WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 896 - David Oyelowo

Episode Date: March 7, 2018

David Oyelowo got America’s attention with his instantly-iconic portrayal of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in the film Selma. But this classically trained actor was making history on stage years prior, becoming the first black actor in the U.K. to play an English king in a major Shakespearean production. David talks with Marc about the importance of bringing his cultural background and life experience to roles of all stripes, including his character in the new movie Gringo, who was not initially written as a Nigerian immigrant. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucking ucks what the fuck is happening huh how uh come on what's going on i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf uh today on the show david a yellow oh i want to get that out right away because i don't know if i'm going to pronounce it right throughout the rest of the broadcast i i just watched him pronounce it on a bit of video uh to make sure i knew how to pronounce it a yellow whoa david a yellow whoa okay so he's he's on the show he's i'm gonna be talking to him we had a very

lively conversation he's a he's a talker he's uh he's a he's a great guy and uh we're gonna be talking about his uh his new movie gringo a bit but mostly about his life and about where he comes from and the roles and it was it was good i've been talking to a lot of actors lately what wait what can i tell you huh and you know and because of as you know because i've done a little acting myself recently it's uh it's always helpful actually to talk to actors it helps me it's my you have to indulge me my acting classes here on the air so what is happening people well that oh come on okay i've been so good about turning my fucking phone off did you guys hear that okay hold on it's my realtor my realtor is coming over it's happening though the garage is not empty yet i i'm still like holding i'm still in denial or something there's i've done nothing in

here it hasn't happened yet but the plan is i'm going to start uh i'm going to start recording in the new space um maybe next week i mean that's sort of the plan i if i have a realtor coming over and i'm about to do paperwork and sell this house i guess i got to get out of here i got to pack it up been looking at these books man been looking at these books i'm just like every time i look at them i can see the ones that are them, I can see the ones that are going, but I can see the ones that are staying. And I'm very excited to get them organized. I think that's why I moved. It's just an excuse to get organized. And then the other house is bigger.

And I still I've stalled on all levels here in this transition process. But I got to get out. I got to get on with it, folks. I have to get on with it. You. I have to get on with it. You know what I mean? Come on. Here, I want to read an email to you because I thought it was sweet. I thought it was sweet.

David Oyelowo is going to be here soon. Oyelowo. I'm getting it. I'm nailing it. I think I'm nailing it. Okay, subject line. You're guitar playing. Hi, Mark. I just wanted to

send a quick email to say thanks for the guitar playing you do at the end of most episodes. I have a 17-month-old, and we recently had him evaluated to see if he is delayed in certain ways. It turns out he is delayed in speech, which isn't the biggest deal as long as we address it now, but they were a little worried that he could be possibly delayed in other areas. One of the things we were told to look for was to see if he likes to dance to music. I've been trying everything, kids music, nursery rhymes, classic rock, jazz, et cetera, to no avail. Well, we were finishing up lunch the other day

while listening to your podcast in the background, and he started dancing to your guitar playing. That's so so that's very that touches me i replayed you playing several times and he danced to it every single time now my husband and i go back through old episodes and fast forward to the end so baby henry can dance apparently your guitar playing is the only thing that makes him want to move well that is that is a testament to my expression, and I appreciate that.

And then she says, I just wanted to say thanks, and I just love your show so much. Thank you for everything. That's from Maureen. Well, thank you, Maureen. I'm glad I helped out with the kid. I'm glad that my guitar playing has those raw feelings.

I'm glad I'm tapping into something so primal and young. It makes me happy. I love that email. I love it. I'm the only thing. My guitar playing is making that kid dance. He gets through. It gets through to that kid.

That is so nice. So sweet. Oyelowo. David Oyelowo. I think, am I holding it? Is it staying? Is it right? Is it true? Is it happening? So folks, I don't know where you're listening. I don't know what you're up to, but I would like to promote my Europe dates if I could, I'm going to go to my website right now, and I'm going to look at those dates specifically. I'm going to go to wtfpod.com, and I'm going to go to tour, and I'm going to push tour, and I'm going to see, oh, the Ice House. I'll be there Sunday,

this Sunday again, seven to nine. I do not know if there are tickets for that. That's here in Pasadena. April 16th, Royal Festival Hall in London. April 19th, China Theater. Stockholm, Sweden. April 22nd, Folk et Tertret. I don't know. Folk et Tertret. Oslo, Norway. April 23rd, Royal Theater.

Royal Theater, Carré. Amsterdam in the Netherlands. Oslo, Norway April 23rd Royal Theatre Royal Theatre Carré Amsterdam in the Netherlands and April 26th at Vicar Street in Dublin, Ireland

the shows at the Ice House were very good last weekend I riffed out some stuff worked out some things despite my insanity and my my whatever

nervousness or my beating myself up or whatever, we had great shows. And I want to work through some more stuff or tighten up some stuff. And a lot of new stuff will be happening. Most of it was new, to be honest with you. I was sort of surprised, but that's happening at the Ice House this Sunday. Oyelowo, huh?

Let's just do that now. Can we just get on with it? We can, right? I've chit-chatted enough, haven't I? So David Oyelowo, he's got a new movie, Gringo, which is in theaters tomorrow, March 9th. And he's been in a lot of movies. Selma, notably.

But it was great to talk to him about his life, where he comes from, who he is. And his journey as an actor and a human. And it was fun because he likes to talk. And that's always good for me. It's good when you can engage. And he's, what am I just going to sit here? I don't need to burn any more time. Let's talk to David Oyelowo, right? You can't get a nice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no.

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Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Now. now you live out there in the valley huh i do i do yeah in tarzana how long have you lived out there wife and four kids four kids yeah? Yeah. Four? Yeah. That's on purpose four. Yes. Yes.

I have three boys and a girl. Was the girl the last one? She was. Oh, yeah? Is that what you were trying for? You know what? I was happy with three boys and we just felt we just knew it was gonna be a girl you did yeah and so we got our zoe she's gonna be a tough girl

you know what the amazing thing though is that she's she has three brothers and she's a girly girl uh-huh she's not um overcompensating maybe maybe a lot of pink yeah a lot of barbies in the house but um but no she's very very lovely but yeah the valley we started in studio city when Overcompensating? Maybe. Maybe. A lot of pink. Yeah. A lot of Barbies in the house. But no, she's very, very lovely. But yeah, the valley. We started in Studio City when we first moved here. How long have you been here? Nearly 11 years.

Oh, really? 11 years in May. So we went Studio City, Sherman Oaks, Tarzana. Uh-huh. Yeah, we just kept on having children. Oh. Finding the bigger space. Yeah, more space.

Pretty soon you're just going to be on the edge of the desert. Yes. You're going to have the entire Death Valley. Well, I think we're kind of good now. I think four is where we're going to... We've done our bit for humanity. And you like it out there? I mean, I have no sense of Tarzana.

Zero. It's very nice. It is. It is very, very nice. Lots of space. And you get away from the craziness. And you're on this side. So this wasn't that bad a drive, right?

No, no. Just come over on the highway. You don't have to go over any mountains. Exactly. It was pleasant. So the last time I saw you, oddly,

well, outside of watching that movie last night, was I saw the production of Othello in New York City. Oh, wow. Yes. I went and saw you do that.

And I have to credit you with, it was a great job you did as Othello, but I've had many great Shakespearean actors in here. Well, two. I've had McKellen in here and Patrick Stewart in here. And McKellen sat there.

And I think he's a sir, right? Yes. So he sat there. Because I have a hard time with Shakespeare. Okay. Paying attention. You're not alone. No, I know.

But it's really about because people say what great stories they are and i'm like i can't get past the language i know but but my compliment to you is but what i was saying is mckellen did a monologue for me right there oh wow and it kind of went in oh it was very affecting it took a it took a it had an effect on me but i i followed othello because of your production better than I have any Shakespeare. Oh, wow. That's good. Yeah, it's good.

Well, they made it a contemporary setting. Yeah. It was a barracks. Yes. And the space was small. Yeah. And it wasn't precious. Our director, Sam Gold, I think did a great thing of making it feel incredibly visceral and pacey and in your face.

And, you know, it was 200 people in that tinderbox of a theater. So there was no escape. It was really a tinderbox. There were moments where you're like, I hope there's no fire. It was literally dry wood. How are we going to get out of here? There's plywood everywhere. Yeah, exactly right.

No, I loved doing that production. Daniel Craig, who played Iago in that production, and I just, we literally made a pact that every night we would try and kill each other. Really? To see if we could actually just end on the stage. Without actually killing each other. Without, preferably not actually doing it,

but to come darn near to doing it yeah it's it's weird that like i was very involved in it and i enjoyed the acting and the feeling and the excitement and the intensity and the violence of it but i'm not sure i could i could tell you what it's about right like if you ask me what is the storyline of othello uh i would be like it's complicated it is complicated though it is complicated but did you feel oh yeah byproduct of jealousy yes yes oh yeah and what and what that the the the diseased mind right or the diseasing right mind yeah comes with jealousy and then the people feeding the jealousy exactly oh you got the play mark oh yeah no no completely got the

sure i've got these sort of of universal kind of humanity of it. Right. Right. You know, but- Are you talking plot now? Yeah, plot. Oh, okay. Who cares about the plot?

Did you feel, Mark? Did we make you feel? I felt. I did. That's all we needed to do. I felt like you were in trouble. I was in deep trouble. Definitely trouble.

What's that guy's name? Sam Gold? He directed it? Sam Gold, yeah. He's directed other things too, right? Yeah. I feel like I know him. Fun Home, he did as well. trouble definitely trouble what's that guy's name sam gold he directed sam gold yeah what he's directed other things too right i feel like i know him fun home he did as well he just did a hamlet with uh oh right um uh oscar isaac right and uh yeah oscar isaac yeah yeah you worked with that guy in a movie yeah most violent i didn't know what that movie was about either you didn't

not really make you feel mark it did it did there you go and i'm no dummy i'm no dummy you know but the movie had sort of a pace to it yeah where you know i'm sort of like what what is am i missing something right it had that kind of like intensity it was a slow it was a slow burn yeah i guess that's a nice way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Everyone looked good. Thank you. Well, yeah. Jessica Chastain knows how to wear a coat. Yeah. And fake nails.

Yeah, yeah. She's an amazing actress, I think. Yeah, I just saw her in that movie. Molly's Game? Yeah. Right. She is really good. She's fantastic.

That's a big part that Molly's Game. Oh, yeah. And to do his sort of patter is tricky to make Sorkin sound normal. She has range for days. You too. I watched Gringo last night. You're kind of the guy who gets beat up. You're the sad sack. I have a lot of bruises given to me in that film.

Yes. That guy, Egerton, he's good too. Yeah. Fantastic. It's a great cast. It really is. Charlize Theron. Right.

Joel Edgerton, Amanda Seyfried, Tandy Newton, Sharlto Copley, Harry Treadway. I mean, you know, we had a great time. It's one of those movies, though, that's driven by, after a certain point, annoying coincidences. Well, but that's the thing about when we went to do the film. We thought, how do you make these absurd situations feel plausible? Yeah.

And you have to kind of play them for real. Straight. Yeah. There's no getting away from the fact that it's a caper and this guy's thrown into the most unbelievable circumstance. But you and I both know, Mark, that life is stranger than fiction. Well, yes, certainly it is. And if that was real life, there'd be real problems. But I imagine, but on some level, yes,

there are coincidences in life, but not as consistently as... You know where there are lots of coincidences? Where? Shakespeare. Yeah, really? He did all right. Yeah, because there was so much words between them.

Yeah. Very lengthy things. You don't even remember that it's a coincidence because you're sort of like, oh my God. I'm so glad you sat through, Othello. I'm now realizing

it was kind of a miracle that you were still there after three and a half hours. I'm not a lowbrow guy. I didn't accuse you of that much. Well, I feel like, but I'm hard on myself. Really? Yeah. I'm hard on myselfbrow guy. I just like, I, it's like, I have accused you of that much. Well, I feel like, but I, I'm hard on myself.

Really? Yeah. I'm hard on myself about Shakespeare. Okay. Because like, I, I seem to have committed to this, um,

this attitude about it. Whereas opposed to if I really sat down and said, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to really take it in. We can take it. I'm going to take a course. I don't know.

I think you suffer from low self-esteem when it comes to Shakespeare. That's what I'm feeling. Well, that, yeah. Well, thank God. I think I'm fixed now. a course. I don't know, Mark. I think you suffer from low self-esteem when it comes to Shakespeare. That's what I'm feeling. Well, yeah. Well, thank God. I think I'm fixed now. For years, I was wondering what my fundamental core issue was. And the answer was... You got it, right?

There it is. I want to thank you for helping me out. And I guess we're done. Okay. It was so nice seeing you. See you at my hamlet. Exactly. Yeah. Where I It was so nice seeing you. See you at my Hamlet. Exactly. Where I'll feel much better about Shakespeare.

But this movie, we might just start with that because it's the newest movie. But this was sort of a comedic, a little lighter. Weird because it's not light, but it is a comedy kind of, isn't it? Yeah. It's an action comedy. It doesn't take itself seriously. And I was really looking to do something other than, you know. You don't want to carry the weight of the history of black culture on your shoulder?

I didn't want the weight of black life on my shoulders again. So I decided to play a Nigerian immigrant who believes in the American dream. And that dummy and get so beaten up, get so beaten up for it. So so yes. And that that part was did he have you in mind? Or you don't know? Or you just know? No, it wasn't race specific. When in fact, the actors they were thinking of were very much sort of white comedic actors. Oh, really? Yeah. Like the regular guys?

The regular guys. You could reel them off and I'll nod if you get them right. Steve Carell? No. He's too high. He's too big. He's too big. What are you saying, Mark?

What are you saying? That it could only be a smaller white comedic actor who I stole the part from? Not smaller. I can get parts from Steve Carell. I believe you. You watch me. I'm going to text you. I'm literally now going to find out every job Steve Carell is up for.

It just seems like he's not going to do... You're digging this ditch, Mark. I know. You're digging this ditch. But know. You're digging this ditch. But I don't think we should load it up. I just couldn't remember any... I think Will Ferrell's pretty hot. Yeah?

He was up for it? I think he was one of the people they had in mind. Okay. You know, a Seth Rogen type, a Jason Bateman type. Oh, all right, all right. I'd put them in the Steve Carell echelons. Yeah, I would too i i think that steve now we're gonna have a conversation about this because i'm still not willing to to

you're trying to dig yourself out and i admire that i'm gonna backpedal a little bit but it would have been interesting to see them portray a nigerian immigrant which i would have liked to have seen now that i would like to see see portray a Nigerian immigrant, which I would have liked to have seen. Now that I would like to see. See, because that's real risque comedy to have Steve Carell play a Nigerian immigrant. Well, you know what I would really like to see? What? The backlash.

Yeah. Off of that. For him to play the one white Nigerian immigrant in all cinema history. Can you imagine? Can you imagine I think Robert Downey Jr. and Tropic Thunder Was the last one to just get under the wire Before Before the doors came slamming shut

But he took flack for that He took flack But the movie didn't tank And it's a great movie I think it's a very smart movie Yeah and he's really funny in it But I don't think that you could make that movie now.

I think they would get butchered. What do you think happened exactly? Well, I think... Outside of Trump. I mean, it was before Trump. Oh yeah, it was before Trump. I think, you know, when it comes to representation in the movie and TV industry generally,

I think it just came to the point whereby people now have enough of a voice where they can say, you know what? It's not okay to whitewash every story. And then to sort of white savior every movie where you could have had the opportunity to have someone who drives the narrative and is the hero of the piece. And then yet again, it's going to be

name an actor uh-huh uh i want you to dig another hole uh ryan gosling exactly yeah you know we we no one needs that enough enough ryan gosling enough of saving the day i could take for all humanity do you think do you think i couldn't take ryan gosling i'm sure you could okay i'm sure how are you i think i've won you over, Mark. No, no, I'm on board. Look, I want to, and I think that a lot of it has to do with not just voice,

but outlets too. You know, like that everything has become, the movie, the media industry itself has become diversified just by nature of outlets. Yes.

So like, why not more parts for everybody exactly exactly there's more no it's absolutely true there's more room to play and actually those big movies that everybody was complaining about it's like on some level it's like who gives a fuck about the big movies anyways right i mean i only see them if they come as screeners usually if it's like a huge movie oh you phistine. I know I'm the worst. Really? No, I said, did you see Dunkirk in a theater?

I didn't. Oh, but I would have. If what? I was busy. You know, there was a lot of busy. Yeah.

I, you're right. I am a bit, I've gotten lazy. Yeah. I've gotten lazy. Yeah. I watched yours.

The one last night on some very small, I saw Selma in the theater. Okay. Yeah. What was the last one? Well, I saw that Sofia Coppola movie in a theater. Okay. The last one.

The Beguiled. The Beguiled I saw in the theater. I saw. Did you like it? I did like it. I did. But I did watch the original too. And I'm not sure why she made certain choices.

I mean, the original was pretty horrifying. Okay. And menacing but i thought hers was very beautiful and focused and i liked it okay um i i i have seen other ones in the theater okay when was the last movie you saw in a theater um i went to see i went to see den of thieves in the theater what is that about three days ago gerard butler action action movie uh-huh how was it you like action movies um i do like action movies um and i thought it was okay my friend mo mccray is in it um and he's fantastic yeah in it and uh yeah and stx who distributed or who's

distributing our film gringo distributed it so well directed Gringo? He was like a stunt guy, right? Yeah. Nash Edgerton directed it. And yeah, he was a stunt guy for years. And then did these shorts. Amazing shorts. One called Spider, which is on YouTube. Anyone can go watch it. And another one called Bear. And then he also did a feature film called The Square, which is really, really fantastic.

Yeah. And he has great, great taste. And he's one of those guys who, he's good with action, but he's not looking to just jam it in any and every movie he does. It's sort of got to move the story along. Yeah. He's a great director.

Yeah, there were some moments in that movie, Gringo, where you're like, oh, what's going to happen? Yeah. Yeah, something exciting happens. Yeah. Yeah, I kind of want to spoil anything. I know, there's a lot. It's a hard movie to talk about without spoiling it.

Well, there's all these big things that happen yes and uh not great there's a lot of bad people in it a lot of bad people who pay yes yeah that's that's a mark of of nash edgerton's work any of his work you see he he he's very good with hubris yeah you know you reap what you sow yeah and uh people really reap what they sow in this one. So, all right. So let's go back now to Shakespeare and to the humble beginnings of you as a human. Okay. I can't believe you've been in Hollywood for 10 years.

I have now. Yeah. May of 07. From Britain you moved? Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep.

And you're happy about it? I love it here. I really, I know. I really, people are so surprised when you say you like living in L.A. I really, really love living in L.A. Some people love it. People love Southern California. Why do you think it costs so much to live here?

I'm very clear that people love it. It's show business that people are kind of like, ugh. Yeah, yeah. But, well, I live out away from all the... Yeah, exactly. Away from all the craziness. Off the grid in Tarzana. It literally might as well be Beirut, let's face it.

And yeah, my kids are doing very well here. The weather, of course, goes without saying, is lovely. I love it. Where's your family? Are they in England? My dad now lives with us. Oh, he's here too? He's here too.

My brother lives in Australia. I have one brother who still lives in London, but we're all over the place. There's three of you? Yeah. Three brothers? Yeah, three brothers. Where in Australia? He's on the Gold Coast.

The other side? Yeah. The far side? Yeah, the far side. Do you visit? I haven't been. I haven't been. It's a long way away, Mark.

I know. I think it's another year there. It certainly feels like that when I... Trump hasn't won the election yet in Australia on the Gold Coast. Oh, that sounds nice. Well, it's lucky. Yeah, he can go back. That's so nice.

But how long has he lived there? He's been there about eight years. Oh, my God. And you haven't visited? Don't be like that. He's come to see me. You're right. It's bad.

It's a bad situation. It is a long trip. It's sort of like, what's there to pull you other than just family? It's like, what else am I going to do once I spent the 30 hours on a plane? Family should be enough. You know, I have his daughters there, my niece. You're right. I should go.

You know what? You're building my case now. I'm leaving. You're going now? You want to get your phone out and make a reservation? Can I? Yeah. But you can wait.

You can wait till after. I'll wait till after. But you grew up entirely in England? No, I was born in Oxford, England. Then we moved to London when I was very young. And then we moved to Nigeria when I was six. And I lived there till I was 13. But your folks were from Nigeria.

Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. So why'd they move? Why'd they go back? My, you know, it's, Nigerians are very aspirational. And I think a British education is something my dad really aspired to. And so he moved. Oh, went and got it?

Yeah, yeah. He went and got it. But also my dad's from a royal family in Nigeria and my mom's a commoner. And so they kind of had to elope to get married. And they did that in the UK instead of in Nigeria and my mom's a commoner and so they kind of had to elope to get married and they did that in the UK instead of in in Nigeria so wait the Nigerian royalty had rules against the commoner situation well my my mom is also she she was she's passed away now but she was Igbo and my dad is Yoruba these are two different these are two different tribes yeah and both Nigerian

both Nigerian and there was a real schism between the Yoruba and the Igbo tribe. Anyone who knows about the Biafran War will know that. I feel like I should know. Well, there's a lot I'm learning that you should know that you don't, Mark. But that's okay. But you're just learning it? It's my history. I should know it.

I know. But when did you learn it? I learned it because it's, you know. But recently? No! About the Biafran War and my parents? I've known them a while. Okay, good, good.

I'm just checking. You're right. You're right. My dad, there are things that I'm only just finding out. Is that true? Yeah. He's very kind of laid back, you know, in terms of our history. Because we grew up in the UK and now we're here in America.

You know, I'll ask things about my uncle. You know, for instance, I'll say, how many siblings did you have, daddy? I think, was it eight or seven? Ah, no, nine. No. Eh? I cannot remember so i'm like i can't tell if his memory is going or it's hiding something i don't know maybe there were some shenanigans well that's weird when they

get older because they because like if there are secrets they forget to keep them right you know like oh no maybe i shouldn't ask i don't know if i want weird dude like they get old and something will come out and you're like wait what yeah yeah with who i literally had one of those the other day i was like so is it seven or eight right um so anyway well how why doesn't he know was there was there a couple of different um mothers now now you're making me feel like I've got to ask questions. No, I don't think there were, but you know what? My grandfather was the king of this region.

Yoruba region? Yes, within Yoruba lands, a place called Awe. And traditionally, he was allowed to have several wives, but he was the first in his line to become a Christian. Don't say it like that, i'm glad that i have just the one i i'm why do you why are you projecting but what i'm saying here is that maybe you should talk to him a little more oh you think i don't i

don't know i'm saying like you know christian's good but doesn't always do the trick oh really your your uh was quite loaded that That's why I called it. Well, I'm just like, you know, the old ways, the new ways, and then the secrets, and then, you know, seven, nine. You think he's Christian-ish? Well, yeah. Look, what do I know? I don't want to judge. What do I know?

I'm just saying that I'm basing this all on the seven, nine. Yeah, you're probably not wrong. And you're also ruining my childhood. But this is things you should know. I'm hereing this all on the seven, nine. Yeah, you're probably not wrong. And you're also ruining my childhood. But this is things you should know. I'm here to help you. You're right. We've already helped me a little bit. We've helped each other a lot, I feel.

I've been humbled a couple of times within this short conversation. I've made a couple of mistakes. Well, you led with Shakespeare. What did you expect? Right. That's true. You went big. All right. So he's living with Shakespeare. What did you expect? Right. That's true. You went big. All right.

So he's living with you. Okay. So he moved from Nigeria to get the education in Britain, and he met your mother there. Yes. No. They met. My mom was my uncle's secretary. Oh.

Your father's brother? My father's brother's secretary. So he went to visit his brother. There was this wonderful lady behind the desk. And that was that. And that was that. And that was history. But the royalty of the Yoruba clan or tribe was upset. They weren't over the moon about him marrying an Igbo lady.

These are elders? Yeah. Community kind of. And it's just, you know, it's that thing when people are feuding, families, they don't even remember why anymore. Right, right. And it's also modern times. Why are you still holding to this? Well, yeah, I mean, this was the 60s, 70s.

Oh, that's true, yeah. You know, so, and it's just that crazy thing we do. Irish, Catholic, Yoruba, Igbo, Black, White. I guess that's true. Human, I think is the point we're trying to make. Yeah, it's human. It's just that, yeah. Well, ethnicity, nationality, these things seem to run deeper than you ever imagine.

It's true. But the best part of us is cutting through that, I find, you know, so my parents getting married was a beautiful, unifying thing for two groups of people who, you know, would otherwise probably not associate in that way. Well, I imagine it would have been different had Christianity not been a part of it. Maybe, yeah, I think you're absolutely right. You know, my dad grew up a Christian and I guess compassion and looking beyond tribal traditions became something that, you know, he was more open to. So you're absolutely right. So what did you keep in? And what did he keep within the family of these tribal traditions?

Well, my dad has tribal marks on his face. So he has four slashes on his face and he has the word ballet written on his stomach. And the tattoo? No, in just cuts, little blade cuts on his stomach. And the reason you have that traditionally is so that if you were to die in war, they know to give you a royal burial. So that's one of the things he has. But that thankfully stopped with him. I think if I had... He was the last guy? He was the last in my line.

I think, you know, eight slashes on my face would have curtailed the acting a little bit. Well, it would have limited your roles. I think so. You wouldn't be so confident about doing Ryan Gosling's part. No, no. I wouldn't be so front-footed about going after his roles. You're right. You are right. I will give you that front-footed that sounds like a shakespearean word i just threw it in there i'm just showing off front-footed i like it see like i if you just choose those old words

like you know like uh carefully they have a lot more punch when more punch as opposed to strung together with nine other adjectives. Well, but that's the thing with Shakespeare. His vocabulary is five times the vocabulary we use now. He invented a lot of words that we use. Both of those sentences just made me tired. How did you get through Othello?

I'm phoning Daniel Craig afterwards and saying we did a miraculous thing when Mark came. And Rachel Weiss, his wife, was there that night, as was Frances McDormand. Do you remember this night? Yes, I do remember this night. I was there that night sitting behind Frances McDormand going like, that's the back of Frances McDormand's head. Wow. Is that what broke it up for you? The fact that you were staring at Frances McDormand's head?

A little bit. I think that might have kept me awake. And whatever Cohen she's married to, she was with. Oh. Is it Ethan or Joel? I'm not sure. The tall one. I'm not sure.

The tall Cohen. The tall Cohen. Right. But I just met her at the thing. Were you at the thing the other night? What was that? The SAG Awards? I wasn't at the SAG Awards.

I was at the PGA Awards the night before. Oh, good. But not the SAG Awards. Yeah, I met her there. And now we kind of know each other. Oh, well, that's good. It's nice when those people, when you find out they know who you are. For me, it's exciting.

Did you tell her that you stared at the back of her head? No, I didn't think that was a good opener. I didn't think she'd know me. And I was about to introduce myself. She's like, I know you. You're great on the show you're on. Oh, wow. didn't think that was a good opener i didn't think she'd know me and i introduced my i was about to introduce myself she's like i know you you're great on the show you're oh wow yeah so that was nice but i mean everyone knows you you were you know martin wither king well i'll take it yeah i'll take it she was very nice when she came to see the play that really took me aback oh yeah i bet it was quite a it's like winning an award isn't it when she says winning an award that's the award you want to win right that's why when i was at the sag awards and she

said i loved your work on glow i'm like i guess i did win tonight oh yeah big time were you up for an award yeah oh wow i was up for uh best um actor in a comedy male actor in a comedy tv was that for glow yeah oh wow bill macy. No, he had it coming. He's aight. Yeah. He's aight. He's been working a long time. He has.

But you are very, very good in that show. I mean, you're quite the irreverent. Yeah. I mean, you're a bit mean. Yeah. No filter. No, it's, yeah, there are moments there where it's sort of like, oof, like, you know, where you shoot the scene and you got to run up to the girl afterwards and be like okay you okay everybody oh good that's kind of glad to

hear because i i i'm gonna throw it in again you're very front-footed with that performance when you're going after those girls sure well i think it required that yeah they record it required the front-footedness yes and uh and it also required me not finishing scenes going like, that felt good. Like, I don't like it was not. I didn't want to, like, necessarily stay in character off stage. Right. Yes. I would advise you do not do that. Oh, my goodness.

That would be a bad thing. So. So. All right. So you go back to Nigeria at what age? At six. Because I just want to know some things because i have no idea what nigeria is like and now like now we know we've got you come from two tribes yes and and jesus yes and uh there's scarification involved yes there's a royal burial burials happening so when you go back

how old are you you're six i'm six and like you were going to prep school in england well no i was going to a very normal school in england and then i went to a very posh schools in in in nigeria because of the royalty because yeah you know my family had certain stature, which is probably why we went back as well. Things were getting a little tough in England. You know, I lived on a yellow street in the family compound and all that cool stuff. What, in Nigeria? In Nigeria, yeah. So what was going on in England?

To be honest, a lot of racism, you know. No. My dad had... I know, it's shocking. Oh, my goodness. I know we haven't heard that word in decades. No, I thought it was over. Here in America.

I know, if only. No, he had hot coffee spilt in his face. Just because he was Nigerian? Just because he was black, you know, and trying to get ahead for his family and, you know, getting work. But Oxford's not like a working class. No, we had moved to London. We had moved to South London after, at the age of two or thereabouts. And so we moved to Nigeria.

But then, lo and behold, a very corrupt military government came into power. And then it became untenable to live there as well. So we moved back to the uk when i was 13 see that fascinates me i talked to uh it fascinates me in the sense that how you know entitled and naive i am as an american really i can't speak for all americans that that people like i talked to raul peck right and uh great director a great and you know a great mind and a real a real fighter real activist guy but like where he comes from you know in haiti you don't you you're born into activism you don't it's your life right it's not sort of like i'm going to now do this right it's like

it's what you do yeah yeah and the idea of uh you know a military dictatorship just happening right you know we're we're dealing we're dealing with a wannabe dictator, and it's completely disruptive, and it's terrifying us. We were terrified by our fellow Americans, who we never knew that there was as many of them as there are that are terrible in a specific way. Right. Right.

You know what I mean? I do. It just awoken it. Yes. And it woke us up to something different. But there's a level of terror here because of the government that I don't know, unless you were a very sort of diligent and active, you know, real lefty. It hasn't been this terrifying in my life. Right.

Yeah. real lefty. It hasn't been this terrifying in my life. Right. Yeah. But the truth of the matter is, as a black person living in America, you always know and knew those people were there.

Yes. And what is kind of the silver lining in all of this, for me personally, is that you go, welcome. Yeah. Welcome to our lives. Thank you. Thank you for having me, I think.

So what do we do now? I know. This is the big question. Welcome to the big question, my friend. No, you know what? It is an interesting thing because even coming from the UK to this country, you have certain preconceptions about what the country is and what the schisms are. And it's not until you're here, it's not until you're, you know, Raoul is growing up in Haiti, that you can speak to the specifics of being in that environment. And living here,

you know, even in a very trite way, you know, the things I faced within the entertainment industry, by way of prejudice and marginalization. It's very tough to express them without just seeming like you're complaining or whatever, which is why it's been a very liberating thing for me to produce and to sort of take some power back and just to actually find things I want to do and not wait for anyone to- And make them happen. And make them happen, even though it's very, very difficult to get them off the ground. But I'm happy for you because, you know, acting, it does feel like you don't, you know, unless you're one of 10 people, have traction or, you know, control. Yes. And, you know, it's sort of a weird position to be in.

It's hard. Like, no matter how good you are, I would imagine you're still just working for somebody. Well, that's the thing that shifts good you are i would imagine you're still just working for somebody well that's the thing that that that shifts when you are producing yeah exactly and what yeah and and and that's not a nice feeling especially when inherent marginalization is a hemisphere that you are having to sort of uh engage with it's it's interesting because they're like there are people that i i you know when you talk about we started this conversation with the you know what i'm assuming was a military dictatorship taking over yes yes and you know you had to i don't know how active the fleeing was but was it did you have time i mean did you oh oh yeah we weren't we weren't sort of packing a bag very quickly right it's just that you know it was a military government that was so corrupt.

And that corrupt attitude became infectious. So you couldn't, you know, you just have you had police people just throwing up roadblocks everywhere. And to get past it, you had to bribe them. And if you had a certain degree of morality about you, you just felt I can't go through my day perpetuating this corrupt atmosphere by paying into it. And so that was partly why my parents were like, you know what, we have got to get out of here. This is crazy. You know, and that to bring it back to Gringo, that's partly why I wanted to play him as a Nigerian immigrant. Because, you know, as I say, he wasn't written as such. But when Nash and I discussed it, how do you have a hapless, wide eyed character who isn't just, you're going to put him in glasses,

you're going to make him fat, you're going to make him a nerdy guy. you can actually make him a real person who really believes and and i watched my dad as an immigrant in the uk buy into something that every day kind of his faith in it was chipped away by the reality as opposed to his perception of what being in that country was going to mean for him it's a big, that reality versus perception thing. Yeah, yeah, it really is. It really is. And so for Harold Shoinka in Gringo, that's part of his awakening is the fact that he buys into corporate America, the American dream, the fact that he's his friend, you know, who is going to help him climb the corporate ladder, a friend as played by Joel Edgerton, who is very shady and doing very dodgy things.

And then, not till he gets to Mexico, are his eyes opened, and he's suddenly being chased by the cartel, his bosses, and an assassin. It's interesting that if that Edgerton guy's not careful, he's going to be a shady guy in every movie. He's good at it. Well, he's not a shady guy in Loving.

Did you see him in that? No, he's not. He's great. But in Black Mass, he was a a shady guy in loving did you see him in that he's great he's wonderful but in uh but in black mass he was yeah great shady guy great great film and one front footed shady guy very front footed he's good at that he's good at that he's a wonderful actor but let's talk about this because i want to come back around to this uh institutional margin marginalization especially in show business which is yeah you you know, it's been talked about for a long time. Like I remember Robert Townsend did a film about it. Hollywood Shuffle.

Yeah, Hollywood Shuffle. So that, you know, and obviously before that, but that was really addressing it in a comedic way, the limited possibilities of black actors in Hollywood. Right. possibilities of black actors in hollywood right so when and you talk about your father and that that is more systemic you know marginalization of just this is the way it is you're only going to get so far but like when you when did you start noticing it in like how did you come up as an actor you know when when did you start well in the uk uh for instance, partly why I live in the States now is that, you know, as you know, in the UK, we love a good period drama. And if you are going to deny the fact that black people have been in the UK for hundreds of years, then you're not going to put them in those shows.

And a lot of the great, you know, Ian McKellen, Patrick Stewart, who we've already talked about, a lot of those great actors, they started in the theatre, migrated to period dramas, which we are known to do well. And that's how they, on TV, and then it goes to film. And that's kind of traditionally how British actors become known. That's the industry. Yes, that's the pipeline. That's the pipeline towards, you know, stardom, I guess you'd call it. And if as a black person, that is not open to you. Because they're denying it.

Yeah. They're denying that part of their history. Exactly right. You know, and so then it just the glass ceiling appears very early for you, you know, after you've done a couple of theater things, maybe a couple of TV things. And then, you know, it starts to get thin. Where did you train? What was the process?

I trained at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. That's a good one. It's a good one. It's a very good one. And was this something your dad was excited about? No. No. Why do you want to go and associate with all these promiscuous people?

That was his concern? Yeah, the promiscuity. But also, for a traditional Nigerian parent, the arts is just not. It's engineering. It's being a lawyer, a doctor. It's academia. Sure. But he's very proud now i'm

glad to say well they're scared too yes you know they you know they know it's hard enough exactly uh you know as as anybody you know but you know let alone i would imagine you know as a nigerian in england you know you get into something that at least you can get a paycheck exactly something stable pension something reliable yeah yeah you know um but uh that that was that's where his his nervousness stemmed from but but as i say you know with time and thankfully i i gained the kind of notoriety that right right yeah fame fame he's willing to forego any you're married you got four kids he's assuming he made it through the promiscuous part yeah yeah exactly you know what i mean exactly but so so you go to the the royal academy and then what's the next step in

in the education what'd you learn there just traditionally classics it's a very theater-based training right um so you know you you learn how to this is gonna sound pretentious but you learn how to use your body as an instrument right you learn how to be able to be on stage and convey emotion and humanity and story and language to a 2,000-seat auditorium. There is a difference between classically trained actors and a method-trained actor. I would agree with that. I would agree with that. Yeah, that's that I guess is the big difference between American sort of actor training and British is that, you know, film being a I guess a younger storytelling tradition. Yeah. Is what has been embraced by America. And you could argue America gave to the world. Yeah.

to the world. And so, you know, method acting and that methodology is prevalent, whereas in the UK, it is rooted in the Greek tragedies and Shakespeare. You know, that's where you're coming from. And so, yeah, that was the nature of my training. And then that led to me being at the Royal Shakespeare Company for for three years does it naturally lead to that or you got to audition for that or you have to audition yeah they don't just sort of pluck you out of drama school okay everyone from Lambda now come to the RSC that's not how they refill it every four years only yeah um uh but no so I ended up there and I and I had some amazing opportunities I got to play Henry VI

in Henry VI parts 1, 2 and 3 and that was a big deal for me no black actor had ever played an English king for the RSC before only black actors do Othello Othello was the black actor exactly

we'll throw them that bone that's the big payoff for the black actor but exactly we'll we'll throw them that that's the big payoff for the black actor but yeah but no henry the fifth or sixth or richard the second and you did it the third and i did it richard the second which is the one with the limp or the that's richard the third yeah that's a rough one yeah that that'll that'll you'll need a chiropractor for that one i saw william hurt do it in broadway and i don't know what happened. I know I was excited to see William Hurt. And then it was just like. At what point did you start?

How many minutes in did you start switching off, thinking about your laundry list? 37. 37 out of the 190. You had barely made it out of the first act, Mark. Wow. But I was younger, and you know, I was just... Foolishness of youth. I just didn't know what to expect.

Look, I try. I try. I love the trying. Well, you know, you hold on to the language for a while, but if you check out for a minute and you check back in, it's fucking over, dude. Yeah. There's a vigilance necessary to the attention given.

Well, did you notice what we did with Othello? Sam did a genius thing, which is that the first scene was completely in the dark. And what that does is it keys you into the language as opposed to going, oh, there's Daniel Craig. Oh, look at the set. You lead with the language. And so by the time the lights came on, people sort of were less intimidated because they've almost had to to key in to as you would an audio book and then boom they have the yeah it was great i remember sam gold is uh is baker's uh friend uh annie baker is that her name i don't know the playwrights he did the flick

didn't he yes that's exactly right right that's exactly right and that guy yeah the actor from the flick i I think was. Yes, he was. Matt Mayer. Yeah. He's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He played Rodrigo.

That's right. Fantastic. But all right. So getting back to it. So you you do the you play the king for the first time. You're the first black man to play these Richards. Yes. And how that goes.

The Henry's. Yes. Really well, thankfully. Oh, they were ready. They're like, OK's okay. They weren't ready, but thankfully the productions were good enough that people went, oh, actually, we just liked the story. And it's not, you know, I wasn't, again, as is the case with Gringo. When I left drama school, I literally, every agent I approached with a view of taking me on, I said, I want to go up for the roles white actors are going up for. And some of them would laugh at me and say, why? I said, because so often the roles written for

black characters are less dimensional and are on the periphery. And that's not what I'm really interested in. That's not what inspires me when I watch a film or read a play. I ideally want to be at the at least the the common experience can be seen in each character. Right. Then it's it's going to be flat. It's going to be shallow. Even even beyond common experience, just attention to it, because so often it's not actually racism. It's just right. We project our own existence into

the work we do so as a writer as a producer as a director right you are going to do gravitate towards work that reflects your own world and you know this was born out when i first sat down with nash our director on gringo and he said wow i've been scouting locations in Chicago, which is where my character lives in the film. And about half the population seems to me is black. And I've not once thought of this character as being a black man. And he said, and I know that's fundamentally to do with the fact that I'm a white man. And not until you've come in and helped me see a world in which it could be someone like you. Have I even contemplated it? Yeah, that's interesting because, you know, your character has the most depth in the movie.

Right. Right. But that's not, you're saying right, but that's not on purpose. You know, it's just that because of the work that you made him more attentive attentive you had ideas about this character and he had a sort of personal history that that is reading uh as a character but not written into it yes whereas when no matter how good charlize theron is as an actress i've kind of seen that character before but you know the thing though mark is that the character, even before I came along, he is the protagonist. And so that is where you want the most amount of depth and nuance and dimension. And so, but the really great thing

for me is that I can come and play a character that you have very seldom seen on film. When last did you see a Nigerian immigrant as the driving character in an action comedy? No, I haven't. I've never seen it. It's never happened. I would know. Yeah. You did your research?

Yeah. I heard that there was a Nigerian man played the Henrys in Shakespeare. Oh, that guy. Yeah, yeah. He wasn't very good. Yeah, but he's like breaking. It's done wonders for him. But, you know, I think I could have done that.

No, that's true. I think that's true that there were nuances to the gringo character that exist in you outside of the character that you were able to bring to it. And, yeah, I've never seen it before. Well, this is the thing. When we just broaden the palette a bit, you know, it's the same thing with female directors. Men are phenomenal. And I've worked with a lot of great male directors. But women do bring something a bit. You know, it's the same thing with female directors. Men are phenomenal. And I've worked with a lot of great male directors, but women do bring something a bit different. And

it's not that it's better or worse. It's just that it's seldom seen. And so when it's done well, when you give them all the toys and allow them to go with their creativity, it's fresh. You know, Wonder Woman is fresh in the world of superheroes because you suddenly have a female perspective and you're going, whoa, because we've so often seen a different perspective. It was the same thing with Selma. You know, every guy, every director, I should say,

who contemplated it before Ava came along was a man and it took a very specific, more political, more cerebral point of view. When she came on, the women characters became so much more nuanced. The emotion of what I got to do as Dr. King was so much more layered. And again, it's not to say that any of the guys' versions wasn't going to be potent and exciting and visceral. But it was just slightly different having a woman doing it. And we just need more different kinds of people

telling stories so we see all the layers. Sensitivity is different. Yes. And also what I was thinking when you were talking about the other thing in terms of like, as people get older with, you know, with writers, no matter who they are,

and people in show business and directors, like, you know, the more you get set in your ways of life, the smaller your world becomes. So, you know, what your experience is when you come to it, you know, the more you get set in your ways of life, the smaller your world becomes. So, you know, what your experience is when you come to it, you know, if you're a white writer writing for a black role, a guy who just sits and writes in Pacific Palisades for the last 20 years, I mean, what is his point of reference even going to be to make

up a black guy? It's going to be a regurgitation of what he's watching on TV. Right. That's what it's going to be, or perceptions of what regurgitation of what he's watching on TV. Right. That's what it's going to be, or perceptions of what that is. Or something he wrote 20 years ago. Right. Well, it would actually probably be better if it was something he wrote 20 years ago

because he was probably more connected to the world before he became rich and lived in the Pacific Palisades and had less contact with humanity. That happens with actors all the time. Sometimes their ability to express humanity diminishes with age because they are less connected to humanity. You've got to really guard that. You've got to take time off and go and just live and be with people. If you're just going from movie set to movie set, being pampered, surrounded by yes people, your potency as an actor, in my opinion, will

diminish. No, it would seem to make sense, but it would also seem that with the specific type of classical training you have, it shouldn't make as much a difference. I think there's something to be said for that, because you know what? If you have given 500 performances of Henry VI, where every night you have people's eyeballs on you and you can tell when they believe you and you can really tell when they don't. You have a muscle memory as to how to tell the truth as an actor that being on a set sometimes doesn't afford you because it's such an artificial environment. So when you have that in your body, that's why our favorite actors are often those who have done great work in theater. Yeah.

Well, I mean, the other thing I'm starting to realize as I talk to you, and I think I always knew it, but I don't think I knew world that these stories from other places that are told from people that live in other places, you know, is essential to keeping the humanity of things, you know, visceral and fresh and challenging. Absolutely. Because like you just fall into a hellscape of your phone. Oh, my goodness. It's such a problem. It really, really is. I mean, look, those phones and social media have actually done some great things in that we, you know, not everyone can travel, but you can with this phone.

You can be in the Serengeti. You can see what's... It's not the same thing as experiencing it. No, I know. But at least there's a way on your phone you can realize that people in Nigeria don't all live in huts and are surrounded by lions, which I have heard so many times said to me here in America as a perception of what my life in Nigeria must have been. So they think of Lion King. They think of if only. They think of, if only, it's Lion King mixed in with genocide, mixed in with all sorts of hideous things. But that's pervasive. I mean, we really need a bunch of young kids and you'd say, who do you think? Who is Dr. King? And they say, oh, he he freed the slaves.

Come on. I mean, literally, you would you would hear kids say maybe mentally, hopefully. Yeah. Partly. But they meant literally. Yeah. Which is a problem. So, you know, but that's why when I go going back to as a producer, you know, I did this

film, a United Kingdom set in Botswana in the UK. And I really wanted a director of color, preferably someone who had an experience of the African continent. So Ama Asante, who's Ghanaian, who's also born in the UK, was a perfect person to tell that story. Traditionally, it would be a white dude from Los Feliz who would get to direct that film. Who'd get there and be like, oh God, it's so hot here. And you know what? Every character in the film would be going,

oh God, it's so hot. And they would all be white dudes while all the black people are going, we live here and it's just fine. And they'd be on the side because he wouldn't understand them. And that's fine. There are stories I shouldn't tell.

And it's not to say that, you know, the white dude from Los Feliz shouldn't tell that story, but it's been that way for so long that we just don't have a different perspective. And, you know, that's something that is happening a bit more, but we have to be vigilant and not have it be just a moment, a movement that continues.

Exactly. But like the beginning of that for you was interesting to me that and how you talk about the british industry is that you knew this going in in a very specific way that that the the business was dug in the representation of black people was dug in the history of of the theater and of england in general was dug in and they have i imagine their documentaries on television and some tv and film projects that do talk about the marginalization and tell those stories. But it's certainly not enough to make a living. No.

And there are not enough people to fight the cause because all the people who have the decision-making power are all of a certain demographic. Until that truly changes, will it actually completely change do you see that struggle in britain as being you know unwinnable no i don't see it as unwinnable and i think we're actually winning i'm about to do a mini series of les miserables uh playing javert in in that show and it's for the bbc it's a six part part uh drama and it's exactly the kind of role I would have loved to have seen as a young kid growing up that would have opened my eyes to different possibilities. But they didn't exist. I've had to come and forge a degree of success here in order to be able to go back and be part of those opportunities that I hope will be part of the change. And also help facilitate them.

Like you have a voice in, let's make this happen. Exactly. Exactly. And I've been fairly vocal about it. And I have no doubt that that's partly why an opportunity like this comes along. And I get to produce that. I'm one of the producers on it. And that also is a very significant shift. That's the kind of thing that definitely wouldn't have happened when i was younger uh looking for for heroes and circumstances that would inspire me yeah and so but you know when you talk about hollywood here like there it does feel like there is a persistence to the the movement both with women and people of color that like that it's sort of like you know it's we're not going to stop now well you know what important. Also, we're seeing such systemic change with the Me Too movement going on right now. And I do think that this is a moment beyond which Hollywood will never be the same again.

You know, I may have been reticent to say that a few months ago, but I really feel like it's with us now, this change as it becomes to the marginalization of women and the mistreatment of women in Hollywood and everywhere. Yeah. You know, it's just kind of ironic and probably fitting that it started within Hollywood and has become pervasive. I don't mean it started in Hollywood. I mean that this sort of lightning rod

that's centered around the world. And it is an industry that has the ability because it curates culture. It forms, unfortunately, more so than it should, the way we think, you know, because we don't read as much anymore.

We just watch. Well, it's very funny from the beginning Hollywood's been like that, that there was these, you know, three or four sort of like European immigrant Jewish people, men,

who couldn't pass and did not fit in and were not welcome. So they're like, we'll invent a world that will make America look like this place where everybody can live.

A place where we can exist and thrive and be successful. Absolutely. Absolutely. It was built, the seeds of it were from marginalization. Yes. And that's the thing. You know, every, this is what we do.

We form a power base on the basis of being marginalized elsewhere. And then we do the very thing that was done to us before we formed a power base. It takes some time. Yeah, it takes some time. Yeah. Yeah, but it's a revolving kind of human condition. But like I say, you know, I actually, if you'd asked me this time last year about do I think good change is coming, I would perpetually say, yeah, I've seen this before. I've seen moments where it seems that way,

and then we regress. I actually think, you know, as it pertains to female directors. Big regression. Politically, we're in a massive regression. But I think that's partly why there is progression elsewhere. Absolutely. Are you kidding?

People are furious. They're like, are you fucking kidding me you gotta be fucking kidding me isn't it crazy that it takes that though it takes for people that take it into their own hands yeah and organize and and create communities as opposed to like i don't know isn't someone else doing something about that exactly do i have to get involved where do i just can i just write a check you know what it's it's it's ironic yeah and and we're laughing because we otherwise we would cry yeah but it's true it no of course it's true and i don't i think that that part of of that if the system that we live in here yeah you know is able

to survive this that's how it survives right and that's always been how it survives. Whereas in other countries that do not have, you know, as sort of what do I want? Aspirational a political system. Yes. That it's impossible. Yes. Tyranny will always succeed. Yes. Yes. And, you know, and that is the amazing thing about this country. I do. I do think that that it was built on dreams. It was built on having a people who could dare to dream. And that was the thing that I just, it was a thing that wasn't in the script of Gringo that we were able to put in there, this aspiration, this wide-eyed aspiration of what the American dream could mean for my character as a Nigerian immigrant and how that bites him in the butt so furiously on the basis of the degrees of his trust.

I like the way that you talk about, you know, this character primarily that, you know, it's starting to sound like Gringo might be the best movie about America, the struggle of immigrants and race to ever be made. We're going to quote you on that. That's going to be on buses. I'm just extrapolating from these moments of excitement in the context of the bigger conversation. When you come back to this, it's not a it's a it's a it's a an action comedy movie.

But when we're talking about it in the context of what we're talking about, it's like, this sounds like a very important film. It is. Everything I do is important. Mark, did you not know this? Have you not seen my wife? Believe me, believe me.

I was nervous going into this. No, but I do, you know, to a, to a certain degree, I do think it's, it's pretty radical.

I think personally, I do think it's pretty radical, I think, personally, others may scoff at me, to have a character the likes of which you haven't seen under these circumstances. Because it's one thing for me to get to play roles that Ryan Gosling couldn't. Right. But it's another thing to get to play roles that not only Ryan Gosling could, but has. to get to play roles that not only Ryan Gosling could, but has, but for me to then be able to bring my history, my culture, my experiences, and the freshness that that then brings with a cast like Charlize and Joel and Amanda, and to see what that does, because that actually is the world we live in. No, and I think that's true. And it sounds, it sounds like it should be simple in a way that, you know, why wouldn't we just honor, you know, the way things really are as

opposed to fabricating, you know, like, and I think that I just don't think that people, you know, certainly the entrenched industry is not used to it. Right. But, but like for, to do what you're doing, which is to think through this character who is part of the fabric of this country. Right. You know, you know, and a common common.

Yes. And just integrate that. Yes. Something that like everybody deals with every day, no matter where they're from, really, even if they hate black people, they're dealing with immigrants are dealing.

They're, they're, they're not writing the script, hopefully, but, but it is part of the fabric of our country and it's not represented a hundred percent that's why i'm i'm just so excited about it because you know it's it's the kind of thing it's a breakthrough for

you and and when you put it into the larger context it's a breakthrough it is yeah it is and you only and you know when our trailer came, you only had to look at the reaction from immigrant communities to it, because they recognize themselves in a way that, you know, everyone else is like, wow, okay, that looks funny. But you know, people, particularly Africans, yeah, you know, who live in, whoa, that's my jam. We are going to see that, you know, Because I truly believe we all go to the movies to see ourselves. Yeah. I think so. I think that's why we do almost everything. Yeah. Have children. Yes.

Find people that like us and stay with them. You're so right. I hadn't thought of it that way. Wow. We're just all narcissists. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, altruism. Because you know you're a narcissist if you never shut up about your altruism.

Do you know what I did to help these people? Right. Oh, man. Now I'm backtracking over everything you just said. You don't strike me as the narcissistic type. I'd like to think. But so is this going to be uh are you departing more from carrying the burden of uh history i mean because the butler selma uh i didn't see nightingale but

that seemed like it was a that was a beginning of the shift right yes yes you're right that that was not written as as as race specific and so that was yeah i loved doing that film that was uh that was quite the challenge yeah you played well it's interesting the black nerd is not represented in nothing in film and television no i and boy do they exist yeah i know i've met a couple so yeah yeah yeah no i'm i'm happy i'm happy to give them a platform um what what uh what did when you were in britain i just wanted to ask you like before you moved here and when you were involved did you like how much theater did you do i mean

outside of shakespeare was there is there something i know because it is a theater city but was there did you spend a lot of time doing like off-broadway type of productions oh yeah oh yeah like did you do all the plays that everybody does like maybe not the ones that everyone were you doing pinter were you doing i i did pinter that was actually at drama school but i did productions of things like the god botherers and bouncers and you know i did smaller plays in pub venues right um i did a i actually did a greek tragedy called the Suppliants in a pub venue. And that's actually where the RSC came to see me. And I got snapped up by them.

A pub venue? Yeah. What is that exactly? Like a black box? Like a bar that sort of has a theater attached to it kind of thing. It's quite a popular thing in London in particular. And, but, you know, the tradition in the UK

is one whereby you, and it's less so now because, you know, UK has become basically the 51st state in many ways. But when I was coming up as an actor, you were, you went to drama school and then you wanted to be

in repertory companies where you got to stand in the wings and watch actors like Ian McKellen and Judi Dench giving these great performances. And that was part of your training. You wanted it to be an extension of the three years you've just spent at drama school. And, you know, it was it's treated more as an apprenticeship that then leads into bigger and better opportunities. But you really actually don't want the big opportunities early because the way we all thought about it is you don't want to get found out.

You want to kind of learn your craft so that by the time you have more eyeballs on you, you really know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I sought out those opportunities so that I could learn. I did Anthony and Cleopatra with Alan Bates and Francis de la Torre and got to watch them every night. I did a production of Volponi where Malcolm Story played Volponi and it was extraordinary. I was there at times where you had the Judi Dench's and they would come back and do plays at the RSC. And you would literally, because in Stratford-upon-Avon,

the theatres, the main stage and a smaller space called the Swan, share a corridor. So you could literally, when you had downtime from your production, which you had a lot of when you were a spare carrier, like I was in my early years at the RSC, and you could just nip to the other stage stand in the wings and watch amazing legendary performances just watch five minutes of it and then you're back on stage get a little juice a little hit yeah yeah and you just that stays with

you for the whole of your acting life I bet man it is interesting when you're sort of in the wings and you can see sort of the machinations of great actors. And you can kind of really glean something from it. And you see the nerves. You see the nerves. You see great actors. I had one actor who will remain nameless. And the way he manifested nerves was he would just fart continuously.

And I had to be behind him just as we were about to go on stage and it was farting and burping constantly wow and he and just so nervous and the minute he hit the stage yeah gone yeah and he blamed it on you yeah that's big um but but yeah but there's something to be said for realizing that they're not superhuman it's just about the work oh yeah you know oh yeah well i i know i you you realize that more and more as you get along in this business you're like yeah oh not only the human they're painfully human i know i know i know exactly right well uh you do oh what is the officer of the order of the British Empire? Is that like the one step shy of a knight?

It is. And you're one of those. I'm one of those. I'm an OBE for services to drama. And yeah, that was a real pinch me moment. I had to go to Buckingham Palace to get the honor. And yeah, don't ask me what it actually means. It's just a kind of an

acknowledgement that i i guess i'm doing something right baby steps i'm starting with my obe uh-huh but there were people who who had a problem with me being an obe oh really yeah because you know nigeria was colonized by great britain and and and Great Britain did some real damage to the African continent. We're still dealing with the fallout from colonialism. Yeah. And so, you know, there were those who said, should you be accepting an order of the British Empire? Empire being the controversial word. Empire being the controversial word.

And the way I see it is that, you know, my country of origin, Nigeria, paid in blood and gold and cocoa and oil for what Great Britain is today. So heck to the yeah. I'm going to reap the rewards. You owe it to me. And I would like some all those products I mentioned, I would like for a lifetime. Yes. I wanted to peel some of the gold leaf off of Buckingham Palace while I was there. No, it's all good. And, you know, I'm just trying to do my bit to remind people of the fact that, you know,

Great Britain would be nothing without the rape and pillage of Africa. Yeah, most of Africa, India, a few other places. Everyone had a piece of Africa. There was quite a few colonized, right? The Dutch, the French. The Belgians. Wow, you want to read the Congo story. Oh, my goodness.

It's bad. When was the last time you went back there i was in nigeria last about two two years ago yeah yeah do you still have family there i do a lot of family is it great it is great okay it's so so nice well just okay so what what do we need to do uh you keep you know getting the interesting roles you should go visit your brother in Australia. Yes. I should. I will. I will.

And good luck on your, your sort of journey to knighthood. Thank you. And don't give up on Shakespeare, Mark. I'm not. I'm not. Good talking to you.

You too. That was fun. I like that guy. Gringo opens in theaters tomorrow, March 9th. Go to the tour page at WTFpod.com to get venue and ticket information for my A Few Parts of the World tour, which kicks off in London on April 16th. And what else? What else?

I feel a little nauseous. I'm going to... Am I playing? I'll play. I'll play. I'll play. Thank you. Boomer lives! We'll be right back. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com.