WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 909 - Bradley Whitford

Episode Date: April 22, 2018

Bradley Whitford was a huge Key and Peele fanboy who was desperate to work with them. But he didn't know what to think when Jordan Peele asked him if he liked horror movies. It turns out Bradley wound up starring in one of the most talked about movies of the last decade. Bradley tells Marc about the making of Get Out, as well as his experiences on Transparent, The West Wing, Studio 60, and what it was like to make movies with Steven Spielberg and Clint Eastwood. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what the fucking ears what's happening what is what the fucking avians yeah how's that because i'm in scandinavia it's kind of a riff on scandinavians did you get that did you dig it i did that for all the people that will you know hopefully have come to my show last night i've traveled to uh oslo norway which is where i'm at now in a hotel room that is overlooking the national theater which is quite a building. It has been a fun and exciting trip here to the birthplace of Minnesota, and it gives me a whole new insight into the upper

Midwest of America. But Norwegians and Swedes in their environment, very pleasant people. It's beautiful up here, though. Honestly, and don't tell Sweden this, but I'm enjoying Oslo a little more. Maybe I've just locked into the groove. Maybe I've relaxed into it a little bit. Or maybe it's just there's something different about this city. I like both of them. But Oslo is very beautiful. I went to a castle.

It was around a long time ago. And then they made some renovations. It has been used on and off over the years. There's several different types of rocks involved from different eras that things were built on. It's up on a hill. There's bricks and wooden doors. There's archways. There's holes for cannons.

And it overlooks a fjjord i believe it would be i believe that i'm now just half a two blocks away from a fjord which i don't think i have been before and uh went to a lovely museum here great great contemporary art collections in both uh sweden and and here i would tell you the name of that um of that gallery if i could. Oh, here, I have the museum guide right here. It's the Astrup Fernley Musite. I don't know. I don't know how to pronounce it. Let's just say museum. And I saw some great stuff there. I did. I really did. And Sarah even liked most of it. It was exciting to go see contemporary art where it's very personal for her because these are people she knows. She's got her tastes.

And I need to be educated sometimes. I don't quite know why things I like are important or not important. But I learn. I learn, which is a nice way to say, I take it, folks. I take it. Oh, boy. Having a good time out here on the road. Good times. So we went to the Viking Museum, to a Viking Museum, and I saw a Viking ship. And there was a bunch of Viking artifacts around. And I don't know. I feel very connected to it. I'm not sure what I'm experiencing here in Norway.

But I feel very connected. And I highly doubt that I have any unknown Viking ancestry. Though it's possible. It looks like they got around. Looks like at some point they might have even dipped into Poland. It looks like they parked a ship, if I was looking at the routing correctly. They made it all over the place. Ireland, I believe Dublin, if I'm not mistaken,

from the two sentences I read earlier that I'm assuming are true, might have even been founded by Vikings. There seemed to be some Gaelic-Viking crossover, but they got around, man. They got all the way down around to the top of Africa. They got around in the Mediterranean Sea, and then they kind of moved up. They noodled up into Europe, and it looks like they might have touched ground just outside of Poland and hiked down into Poland, perhaps doing some conquering,

some pillaging, maybe a little raping. So I'm not saying that I have any Viking in me. What I am saying, what I am positing here is that it's possible and perhaps I should get my genetics done because I would like to know if I have any Viking in me because the pull is pretty strong up here. But I'd like to believe that I am one of a select few viking jews you know the viking jews the jews that you know got a little queasy on the boats

weren't great with swords uh but uh but see that then see what i'm stereotyping i'm i just caught myself in a i was stereotyping viking jews There were some tremendous Viking Jews, very powerful conquerors, conquerors. Goldberg the Almighty was, as everybody knows, one of the most powerful Viking Jews. There was Stein the Frightening, if people remember. There was Iskowitz, the terror of poland for a minute you do look at the the swords and the uh engravings and stuff and you find out you find

how it's come it's very compelling and you can see where the metal guys like it where the leather guys like it where you know belts people who make belts and leather things enjoy viking stuff people with uh you know hardy beards i mean i get it i get it people who enjoy wearing helmets with horns on them which are back i don't know where you live but there's a i think there's some of that going on in brooklyn maybe out in highland park where i used to live you're seeing the horns on helmets again. The helmets that come all the way down with the steel nose guard are happening. It was only a matter of time.

Once the beards came out, it was only a matter of time before the horned helmets would make their way back into coffee shops. Did I mention that Bradley Whitford is on the show today for no real reason? Did I mention that Bradley Whitford is on the show today for no real reason? He's, it's always nice to talk to Bradley. I've met him a couple of times. He's one of those guys that I'm like, I know I'm going to get along with this guy. But he was, you know, he's a nice chap, but he wasn't really plugging anything. Just came by, wanted to hang out, talk a bit.

It was really like that. It was really like that. It was really like that. So what's going on in the States? I got to say, I haven't been watching TV. I've been checking the news occasionally. It doesn't seem like anything great is happening. It does feel like something is falling apart. I just hope it's the right thing.

Oh, boy. I'm too, now I'm a little giddy. I don't know if the air is thin here. It does stay light a long long time it's only about five or six hours of darkness it feels like maybe i don't know i just we i go to bed it just got dark at like 9 30 10 i wake up you know sometimes during the night and it seems like it's white at four or five i don't you know i could research i could research all of this but as some of you know i like like to speculate. I'm enjoying it here. Oh, yeah, I just realized. You know what might be doing it?

What might be creating some genetic exhilaration and connectivity to this region is smoked fish. Like that might be it. Like I had some herring this morning and some smoked salmon and some rye and maybe that's just triggered something maybe it's not genetic at all maybe it just it got all my jew genes excited and then i felt connected to everything because i'd been fished up in the morning got i got the smoked fish buzz of my people all right now i'm going to google jew Google Jews in Norway because I don't know if I'm the only one here right now. Anyways, Bradley Whitford back in the garage. This is still some of the archive from the old garage.

And you can see him on the new season of The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu, which premieres this week. And, of course, he had a great year in 2017 in the movie Get Out and the other movie, The Post. A lot of Whitford around. Good guy. He's got an edge to him, this guy. Got a little bit of an edge from the Midwest, too, as I recall. Maybe he's part Viking. I can't remember if we talked about that.

Two Vikings. Watch out for us. Brooklyn. We're the ones wearing the helmets with the horns. This is me and Bradley Whitford back in the garage. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on under the influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario cannabis store and a cast

creative. Death is in our air. and ACAS Creative. by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

I guess I don't generally talk politics, but no, I guess it's Hollywood. I don't know. I don't know what this podcast is. I've had a lot of different types of people here, I'd like to think. But I did have a, yeah, I had a sitting president. Yeah, yeah. Did he sit here? He sat there.

He sat here. Yeah, he sat right there. You've met him before, though, haven't you? Yeah. Yeah, well, okay. here he sat there he sat here yeah he sat right there you've met him before though haven't you uh yeah yeah well okay don't you west wing alumni have special privileges within the democratic uh government yeah yeah any of you could just go to the white house and you're like oh come on you you're familiar with i have to i have to tell you it's incredible to me how as an actor everybody loves hollywood yeah they will let you in anywhere i was doing research for one of the first movies i did presumed innocent and i was playing a lawyer and they said well you can go to court yeah and it

was a superior court judge yeah in new york and i walk in and she goes oh you're with the movie come up sit next to me and i'm sitting next to this judge as she's sentencing people presumed innocent though that was like that was a pretty good uh who directed that was it alan pacool yeah right and this was like you know he did the parallax view didn't yeah and he did sophie's choice yeah oh that's right all the president's men too yeah all the president's men that's such a great fucking movie yeah it is oh it's unbelievable all the president's men but okay so working on the post yeah so how does that work you get a you get a script from spielberg you got to audition what yeah i imagine you got cast. You didn't have to go read for it, did you? I read the original script,

and then there was, I heard talk that they were interested in me. And then you go over to Amlin, and you go through some extreme security and a delousing procedure. Really? They look in your eyeball, your iris, and they thumbprint? And then you go into a secure room and you sign an NDA.

Before reading the script? Yes. Right. No, before cuddling with Mr. Spielberg. You're not seeing, you broke the NDA. I'm sorry. I broke it. I broke it. I broke it.

And so I read it and then. You got to go sit there at Amblin to read it? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And then

I was leaving. It was a great script and I'm leaving and then they said, no, he wants to talk to you and then I go into a room and he comes in and like'm leaving. And then they said, no, he wants to talk to you. And then I go into a room and he comes in. And like as an actor, you're like, you know, do I have it?

He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But he was funny. He was like, this character is not a real human being. This is not a human who existed. It's a kind of an amalgamation of sort of right male business interests yeah so he goes i like it when i don't know it's you which is either a compliment right or uh or a criticism but he said throw yourself off a little bit visually i'm like okay what does that mean to you in that moment uh i i i sort of get what he wants i immediately go to a joke like you know can i give him a you know seizures you know right you know is there something like- A tick. A tick. Yeah. Yeah. Mild Tourette's.

Mild Tourette's. Yeah. I actually joked with him about that, about the opportunity. Like, I could do something incredibly crazy and specific, and everybody watching this movie would think, wow, he must be nailing it, because nobody would just play it like that. And then he said said i want you to

sound a little different but then you then you an accent uh and he goes yeah but i don't really want to know it's an accent i'm like so like a half ass accent yeah uh he's basically just saying like don't bring yourself too much to this part leave you at home i want you i need you to act not that much yeah and then but the funny thing is that i go like it's a complicated script you know it moves around a little too much for my okay okay i liked it you were good steven uh that's uh that's what Mark Maron thinks of you. Um, yeah. So I said, are we going to rehearse?

And he goes, no, I don't, I don't, I don't like to rehearse. Uh, he goes, Merrill wants to rehearse, but, and I'm like, maybe you should do what Merrill wants. Yeah. Um, and he goes, no, I don't like to rehearse. And I think there are virtues actually weirdly to not rehearsing and I go well when's the read through and he goes oh I don't like read throughs

and he goes yeah we're all wants one of those and I said why don't you like read throughs and he said because it gives everyone the impression that this process is more democratic than it really is laughing but that was won the impression that this process is more democratic than it really is really laughing yeah um but that was uh that was interesting so no read-through no rehearsal you just show up for

work on the day they're shooting your scenes yeah and and you go quickly it's interesting because like i did a movie years ago with with eastwood who's like the same thing you don't even know the cameras which movie a perfect world i remember it yeah i remember like because it was like when it was constant played heavy and it was like a big deal like he's playing a shitty guy right right and he was great yeah and that yeah i remember yeah yeah and uh but so the both eastwood and spielberg shoot quick yeah and their virtues, their faults to it, you know. Which are what? You get done with the take and they're moving on.

You're like, but I didn't. Yeah. Well, Clint's thing is, I asked him why he doesn't say action. And he said when he was doing Rawhide, they would struggle to get horses on marks, which is not easy to do. And then these directors would come in and go action and the horse the horse would rear up and he felt like uh people do too oh really interesting well i think so have you ever had directors who have like a big action pronouncement well i mean i haven't done that much you know i know you're probably

thinking about my entire repertoire of films and television shows but i've not done much but yeah certain directors come in they do it differently but never i've never been on a set with a major director where everybody's sort of waiting you know you're on tv set and it's sort of like you know you know the guy who says it and it's all right it's never been that jarring it's it's yeah yeah it's not a big deal. There was one guy that, some people do it, they're dramatic about it. Action! You know, like they, some people just say action

and then action. I know somebody who does action and it's like why are you making this? Joel Schumacher was everybody focused and action! It was was everybody focused and action. It was terrifying.

You're unfocused. Directors, you know, Mike Nichols said this thing about directors that it's like sex. Directors have no idea how other people do it because they're generally the only ones there performing that specific role. Yeah, that's interesting. Unless you start as a cinematographer.

But as an actor, if you're on a series, you're getting fucked by somebody new every week. I mean, you really get to see a lot of different... You really get to see a lot of different styles. Directors, there's... What is the liability, though, of moving quickly, you were going to say?

Well, what's good about it, like, do you care about baseball? Sure. Sure. You know, when knuckleball pitchers come in, nobody, they're very few strikes thrown, and everybody in the field kind of gets lazy and if you know you're going to get an infinite number of takes you tend to not like really get ready yeah spielberg or with eastwood you know that your first take is going to be seen by your grandchildren right so you gear up you know it focuses the mind uh and it's changed now the technology like when west wing started you had to load

film there was this tangible thing that you didn't want to run out of at the end of the tape had those big things that had a snap onto the camera yeah it's called the cart not cartridges or change the uh the mag yeah yeah change the mag and with that there's kind of a psychology of you know we don't want to waste this now almost everybody is shooting digitally and money to waste yeah and their virtues to it i actually think it's changed acting because you can afford to just you know leave it on and catch some behavior but it also drags out the shooting process i think yeah i think that's true i think that like in the same way where like you you know, the shift from typewriter to word

processor to computer that, you know, it enables you not so much to get sloppy, but perhaps to over, you know, like it maybe makes you lazy in a way too, I think. Yeah. If you're scrawling it with a feather and you can't erase it, you're going to really think about it. Check the white out. Yeah. If you've got a hammer and a chisel on a wall, you're really going to think about it.

So that brings up, that's what's good about shooting quick, is that it focuses you and you've really got to show up for work. Yeah, yeah. And also it does something. It's a really interesting thing because actors are always trying to get comfortable in a very uncomfortable situation. It's not and can tend to get too comfortable. And can tend to get too comfortable. Like they will actually, especially in success as an actor, be more comfortable than any human being has ever been asking to pass the salt.

Right. Sure. Right, right, right. Because they're just trying to get comfortable. It's interesting to me how actors spend, like being relaxed is the most important thing as an actor but it can sometimes uh lead to a kind of i don't know passivity yeah but also like there isn't there the threat to and i only notice this with my limited experience in acting that like if you get too comfortable that you might just be you like you just you know comfort yourself right out of the character yeah yeah yeah and where you don't like you do a scene

you're like wait i think i i don't think i was i think i was just me eating can we i forgot the character yeah right i mean i i is that possible or is that Yeah. I mean, it's a weird thing because you're always, like, it's a whole discussion. Like, so when did you start? Acting? Yeah. Oh, I mean, like, you know, I did a little in college here and there, but I did four seasons of my own show on IFC. Yes.

And I knew that there was a curve. I knew I could be present and I knew I could listen. That's all you need to do. But there's something about movement that, you know, you're going to be awkward the first bit. You know, I knew my first season. You were awkward physically playing yourself? Yeah, yeah, because, like, you know, you don't want to be self-conscious of what you're saying, which I'm good at not doing that. But I do get self-conscious of, like, should I just be standing here?

Am I, my hands, what's going on? You know, like, that kind of shit. But then that goes away. So I haven't been doing it professionally for that long. Like with Glow, this is only the second big thing I've done. I like Glow. Oh, thanks. I mean, I'm just a small part of it, but I appreciate you liking it.

Yeah. You're welcome. But no, but I find myself like this second season, I started to like, originally I was sort of like, man, there's a lot of waiting around. Oh God. Right? And you're waiting around. Oh God. Right. And you're waiting around to do like a five minute thing. And,

and like, you know, you, you can't get mad about it because, you know, you're lucky. Yeah. And also that's the job,

but it's like, I didn't, I didn't act my whole life. So a lot of times when I'm on set, I'm like, I could be doing other shit. Okay. Listen,

I find this, I say all the time, I love acting I despise shooting the process is I love the community on the set but it is

this weird combination of glacial and anxious and it is you always think I'm gonna be able to get something done you can't get anything done no you just sit there with your phone all day you know and then like i imagine whatever you shot last you're just looking at the news constantly and trying to balance that emotional reaction with whatever you're doing yeah i i it's it's it's, it's an excruciating.

Yeah. We were on set when Trump won all those women and me were there that night. Jesus. How was that? It's horrible. There, everyone was crying. Right.

It was terrible. But, but in, in terms of your question, asking me like, I haven't been doing it that long. And what I've noticed, what I was getting at was that in the second season, I realized,

well, you know, work when you got to work, like, really enjoy it if you like acting it's it's going to happen your scene's coming up right you know so deliver you know be in it as much as you can like that's when the work happens it's in television it's you know it happens quickly you got to do some coverage but like you know here comes your time you've been sitting around for four hours right right yeah get right yeah yeah you got to get ready but the process is excruciating when i die and go to hell it's going to be final touches forever like people grabbing stuff yeah you're just touching you but that's the other thing i think that that like, I imagine, like, I have some natural ability,

but I don't really, I don't mind, like, I'm not paying attention when people are touching my face and my hair and, you know what I mean? Like, I'm in a different zone. And this was, I was going to ask you when you're working with certain people, like, I work with Alison Brie, who's very good. Yes. She's very good. She is.

And I don't have a lot of experience working with you right she's a very experienced actress and she did really did something with that character there are moments where i'm watching her in scenes and in my mind i'm like oh look at her she's just doing it you know like you know beyond the character and then do you have a moment of like oh shit i'm not thinking the character's thoughts oh yeah yeah well yeah yeah. But I think that's the next frontier for me. I'm not sure I know exactly how to think the character's thoughts. I react. I listen.

I know the guy. But there are parts, a lot of times, I think being present and acknowledging what's happening keeps me present, but it's not the character's thoughts. Yeah, I think, yeah. Doesn't everyone have their own trick i you know like my thing like the way i deal with uh like what seems to be an interfering thought yeah you know that would be like i'm not in the scene there's usually a way to kind of judo it back like certainly with nerves and with panic yeah you can put it uh you know into into the scene it goes to where

look acting's a very like one of my kids said like no offense but i've seen dogs be good in movies you know and it's true how's that kid doing uh i'm like you're welcome uh uh but nobody nobody like nobody knows how to teach acting that's why because like so much of it is is you know either you can or you can't it's like teaching writing like and because nobody knows how to do it you have these cults like you know fundamentalist christian sects that who look at a complicated world and go you got to do it this way right and then but but but you do like i think the experience i don't like the gordon lish writing cult in New York, and then there's all these acting cults out here. But the one thing that gets you is it gets you interacting with other people.

But where did you train, mostly? I went to college and did theater in English at Wesleyan. And then I went to Juilliard for four years. But see that's the thing about training to be an actor. Some place like Juilliard you're doing movement, you're doing dance you're doing sword play Yeah but all that stuff

doesn't matter. Kind of but I Yes you can teach how to use your voice It gets in your body. Yes but you can teach how to use your voice. Gets in your body. Yes. Yeah, but you can't. Nobody knows how to teach acting.

The one thing you can agree on is you got to be in the moment. You got to want something. Can't teach anyone how to be Gene Hackman. No. Right? No. anyone how to be jane hackman no right no like the you know or error you it's just like you when you look at huge movie actors whatever whoever taught them whatever what what it doesn't matter no well it's like you know it's it's like writing you just like you just got to do it a lot and have

some people with some good taste telling you what to do yeah and you've done a hell of a lot and have some people with some good taste telling you what to do. Yeah, and you've done a hell of a lot. Well, let's go back. Where were you spawned? How did it happen? Why are you you? Where'd you come from? Why am I me? It's funny because I'm thinking about this.

Today is my mother's 103rd birthday. She passed away. Oh. God, I was hoping that was a better story. Yeah, it would have been better my parents had three kids a massive break my brother yeah the mistake and i'm like the mistakes friend so i have oh they had him and then they're, we got to have another one to... A playmate. Oh, really? So my mom was 46 when I was born, which was weird. This year, my three oldest siblings will all have been married 50 years, which is kind of weird.

Isn't that weird? So what's the biggest amount of... 19 years. Between you and the youngest one? No, and the oldest. I'm the baby. Right. 19 years. Yeah. So you didn't even know them. They were and the youngest one? No, and the oldest. I'm the baby. Right. 19 years.

Yeah. So you didn't even know them. They were out of the house? She was in college. Yeah. And I have a niece who's 47. Wow. Yeah.

I have a ton of nephews and nieces. But what that meant was my parents, I was born in Madison, Wisconsin. I like Madison, Wisconsin. Madison, Wisconsin is fantastic. It's a nice town. It's a great town. It's- College is there.

Yeah, it's like Austin. Yeah, and there's like smart, sweet people in the Midwest. Yeah, and it's kind of a progressive shangri-la it's right it's not as affected as austin i don't think i think like there's a like the the progressiveness of the midwest when it's there it seems a little deeper a little more humble yes yes you know yeah play people yeah they're very very sweet yeah very very sweet um so i was born there then i moved moved to Pennsylvania, and then went back to Wisconsin for high school. Uh-huh. What was the business of the folks?

My dad was a frustrated musician. He basically worked his way up in an insurance company, but he was an amazing piano player. He had perfect pitch. Jazz? Yeah, kind of big band you know stuff oh yeah but it was interesting because he always i think kind of i could tell that he kind of got off but he never thought it was a practical thing right for any anybody to do it's interesting to me because i think about this, people parenting now, like our generation of parenters are like, hey, we're cool.

You know, we're totally cool with whatever you want to be, but what the fuck are you? Like, are you a jock? You know, are you... Are you talking about the parents or the kids? Yeah, the parents. There's this weird... They're not grown up yet is what you're saying yes yeah yeah they're overly

invested in trying to control this process i was the fifth kid yeah my my parents were like you know love them keep them out of traffic good luck they'll be whatever they want. So they were appropriately disinterested. Yeah. If my father had done- But loving? Totally loving. Oh, yeah. That's good. I am extremely lucky. Yeah.

They were at a very happy place. Right. And they knew I was the last one. Yeah. Every time I walked in the room, I felt like my parents would smile. It was really loving. That's great. They've been through the worst of it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They'd already done it, and then they'd kind of chosen to do it again. But I think about the fact that if my dad had come to me after the arsenic and all the lace in seventh grade and said, as I would to my kid now, oh my God, I have never seen you so happy. Do you want to take an acting class? There is no question I would not be an actor because either I would have pulled against the leash or I wouldn't have the sense of ownership that I had because it was always this cool thing that just I was kind of in love with.

Now, my dad loved it. Like, I have just memory after memory of, like, doing a play and my dad standing up with his flash camera. Yeah, yeah. You know, and taking a picture but it's just it's interesting to me that um had he been overly supportive you would have said fuck that oh if bruce springsteen's mom came down and said honey you got something like like you need to take some guitar lessons he'd be a drunk in newark put that guitar down well yeah we've moved from asbury park to newark that's a sad story yeah yeah yeah he had to get out of asbury that's right because his mother was there trying to get him to play guitar yeah play it again bruce no come on

uh well that's well that's interesting i i guess that's true though huh so your dad was accepting but still was like don't don't put all your eggs in one basket kind of thing. No, he was totally, like, it never occurred to me growing up in Wisconsin, like, if you're from here or you're from New York, like, you know somebody who's been in a movie. The idea of being an actor never occurred to me. Even if it had, it would be too embarrassing a thing to say as an aspiration. Right. What did your siblings do? By then, they were working, for Christ's sake. even if it had it would be too embarrassing a thing to say as an aspiration right uh what your siblings do by then they were working for christ they all have careers i would imagine yeah yeah i uh you have a brother's journalist uh i had a sister who's a social worker and writes children's

books a sister is a nurse brother who's an interpreter uh wow it's interesting yeah it's a very liberal arc it is yeah um uh but when i and then i applied to you know schmackning school and uh i remember i said to my dad i said just think of it as like because it was four years what'd you do undergrad though where'd you do undergrad wesleyan what'd you study? English? English and theater. All right, so, but theater, you weren't in the art school. You weren't in the theater school.

You were in the English department, liberal arts. Yeah, it's basically a liberal arts school with a little crazy, you know, batshit theater department. Right, but you were just doing a minor in that no i know i was like a real theater major but the thing about wesleyan uh that that is interesting is it unintentionally created the conditions the ideal conditions i think for people to like learn about acting which is like a mini steppenwolf it was all self-generated stuff because it was so small or it all the interesting stuff was outside the department and there were just these venues where you could put a play up right uh and it wasn't high pressure and people sort of found their voices i was glad

i got to do that act a lot before i got to juilliard yeah which is kind of a zen sucky you know we're gonna strip you down it's a weird uh uh place to be if you're too young i think so you all right so you do the undergrad thing and you and you do a lot of work you you have a good time you do a lot of plays you know you got some chops you took some chances yeah you started to feel the the uh the parameters of your talent right i i the limits i call them you know yeah and what you can and can't do maybe a little bit or no? Yeah. I mean, it was just fun and it did not have any professional aspiration to it. It really didn't. Were you getting good notices?

Were you getting like where people thinking you were good? Yeah. Obviously to audition for Juilliard, you must have thought like, you know, I got this. I can do this. Yeah. I didn't think I could do it. I thought that I could, you know, I got this. I can do this. Yeah, I didn't think I could do it. I thought that I could, you know, try it. I remember, like, pausing, looking at the letter when I got in.

To Juilliard? Yeah, because it was like, you know, this kind of means you're going to try to be an actor. Well, what did you have to do? Did you audition, what, with a modern piece and a classical piece what was the audition do you remember uh look here upon this picture and upon this the counterfeit presentment of a man it was a hamlet yeah thing i don't remember what the modern one but it was those two yeah do two pieces with four people sitting there kind of thing i i hate auditions i i despise them i don't respect them i don't respect their ability to like you know select yeah uh uh talent or ascertain potential yeah i i hate it i'll tell you a really interesting thing uh this happened i really should have

um taken a camera i thought of it yeah my class from juilliard we all got together right which never happens after 31 years we all got together how many are you you? Like 12, 15 people, is it? Like, what is it? It was over 20. Yeah, it was about 20. Back then, they used to put people on probation and kick them out, which was abusive and stupid. Yeah. You know, the actors would come there and they would be told, you know, at the first, I never was, but they'd be told, you know,

you're on probation, which is a great way. For what? Because we might kick you out. But for what? Not being good or. Oh, so that was actually sort of like, you know you're on probation which is a great way for what because we might kick you out but for what not being good or oh oh so that was actually sort of like you know you might you're not you're not you're just not because you there was no transgression other than you might not be talented so we're going to put a little more pressure on you yeah it's it was it was horrible there was there was this whole kind of school of, you know, this kind of British acting Nazi, like school of thinking that I really,

for a long time, disrespected in myself that I felt like I needed a nourishing atmosphere to act in. Now I'm adamant. Like if somebody's a prick or a bully, one of the best things about the luck i've had up to this point is now i can go shut up yeah yeah you insecure son of a bitch yeah uh but there was a lot of crazy at juilliard it was a very tough uh a tough place and there were people who were younger than me there about half the class going to college, half the class hadn't.

18 years old, 19 years old. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. And we all got together and it was, I wish I'd filmed it because it was one of the most moving, we hadn't seen each other,

only a few of us are having the careers that we remotely hoped to have. Right. And people instinctively sat in a circle. It was like a meeting and everybody talked and told their stories. And it was like a chorus line fucked our town i mean it was so inspiring to see what people who we were very very close to uh at this time in our life had gone through and it was heartbreaking and to see the carnage of people walking around with an anvil of failure, you know, feeling, I think, really hurt because they didn't get, you know, the most dangerous thing in the world is to put your self-esteem on a platter and hand it to show business. Yeah.

It won't end well tell me about that that this anvil because like i i think about that a lot in in comedy you know where where this there you know it's not a meritocracy it doesn't matter no it's there's a weird mixture of luck and persistence and representation and whatever there's a million things yes determine whether it is not just talent. Yeah, has any success at all. No, talent is... Sometimes that happens. Sometimes it...

Yeah. Because your talent might be just you're ambitious. You might be good enough. Your talent... Being just good enough is highly rewarded. Yeah, adequate. Adequate. Adequate.

Adequate. So what about these people i mean i'm not looking for names but you you did feel the heartbreak in the room is what you're saying that there was a did what it did it was it and did it end happily this reunion yeah it did i mean i think people are you know at a place it was just interesting it's interesting to me like you must deal with young comedians who get in touch with you who have uh yeah his parents are friends of your parents or something and or they just reach out now because of the podcast or right yeah um like i talk to young actors all the time i talked to one the other day and she's coming out of julia and she's like well if you're good and you really

you know work hard and you really want it you know you can have an acting career right and I'm like I'm like if you're lucky you know I mean one thing I do believe that I say to these kids is is I really do believe that if you're good and you want it and you maybe you won't be an actor but you can have a life in storytelling right like that's what I tell comics I'm like well look don't don't don't bank on stand-up as your only thing because like at any given point in time there's only a few cats that are really making a good living as stand-ups and the rest are hammering it out so if you can write if you can work with other people yeah uh you know if you can you know if you like you know the i think that the sketch community really changed comedy a lot you know it was you know was stand-up driven on tv but now these people that come up through ucb or these sketch communities you know they learn you

know just by virtue of wanting to do that how how to write, how to direct, how to work with other people, how to listen. It's an amazing thing. Well, I tell actors this, too. I think it's a very arbitrary – we're like, yeah, I'm an actor. Well, actually, you're a soldier in the storytelling mission. Yeah. I'm hearing this a lot lately, the storytelling thing. And a lot of people can do a lot of things

they don't think that they can do. And I always tell actors, I'm like, look, man, if you have any desire to write, be writing while you're doing this. Well, yeah, think about all the angles. I'm not naturally like that. I'm a very immediate gratification guy. Even this idea that I've talked to a few actors lately

where what you call the storytelling mission, that we're storytellers, we're part of the story thing. I have to intellectually kind of process that because when I act, I'm like, am I on camera? You know, I like the story. Like, I like the act i'm like it's am i am i on camera you know like this story like i like the story but like yeah no you're not on camera going you know hail the storytelling mission you know but it should be in you is that what you know no all i'm saying is is that at the end of the day this whole thing is about telling stories and actors tend to not understand that

they have a ground zero understanding of how to tell a story they have like a really good sense right of what works and what doesn't and whether it's directing or or writing i want them to be open to that and also just being an actor, it's so passive. You have to be chosen. And it's heartbreaking. I was thinking about this the other day. What's humiliating about being an actor when you're struggling is you're aspiring to an arena you disrespect. Success at show is this and you're failing like it's like a double thing it's not like you want to be a violinist you know in in the new york philharmonic

and you're not you're just not quite there yeah like you're auditioning for a commercial which which which you despise and you're not getting it. It's really rough. It's horrible. There's some moments where I'm like, I don't always know what that is that keeps people going other than like, well, you know, there's plenty of big actors that have done commercials. I know that level. This is just a stepping stone.

It's part of this process. But there's also, I'm starting to realize that some actors, some who are lucky or some actors who do end up getting work, you know, they just, they don't like doing anything. They don't like acting? No, they like acting, but they're just lucky because like if they were given some other job, they would do nothing. There are people that act and it's sort of like, are you kidding? I get to pretend and then I sit around. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like, right. It's great. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They're not hung up on writing or anything else. They're like, this is like, it's like a con. You know what I mean? Like, uh, I mean,

I'm, that's the negative side of it, but, but the heartbreaking side. One of the Duplass brothers said one of the greatest, uh, not Jay. What's the brother? Mark?

Is it Mark? Yeah, Mark. Somebody asked him, is there a difference between acting, writing, and producing? And he's like, yeah, there's a big difference. And they said, what is it? And he goes, you know, if you're writing or producing or directing, it's literally like you're raising a kid. You're in a constant sense of anxiety. Am I going to be able to bring this child to its full potential? When you're an actor, you're like a drunk uncle who shows up, gives the kids a bag of Oreos, and lets somebody else put them to bed.

That's right. But yeah, but that heartbreak of that you know yeah the fact that you've studied you're trained and you got to go do an audition for a commercial you want nothing to do with but that that's sort of like balancing that you can't be idealistic like you know to get into acting for the art of it that that has to be crushed pretty quickly you know once you realize. Yeah, no, I talk to young kids who come with, you know, a real kind of artistic, you know, snobbery. And, you know, I'm like, okay, you know. Okay, sweetheart, good luck.

Good luck, angel. But did you do, you did theater, right? So you come out of, what did you learn at Juilliard ultimately? What did I learn? Yeah. Without being cynical or funny, you must have learned something uh here's here's what you learn uh i the great thing about juilliard was i went into debt you know but i was acting 90 of the day and that's what what is the most important thing And I'm doing very strange parts that I would not normally be cast in, which even if I didn't, not necessarily in order to be cast in those parts when you get out, but I think it's a really good exercise to play things that are outside your range.

Right. So you can see, you know know it's owning your own territory what what can i do right yeah uh and you were just acting all the time yeah like these schools are like you know it's like shrinks it's like the shrink thinks it's them right no what's making somebody get better is they're just coming and saying what's on their mind. You know, that's 90% of it with the occasional insight. So it's just, it was a relentless, you know, four years of just acting in many, many different crazy things. Who were, did we know anybody that was in your class?

Tom Gibson, Wendell Pierce. know anybody that was in your class uh tom gibson uh wendell pierce uh-huh um uh you know those are the most you know sort of recognizable and the people that you saw at this reunion did some of them move out of show business entirely some do other things some teach uh a lot of people, you know, kind of don't do it anymore. But it's true in the other... I knew a guy who came in second in the Tchaikovsky competition, which is a really hard thing to do. You go into these... Like, this is amazing, Julia. You go in these, like, practice rooms,

and this guy who, like, nine hours a day since he was eight and he just like takes a breath and he's and he throws his hands at the piano and he's moaning and you know playing there's like beethoven so it's like the most incredible thing you ever see he comes in second in the tchaikovsky competition what does he do now i don't know he teaches piano to kids who don't want to learn. Yeah. You know, it's brutal. Yeah. That's a very specific thing. That's a good thing about acting is that you- You can start a culty acting class.

Well, no, you can do commercials. You know that guy? Yeah. You know, the calling for a prodigy. Right. It's like, you know, either you the the soloist who plays with the orchestra right or what yeah yeah i mean i guess you could play how many new piano soloists are there every year i don't know if like they're i'm not keeping up yeah yeah yeah and and they tend to stay stay

around and work into working old age so it's tough. You know, it's tough in the arts. It's tough. But so, okay, so you do all this acting and you get out. And are you doing theater? What happens right away? I get out and initially crickets, nothing is happening. What did you try to do? Were you in New York?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You stayed in New York. I was in New York. I worked for a catering company. Did you do a showcase for agents and that whole thing? yeah nothing no i got an agent uh but then nothing was happening i'd gone you know four years of graduate school were you doing theater well initially i was catering yeah in the philip morris dining room seventh level of Yeah. This corporate dining room where you had to arrange these bouquets of cigarettes. And this is like 1985 and you hear these slithery tanned people talk about the opportunities to give away cigarettes in front of girls schools in China.

That was fun. And then I worked at the World Trade Center. Bouquets of cigarettes. Yeah, bouquets of cigarettes. And then- Did you smoke? Did I? Yeah.

I would bum cigarettes. Oh, you never smoked. But I wouldn't buy. You don't got the personality? You don't got the addictive thing? No, I have to be careful with them. Like, you know, I'll bum them yeah i i realized that early on i then got a get a part in a play and uh you know after acting would be a time where somebody else would have a cigarette and i'd bum

a cigarette yeah uh and i thought well i i only have cigarettes when I work. And then I realized I work all the time. Yeah, I'm always bumming cigarettes. You worked at the World Trade Center? Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the Port Authority dining room. This was in, you know, like 85. And then I got Bill Pullman dropped out of a show, Curse of the Starving Class, that was moving from off-off-Broadway to off-Broadway.

And he got a part in a movie, which was a big deal. And he had to take it. And they were opening in a week. And they thought about closing it down. But I ended up getting it. So my first gig was this Curse of the Starving Class, which was this Sam Shepard play with Kathy Bates, which was like dream gig. Wow. I mean, it was scary.

You had to urinate on stage. You had to, this kid freaks out. I usually don't like nudity in plays because you just sit there and go, oh, wow, I hope that actor's cousin isn't here. That guy's naked. Yeah, well, that's happening. But it was a weird thing because this guy comes out completely naked and ends up slaughtering a lamb who we called Merle Sheep.

And it was this, and I had to go into it in a week and it's a big part with a big monologue and i got to meet sam shepherd and that was intense you're what 22 23 no i'm 24 yeah and he was directing or he was just around? No, he just came by with Jessica Lange. Oh, you're fancy pants now. Yeah, yeah. Did you know Pullman? No, no. I ran into him in the Mayfair a couple years ago, and I was like, thanks for the career.

Because it really was like the first... Did he remember? Did he know? Yeah, yeah. He was very sweet about it. But it was weird. I had this great, you know, for like nine months I was doing this play and it was weird. You know, Kathy Bates was amazing.

She's great. She's great. I, the first night I had to go on, I had to learn this play in like six days. Yeah. And there's a big monologue at the beginning. Yeah. And I remember the first couple of days of rehearsal where you're looking into these wonderful actors' eyes and you can see that they don't think you're going to be able to get there,

which is a horrible thing. And I survived it. Kind of sympathetic. Yeah, yeah. Oh, honey. Sweetie, are you giving it a go? Anyway, I was backstage right before it was opening night, and there were critics, and I'd gotten the thing like a week before. And I'm backstage, and it's emotional at the beginning and I'm sitting on the floor,

my legs are crossed and I'm like, you know, getting emotional and Kathy Bates walks by, what are you doing? Preparing? Nice. nice um but there's a guy named eddie jones i really wouldn't be an actor if this guy who played my dad eddie jones who was this terrific actor was got me through that oh yeah yeah i could have you know it was scary i was walking around i can't imagine it yeah i mean like and you just did it here's when you don't want to be naked. Yeah. In rehearsal. Like, if the play's going on, that's great. Like, you're in the reality of the play, whatever that is, and you're naked.

What you don't want to hear is the director go, okay, hang on one second. Because then you're just a schmuck with your dick hanging out. I'd stand in there with other people. Yeah, it's like, can we not break the reality? And it's not like movies or TV where you got a dick sock on. No, you just got to wear that. Yeah, those are weird. Yeah, they are weird.

Yeah, I'm wearing one right now. Oh, really? Yeah. You took a liking to it? You figure you wear it? Oh, my God. So how did Eddie Jones help you? He just said to me was he is an incredibly kind

guy yeah faith in me when he shouldn't have uh-huh and you had a lot of scenes with him yeah he uh you know he was my dad it's that complicated shepherd just shepherd thing yeah yeah shepherd daddy yeah oh wow well that's nice it's nice to have that the the one person with faith where they or trust or you at least can relax you know or know that like you have some support yeah i mean i think that like yeah i'm like trying to manage that confidence without it curdling in you know it's breaking apart into an insecure well arrogance but the other way like you know like what it takes to sort of a full shame spot yeah like you know like that's the one thing that experience gets you is is less of those

but i have to say one thing that's interesting to me is that you can always incorporate you can always judo your performance insecurity into whatever's going on in the scene and actually there is nothing worse than a fully confident actor oh yeah no i i agree with that i would i mean it makes sense to me but like what i'm surprised at is that i don't know how deep the Shane Sparrow's go with you, but as you get older, you can choose to not honor that voice. To not like, I can't do this. I can't. And just drag everyone around you down.

Right. It took a long time for me to just sort of like, no, just keep it to yourself. Right. You know what I mean? Well, I have this whole thing like with, I am not somebody who I don't think is a prick on a set. Yeah. And I have the other problem is, you know, I want to be loved. And run around making funnies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that be loved. Running around making funnies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. But if I'm honest, any time any director has ever said anything to me, I go through three silent beats. Fuck you. I suck. Okay, what?

And I really believe that that is a universal uh response and some people get stuck on i suck some you know people who live there uh some people live on fuck you yeah yeah most people pretty quick get to the you know but you hear you you the the cycle starts right when it's probably just bradley yeah yeah yeah yeah just the tone of your name being called. You know, Brad. Oh, Matt Perry and I used to, like, these directors would do these, like, devastating notes, like, right before you roll.

Like, they go, guys, can we be quiet? Are we rolling? Okay, we're rolling and brad don't push for that joke action so you know like some devastating yeah you know or are we rolling brad just pick the prop up you know don't make a meal action you know like you're totally humiliated so when Matt you're trying too hard I got to direct back yeah don't try too hard you know just say the line action don't do all don't do that shit with your face action so so when when when I got to direct uh would like to fuck with Matt,

I would- On what? On Studio 60. Oh, yeah. I would go, are we rolling? Okay, rolling, okay. And Matt, you peaked 10 years ago. Action, you know. There is no happiness.

The reward is death. Action. Like these devastating notes that you have to like you know go right into what do you think happened with that show what do i uh you know here's here's what i think about that show studio 60 studio 60 uh aaron needs kind of moral elevation. Well, yeah, let's talk about that first. So where did your relationship with him start? It's funny because people ask me,

like, how did you meet Aaron Sorkin? I did a movie that I was snobby about doing called Revenge of the Nerds 2, Nerds in Paradise. Yeah, was that one of those acting decisions you made where you thought i can really take my craft to i'm gonna dig deep i want to explore this i mean i've played an asshole but i've never played one on vacation yeah um and i met a guy tim busfield who and he and i would hang out we went to the the Humana Festival in Louisville and saw a bunch of plays.

And then he went in to, he replaced in a few good men. And then he said to Aaron, I think you, this guy, I think you should see this guy. So I auditioned for Aaron and Aaron made me like the Kevin Bacon part. Yeah. And then I got to understudy the lead and then I got a really big shot

because usually they put, no offense to me a fading television star in one of these things to keep a play going but he ended up giving it, Aaron stepped in and said no I want him to be the lead so I got to be the lead in a Broadway play

which was stunning and I didn't deserve it. And that's where I met him. And because like with him, I don't know him at all, you know, but I find that as time goes on, that it's a, Sorkinese is its own sort of, it's its own type of writing, its own type of acting in a way. Like I started to notice it,

not just, not like West Wing, but more, a little there, but also in the movies that in order to play Sorkin, you have to know how to do it. It is, listen, I've seen really good actors who just like get the zen sucked out of them, having to do it.

And there is this technical verbal obligation that you have to get to your unconscious place so that your blood can flow. So that your blood can flow. Like the key to it, it's the same thing with Mamet. Who pisses me off because he teaches acting. Why does that piss you off? Because he's a playwright. And what do you think about the way he teaches acting? I think it's playwright centric.

It's like, just say my words very clearly. You're a pawn in my game. Yes, yes. Anyone can do what you do. Anyone do it just just talk say my words but the great mammoth actors their blood is flowing while they're fulfilling you know this they're great actors despite him they didn't learn how to act through mammoth no right no yeah sure you can bring life to the rhythm, man. It's like Shakespearean in a way. Yeah, yeah. And some people just get fritzed thinking about the logistics of the language. And also just like, I imagine part of an actor's struggle with Sorkin would be like,

would a person say this? Doesn't matter. If you put the emotion into it they it will they will seem as though they would say it yeah i i like i never felt like yeah i i mean it wasn't he's a very interesting writer it's really fun to do i bet when when it's like flowing it feels like like you know volleyball or something no i love it like and i didn't notice it until really, until the Steve Jobs movie. Because I watch that movie and whatever anyone else was saying about whether it was real, whether it wasn't real. I'm like, well, it doesn't matter if it's real.

This is like Hepburn and Tracy. In order to do this language thing that he does, you've got to get it. And when it's working, it's spectacular. I mean, I don't give a fuck about whether the story is, you know, the device of the story. Listen, it's extraordinary. That guy wrote 11, the equivalent of 11 feature films a year.

With West Wing. For four years. It will never be done again it's an extraordinary achievement um uh nobody will ever do that yeah nobody's ever going to do it and he was writing you know we would go in i remember these like uh you go in and it was like you know you got a new arthur miller play every week was everybody like was were you and allison everyone else was just like oh my god every like every script that came out they were pretty you know they were pretty great and they were they were a lot of they were a lot of fun i mean a, Aaron is an impatient, in the best way, an impatient showman.

He's desperately worried he's going to lose the audience's attention. So he brings these wonderful characters and there's a lot of wit. You were talking about Studio 60. One of the things with Studio 60 is like on west wing you have the political world like basically you got c-span and you bring in wit yeah and you're like oh thank you funny when you're doing snl yeah and you bring in wit you're pissed off yeah uh you know i always felt that show i remember talking with Aaron about it, that I felt,

you know, like I want to see, like I want to see, and I think Aaron could write a great, well, I guess he did afterwards, but like an Anderson, I think like Anderson Cooper is under interesting pressures,

you know, where he does his, you know, talks about a school shooting, does a presidential campaign, and then does, you know then has to get ratings. Right. SNL, the urgency in that show,

that show was basically a show about writer's block. Studio 60. Yeah, and tried to build this terror of all the pressure that was on Matt's character. Well, I know Saturday Night Live is going to be on this week and I know they'll get something done and it may not be good, all of it. But I think it had a sort of, I don't know, false. It wasn't authentic. the the show the premise right right yeah i think that's probably right oh and then he did what he did newsroom was that what

it was called with jeff daniels yeah yeah that was good yeah yeah no he's a brilliant brilliant writer are you guys friends yeah i mean i see him uh he's a like a big part of my life i i you know i see him every couple of months. We, we have dinner. Oh yeah? Yeah. It's weird. Like, and Aaron had this power.

My joke with him is that, you know, the great show about democracy and he ran it like Kim Jong-il. Yeah. You know, it's, you know, we were waiting for the story, you know, to come from him. And that's the way it needed, you know it's uh you know we were waiting for the story you know to come from him and that's the way it needed you know it needed to be but it sort of uh and we treated him like a playwright yeah we're gonna make all these words work right you know we're not gonna go to uh you know hey uh

bill uh don't we get it with to be or not to be like right you know yeah do we do we need that's the question yeah no you like you would make it work right well yeah i mean he's one of these like i don't know anything about him and i you know i i definitely tend to mythologize people in my mind and then when i meet them i'm like always surprised that they're human but he seems to be sort of capable of these you know inhuman feats you know of creation that that are sort of amazing well he does an interesting thing he's like he's like uh yeah i'm gonna paint on a big canvas yeah like with west wing it's so funny to me there's all these political shows now like all kinds of political shows you know the

veep is the comedy and scandals the kind of pulpy thing and the other one the one that the house of cards yeah and when we were doing the show it was like that arena can't work right yeah now it's like completely you broke it open for everybody let's talk like you did a lot you've done a lot of movies a lot of television and you were great and transparent that must have been now how now in terms of that set somebody's been around as long as you have that must have been a fairly unique environment incredibly unique like how did you come to that how did i come to me how did jill ask you to do it how did what was the i had uh uh it was funny because i was here and it wasn't a point of pride, but I had noted the fact that I was like the only actor of my generation

who started in New York who had never done a Law & Order. Really? So I was like, well, I'm never. You missed it. You kind of missed it, right? You weren't in those lean times during that time. You were a little before, right? No, I was up for stuff.

It just never happened. And then I got asked to do this SVU, but it meant going to New York. And I'm like, I don't want to go to New York. And they said, it's with Tambor. And he's always been one of my favorite actors. And I was like, oh, if it's with him, yeah, I'll go. And so I did that in the middle of a scene.

And he said, it's weird. I'm doing this streaming show at Amazon. I'm like, Amazon's doing stuff? Yeah. This was before it started. He said, yeah, and it got picked up. And then there was this part of this cross-dressing, and he suggested me to Jill.

Okay. But it just sounds to me, like I know Jill a bit, and some people that are involved in the show but it sounds to me that this was a very sort of modern work environment that yeah that was highly not politicized but it was at the cutting edge of of the new respect and uh ways of of engaging with people on gender levels yes and it was it was, you know, it was a freaky set. I mean, you know, there's this kind of dilation on that set because people are, you know, you're dealing, you know,

I never wore a dress before and, you know i i really want to make this work and it's you know it brings up complicated feelings did it yeah yeah it was cool like what like you know well my number one fear uh was to was that i would be condescending about. I actually had one of the most amazing experiences doing research for this. I, you know, just like sort of an idiot, like, you know, I'm going to like, you know, Sean Penn this little. I got in touch with a group that cross dresses

and signed up to go. You know, I was just going to go. Yeah. You know. Sure. And observe. Yeah, but I was, you know, I was going to go undercover, you know, cross-dressing. Oh, wow.

And it was delicate to get invited to this thing, you know, understandably. And I got myself invited. As a spy. Right. And then I realized. And also you're a public personality, so. Well, yeah, I'm vaguely familiar familiar yeah uh i don't know about that but uh then i called him up and i said look i i want to be honest with you this is a safe place for you is there any um is there i i i'm doing this thing this it was before the show had come out and i said i can

assure you this is not going to sentimentalize or condescend and i i just want to do whatever i can to get it right they talked to everybody in the group and i went i was i was terrified walking into this place. I mean, terrified. So I was now not cross-dressing. But it's sort of like there's part of your masculinity at stake because you don't know yourself in this way. Yeah. Yeah, it was...

I was shaking. Like, I've done weird research. What were you afraid of, though? I mean, could you put your finger on it? Like, walking into the place? I mean. It was an inarticulate reptilian brainstem Freudian fear. I don't know.

Uh-huh. Yeah. I don't know. Was I going to be turned on? Oh, yeah. Right. So, yeah, you were threatened. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, you were threatened. Yeah.

Yeah. So what happened? Door opens and, you know, it's somebody who really doesn't pass, kind of gruffly, you know, goes, hey, you know, come on in. Miniskirt. Yeah, sure, sure. You you know and it's like that you know and it's like i'm like you know you can see me kind of go like take a deep breath going this is this

is going to be intense it turned out to be one of the most moving things i honestly that i've ever seen they get together this is an it's it's an apartment where people meet yeah this is the night uh they get dressed yeah uh the people who want to go out uh some people really want to get dressed and go out and you know kind of pass uh they get falafel they bring it back uh and they sit together and they eat falafel and nobody's getting drunk uh nobody's trying to pick up people yeah um and the range of experience was astonishing uh you know there were a lot of people have gone heroically through 12-step stuff uh uh was astonishing. There were a lot of people who'd gone heroically through 12 step stuff. They had a secret or they'd gotten beaten up.

Their kids wouldn't talk to them. You'd hear these like heartbreaking stories. And then this like 75-year-old goes, you know, I'm hearing all these stories of woe. It's like, my life has been a party. This has been amazing. You know, I'm taken care of. This watch is gold.

And then, you know, there was an army guy there there were some people who are extraordinarily feminine and almost porny some some have like a schmata on you know with with a wig um uh but it was just interesting to sit with these people who needed a sanctuary to be themselves. Right. It was really fascinating. There was this wonderful, God, what a character, like a 17-year-old Puerto Rican girl who did all their hair loved to come on wednesdays and and and did these guys up anyway what that experience did was it gave me like i was it gave me total freedom like there's there's a million different ways uh you know to do it honestly to do right

to do it honestly but i was always afraid am i gonna you know make it make a cheap joke right well yeah but you mean on set you may or just like right like you not not during a scene you were gonna but like you were worried about your own weird defensive uh uh disposition popping up in the middle of it. Yeah. That would not be a good set to do that on. I do remember right before they said action, Jeffrey and I are fully cross-dressed. Yeah.

And they're about to say action. And I looked at him and I said, you realize this is the memoriam reel. Did he laugh yeah because he seems to be pretty deep in it when he does it very deep in it and and i guess he's not doing it anymore you got into some trouble yeah yeah yeah i i think he always felt am i doing justice to this yeah he did some insane work on that. Yes. Incredible work. It's like some real risky shit. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a crazy set. Yeah. But you were, it must've been a real baptism in, you know, the edge of cultural progress there. You know, that like, you know, what's going on in terms of identification, identity, how to address people, how to be respectful, be respectful, especially when you're coming to it at your age or my age where things are changing that dramatically in those communities. The fear of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing must be extraordinary. find that most trans people are not freaked out right about pronouns you know because that's you know that's not the issue of course it's an understandable stumble that you know that

people are going to make right we're all trying to be comfortable so if you know we're not going to you know call you a hater because you misspoke. Right. I think that these things on those levels where that dialogue is happening around pronouns, that sort of has to happen to maintain the territory that they've gotten. You know what I mean? There needs to be a respect there. I mean, maybe it'll make people more nervous about what to call people,

but there needs to be posts up saying like we're real this is this is happening yeah and words are you know words are important right how did you uh let's let's talk about the the movie that's out now and up for uh academy awards how did he uh how did he find you how did that happen i heard that he they were interested in me for a movie and I was the biggest Key and Peele fan in the world. I think he is a profound performer. Jordan? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true.

Like the depth of the stuff he was doing and the sketches. And if there is a tragedy about Get Out, it is that he doesn't want to act anymore. Yeah. But I had been asking for years, just give me like honestly anything in a background sketch. You know, in one of his sketches.

You know, I just want to be in one and my son loves it. Yeah. So I would have done anything he was going to do. When I first heard about it, I assumed he was going to be acting in it. Then I talked to him, and I remember he said, he said, do you like horror movies? And I'm like, hmm. Yeah.

Do I? You know, I don't run out to see. Right. I get them, but I don't go see them. Right. Yeah. And he's like, I really love them, and the reason I love them is they're about stuff you can't talk about.

They're about death and sex, and nobody's done race. death and sex and nobody's done race uh uh and weirdly um you know like i was trying to think of just movies i've seen you know with a sympathetic black lead in a horror movie it's like night of the living dead right 1968 yeah um didn't turn out well for that guy. No. He did what he could. He did what he could. So then he sent me the script, and I remember coming out and saying to my fiance, I've never read anything like this, and I don't know if it's going to work,

but it'll be amazing. Yeah, so on paper, it looked pretty great. Yeah, it was like, whoa. It was this combination of what I call a forehead knocker of like, oh, yeah. Ten years ago, haven't we done a horror movie that is really about race? Yeah. You know, and it was a combination of that.

And it was not something I had ever seen before. And you're reading it and you're going, is this funny? Like, I didn't know where I was. Uh-huh. That's good. Yeah, I didn't know where I was, genre-wise. You know, do you know it's going to work? No. Like, do you finish scenes going yeah no

like it's like i don't know like you know is this yeah because also there's this menacing wrong to it like i imagine yeah you finish scenes and you're like that's kind of horrible yeah like are you tipping it you know are you setting it up without tipping it i mean that's you know and jordan was he said you know this it's just like comedy horror he's he's like you got to set it up without anticipating it let the tension you know expand and then pull a trigger and either it's a laugh or you know or it's a scream right um he was very careful not to he didn't want any jokes in there there are no jokes all the laughs like are i remember at one point at the end i'd get killed with uh with a deer head yeah uh and it was just like one take where they rammed this deer head into me. And I have a white beard and blood comes out of my mouth.

Yeah. So they want to get it one take. And my one disagreement with him was I said, can I just like get hit and go, oh, dear. And he said, no, it's a joke. Because, you know, because it's, because his theory is like, no. Right. No. Oh, really?

No. Oh, it was a pun. Yeah, it was a little pun. Yeah, yeah. You can't have no room for puns anywhere. But it was a 22 day shoot. Nobody thought it was going to work. There is a bit of a comedic relief with that, the guy's friend, that comic from Chicago.

What's that? Lil Rel. Yeah. Yeah. That guy, it wasn't joke, but it was sort of like that was reality calling. And that was very funny. Yes. Yes.

Great ending. Great ending. You know, he changed it, right? No, I don't know anything about it the original ending was you see him killing everybody in the driveway and the you hear a cop car and you see the red lights on his face cut he's in prison laurel the tsa guy is visiting him and saying, we got to get you out. We know the truth. You're not going to rot in a prison. And Chris, Daniel Klee's character says, no, it's okay. We stopped him.

That was the end. The brilliant thing that Jordan did was, which could be perceived as kind of a lecture about mass incarceration or injustice or something sure what he did with the ending the way he reshot it was you see the lights in the guy's face there's a huge laugh when the door opens and you realize it's not a cop it's a tsa car there's a huge laugh of relief and it's a much more powerful way because if you are laughing at that you have internalized the truth that the cops can be a threat to an innocent black man oh when you see those lights yeah you know you're the whole history of that you. But it's so much better than just sort of telling you this, you know, an injustice occurred.

What he did is the most unbelievable thing I've ever experienced. First time out of the gate, 22 days. Like, it was quick. Yeah. And he's a solid guy. He's the sweetest. Yeah. You know, and there's just glee in him yeah uh and he is kind to everybody which are really sweet did i hear you say fiance yeah so you're getting married again yeah when's that happening um i think it's gonna happen during my it seems like when your three oldest siblings

are celebrating 50 years and the whole family's gonna be together that might be a good time oh yeah yeah amy landecker from transparent from transparent you met her on transparent yeah in a dress you were wearing a dress when you met i was wearing a dress We did not connect at that time. Has she been married? Yes. Kids? Yes. So you've both had lives?

Yes. We've both come out of some emotional whitewater into a glade, a cool pool of peace. Oh, good. Well, I hope that works out for you. I'm serious. Yeah. Thank you. It was great talking to you, man. Thanks for I hope that works out for you. I'm serious. Yeah. Thank you. It was great talking to you, man. You too.

My pleasure. Nice guy. Right. Got a little cut to him. Got a little edge. Got a little intensity. Grounded. I like him.

I like that Bradley Whitford fella. As I said, you can see the new season of The Handmaid's Tale on Hulu. He's in that. That premieres this week. You can see him in the movies Get Out and The Post. You can watch reruns of The West Wing for probably a year if you really wanted to. I'll talk to you again from probably Dublin. I'm thinking maybe Amsterdam.

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