WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 888 - Tracy Letts

Episode Date: February 7, 2018

Tracy Letts is a Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright, a Tony Award-winning actor, and someone Marc is nervous about saying hello to when he sees him out in the world. Tracy tries to disabuse Marc of that concern as they talk about the difficult process of writing plays, the compromises made when turning a play into a movie, the pleasures of being in Lady Bird, the fear he had on the set of The Post, and the benefits of being married to another actor. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast.

Big day today. Big fan of the guy who's on today. Tracy Letts is here. He's a playwright and actor. You might know him from the most recent film, Lady Bird. He plays Molly Shannon's husband on that show divorce he was in uh he was in uh the post lets us here he wrote uh he wrote bug he wrote killer joe he wrote uh august osage county he's a i love the way he acts i i feel like i know the guy and it was great to have him in here to talk to him it was it was nice it was it was fun it was familiar i it's weird when I get it in my mind that I know somebody. I act like I know them, and then either it takes or it doesn't. That's my style. If I think I know you, I'll try to impose that on you. And I did that.

I did that with Letts to some success, I must say. I feel like we're close. I feel like we're friends. I feel like we're friends. I feel like we could hang out, feel like we could talk more. I also feel like I'll never see him again. Maybe I'll see him at an award show, which I did see him at an award show.

I saw him at the Critics Award Show. And then we talk about, I talk about my problem with approaching people at award shows, and it yields something at the end. So there's a tease for you. Something went down. You know what I'm saying?

Do you? How about an email? I got stories. I got things. I got comedy to do in a few hours. New York Moment subject line. Hi, Mark. Just wanted to let you know I love the show.

I like a lot of people our age. I'm 53. I've dealt with a lot of demons, ups and downs in my life, drinking too much, and gambling on sport and in the biggest casino, the stock market. On an upward arc now. Saved marriage, curbed the boozing, stopped the gambling, and working out on a regular basis. This leads me to my WTF moment. I'm working out, getting my sweat on at the local Equinox when this big dude asks to work in with me on a machine. I'm about 40 minutes into the workout and your interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates, which I'm really enjoying. I look up and there he is standing in front of me working his set of reps. I blurted out, you're Ta-Nehisi and you are talking to Marc Maron right now on my phone in the garage in LA.

Suffice it to say I calmed down down had a chuckle and a nice chat with the guys we worked out classic WTF New York moment keep up the good work love the show well that was that's fun man I good for you Matt I'm glad you got to meet that guy he's a good guy oh there was another email here that I thought was pretty funny it was actually really ridiculous and funny uh where would that be where would that email be oh here it is here it is mr groover mr groover is the subject line i woke up early this morning and decided to finish listening to your interview of laurie kilmartin at some point you all began talking about tim robbins and several times you both mentioned his role in Mr. Groover,

which was directed by Clint Eastwood. I'd never heard of this role or this movie, so I did what I often do while listening to your podcast. I began to Google it. I finally gave up when I couldn't find any movie with Tim Robbins or Clint Eastwood with the name or character Mr. Groover. My husband and I have often discussed how when we listen to your podcast, we find ourselves going down rabbit holes looking up stuff on the Internet. So when he woke up, I told him about my frustration and searching for Mr. Groover and coming up with nothing. I finally said the only movie I could find with Tim Robbins and Clint Eastwood was Mystic River. He looked at me like I was crazy and said, don't you think that's what they were saying?

He looked at me like I was crazy and said, don't you think that's what they were saying? It took me a minute, but it ends up that Mystic River sounds a lot like Mr. Groover when you say them out loud. I felt pretty stupid, but was glad to have the mystery solved. And we had a good little chuckle over it. I thought you would, too. We both love your podcast. Thanks for providing us hours of meaningful entertainment and for sending us down many rabbit holes. Peace, Lisa. Mr. Groover.

Okay. I've been trying to get exercise. I'm trying to work off the craft services that I indulged on in the last couple weeks of GLOW where I didn't give a fuck anymore. So I've been wanting to exercise. I've been wanting to run. My chest has been a little tight. The air has been a little shitty. But there are some hikes nearby to where I live now. I, and I didn't really know the hikes, but I went up to the place where they are. I went up to the park and, um, I lit out on one of

these hikes and I thought I was going in the right area. This happened fucking twice, two different areas. Like I went up one hill and then i'm like this is i remember this being the hike and i just hit this sort of strange dead end and then uh and then i went up another area and i went up there and then i i found myself in a wooded zone going up a steeper than seemed right incline with not any new footprints around. And as I went up, I smelled the stench of rotting flesh. I swear to God, I smelled death up there. I didn't know what it was. It, it smelled like a decomposing animal of some kind up on this, in this slight, slight clearing, but densely kind of weeded area up this incline.

And once that smell hit me and I saw there was a drop off on the right side where something could have fell down there, but I didn't see anything. But it was that moment where the panic overtook me. You can't even walk outside now. You can't not, I guess you can, but I was by myself. I was in a new place, a new new park there was no one else on the trail and i smelled rotting flesh and it could have been a person but did i go did my curiosity take me up there did i say you know if that's a dead person up there that could be missing for a

while maybe i should go up there check it out and report it if that's the case did i do that no i did not i made the assumption it was probably an animal. If it was a dead body, I couldn't help that dead body. And if it was an animal, I didn't want to be next to be taken down by whatever killed that one. So without even doing any exploration, I ran down the hill in a panic, and then that panic spread,

and I didn't know if I was going to get just jumped by a mountain lion or just the the guy with the knife in the bushes there was the the sort of broad mountain lion guy in the bushes with a knife panic that one gets on a hike i turned my my uh my music off and i'm just scrambling down this hill and something must have clicked my music on in my pocket because elvis costello's beyond belief just started out of nowhere. And I screamed out loud, like, I don't want to say a little girl because I don't want, I don't want to be negative about little girls. I screamed out loud, like a man who screams like you would think a woman might. Is that diplomatic enough? And then I realized it was a song and then I turned the song

off and then I just caught my breath, put the shuffle on and then Shine a Light by Spiritualized came on as I walked in to the setting sun out of the hike. So it had a happy ending, an uplifting ending as a matter of fact, though there was a lot of shame involved in the hike itself. So that was an experience and then i went to another new experience i wanted to see if i could get fish for my cats my cats have been enjoying these freeze-dried minnows that i bought at the pet store for too much money and i thought can i just get that at some sort of asian supermarket in bulk don't they have freeze-dried fish, minnows that the Asians use in their meals? And I've seen that, I think.

I think I've seen that in Chinatown. I know there's this place called the Seafood Market, I think. It's right over here in Eagle Rock. I believe it's a Filipino market. But I went in there, and you just have that experience. They just had tons of fish, man, All kinds of whole fish, fish heads. They had oysters and clams. They had things in tanks.

They had a couple of bins of unfrozen anchovies and smelts. They had produce I had not seen before. It was just all filled with Filipino people and I think some people from Thailand. And all the products seemed different. And it was exciting. That is the exciting thing about America is to go into a market that services a different community than you're from and go, oh, my God, look at this thing. Oh, Jesus. Maybe I should buy a durian. Maybe maybe I need to try one of these.

Look at the size of this thing. You open it up and it smells horrible, but it's really sweet. I've tried one. So I got some anchovies for the cats. They just scooped a big handful of raw anchovies, brought them back to three cats. None of them wanted anything to do with any of it. Monkey kicked it around, spreading the dead fish goo everywhere, stinking it up. So I those away spent a dollar threw it away but i did get to go the filipino market that's my point anyway i made a mistake this is a correction a couple weeks ago i mentioned being at the sag awards and running into chris sullivan from this is us uh who was standing about 10 feet away from Robert De Niro, who was sitting

down talking to somebody else. And I doubled back because I wanted to try to say hi to Robert De Niro. I didn't really want to, but I thought I should because I was going to pass up the opportunity because I didn't know what to say. And I walked back and I saw a guy who I thought it was Chris Sullivan. And I introduced myself and then I asked him if he was waiting to talk to De Niro or if he was just standing here. By coincidence, he goes, hey, this guy, he's waiting to talk to De Niro. I'm not getting online. Yeah, but it was just interesting seeing someone. I knew that that was what he was doing.

But what I didn't know was that wasn't Chris Sullivan. It was Mike Houston from Orange is the New Black. That wasn't Chris Sullivan. It was Mike Houston from Orange is the New Black. So I contrived something there because they both, I think they're both bearded and maybe lacking in the hair department. But nonetheless, I wanted to correct it because Mike Houston brought it to my attention on Twitter. And it was Mike Houston, not Chris Sullivan. And he didn't get to talk to him.

That's the end of that story. and he didn't get to talk to him. That's the end of that story. Now, Tracy Letts, folks, he's in Lady Bird and The Post, both of which are in theaters now. He's also a playwright, many plays. He's been in many movies and we'll talk about that.

But we also talk about talking to people or me talking to people at award shows and that goes somewhere. All right, this is me and Tracy Letts. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Be honest. When was the last time you thought

about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. How you doing, Tracy?

I'm good, Mark. How are you? Are you adjusting'm good, Mark. How are you? Are you adjusting? Yeah, sure. Where's all your staff? There's no staff. Where were you led to believe? Did you just show up blindly?

You had no idea what you were getting into? I knew that you ran a podcast out of your home in... In Highland Park? Somewhere in... In L.A.? Somewhere somewhere that's all you knew yeah i i used to i usually have a guy but you know there's no necessity for the guy because they're to be honest with you i never know who's coming with who and i and there's no place to put people so i i used to have a guy just to make sure that people didn't start going through my stuff so in the house but there's nothing in the house anymore so oh i see yeah so

it's just me the garage remains intact because i haven't i haven't moved yet i don't know if it's nostalgia or or i'm just not willing to let go but this is the original place this is your gig yeah i'm sorry now see now i'm hurt that like you know none of the people that that you know who have been in here have called you and said oh tracy you gotta you gotta go over to mark's house nobody's done that in fact it kind of goes the opposite direction i know why hasn't mark had me on is that all my friends on did you say that yeah sure i've been trying to i tried to get you on a long time ago but i'm a fan of yours i you know it goes back i like what you do i feel like i know you i don't know why that is. You're one of those people. We're roughly the same age. We are.

Did you? We've had a long, slow, steady climb. I think you've got a Pulitzer. So there's a big difference in our success rate. I'm hosting a podcast out of my garage and you have a Pulitzer. Yeah, but you're on like three television shows. Yeah, but you're in movies. I mean just i'm not going to do this with you because because you you won you won that one you you're you're but but you know we would took

different directions yeah yeah we did but we're not ours on a on geographical level we grew up in uh i grew up in new mexico so part of my state, I think, hits the tip of your state, Oklahoma. Isn't the panhandle, doesn't that hit the corner of New Mexico, maybe? See, that's Western Oklahoma. That's not mine. That's not my beat. It's totally different. No one knows what's going on in Western Oklahoma.

No, Western Oklahoma is the flat desert part. Eastern Oklahoma, where I come from. The metropolis eastern oklahoma rolling hills yeah oh that's right that's right so you did grow up there the whole the whole yeah i was born in tulsa and grew up in uh durant oklahoma a small town in southeastern oklahoma so now i you know my sense my sense of Oklahoma is not great. Yeah. And I... I get that. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know what yours is, but I mean, how did you avoid the pitfalls of Oklahoma?

Well, I didn't avoid them. I left. That's how I avoided them. I left. But, you know, the truth is that my folks were academics. My folks were English teachers, and I grew up around English teachers and English departments. And, yeah, absolutely. They were teachers at the school?

They taught at a small state college in southeastern Oklahoma called Southeastern Oklahoma State University. Right. That's where they taught. But growing up, my dad was still pursuing his academic career so we spent a couple years in champaign as he was getting his illinois advanced degree yeah yeah he uh and uh let's see where else uh cape girardeau missouri he taught at southeast missouri state for a couple years and uh a year in copenhagen he was a fulbright scholar how old are you and when you were in Copenhagen? Just born.

Oh, so no recollection. Yeah. No imprint. The folks who were from Oklahoma were getting a little culture themselves. Yeah. Are both your parents from Oklahoma? Yeah, they both were. Yeah.

Wow. I just associate it with cowboys and genocide. Yeah. Well, the roots of the state, there are actually great progressive roots in Oklahoma. Good. Woody Guthrie's from Oklahoma. Right.

Will Rogers is from Oklahoma. I mean. Yeah. You know, there's. I know. I'm being poorly judgmental. It's just, you know, it's the wrong thing. I've been to Oklahoma City.

I know Wayne Coyne, who is the lead singer of the Flaming Lips. Sure. He's sort of a fixture there. Interesting guy. He seems like he's got an interesting world there. I'm not saying that it's not devoid of anything. I just don't. I rarely meet people from Oklahoma.

Well, I did leave. Yeah. I left a long time ago. I know. I know. But it's like in you, though, isn't it? Sure. Yeah.

I mean, you can see it in the Osage County play. You know, that's what Oklahoma is to you. Yeah. That's true. It doesn't end well. It does not end well. That's true. Absolutely.

So what kind of, your mother was a- We're in it. We're doing this. We're in the interview. Yeah. What did you think was happening? I don't know. It was just so seamless from, you know, stepping into the garage to suddenly talking about Oklahoma. You just realized it?

That's why I'm known for it. I'm known for this. You've been doing this a long time, haven't you? Yeah. Damn, you're a pro. I had the thing running and everything. Turned it on earlier. We're going.

But, like, so, well, obviously, it had a lot to do with your parents. Like if you had grown up, you know, in a rodeo town, it would have been a different life for you. That's right. That was not what happened. The folks were, they were readers. Yeah. The house was filled with books.

But your mom was a writer, right? She was. Both the folks had second careers after teaching school. My mom was a writer and pursuing that for a long time while she was still teaching school. And then she got a book published, and then Oprah picked it up for her book club. Life changer. And it was a life changer. She's a best-selling author.

Retired from teaching school. My dad took early retirement and followed me into acting. I had taken up acting at that point. He'd always been an amateur actor in community theater and college theater, but he started pursuing it professionally in his 50s and made about 40 films and TV shows. Worked quite a bit. Really? Yeah.

You cast him, right? I did eventually, but I mean, he had already had quite a career by that point. I mean, he's in stuff you would know, like Cast Away. Yeah. I know you only think of Tom Hanks on the island, but- No, he was on the plane? he's in stuff you would know like cast away yeah i know you only think of tom hanks on the island but no he was on the plane he's in the uh there's a there's a scene like a christmas dinner thanksgiving dinner or something he's the patriarch at the head of the table and oh really yeah he did played a lot of share after after after tom hanks comes home maybe even before he goes like the last time he sees ellen hunt so wait so your dad's out here in Hollywood? Well, they've both passed away.

Both folks have passed away. But dad, he was doing, you know, they were making a lot of movies and TV shows in Texas at the time. So he would drive down to Austin and Dallas, Houston, drive all over the place to go to these auditions and book jobs. He did it. Yeah, he did. He became like a two or three line character actor he did or or even sometimes a little more than yeah yeah oh that's he was really good yeah i mean i wouldn't put him in osage if he wasn't really good he was in the original cast of that

yeah yeah and was he in the film too he's not in the film that was sam shepherd played his part that's correct sam shepherd you like sam shepherd sure like Sam Shepard. Sure. Yeah. All right. So we'll get back to Shepard because I felt like there was like I try to figure out like when I was in college or when I was watching plays and thinking about writing plays and being in plays myself, I think we might have had the same trajectory had I not taken the easier route and just being funny for people. Like, had I had the confidence.

Because stand-up, that's a real easy route. Yeah, but it's very impulsive. You know, you have a lot of control. It's very immediate. And you don't have to do much work if you do it right. Right? But to write a play, you've got to believe that. I thought we weren't going to compare like this, Mark.

No, we're not. No, I've already admitted we have both staggered blindly from one gig to the next for our entire adult lives and we're both nominated for SAG Awards I'll meet you there I did it I got a nomination

are you nominated for a SAG Award? you're there tomorrow night what are you nominated for? I'm best male in a comedy for Glow fantastic that's fantastic it came to me late the acting thing What are you nominated for? For my Best Male in a Comedy for Glow. Fantastic. Yeah. That's fantastic.

It came to me late, the acting thing. It was always there, but it was never. That's great. Are you going to win? I don't think so. I find that hard to believe that this late in the game. You think you've got a chance. Because if you didn't think you had a chance, your answer would have been, no fucking am i going to win that well i you know i i'm trying to be transparent here and my ego would like to think i could win but i don't know if i can win i'm up against the will and grace guy

and larry david and write a speech yeah yeah why don't we do it together i do you have to thank like i you know do you thank your agents for everything i I thought maybe I'd just thank the writers and my co-stars and talk about, like, I'm happy I bought a suit. Acknowledge the other nominees. Oh. Yeah. Good one. Yeah.

I'll write that down. Hey, you know. You got to write it, though. These people who get up and say, you know, I didn't think I could win, so I didn't write anything. It's like, well, you put on the fucking suit. Right. You stood in the line with everybody.

Yeah. You sat at the table. Yeah, you should have put. you really didn't think there was a possibility throw a couple things together have you written something no because we're nominated for ensemble so i wouldn't be the one talk i'm nominated for that too for glow nice yeah but we're in different categories right we won't be oh yeah because you're a tv oh okay yeah fine you Yeah, because yours is TV. Oh, okay. Yeah, fine. You had to find a way. Just shut me down. All right. We're on the same level there for a minute. And now I'm on television. I've seen you on television. You like television.

Yeah, I'm on TV too. Sure. But let's get back to my original point, which was you're doing the noble, literate, creative pursuit. You're a playwright. Yeah, no, it wasn't like that. I went to Chicago. How old?

20 years old. And now what had you done before then, acting-wise? I had gone to Dallas for a couple of years with my little headshot and resume trying to get work. That was the, that was, that was, did someone misdirect you? Did you? Well, it was close to home. I want to be an actor. I'm going to Dallas. It was the that was that was did someone misdirect you did your well it's close to home i want to be an actor i'm going to dallas it was 100 miles from home i could go home on the weekends and my mom would do my laundry so this is before you're like 20 this is

in your late teens you go to dallas i didn't go to college i went to dallas headshot and resume and tried to tried to work dallas man i got no sense of that time but that was like so it still had a profile had some money still dallas at that time in the 80s they made a lot of movies and tv shows in dallas they were touting it as the third coast they brought this big goddamn soundstage out at las colinas and every year there was a places in the heart or uh right they must have they must have given tax break tender mercies every year that kind of stuff was a great movie that is yeah there were some great stuff happening there so i went there but you know i didn't work i couldn't get arrested i worked in the theater a little bit

fringe theater in dallas like what do really fringe theater in dallas like black box theater doing doing what doing beckett when you coming back red rider by mark medoff uh-huh uh and uh When You Coming Back, Red Rider by Mark Medoff. Uh-huh. And The Glass Menagerie at Mesquite Community Theater. Ooh. How was that production? It was all right.

Yeah? But you had no training at that time? No, no, no. You're just winging it? Pretty much. I mean, I had done a year. When I was a senior in high school school we could take classes at the college where my folks taught so we did that did some shows right but yeah pretty much winging it

so Dallas didn't no show business dreams didn't pan out in Dallas no and girlfriend of mine moved to Chicago and I didn't take the cue so I followed her up to Chicago that's always what I'm sure it's what she wanted I'm sure she was thrilled.

Like, Oh, Tracy strange. We're no longer together, but I followed her up to Chicago. That's doctor. I knew that guy. That's what you'll be saying at the award show.

When she's watching it on TV, that's that guy. Is that, do you know her still? Uh, I know who she is, but we don't keep in touch not since the restraining order so i went to chicago i fell in love with the city i fell in

love with the theater scene in chicago i'd never seen anything like it how did you what how did it start because like i just talked to laurie like it's sort of been a mystery to me how steppenwolf started you know this mythic place of you know anger and in creativity and uh you know and then like when i heard that you were kind of part of that i'm like well that makes sense he's a furious man that writes dark things and uh but i never got the whole history that you know that they were just kids but you were later a little later i'm later they're all All those kids are about 10 years older than me. So when you get there, do you seek that out? Are you just like, I'm in Chicago.

Was it like, do I go to Second City and watch the clowns or do I go watch the serious shit? That's right. It's running around auditioning for different theaters. There's a great theater culture there. There's a great- Great life show culture. Oh my God.

Yeah, there's 200 storefront theaters and they're all doing great, interesting work, and they're all doing it for the right reasons. Yeah. Nobody's doing it to get famous. So this is the late 80s? Yeah. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. Vital. Still vital. And the first show I did in Chicago was The Glass Menagerie. Again. Again. You already knew the lines. Same part?

Same part. Oh, lucky you. And at Steppenwolf. I did it at Steppenwolf it was the part of their uh you know the shows for high school kids oh so you were like 19 20 like i was early 20s so you went in for the young people auditions or pretty much uh-huh yeah crash the young people auditions and who was directing it anybody famous francis gynon yeah a very good actor who's uh who was in august osage county

the original cast he was directing it and he cast me in the show and and that began your relationship with steppenwolf yeah though i mean that was 88 yeah and i they didn't add me to the company till 2002 so there was there's a long they really made you work for it about as long as they made anybody ever work for it yeah really yeah so what do you do so what how are you persisting then so you get cast at 20 in the tennessee williams play at steppenwolf so you're you know you're like i'm in and then what happens then i i'm not in and so i have to go work other places and i worked uh you know again chicago is a great theater town and i was meeting a lot of people working up at the next theater in Evanston, which is

where I met Michael Shannon. Yeah. He was 16 and I was 25. Really? We became friends. Yeah. He was that young. I can't remember.

He was kind of intense and aggravated about things when I talked to him. I think he probably told me. That doesn't sound like mine. I know. It's crazy, right? I was totally surprised by it. I thought he'd be chipper when he came over and full of focus he's still a dear friend of mine he's a lovely guy i liked i love talking to him and i just saw him in the shape of water i thought he was great he's always great yeah he's always great yeah yeah and i saw him in your movie i

watch that because i talked to friedkin in here but we're not we're not there yet i want to know friedkin came in here and talked for two and a half hours. And he had, there was a theme to it. Oh, yeah. No, he's. There was a through line that you didn't realize until the end of the conversation that he just laid it out. It was fate. Yeah.

Fate was the through line. Billy can, Hurricane Billy. There's a reason they call him hurricane billy he's inevitable yeah yeah you just you just sit there and like oh my god and everything's connected with him you know what i mean there's a lot of connections yeah also a dear friend of mine lovely man i'm not saying anything bad about the guy is one of the best episodes is my tone coming out wrong these were i was these were impressive conversations great i got a little concerned with michael because i didn't know if he was going to fall into himself and i wouldn't know

how to fish him out but but i kept him out here well i met him when he was 16 and i was 25 he played my son even though there's nine years difference and i've always looked a little older a couple of one acts called fun and nobody by howard corder yeah at the next lab theater and uh and who was involved in that anybody who came out of that was that a theater company the next was a company in evanston for a long long time yeah and the next lab was the brainchild of a guy named dexter bullard a great theater director in chicago it was basically a classroom that he painted black, seated about 40 people. There was a lot of really good work that happened in that space.

Mike and I did Fun and Nobody, and then that's where Killer Joe started. How did that start? Well, I found myself with some downtime as an actor in Chicago, and I wrote a play. And you're 22? No, 26 at this point. 26. Yeah. So this is like years after The Glass Menagerie.

Yeah, a few years after. And you've been kicking around. Yeah. And you meet Shannon. Yeah. Kindred spirits. This guy seems to have a chip on his shoulder. Me too.

Yeah. Yeah. All that's true. Yeah. So I wrote this play. Yeah. that's true yeah so i wrote this play it's kind of horror horror noir play and uh we put it up at the next lab 40 seat house yeah and it was uh did really well it did well yeah there was an intensity to it that's for sure yeah but what inspired that i mean why that story were you

were you experimenting or did was it coming from, like, I always, because, like, I thought about, like, I didn't, you remember the movie, Joe, with Peter Boyle? Sure. It's a horrifying movie. Yeah. But your thing, the layers of it, it's all, it's pretty relentless and pretty awful. Yeah. In a good way. You ever seen it in the theater?

I have not. See, it's different. It's a different experience. Well, I want to see it. I can't wait. I didn't. Was it out here? It was, yeah. It played out here played out here when oh i don't know a few years ago look i saw osage in new york with estelle parsons does that mean anything means a lot all right it has nothing to do with whether or not you saw i want to see a high school production of killer jim

it's uh yeah it had a certain intensity and was that the first play you wrote yeah and and what now you just you just sat down and did it front you had done enough plays that you sort of knew what needed to be you know what you just winged it i don't know i had an idea for a story i read a story in the newspaper i was like oh this might make an interesting play i wonder if you could tell a story like this on stage yeah uh you know chicago we were known for pushing the envelope yeah smash mouth yeah in your face whatever the hell yeah cliche you want to use we were known for that stuff so it was written in that mold yeah the the the the sort of malkovich fury that and i was hung over chicago I was a troubled, angry person.

What were you pissed off about? I have no, don't even, I can't even answer the question. Really? I don't know, yeah. Because I thought you would be angrier. You mean now? We get old, yeah. Oh, no, no, no.

I'm very old now. 52. Yeah. I'm 54. Yeah. And I was angrier when I was younger, too. Sure. Like really bad. Yeah. Like yelling at. Yeah. And I was angrier when I was younger too. Sure. Like really bad.

Yeah. Like, you know, yelling at people. Isn't it silly? Yeah, it is silly in retrospect. Yeah. Well, I was all worked up about a lot of things that don't matter anymore. Yeah. And like I can track a lot of the anger, you know, but a lot of it, I don't know how, you

know, valid it is or what you know if it's really there's any way to empathize with my my entitled anger yeah do you find that you were angry about like real shit i i don't know i don't know i was drunk you know i i got sober about three weeks after killer joe uh. Forever? Yeah. Really? So you were fucked up? Yeah. And you got, you did it the old school way? Yeah. Oh yeah, still? Yeah. Good for you. Me too, 18 years.

24 years. Alright, see, there we go again. You know, maybe we did, we were on the same thing. Similar, similar track. It's got a jump on me on that one. I had a little more experimenting to do, as they say in the racket. So, all right, so you got sober. But, whoa, man, how do you, like, it always amazes me when people, like, hit the wall in their 20s.

Yeah. You just knew? You're like, oh, this can't go on. Yeah, yeah. I was, you know, hurting a lot of people hurting myself oh yeah yeah right just got to a point where i mean thank god you know yeah did you used to smoke too hell yeah right yeah yeah you did it all marlboro reds yeah i smoked marlboro reds among other things all out yeah and chicago is a fucking meat and drink in town yes it is it's just like it's just

like everywhere you just walk down the street and there should be signs that say cancer available here heart disease come on in it's true end your life in here yeah but i love that place so i grew to like chicago yeah it's a great city so you sobered up, and then how did that go? Did you adjust to it? It took a while, right? Yeah, it's a process. Yeah. A process I'm still in, right, after some fashion. Sure, sure, sure.

The obsession is no longer with you, but whatever you were hiding. Whatever that thing is that makes you become that person to begin with, right? You're still that person. Yeah, it's awful. Itchy, itchy soul. Aggravated. So what happens with Killer Joe? Well, everybody in town panned it except for Richard Christensen in the Chicago Tribune.

He championed it, so it became a big fat hit. Wow. And he moved it to a bigger place? We didn't immediately move it to a bigger place we ran there for about eight months and then we raised the money to take the show to the edinburgh festival in scotland yes oh you did that i did that once i'll never do it again we took it to the traverse theater yeah fringe fest and man killed yeah it just killed and from there it went to the Bush Theater in London, which is a great pub theater in London. And from there, it went to the West End and played in the West End for four months.

Well, they love American stuff. And that is so brutally fucking bloodily American. Yeah. They must have been like, this is what it's like. They loved it. And the timing of it there in the early 90s, mid-90s when it hit. The timing was really good. Who originated the role?

In the original production, Michael Shannon, Paul Dillon, a very fine actor, played Killer Joe. Shauna Franks, Holly Wontuck, Mark Nelson. And then we replacedul with a guy named eric wins and reed when we went to uh to london so that was it that you were a big playwright boom out of the gate yeah i was i didn't kind of realize that until i went to london where the show was happening i was like oh shit this is kind of blown up a little bit over here some of the real you're not even 30 and you're the real deal.

And we became friendly with a little theater company over there, the Gate Theater in Notting Hill. And they said, will you write another one for us with your same group of people? So I wrote Bug. I wrote it with Mike in mind. We, again, put together a similar kind of cast. And the play actually premiered in London at the Gay Theater. Another festering American play.

Written while sober, though. Yeah. Yeah. Odd. Yeah. Or not. No, that actually makes sense, right? Yeah.

Just coming out of it. Yeah. When everything becomes clear. I see it all now, man. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was continuing to work in theater in Chicago, and Steppenwolf came calling around this time, and they put me in a play called Picasso at the Le Panagiel by Steve Martin, which was a big hit for us, and we brought it to Los Angeles.

For Steppenwolf. Yeah. And ran at the, what is now the Geffen Playhouse. Ran there for a year. So, but they didn't let you in the company yet. You got two hit plays. You're an established playwright. You're like 30 years old.

You're sober. And they're like, you want to do a part in the clowns play? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. And who was running fucking Steppenwolf at that time?

And I'm not trying to bait you into getting retroactively aggravatedated for them making you wait i'm not actually aggravated about it i know or would you i might have been then but i don't recall it oh that's good yeah that's age that's age helping you out yeah yeah i'm not cursed with these things you people call memories yes they're the worst it's fun when they leave i they leave i've lived in several different cities when people walk up to me they're like hey mark i'm like what time frame which city give me an era if you could and did i do anything bad yeah yeah what did i do to you yeah right yeah that's always a good question so all right so you do the picasso play is that a good play that's a lot of fun yeah yeah you were a fun guy now that you're sober?

I don't know about that. Yeah. But, you know, it was a good gig. I got to, you know, join the union. I went equity with that show. Oh, you came out here. Came out here and joined the union and had my first real experience in Los Angeles. What happened that time?

Not much. No? No. Did you get an agent out here or any of that stuff? Yeah, you know, I went and I did a home improvement. See, there's the question. Now, what happened that day? Like, here you are, West End, you have two plays, Steppenwolf, you're a respected literary man.

And you're like, you go meet an agent. They're like, hey, you know, we got a thing where we can send you out on the thing. Let's see what happens. Yeah, going on home improvement. And you're like, you go meet an agent, and they're like, hey, you know, we got a thing where we can send you out on the thing. Let's see what happens. Yeah, go in on home improvement. And you're like, home improvement. And I did it. Of course you did it. Oh, is that how we're going to?

No, it was totally. I mean, it was a nice little part, and Tim Allen was a sweetheart. He was a real sweetheart to all the people on the show. It was a big show. It was a sweet paycheck for me. I'd never made a paycheck like that before. See, that's it, right? That on the show. It was a big show. It was a sweet paycheck for me. I'd never made a paycheck like that before. See, that's it, right? That's the thing.

Yeah. You did what? You had a full character arc or just an episode? I had one nice scene. I had one nice scene playing a kind of eccentric character with his wife. Uh-huh. I can't remember her name. And that got you into the union and everything?

Yeah, all that kind of stuff. And did it whet your whistle? Were you like, I'm coming out here. I'm going to do more episodic television. I didn't really think of it like that, though that's exactly what happened. I moved. I went back to Chicago and did some more plays in Chicago. And then me and my girlfriend in Chicago moved out here.

Yeah. In 97. In the fall of 97. And I did four years in Los Angeles from 97 to 2001. So you did a few plays acting in Chicago. You move out with your girlfriend who did not become your wife. She passed away. Oh, sorry.

It's all right. She passed away about four months after we moved out here. Oh, my God. Yeah. What happened? She had months after we moved out here. Oh, my God. Yeah. What happened? She had a congenital heart condition. She had a stroke. 32 years old.

We were both 32. That's horrible. Yes, it was. It is. Coming up on the 20-year anniversary of that, I'm very conscious of that anniversary. Yeah. Of her death? Yeah.

Hell yeah. Oh, my God. So you had to deal with that. Yeah. And her death? Yeah. Hell yeah. Oh, my God. So you had to deal with that. Yeah. And I stayed. I don't, you know, I stayed in Los Angeles. I came out of here. We lived out here for four months.

She died. And then I, I don't know, I just didn't, like, going back to Chicago didn't make sense to me. So I stayed. Did you have friends out here? Yeah. I had quite a few friends from Chicago who had moved out here. Oh, okay. Yeah, because this can be a very lonely, isolating place.

It's lonely and isolating even when you have friends out here. Yeah. So you're dealing with this shock and grief and mortality thing? Yeah. Oh, my God. So I come out here and I did more of that stuff. I did a Seinfeld episode. I'm in the Festivus episode of Seinfeld.

Right. I did Profiler. Yeah. I did, you know, the district. You're working. You're getting little parts. I'm getting little parts. Doing little guest spots.

And like, who are your friends? Were you surrounded by successful people when you were out here? I was surrounded by really talented people, some of whom were working, some not. But no names that are going to make you go, wow. I mean, Mike was starting to work quite a bit as an actor, though certainly I don't think people would have recognized him down the street. To me, there's something impressive yet heartbreaking about you know the the evolution of it you know you both ended up great you know but to think of like you know like you and michael shannon people who who do very you know specific and amazing work uh you

kind of like hitting the fucking you know the the the streets that to go do little bit parts i'm glad you made it out. I'm glad you got to where you got. Thanks. I mean- Nick Offerman, too. I mentioned him only because he's been on your show. Nick, that little production of Killer Joe in the next lab, Nick built the set.

He likes to build things, man. Nick built the trailer. He's got a whole shop out here. Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah, he makes- He's a very talented guy. He likes making furniture. I think that's what he does now oh my i don't know if he's i think he's out of the business well i think it might be he might be just making furniture

and i tell you tracy when i hear stories like that i'm like good for you yeah no shit you got out without the shame and you're okay with yourself. You got out and you don't, you're not, you don't, you don't consider yourself a failure. Congratulations. You did it. You did it. That's how I feel sometimes. So, well, so what broke you out here?

I mean, what, because, you know, this is, this is a four year period of time in between, you know, writing two great plays and then you do a seinfeld a profiler a home improvement you experience a horrendous loss and uh what was it the the what made you go right to be with your prize winning play well a couple of different things i i got in another relationship that went south uh you know which is not you didn't drink either did you i didn't drink that see that's what we forgot that part that must have helped you get through i didn't drink either, did you? I didn't drink. See, that's what... We forgot that part. That must have helped you get through.

I didn't drink. So I got in a relationship that also went south. And at the same time, I was just finding that those gigs I was doing, they weren't exactly... Fulfilling. They weren't feeding the soul. Imagine. I had somebody... There was a show they made out of here, you might recall it, called VIP with Pamela Anderson.

Huh. I kind of recall. I don't know what it was. Follow up to Baywatch. Yeah. I don't know. Pamela Anderson was a spy or assassin or some shit. Right.

And this thing was very popular, not in this country. Right? It's popular elsewhere. Probably everywhere elsewhere. So the residuals were great. Yeah. If you got a VIP, I had buddies who if they booked a VIP, it was like that thing paid off like a slot machine.

And you were on it? I was not. I had a couple of buddies who booked it. Yeah. And I got jealous of them. Yeah. And that was the moment where I went, oh, fuck. VIP.

Yeah. It was never supposed to be about this. VIP. Yeah. It was never supposed to be about this. Right. So when you heard they got it, you're like, fuck, man. Yeah. How'd you get that? And you're like, what's happened? Yeah.

Yeah. I had to go ride a Pulitzer Prize winning play. So I got in my car and I drove back to Chicago. Yeah. The first play I did when I got back was a revival of Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross. Oh, that's great. It was a great play. Which guy did you play?

I played Williamson, who runs the office. Oh, yeah, yeah. Spacey plays him in the movie. Yeah, right, right. Which I've never seen. Pasquazy, you know Pasquazy, you guys. He played Ricky Roma. It was a great production.

Oh, wow, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of my re-entry into Chicago, 2001. Were they all happy you were great. Yeah. Yeah. And that was kind of my re-entry into Chicago, 2001. Were they all happy you were back? Yeah. Like, that's the great thing about those, like, about cities like Austin and Chicago. When people come back battered from LA or Nashville, they're like, come on.

Yeah. Have a seat. Welcome to the club. That's exactly right. Welcome home. And in fact, a lot of my friends were like, why'd you come back? Seemed like you were doing pretty good out there. Like, no, no, no.

VIP. Could tell you the story, the VIP story. So Steppenwolf asked me to join the company. Oh. A lot of their people had left, right? A lot of that original group, they had all left for Los Angeles and New York. Did they set it up like that? Is that how they offered you the job?

Hey, we're at it, guys. Kind of. Because it came with a condition when they added me. They said, we want you to stay in town. And I said, okay, I'm not looking to leave. Oh, that's great. So they said, stay here in Chicago and we'll put you in the company. I said, great.

What does it mean to be in the company? Does that mean that they will give you work consistently? Yeah. Basically, like yeah basically like you know we're gonna find plays for you to do and keep you eating and you know commit to staying here you'll you'll be as involved as you want to be and who was running it then martha levy uh-huh the late martha levy passed away uh and this last year oh uh was this after they moved to the bigger space obviously yeah now did you ever start a theater troupe were you did you ever start a group yeah i started a couple of groups what were they were small short-lived uh a little a company called point theater company in chicago and also a little improv group i didn't start it i was part of an improv group. I didn't start it. I was part of an improv group there called Bang Bang with Michael Shannon and Paul Dillon

and a lot of other people. Yeah. Chicago people. I think that, wasn't Amy Pates in that? Amy. Amy Peets. Peets, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, she was on an episode of my show. She did a lot of work out here. She did. She's very good. Yeah, she did an episode of Marin. However, she's great. Yeah, she is. Pete's, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she was on an episode of my show. She did a lot of work out here. She did. She's very good. Yeah, she did an episode of Marin. However, she's great. Yeah, she is. Alright, so those didn't stick, obviously. You did,

but it was an improv. So what kind of improv? Like comedy improv? We were, well, I suppose, yeah, though we were all people from the theater. We were trying to bring some of our theater stuff into the world of improvisation. But not like Second City. Oh, really?

Yeah. So improvs would be derailed with crying and violence? Yes. Yes. That's a pretty good description. That's how we're going to do comedy? I can say that certainly some of the worst and some of the best things I've ever seen in a theater

took place while doing. But improv is pretty freeing though. It's got to be helpful. I mean, you're learning how to act during through all this too. You're winging it. Yeah. You weren't ever given any real guidance. Were you?

Right. And then when I went back in 2001, Dave and TJ started up, you know, David Pasquazy and TJ Jagodowski, they started their two man improv show. Some of the best improv I've ever some of the best improv i've ever seen the best improv i've ever seen in my life and occasionally they would ask me to come and

sit in with them and it was great for an improv jam yeah for one of they just get bored right they'd be like we're bored can you come and you like improvving i i love it with those guys because they're so fucking good it's like you can't fuck it up yeah yeah i could only fuck it up so bad right but but it made it amazes me sort of like uh like because when i talked to lori about steppenwolf none of them had any there was no guru on you know like like all those improvisers in in chicago had del close around right right but like with steppenwolf and it seems with you that you know you sort of found your way into the acting gig yeah it wasn't like there was no guru there was no buddha there was no this is how you do it right that's kind of fascinating that's right to fascinate you or do you think you cheated

cheated no I mean no in the sense that like you know there's a real racket in in training you know what I mean that right that that usually whether it's a teacher or somebody that gave you some tips. Oh, I think training probably would have given me so many shortcuts that I had to take the long way around to figure out. You know, I don't knock training just because I didn't have it. Right. Yeah. But no, there was no guru necessarily. I mean, what there was, there were a lot of great actors around me.

Right. And we were all challenging each other. Right. You know, everybody was challenging each other to up your game. Yes. That was true of Chicago then. It's true of Chicago now. It's the second time I've heard it.

You know, it's like that's what it was. Yeah. It's like, what do you got? Yeah. Let's go. That's right. And so now you're a member of Steppenwolf. I knew Del, by the way.

I did. He stepped into Picasso at the La Panagia for a while. I got a chance to do the show with Del for a while. Yeah. go that's right and sorry so now you remember steppenwolf i knew dell by the way i did he stepped into picasso at the la panagiel for a while i got a chance to do the show with dell for yeah pick his brain about you know what do you learn stories and stuff no he's just a lot of fun yeah i have no sense of him i like i had to learn about that whole scene like i come from the stand up uh history so like through this show and you know, because there's been a big shift in comedy and show business out of stand-up centric shows

to sort of like, you know, sketch performers and Chicago kind of, you know, overtook New York in terms of its importance in modern comedy history. Well, it was always sort of there, you know, with SNL

and the Lampoon people, but whatever. But I didn't know much about it. And this Del Close, he was a real Buddha,ha that guy yeah he really was so you're in steppenwolf now so you're doing you're working you're in chicago and so now not drinking as a playwright i'd had two shows yeah and i wrote a third show man from nebraska it was called and so suddenly i had a little bigger uh what was that one about i don't know that play man from nebraska is a play about a middle-aged guy from nebraska who wakes up he's an insurance salesman kind of a boring guy

wakes up in the middle of the night and realizes he doesn't believe in god starts a kind of uh leaves home and looks for himself a little bit that's what it was about and uh it was 2003 and it was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. Wow. They tell you that, huh? Yeah. You know what? They don't tell you before you lose it.

Right. They call you, and they say, congratulations, you lost. Yeah. It was close, man. It was close. I didn't even know I was up for it. Yeah, yeah. Who won that year? I know this.

I Am My Own Wife. Uh-huh. Yeah. Who wrote that? Doug Wright. Uh-huh. Yeah. Who wrote that? Doug Wright. Uh-huh. Very gifted playwright from Dallas, Texas. Wow.

Yeah. So you were like, I should have stayed in Dallas. I knew I shouldn't have left Dallas. And then, so I was doing two or three shows a year in Chicago. Acting. I mean, you know, Mark, when I left Los Angeles and went back to Chicago, I really took a vow of poverty, right? I knew what I had left in Chicago.

You can't make any money in Chicago. Yeah. And so I knew I was going back to act in the theater. I knew I was giving up on that big VIP money. And that stature. But it was just like, I was so so much happier i had been so much happier in chicago doing plays oh this was out of los angeles yes this is a soul-crushing dump just a fucking soul-crushing spiritual garbage hole

anyone that's one way to say it if you don't have to stay here Jesus get out just filled with people rationalizing that family where all the kids are chained up is that near here? it's right across the street didn't you see that house?

I knew those kids I knew there was something wrong did you read that the pets were really well fed? All the dogs were really well fed. Yeah. I think it's time for a new play. That's too upsetting. That's too upsetting?

Have you seen Killer Joe? So, and then I wrote August Osage County, which changed my life, which was. Now, when you're doing that, writing that great play, because to me, I felt the presence of O'Neill, Tennessee Williams, Sam Shepard a little bit in the sense of what you were embarking on, classic family tragedy, really, right? Yeah. Now, who were your models?

It must have taken a certain amount of time and structure and decision making and running bits and pieces. What's the process of writing a Pulitzer Prize winning play like that? It's long, slow process. Did I name any of your heroes? You named them all. I mean, they are all my heroes. You know, it's based on a true story. My grandfather committed suicide by drowning when I was 10 years old.

Yeah. My grandmother descended into years of downer addiction. Yeah. You know, put my mother especially, but my whole family through hell. So it's based very much on that, you know, something that had stuck with me for 30 years. Right? Yeah. I mean, your grandfather drowns himself. Did you know him? Yeah. with me for 30 years right i mean your grandfather

drowns himself did you know him yeah i knew him well uh you know when i first started writing it i called my dad to ask him some some details i just had forgotten a lot of the stuff you know i was 10 years old right and he he was very helpful with all that and then he said why are you writing about this and i said well it seems like the stuff of drama and uh the events from that time have haunted me for 30 years and he said they have never occurred to her yeah but it's wild right when your grandfather ends his own life and you know that at 10 yeah that's kind of, you know, that's a big hole. Well, one of the things that happens in August of Central County, right, is parents take their eye off the ball.

Yeah, right. You know, my folks were, they were great parents. I loved my folks. We were very close. But that was a time when, you know, circumstances being what they are, they probably took their eye off the ball. Of parenting? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say they took their eye off the ball of parenting yeah yeah yeah i would say they took

their eye off the ball you gotta walk a kid through that why grandpa yeah killed himself yeah i mean just the just the the mental images of my grandfather underwater you know it was so it's such a lonely way to die you know just floating there yeah in the middle of the night takes a boat out in the middle of the night and jumps into the middle of the fucking lake in the middle of the night. But with no weights on him or nothing? Yeah, just chooses not to swim. I don't know.

Wow. Yeah. That's commitment. Yeah. And now, is the emotional elements and relationship dynamics, are they sort of true to life from that play? elements and relationship dynamics are they sort of true to life from that place you know some of it's created some of it's borrowed some of it's from real life and yeah the process of putting all that together is long slow painstaking kind of boring actually i mean boring to describe

but did you have a sense of like you obviously had a sense of structure sure from doing plays sure you know like you know act breaks and you know this and you knew you were writing a big three act thing yeah like you know with a lot of heaviness well i had the story yeah and then the question becomes what's the right container for that story yeah it's like oh the big american family drama is the right container for that story right going back to o'neill and yeah and tennessee williams yeah buried child kind of all that stuff yeah the dad stuff all that stuff and you know there are little reflections of those plays throughout augustage County and other stuff too. Right. That's all intentional.

I hope it is. Somebody told me once I had stolen something from The Little Foxes by Lillian Hellman. I had never even read The Little Foxes. It's funny how people are just like, you know, the talentless scavenge for reasons to attack people with talent. Yeah, well. It's what they do. yeah i i heard someone use that word you think you're so smart it's like what do you do don't worry about me i did a thing once so well that's like because it was a it was a mind-blowing thing. I didn't really feel like it was, you know, hacking off anybody else. I thought it was its own thing and that it was this horrible family drama.

But I could feel that arc, the way that, you know, the way it ends with, what is it? Just two characters. Yeah. After you just subtract people. Yeah. One way or the other people are subtracted that there's that weird emotional

desolation it ends with an indigenous person right? yeah that's where it ends look what you did you came and went well I mean with Shepard in the movie, you wrote the script for the movie?

I did. Did you have anything to do with casting? No. No. I mean, you know. Were you on set? I was there for the table read. I was there first day.

Did you talk to Sam? Had you talked to Sam before? I had never talked to Sam before. It was the only day I ever spent with Sam. And I have to say that at the table read, it was the only day i ever spent with sam and i have to say that at the table read he was the only one i was nervous about oh yeah yeah because your dad had belated yeah and i wasn't i just nervous to be around him i mean i wasn't starstruck by merrill or you know right mr clooney or well you've been through some shit by now you know yeah yeah but

sam i was sam could have hurt me, right? Yeah. If Sam had said the wrong thing at the wrong moment, he would have hurt me. And he didn't do that. In fact, in the moment that he might have done that, he actually did the right thing and said some really lovely, gracious things about my piece in front of everybody. It was like, I'll never forget that. I'll never forget him for that.

He could have hurt you yeah that's right yeah by not saying anything sure i mean that would have hurt in a way there's a lot of projection could have happened you you were just a vulnerable white you no matter what you could have done to defend yourself there was nothing you could have done it was you just yeah and it worked out right oh thank god yeah I had a hard time going through that story just now. I'm all choked up, but it worked out. Holy shit. So he liked the piece.

He did like the piece. Yeah, he liked it a lot. He got kind of sparse later in terms of his writing. Yeah, I know. And when he died, you look at the list and it's like, it's over 50 plays. So many. I've written nine. What's holding you up?

It's hard. It's fucking hard. And acting is easier. Well, sometimes, oftentimes. Unless you're doing something really hard, yes, acting's easy. But I thought the film was good. I thought they did a good job with it.

Who directed that? John Wells. Did you like thought the film was good. I thought they did a good job with it. Who directed that? John Wells. Did you like it? It was complicated. It was complicated. But it wasn't a disaster. No, it wasn't a disaster. It's always going to be difficult.

It's out there. I'm glad it's out there. But I had a hard time with the producers. I had a hard time with Harvey. Oh, you worked with him? Well, I wouldn't call it that. Yeah. Yeah, he was on the project.

Yeah, I can't imagine what it would be like to have a play become a movie. It shouldn't happen. It really shouldn't happen. Well, then why'd you let Friedkin do two of them? Well, you know, I'll tell you why. Because I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma. And I didn't have access to A Streetcar Named Desireamed Desire and Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf or Shakespeare. Right.

My access to that shit was through the movies. Yeah. I wouldn't have been able to see that stuff. Yeah. And so, you know, there's some kid in southeastern Oklahoma right now who's, you know, home watching Killer Joe. Yeah. And it speaks to him. Right.

That's true. And Bug in August, Osage County. They can't afford to go to New York and pay $100 for a theater ticket to see it on Broadway. Or wait for it even to come locally. That's right. And yeah, Killer Joe and Bug are not playing locally in southeastern Oklahoma. And no one's doing them in high school. So that's why.

I've always felt like it's not the same experience. Right. When I say it's complicated, that for me is really the... Right. That's why it's complicated. Because I don't think films should be made out of plays. Or they can't do what theater does. No.

But I thought that Friedkin knew that I think he respected it you know and I think he tried to do something they're William Friedkin movies yeah you know which is great I'm thrilled that there are a couple of William Friedkin movies based on my plays I'm thrilled about that

they're not the play they're all these movies yeah and like Altman tried to do that he tried to do it in a way that would honor the theater and it never quite works. It doesn't work. Yeah. The experience is different. Yeah. In a theater, you have to lean forward in your seat.

You have to pay attention. You have to tune your ear. Yeah. And shit might happen. Done studies recently that show that audiences' hearts are actually syncing up during live plays. Really? Is that true? Yes, that's true.

That's an actual thing. Huh. There's something about the group experience watching a play that's very different than watching them. There's a reason you can watch a movie in your basement or your, you know. There's a reason you can eat popcorn and watch a movie. You can't eat popcorn and watch a movie in your basement or your you know there's a reason you can eat popcorn and watch a movie you can't eat popcorn and watch a play no because i would be mad at you well it also just requires a certain investment on yeah i'm i'm fascinating i don't go to enough but when i do i'm always like immediately emotionally all jangled yeah because like the whole space of it

they can see people spitting and feeling breathing and hear the feet dragging on the boards. Isn't it fantastic? Yeah. It's fantastic. It's great. And it's like, it shouldn't be, it should be required. Not like, you know, is there, is it good? Is it a good production of that?

Yeah. Who's in it? Oh, I haven't seen him in 20 years. From TV. Yeah. Who's in it? Oh, I haven't seen him in 20 years. From TV? Right. But, so you're working

on a play? What? Are you working on writing one? Right now? Yeah. I've had three plays come out in the last two years.

What are you yelling at me for? I didn't know that. I'm not yelling. I got a microphone plays come out in the last two years. What are you yelling at me for? I didn't know that. I'm not yelling. I got a microphone. It's my mistake. It's my mistake. You've had three plays come out in the last three years. New ones.

Yeah. And I missed them. Well, they haven't been to New York. They've only been in Chicago, where I still live and where I'm still a member of Steppenwolf Theater. So are they done? Are you workshopping? Are they going to Broadway? They're're done they were at four productions uh the first of those three is called mary page marlo yeah it is going to be at second stage theater in new york this summer oh good the second of

those places called linda vista and i think it's going to be here in los angeles about a year yeah the third of those places called the minutes and we're trying to get it to Broadway. We're not there yet, but we're trying. So, like, that's amazing. So you're a playwright. You keep going. I've been a playwright for a long time, man. I know that, dude, but I see you in movies.

You're funny. You're doing your thing. You know, you're doing some comedy. You're doing some serious. You're mixing it up. Becoming an American character actor. Now we have to get back to the timeline. So August Osage County happens.

And then I wrote Superior Donuts, which was also on. I auditioned for that TV show. Yeah. Did you audition for the TV show? Yeah, I didn't quite. I turned it down. Oh, you turned it down. Yeah.

They wanted me to read for Judd's part. And I'm like, I'm too young to be this guy. And it's like, it doesn't seem like a role for me. You know, like I want to be the cranky Jewish bigot. You know. I don't have anything to do with the TV show. I know, I know, I know. I'm sure the play was better.

The play is different. Okay. Diplomatic, very diplomatic. Okay, go ahead. So, Superior Donuts. And then I acted in a production of who's afraid of virginia wolf at steppenwolf that went to broadway it probably doesn't go to broadway without august osage county but because of august i don't know there was some god and you you you

must have killed in that part so i did that it's It's a great part. It's a great part. And it was a terrific production play. Yeah. And you won Tony, right? I did. That's great. And then from that's why I started doing all this film and TV. Alex Gonza, who created Homeland, saw me on Broadway.

He asked me to do Homeland. Yeah. That was good, though. You probably had a little meat to it, didn't you? I did a couple of seasons of Homeland. Yeah. And that's kind of led to all this other shit i've been doing yeah but you like it i'm having a time of my life it's fantastic you're talking about a guy who couldn't get on vip that's fantastic it all comes around it's fantastic i but i quit acting on stage. That's why I've had time to write plays and be in movies and TV shows.

Because I've acted on stage eight shows a week, three shows a year for 30 fucking years. You know? Yeah. So you don't do it anymore? It's a conscious decision? I haven't done it in about four years. Because of the time commitment or just because it's too exhausting or what? It's too hard.

It's too, yeah, it's hard and exhausting and just beats you up. Yeah. It's so interesting to me that like, because you have like, you're in a lot of stuff right now. I just watched a season opener of Divorce. You were very funny in that show. Thank you. This season, that was funny. Funny, it's a funny character.

I remember you in the elvis movie that was sort of an interesting movie and you were not kind of funny yeah and then don't knock yourself out no no no because it's one of those movies where it's like is this a comedy what are we doing here mike called me and asked me to come down and do that thing no i like the movie yeah but like i wouldn't call it a comedic part. There's beats to it. Do you know what I mean? I thought you were great in it, but the movie's one of those in-between movies.

Right? Kind of. I mean, it is a comedy in a way. Yeah. But then the post, that's not a comedic part. That was a great part. Serious. Like, what I'm doing for my audience, Tracy, is establishing you as a character actor with a lot of range. I see.

You're doing an excellent job. I'm not belittling you. It's clear this is not your first time in the garage. And The Lovers, I like that movie, too. Thanks. He's an interesting director, and that was an interesting movie. I loved it. You had a good time loved it yeah you had a

good time right i had a great time and uh i've been having a great time doing all of this and christine too i saw that movie i don't think anyone saw that movie nobody saw it great movie because it's devastating it is devastating it's really good it was like i watched it on a plane and i wanted to i want it out. Yeah. I wanted off the plane. Yeah. It's a tough film, but really good. And that was a serious role. That wasn't a fuck around role. Yeah.

She's a good actress. She's a great actress. Interesting movie, but there was no way that, you know, put yourself through that, that movie. We used to put ourselves through that movie all the time. It was fun. We liked it. You remember? Sure. The 70s? Sure. You were alive all the time. It was fun. We liked it. You remember?

Sure. The 70s? Sure. You were alive? Kind of. I was young. But yeah, that's true. That's true.

Did your folks take you to those tough movies when you were a kid? Of course. My grandparents took me to Deliverance way too young. Ah. I don't know why. Nice. See, my folks took me to Serpico. I think I was six.

Oh, man. Oh, man. Where they set him up. The only movie they ever took me out of was Taxi Driver. And it's because we were think I was six. Oh, man. Oh, man. Where they set him up. The only movie they ever took me out of was Taxi Driver. And it's because I was 10 and we were in a drive-in. Yeah. And the folks started to get uncomfortable. Oh, my God.

When Jodie Foster showed up, it's like, we need to go. Yeah. I remember there was a couple movies there. I just remembered another one that nobody saw that I saw too much of was a movie called Prime Cut. It was like a Gene Hackman movie. Gene Hackman. Lee Marvin. Sissy Spacek. remembered another one that nobody saw that i saw too much of was a movie called prime cut it was like a gene haggman lee marvin sissy spacex fantastic yeah yeah and i just remember when i was a kid when the the they brought the package of sausages over and said that was so and so and i like that stuck with me and the and the the naked women in the in the pens oh yeah right

they were like on a phone like you know yeah in a stock stock it was crazy movie i don't even know what film i don't even remember what it was about well it's about lee marvin he's a gangster but he's competing slaughterhouses or something weird like the meat business i don't it was about America, baby. Yeah, man. That's what it was about. It all comes back to that. This is where Killer Joe comes from.

Prime cut. I didn't think anyone remembered that movie. Oh, sure. When was the last time you saw that movie? Not that long ago. Really? Yeah. Why?

I think I showed it to my wife. I think she hadn't seen it. I was like, oh, you got to see this. Oh, my God. I own it. I own a hadn't seen it. I was like, oh, you got to see this. Oh, my God. I own it. I own a copy of Prime. You do? Oh, yeah.

I got to watch it again. You own a copy on what? Blu-ray? They didn't put that on Blu-ray. Yeah. Something? Yeah, something. VHS?

Something. It's on a disc, maybe. You digitized it. That's how much you like that movie? I had a Betamax tape, and i didn't want to lose it so but but uh i get and also in uh obviously ladybird which is i think probably why you're here on some level this is part of that junket i thought you said you've been trying to get me on here for years i have and now you say that i'm on here why are you here why are you in los angeles

wait why you know i'm here for the SAG Awards tomorrow night. For what? Best Ensemble for Ladybug. Oh, okay. Are you yelling at me again? I've been trying. What, you want me to come to Chicago and sit at a sausage place and talk to you? Great city.

I'd love it. I've been going there a lot. I didn't know Chicago until the last few years, and now I've gone there a lot. I've taped a – Because you made Easy there. Yeah, a little before that, too. I taped a comedy special there at the Virgil. Is that it?

The Vic? The Vic, yeah, the Vic. I've been going, but, yeah, I taped Easy. Easy, yeah. And I got to know it a little bit. You were great in that thing, too. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

I like doing that, the improv thing. That first season – i haven't seen the second season that first season of easy did such a nice job of capturing our city i feel he loves it swanberg do you know him i don't know him i know who he is you should reach out to him i know him personally he's a good guy you should do uh one of his movies you just he just gets a guy and he'll follow you around with a camera and you wouldn't even know you're making a movie and then he'll call you a couple i don't know that i want that to happen it's time it's time so when but the range that you exhibit is is is sort of fascinating to me because in in ladybird you're you're sort of the the the guy

good guy yeah here's the you know what i mean and and you and laurie like because i asked her about it and she it was the first time you worked together, and you've known each other forever. Yeah. So it must have been amazing. It was great fun. To work with her. I've been really lucky in that some really good stuff has come my way.

Greta sent me the script out of the blue and asked me to do this thing. We did a movie together called Wiener Dog, a Todd Salon's movie. It was the one I didn't see. And we're in different vignettes, so we didn't work together on the film. I met her at the premiere at Sundance. And at the party, which was a terrible party, my wife and I chatted with Greta for 15 or 20 minutes. And that's when she realized I was an old softie. That's why she sent me the script.

She's like, oh, you're an old, I thought you were a hard ass from TV. You're an old softie. So she called and asked me to do that thing. It was just, and that's, man, I would sign up for that gig every day. Are you kidding? To have Greta and Lori and Saoirse run in the show, and I'm just sitting in the next room reading the newspaper. I'm happy.

That's the way it should be. Now, when you... So, I love the movie and I liked all you people that were in it. Thanks. Though we're going to lose that award tomorrow night. Why? I think three billboards is going to win it. Hmm.

Well, it's interesting. What does an ensemble mean? How often do you all have to be engaging together? I don't know. Yeah. Like, Three Billboards is an interesting movie. It's a bit of an abstraction where your movie is not. Yeah.

So I don't know. I wonder. Are you worried about it? Not really. No. What was I going to say? Now, as an actor, what do you find? Give me some pointers.

Why do you look shocked? I mean, like, what is your craft based on? Do you just show up and you make choices based on the script? Yeah. And that's it. I put on the clothes and i pretend to be the guy and i don't know how to do it any other way occasionally you go like is am i doing the guy right yeah is this the guy yeah occasionally they come up they go that's not quite the guy

you tell me what it is yeah because you tell me and i be a little more aggravated i was doing an episode of homeland and carrie wife, was visiting the set. Yeah. And I said, I'm glad you're here because I want to experiment. Because I hadn't worked on camera that much. Yeah. I've done a little piece of things over the years. And I said, I want to try and experiment.

I said, do me a favor and watch me on the monitor. And so I did a take where I acted. Yeah. And then the next take, I intentionally didn't do any, I was just like sucked all the feeling out of my body, just like this person without salt in their body and did the scene. And when it was over, I said, which was better?

And she said, oh, the second one was better. I was like, well, there's the lesson. Don't do anything. So what is it like being married to another actor? Fantastic. How long has that been? Four plus years. Oh.

Wow. And you appreciate each other's work. Yeah. And have you worked together a lot? We did Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf together. She played your wife? No. She played the younger?

Yes. Uh-huh. And I did an adaptation of Three Sisters, Chekhov's Three Sisters. She did that. And she was in my play Mary Page Marlowe last year. And then we just did The Post. So we've worked together a few times.

How was it being on the Spielberg set? Scary. I was scared. Yeah. Yeah. Intimidating. Yeah. Things move fast, right? There's meryl and there's

tom and there's you know steven behind the camera yeah you know it's like i you know i make a jaws joke and i was like shit jesus i you know i was 10 when jaws came out you know that's life changer you know yeah it's like shit i grew up watching these movies that's right we're about the same age i think that jaws you know had a fairly traumatic effect on me fucked me up forever right i can't swim at night you know sharks don't actually want to eat you yeah it's taking me a long time to realize especially not in pools i mean i wouldn't even go in a fucking pool room it's not gonna go in the water dude it's nighttime you're Especially not in pools. I mean, I wouldn't even go in a fucking pool room. It's just not going to go in the water. Nighttime.

You're right, especially in pools. Well, shit, man. This is great talking to you. Same here. Are you going to parties tonight? Fuck no. Do you think the food's going to be better than the Critics' Choice? Because I saw your Critics' Choice and I was going to say something, something but i realized i didn't know the food is not going to be any worse

than at the critics choice inedible but it was funny because i did see you and i'm like that's tracy let's i should go over there and do what like what am i gonna do well you also you couldn't get out of your seat once the thing started because you don't know when you're too far away is coming up you can't get over to somebody else. My category wasn't even on the televised part. It was before. I had the Lady Bird table to the side of me, and I had the Post table over there somewhere. Right.

So I sat at the Fargo table because my wife was up for Fargo, so that seemed to be the right. Right. Nice. Yeah. Diplomatic. We didn't go with it. Yeah. But we were doing double-digit losing, double-fisted losing.

Everybody's losing. Yeah, everybody. Yeah. If you weren't with Big Little Lies or Shape of Water, you were losing. Yeah, or the marvelous Miss Maisel going down. But all right, well, good luck tomorrow night. Thanks.

Maybe I'll see you over there, and we'll have... We'll probably be at tables where we can't see each other. We'll say hello. Because here's the weird thing with me, is I think a lot of people, they just, they don't register. Like if you don't really know this show or whatever,

but what we're doing here, I'm just a guy, you know, like I went to some guy's garage, you know, apparently it's a popular thing. And like, I think like that people don't know,

but like, cause I saw the only person like it, Greg has been on my show. I've talked to all these people. I've talked to all these people. Right. But like, because I saw the only person, like, yeah, Greta's been on my show. I've talked to all these people. I've talked to all these people. Right. You know, of all different levels. That's the high point, right?

Yeah, Obama, yeah. That's got to be the high point, right? It was an exciting day. But was it the best conversation I've ever had? No. But it was an exciting day. And it was pretty amazing. That's pretty amazing.

Yeah, it was amazing. Did you reach out to him? Did he reach out to you? Did he reach out to you? You want me to text him? Kidding. No, it was like they reached out. His staff reached out about a year before, and it just sort of evolved. The conversation evolved.

And then it happened, you know. And it was like it was a big deal. Big deal. Good president. Everything's never going to be like that again. I'm afraid not. The pendulum swings. Yeah, but I think it's going to break after this.

I think the swing is going to break. But what I was saying was, so I see people at the thing, and I don't know how to, because I saw Willem Dafoe just having me walking by me. And, yeah, I had just talked to him. You'd been in here. Yeah. And I looked at him and he looked at me like with that moment of sort of like,

who is it? And then it was like, that guy. And now I'm projecting, but it was awkward. So then I realized like, I'm not saying hi to fucking anybody who's been in my garage. Because I'm just- Oh, that's sad.

I would hope you would say hi to me if I saw you in the thing. This was a different experience do you know because i think i hope we see each other tomorrow night so i could just give you like the worst snub you've ever gotten well in my mind maybe it's my maybe i'm projecting my mind i think that people just see me as the guy that does the interviews in the garage you know and they're... Well, they're not paying attention.

I don't pay very careful attention to the world, but I know who you are beyond the guy in the garage. All right, well, that's... I've seen you on your TV show. I know you're a stand-up. Yeah. I know you did this. Yeah, all right, all right.

Easy. There's the whole you and Louis C.K. I know who the fuck you are. Okay. All right. I wasn't indicting you. And now I feel better because really what I was just trying to do is make it okay for me to say hi to you tomorrow night. Absolutely.

You should say hi. Please say hi. Thanks for talking. My pleasure. Okay. So that was tracy letts and to to complete the story uh you know when i went to the sag awards i went thinking that i could maybe maybe talk to tracy letts maybe have these interactions that i didn't think i could have because he made me feel like i should have them and i didn't know

if it was going to happen and i wasn't going to go run up and find him, but I went before the event started. I went to the restroom just to check my hair, actually, and wash my hands. I didn't have to pee, and I walked into the restroom, and who's washing his hands? Tracy Letts, and I see him, and then he sees me in the mirror

standing by where I walked in. And it's pretty full of people, and I go, so this is where it happens. This is where it happens. Tracy Letts, this is it. He turns around, he's laughing, and I'm like this. See, we're doing it. We're talking. We're having this event, and he hugged me.

I can't quite remember if it was in the bathroom or not. I'd like think it was but i think it might have been when we walked out so so i got closure on that and i feel a little more confident and comfortable in approaching people that i've talked to on this show at award shows as as a relative equal thank you for that tracy lights and thank you for coming on the show if you're not listening you're not listening and that And that whole table, people, they sat pretty close to me, the Lady Bird people. And I had to deal with Lori Metcalf because Lori, who I love, left her favorite hoodie here, her Steppenwolf hoodie, and she needed it for a photo shoot. And that's where that started to happen. I had to keep going back because I didn't get the name and the phone. So not only did I talk to people, I annoyed them. I mean like I went

and got Laurie Metcalf's phone number and they were sitting at the award show and this was on a break and I just wanted to make sure I could get her the hoodie in New York. I wanted to have her number. It was relatively complicated. But I had to go back two or three times

because I kept fucking my phone up. But she got the hoodie and she sent me a nice card and compensated me for the money I put out to FedEx it it was a nice funny card thanking me with two 20's in it just like my grandma used to send me alright that's it

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