? I'm the second of four. You have an older what? Older brother.

Younger brother who was in a band? Yes, that's right. Jonah. Jonah Furman of the band Krill. Yeah, he's got some fans at Krill. Yeah, they broke up i know he he put a hard end on that band it's over and then he went to go do uh get into the labor movement oh so he's gonna and unions he's he worked with he worked on this teamsters election of the underdog candidate oh really, really? So is he just a volunteer or is he an administrator in the labor movement?

What does he do? So now he... He's a lawyer or what? He's not a lawyer. He's working on... He's working for the New Jersey Teachers Union. Oh, yeah? And trying to unionize teachers and grad students.

Yeah, he's doing cool stuff. It was an impressive transition. Did the rock dream die for him, or did he feel like he wasn't doing enough? It didn't die. He was like, we did it. We did our band, and I think he was making a new record and he was like it's kind of the same as the last one and then they were all just like i think that we want to

do other things with our lives than just go from dive bar to dive bar right now yeah right and it was different very different musically obviously you're different people but like he like i listen to some of it it's more of a it's a trio right yeah and they do power trio power trio almost like um there's a little pavement influence a little like um minute men you know kind of you know they get noisy yeah yeah uh strange yeah yeah odd time signatures right stuff that really i admire and impresses me because i'm such a i'm just so terminally three chord oriented i love that about you well i think that's why like the first record hit me it was sort of like this guy's got a respect for those for that one four five business that's. That's right. It still works. Well, it does,

but there's so many almost homages to that era of rock and roll that you do. It reminds me a lot, too, of the New York scene, the first wave of punk rock. They sort of, Ramones, the Dolls, the Heads. A lot of them played with that stuff. Well, that stuff is kind of where I come from.

It was the first music I loved, loved. Like who? I mean, the thing at 12 years old that made me realize that I was like more than a little bit into music was Green Day. And that's a good game. That's a great. First of all, that is the music. The first album? Was it Dookie?

It was Dookie that got me. That's the music for a hyperactive 12-year-old. It's so perfect. Yeah. And then, of course, to read about them, it's this branching path. They're like, oh, who are the Sex Pistols? What? The Clash?

They were the portal. Yeah. Into the punk. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so I thought that was my destiny, was to be a punk rocker. And then some other stuff kind of took me by surprise. Like?

Bob Dylan. A lot rocker. And then some other stuff kind of took me by surprise. Like? Bob Dylan. A lot of Dylan. A lot of Dylan in the early records. The early Furman records. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. You can definitely hear it.

And there's also some like, there's some sort of Phil Spector-y, Springsteen-y kind of thing too, maybe? A hint of it? Mm-hmm. Did that do anything for you? I mean, I, oh yeah i i got really then then then the yeah like the raw nets hit me and i was like oh wait no this this is the thing like it was just thing after thing like no wait this is it yeah and then like growing i don't know i grew up listening like to mix cds and mixtent Femmes? I can't focus is the thing.

Yeah. Violent Femmes. Yeah, I heard about the Violent Femmes because somebody saw me play it on open mic and they're like, oh man, it's great. You love the Violent Femmes, don't you? And I was like, Violent, let me write that down. Well, you sound a little like him sometimes.

Like Gano. Like Gordon. Some of us are just blessed with the golden Gano voice. The nasal, like... Well, you don't do it all the time, though. It's almost like when you hit a certain note, you're reminiscent of it. And there's a rawness to that. The familiarity of that, of whatever he does, which isn't a lot, it definitely delivers.

I don't listen to many rock rock guys words but i have to listen to you and it's nice it's good it's not a bad thing yeah that but your voice is very gano thing and uh and a johnny rotten sex pistol thing that enunciation uh-huh out because i remember i saw johnny rotten on on tv and on like a VH1 thing or something, and I was like, the way that he's, everything he's doing is who I am, you know? That's how I felt at age 12. Angry? You were angry?

Yeah, and just like, and wanting to make sure you knew what the fuck he was saying, you know? He'll, an antichrist. Like, he really gives you all those consonants. Sure, yeah. Annunciation is very important. Yeah, I believe in it. I'm a words guy also.

I feel like I'm a writer. You definitely are. That's the first thing. I mean, that's what I thought i would be when i was a kid i i was into creative writing yeah but there no you definitely write the shit out of songs there's no there's no question about it and there's like certain like yeah right at the very beginning you know you take on big themes and you move through you know very you know dylan-esque kind of uh turns of phrase and long narratives. It's great.

And then you start, and then you filter in the sort of like bebop stuff. And then you filter in a little like, you know, good old time Buddy Holly rock. Sure, sure. You go through all of it. I mean, I've diagnosed with ADHD at age 16, so it's

musically expressed. I can't focus. I sometimes feel like i should have just just choose a sound and stay with it as or just like yeah but uh but you do the oddly still you do you do have that i think a mood and a and a kind of world view hangs over it all but a tone too i mean just you know because of the way you you know you've got a very urgent uh you know sensibility yeah so you know that kind of you know moves through uh you know all of it no matter what the what style you're playing in what about your other sibs what are or where what are they doing we uh all boys no All boys? No, I have my sister.

I have a younger sister. Older brother, younger sister, younger brother. What's the older brother up to? He's an artist. So we're all artsy types somehow. Like a painter or what kind of... He's a visual artist, a painter, sculptor. In Chicago?

Well, he lives in New York now. Yeah. Actually, Jersey City. Jersey City. Home of the former Maxwells. That's right. Oh, that's Hoboken. No, no, that's Hoboken.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that kind of. Yeah, I was born in Jersey City. Oh, really? Yeah, but that was really the last time I'd spent any real time there. I hope you enjoyed it. Yeah, it was nice. I hope you enjoyed your time there.

I did all right, yeah. My dad was from there, Jersey. So what did your dad do? Nothing artsy. He's a stock options trader at the Chicago Board of Trade. Yeah? Yeah. Still around?

The stuff that numbs my mind. Yeah. Is he still around? He's still around, yes. Yeah. Do you guys get along we do we do i i'm i'm one of the lucky ones yeah i really do family or in general in general in this world i think our our family is like really it's just one of those close families i

mean we used to have we had all kinds of troubles and conflicts growing up and they and they really faded away and we just are just tight we're buddies all of you all of us what's your sister do she's a poet i mean so now she's uh i don't know i don't know how we all turn into artists like that because because uh what our parents are are not they don't seem particularly artsy although my mom does uh does do like a poetry group and writes poems in her spare time kind of uh-huh so your sister's a serious poet yeah well she got the whole mfa and uh and um yeah she's a serious poet but she's she's where she's living in nashville and she's a serious poet. But she's living in Nashville and she's working at Vanderbilt University, I think. Uh-huh.

Teaching? Not teaching. Doing administrative stuff. She likes it down there? She loves Nashville, yeah. Yeah? Do you like it? Yeah.

Yeah. I do too. I like the city, yeah. It can be a tough music town. Sure. There's a lot of people who, I don't know, there's tons of musicians there, and then some people, sometimes they get a little snobby about it. Sure.

Yeah. It's a real industry town of a certain industry. I don't hear much country in your catalog. Yeah. It's, it's a real industry town of a certain industry. I don't hear much country in your catalog. Yeah, it's... Like, it's not... Like, I know I can hear a lot of the bebop, the Dylan, the old-time rock and roll, some ballady stuff, but, like, there's nothing, you know, noticeably twangy.

Am I missing something? I'm very suburban. Did I miss one? Yeah. Is there a twanger on there? There's some twangy am i missing something i'm i'm very did i miss one yeah is there a twang around there's some there's some twangy moments i've written some some country-esque weepers you did there's a like that what is what called hour of deepest need uh-huh that's uh well i guess dylan had a lot of country elements too right oh yeah hour of deepest i mean if you're trying to be i mean like i am trying to be a student of the great songwriters so you know you gotta you gotta go to towns van zandt etc

at some point yeah for you can only dip in you don't go in too long that's right for any one time i know you come out real sad. Sense of enveloping darkness there. Oh my God. You can feel it right away. I know. Like, you know, before you even start singing. Have you ever seen video of them where it's just sort of like, that's like fucking heartbreaking. I know.

It's like just drowning in liquor. Yeah. It's very upsetting. What was your first dylan experience so that was a special thing because i was like i i wanted to get a guitar and play punk songs right you know and uh my it was i think my mom was like we'll get your guitar yeah you're gonna get an acoustic guitar, and you're going to play, you're going to, like, learn some songs that we like. Right? Here's your songbook.

And so she got me a book of Bob Dylan songs, chords, you know? Yeah. And I was like, okay, I will listen to one of these songs and learn to play it and show my mom, and I'll be off the hook. Yeah. And then so I went, it was an alphabetically organized thing, so I went to the first song, Absolutely Sweet Marie,

found my parents' Blonde on Blonde CD, and I was like, okay, what's this? How would I do it? And then, you know, suddenly it's like this, wait a second, wait a second.

It's all here. Can we hear that again? And then, you know, Blonde on Blonde became my thing. Then my, that's what started like Blonde on Blonde I want to be a

great writer I want to be like a Visions of Johanna is like one of my favorite songs ever that shit is incredible it's insane man it's like everything's

in there I know there's so many songs of Dylan's where you're like it's all here everything all questions

are answered special guy special guy. He's a special guy. And by that time, he's sort of like, he's built this world where he can do anything. And on Blonde and Blonde, he's just like, he's moved all the parameters.

Yeah. He's broken down all the fences, and now he's got like a playground to make this giant double record on. The songs feel, yeah, they feel like there's everything in there. So when did you first start writing the songs how old were you i guess i was 14 uh-huh uh did any of that dylan with with it was just it was just taking that dylan songbook and changing the words and then changing a few chords like i would take a song and do it exactly, but it'd be a song I never heard.

So I didn't know actually how it went. Right. And then I'd change all the words and then I've got it. Then I wrote a song. So you figured out how the, the, the way he rhymes or the way it works with him. I mean,

it's a very specific way he turns phrases. Like it's the poet's game that, you know, he, no one writes songs like him really. Yeah. Right. And the thing, I mean, it's the poet's game that, you know, no one writes songs like him, really. Yeah. Right? And the thing, I mean, I'm amazed that I stuck with it.

With Dylan? Well, actually with writing songs. Because I was really, I could, from the get-go, I could not sing well at all. And my parents tell me now, like, we were really, they were really... Concerned? They were like, should we take that away from him? Because, like, we can't,

we can't allow him to think that he's good at this. He won't stop making that sound. They told you that? They told me much later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were like, let him figure it out.

Uh-huh. But I was content to be bad at it for a long time. Well, Dylan, there's a lot of people that would argue he's a horrible singer. That's crazy. He's an amazing singer. He's got control. He's got an unusual voice.

No, I agree. He knows what he's doing. And he's played around with it over the years. So you were writing in 14. Did any of those songs remain? Did any of them make their first record from when you were a kid i think the first one that i kept and eventually released i probably wrote when i was just 16 yeah on the first record on the first record like stuff like american highway uh-huh um which you know it makes me kind of cringe now.

Does it? A little bit. Yeah. Actually, that's not right to say. It's just you nitpick your old stuff. Of course. You could have done something differently. Right.

I would now, but it was... But I don't know. I mean, I listen to a lot there i i mean i listened to a lot of them and i listened to them you know recently you know there's a lot of interesting ideas on on that first record that like god is a middle-aged woman that's a good song and uh my soul has escaped my body that's a good one it was it was very alive yeah that you're all jacked up i'm a little i'm i I cringe also because I didn't care that I was like singing way out of tune or whatever. Yeah. I mean, I remember at that point, I didn't care about anything musical.

Like we would do the first take of the song and I'd be like, okay, next song. And, you know, the guy recording, he's like, yeah, maybe we should do it a few more times. And I'm like, what? We did it already. It sounded, it was cool. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's good, though. But where'd you record that thing, though?

Were you in college or was it after college? Were you in? It was during college, yeah. So you were like, what, 19? When we recorded, I think I had turned 20. Yeah, but we formed the band when I was 19. Who were those guys? Any of those guys play with you anymore?

No, I see them from time to time. Are they still in the game? In the music game? No. They really got out, and they're all kind of much happier. Really? No, I mean, I feel like they were all like, you're good at this.

You're going to maybe be in this for life. We're going to go, like, become lawyers. So did you do those, they became lawyers? Well, one of them's a lawyer. So you guys did those first two or three records all when you were in college? And they were able to sort of like, that was a college thing. Good luck with everything. And then we did a few years after college

and they were starting to be like, is this really my life? Right. Because it's like... It's a heavy commitment. People didn't care about our band. Right. We didn't make money.

You didn't have a following in Boston? A little following. We could maybe sell out the uh upstairs middle east oh upstairs upstairs a little room right oh yeah um or fill it anyway but yeah um wasn't you weren't launching or anything it's like a couple blogs that liked us and that was enough to keep us going somehow so you they peel away and then you do the solo record you do three records with the harpoons in college and where do you record them in your house uh well we did a demo in a dorm room and then no we got a record deal that's the shocking thing it's like we formed the band and

we were like well we could get summer jobs or like take summer school classes or we could go on tour this summer. Yeah. Because I had a friend who became my manager, Mitch Marlowe, a hero of my life, who was like, you could actually, you could... In college you met that guy? I actually met him in high school. For a Chicago guy?

A Chicago guy. Yeah. He saw me play at an open mic which i used to do all the time when in chicago when you were in high school when i was in high school actually i'd go usually with my dad to down the street to a to a bar because i couldn't get in my alone so you're just acoustic guitaring it i'd play acoustic guitar and you know surprise all the the like uh 35-old dudes who are at the open mic. Right. I'm like, that kid, oh, that was kind of interesting.

Uh-huh. And so, yeah, so I met this guy, Mitch, and he was like, if you ever want to, you know, do a real music career with this, I can help. I'd, like, manage another band. I could manage you if you want. Who was his other band uh they were called the red walls uh-huh uh which they were a great very old that kind of 60s sound and garage group from uh from chicago suburbs and they're fantastic um so he took you on so he took us on once we had formed a band and he was like i'll call in some favors get you on like first of three at various dive bars across the midwest you know yeah first of three i never heard that term i like it yeah yeah that's a rough spot or yeah maybe first of

five yeah um and some of the bars uh made us stand outside because you know we weren't old enough to drink so oh my god you wait till you play then you play then you get out yeah no one's closing us down because you kids right yeah uh so yeah and then the shocking thing was that he got he got some he got a chicago indie labels vice president A&R guy to come to our show in Chicago and they were like that that was an amazing show you're signed let's do it with the harpoons you guys traveled over the summer you got the other where are all those other guys from um around the east coast we just we met at Tufts sure right that's right but they're all different places um but you got some you got some chops playing around boston then you went and did the gig in chicago and you get signed i wouldn't call them chops and we got signed somehow and

that was very shocking to us it was like the thing with me is like i just never my highest ambition was to record something in a record something and be on somebody's mixtape that they gave to their friend. I was like, if that could happen, that would be making it. I think that's happened. And that happened very quickly. And I was left with a problem of like, oh, is there other things I want out of this? You made some mixtapes. Some people put you on a mixtape and you're like am i done

yeah i mean i just it didn't occur to me that like this could be my career yeah i thought that was like a one in a million thing yeah you like somehow become famous and you're in a band i didn't i was a i was a dumb so once youold. So once you asked yourself those questions, so how many years did you do the first three records? Two years? It was like 07, 08, and 010, I guess. Uh-huh. And you were writing all the songs?

Yeah. How bad could you have the attention deficit disorder if you can kind of hold it together to play music and write songs? Or is that what focused you? Well, I mean, mean i thought maybe i was gonna be like a novelist i could only concentrate to write like a three minute thing we can but that takes hours sometimes doesn't it i mean yeah that's true that's true i got i've got some like even like on the solo record like american soil which is a great song that must have taken taken days. That took some time. By then, I started to edit, you know?

Yeah. When I first started, I was like, I would write the song in one sitting. Uh-huh. And then just go with it? And then it's like, it's done. Yeah, yeah. But I was also, my goal then was to write a song every week.

I felt very disappointed in myself if I didn't write a song a week. Yeah, so that's a work ethic. Yeah, which, yeah, nobody told me, like, that's a lot more than most people write. But it paid off. I mean, you put a lot on vinyl. You put a lot on, you laid a lot of tracks down. Do you know? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, the other thing is, like, I had my foot out the door a lot of the time because I wasn't, in college, I thought I was going to do comedy, or a lot of the time because i wasn't in college i thought i was going to do comedy which i wanted to mention to you because it was like the road not taken for me really because i i was in a sketch group in college really and i was i would like write humor articles and stuff for the newspaper when i was in high school yeah i really almost did almost did it. I saw people coming out of that and going into comedy careers. Did you try stand-up? I didn't try stand-up. I was kind of into improv.

I also used to go to Chicago Improv a lot, and IO, and that was just so fascinating to me. But you never tried stand-up? I never tried stand-up. I was just so fascinating to me. But you never tried stand-up? I never tried stand-up. I was just... It's interesting to me why I went away from it. I think I didn't get along with those comedy guys.

And it was too... Too rough for you? It was too bro-y. And I was like, do we ever get to connect in a serious way with each other? Or is everything like a bit? I just knew all these guys who were always on. You have to learn how to decode it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I just like, ultimately, it's not my instinct to poke holes in pretentious things. I think that's the comics. That's what comedy, you want to, that's what comic, comedy people want to do. And I like, I just like being serious and. But you do it though. I mean, I, I understand what you're saying is that I think that the, the, you know, what comedy does as far as, you know, truth to power or confronting, uh, uh,

you know, big ideas and big topics or hypocrisy or any of the stuff that comedy is fueled against. You do. You do with your songs. Maybe comedy was too limited for you. I'm not sure about that. Yeah. I mean, Dylan is pretty funny. But Dylan can be very serious.

And, you know, a turn of a phrase, you know, that packs a punch, it doesn't have to be funny. I mean, that's my favorite. Like, I like Kyle Kinane because of his turns of phrase, you know. Yeah. He writes those sentences. Like, I like people who play with words. That's my favorite thing but you can do but it doesn't have to be funny i mean but i understand that maybe the community was a little

too harsh yeah yeah they're harsh and i don't know maybe i was also too pretentious for it you know i i've got like i've got a pretentious streak like i'm an artist yeah i don't know well it also seems like on some of the records that like you were kind of um struggling for years with how you fit into the world well aren't we all aren't we all yeah yeah to some degree i mean i mean more so i think when you're younger yeah um because the solo record what what was that for you i mean what was there did you know like who were the guys playing on that on uh the year of no returning some some people it was a lot of me playing a bunch of different parts yeah stuff that i you know never really played lead guitar before that exactly. Yeah.

More of a chord basher. But the thing was that I moved into this house with some new people that I kind of just met, friends of friends. Where? In Chicago. Oh, you went back home? In Lincoln Square. Yeah. Yeah.

After like kind of basically two years of straight touring and almost not really having a home a lot of the time. With the harpoons? With the harpoons. And then I moved into this house in Chicago. And I'm like, let's take some time off from touring. And at the top of the house, the guy who became my new producer and bandmate, Tim Sandusky, he had built this home studio. And I kept going up there and looking around and be like I gotta do something in here yeah and I was I was I kind of went into this anti-social period of like I don't I just want to I just want to be a megalomaniac

about about a recording uh-huh and make all the decisions myself no no band democracy no voting on which song is the best like I'm just gonna make a really insular thing yeah i liked doing that um i don't know it's also like your college friends you've got your dynamic and it's a and you've known them for five years we've been spending 24 hours in a day in a car together and uh you kind of just have your old dynamic and i was trying to break it trying to go somewhere different uh-huh uh did you think you did it yeah it was a step in in a good direction yeah yeah what do you think about those old that old those old relationships that kind of held you back well they didn't they't, it was kind of weird just in a holding pattern at that point.

I mean, the other thing about it, I guess, is that I felt pretty closeted. I felt pretty among a bunch of bros and, you know, trying to get along with the bros and kind of tamping down my, you know, trying to get along with the bros and, uh, right. Kind of tamp, tamping down my queerness and my, I mean, but they knew or they didn't. I mean, they knew I was, I told them that I was bisexual. Yeah.

them that I was bisexual yeah but like I was just still saturated in the bro-yness and the like I didn't really have many gay friends and I I was just kind of there was something culturally suffocating me a little bit it was me it was me it was me just like refusing to tell anyone where I was at ever and just like in any room I would walk into, I just try to either be invisible or make everybody the most comfortable possible. Right. Take on their way of speaking. Right, right.

I just sort of like, yeah, zealot it a little bit. Like kind of like, you know, just adapt to whatever the flow is. And, you know, you kind of, it's a boundary thing where you just sort of like become kind of absorbed to protect yourself. Yeah.

Yeah. And it, over the years, it like, it was, it never seemed like a big enough deal to like have a, that's the thing that I think not everybody talks about about coming out like for some people it's like you tell everybody it's a big moment and it's a big break with the past of being closeted

but for a lot of people it's just like sloppy and you've mentioned some stuff to some people but like it's not really clear where you're at and you don't know and they don't know And there's a lot of alienation and like distance from people and kind of tacit dishonesty and it's just habits that I, that I had to break. Well, you had to make a clear decision for yourself somehow. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like it just sounds, yeah. I mean, I can't yeah i mean i can't i i can only imagine it that that you know the confusion it's it's the the not wanting to make waves thing yeah or the the the risk of of losing the affection or friendship of people you know must must hang loom pretty large yeah and you don't know you just don't know if they're going to hurt you, you know, and, or what, or whether they will go away. Right.

Yeah. Um, but these bros must've been okay. These guys who were traveling, they were great. Yeah. And they're not bad bros. No,

not at all. Uh, it was more of a me thing. And I think I just feel like making that solo record, all these moves I made in my personal life were mirrored by the by the musical choices I was making like deciding I need to go somewhere and be alone and make a record kind of mostly alone um was like taking some time to figure out who what's going on with me right and then and then i just like started coming out and more i started dressing feminine in public and uh

uh you know wearing dresses or or makeup and i started on stage first yeah because that's makeup and I started on stage first because that's it seemed easier it's just a show it's still vague I don't know if it's a thing about who I am David Johansson, anybody makeup and rock and roll is fine

sometimes it's a political statement you don't have to commit if you're on stage so the year of no returning was the beginning of you kind of in your, coming out publicly in your music and in general. Slowly. Yeah, it was sort of a step toward that. Right.

So that's 2012. And certainly by perpetual motion people, you're pretty, you know, you're dressing up. Yeah, sure. pretty you know you're dressing up yeah sure i'm in a dress on the on the record cover uh writing about gender yeah and stuff that's a whole weird thing because years and years of uh of like playing dive bars and like being a very obscure band yeah nobody really cared about us and we had this like weird moment where we had a hit song in Austria. We went to Austria like three times. Which song?

It was called Take Off Your Sunglasses from. Oh, yeah. That's a good song. Yeah. Yeah. And they really adored that. What was that? Day of the Dog?

Which one? No, that was from Inside the Human Body, the second Harpoons album. Oh, really? Okay. So that like kind of kept us alive. But then like it's like just mostly like playing shows and like people not coming a lot of the time yeah and even day of the dog came out uh like people didn't care yeah but then it was that record somehow it connected and the funny thing is i was just about to quit at

that point of course i was i actually actually had quit i decided in my mind that I think it's over. Being a touring musician, I can't take this anymore. And you've been at it for a few years by then. Yeah, like seven years. Yeah. Seven years of touring, a ton. Yeah. A ton.

I mean, yeah, this kind of thing, when musicians give their personal history and stuff, I would always listen to it and be like, what did you actually do? What did you do first? And then what did you do after that? Because like a lot of people are like, I don't know. Well, this happened and somehow lucked into this. It just kind of happened.

But for us, it was like we, I mean, the lucky thing was we got that first record deal. We never expected it. Then we just played shows forever. Yeah. For seven years. Yeah. And like, yeah. And then you do.

And then that band broke up. From the new band. Then Sandusky comes into your life. Is that his name? Tim Sandusky. Yeah. In the upstairs studio. Yeah.

Changes the game he plays with you now still yep yeah he's the he plays the saxophone uh-huh and yeah there's a like some stuff on i don't remember which album but there's some out there sax work on a couple where he does wonderful things yeah yeah uh i i found out that he played saxophone after i'd known him for it and recorded a little bit with him and i was like oh my god we need this this played saxophone after I'd known him for it and recorded a little bit with him. I was like, oh my God, we need this. Saxophone used to be the... Before every band had a lead guitar player, in the 50s they'd all have a sax solo,

like a ripping sax solo. I love that stuff. Yeah. You got a real thing for 50s music. Yeah. I've been trying to break that habit a little bit with this yeah this new music where really i don't know i just uh i just listened to the new single it's not quite 50s but it's definitely a three-quarter it's a three-quarter yeah all right so okay so you're gonna quit

and all of a sudden you're big in england all of a sudden yeah um and i still was gonna quit i was like yeah okay some that we got everyone's gonna quit five star review i don't care i've been through too much it's over i'm gonna i'm gonna move on to some other new phase of my life yeah uh and then we and then i felt bad like i just i've been like dragging my band through the mud and i was like well i should we should take this trip to europe i should give them the trip to europe i can't cancel this new band the boyfriends yeah so it was going to be the last tour and then we're like on tour in england and like every show sells out and like people are people know the words you know It's just like a whole kind of, just like the thing that I dreamed of for the first few years before I gave up on that ever happening. And we kind of had this night where I stayed up in this hotel room with Tim and was just like, this actually might not be the time to quit.

This might be it might be getting interesting now you're a real genius you figured that out yeah yeah we sold out all the shows maybe maybe we're finally on to something yeah and i had that's exciting the mood all changed i mean it still was a ton of like i don't know somehow the way we do it it's always it's always like we just work really fucking hard yeah well i mean it's a tough gig man we we scheduled maybe too many shows you know and just like pound the pavement all right so now what happens you're about to go on the road you're about to drop a new record yeah um and this is actually is going to be your seventh seventh full length record yeah in one form that's not counting like the little other releases yeah yeah

eps and b-side collections and stuff but uh it's what i read the seventh i yeah i know i i think it's like being a Beatles fan. You're like, they did two records a year, man. We got to keep putting them out. I just write a lot. I love... You still do the one song a week thing? No, I don't.

I started to realize that that was making me write a ton of bad songs. And then I'd have to sort through them and be like, I think there was a good one in here somewhere. Yeah, yeah. So I started trying to take more time on each one and really treat them like a writer writing a piece of literature. Which one did I just listen to? What's on your website, the new song? Probably Love You So Bad.

Yeah, yeah. That's a good song. With the cellos. Just cellos and drums. That one. Yeah, it's good. that's a good song with the cellos just cellos and drums that one yeah it's good wait well like it's a good story it's relatable to everybody it's a good thank you it's a little sad but it's good i know i'm i'm working on working on storytelling yeah are you consciously yeah i mean the, the whole, the new record is very characters in a setting.

And, you know, it's not really about me and my personal life so much anymore. Oh, yeah? So is it a concept record? I have this, like, hesitation. It is. I would say pretty much it is. I've been hesitant to say concept record about it because that makes you think of, I don't know. It ain't a rock opera. Well, it's...

It doesn't really have a story, an arc of a story, but it's a situation. It's called Transangelic... Transangelic Exodus. Uh-huh. Where'd that title come from? Well,

a few places, but it's just that this song, which is the first song on the record called Suck the Blood from My Wound, just kind of dropped into my head. I found this song in my brain, which for some reason was about an angel escaping from a hospital. I mean, the angel is driving in a car trying to escape a hostile government, an authoritarian takeover. Which like the undertones here are not that hard to understand of just paranoia about, uh, uh, a government gone bad. Um, and what they might do to vulnerable people. Um, so then I kind of just like had written this song, like, I guess I have to deal with this. What is this idea that I've uncovered? Um,

and so most of the, most of the record is set in a car escaping hostile authorities, me and my damaged angel. You're bloodied in songs throughout your career. Is that right? A little bit. There's a lot of blood and guts imagery, huh? Yeah. Fighting. Yeah.

Well, I took it from Lucinda Williams, I think, mostly. I don't know if you're into Lucinda Williams at all. I love her. I talked to her in here. I love her. Oh, you did? Oh, I took it from Lucinda Williams, I think, mostly. I don't know if you're into Lucinda Williams at all. I love her. I talked to her in here. I love her. Oh, you did? Oh, I should hear that. Yeah, she's great.

Yeah, she can really write a visceral image. Uh-huh. Yeah, it's good. So how does it end up with you and the beat-up angel? You know, I think it does. I think that's part of why it's not a rock opera it's not a story it's it's a perpetual situation

of perpetual paranoia and flight from from hostile authority yeah you feel that in your day-to-day life yeah kind of um i mean i think i think there's a deep paranoia and siege mentality thing that's just in me yeah from just i don't know growing up closeted queer yeah and uh and now and now you know current events are certainly aggravating that tendency sure uh and you're living in berkeley though now right i'm

living in berkeley california you have a good community up there? Do you have friends? Yeah, yeah. It's definitely a city of fighters. I'm in love with somebody who is a grad student, a PhD candidate at UC Berkeley in political theory. Oh, really? So I'm hanging out with a lot of people talking about stuff like authoritarianism. So that's playing on you? A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. My partner wanted me to mention that they're a big fan. Oh, good. That's very nice. Of your show. And actually I am too. Well, thank you. Since back in like 2010 or something i've been listening to this oh yeah

yeah uh yeah i'm i'm a pretty regular not every episode sure a bunch of them well thank you so how long you've been with this uh person a while yeah well we we met in in uh at tufts oh really yeah we haven't been together that whole time. It was breakups and moveaways, and we ended up together. That's a nice story. It's. That's a good story. That's a long time, man. Yeah, it's.

So, was he like the first, and now he's the, you know, he comes back around? Kind of. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you got to. Maybe not many people honor that you've come back sometimes you gotta break up to understand what it's like to break up and then be like oh we shouldn't have done that oh wow that was yeah chaotic move that's great now the tour so you what are you going to do to take care of yourself that's that's the question of the hour um well what do you i mean like are you druggy do you

drink too much what do you do i'm i'm very mild on all that stuff yeah that's good i mean i can feel myself when i start to get compulsive with with drinking a little bit i can see that's like be careful yeah but i'm i think i i was saved from being from being like an addict or anything by being just a very fearful person and like i like i'm an alarmist like uh like if i like if i have a bunch of emails to answer i'm like i don't want to answer these emails i'm going to like drink three beers yeah then i'm like i'm out of control i'm out of i gotta get what's what's going on with me i'm an alcoholic so like i just like get very afraid of it very quickly yeah yeah well

that's good fear is good in that situation yeah but do you do you actually you do you have a plan to to somehow make this a good experience uh i think i think I gotta remember to if I need to just lie on a hotel bed for an hour instead of going to see my friend who's in town maybe I'll just lie on the bed for an hour and I'll see them another time and have you been to all the cities you're going to

before I think so actually we're going to New Orleans which which we never played in new orleans which is surprising to me that's a trippy place have you been there i have i've never been there actually got its own vibe entirely i've been like you feel like you know you i've heard things and you get into the city you're like there's no place like this place yeah that's what I hear. Yeah. And also, it's particularly musically. Of course. You know, rich. Yeah.

Good food. Yeah, I've been to 48 American states, and one of the ones I haven't been to is Louisiana. Oddly. So you've got, what do you got? So I'll be at 49 once I go to New Orleans. The other one's Alaska. I'm not sure how I'll get up there. You're closer.

You're not that far in Berkeley. Just book a gig in Anchorage. Just to make it the clean 50 yeah why not i i do have to i i feel like i need to listen to some of your brother's stuff oh yeah it's it's magical it's so some of it's so intense he's also he's also a writer he's like a he's like did you guys play together when you were kids no not really ever i for some reason i was like my my parents would be like hey our friends are over for dinner come come play us music you know and i was game yeah uh and and jonah was like i'm never going to do that. Like, you know, I don't know.

Yeah, I think you can tell in your styles that that was. Yeah, he's more insular or something. I have like a lot of traditionalist instincts. Yeah, you got some pop music instincts. Yeah, I love, this thing is a lot more there. Three chords, you could do that for your whole life. Oh, you're preaching to the choir, buddy. Seriously.

I fucking love that shit. You know, it's, like, I remember listening to your record. I'm like, what is this guy? He's just nailing it. It was great talking to you. I'm happy to meet you. Great talking to you, Mark. Have a good tour.

Thanks. Okay. great talking to you i'm happy to meet you great talking to you have a good tour thanks okay go listen to him go listen to ezra it's good it's it's it's good you'll you'll you'll like it and i'm not hard selling i'm just saying i like it so that was ezra firman the new album trans angelic exodus comes out february 9th So that was Ezra Furman, the new album. Transangelic Exodus comes out February 9th. Oh, man. Am I playing guitar? Am I? Am I playing guitar? ¶¶ Boomer lives!

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