WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 899 - Nell Scovell

Episode Date: March 18, 2018

Nell Scovell has written for a Murderers' Row of television comedies - including The Simpsons, It's Garry Shandling's Show, Murphy Brown, and Newhart - created Sabrina the Teenage Witch, wrote for Vanity Fair and Spy Magazine, and co-wrote the mega-hit book Lean In. But as she tells Marc, and outlines in her new memoir, Nell also worked hard to change attitudes in male-dominated writers rooms and challenge the lazy biases of Hollywood. Also, Bill Hader returns to talk about his new show Barry, where he plays a hitman not unlike himself. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast. WTF,f welcome to it how's it going how's your monday morning going are you okay what's happening i'm recording this sunday i don't know what's happened this morning all right have we turned into a uh bonafide authoritarian country? What's happening? I don't know what the big mystery is with some people. It's an agenda. That's what they want. Authoritarianism. So what do we do? I don't know.

Hope the voting works. I guess if he gets rid of Mueller, we're going to have to at least get out in the streets and do what we can, right? Or are we just going to wear the hat? All right. I have to wear this hat now when? Just outside? Oh, at work too?

Oh, okay. And don't ask any questions about anything? Oh, yeah, you're right. I know. I know what you're talking about yeah yeah it's right so just honor the fear that's what you're saying okay but i can still it doesn't change my my internet right or anything car is the same credit card's all still good everything still works the same way all right okay. Okay. So this hat, is there a choice of colors? Sorry.

No. Okay. This one's fine. Red's fine. It's fine. I never was much for the slogan. You're right. Again, see, I'm asking questions.

Okay. What happened to those people down the street? Did they just, oh, sorry. No, no, no. I'm good. I'm good. No, I'm going to go work in my yard. So look, people die every day and you know some of them and it's one of those

things in life that which i guess we're built to handle and there's so there's certainly no avoiding it but some people depending on the the life we live, go sooner for reasons that may have something to do with how they lived. But in the racket I'm in, some people go hard for many years. And they may give it up, but they go hard. And Mike McDonald, Canadian Mike McDonald, the Canadian comic, was certainly one of those people. And he passed away over the weekend. And I had talked to him recently. And he was, you know, he was doing all right.

You know, I believe he had a new liver. And, you know, he's certainly gone through it. And we talked a lot about that. It's still in the feed. You can go to WTFpod.com slash podcast and find it. It's still up live. We recorded it or we posted it August 10th. And I always liked Mike.

And over the years, I would see him occasionally. I can't say that we were close, but not unlike many people in my business. We see each other here and there on the road, you know, run into him at clubs. But I always liked him. He was always a very, back in the day, a very disgruntled, aggravated, simmering, explosive, but lovable guy. And, you know, he battled a lot of things and his health was not great but when i talked to

him it was certainly better and he seemed to have some peace in his life and now he's uh he's passed away and i just wanted to draw attention to that and uh and let people know if you didn't know and also let you know that uh the uh the episode if you want to get to know Mike or you want to hear what I imagine was one of the last full conversations with him, it's there. It's there in the feed if you go to WTFpod slash podcast. And for some reason, when I was driving over here, this song had came on in my shuffle in the car. And I don't know that I'd ever paid attention to the lyrics. And I was thinking about what I was going to say, you know, about Mike and about death and about, you know, choosing a way of life or having a way of life choose you that may not be the best,

the best idea. But sometimes because of troubles of the mind, troubles of the heart, Sometimes because of troubles of the mind, troubles of the heart, or just a full on fury of misguided passion. And, you know, you get fucked up. And, you know, I was just listening in this. This song came up and I'm going to read it because it is by one of the great bards, one of the great American poets. And I read it over after listening to it, and I thought it was appropriate. I thought it was appropriate for many of us. So this is Like a Soldier by Johnny Cash. With the twilight colors falling and the evening laying shadows,

hidden memories come stealing from my mind, and I feel my own heart beating out the simple joy of living, and I wonder how I ever was that kind. But the wild road I was rambling was always out there calling, and you said a hundred times I should have died. Then you reached down and touched me and lifted me up with you, so I believe it was a road that I was meant to ride. I'm like a soldier getting over the war.

I'm like a young man getting over his crazy days. Like a bandit getting over his lawless ways. I don't have to do that anymore. I'm like a soldier getting over the war. There are nights I don't remember. In pain, it's been forgotten. And a lot of things I choose not to recall There are faces that come to me

In my darkest secret memories Faces that I wish would not come back at all But in my dreams parade of lovers From the other times and places There's not one that matters now no matter who I'm just thankful for the journey And that I've survived the battles And that my spoils of victory is you.

I'm like a soldier getting over the war. I'm like a young man getting over his crazy days. Like a bandit getting over his lawless ways. Every day gets better than the day before. I'm like a soldier getting over the war. Rest in peace, Mike McDonald. Today on the show, we've got a bit of a doubleheader. I got a nice long shorty with Bill Hader.

And then after that, Nell Scovell is here. She is a comedy writer who has a new memoir out. She's written for a lot of shows you know. It's called Just the Funny Parts, and we'll talk to her in a little bit. Before I bring in Bill Hader here, I wanted to tell you that I'm going to be jamming with Jimmy Vivino, who's the band leader on Conan O'Brien, the guitar player. I sat in with him the other week. He's invited me to do a few more tunes with him, and I'm going to tell you about it.

This is sort of a long tease, but if you're paying attention and you're listening, I'm going to be jamming a few songs with Jimmy Vivino and the West Coast Blues Soul Rockers Saturday, March 24th at Big Mama's Rib Shack in Pasadena, California at 8 p.m. So if you're in the neighborhood, you want to see Jimmy, who's an amazing guitar player. He puts together a great combo. And a lot of big guys come down and play guitar with him. It's really something to see if you're into that stuff, if you're into that music. And I'm very honored and flattered to be asked to do it.

And I did okay last time. So I guess I'm telling people I'm going to do it and i did okay last time so so i guess i'm i'm telling people i'm going to do it this time so anyways that's happening uh bill hater who i always like to talk to has a new hbo series barry it's premiering sunday march 25th and he stopped by to chat this is me you can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that.

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courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Bill. Bill. Are there any guys that you listen to on records, like comedy, that you ever go back and listen to? Dana Gould's album, Funhouse.

I listen to that sometimes. I remember when I was a PA and I was a runner for this HBO show called If These Walls Could Talk Part 2. Wow. And I had to drive film elements around all day. And I listened. I had that tape and I just wore it out. I just listened to it. Danny Gould?

Yeah. And when I did Vincent Price on SNL, I didn't know how to do Vincent Price. So I told Dana, I'm doing your Vincent Price because I don't know how to do it because he had that whole bit about Vincent Price picking up women. Right. I couldn't help noticing you sitting up here. Why won't you look at me when I speak to you? Yeah, that all started.

And he made me. And I thought that was great. But yeah, I mean, I kind of grab like little things here and there. In the shuffle? In my shuffle? Yeah, in the shuffle, like a Richard Pryor thing. Oh, that comes up on my shuffle. I had one of those today.

Schimmel. I've been listening to Robert Schimmel. Oh, yeah. I haven't listened to much Robert Schimmel. Yeah, he's very funny. Yeah. I mean, again, you know, I don't know if it ages well or not, but it's still funny. Yeah, you also, it kind of has like good music. It takes you back to a specific time. Yeah. I mean, again, you know, I don't know if it ages well or not, but it's still funny. Yeah.

You also, it kind of has like good music. It takes you back to a specific time. Yeah. Like some Bill Hicks stuff is like that for me where it's like, if I have friends in the car, they're like, what the fuck are we listening to? And I'm like, I don't know, man. When I was a sophomore in high school, this really made me laugh because I was really angry.

Yeah. You know? Oh, they can't lock in? I think they equate him to people who copied him. Oh, yeah? Sometimes. And I go, no, no, no. He had like this humility that those people don't have.

Right. He would always kind of call, you know, say, I play birthday parties and stuff. You know, kind of saying like, I know I'm a bit. Over the top? Over the top. And I'm a little angry. And I'm like, there was an awareness there that i appreciate awareness that he could be interpreted as being preachy preachy and like

i know i get to the fart jokes i know you guys you know we're gonna land on uh dick joke island that's what we're working towards we're working towards dick dick joke that was yeah we're shooting in i can't remember i can't remember the imagery but it was like it was his explanation for how the show would yeah he's like don't worry we're building to dick joke island yeah he that thing where that woman goes you suck you've seen that right oh yeah i think so he goes you suck and he just fucking unleashes just holy hell on this woman oh you mean in a real thing a real thing in the audience yeah where he's like he's like he goes go to a dot he goes go to madonna's concert go someplace good and then afterwards he just goes god i really dug myself into a hole here and the rest of the thing is just him going oh man what did i and people are still now the

audience is shouting tons of shit out at him just debate him and he's just going like ah what did i do yeah yeah and that's why i go that's the difference between him and some of the people who maybe copied his thing yeah yeah there was a certain type of comic at that time who would get stuck in a Hicksy thing. Yeah. I think I was guilty of it for a few minutes where you just kind of lock into that. Yeah. And then you can't carry it. But there's nobody really pushing the envelope like that.

I mean, I think Stanhope does, but there's not that many people that can live in that world. Yeah. I heard David Cross sometimes. Sometimes. That was Fred's bit, the Nicholas Fane thing he used to do on Update was a bit of that David Cross. Can you, I just,

I mean, this happened today. I mean, can you, I mean, I can't do it the way you did. He would do Nicholas Fane with no cue cards or anything. And I remember when I go, are you doing David Cross? And he just kind of goes, there's a bunch of people. I know, he said he lumped me in there once. The character.

I was flattered. Yeah, the angry guy. Yeah, angry comic guy. Angry comic guy. Yeah, I'm not as much anymore. It comes back sometimes. It's been coming back lately. You think that's an important thing, like the anger part in comedy?

Now we get into the... I think that a lot of guys I know are cranky. Yeah. Some are angry. But like the nature, the angry comic, I don't know, like outwardly angry? Yeah. No, just like Francis, I remember talking to Apatow about, because I work at South Park sometimes, and he goes, those guys are still good because they're still so angry. Yeah. No, just like, like for instance, I remember talking to Apatow about, cause I work at things still like whether whether it affects your life or not if you're driven to to be angry about injustice yeah it's probably a good thing you know whether it's really about injustice or not if you want to

place your anger in that area yeah then yeah i think that's helpful yeah yeah are you you're not an angry guy though really i guess not no i i i get yeah i mean i i'm like one of those people i would get angry about a thing that and then very quickly people go oh you really don't know what you're talking about and then i go okay yeah i should calm down and i'm just repeating shit that my really smart friends just said and they're calling me on it and i'm like well i don't know because I didn't ask that question to my friend. That's your defense? I'll get back to you.

Let me ask him so I know what my opinion is. I was that way. My friend Nate said that if there were two guys that were really convincing about the flat earth thing, he'd go with it. I know. I would be very, like if someone's really, because my, I don't know, my dad was very much like a kind of a contrarian type person.

And so anybody like that, I always just believe, you know. Right. I remember going to see the movie The Abyss. Yeah. And there was a part. The water movie? Yeah, the water movie. And there was a part. The water movie? Yeah, the water movie. And there was a part where Ed Harris is having problems in his marriage,

and this metal door is about to shut, and if it shuts, he's going to drown. Yeah. And so he sticks his hand in the thing, and it catches his hand, and you're like, oh, God, his hand got caught. But no, his wedding ring stopped the door. So the water again saved his his life yeah and i'm nine years old watching this and my dad's theater and out loud my dad goes oh get it for some reason that just switched the circuits in my brain of that's lame don't ever do that

where everybody else was very emotionally moved by it i mean i was just get it it was a weird moment where you go oh oh okay that's stupid don't do that he was like i don't get it that's just like on the nose yeah didactic storytelling that's where the room uh happens underwater and there's yeah there's some sort of living aliens in the water and they're there there's water arms and things yeah there's a sort of living aliens in the water and there's water arms and things yeah there's a water face it's a

oh yeah the water face James Cameron movie actually better than the movie is the making of the abyss because you know Ed Harris almost drowned he did?

yeah there's a great making of like a two hour long making of the abyss of the abyss? it's kind of better than the movie yeah just like how hell it was

making that movie did you see that Jim Carrey doc? no i haven't you didn't watch it no i haven't i don't know why i haven't watched it i think i think i just i think anything having to do with show business or anything having to do with people i kind of know or comedy i tend to like go uh i'll watch that a little later i'm gonna watch the part nine of the world at war. Because all these people are dead. I don't know any of these people. Do you know what I mean? The thing comes on and now it's like I watch a thing and I'm like, oh, that's what McBrayer's doing.

Well, that's why he didn't give back to me. Oh, he's been in Vancouver. Oh, right. He's doing that. Oh, he was in fucking berlin that's why he didn't give that oh okay yeah you know i just saw that movie mute yeah yeah that was wild rod's not so cute in that rod is insane in that yeah he starts out cute and then he starts out cute not not cute rod very quick in that movie yeah turns i like it i like watching unhinged rod he was in

a play i saw called grace that he was totally insane in with Michael Shannon. Oh, really? They were, yeah, it was great. And he did it? He pulled it off? Yeah. Just seeing him nuts was great. Yeah, I guess he doesn't do it as often as he should.

I like it. I like watching him kind of play unhinged. I texted him that. I said, I watched Mute. I like seeing you unhinged. He was like, oh, thanks thanks like the cutest reply parts you know he's just he's like just the sweetest guy you know is he in real life yeah yeah i've never talked to him oh he's the nicest never had him in here i don't know why oh you should totally have him in here he's the best i don't know why it

hasn't happened he's one of my favorite people he's such a such a good great just a good guy so what have you been doing? You've been working on this Barry thing for the last year? Yeah, for like, well, no, I've been working on this. When did we pitch it? We pitched it before I shot Trainwreck. So yeah, 2014. Have you been in a movie recently?

I don't know. I don't think so. It's not out yet? No, I did a movie called Noel with Anna Kendrick, but that's not going to come out for a while. How was that? It was fun. Yeah? Yeah, it was a big Christmas movie.

And, uh... You think it's going to come out around Christmas? Not weird if it didn't. That's why I shouldn't run a studio. I'm like, let's bring this out in the summer. Like an asshole. That's me in the meeting with a bunch of people we're gonna take it out in the summer like a bunch of dipshits what do you think who'd you create Barry with Alec Berg who does he did well he worked on

Seinfeld forever he did Curb Your Enthusiasm with Larry David. And then the past couple of years, he's done Silicon Valley. He's the big guy. Oh, okay. He and Mike Judge do Silicon Valley. He's a showrunner guy. Yeah. Very smart guy.

You guys came up with it together? Yeah, yeah. We just sat and I got a development deal with HBO. And then they said know turn something in and so he and i and we had the same agent yeah and i go i don't know anything about putting a show together and they're oh we get together alec bird and so we sat at a diner and threw it we talked about one idea for a month and a half and then one day we came in and i just said this is terrible and he goes yeah i know what was that

idea it was me playing a guy i went to high school with and it was very like zero stakes yeah it's a lot of like it could be just an episode about him you know looking at his shoes or something and that'll be fun and no idea idea the no idea idea exactly we were putting a hat on a hat on a hat on a no idea idea and so it just didn't it went nowhere and so yeah so then i i kind of out of frustration was like what if i played a hitman and he went oh i fucking hate i hate hitman just the word hitman it's so played out i don't like that yeah you know what was like me like me being like me like me like yeah dumb guy from oklahoma yeah and um and then quickly we got an idea that maybe he went to an acting class and then i was like yeah maybe like acting class it's kind of like therapy

but it's like if you if you took the hitman world and made it, you know, it's all, uh, high stakes, but no drama. And then you, he went into this kind of shitty acting class in the Valley. That's all, you know, no stakes and high drama, you know, and it was this funny world that he wanted to belong to this kind of waiting for Guffman world. But he came from this,

and if we can make the hitman world be very realistic uh-huh violence wise like not cool right you know not cool like not like you know like the slow motion two guns throwing in the air and not not make the the deaths funny or not not like in a glib way just sort of like raw violence raw violence and that it fucks him up and then when i went we went into fit to hbo we're like yeah you know like how an unforgiven like clint eastwood it's like he kills people and it like really fucks him up and he you know has destroyed his soul it'd be like if that guy took an acting class how's that room how that they're like okay they i mean they were great actually they were like no we get it no we see it yeah yeah no you should do it that way like they were kind of like

we just were very clear like we want the violence to be very uh so violence that your character perpetrates like when i shoot people or you know strangle people don't make it funny like you're not a sympathetic guy really no i think he's a confused guy. He's like an ex-Marine who's kind of confused. The way Alec always describes it, he's like, it's like you did all this training in the Marines for something good. So it'd be like if there was someone who trained in dance, like a ballerina or something,

who then to make money on hard times decides to strip. Right. So it's like on hard times to make money on hard times decides to strip uh-huh you know right so it's like on hard times and make money you you do contract killing but you hate it and you want to get out of it but you're really good at it but you you're a sociopath basically he's figuring that out he doesn't think he is that's a big question of like is he a good person or is he a bad person so that justified is there scenes where he justifies what he does because the person he's killing is bad yeah yeah that's why that steven root is plays my kind of uh you know hitman agent guy or whatever this guy your manager my manager

yeah and that's you know he's like no this guy's a bad guy and i go but i met him and he seems really nice and it's like no no no no no no, no, no, no, no, no. You don't meet these people. Like, you just have to go do it, you know. And Henry Winkler is in it. He plays my, the acting coach. So it was very funny, like, because Henry, have you met Henry? Yeah, great guy.

He's like the sweetest guy in the world. Yeah. Oh, hello. I don't know you, but can I give you a hug? You know, he's that guy. He's so sweet. And then he plays, you know, the first scene he shot was him yelling at an actress played by Sarah Goldberg. She's amazing in the show.

And we went, Henry, you got to really go at her, you know, take three or four. I was like, Henry, you got to really go at her, you know, take three or four. I was like, Henry, you got to really yell at her, you know. And he goes, oh, let me get this straight. So this man is an asshole. I said, yes, Henry. And he went, got it. And then he fucking unleashed this thing at this poor woman where she really started crying. And we all were like, whoa.

I had no idea that guy was in there you know so he's he's like rod and mute you know these nice guys get to he's got it in there he's got it in there we all have it in there someplace sure yeah he made her cry for real yeah well she was an amazing actress but he really went out yeah did you use that take yeah yeah yeah but she was i think you know she was in the think, you know, she was in the scene. I don't think she was like, Henry, why are you making me cry? Right, yeah, yeah. She was, she's this amazing actor who was kind of in the scene.

It was acted correctly. Yeah, she was listening and reacting in character and it went great. What has she been in? She, Sarah Goldberg was in a show called Hindsight, which was on VH1, but she's mostly known for, uh, she was nominated for an Olivier award for Clybourne Park. A lot of Broadway, a lot of things. Oh yeah.

But she's amazing. She was one of those people that came in and just auditioned and we all were like, uh, how are you? Not a massive movie star right now. Are we just the luckiest people on earth right now? You know, one of those things where, uh, you know, I i'm the casting director is like don't hire her in the room and i'm like but she can't leave because someone's gonna see her and put her in something you know oh really yeah she was that thing don't hire her please don't hire her in the room yeah it was that thing where she saw me get

really excited because i just thought she was great and she's like bill you gotta like you know let it sit for 24 hours. You can't just say you got the part after one read. And I'm like, but she's perfect. And you were right. I was right. And I directed the first three. Is that a first for you?

Yeah, that was a thing I always wanted to do, actually. Before comedy or any of that stuff was direct and write and stuff. Were you able to really sink into it directing yourself? Yeah, it was a bit tough. Have you ever done anything like that? Yeah, I did a couple episodes of my show direct. It was hard because I don't know that I got the full experience. Yeah.

Because you're running back to check. You're running back to watch. You're leaning on your DP a lot. Yeah. And you're also kind of, in my experience, it was like there was one day where i didn't have to act and i felt like that was the day where i was really getting right direct you can actually do the directing thing yeah sarah goldberg told me where she said it was very hard because we'd

be in a scene and then she didn't know if i was reacting as a character as a director because i'd make a sour face and she's like oh he hates what i'm doing or is that all right you know like it just put the other actors in their heads yeah right and um yeah i found it tricky but i mean it how did it feel for you i liked it after i got used to it but it was tricky it was kind of like um and we photo boarded everything first so i kind of really did a ton of prep on it. So I was able to kind of like hand off everything. Like, here are the shots, everybody. Now I'm going to act and kind of watch the actors.

Yeah. And did you have the playback machine? Yeah. But the nice thing is I had Alec Berg there. And when he directed episodes, I was there. So it was this nice thing of me walking back to alec going was that all right did am i yeah playing because he's the only other person knows the show as well as i do right we're going for right so and he he's a he's great so he could go one time he was like

me and steven root did a take and he goes that was barely human and i was like all right let's go for another take that That's a bad thing? Yeah, he's like, I don't even think that was a conversation. It didn't even mimic human behavior. It was like two guys trying to remember lines. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was barely human.

We were like, got it. All right, let's try this again. Oh, that's wild. Yeah, because you can get up in your head, right? Oh my gosh, totally. I totally get in my head and then a lot of it's just having to memorize it and then just throw it away. Yeah, well, when you're in every scene, when I was doing my show,

I had to cram my head full all the time. Yeah. And you can't, you know, you just got to do it when you get there. No, yeah. It's great. You either can do it or you can't. Well, my first day of directing i sat down for the pilot of the show and i realized i didn't even thought about how

i was going to play barry i didn't even thought about how i was going to play the character right so i just i just sat there the whole there's a whole scene in the first episode where i barely barely say anything because i'm just nodding and listening because i was just cutting my dialogue because i was like i don't fucking know how to play the guy or is it this or it's that because i hadn't thought about it i've been so preoccupied with creating it yeah creating everything set up yeah does that guy have the right shirt on is this person you know all that stuff but you hadn't thought about how you were gonna play it for the series for the series i i sat down and on the first day was like, wait a minute. How the fuck do I play this?

You know? You gotta make the guy up. Yeah, I know. And then after a couple of takes, figured it out. Yeah. Okay, yeah, this seems right. Is it based on anybody? No, it's, no. And the character changes throughout, which is interesting.

um no and and the character changes throughout which is interesting but it is you know the the kind of um it's not based on anybody emotionally it's kind of i i thought about when i first got saturday night live this idea of being at a a community of people that you really wanted to be a part of yeah feeling like man i don't want to get fired right right yeah i want these people to i i so badly want to hang with this group yeah and those feelings yeah he gets that when he meets his acting class it's like how do i fit in and yeah what do i wear and i'll just shut up and not say much and right you know and and and that's totally how i felt when i got to the show so it was a bit of that stuff oh good and uh you like how they came out i love how they come they came out i the nice thing about it that people said who saw it was that there were the two the things i've heard that made me happy where they go that is not at all what I thought it was going to be. They're like, that is very dark and very kind of emotional and stuff.

And then, and also it has a real kind of narrative propulsion to it, where after each, you know what I mean? Like after each episode, you're like, oh, fuck, you know, what's going to happen next, which. Cliffhangers at the end of it. Yeah, very cliffhanger type thing which i i uh is root funny or serious in this one he's really funny okay he's kind of like those guys from tulsa that i grew up around reminds me of like yeah guys who used to work for

my dad or something he's just kind of like a guy who plays he's a florida guy isn't he yeah yeah but he has such a midwestern vibe about him but he's one of the best actors i've ever worked with he and sarah goldberg specifically were people that when i worked with them i i don't know if you've had this experience you go oh shit i really got to be on my i have are you kidding me i'm barely an actor i have that all the time i'm doing all my scenes with allison brie and betty gilpin'm like, oh my God, what am I doing? Yeah, I had that on this. I'm like, oh man, you know, Sarah Goldberg come over.

She goes, I was working on this last night. And I think, and I go, you're working on it? What do you mean you're working on it last night? Like learning your lines? She's like, no, I know the lines. But I was thinking in this moment, it was like, what? You did what? Okay, whatever, nerd. moment it was like what you did what uh okay whatever nerd like i was such a loser on that and then it was so when you're in scenes with these people who've done you know that kind of

layered up shakespeare and ibsen and all this stuff i I'm like, oh, jeez, I gotta... You can watch them acting. Yeah, I know. I'm like, I need cue cards just to know what I'm supposed to say. It is something to watch, you know, really experienced, trained actors do the thing. Oh, my God. But you're very good at getting into character and doing things.

I like doing it, yeah. Maybe you're just being hard on yourself. I'm always hard on myself. But's that's how i keep but you don't feel like i i think it's just that you judge yourself against where they came from maybe you know what i think it is is that you go i wish i had that discipline you know right i've always been that way where i just go anything yeah i'll go god i wish i had the discipline to fucking sit down and write that you know what i mean you know and i think i get hard on myself in that way and it i mean that's school that's everything you know i mean i at some point you have to accept that you know your process is working yeah yeah exactly exactly no no you

sound like uh millennial say that to me john millennial be like i don't know he's like bill you're doing fine i don't really need to hear about this anymore like i just think uh-huh you're very responsible yeah just relax it's it's weird that your brain that i have a brain like that too where it's just and i mean, my success is what it is, but however I got here, it's how I got here. It's not the easiest way to do it being, you know, when you don't think you're working hard enough or you think there's your things that you're being irresponsible or that you

should put more effort into. But like a lot of times, like waiting until the last minute. Yeah. That's how you get into the thing. Totally, yeah. It's exhausting. It's exhausting and terrifying, but that terror sometimes propels you to do a good thing. Yeah. I always, yeah, I think it was always a feeling of just, you know, when I watched them act or them, you know, that preparation or whatever going like, oh, man, I got to really step up my game. And it's more of just a pressure on myself to beat them because not in any sort of competitive way, but in a good way.

It was the same thing at SNL. They make you better. Yeah. It's like when Marty Short or Steve Martin would come and and host snl you were just like oh jesus you know i remember one time marty short i tried to like i think i tried to improvise something or we add a line and we hadn't told him yet but it was this sketch where i was uh called broadway sizzle yeah and i was playing like this harvey firestein type host of the show and and and he had just sang a song and I go how old are you? And he says

I'm 16 and I the line was I don't know if I improvised it or if they gave it to me they probably gave it to me without him knowing I go are you wearing makeup? And immediately Marty Short goes just street stuff and it was in such a like oh right you're martin short i need to just fucking check myself

it was so fast i just went oh my god just street just street stuff and i just went that's the funniest thing i'd ever heard. And I mean... Out of nowhere. Out of nowhere. Just street stuff. Like, I haven't gotten... I haven't put in a period on the sentence yet. And he was, boom, right back at me.

And you just go, right. Okay, that's why you just stay in your lane, man. Don't fuck with this. You felt like you'd lost the battle there? No, not a battle, but just, you know, you're trying to mess around with them. And then they're like, boosh. They're a bomb. And you go, oh, fuck.

I need to just say the words and not get in the way. In that moment, you knew it? Oh, I knew it. I was like, oh, I'm going to really play around with Marty Short. We're going to have fun. We're going to riff it up. Oh, you're a genius. I'm going to really play around with Marty Short. We're going to have fun. We're going to riff it up. Oh, you're a genius. I'm going to stop.

I'm going to stop. That was all of it. That was the only thing I had. Clearly, it wasn't very good. Yeah. Did you say anything after or you just let it go? Oh, no. No, it was the greatest thing.

I was laughing. I started laughing. Oh, you did? Oh, I was like, that's the greatest thing. I was laughing. I started laughing. Oh, you did? Oh, I was like, that's the funniest. He's one of the greatest guys of all time. Yeah.

The hardest I've ever laughed. He makes me laugh more than anybody. Because he's so quick? I'm friends with him. Just so quick, but just very sweet and very,

yeah, just. He's another guy that hasn't been in here. Oh, my God. I think we've tried. One of the greatest guys in the world. Yeah, I know he is. guy that hasn't been in here. Oh, my God. I think we've tried. Martin Short's one of the greatest guys in the world. Yeah, I know he is. Oh, we got to get...

Who was the other one we were talking about? Oh, Paul Rudd. Paul Rudd, Martin Short. Martin Short. Yeah, Martin Short. He's just... He's so insanely funny. He said to Paul Rudd,

you know, I remember Kathy Lee Gifford did that awful thing with him where Kathy Lee Gifford asked him about his wife. And she goes, you've been married three years and blah, blah, blah. And what happened? Martin Short's wife had passed away. Oh. And she didn't know it or something.

And so, but to his credit, Martin Short didn't say anything to her. He went, oh, it's because I'm so cute. And then at commercial break, he went, hey, just so you know, my wife passed away three years ago and she felt terrible. And I think Rudd sent him an email. Hey, I'm so sorry about that kathleen gifford thing and martin short wrote back i think she thought it was a rerun i mean just so funny so funny just so fast but It's just so fast. But yeah, his book's amazing, I must say. It's such a great book. It's good? Oh, yeah.

When did that come out? That came out a couple years ago. It's phenomenal. That's like one of my favorite. Yeah? His autobiographies. Yeah. I've actually read it and I've listened to it.

And you guys are friends in the world? We're friends in the world. Yeah. He's like a great example of how you should be in this business. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. He's just such great example of how you should be in this business. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. He's just such a happy guy. Yeah.

It's never lost on him of like, can you fucking believe we get to do this for a living? Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah, he's very cool. I got to get more of that. Yeah, I know.

That's why I hang out with him. Where I'm like, oh, right. Yeah. You should be like that. Yeah, yeah. We should be grateful. And it's fun to entertain people he has these Christmas parties and I went to one I've been to a couple of them and one time it was him and the whole SCTV Catherine and Eugene Levy

Dave Thomas and everybody Andrea Martin uh-huh and they put on the SCTV Christmas special and they all just sat and watched it like oh my god there's so-and-so and there's so-and-so and me and, you know, other people, I mean, I was just like, your idols

that are watching them, you know, and they were so normal, sweet people. But they were just nice people. Yeah. You know,

they're Canadian. Yeah, Canadians. Very pleasant. Very pleasant. Yeah. All right, buddy, well,

it was good seeing you. Good seeing you, man. Congrats on the new show my girlfriend watched the trailer and she's excited about it oh that's good that's a good sign

that's a successful trailer oh good she's like that looks funny oh good yeah oh good well we'll see

alright thanks buddy that was Bill Hader Bill Hader he's so funny sweet guy decent dude uh barry his new hbo show premieres sunday march 25th so listen folks uh before we get to nell i'm like i'm a nut bag man i'm an obsessive compulsive nut job i was doing comedy last night i did three sets at the comedy store i wore one of my favorite shirts,

my Filson sort of mustardy, rust-colored flannel shirt. And I'm a guy who carries a notebook and pens. So I stuck a pen in my pocket and I didn't close it. So now there's a fucking ink spot that I can't get out. I have many shirts that have the same markings, but I didn't want it for this shirt. I didn't want it for this shirt. I wanted this shirt to stay pristine. I love this shirt. I rarely wear it, but it looks so fucking good. And I fucked it up it for this shirt. I didn't want it for this shirt. I wanted this shirt to stay pristine. I love this shirt.

I rarely wear it, but it looks so fucking good, and I fucked it up with a goddamn pen, and I didn't know what to do. I dabbed it with alcohol. It was too late. I washed it. I used the Oxy whatever on it, and I washed it. Nothing.

It didn't come out. It's just a spot. It's just a signifier of stupidity. What am I? I can't get a pocket protector. And I knew that i might do it and i didn't know what to do so i went to the internet and i searched for that shirt which has been out of circulation for many years because nobody really likes the color but me i'm thinking

and that turned out to be true because i found one on ebay brand new for like half price with the tag still on so that's where my obsession led me. I had to replace that shirt, so now I'll have two, but knowing me, the one with the ink spot, that will be disappeared as if it never happened. It will be good-willed.

It will be taken away, taken away in a bag. That's what happens. That's revisionism. But then I'll have the new shirt and I'll feel the new shirt, and I'll feel just as good. Nell Scovell has written for a lot of great shows,

and she's been around a long time, and she's hammered through all the all-male writing rooms and sort of had quite a journey, and her new memoir sort of talks about it all. It's called Just the Funny Parts. It's available in stores tomorrow. You can pre-order it now, and this is me talking to Nell Scovell.

Don't be nervous. I read your book. I met you at people's houses who I like. Larry, I didn't really know. But I know Drew Friedman, who I like a lot and then like you know there was people up there that i knew i usually don't go to those things and i wouldn't have never

met you or known you it was one of those weird things and you just came right up to me i know but if you read the book we have so many friends i know right isn't it weird we never met but you're not so much a tv guy i'm not a guy. I'm not really a writer guy. But I've done things with people you know. But the thing I like about the book, because I really don't usually finish books, because I also don't like to do it. We're not taping yet.

Yeah, we are. But don't worry about it. Relax, will you? The reason I don't usually read the books is because then I'll lead you into, you know, like I'll know this stuff too well. And then the conversation becomes different. But I liked the book so much,

I just kept reading it because it was my business. And, you know, I knew people and I liked your story. And, you know, I like reading about show business, but I had not read, you know, I like reading about show business, but I had not read, you know, where this is going in terms of your plight and privilege and career as a woman in this game. And this horrible racket that we all have a love-hate relationship with. I thought it was very, you know, human and compelling.

And also it was helpful. you know uh human and compelling and also it was helpful i mean you go out of your way in this book to tell your story as a woman in show business particularly you know specifically writing and directing but you do give pointers like along the way you do say like you know you do lay things out for people who might want to get in show business for whatever fucking reason well i didn't want it to be prescriptive i didn't want it to be a how-to book right and i don't think there's one path to breaking in yeah um you know my big suggestion is just to write a lot yeah if you want to be a writer sure there's a quote from my friend amy hone the only way to move forward creatively creatively is to allow yourself to be judged.

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Right. And because it's not what you start and it's not even what you finish. Right. It's what you put out there for the world to see. And because what you have in your head might not be what you're relating to the audience. And you need the audience.

Sure. As a writer. Right. And certainly when you're doing specifically writing for audiences, it would help. But early on, I like that there was never a period in your life where it was, I don't care what anybody thinks of this. I don't care what anybody thinks of this. In the sense that some people who write fiction, they're purists, and they're not writing for anybody but themselves or the art of it. Whereas a lot of the writing that you did, it seems, had to hit home.

It had to be like when you started out when you were a sports writer. I mean, you had to grab people. Right. Well, there's that great quote that before you can be a writer, you have to notice something. Yeah. And so you figure out, well, what am I noticing that others are noticing? And what am I noticing that others aren't noticing? Right, right. Yeah.

And that's the better part, the not noticing. Yeah. And I always, I started as a journalist and have kept doing that throughout my TV career, mostly because I always thought the TV career could go away at any moment. It can. Yeah. It did. Yeah, it's all sort of heartbreaking, this sort of, you know, the arc of it.

But yeah, let's go back because it's interesting that you, like even back in college, I mean, where were you born? In Newton, Massachusetts. You were born in Newton. Yeah. So you're always there. Your whole family ended up in Massachusetts. There and New Hampshire, which is sort of interesting because I used to spend three months a year in New Hampshire and that's where Sarah Silverman's from too. So maybe there's something in the water. And Sandler too? Sandler. Yeah. I mean, I know I've been to Sarah's house,

her childhood house. Manchester. Yeah. Manchester. Yeah. Cause we did a gig together. I went over there. She played me on the Larry Sanders show. Oh yeah. They did an episode where a female writer comes in and it was written by a friend of mine yeah um and she kind of based it on me oh yeah yeah so you've known her actively for a long time oh you don't know her no you never met sarah you met her i've met her but you don't know her i do not know her huh isn't that odd why don't you know her well i don't know that many performers right um writers and yeah uh i mean everyone's working so hard right that's true unless you're working on a show with them yeah and it's hard to you know maintain friendships or relationships in this business really i guess it's hard for anybody because

you're busy and you only have a couple of good friends in any lifetime really right what's surprising to me is i thought the people i was friends with yeah in my 30s i would be friends with forever yeah and that didn't work out none of them no some of them but not all of them and i would have thought by 30 you're kind of fully formed yeah you know then they marry people or yeah you marry someone right and then they drift away but so like growing up in new, like I did time in the Boston area. Yeah. Like I know, you know, I know some of those.

I know a lot of those areas. I started doing comedy in Boston. But so how many kids? There was a lot of kids in your family, right? Right. So there were five. Yeah. And I'm the third girl and the middle child.

So it's very, you know, I'm funny. Pay attention to me. Right. So my family was really bookish. Yeah. We didn't watch a lot of TV. You know, the expectation was you would be a doctor or a lawyer. There was no one in my family in the entertainment business.

But everyone was funny. Right. And my dad's really funny. My aunts are hilarious. My sister was once on the couch reading Little Women. And my Aunt Pinky walked by her, tapped her on the shoulder and said, don't get too attached to Beth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clever. Very clever. And my Aunt Jane would tell dirty jokes, which was amazing when you're a kid. Yeah. Sure. It's great to have that one sort of slightly wrong aunt or uncle.

You need them. I mean, it's a role model. Sure. And she got really positive attention, too, for being funny. And I think that was really great for me to see and then it was so I'm a couple of years older than you I was born in 1960 right and so I was just in this sweet spot I get to high school and Saturday Night Live comes on and Monty Python starts airing right I, I was a little younger, right.

In Boston. Yeah. So you were more cognizant. I was in junior high. I remember I watched the first season of SNL pretty religiously. But it must have been different as a high school student when those kind of feelings and thoughts are starting to happen. Right, and you're memorizing the bits and saying them the next day. Oh, and another amazing thing that was just the luck of being born when I was born is if you were born after, let's say, 1975, you didn't have something that I did, which was

I got to watch a late night female TV host. Joan Rivers was guest hosting Carson for carson for years sure i always thought she was way funnier than johnny yeah she talked a little like my aunt right sure yeah and and so that also like was in my psyche so so what compels you to uh you know to to sort of pursue this like so you're watching all these things that we watched when we were kids and the marx brothers and see i marks brothers must have been you must have got that from your dad or from an aunt. Or where did you get? Or Channel 38 and Channel 56.

That's right, in the East Coast. And in Jersey, it was like Channel 11. Yeah, I mean, I'd see that stuff when I was at my grandparents. But I don't remember getting it in Albuquerque, New Mexico. So in high school, did you write? Yes, but I was on the school newspaper and did... But what made you want to write? I mean, what was that moment when you decided that this was something you could do? Well, it was when I realized I couldn't do anything else.

Come on. No, I went into college thinking I was pre-med. I'd always been good at math and sciences in high school. Yeah. And I just kind of hit that conceptual wall of calculus and organic chemistry. And you couldn't get through that. Yeah. That was too hard. Oh, and then, so when I was in college, there was this big push to major in East Asian Studies because China was the awakening giant. So I thought, all right, well, I'll be an East Asian Studies major.

And I took Chinese, which was the hardest thing. It's tonal. And I'm good at languages. I know Spanish and French, and I've studied Russian. But Chinese took me down hard. And one day I come back. Because there's no structure studied Russian, but Chinese took me down hard. And one day I come back. Because there's no structure to it, really, in the same way. Well, you have to hear the different tones.

Right. That's not your bag. So what were you saying? I'm not a musician. So I come back, and my roommate, who was an English major, was reading Mill on the Floss. And I just have this freak out. I speak English. who was an English major was like reading Mill on the Floss. And I just have this like freak out. Like I speak English.

I speak English very well. Why aren't I an English major? And so I switched. Oh, that was it. That was it. Now, you went to Harvard for your whole undergrad? Yes. Yeah. So that was, you didn't, it's obviously a great school,

but you actually didn't have to leave town. I know. You just kind of went across the river. And I had three siblings there, too. So you guys were all hardworking, good students. We were. Type A. Thank you.

Yeah. Which must have made your family very happy. Yeah. Like when, did you see Conan O'Brien Can't Stop? The documentary. I think it's always funny when you take a type A personality and instead of putting it in investment banking, you put it in comedy.

It's a bit much, huh? Well, I mean, it's just... Well, that's what The Simpsons is. The Simpsons feels... That's right. That is what that looks like in its purest form. I think that's fair. You know, I've been doing Conan's show for years since the beginning. That is what that looks like in its purest form. I think that's fair.

You know, I've been doing Conan's show for years since the beginning. And it's just, he definitely works twice as hard as someone with a more natural timing. It's a very funny thing to watch him. Because I don't know that this is an insult necessarily, but when he needs to save a beat, if you're tanking on the couch and he's got to step in to lift the segment, he's got to go on a roller coaster. It's always going to be like, whoa. Well, see, I agree he's working hard, but here's how I see it. So my very first job in TV was on a short-lived show on Fox called The Wilton North Report. Yeah.

And to give you an idea of how bad this show was, when I was working on the book, we had a call and asked permission to use a photo from it. Yeah. They have nothing in their data banks about the walton north report to fox the show never existed they have wiped it from their corporate memory no kidding yeah i've been on a show like that i hosted a game show once there's no evidence of it anymore for vh1 oh that's no it's great so So, so Walton North Report, this terrible, terrible show. And the one good thing I got out of it was the two guys in the office next to me who became my best friends out here were Greg Daniels and Conan O'Brien. Yeah.

And, you know, we just spent stupid amounts of time together like you do in your 20s. But one of my favorite Conan stories is I had a friend visiting me, and she's really pretty. And you could see we were sitting in our office. We were right on the same hallway. And Conan starts walking down that day, and he's singing, Oh, I'm the greatest lover in the world. All the ladies love to... Oh, Lynn, Nell, sorry. Didn't know you were in there.

And what I love is Conan was Conan for an audience of two. Yeah, yeah. He's always been that way. Yeah. I was at a birthday party once. It was someone's 30th birthday and Conan was there

and they were opening everyone's packages and he opens Conan's card and he laughs really hard. And of course, Conan's so funny, right? Right. And everyone's like, what did he say? And he just passes it to the next person who opens it and laughs. And finally it gets to me and I open it and it says, please throw back your head and laugh when you read this yes i'm pathetic yeah he you know he's very funny you know yeah i i i liked seeing him sort of evolve and grow i mean i did i started doing his show when i was in 96 so a couple years in you know and he was tangibly

panicked and uh but he. But he figured it out. Yeah. I think that's what Harvard people do. They figure it out. They just keep blasting away. But you didn't start writing comedy. You weren't in The Lampoon. You didn't go to-

No, I was terrified by The Lampoon. I went to one comp meeting and they scared me off. What does that mean, the comp meeting? Well, because it's Harvard you can't just sign up to do something like you should be able to do because you're interested you you've got to compete oh to get on the board so I went to this comp meeting and they talked about how many pieces you had to write I think it was was eight pieces. But the process was they would throw it on the ground and people would write comments on the back that others could read.

It sounded like it had real humiliation potential. Right. It's sort of a baptism in fire thing, you know? Right. And I was happy writing sports for the Crimson. So that's what you ended up doing. Yeah. So you bail on humor. Now, was Conan there at the time? Did you know Conan in college? Was he?

He was a freshman when I was a senior. Okay. But you didn't know each other? No. So you decided to focus on writing for the paper? I did. And I was an associate sports editor, and the sports editor was Jeff Toobin. Yeah, oh, really?

Yeah, we all know as a CNN analyst. He's a lawyer, right? Isn't he a lawyer? Yeah, but, well, he went to law school, but he wrote the OJ book. Right, yeah, I know, I know. He's on CNN all the time. Yeah. But he was a sports guy.

He was, and he's one of the most entertaining people on the planet. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he's great. And then senior year, I went pro. I got hired by the Boston Globe to cover high school sports. That's right. That's when you were mentioning all these towns that I had found myself in performing one-nighters of comedy.

Marblehead and Bourne. Sure. I don't know where Bourne is, but I know where Marblehead is. I know where Fall River is. I know where Lemonster is. And how to pronounce it. Sure. Yeah. I don't know where Bourne is, but I know where Marblehead is. I know where Fall River is. I know where Lemonster is. And how to pronounce it. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah, Saugus. Saugus. Saugus. Yeah, I used to work in Saugus. A few gigs out there on Route 1. I know that area. I know those places. Yeah, I was all over that town.

But so you were doing that. You were running around covering high school sports. High school football. And this running around covering high school sports. High school football. And this was pre-climate change, so I was freezing my ass off. Yeah. And I always liked working. I liked earning a paycheck.

That gave me a sense of value and worth. And I could not get out of college fast enough and just start. It's also fun to get out in the world and have that experience of driving places and covering things and seeing different towns and how different people sort of live. And New England is full of colorful characters. Yeah, but they don't play sports. So when you ask things like, you know, can you talk to me about the game? And they say, we said we were going to do it and we did it. And that's it?

And that's it. Thank you for your comment. And I was used to, like, the Harvard coaches are all erudite and they would quote Thucydides. And so, you know, after covering high school sports, I kind of thought, maybe I don't want to do this forever. Well, sure. But what's the trick to it? I mean, what was the trick that you learned? I mean, covering sports, it's sort of you carried with you for your life as a writer. I mean, you know, there was, you know, you had to, there is a style to it.

I'm not a sports guy. But like, there is something you've got to do. Right. I mean, it's finding the emotion. And in the, so it's not just a numbers game right and then it's finding the comedy so this you know the sports lead is is you're allowed to make jokes um in a way that you can't in a regular news story right i tell this story in the in um just the funny parts about how i was covering um harvard men's track and they were at a big regional tournament.

And after the first day, they were tied for second. And I just thought, like, the comedy gods had given me this lead, which was, if a tie for first is like kissing your sister, then a tie for second is like French kissing her. And I turn it in, and the editor's like, we can't run this. This is offensive. And that's when I say that if you're in comedy and you've never offended anyone, then you haven't gone far enough.

And if you always offend people, then you're an asshole. Or a professional comedian. Yeah. people then you're an asshole or a professional comedian and and i moved to new york and i mean the big lucky break for me was spy magazine came along just as i was entering the the workforce yeah that was um that changed the entire culture i think spy magazine i mean i what year was that 86 yeah like i mean that that was like the cutting edge sort of post lampoon satire magazine right and it was really um taking the air out of of the puffed up balloons of the culture it was a specific you had an agenda to to level the rich and snooty.

Yeah, and you know, our favorite short-fingered Bulgarian, I mean, that came from Spy. You guys picked on him pretty heavy back in the day. Very heavy. And by the way, he had other like joke names.

There was Queensborne Failed Casino Operator, but that didn't catch on. Too wordy? Too wordy. I always kind of liked that one. Yeah. Failed casino operator.

Sure. So Spy was great. And then- What did you do for Spy exactly? I was the first reporter they hired. And I wrote a piece called Too Rich and Too Thin about these society women who were both. And one of my favorite pieces was I got this idea to stand in front of Lincoln Center at like quarter of eight and ask people, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? people, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? And then I took down how many gave me the punchline,

how many gave me directions, how many gave me wrong directions, and one person who gave me the wrong punchline and said, study, study, study. So then I got hired away by Vanity Fair. Tina Brown called me, offered me more money than I ever thought I would ever make in my whole life. And so I was working at Vanity Fair, and I was writing, she would call them, which were mostly visual or short pieces with a visual component. And then one day I bumped into an old spy editor who said to me, I don't mean this as an insult, but I think you could write for TV. And that truly was the first time it ever occurred to me.

Really? You never thought about SNL as a writer's show? You never thought about any of that, about TV as an occupation? No, I thought about like movie writing, screenwriting. Sure, you heard about that yeah yeah but not tv right not tv i guess i guess that makes sense like you know because the in the the arc of the book is really in dealing like i guess the the sort of boys club nature of things you you you did see in in college and at the sports writing for sports i would imagine but

when did it start to you know really start to. But when did it start to, you know, really start to affect you? When did you start to be aware of it in a way that, you know, you, you realize it was a liability or that you had to fight, uh, just being a woman? Well, I thought, I thought we had fixed equality when I got out of college in the early 80s. I really did. And I thought Gloria Steinem had led the fight. Everything was good. Everything was good. And I read the book Backlash and was like, okay, that's happening to some people.

So I didn't go into it thinking my gender would either help or hurt me. Right. Into writing. I do remember, though, on that first job at Wilton North Report, after it got canceled, I was sitting with Greg and Conan and these two other guys, and we were talking about what should we do next and what shows. And one of the other guys, this guy Phil, said to me, well, you're lucky, Nell. And I said, why am I lucky? And he said, well, every show's looking for a woman.

And I said, a woman and nine guys. How does that make me lucky? So even, I guess back then, I sort of understood that the odds were not in your favor. Yeah. If you were a female. Sure. And that, by the way way that's the perception from men is i was lucky yeah there's a slot so if i can get that slot right it's like the the affirmative

action hire yeah the token yeah the token yeah well you know i mean i i i've been guilty of it i mean after reading when i read the book like i know that i did a show on ifc for four years and we didn't have a woman writer and you know and i and i felt bad and i felt bad i only had one woman director but but my writing room was small and i made excuses like you yeah you said but uh but you know we we learned we evolved your show might still be on the air if you had hired women i was in full control of that. Okay. But now I'm on a show where I'm surrounded

Oh, with glow. Yeah, that's great. by women on the creative, on the technical and in front of the camera. It's a lot of women. Yeah. And do you feel like

it makes a difference? Sure. I mean, you know, I don't know that I noticed, you know, my, I guess in the writer's room or whatever you get it. There is a boys club nature to it. I'm not really that kind of bro guy.

But, you know, there there is the fear that you won't be able to be, you know, the pigs that you are. Yeah. If you have a woman. But that turns out to be a good thing. It's maybe good that you don't be the pigs that you are. But but no Although I do love there are a couple of times where I've been

in those situations where the guys forgot I was there and so they said the thing you shouldn't say. There's one super famous comedian whose name I would not mention who I'll never forget saying

the best thing about being famous is you forget how tight teenage pussy is yeah yeah and that and how'd you respond to that well I just I I love being in those moments because I feel like that's the real thing well yeah but right it's the real thing that needs to be corrected or it's a real thing of like i'm glad i got to observe that you know i think that's the tricky thing about you know because then there's a sort of like hiring women who can hang with the guys you know but it seems like that that's not really what needs to happen either right because then it becomes a a harassing atmosphere you have to put up with this shit right you know the uh a working space

of respect where you know yeah i mean that's that's what the evolution is towards you know not sort of like ah she's one of us she can take it and then you go home and feel like shit yeah no that's true i think a lot about david foster wallace's um commencement speech which is called this is water and it starts with a joke about two young fish are swimming along and an older fish swims by and says, how's the water boys? And one fish turns to the other and says, what's water? And it's bias is all around us and we're swimming in it. And I've been biased and and you've been biased and the more we recognize that and acknowledge it and call it out the more progress we can make yeah progress and also

there it's sort of like uh it's one of those things where you don't know in that in that joke in that story like you don't know yeah you know you're like i guess that is that yeah you know you're so set in your ways or you're setting your habits or culturally or you know it's always been the way you remember it right and so a lot of times when when something changes your first reaction is be like dog fuck this or you're lucky right right yeah right right well there's that but then it like I think as the as it you know you as you start to be empathetic and see your own part in things,

that you're like, this is the right thing to do, whatever that is. But when you started, so the guy from Spy says you should write TV, and then what do you do? Oh, so I write a spec script. Yeah, for?

It's Gary Shandling's show. Oh, yeah. Because I should have written one for you know the cosby show which or was the big show at the time but my favorite show was it's gary shandling show which broke the fourth wall i actually like that show better than the larry And I got an agent off my spy articles. Yeah. And they sent, it was Gavin Pallone, who you might know. And Gavin also represented Al Jean and Mike Reese.

And Conan? Yes, he does. Yeah. So he was, this is when Gavin was a manager at UTA? No, this is, he's an agent at ICM agent at ICM, like maybe just barely not an assistant. Huh. And so he sends my spec script to Mike and Al, and they give it to Alan Zweibel. And then I get a call from Gavin saying they bought it, which it's like you're a rookie

and you, in your first at first at bat hit a home run right so they said well they want to fly you out they'll give you notes on the script and and i said wow that's great so like the next week um you know in in i think it was maybe sunset gower and you know i meet gary who um does like a double take when he sees me in Zweibel's office. Like, what is this girl doing here? And Alan said she wrote that spec script we liked about the party line. And Gary says to me, you write like a guy. Which at the time was a huge compliment uh-huh right yeah and now like

i look back and kind of think that's the problem right yeah now when you when you when you're putting this together and you you know you're having this awakening or these moments of awareness around this stuff i mean at the time but how do you frame that in your head now? I mean, he was still giving you a compliment, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, and I love Gary. And to finish the story, they end up, he didn't feel like giving notes that day.

So we said, can we do this some other day? And we ended up playing ping pong on the set. And you can play. I can play a little. And then I went home and they decided not to buy that script and they asked me

to do another script. The pitch was two words, haunted condo. Right. Pretty funny. Yeah. And so I wrote another script and they didn't make that one either,

but they paid me. Right. So that was the first paid gig. Yeah, that was my first paid gig. And that got you what? That got you out here or did it, you know, not yet? Not yet. Wilton North got me out here.

Yeah. And then I kept going. And then when that was canceled, I go back to New York. And then I try to get on Letterman. And that's really the holy grail, right? To write for David. To write for Dave. He's the funniest man on TV.

Right. And I send him my packet, and I don't hear anything from them, but the Smothers Brothers did a 20th anniversary special in 1988. And they brought back all the old writers like Steve Martin and Bob Einstein and Mason Williams. Wow. And the show did so well that CBS picked them up for another five, six episodes. So they couldn't get the same staff. Like Steve Martin's not going to come do it.

So, again, I have no idea how it happened. They got my material. I mean, I know my agent sent it. And I get a call, do you want to meet? I mean, the guy was in New York. So we meet, and there was a little misunderstanding. He had read my Letterman material, and he thought I wrote on New York. So we meet and there was a little misunderstanding. He had read my Letterman material and he thought I wrote on the show. So I had to explain that, no, that was just a submission.

But secretly I was thinking like, oh, he thought it was good enough to be on this show. Right. Did you find you got along with everybody? I mean, did you look up to them from before? You were probably, I was too young. I was too young. Yeah. And in fact, when they asked me if I knew about the Smothers Brothers, you know, I said yes and then ran to the Museum of Broadcasting. Right.

That's what you had to do. I remember when I went to watch Woody Allen's variety show, when he did a variety show on NBC or somewhere. Like there were certain bits of television. There was no YouTube. You had to go down to that museum. And you had to wait sometimes to get a booth. he did a variety show on NBC or somewhere like there were certain bits of television there was no YouTube you had to go down to that museum and you had to wait sometimes to get a booth and then they had a they had to call up the stuff you had to tell them what you wanted yeah Jack Parr I went to watch Jack Parr oh that's great because I think I was auditioning for a hosting job but I wanted to see oh that's smart how you. How, you know, how the, you know,

the history of it. But that's so funny. You had to go do that. I did that. And they were, I was so relieved because they were really funny. Right.

Like genuinely. And they, you know, it's such a smart way to do a sketch where you start with a song, you interrupt, you do your bit. Yeah.

And bits never have good endings. They just go back to the song. Right. Big finish. Everyone applauds. Right. It everyone applauds right brilliant yeah and that was their thing that was their thing yeah and so like your brain your type a brain was sort of like i get how this works yes i can write i can write within this pat this system this context so you get the gig and what happens you move to la then or what not Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. I don't even buy a car. I end up, my first night there, I'm having dinner with Tom Smothers and he says, well,

I got a maid's room in this huge place that CBS rented for me. And it was pretty cool because it was in this apartment house right near the Chateau. Yeah. And Betty Davis lived there. Oh, wow. So like one of my first days working in Hollywood, I'm like waiting for the elevator with Betty Davis. Come on. Yeah.

And Chris Guest lived there too. So it was very cool. That's great. Yeah. So you saw Betty Davis. So that's like. I know. That means something.

It's what's wild about hollywood if you if you do have the fascination or the bug when you come out here and you just see the history of it and people yeah around it's it's kind of heavy it's kind of great yeah this was just around the corner from where the garden of ala um apartments were and that's where like dorothy parker lived and so it was that was pretty fun so you you moved into Tommy's Maids Quarters? Yeah, for a while. Once we went into production, I moved out. So, but, and also like in the book, you sort of like, again,

are looking at these events in your life through the lens of an enlightened woman now. You know, so they're, you know, the way you read them now that, you know, that there's some, to put in context, the Ma the maid's quarters like well i was working for him it did you know it did feel weird but you know you did feel on some level that there was a subservience that was expected right i i think it's unique to hollywood they're just there aren't the same rules no there's no there's there no, there's not real rules.

Yeah. It's sort of a, you know, the system was set up because you're making dreams out here, you know, and you're making something that transcends reality. So, you know, what are you willing to do for that, to be part of that? Right. And yes, we mess around with reality i mean it's one of the reasons i think you know a real estate guy like donald trump was um attracted to coming into show business well well yeah but he's also uh he's like a pt he's like a hustler he's like

you know a snake oil salesman you know he's a big he's he's always been a show, he's like a hustler. He's like, you know, a snake oil salesman. You know, he's a big, he's always been a showman. That's always been part of it. But yeah. I mean, the sexual harassment of women is codified in Hollywood. And we even gave it that cute name, the casting cast. Right, I've talked about that with people before.

It's been this way since the beginning of this business. You know, I mean, you know, it was, they knew what they were, they were taking advantage this business you know i mean you know it was they knew what they were they were taking advantage of uh you know a lot of talented people beautiful people are are vulnerable they're insecure some of them are fucked up because of it and there was always i think a lot of uh predatory nature to it yeah to the this sort Faustian deal women had to make to be part of this world. But do you think the casting couch would have been as acceptable if they called it the rape sofa? No, I don't think, I think that's not as cute. Not as cute.

That didn't catch on. I tried to get that to go. That didn't catch on. I tried to get that to go. But I thought that, you know, in handling your own story about that, your own Me Too story, you know, with Jim Stafford, of all people. I know. It's so cheesy. Oh, my God.

Why couldn't it have been Glen Campbell? I mean. But I thought the way you wrote it, I don't know how much, I mean, I imagine you thought about it quite a bit that because it was one of those situations where the lines blurred and you would follow through with something that you didn't want to follow through with, but you were in the situation and you did. But the way the one detail you put in there was pretty great. I know. It's all real real it's just a fact but yeah but but what you chose you know to not make it you know you know necessarily you know uh necessarily more sordid but to make it pathetic was that you know or funny same thing a lot of times yes that's true uh it was that the the hairpiece moment which i thought

was pretty pretty brilliant that was pretty good because it was awful yeah you felt awful for you you know he was kind of awful yeah you know he tells you what you need to know about him yeah um you know i spoke with a lawyer and they they said look, if this is truth, that's a defense. Just don't include any details that you're not 100% certain about. So this was a long time ago. And I'm not going to give everything away now, but I'll just say because I want people to read the book. But I do find out that he's wearing a hairpiece. Yeah.

So I started Googling, like, does he wear a hairpiece? Like, am I certain of that? And I did find this book written about rock stars. And there was a chapter about vanity. And he's in there listed under musicians who wear hairpieces. Oh, good. So you found it. So I've got backup on that.

I'll tell you, if that's the only thing, if he comes after you for that, he's got bigger problems. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like if that's what he locks into, it's like, yeah,

the other part was true, but fuck the hairpiece. Well, I've had no contact with him, and I'm going to guess he, quote, doesn't remember it the same way. Right, of course. But here's so... But let's set that up a little bit.

So you got the job in the Smothers' Room, Smothers Brothers' Writing Room, and a series of events happened. There was a change, right, in staffing, and Jim Stafford, who you didn't sense liked you to begin with no he did not that you were really the the only woman in the room and this was a bunch of uh well at least under his guidance was just sort of a boys club but but yeah no mason williams was amazing mason was a mentor yeah and and jim was this guy who we'd be sent off to come up with cold opens over the weekend.

And I'd walk in on Monday with my ideas. And he would say, oh, thanks, Nell. But some of the boys and I sat around the pool this weekend. And we worked it all out. So you can't be good at your job if you're not even participating. Sure. And that was the way he had set it up. And he's just a, he was a singer.

He wasn't even really a writer, was he? No, he was a novelty act. Yeah. I mean, he had a hit that Spiders and Snakes. I remember that was in junior high. Yeah, it was huge. I don't like Spiders and Snakes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I really don't like Spiders and Snakes. snake yeah yeah well i really don't like spiders and snakes but but ultimately what happened was that you know you still despite knowing what was going on you felt compelled to try to keep pleasing these people sure him right and that's part of you know that's type a and that's the subjectiveness of this business too, right? Like your jokes will be funnier if the people like you. Right. So then you just found yourself in an awkward situation. Well, he manipulated me into an awkward situation at the wrap party.

Yeah. It's weird. I've never really talked about it. Isn't that, you know, it was a long time ago. And so I always laugh when people say, well, why didn't they bring it up earlier? It's weird. I've never really talked about it. Isn't that, you know, it was a long time ago. And so I always laugh when people say, well, why didn't they bring it up earlier? It's, you know, it's hard. It's just, and I'm privileged and had a lot of success. Yeah.

And even I couldn't do it because it's, well, for me, it's, I don't like admitting I was a victim anyway. Yeah. And it's hard because I in those situations that, you know, whether you are you become paralyzed in the moment or you act against your own self-interest because you think you should that like it I imagine in your mind that it it clouds things a little well I was really touched by your story about your philosophy professor and by the way one of the things about me too is I've had so many male friends open up and tell me stories that range from you know inappropriate touching from the swim instructor to full-on rape. And I think I don't like the, this is a time for men to shut up and listen. I disagree completely.

I think this is a time for everyone to speak up and to work together. Yeah. No, I agree. Yeah, and I think a lot of us have those stories. I mean, power dynamics, abusive power dynamics happen. Sexualized abusive power dynamics happened in both genders, either way. The definition of power is getting someone to do something that you want them to do. And I was thinking of...

Is that the definition? Well, that's my definition. I like it. A definition. Yeah. So I don't know if this works. You'll tell me. I thought of this driving over as an example of what it's like

to be coerced into something that you might not want to do and how one i would love the point to be made that consent is not the same as she did it right they there there are differences so let's say um you're you're at the bank because you're old and you don't do all your checking online, so you're actually in the bank, when a bank robber comes in, armed, and he rounds everyone up and says, I'm going to put you in the vault. And he tells everyone to march over to the vault and to get in. Now, one person, let's say, is claustrophobic and really doesn't want to go into the vault. But let's say you're that person.

What do you do? You go into the vault because the threat of harm is so great. You're going to that's going to take precedence over other fears. Yeah, I think that's true. My first thought was like, I just make such a scene that like i can't i can't go with yeah um well you might but then other people might say just go along no i get that so then then um you know you're let out and maybe nine out of those 10 people are fine with being marched into the vault but one person person was traumatized by that event.

And, you know, if you went to the bank robber and said, you traumatized that person. And they said, well, that's not how I remembered it. I just asked her nicely to go into the vault. And she walked in on her own accord. Well, yeah, I had a gun, but i didn't point it at her sure and i think that's do you think that's a good example kind of except that like the banker would be like look i'm a fucking bank robber that's true why are you asking me what do you want me to do with him and i'm sorry she got upset what do you want from me think like she could like she didn't fight back.

Yeah. But the threat of harm to your career is real. And that's why you go along with things that you might not otherwise go along with. Yeah. And I also think, right, there's the wanting to get ahead and be accepted and to try to be liked. But there's also, like, I think there's also a, sometimes you comply hoping that it will stop.

Yes. Oh, absolutely. And I think that's that the other side of that is like, okay, if, if, if I just let him do this,

maybe we can put this to rest, but that doesn't happen. And then, then you've, you've fucked yourself more because now you're uncomfortable about that the relationship becomes weird yeah there's no winning it but throughout this book which i don't think we're really talking about is is you know you do give sort of life lessons about you know writing and show business and working with people and and men you trust and women you trust and you

know how hard you know writing for television writing in general is but then you trust and women you trust and, you know, how hard, you know, writing for television and writing in general is. But then, you know. And it's hard for everyone. Sure. Yeah. But, you know, beneath that, you know, there is this other thing where, you know, I found it, you know, sort of disconcerting and horrible when that guy edited your, when you guys were writing with somebody.

Oh, yeah. At Charmed. And he rewrote every. But as a tactic, you know, like when, when I, you know, like, cause I'm not that, I'm rarely that political a thinker, you know, in terms of, you know what I mean? I'm the worst. I, yeah. You know, fucking somebody.

Yeah. For, you know, for the long haul, you know, like that, that, that guy, you know, what happened exactly? He and I were co-writing an episode. It was a sweeps episode for Charm. And you were a staff writer? No, I'm co-EP, and he's EP. And we turn it in.

He loves my teaser act one and two, and he wrote three and four. Right. And then while we're waiting for it to go into production, I get a call from my agent. His contract's up. And they say, you know, they're curious if you'd be willing to step up if his contract doesn't make. So he's probably holding out for more money.

Right. And they're asking to see if they probably lowball you into the job. Exactly. Right. But I'm not going to if they probably lowball you into the job. Exactly. Right. But I'm not going to play this game because I know that helping your boss makes you valuable and threatening your boss does not. Right. So I say, look, I'm not going to entertain any talk until he decides what he wants to do. But I'm pretty sure he got wind of it because the day of our table read, and this is the draft has been in production for weeks.

I sit down and he turns to me, I'm next to him. And he says, you know, I made a few changes last night. I think, okay, no big deal. I open up the script and the way you know a change has been made is there's an asterisk on the margin. For my three acts, there are just all asterisks. I describe it like all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. It's just like I'm all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. It's just like I'm riffling through the papers. And it was really humiliating because, you know, I think it would be very easy for him to have made it clear to the cast and all the executives who come to the table read

that it looked like he had rewritten every line of mine when, in fact he he was adding commas right you know he was changing also to two yeah yeah right right so it was not major changes but just enough to get the asterisk to make it look you look like stupid yeah yeah that was just sort of mind-blowing to me i know but then But then there was the other sort of situation where it's more subtle. Like, what was the writing room where, what was the whole tampon riff? Oh, that was at Letterman. That was my first day at Late Night with David Letterman, which was the NBC show.

And this is 1990. But this is like, so you had, maybe we should go back you did have good experiences i mean you did yes you did you know you wrote for new heart's second show right and that was season and and were there women in the room there uh they didn't make it through the whole season but there were when i got there and you stayed through the whole season i did i hung on but it's so funny to me that you didn't really get to know Bob or anything. Like, you know, my writers,

they were always around, you know, like when, in terms of on set or when needed. But I think it was different then, where you were. And I don't, I never worked on a network show.

Well, I was really, I was shy. I was new. It was my first sitcom. And, you know, decades later, I would watch this TED Talk that Sheryl Sandberg gave where she talked,

the first thing she spoke about is that women need to sit at the table. And it resonated so strongly because I was the one who, instead of sitting at the table, would sit in the chairs around the periphery. So it's both literal and metaphorical, which is why I love it. Right. I get it. For you.

But yeah, it does make sense. But see, like, well, I guess what the point I'm making is that by the time you took the job at Letterman, you know, you had done, you know, a lot of stuff. I worked in the Simpsons

and the Smothers Brothers. But not coach yet? No. No, that came after. But the Simpsons and the smothers brothers and but not coach yet no no that came after but but the simpsons like let's talk a little bit about that because that seemed to be you know a room full of nerds that were respectful of women no no well i i got in on the ground floor because um i the premiere and I called my agent and said, I want to write for the show. It was just so mean. I loved it. Yeah.

And so they brought me in for the second season. Yeah. And I wrote the Fugu episode, the blowfish episode. And it was a really good experience. And it was a really good experience. And I don't tell this story in the book, but I'll tell it now that there were writers pushing for me to be hired on staff. And apparently Sam Simons said, I'm going through a divorce. I don't want any women in the room. And it was another five years,

over a hundred more episodes before another woman wrote an episode after mine. And mine went incredibly smoothly. It turned out to be a fine episode. So that was disappointing. But you do, you seem to find like, you find room for kindness for Simon, you know, in writing about him in retrospect. But that, you know, that seemed, that was clearly. Well, it's called just the funny parts.

I almost wrote just the angry and bitter parts, but it's like eight volumes. Right. Right. I get it. I get it. I get it. But that's really a heinous story that he would keep women out of that room for that long because of his personal feelings that were, but he was clear about it at least. He wasn't pulling any punches. I know. Yeah. Thank you for your clarity.

But I get to Letterman and I did have a lot more experience. Most of the writers, it was their first TV job. Right. And I guess I'm just, I'm just trying to, like,

because it has been up and down, but the Wilton North report, you know, you were friends with Conan and you met these guys. And that was a pro, a good experience. Smothers Brothers,

not good. No, good. Because of Tommy, good experience. Smothers Brothers, not good. No, good. Because of Tommy, but because of Stafford, it got weird and bad. And New Heart was good? Mostly, yeah. Right, but you weren't feeling sexualized or isolated? Well, one of the EPs walked by

and was overheard in the office screaming, women cause nothing but pain. But I don't know. But we don't know if that was his personal life. We think it was personal. No, I made it to the end, so that was good. And that show had this guy, Bob Benditson, who was a total mentor to me and really believed in me

and taught me a ton. So that was, I mean mean that's what you try to find that like that one good person and the bad experience right of course yeah i mean yeah yeah there's always horrible experiences and then you know right yeah if you're in an ensemble or a group of people there will be somebody that will provide a reprieve or some wisdom that you can hopefully latch on to. Right. Well, I talk about when evaluating shows to work on, I talk about the three Ps, which is people, process, and product. And so the people are who are you spending all day with.

The process is, well, how long are the days? Yeah. And the product is, is it something you're proud of um is it and is it something that's popular yeah and those are two different things sure it is very rare to get three out of three and it's really happened once in my entire career which was with murphy brown and which was a terrific experience. And then, you know, you're lucky if you get two. If you like the people and you're making a good product, but yes, the hours are long, so that's sad. But, you know, that's okay.

And then there are a lot of shows where it's just one. It's like the process and the product are not good, but the people are. But it is sort of interesting, though, on the side that you are working in, which I never did and I wouldn't do as a TV writer, is that throughout the book you talk about how you have to be somewhat cynical in a way because of the disappointment and the rejection. in a way because of the disappointment and the rejection and you know your expectations are constantly tempered and and that you know the things that seem great and are going uh don't go for dumb reasons or maybe reasons that you don't even know it's a relentless horrible disappointing life yet uh you know at the end you sort of frame it like uh like a rat pushing a food pellet button it like a rat pushing a food pellet button. I don't know.

Like, I can only think about it for myself. Yeah. You know, that if two of the Ps out of the three Ps aren't happening more than once for me, I'm not fucking doing that anymore. I'm not a type A personality. But, you know, it's like, but it seemed that you sort of leveled off on wanting to direct, and that even the experience. Well, let's talk about Letterman and then talk a little bit about Sabrina, because I was curious about that.

So the Letterman thing, I mentioned the tampon thing because you mentioned it. What happened that first day? Oh, well, I'm the only female writer. I'm the first one since Meryl marco left the show a couple of years before i got there and um one writer stops by my office and we have this really nice exchange we have friends in common and then at the very end he pauses and he like pointed at me and said before this is over i'll see a tampon fall out of your purse and walks away. So I thought, well, that's weird.

Why would he have said that? It is weird. It's weird no matter how you slice it. Yeah. Yeah, and I come up with a theory in the book about why I think he did it. Because you could have also made it, you know, before this is over, I will hear you fart. Like if he just wanted to bring up some embarrassing bodily function. Right.

He didn't have to go to the one thing that singled me out. Right. From everyone else. Right. And then like, you know, that environment is notoriously undiversified. The Letterman Show was. Was. Yeah. Was. Yeah.

Yeah. And, you know, ultimately you did, you know, you wrote a big piece on that. Right, 19 years later. In fact, I was in a, working on Warehouse 13 at the time. The Sci-Fi Channel show. Which I loved. It's such a good show. Well, that's interesting.

Like, you made the, because you were such a Sci-Fi fan when you were a kid. Yeah. You know, and you made us all this time time as a spend all this time as a comedy writer and then you get this opportunity to work on this great little show that what turns out to be the best thing you know it's satisfying thing it was and it was magic and comedy and and mystery it's everything i love um but someone would say make a sexist comment and someone else would go watch out you know nell's gonna write an article about you i would go yeah 19 years from now you're gonna be so sorry right what was that what i can't what provoked the piece about dave well dave gets on the air because he's in this black male sex scandal. And he cops to doing his quote, some creepy stuff.

Right. And that is that he has had sex with women, plural, who worked on his show. Yeah. And that was then the National Organization of Women comes out with a statement talking about how there's a power imbalance. And anytime a boss has sex with an employee, it's inappropriate. And then another one of the executive producers, Rob, speaks up and gives a statement about how he had worked on the show for over 20 years. And it was completely fair and merit-based. Right. And like I said, my soul did a spit take.

Yeah. Because if you want to say, yeah, we fuck over women and we've never had a black person in 33 years work on the show, never late show and late night, never had a single person of color in the writer's room. And if you want to say, yeah, they just didn't fit in or we didn't think they'd fit in. But if you say it's all merit basedbased, then I felt compelled to speak out. Yeah. And I really thought it might end my career. Yeah. What was the piece called?

It was called Letterman and Me. Yeah. And it didn't end your career. No. It did provoke a great conversation culturally. I hope so. That was in 2009. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just like in the book when people read it you can see like because you always wondered if david read it and then you had an opportunity to see dave that was wild and you still don't really know if he read it i mean i think you'd like to believe he didn't but i don't know i don't think he did really like because when he said um congratulations on your book right and i said, you know, meaning lean in, which had spent 16 weeks at number one on the best summer list. Cheryl Sandberg and you wrote. Yeah. And so Dave goes, congratulations on your book. And I go, Dave, you don't know about my book.

And he said, yeah, the one you wrote with that woman. Yeah. Right. So. He's trying to be diplomatic. Someone told him I had written a book that did well yeah so Murphy Brown he had a great experience Murphy Brown was great um yeah and Sabrina how did that work with Sabrina because did you create it what did it mean to be the creator of that show well

it's it was a comic from the Archie universe right um, right. But I created the TV show. Right. But there were certain rules. I had to use certain characters and Sabrina and Harvey, Salem the cat and the two aunts. Yeah. And I begged Caroline Rae to do the show.

I love her. We go way back. Oh my God. She's funny in her bones. Yeah, yeah. She's great. But you only stayed there a year. I love her. We go way back. Oh my God. She's funny in her bones. Yeah, yeah. She's great. But you only stayed there a year. I did.

But after you leave, because you're the creator, you still, you're always going to be a producer, right? Is that how it works? Or just not a producer, just a creator?

You always get paid. Yeah. So that was a good gig. That was a great gig. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you hope for. Although I found out that there was um a man was

supposed to create the show and then fell out at the last second yeah i learned that my deal was 25 of what his deal was i'm like 77 that would have been awesome yeah 25 i know i lived in we lived in a nice house in santa monica but it was only one story 21%. That would have been awesome. Yeah. 25%. Ugh. I know. I lived in, we lived in a nice house in Santa Monica, but it was only one story. And I always used to tell people I'd have a second floor if I'd been a guy. You would have. And then you worked on Monk a bit, NCIS. Oh, I love Monk.

Do you know Andy Breckman? He is one of the funniest people on the planet. No, but was Sharpling there when you were there? Yeah, he's great's great I love Tom Sharpling yeah I that was such a fun room to be sweet and funny that guy I'm gonna give him a call actually I haven't talked to him in a while and then you were able to write for Obama a bit and Hillary a bit you know like this is really taking you to a lot of different places you know doing this job Obama, so he's so funny. And he's, I was once talking about Obama's delivery with Albert Brooks.

And Albert says he's like Carson. Yeah. He delivers jokes like Carson. And he'll repeat a word that he likes. Didn't Albert give you some other advice at some point? Yeah, he's, I didn't, you know, we became friends, you know, in the past decade, but, you know, not forever. And he's, look, but he, especially with the gender stuff, he teamed up with Monica Johnson, you know, to write Lost in America. And I think that's why Julie Haggerty's character is so funny and flawed.

Sure. So he's, I mean, but he's special. God, he's the funniest man. Yeah, and you know, it was funny,

it was one of those things where you appreciated yourself when you were younger and then you got to meet him later in life because of just, real life, not even because of,

but he said something about humanity and about. Right, a fairer sampling of humanity will always produce funnier material. Yeah.

And I believe that. That's touching to me. Yeah. That's why I was saying that the book is, it's not like an industry help book, but there's a lot of lessons that you've learned throughout, not just about being a woman, but just about being in this dumb business

that I think are helpful, in terms of framing how you approach things. Right, and how not to get pushed around, which is, I think, what we're all fighting against. Yeah, yeah. And I think that it seems that the relationship with Sheryl Sandberg that gave you a way of framing and more voice just by watching her

before you worked with her, to sort of look back over your life and then sort of create, you know, this, like a retrospective feminist arc for yourself. Well, what Cheryl does better than anyone is she can get that 30,000 foot view and then zoom into that data point. That proves it. And I tend to get stuck in my own life and I'm looking at all the data points and not taking that big view.

And so she really taught me how to take that step back and see the patterns. Right, right. So- And culturally and in your own life. Right. And some things I did instinctively. So I've had two kids and I tried to hide my pregnancy for as long as I could.

When people ask me if I have kids on the first day of work, I always say, yeah, but I'm blanking on their names right now. Yeah. Because there is, you know, there's a motherhood penalty. Yeah. And women take a hit the second they become mothers, even if it's adoption. So it's not even like, well, you know, you need to sleep more.

Right. And men's pay actually gets higher. That's interesting, because on some level, you know, the idea is that you're not going to be committed to the job or you're going to be pulled away by your children. But but on the flip side of that, you know, outside of the pair of things, they completely expect men to abandon their families because that's the nature of work, of the way that the culture works, is that they'll let the kid and the wife stay at home. You just do what we want you to do. Right, your baby was born yesterday.

You can take that day off, but we expect you in. That is changing, though, because in the rooms I've been in recently, there's a lot of men saying, I got to leave early and pick my kid up at school. Yeah. Which is fantastic. The only thing that's slightly annoying is, oh, he's such a good dad. Right. And I know if I tried to do that, I'd be pulled aside and told, like, do you want this job?

Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Some of this stuff gets complicated. I think you handle it very well in terms of, you know, knowing men that were good and bad and knowing bad men that had good qualities. Right. And knowing, you know, good men that, you know, could be dicks too, you know, I mean, I think that the movement, you know, that the stuff that sort of came from your relationship with Cheryl and also like the way you framed your life in this is that it's all, it's not condemning. It's sort of, it opens up a dialogue. It doesn't close one. Oh, I hope so.

Yeah. I like the book. Like I said, I enjoyed reading it. And it was great talking to you. You feel all right about everything? I feel better. Better. And it was great talking to you. You feel all right about everything? I feel better. Better. Because it's ending.

Oh, really? No, I tell that story. I don't know if you remember about meeting Leno. Yeah. When I'm, I don't know, 26. Oh, the comedian? You ought to be a comedian? So we needed a host for the Wilton North Report,

the show so bad that it doesn't exist. And Conan, Greg Daniels, and I were dispatched to, what would it have been on Melrose? What is that, the comedy store? No, the improv. Okay, so we're dispatched to the improv. Now, bear in mind, Ellen DeGeneres haseres has come in auditioned knocked it out of the park and the executive producer was like nah yeah um so we need a host and we're watching people and we're taking a break in the lobby and jay leno walks in and he's like the biggest star any of

us have ever seen yeah and And he's really friendly. He comes over and we're chatting it up with Jay Leno. And I make some rude comment. And he looks at me and he goes, you're funny. You should do stand up. Yeah. And I was like, what, me? And he said, yeah.

And he gestured toward the showroom and said, don't you look at those people and think I could do better than that? And I said, no, I look at those people and think every one of them is brave. And he goes, yeah, you shouldn't do stand up. That was it. So whatever, like, super confidence, like you need to propel you on that stage. I mean, it's amazing that you can do that. to propel you on that stage, I mean, it's amazing that you can do that. But like I said, after a decade or two, I mean, you get nervous for different reasons,

but not about getting on stage. Oh, that's right, because that one time I met you, you were about to go do a set. Sure, yeah. And you were just like, yeah, I got to do a set in 15 minutes. Yeah. And I was like, what? No, no, I've been doing it

a long time. I panicked for you. I would hope I wouldn't be that, you know, I didn't know how long it would take for it to go away,

but it eventually did. But like, if I was 25 years in and still like, I would, I do that with other things in my mind. But thanks for talking to me

and great job on the book. Thank you, Mark. that with other things in my mind but thanks for talking to me and great great job on the book thank you mark all right folks that's it that's it for for for this episode i think i'll play some slow blues for our uh slow slide into autocracy. Thank you. Boomer lives! Deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.