WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 906 - Ben Harper & Charlie Musselwhite / E of Eels

Episode Date: April 11, 2018

Charlie Musselwhite and Ben Harper are musicians with wildly different backgrounds but a unifying love of the blues. Charlie was there at the birth of rock and roll. Ben grew up immersed in music while his family ran a landmark music store. They tell Marc how their shared interests led to their musical collaboration and their new joint album. Plus, Mark Oliver Everett, also known as E from the band Eels, returns to the show after a five-year hiatus to talk about Garry Shandling, Tom Petty, becoming a parent, and the new Eels album. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fucking ears, what the fuckadelics, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF.

Welcome to it. A big, a big blues show today. It's almost like a blues concert. But, you know, I would not say that Mark Oliver Everett from the eels is uh is a blues artist but i would say that there's a heavy heartedness to it wouldn't you wouldn't you eels fans say there's a heavy heartedness heavy heartness heavy heartedness that's what makes the eels beautiful that's what makes the music beautiful there's a new eels album out. It's called The Deconstruction. It's available now, wherever you get your music. I haven't talked to Mark in a while. He's been here before,

but he's on the show today. And also very exciting, Ben Harper and Charlie Musselwhite. Charlie Musselwhite is one of the originals, man. He's one of the original new generation blues guys from Chicago around back in the late 60s, early 70s. Been going ever since. Ben Harper, you know from his Ben Harper-ness. He's been around a couple of decades now as well. But not as long as Charlie Musselwhite blowing that harp. And this is the second album they've done together it's called no mercy in this land also available wherever you

get music and both of these cats both of these acts are both mark oliver everett and ben and charlie do a tune now i gotta be i gotta be honest with you we do post some of these interviews out of order you know they don't go in the order of i i've of when i recorded them but i will i will tell you this ben harper and charlie muscle white were the uh were the last interview in the garage in the old garage you'll be hearing other interviews from that garage but i thought you might want to know that this was the last one i thought it was appropriate appropriate and coincidental that a pair of blues artists did the last blues in the garage, and they do play some blues, and that was it. I got to get this place.

I got to get the new place up and cranking for the music situation. I do like when people play music in front of me. Mark Oliver Everett also played a tune that was recorded in the old garage. These are some of the final interviews from that garage, though there might be some from a few months back. I'm just telling you. If you wanted to point a reference for the end of that situation over there, this is what's going on.

And I'll tell you, man, to sit there and ride the faders when Charlie Musselwhite's blowing harp. It was one of those situations where, you know, Everett just had a guitar, an acoustic guitar. I can just stick a mic in that. But, you know, Charlie and Ben, we didn't know if we were going to be able to do it. And they had, they brought in, they came in with two Fender Champs. Not old ones, but two little Fender Champs. One for the harp and one for Ben's guitar. Everyone's going to be playing today on the show.

So listen, I'm excited to bring to you my conversation with Mark Oliver Everett. I always enjoy seeing him. He's a thoughtful and bright young man. And his new album with the Eels is called The Deconstruction. It's available now wherever you get music. And this is me talking to Mark Oliver Everett. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com Is this your second or third time? Second. It's only the second time? It seems like I've already done it. You seem familiar to me. You're timeless. Thank you. Yeah. You look well. Yeah, you too. It's been a while since you've

been here. I don't remember. I think it went well the last time. I think it went really well, yeah. People seem to regard it as a good episode. A good Mark E. interview. Yeah. Yeah. The fans are like, that was good.

I learned some things. Yeah. I thought I knew everything about you. Yeah, it's like someone finally got under his skin and opened him up come on come on you did it to yourself yeah so uh but that was a few years ago man yeah that was like five or six years ago i feel like i've run into you a couple times is that what's happened over the uh over the year well we saw each other at the um we sat next to each other at the gary shanley that's, that's right. That was, yeah, that was kind of. What an amazing night that was. That really was.

We were in the front row. It was you, me, and Tom Petty. Yeah. Did you talk to him? I did get to talk to him. I've never talked to him here. You know, he looked fragile. Well, I had an experience with him afterwards.

It was. Is this a good experience? Notable. Yeah, it was a great experience. It was the only time I've ever met him. We just all happened to walk outside onto the sidewalk after. He was having a smoke? He was having a smoke, and he literally fell off the curb, and I caught him in my arms.

He was free-falling, you might say. Yeah. fallen you might say yeah and and uh so i'm holding tom petty in my arms which later became very poignant after he died and you heard about his hip problems i didn't know this at the time yeah i just thought he was stoned right and uh and he was just so nice he was like hey you know i've been listening to you for a long time and i was like wow that means a lot from you tom petty i don't know i call them tom petty yeah and we just like sat out there and shot the shit for a while it was great yeah he seemed like a pretty sweet spirited guy super sweet from what i could tell and he's been listening to you for a long time that's what he said you know to my face did i how did he know you did was that

the moment of introduction that was the only time i'd ever met him when you fell you told him who you were and he went oh i know you kind of deal well he i didn't say who i was because i had played a song during the oh that's right i remember that was great thanks that's right yeah you did you were up there with the sadness i was up there with this i brought the sadness elevating the sadness what tune did you do i did it's a motherfucker yeah oh that's right yeah what and remember like Warren Beatty and Annette Bening were right behind us.

It was the closest I'll ever get to sitting at the Oscars, you know. Yeah. It was crazy, but that was such a beautiful night.

that was like one of the best nights I think I've ever had. Like, it was just a full experience. It really was and I, you know,

like I didn't know Gary that well. I had interviewed him but to to sort of feel the the kind of the his whole person come together through other people's eyes like that you know sadly at a memorial but it was you know you know really kind of registering the impact he had on other people was phenomenal it was was like everything you want, laughter, tears, and hopefulness. It was just amazing. Yeah, it was genuinely life-changing for me

to tell you the truth. Yeah, me too. And I really identify with the whole Gary thing. I feel like I've been on a, a similar quest, my version of it, you know, did you know him? Like him?

I never knew him. I've been in the same room with him several times, but I never actually had the nerve to talk to him. Which quest? The spiritual one? Well, not the spiritual one so much, but sort of,

you know, like, um, the, the self-improvement quest, you know, sore spot. I just don't know, man, you like i i i know about it and i and i've engaged in it but to really engage in it to go full in

you know that was sort of one of the things about the shandling story and about that night that kind of blew me away was that there were things that you know he went to as far as you can go to to to sort of get spiritual and get self-improvement right and there were some areas of his life that i don't feel you know from in retrospect and how it was you know being presented by his peers that that he he had much success in fixing them well i think you know, there's a clip that I just saw recently that might be from the... Doc? The Judd doc.

I think I saw a clip of Sarah Silverman saying, you know, it wasn't that Gary was so zen, it was that he was so in need of being zen. Yeah. And that's, I totally identify with that. It's like, guys like him and guys like me who are on those kind of quests, it's like guys like him and guys like me who are on those kind of quests it's because we fucking need it you know it's not like because we're experts on

any of it we're trying it's like on this new album way to tie it in the deconstruction yeah it's like i'm not an expert in any of the songs on this album if i'm talking to someone in one of these songs i'm simultaneously talking to myself or maybe i'm only talking to myself and just it's all like notes to self this is you know if you want to live better try this you know yeah well i mean certainly i've had my experience with that and and you know the need to uh to have some relief is you know to surrender at that level you know it requires some sort of surrender right yeah right and to live in that vulnerability is uh you know you know it can be a tall order if you have things to do yeah i mean that's the thing is like it's work it's like vigilance and you're gonna live on a monastery and all you got to do is your chores then it's yeah it's probably a little easier

right if you can just deal with the detachment. Right. But if you have to go out there in the world, and especially if your creative process is driven by the fury of malcontent or self-annihilation or self-judgment, whatever it is, self-involvement. Right. How do you shift? self-annihilation or self-judgment whatever it is yeah self-involvement right you know what do

you how do you shift yeah i mean that's why it's not easy it's you know we'd all be like perfect people if we all well is this a concept album oh you know for a long time i didn't know i was making an album i i took a what turned into a four-year break, basically, since the last one. Didn't you have a kid or something? I have a kid now, yeah. Yeah. Spoiler. How old is that kid? He's only about 10 months old.

Well, how did I know that? I don't know. How do you know that? I don't know, but I felt it. I don't feel like you'd be a good babysitter. No, I'd be a fine babysitter. I don't know how great a father I'd be in the long run. When can you do it?

I don't know. We'll check my schedule be in the long run when can you do it I don't know we'll check my schedule after this but that's 10 months yeah and okay so you didn't know you were making this record

I didn't know I was making a record and I you know I was just like I just needed a break you know like if you do too much of one thing

in your life for too long it catches up with you I don't know I don't know if you have any experience with that sure

yeah I do yeah you start to lose your mind yeah well in my case it was work like that's all i paid attention to pretty much for going on 25 years yeah you know yeah like and it was just an incredibly unbalanced life right and so i got to the point four years ago where it just became very clear like i need to take a break and start to so I got to the point four years ago where it just became very clear like, I need to take a break and start to pay attention to the other side of life.

Yes. All the other sides of life. Yeah. And the child makes that a pressing situation. Well, that didn't happen right away. You know,

that only happened 10 months ago. I know, but I mean like, that's one of those things where it's sort of like, my God, you're forced to be selfless.

Right. Yeah. And show up for, you know, in a way that, you know, is, I imagine it's somewhat innate, but it's certainly, you know, the good time, the other priorities thing, life, living life becomes very immediate. There is a lot of innate stuff that does happen that you know is nice that it's just automatic you know thank god yeah yeah thank god you have that in place yeah no like you know psychopath yeah like you probably think you're not a kid person and all that stuff and you know i was basically like i'm that's not in the cards for me at this point you know i'm so fucking old how old are you i'm i'm like your age how old are you i'm 54 54. yeah and you have one and i have one and i'm just getting started which is

insane because like all my friends are like becoming empty nesters and they're like yeah yeah we'll finally we're free i guess we won't be seeing you anymore don't ruin this for us but you know you do become like when it's yours like all the cliches that people say it's true you become the guy that like i just i'll just like i'll just sit there and just flip through and play the same videos of him over and over again and just like you know you make strangers look at pictures of your kids it's just fascinating it just happens you know and and it and it also then you become like a kid person in general you start to understand other people's kids why they're so great too right it's just this thing that happens

you're part of the cult now the kid cult i'm part of the cult yeah it's it's quite a pleasant surprise to see that you you can become that now was this an on purpose kid or no this is this is a surprise kid. Oh. That's good that you like him. We made him the old fashioned way by surprise. Are you with the woman? Well, the other surprise is then his mother has divorced me. Oh.

Yeah. So that was another surprise. That was not something I had in mind. Wait, so you were married? Yeah. And then you had the kid? Yeah. And then she's out? Yeah.

In quick succession. Wow. That's kind of heartbreaking. Or was it time? I don't know. No, it's been devastating for me. But, you know, and a lot of what this album is about is like, I think the key to happiness, if there is one, is accepting your reality and just making the decision to happiness if there is one is please tell me

accepting your reality and just making the decision to be happy with it or as happy with it as you can be you know

it is a decision huh it's a decision I mean that's for people like us the last song in this album is specifically about that that there's a place we can all go to

within ourselves that's just a place to where you can make a choice and just say like well this is my reality I'm gonna be happy with it we can all go to within ourselves. That's just a place to, where you can make a choice and just say like, well, this is my reality.

I'm going to be happy with it or I'm not going to be happy with it. Right. And that, you know, it's, it takes work and it's hard to do, but so take my situation that's happening right now. It's quite an extreme, unexpected situation for me,

but I'm able to look at all the good parts about it. You know, it's not how I pictured things turning out. It's particularly wrenching for me yeah but i'm able to look at all the good parts about it you know it's not how i pictured things turning out particularly wrenching for me after all the tragedies of losing my first family early you know i was i was the last one standing of your your father and your mother and my sister and your sister yeah so to then finally get to a point where I have another family and then have it taken away is very painful, as you can imagine. But there's so many great things about it. My son, Archie, is fucking delightful. I'm completely in love with him. Yeah.

His mom is a great mom. And watching them together is inspiring. It's this amazing love story. And we're able to maintain a friendship and she lives right down the street. It's got an unconventional family vibe, at least still. So again, it's just not what I pictured, but there's a lot of things to be thankful for.

And I just have to hang on to the good parts of it yeah and it's always that that's really all there is to life i think is it's just always going to be some sort of shit storm it's just a constant motion you just have to get comfortable with emotion i think when i took this break yeah i naively thought okay all the drama of my life is over and now it's going to be calm and amazingly i had like one really nice calm year that was just like the happiest i'd ever been yeah because it was everything i wanted yeah and i was and i actually got it and like what it was just like relaxing for a year and just doing fun stuff yeah and not about anything, you know? Yeah. And it's amazing that it lasted that long.

And then it just all went out the window and now it's like just crazy onslaughts that couldn't be the more opposite of that. And, you know, that's just, that's what life is. That's what my life is anyway. Well, I was so close to, I think, in my mind doing that, like just pulling out and taking the time and then it didn't happen. Like I was almost going to buy a house in New Mexico and then I ended up down the street.

Yeah. You know, and so like, because I let people convince me like it wasn't time to put myself out to pasture yet. Yeah. You know, like there's still work to be done. That's what I thought when I first started this break four years ago. For a while, I actually felt like I might just be done. Right. I don't know if I'm ever going to get back to it.

Yeah. Yeah. And how'd that feel? It felt like just necessary at the time. Like I just hadn't. You were okay in that moment with being done. I was okay because it was like that thing where life lets you know you need to stop. And it was only like I would just give myself the luxury of if i woke up one morning and i was

super inspired to write a song i'd go and write it and record it and then it might be like six months before i had that happen again and then so that's why this wasn't a planned record it wasn't a planned record it slowly turned into a record yeah so that so like in some ways, you know, there was a natural evolution to these songs. Yeah, I mean, it's a great way to make a record if you have that luxury of that much time. Because it's just song by song. It's very feel-driven. It's just all about, like, what's this song about? And that's all you're thinking about.

And you might have actually been doing some doing some sort of you know uh emotional and spiritual uh geometry with them like you know like you were working out without knowing right yeah yeah yeah like because when you feel the impulse to make some sense poetically of something yeah and it often means something other than what you think it means at the time yeah now the arc, the arc of the thing, like, you know, the deconstruction, that song and the title of the record, do you, like, does it all fall under that? Well, what I was thinking about there was, like, you know, the personal deconstruction of, like, how we all spend a lot of our lives

building up these defenses and these walls around ourselves and i was just thinking like well what's on if we tore down those walls and those defenses what's there that we're protecting what do we start with about a five-year-old about a five-year-old tops right yeah yeah yeah yeah like a fight like whatever we're protecting was something or someone that was old enough to be hurt somehow in such a way that he was going to hide for this amount of time. Yeah. And it's in my face all the time now with my son. You know, you're just like, all you see is this sweetness and innocence and natural joy. And it's just like, oh, it's heavy, you know?

Well, how old were you when you found your dad dead? 18, 19. No, so that was before that. Yeah, I don't, it's hard for me to pinpoint. Like, I'm jealous of people that have, like, a distinct, like, incident. That was the day that it all went bad. Yeah, my situation was so weird and complicated and you know basically i was just sort of you know kind of raised by wolves

yeah in in terms of like like everybody meant well but they just weren't equipped for the situation sure yeah no i know that feeling yeah like i i feel that like when i get to the edge of it Yeah, no, I know that feeling. Like, I feel that, like, when I get to the edge of it, and I imagine that, you know, when you have a child and, you know, whatever time you spend alone with that child, you know, there's no risk of vulnerability there for you either. I mean, the kid's wide open, but, like, you can actually probably let go and connect in a way that's sort of transcendent.

Yeah, exactly. It really is. It's a great like reminder and way to see it in your daily life. Like, yeah, you can just be open. My question is, what do we think is going to happen? What can't we handle if we're open? Do you know what I mean? Right. That's what I mean? Right.

That's what I'm asking in the song, I guess. Yeah, it's like, you know, why are we, like, this is all bullshit, you know, but we're just like so invested in it for so long. But we're grown people. I know. And we're just like trying to protect our five-year-old selves. Yeah. Idiotic.

It is. And then like, but, you know, the other part that I've noticed, I've talked about a little bit, is that, you know, but you know, the other part that I've noticed, I've talked about a little bit is that, you know, all the other parts of the five-year-old, the sort of hypersensitivity and the anger, it all operates at the same emotional tenor. And it's just not appealing coming out of a 54-year-old. No, it's not. It's embarrassing.

We're fucking embarrassing man children. Right. It is. Embarrassing man children. Right. If there's any like one sentence I could distill, if there's one message of this whole album, it would be try to be more Mr. Rogers and less Donald Trump.

Mm. Yeah. That's the thing. Like that's the five-year-old thing we all lost. Yeah. And at its worst, with all the defenses it turns into donald trump right just uh just complete no uh self-awareness no shame no no empathy no empathy very little conscience yeah completely self-serving yeah america spoken like a true loser yeah but no i i agree with you well i'm glad i well did you find

it seems to me that you you lucked out with the kid because maybe after writing all these songs then the kid comes you're like all right well that this is the shortcut yeah i mean you know if if it was just an album like you know john lennon's double fantasy and it's like oh yeah you know i'm married and uh domestic bliss is the answer everything i and it's like, ooh, you know, I'm married and domestic bliss is the answer to everything. I think it's much more of a meaningful affair, this situation,

because it's like, it really is about like rolling with the punches and life is, well, another John Lennon quote, like life is what happens to you while you're busy

making other plans. Oh, yeah. Is that him? Yeah, that was on that album, actually, so I just sort of went against my own theory there. Do you love John Lennon? No, he was a hack.

Of course I love John Lennon. He was the greatest. Well, you want to play a song? Sure. Are you prepared to play on that little guitar, that dinky guitar? I better. I'm going acoustic because the the last time i went i was

here i went electric and the fans were outraged were they outraged it was like dylan at newport no nobody cares keep it keep in mind yeah keep in mind i'm quite rusty i haven't done this for four years and you haven't played a guitar i have well no i mean i did in the studio some but i i haven't performed like well also this this will this is the first live performance of any song from this album exciting is that exclusive enough for you mark maron yeah you want to do it all right all right i'm gonna it might take me a few tries. All right, I'll be on the mixer. I'm going to try to do this in one take, but I can't promise I'm going to make it. We can do more.

I'm just going to ride the faders. You ride the faders. All right. Here we go. Here we go. Today is the day that I chuck everything I bought out the door Today is the day I ask myself what the hell was I living for That's right Today is the day it starts right here

Don't you got a thing to worry about now Today is the day it starts right here. Don't you got a thing to worry about now? Today is the day it starts right here. I thought about it and it's kind of strange. Everything that I tried so hard. I thought about it and I gotta say I had it wrong right from the start That's right Today is the day it starts right here Don't got a thing to worry about now Today is the day it starts right here Come on now, don't you worry now

Everything that I thought that I believed Oh baby, was all so clear to me But now I know that I was wrong It's gone, it's gone, gone, gone It's all right now Today is the day that you see There's a man who will always change Who knows the only things to count on

Life is quick and life is strange That's right Today is the day it starts right Don't got a thing to worry about now Today is the day it starts right here I ain't got a thing to worry about now, today is the day it starts right here, come on man don't you worry now

I don't know if you'll come along I just wanted to sing my song about change today is the day Nailed it. Was that all right?

Yeah, man. All right, fuck it. One take. One take. One take every four years. That's all I got to do now. The focus, man. It was intense.

You got it. All right. Well, congrats on the new record, and it was intense you got it alright well congrats on the new record and it was great seeing you and congratulations on the child and I'm glad that even though it's difficult the family situation is working

so far so good alright man thanks for having me yeah talk to you again soon that sounded good huh Thanks for having me. Yeah, talk to you again soon. That sounded good, huh? The old garage. That's what the old garage sounded like, playing music in it.

Again, the new Eels album is called The Deconstruction. It's available now, okay? And if you want to hear my full talk with Mark from back in 2013 it's episode 371 and you can get that with subscriptions to stitcher premium or howl.fm dig it now we're gonna like now we're gonna go we're gonna travel into the real blues you know ben ben harper has been playing some pretty sweet uh folk and blues and and singersongwriter stuff for many years. Did a beautiful record with his mother not long ago. And he did another record with Charlie Musselwhite. Charlie Musselwhite, one of the great blues harp players of his generation. That being the second generation, I would think you would call him, the ones that learned at the feet of the Sonny Boy

Williamson's, of the Little Walters, you know, of the James Cotton. You know, he was there, man. He was in Chicago. And Ben and Charlie have done this beautiful record. And I don't listen to a lot of new blues, but this is a beautiful record beautifully produced and you'll hear the song at that that they play after after i talked to them that's the the uh the title song of this of the of the album no mercy in this land is the name of the record you can get that now but you know it was interesting when ben because ben's got a lot of history uh himself and uh but but char Charlie still has all the old blues history. So there were stories coming out that clearly Ben hadn't heard.

So me and Ben are just sitting listening to the old blues, the blues veteran laying down some old stories from the old times. And that was great. That was great. It was a real treat. And again, this was the last conversation and music played as far as a guest goes in the old garage so this is me talking to ben harper and charlie muscle white let's break down a little bit it's sometimes with two cats i you know like i'll probably single one of you out for a while,

and then you come back and forth. I had Taj Mahal and Keb Mo in here, and Keb didn't say anything. It wasn't his fault. There's a lot of listening and learning. That was the story there class is in session for sure permanently yeah always and i and i knew this has got to be the way it's always going but let's let's start with uh go going all the way back because i you know i was thinking that charlie because of your the length of your career now you're still alive thank god that uh it seems that you were able to to not only see

the development in in the birth of rock and roll but you were also uh you really sort of firsthand were able to see the electrifying of blues music like you were there well pretty much where did you start out where were you born i was born in mississippi and i was raised up in memphis and uh memphis memphis was full of music back then yeah it seemed the same today but uh you mentioned seeing rock and roll beginning it's interesting that johnny and dorsey burnett lived across the street from me no shit and i used to hang out over at their house and jimmy griffin who had a band called Bread, lived next door. And all of us would just kind of hang out. Did you play together a lot?

Well, I remember they let me go on the steel guitar they had. Because you were a kid? Yeah. I remember one day I was over there. Their eyes were real red. And I went home to my mother. I said, them boys across the street, their eyes are all red. My mom said, well, I guess they've been doing a little drinking.

A little bit. A few days worth. Charlie, were you born home, hospital? I was born in a hospital in Kosciuszko, Mississippi. And how long did you live there? Three years. I continued to spend my summers there. Oh, really?

It's just down the road from memphis and but you still have a connection to it i have a home in clarkstown mississippi yeah and sonoma county when did you start playing harmonica oh well it was a common toy it seemed like everybody had a harmonica and i just kind of toot around on it like a little kid and just making up stuff. When I was about 13, I'd been listening to blues and going around Memphis looking for old blues records and it occurred to me how much I loved the way the original Sonny Boy played harmonica. The first Sonny Boy. Yeah, and other people too. And I got to thinking, well, you have a harmonica. Right.

It feels so good. Listen to them guys. Why don't you take it and teach yourself? So I went out in the woods and just kept messing with it. Since I was already familiar with it a little bit, it kind of came pretty easy. Really? It seemed logical. Yeah, yeah.

So talking about this period ben like you know you grew up around this music i did and and and but you you were like a kid i mean what are you a little younger than me i'm 54 were you 48 you're 48 yeah and you grew up here i grew up in claremont california yeah which is in between here and joshua tree yeah and what was that what was the background because i did a little a little research but it sounds like you know you've got a in between here and Joshua Tree. Yeah. And what was the background? Because I did a little research, but it sounds like you've got a... It's interesting that both of you...

Because I just saw that documentary, Rumble. Did you see it? No. There's a documentary called Rumble on Amazon, and it's about the influence of American Indians in rock and roll. And they go back to Charlie Patton. Like they literally, Link Wray and Charlie Patton.

They go back to Charlie Patton, whose grandmother was an Indian. And they had modern Indian singers, women who actually did traditional music, were able to track some of the melodies in Charlie Patton recordings that were actually indigenous people melodies there you go did you do you have any sense of that i mean because you both have

indian in you right that's what they tell me yeah same i gotta do one of the genetic i gotta get i gotta get to the bottom of that so you don't know for me i mean it's rumored right but i have to do you know ancestry.com yeah me too i'm okay i me too. I know it's all going to come back Jew, but I'm curious which part of that. I'm there too. Are you too? Yeah. I got like nine nationalities. I'm a real American mutt.

But it does play into everything from your attitude, your personality, to your sense of humor, to your creative output, doesn't it? I mean, whether you want it to or not, you just can't escape genetics. Well, it just sounds to me like that, you know, well, I mean, tell me about the, your dad and mom weren't together? No, not from a young age. By the time I was six, they were done. And your dad was, he was the one with the, supposedly like had some Indian in him. Yeah.

And your mom was Jewish. My mom's Jewish. My dad's black. Yeah. With some Indian back there. Yeah. And where'd you, what was the environment? Because it seems like the musical environment was very defined.

Your grandparents? It was rich. Yeah. And music from all over the world. Where was it? Tell me about the place. My family's at a music store called the Claremont Folk Music Center. It's also a certified museum.

Yeah. And it's been here since 1958. We're celebrating 60 years this year of family-owned five generations. It's still there? Tuesday through Sunday. It's still there? Still there, man. We should take a drive out there. Jay and I, Jay Albert, our mutual friend, we grew up

neighbor to neighbor. One wall separated his house and mine. Oh, really? Yeah. And that's how you know John? That's how I know John. So, tell me about this store, though, because it was so, since 1958, you said? You have to see it to believe it, man. But like, it doesn't sound like, it sounds a little bit like the place on Bleecker Street, you know, like in New York where Dylan and all those people hung out during the...

It's as if Bleecker and Haight-Ashbury had Woody Guthrie and Joan Baez child. Yeah. Wow. So it was just filled with stuff. And Ravi Shankar was the godfather of both of them or something. You got some of that? You got some of that in there too? Oh man, I mean.

So they deal with folk music from around the world? It was world. My family's music store is the reason America calls world music, world music. It didn't used to be world music. It was just music from around the world. Right, right. So they integrated it intellectually and commercially. They made it available.

That's right. The thinking around it. That's right. And if you throw on top of that a love of, a literary passion and love by my grandparents and my mom, that's the environment. So you got all of it. Yeah.

You got literary, like poetry, and you got folk music. Yeah, and you get a youthful, teenage, hip-hop, rebellious kid in me. Yeah. Then mash it all together. No kidding. So do they do live performances there and stuff? Yeah, we still have the best open mic within 100 miles, north, south, east, west in L.A. last Sunday of every month.

And this is in Pomona? Claremont. Claremont. Claremont. Yep. One town due north. Well, who'd you see growing up? I mean, I imagine it sounds like a pilgrimage-worthy place. Did people come?

I looked up one time. My grandfather, he was in World War II, lost an ear. Didn't lose an ear, pardon me. Not Van Gogh style, but lost his hearing in an ear. And the ear he could hear out of wasn't great. So when he'd tell you he was going to lean in with his good ear, it was still a struggle. But that said, he used to repair, restore instruments and was kind of the patriarch, was the patriarch of the store.

Yeah. So I look up, I had come from the back. I used to do a lot of repair work in the back of the store. Yeah. So I look up, I had come from the back, I used to do a lot of repair work in the back of the shop. So I look up and there's Leonard Cohen with a pile of, a pile of stuff. Yeah.

He had, you know, and my grandfather was getting to the end and was just charging him full price. Right. And I look up and I'm like, oh,

my grandfather didn't, he didn't make, didn't play music. Yeah. Didn't listen to a lot of music. Yeah. Loved instruments. Right. Right. So he didn't, he didn't clock, it was of music but loved instruments right so he didn't clock

it was Leonard so I instantly said excuse me grandpa let me handle this and I gave like I piled all these instruments because I think

he was buying stuff for kids it was like the holiday season he was getting toys for family members I piled everything

in the bag and like charged him five dollars oh wow I said Mr. Cohen thank you for a lifetime of incredible music he says oh thank you for your generosity Yeah, yeah, yeah. Family members. I piled everything in the bag and charged him $5. Oh, wow. I said, Mr. Cohen, thank you for a lifetime of incredible music. He says, oh, thank you for your generosity. How old were you? Oh, I was in my 20s.

Oh, so you knew. You knew. Yeah, I knew right away. You knew the power. So they weren't musicians, though, your grandparents? My grandmother, on the other hand, was an extraordinary musician. She played dulcimer, auto harp, guitar, banjo, sang like a bird, wrote songs. Old school.

Yeah. Dulcimer. Yeah. yeah dulcimer yeah any dulcimer in your background charlie only except when i played with cindy lauper oh really she said nothing says blues like a mountain dulcimer to me and i love that they call it ain't no notes on a dulcimer you just play yeah is that true it's the same it's such an odd instrument all right so but did you do what was your experience with blues music at that time? Did you have any? Well, the store was centered around American roots music, which is folk and blues. Right.

And other things, but to the point of the store, and my family's passion was folk and blues. And blues was the first music that spoke directly to my spirit and soul. Yeah? To where I just couldn't, I had to get in it. Do you remember which one? Mississippi John Hurt, Baby Right Away. Oh, yeah? Really?

That's it. I said to my grandma, I said, who are these guys? Yeah. I was about 18. I said to my grandma, who are these guys playing? She said, it's just one guy. I said, no, there's two guitar players. Yeah.

Or it's got to be at least two guitar players. My grandma said, no. No? It's just one guitar player. The high high strings double thumb and high string and picking and i i instantly set out i think he's taj's guy too right yeah yeah yeah i had taj in here going taking he took me all the way back to senegal yeah he picked up that old k guitar to show me where skip james came from yeah and all of a sudden he's's back in Africa doing those sad notes, that timing that you can sort of hear through Skip.

And he did it for like 45 seconds. And I was like, just keep doing that. Can you do that? He knows that shit. From Senegal to the Silk Road in China. Yeah, trip, right? Yeah, he can lay that out for you. So the blues spoke to you, but ultimately, I guess like your early records, there's definitely

a blues vibe on it. Sure. Yeah, definitely. I've bent it around. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've stretched it as far as I could by the time I've come back to it in full form. So, Charlie, so you're down there, you're learning how to play harp, you're in Memphis, there's a lot going on, you know the Burnett guys. How old were you when you started playing with people? I first was real fascinated with the street singers that would see downtown in Memphis and on Beale Street.

But I was too shy to talk to them. But I would follow them around, listen to them, watch them. And in other parts of town, too, there were some street singers. Anyhow, later on, I got to know Furry Lewis and Will Shade and Gus Cannon and Memphis Willie B and Earl Bell and all these guys that played. And they were really welcoming to me. They were flattered that I would seek them out to hear them because they liked their music and they believed in it. Here's a young kid that likes it too. All right.

So they were glad to have me come around and and learn from them and uh but i didn't know i was preparing myself for a career i'd have paid a lot more attention i was just having fun i was just a kid i wasn't thinking about this is something i was going to do and you would play with them yeah we would just sit around in their homes and pass some jug around yeah and just have these spontaneous jam sessions. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. I wonder, I guess that happens still.

It's just so interesting to me to sort of be a witness of the source of this stuff, the evolution of the music. Because, I mean, you and I came to it later, listening to it. Yeah. Right? you know listening to it yeah right but that you saw like you know like i don't know when the the you know when like wolf and muddy and those guys ended up in chicago but it couldn't have been much before you right oh they were maybe 10 years or something ahead of me yeah and but these guys i knew in memphis were the old timers compared right sure muddy and and

wolf they're like folk blues right yeah well Later on, when I knew Big Joe Williams, I'd walk into Pepper's Lounge, and man, Muddy would act like a little kid, like it was his hero. When Big Joe had just been a single guy playing a guitar going down the road, as they used to put it, with his hat on backwards.

So when did you start seeing yourself as a professional blues man you know doing you know making you know the gigs making the money i'm still working on that but when did you start playing professionally uh it's hard to say i don't remember the first time i got paid yeah i like to think that when my first album came out that gave me a career and put me on the road yeah and that was it that was a big turning point another turning point was when muddy had me come sit in with him and then that resulted in me getting gigs around chicago so when you moved to chicago was in the 60s 62. and you started playing like so everything was electric up there right not everything like like

i mentioned big joe williams yeah he would play through an app or he'd just play solo he was like a folk blues guitar player from from he wrote baby please don't go and it was yeah yeah yeah and and so what were where were people playing mostly bars yeah and also i mean the university of chicago would have a folk festival oh yeah and uh you would hear they would hire somebody like big joe or the stanley brothers and and mix it all up barbara dane and stuff like so either uh in coffee houses where they had folk music and occasionally a blues folk player yeah or in in the blues clubs that I would go to that most people that didn't live in the neighborhood wouldn't dare go to. Mostly black clubs?

Yeah. Yeah. Or the festivals. Yeah. That was it as far as I knew. Yeah. So the first record, that didn't come until, what, 67? So you're hanging around.

Who else is around? Like is Howlin' Wolf's there? Yeah. And Butterfield's around? Yeah, everybody's there. The only guy I didn't get to see, and he was there, but he died before I saw him, was Elmore James. Oh, man. Yeah.

And then I found out later he was staying just around the corner from me with Homesick James. Oh, really? But Homesick, he liked all the attention on himself, so he never told me that, hey, come by and meet Elmore. And how much time did you get to spend with people like Muddy and Wolf and stuff? Oh, lots and lots. I mean, those clubs were real affordable affordable to get into 50 cents or a buck or something yeah at the most yeah and a lot of them were just free you just went in uh so all those years i was in chicago it was i mean you think well who would i want to hear tonight

little walter sunny boy i don't know muddy Muddy, I saw Muddy last night. Wolf, I mean, Chicago was loaded with the blues back then. Isn't that crazy, man? I know, it's all gone now, pretty much. Hubert Sumlin. Yeah, Hubert. I'd see Hubert all the time with Wolf. And he'd hold his guitar like straight up and down and just be rocking with it.

His hands would be flying up and down. He'd be looking at it like, what am I doing? How do I do this? And rocking and playing. And then later on, he was more sedate. Man, when he was young, he was ferocious. He's got a very crazy, unique sound, that guy. I couldn't believe it.

I mean, the audience would just be pinned to the wall with this this sound coming off the stage it was and okay so let's talk about the harp players so so like because you you're probably about the same ages as butterfield right more or less i can't one of us is like a year older than the other one i don't remember well yeah yeah and but at that time, it was Little Walter. The old guard was what? Little Walter, James Cotton. Sonny Boy.

Sonny Boy. And Good Rockin' Charles and Big Walter Horton. A lot of obscure harmonica players that people wouldn't recognize. And what made, because I guess Little Walter is the first guy to really have a harmonica hit, right? As far as I know, Juke was a huge hit. Yeah, yeah.

And what was his style? How do you define some of his style? Well, when he got to Chicago, he was playing like the first Sonny Boy, real country. Yeah. And that was his big influence. Then in Chicago, he got exposed to a lot of horn players, and he started listening to them, and, hmm, I can play that. His phrasing started changing and becoming more urban. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, or even jazzy. I mean, he's phrasing like a horn player instead of like a guy out in the country. That's funny how those instruments cross-pollinate, because even with Chuck Berry's riff, that's, what's his name, Johnny Johnson, that's a piano riff, right? I remember seeing Chuck in a club going to see Lil' Walter. Oh, really? He was at the bar next to me. Man, that guy really looks like

couldn't be. What would he be doing in here? Then Lil' Walter says, I got a friend, Chuck Berry. And Chuck Berry goes up and just plays some stone-killer blues. I bet. Not no rollover Beethoven. Oh, really? got a friend chuck berry's wrong and chuck berry goes up and just plays some stone killer blues i bet not no rollover beethoven oh really yeah i can bet he could do it like that's all those t-bone walker licks they're all of them all the licks are t-bone walker real sophisticated right yeah but but you can also go straight back to robert johnson with a lot of a lot of those licks

too you can't early kind of delta acoustic stuff yeah you gotta swell them down a little bit yeah and figure it out did you do

how many Robert Johnson songs have you recorded probably a half dozen yeah oh yeah maybe four to six yeah

yeah and what's your experience in sort of going down that well well like you know how do you handle it?

They're so complicated, too. But I like to pick them apart and come as close to the original as I can. Yeah, I used to be a little bit lazier, but nowadays I really like to get them down. The first engineer. Exactly. There's a great local player named Fran Bannick,

and he is a master at it. I mean, you can sit in front of Fran and learn Robert Johnson. He's a great local player. He used to teach at McCabe's. Great player. Yeah, I used to sit with him and watch master at it. I mean, you can sit in front of Fran and learn Robert Johnson. He's a great local player. Used to teach at McCabe's. Great player. Yeah, I used to sit with him and watch him do it. Really?

So you've gotten more proficient as time went on with that slide? Yeah, like come on in my kitchen and stuff like that, just with getting that down. Robert's a great one to pick apart and go note for note till you got it. Because I saw, you know, I talked to John Hammond in here not long ago. Charlie knows John. Yeah. I love John. Yeah, he he's a great guy he's a really good guy yeah you know and and my dad too you did yeah but was interesting to me uh you know talking about owning the blues and and and going deep with them and making them uh vital was i saw him at this weird like it was

like i was visiting my brother in Tucson, and the Tucson Blues Society or something had him out. And it was just by coincidence. And there was like 40 people in the room, and he was there with that National Steel, that Dobro or whatever it is. And he did Hellhounds. And I was like, I couldn't even breathe.

I saw John do that at McCabe's. You did? Yeah. I get chills just talking about it. Yeah, no, John is scary. John's scary, man. Like, where does that come from? Like, because he stops playing, he's like, hey, how you doing?

Nice. He's like, where's the guy that just played that? But I say that about a lot, like you'll hear Adele, you'll hear her in between songs, like, I don't know, she sounds like a librarian, and then she just digs into the song and pins you to the wall. Taps in. Yeah, yeah. None of us are who we talk, we're definitely who we sing. I guess so. librarian right then she just digs into the song and pins you to the wall taps in so i don't yeah yeah none of us are who we talk we're definitely who we sing i guess so something changes yeah some shifts yeah there's like you the whole being shift it's weird because it happens with music

happens with sex you know you kind of go out and then you land you come back and you're like okay i'm back but i was just somewhere else right so? So in talking about that, I don't know. I guess it's just natural. But when you talk about Robert Johnson as a grown person, as somebody you go back to, because I found that with Hendrix, too, that anytime I listen to Hendrix, it's sort of like, was that always there? You're able to experience the music differently as you get older. Isn't it true?

It resonates so differently when you get older. I recognize that. What is that? I don't know what it is. Genius is what it is. It's like it's the testament of the work of genius. Because, like, as you get more sophisticated or more emotional or more fragile, you know, different things resonate. But I'm surprised at how you know how you could really

feel jimmy in in almost every note there's a rawness to it that like it you know that that whatever his virtuosity is at the core of it is it's completely impulsive and full of feeling and do you find that when you go like when like have you had experiences when you dig into like robert johnson or any yeah robert and jimmy are as close as you can come in the human robert and jimmy and by the way charlie muscle white yes sir are as close as you can come in the... Robert and Jimmy, and by the way, Charlie Musselwhite... Yes, sir....is as close as you can come to hearing... It's as close as you

can come to the source. Yeah. Without... I mean, like, when Charlie gets done playing a solo, it's like he gets... It's not that he stopped playing the solo. It's that they kicked him out because he was getting too close to exposing the sixth sense getting too close yeah you can't you know you can't stay there too long yeah yeah we'll know

something we're not supposed to know yeah or not oh yeah yeah and he puts you right there and and jimmy and and robert they put you as close as you can get to the source with and and still and survive it yeah because it is because they're're reaching for something too hot to touch and too bright to see. Isn't that something? I remember Robert Johnson's story that what y'all were saying reminded me about kind of the mystery and the strangeness of Robert Johnson. Yeah. And I think it was Robert, Johnny Shines that told me this because they used to travel together

and play together. Yeah. And one day they were in some little town in the south and there was a preacher on the corner and he had a crowd around him. Yeah. He was preaching

and Robert rocks right up next to him and starts playing like the dirtiest blues that you can think of. Right. And chased everybody away. And the preacher said, young man, I don't know why you did what you did,

but you're going to have bad luck. And as they're walking away, Johnny says, man, why did you do that? Oh, and he was blind, the preacher. Why did you do that? He was just a blind preacher trying to make a buck, and he chased everybody away. And Johnson's reply was, ah!

That was it. That was it. That was it. The power. He unleashed the power on those people. I mean, what was that about? You just heard a story that was one person removed. Yeah, from the real thing. From Robert Johnson.

Yeah, yeah. That's what's up. Well, I guess that was his attitude, right? Why did he do that? I don't know. You know, oh, Satan, it's time to go. You were knocking on my door. I mean, maybe there's more to it than we really know.

Sure, man. I believe it. Maybe that was the deal he made. Maybe he did sell his soul. Maybe. You know, it's a great story, and nobody really knows, I guess. It's at least as good as Jesus. Yeah, for sure.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that was the thing about it. That was what I wanted to get at was i think that in this record and also the last record you guys did like i think you guys you know you tap into it you know there's something you know the songs are beautiful but you know i think i think that you make it you make it you know vital again you know that the music thank you you know in order to make the blues vital for a younger generation, you need a special kind of kid.

How do you get those kids in there? Do you ever think about that? I think about it on the opposite side of it when I look out in the crowd and see these kids, see and Charlie. Yeah, yeah. Man, we played Irving Plaza, right? It was kind of our coming out. It was our first gig that we played together. When was this?

This must have been 2013, Charlie? kind of our coming out it was our first gig that we played together when was this this was must have been 2000 what 13 charlie when around the time get up came out yeah for get up yeah for get up for our first record and we played irving plaza we didn't want to overshoot yeah i didn't want to over you sell it or you know grandstand with it we We booked Irving and didn't even know if that would, just figured, okay, let's go. Sold tight. It was to the rafters. After Charlie's solo, his first solo, people,

I got witnesses today, so help me God, with witnesses, it was at least a seven and a half minute ovation. After the first song, maybe it was the first song, maybe it was getting close to the end, but after one of Charlie's solos, song ended. And people were clapping at heated rapture. They were hurting themselves. For Charlie. And they wouldn't stop, and I would come to the mic,

and they're just like, no, we're not ready to stop. Kept going, kept going. Finally, after five, six, seven minutes, stepped in and we just didn't even know what to do. And it was all for, because they were those kids seeing Charlie for the first time. Right. And it was.

They'd never seen any of the real shit. It just, they got hit. No expletives necessary. Hit. And it was as if they were seeing something that... I can't explain it, man. Yeah, yeah. It was supernatural, though.

It was crazy. I believe it. I saw those faces going, okay. Yeah, like, where did that come from? Yeah, like... Authentic stuff. I've never felt... I don't know what this is.

What am I feeling? What the hell am I seeing? Well, that's great, man. Yeah, it was hip. Am I exaggerating? I always felt like, properly exposed, anybody would love blues. Sure. I mean, and all those people, they might have heard

or had some preconceived idea of blues, but when they got hit with it, it was like, good God, where's this been? I never heard anything like that. I thought blues was supposed to make you sad. I'm feeling like jumping up and down and being happy.

Yeah. Which is what blues will do. And who do you think, like, it's weird because you hear a lot about the popularization of the blues by the British guys who took to it first before it really kind of turned out here. But who do you think were the guys that, when you saw it, really started to just rock out the blues? Was it just Muddy and Wolf and those guys? Well, I heard a lot of stories about kids would say,

yeah, I went away to college and my roommate had a Rolling Stones album. And we noticed some of the tunes were by some guy named Muddy Waters. Right. And then we discovered Muddy Waters. And I heard variations of that story over and over. I still hear that story. Yeah. And I guess it's pretty common.

So there's a lot of credit to be given to those English groups that were doing American blues manfred man was another one oh really yeah brought attention to it paul jones is the harp player in that band and uh they were doing straight ahead blues and they were good yeah so now both of you guys have done like grammy award winning records with the blind boys alabama yeah i was on one then you were on one yeah yeah maybe we had full length with them yeah that was you and them yeah and you played along with them or yeah you just on a whole record i toured with i sang with them too what's the history of those guys how'd you guys come in contact and touch with those guys kevin morrow was their, and he was my manager. Oh, that helps. Yeah. But I'd been a fan of theirs for a long time. I had 45s and albums of theirs and loved a lot of their tunes.

Still listen to them. And they've been around a long time. Oh, yeah. And how many of the originals are still there? I don't know. Clarence is around. He retired. Occasionally, he will come out to appear with them.

I think Carter's too. When I worked with him, I was so motivated. Because I grew up with their music. My family and our music, they were on constant rotation, as was Charlie. Yeah. And so growing up with their music, they had covered a song of mine called I Shall Not Walk Alone. Yeah. And I caught Not Walk Alone. Yeah. And I caught wind of that.

Which album is that one from? That one is from, I think, maybe Spirit of the Century. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. And yeah, I should know this song. I shouldn't slip on that. But it's...

And they covered it and it blew you away? It was on Spirit of the Century, matter of fact. Yeah. It floored me and made the connection. We did a show together. Yeah. I i opened up for them them for me something like that and then the connection was made they came to me to to produce a record and i i wrote and produced a record with and for them and it it did it did what it was supposed to do yeah got out there yeah it's it's it's it's like that that whole strand of american music you know gospel

music and stuff i like i don't know enough about it but it seems to be a very unique thing and the drive of it seems to be you know fairly essential and unto itself it started the five blind blind boys of alabama yeah that was their original name yeah and uh and there were the blind boys in mississippi it was a whole man once it was proven that you could actually get out from under, like, weaving baskets or making brooms at a blind school or academy. Oh, is that how it happened? Yeah, that's how they got up out of there. Uh-huh. They were singing while they were all at Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Tuscaloosa, the school for the blind. Uh-huh. And they were there making brooms, production line brooms. And people were telling them, you'll never go anywhere else but here, so get comfortable in that seat. And on their breaks, they would sing. And they sang their way out of making brooms to the world stage, man. That'll motivate you.

Making brooms. And by the time we connected, there were still three original members of the five. George Scott. Yeah, who was the first guitar player. He used to play guitar for them, right? Right. He was their first guitar player. Yeah.

And Jimmy Carter and Clarence Fountain. Yeah. And to be able to, the three of them as the core nucleus of the Blind Boys, man, when they would open their mouths to sing, man, you just have to sit and wait for the hair to rest back onto your skin. Man, I listened to the hell out of that. And now you almost made me find Jesus. They were on a show with all these.

And that's no small feat. No. They did a show where it was all gospel groups. Yeah. And most of them were really young. I mean, they've been around a long time yeah and these groups are they're so full of energy and they're jumping around they got choreography and and you're sitting there thinking how the blind boy is going to handle this right and finally

it comes time for the blind boys they walk up and yeah clarence says i didn't come here to find Jesus today and people are like what it's like blasphemy yeah because I brought him with me and the whole place goes nuts

and from that point on Clarence had him in the palm of his hand I you know I start I was in a I had a collection

of the Sam Cooke and who was he with the Soulsters yes that stuff man yeah right just yeah I had a collection of the Sam Cooke and who was he with the Solstice? Yes. Yes. That stuff, man. Yeah.

Right. Just, yeah. Because when I look at Sam Cooke thing, then I'm like, I got to get these Solstice records. And it's like, oh, you're married, don't you leave? Yeah. Oh, man. And just to see how his voice, like even within that, because I read about, you know, I read some of the book about Sam, how his voice sort of like stood out somehow in in a way that you can't even describe no one's ever sounded

like that before right no it's nuts and you but you do it seems like you do uh you've done several records with other people you like working with other people i do i love i love collaborating and you were the record you did with your mother was amazing thank you this amazing record thank you like i get choked up thinking about getting along with your mother was amazing. Thank you. That's an amazing record. Thank you. Like, I get choked up thinking about getting along with your mother that well. Yeah, it was... It was fun. She had a great time. I had a great time.

And she brought half the songs I brought half. We've been talking about it, because my mom, she stopped making music to raise three boys. Yeah. So to be able to bring that back into her life at that level was just a true, true privilege. How old was she when you did... How old she now or is he does she not like you? I should kick my butt. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean that that that that song that out I mean at least 20 years older than me Uh-huh. Of course. There you go to the childhood home

But like what I what what was amazing about hearing her and the songs that you chose is that Some of that stuff is real folk stuff. Yeah, for sure. Like, and I can hear it in both of your, you know, in the melodies. Okay. And the harmony.

Yeah. Right? It's right there. So it was like, it really was like going home in a way, huh? For sure. And wait,

now you brought six and she brought six. You mean you wrote them? Are they all? Yeah, we, she brought her strongest collection. I brought mine that would suit the six. You mean you wrote them? Are they all? Yeah. She brought her strongest collection. I brought mine that would suit the material. Of stuff that you wrote.

Of stuff that we wrote. All original material. And the trick you find real quick. Yeah. Because I had another six. She had another six. We each came with about 10 songs. There's only so many types of songs you can duet with your mom and your son.

Certain things just don't pan out. As good as a song might be. The subject matter is not right. Yeah, I get it. But she harmonized beautifully. Thanks. Did you guys sing together when you were a kid? Yeah, that's what we were coming up.

When my mom would be rehearsing for her band, so she could really get the part down, she'd teach me the harmony. I'd be a seven-year-old kid singing a harmony line to a Dolly Parton or an Emmylou Harris song. Oh, yeah? Yeah, taking the harmony line. And what are you, you got two other brothers?

Two younger brothers. And are they in music? They both make music. They both love to make music. And that's their job? They're in the music biz? Not so much in the way that I am, but one of them's wanting to make music, you know,

and doing his thing, and yeah. Now, what have you found? Because,'s wanting to make music, you know, and doing his thing. And yeah. Now, what have you found? Because like, I assume that, you know, separately, you guys have very different fan bases in a way. Now, because you, I mean, you've sort of made an impact, I guess, in the late 90s, 2000, and you built a pretty good career for yourself, being a very thoughtful songwriter. Because I know that, I don't know what your relationship with Jack Johnson was, but you guys were friends at some point. Yeah. Jack come to shows and and because you started him out

he started opening up for me yeah i can't forgive you for that but that's okay no man jack is the shit man jack is a badass all right i'm not gonna shit on jack johnson no you cannot please not in my presence no he's a sweet guy sweet music but what i'm saying is that it was a huge appeal right but it didn't necessarily resonate with me and i and i think that like listening to your albums which i have a few of that i've listened to it was a different vibe but i think it was a broad appeal right you got a pretty good following from that stuff from your music your solo stuff and some of the other stuff yeah man i mean listen it's it's made its way there you know i've known when i'm in the valley looking up and i've known when i'm at a peak looking down and right yep but how many do you find of the people that have been with you for decades do you see them

out there i do we have a front row crew yeah my band is called the innocent criminals yeah and there's a core crew where you start to recognize them and and we call them front row innocent criminals so they're fric we're bhic they're F-R-I-C. We're B-H-I-C, they're F-R-I-C. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I've never, never wanted to be a WC Fields, I guess, not wanting to be a member of a club that would let me-

Groucho, yeah. Groucho, excuse me. I think it's Groucho, yeah. I think you're probably right. And I've always subscribed to that. Yeah. I'm too nonconformist to start a fan club. Right.

Or insult people with having one. But there's one that's kind of formed in a very unconventional way. Yeah. Just from being there. Yeah. They're like, we're with you, motherfucker. And I'm like, I'm with y'all, motherfuckers. And like, we're here.

And so we've just, it's game on. And they're FRIC, man. And are they coming out for you too? When you guys go out? Man, I could show you an email right now. What I've taken to doing. Yeah. I don't have a formal fan club. it's so informal yeah it that it's it's taken on a life

of its own and that sure there's email connections and i'm emailing with and i'm connecting them with my tour manager so we have a we have these sound check parties for fric oh nice they get to come to sound checks yeah they're fed yeah if we have catering they have catering oh nice right so get sound checks they get food and they're the first ones let in the door. Oh, that's sweet. So it's fun. Oh, that's great. It's unorthodox.

Yeah, and they've probably been with you for decades. If not two. Yeah, right. Yeah. And what about you, Charlie? How are your fans holding up? They're still showing up. We're still having fun.

Do you know some of them? Do you know people that have been coming to see you for for 50 years a lot of them i know just from email or you know i've never i don't know they're even their faces oh yeah you don't see them constantly i was there last night i love that tune and and blah blah blah and i'll see you next and all this stuff and yeah so there's a lot of that kind of stuff that i get. When did you move to the Bay Area? 67 in the fall to play at the Fillmore. That was my first gig.

With your band? Yeah. And how was it? And Butterfield and Cream. It was the last. Oh, my God. Yeah. That must have been crazy.

Well, I'd never been out of, this is my first time to actually be on the road with this new album my first album I had no interest in going to California I didn't even know anything about California I was having so much fun in Chicago but I thought okay I'll go out there and play this

place they call the Fillmore and man I got to California in I don't think 10 minutes. Did you drive or fly? I flew out, and 10 minutes went by, and I knew I wasn't going back to Chicago. Oh, really? This makes sense.

People are nice, and, ooh, look at those pretty girls. Yeah. And in the 60s, it must have been crazy. And the whole West Coast had these big, a lot of places to play that, way unlike the little joints I was playing in Chicago. Yeah. So this was a step up.

Well, I think, yeah, I think Bill Graham did an amazing thing, right? Because like, you know, you could do a straight blues band and you could do a psychedelic band and you could have the soul singer on. Oh, the same Bill. Yeah. I thought it was pretty astounding. It was great, yeah. And everybody got along pretty good?

You mean like on a bill? Oh, yeah, everybody was trading. It was just a big party. Yeah. Love and peace. I mean, getting high. I mean, it was great. Great.

Crazy small fact. We did the Music Cares event for Bruce Springsteen. Yeah. And we did um atlantic city me you you myself and natalie manes and jason on guitar wasn't it in la it was in la i'm just to say that bruce came up to give his his acceptance speech and he was like charlie muscle white i used to open for him in san francisco yeah oh that's right he was out there for a couple years yeah he i remember playing in a club called the matrix and him and santana opened for me there but it wasn't the

e street band they had another name right it was a rock band no or was it it was it bruce springsteen oh i don't remember oh right yeah yeah yeah yeah you remember him though right as a kid yeah i wasn't a kid he was he was yeah you knew Yeah. You knew Mike Bloomfield, too, huh? Real well. He lived a block away from me for a long time. And I was living in the back of a record store. And he'd come over, oh, three, four times a week. And we'd just hang out.

Which record store? It was called the Old Wells Record Shop on Wells Street in Old Town in Chicago. Didn't Big Joe live there, too? Yeah, and Big Joe Williams lived in the back, too. Really? That's some shit. We were living in the basement of another record store. Which one, Delmark?

Yeah, well, it was called the Jazz Record Mart on Grand Avenue at State. And Joe, he, Joe didn't like Bob. I mean, Joe really hated Bob. What's his name, Bob Costler? Kester. Kester, yeah. Joe hit him in the head with the phone. Bob thought he had been on the phone too long.

Anyhow, I got in a fight with Bob, and I remember leaving the store and hearing Bob standing in the doorway hollering, I'll never pay you the money I owe you. So I moved over to this other record store. And Joe had been out of town when he came back and found out what happened. He was real happy.

Moved in with me. So we were both back there. Now, why was it an obvious go-to to move into, most people would move into an apartment, right? Yeah. You think. Why the record store? Another record store. He used to live there. to move into most people would move into an apartment right yeah you think why why the record another record store yeah well i knew the guy that and and i hung out there a lot and he was

a real character at one time in the 40s or 50s or both he had the largest black owned uh record store on the south side of chicago yeah and all these jazz guys hung out there and they all knew him. And now they would come visit him at his little store in Old Town. I met a lot of Sonny Stitt and Jackie McLean and Roy Eldridge. I mean, guys like that would just stop in to see Bill. And hang out? Yeah. And you listened to a lot of jazz? Oh yeah, because there were all the clubs right around that little area, all these jazz clubs i could since the doorman knew me i could go in and see all these what was the jazz scene

at that point was like hard bop or bebop or what was going on what year well you know you had roscoe mitchell and the chicago art ensemble oh yeah yeah malachi favors and jody oreo and sunny stitt and jackie mclean would play. Gosh, you name somebody. Speaking of that era, are we talking about like Lionel Hampton, Toots Tillman's big band? Not big bands like that. More like trios or quartets. Did that have an influence on your playing?

Well, probably. I mean, I was listening to how horn players phrased for ideas. Yeah. Just like little Walter did. Yeah. And you get them? You could hear them? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. It made sense to me. Yeah. It was just a natural step. Both reed instruments. Yeah. All good jazz players start out playing blues. Yeah, that's true.

If they come from the classical into jazz, it's stiff and brittle. If you come from the blues, it's got that grease. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So now the new record that I have here, or that one we're talking about now, No Mercy in This Land, that song's a heavy song. You're going to play that song, right?

We're going to try to play that today. Yeah. How long did it take you to put this one together and what was the process of writing it? The record took five years. Wow. When we walked out the door from Get Up, I said, man, I think we might have something here.

Yeah. And I set to, between the release of that record and this one, set to putting pen to paper. And did you do, like, oh, so you done, but you did the one with your mom in between then. Yeah. And you did one with your put in pen to paper. And did you do like, oh, so you done, but you did the one with your mom in between then. Yeah. And you did one with your band. Yes, exactly.

But you were working on these together? All the while, I just wouldn't let any of the songs that I knew would fit Charlie that I would be writing. I just put them away. That one's for Charlie. That's with Charlie. You know, I'd know. Yeah, yeah.

I'd have a certain thing. Yeah, yeah. So five years. And then you just, what, you'd send them to Charlie? You just said, I'm done. Come on, Charlie, let's do these. Pretty much. It just sort of led, just the time opened up.

The song's material was ready. Yeah. And we were just ready. Right, Charlie? It wasn't a defined thing so much. No, we just went in and we all knew what to do. Yeah. Yeah.

The music led us. Yeah, yeah. And then you put out an album in the last you put up this album in between get up and the last one right but this is the one you did between the one you did with him and this new one that's like a you know my own label yeah it's great man what do you oh you want to show me this guitar so let me try to set up a functioning studio for you guys to play and the record is out well I'll do the set up later but let's just try to get set up

cool what would be the first thing you'd say to the Lord? The last thing you'd dream if you couldn't dream no more Would you please help me understand Is there no mercy in this land? No mercy in this land No mercy in this land Followed the river Till the river ran dry

Followed my lover Till we said goodbye Followed you through the soldiers Who fought on command Is there no mercy in this land? These days I speak in whispers Travel only to and from Come close you'll see the ring Of a well-bitten tongue

The righteous and the wretched The holy and the damned Is there no mercy in this land? No mercy in this land. No mercy in this land. Father left us down here all alone My poor mother was a stone With an aching heart And trembling hands Is there mercy in this land?

Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh Thank you. I don't have a mic, but thank you guys for coming. Thanks, Mark, for having us. Thanks for having us. It's such an honor. Thanks for having us. How great was that? Did you hear that harp? Did you hear that harp just rolling? Both of them, through those little Fender Champs, man, mic'd with the 58s, singing through the SM7s.

I did what I could, folks. I did what I could. I loved having them here. I'm off to Europe next week. So I'll be doing dispatches from there. Broadcasting from the rooms. From the rooms of Europe. Yeah, that's true.

I was just thinking about the timeline. London, Oslo, Stockholm, Amsterdam, Dublin. There are still tickets left for some of those shows go to wtfpod.com slash tour i will be playing guitar in here when i get back uh please take care of yourself and uh and i wish myself safe travels okay boomer lives We'll see you next time. anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes. We can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.

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