WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 915 - Josh Brolin

Episode Date: May 13, 2018

Josh Brolin knows that time and maturity saved his life. Going back to his rebellious youth, Josh can point to many times where he could have been done in, even after he was already a successful actor. Josh and Marc talk about addictive behavior, self-destruction, and why sobriety finally stuck. They also talk about Sam Shepard, Nick Nolte, Sean Penn, the Coen Brothers, Denzel Washington, and the surprising fulfillment of making superhero movies, particularly Avengers: Infinity War and Deadpool 2. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuck sticks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF.

Thank you. Thank you for joining me. How are you, folks? What's happening? Today on the show, back home, back in Los Angeles, I have Josh Brolin. Josh Brolin is on today's show, and I was excited to talk to him. He's not easy to get on a show, and I got a kick out of him and learned some stuff. He was funny. I think we went pretty deep. I think it was good.

But he's much funnier than I thought he would be, and he's a pretty disarming dude, that Josh Brolin, for a movie star guy. But anyways, yeah, so I got Josh Brolin coming up later. As you can tell, I'm not at home. I am still in the American South. I say that in a broad way, in a expansive way, because I think we all have the way we think of the American South. But I've been in Birmingham for a few days now,

and I got to say, it's not bad, man. It's not bad. There's good food down here. The people are very nice. My experience has been limited because I'm working and I'm spending, you know, I wake up, I go to work, I come back, I'm at the hotel. But I've had some food. I've been out there.

I'm working with a crew with some people from the area and good people. And I've told you over the years that my sense of the South or my judgment of the South or my stereotype that I've locked into in my head is not quite right. There are good people here. It is not just some festering racist conglomeration of ex-Confederate states that secretly want that back. I'm not saying everyone here is a mensch, and there's some bad eggs around, I'm sure. But in my direct experience in the last few days, which is very limited, I've had a good experience. And the city feels okay. If we're going to go on a vibe thing it seems like it's purged itself a bit but it does seem that there

is some peace and good-hearted folks in this town that's what i i have experienced and i did uh i did take the ride um down to uh montgomery uh to go to the Peace and Justice Memorial, the National Memorial for Peace and Justice, and to also go to the Legacy Museum. And it blew my mind, and it crushed my heart, and it elevated my soul just by being open to it and admitting a profound level of ignorance. So I'm down here and I know I don't remember where I read about the museum. I don't know how the images of it were in my head. I don't quite remember where I first saw it. It hasn't

been open that long. It's only been open a bit the museum and the national memorial for peace and justice some people are referring to it as the lynching monument i i i don't know that's the way to refer to it i i i think that the national memorial for peace and justice is is a nice way to do it and then if someone goes i don't i don't i don't know if i've i ever know where that is and then you say it's a montgomery al And then if someone goes, I don't know if I ever know where that is. And then you say, it's in Montgomery, Alabama. And they're like, I haven't heard of that, the lynching monument.

Oh, right, right. I think I, yeah, I saw pictures of that somewhere. So I would wait. Don't just open with that because that is what it is memorializing in the same way that the holocaust memorial memorializes the attempted genocide of the jewish people this memorializes um the legacy of enslaved black people people terrorized by lynching, African-Americans humiliated by racial segregation and Jim Crow, and people of color burdened with contemporary presumptions of guilt and police violence. Now, obviously, I wasn't riffing that. I read that. I read that from the National Memorial

for Peace and Justice website because I think you need to hear that. I think I need to hear that i think i need to hear that so i didn't know what to expect i drove down there it's about an hour and a half i didn't know what to anticipate but i'd seen images of the national memorial for peace and justice the lynching monument and the images kind of blew me away just these large steel rectangles of blew me away just these large steel rectangles seemingly hanging from a a large roof but i didn't get a sense of what they were or you know obviously the the the reference to lynching is there but i didn't know the weight i didn't know the size and you go and uh it's got to be as big as a few city blocks. It's a large space, and you just see this monument. You just see these hundreds of symmetrical steel rectangles suspended from cylindrical pipes,

but giving the illusion of hanging because that's what they represent. You know that's what it represents. So just seeing the sheer numbers of steel rectangles, large steel rectangles, they seem to be maybe 10 feet tall and maybe two feet wide, hundreds of them.

And you know what it's about. You know what it's about from a distance and just the way it looks from a distance. You're like, God, holy shit. It's fucking devastating. Just the knowledge of what it represents from a distance. And that's powerful public art.

You're not in it. You're not at it. It's 50, 60 yards away, and you're like, I don't even know if I can handle it, but you got to handle it. You see, I think I know things. I don't know a lot of things.

I don't know white history that well. I know black history certainly not that well. I'm ignorant. You know that it was horrible. You know that it happened. But do you know the scope? Do you know the states? Do you know the numbers?

Do you know the reason? I don't know that I fully did. I don't know that I fully realized. It's certainly possible for me to learn, understand, wrap my brain around it as best I can and respect the struggle. You go to the monument, you walk through it, and you realize the numbers and you realize the expanse of time. of time. Apparently it documents more than 4,400 lynchings of black people in the United States between 1877 and 1950, and they identified 800 more than had been previously recognized. And, you know, you see these pictures, we grew up seeing some of the pictures and understanding, but to really look at the numbers and to really feel the weight of this which this monument does

i mean it's hard not to shudder and cry and just feel your heart crushed at the capacity for man's inhumanity to man and that so many of these were public lynchings where people were invited you know thousands of people thousands of people you see those horrible pictures of you know just a hanging body surrounded by white people men women children some of them laughing and that's the biggest trip you know about that's the weight of being here is that you walk around here and you wonder like whose grandparents were in those pictures you was a you and then you walk around and you see African American people and it's like, whose grandparents,

whose names are on those columns? And this is America and this is modern history. And I've been to Holocaust memorials in Israel and D.C. as a Jew, that's heavy. But nothing has affected me like this thing, like this monument, the National Memorial for Peace and Justice. Because I needed to be kicked in my soul's head

to understand and really take it in what black people have dealt with in this country and i don't consider myself racist in any way i you know i don't consider myself judgmental in that way but i i have to admit i was ignorant and that I can't look at culture the same way. I can't look at black people in the same way with the assumptions that I had any sense of other than just sort of like, yeah, I know it was hard and I know, yeah, slavery, but like, man,

this puts it all into perspective. And you go to this memorial, and then you want to go to the museum. They're connected. You can get a combination ticket. You got to drive downtown to go to the museum. The museum is the legacy museum from enslavement to mass incarceration.

So you go see the monument and that rips you wide open. And then you go fill yourself up with the history and the information. So you are forever aware. You are forever woke to, to the struggle of black people in this country. And this is history that everybody should know. Everybody should be deeply aware because most of us are ignorant

because it is not our experience. And to educate yourself and humble yourself and find a respect in your heart and mind it should be a civic responsibility and i think like you you know you you see this stuff and you just realize how that there's something that just clicks in human people's brains and there's something that just clicks in human animals brains that completely enables them to slaughter fellow humans to torture fellow humans to kill with a smile fellow humans that are their neighbors in modern times in this country in other countries there's something that just clicks and if they're empowered the shame goes

away the conscience goes away and it just it it's on and we are not free of that possibility So, obviously, I was blown away. And it's worth a special trip. Montgomery's a little haunted. I think it might be some time before it lifts. And certainly this museum keeps it haunted in just the right way. That, you know, these are voices. They're not ghosts. This is history.

It's not mythology. And it should be known and felt. Fucking deep stuff, man. I'm never going to be the same. But it's worth the trip. It's important. It's important. It's powerful public art and a powerfully educational uh experience to go to the museum so that's that was my experience and uh and you know you can look this stuff up online

and you can you can come check it out it definitely blew my mind and I am a different person today because of it. So I'm sorry if I got heavy. Sometimes a guy get heavy. It's a heavy time. It's a scary time. And it's hard not to crumble. Don't crumble to the fear, you know, stay in it, ride it out, speak your mind so we don't get crushed i think that's important all right so look josh brolin was here uh was i talked to josh brolin he wasn't here in my hotel room in birmingham he was back at the new garage uh in los angeles and he is currently in the biggest movie in the world avengers infinity war and starting this Friday, May 18th, you can see him in Deadpool 2.

Both of these are in theaters literally everywhere. And we talked a little bit about this stuff, about the superheroes movies, or as William Freakin said very succinctly in my interview with him, the Spandex movies. But it was nice talking to Josh. And this is me and Josh Brolin back in the garage. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those.

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app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.

The one thing I learned about the Hells Angels is that you can romanticize them to a degree. And this is one thing I'm afraid to talk about. Yeah. You know, but they're heavy, man. I mean, they weren't fucking around. No, they weren't fucking around. And I don't want to mention any names and people that I'm friendly with. No, no, no.

Is that, yeah, I rode a lot. I rode a lot. I rode for 20, 25 years, Harleys and the whole thing. And, you know, I grew up on a motorcycle. My dad put me on a motorcycle before a bicycle at three and a half. Really? I had an Indian 20. Really?

When I was three and a half. I asked him to take off the training wheels at four. And it was actually a motorcycle with like flames on the fucking. Yeah, with an engine. But all these, especially actors. Yeah. You know, a bunch of different professions. Right.

That idea in the late 80s of hanging out with hell's angels and thinking that you were in right when in truth you were never in no ever no so any idea that you were accepted was full of shit because of the fucking hell's angels yeah don't make assumptions don't make assumptions don't get too comfortable exactly exactly i talked to a rock photographer neil preston who had the same experience but with like uh with with a band like you know like don't assume you're pals you know what i mean you're on the outside yeah well that's it yeah it's a it's it's a shitty feeling to be that guy that has that realization oh man have you had that before were you like i'm not there yeah i was in i was in i grew up in templeton california where's that no about four hours

north of here yeah and uh and i got on the bus i had come from la yeah my dad when i was growing up my parents didn't have any money they didn't really come from money so your real dad my real dad yeah not my fake dad my real dad not the not the other people that pretended to be my dad but my real dad but i didn't know if you had a stepdad no i don't no no i never had a stepdad oh yeah the stepmoms uh-huh a few oh right right but no stepdad yeah and then and so so when my dad got marcus welby he started making money and then we moved up to passerobles because my mother was a kind of a country lady from Texas. Yeah.

And she wanted to be out of L.A. And I got on the bus, and I was six. And I hate admitting this, but I love admitting this because I love what it does to me because it's so kind of shaming in a good way. To yourself? Yeah. Yeah. It's growth, man. It keeps you humble?

It's fucking growth. Yeah. So I got on the bus, and,'s all these, you go down a driveway, and it's about a mile driveway long, and you get to the bottom, and you hang out, and you get picked up by the yellow bus to take you to school, to the public school. And somebody, because I was new, somebody said, hey, they started ribbing me or whatever, and I said,

hey, I said, what do you do? I wouldn't remember what the situation was, but I said, hey, you know, they started questioning or ribbing me or whatever. And I said, hey, I said, they said, what do you do? Or what? I don't remember what the situation was. But I said, I'm James Brolin's son. Hey, man. I was like back off or something. I don't remember what I said, but it was like my father's an actor. Yeah.

And they kicked the shit out of me. And rightfully so. That was the last time you identified that way, huh? Can you imagine if i set like on this yeah like if you if you bother me at any time during this thing and if i go hey yeah my dad's james brolin by the way i'd rather you say my dad was on marcus wellby okay good because you have a better reference for that no it's just like like i don't like maybe that's what it was i said my dad it's all marcus well no because it was weird I said my dad. It's Marcus Welby. Marcus Welby. No, because it was weird.

He was one of those guys that had to transcend that. It felt like he disappeared for decades. Yeah. And then was sort of like, oh, it took- Because of that. Well, it's okay. He's in movies now, and no one remembers Marcus Welby. No, but they do, because you do.

So there are those, there's this whole demographic out there. Well, it was a little before my time, but yeah, I remember it being on TV. How old are you? 54. No, I'm 50. Right? You're 50?

So sad. We're making it. We're okay. We're alive. We have good references. How's your health? Yeah. My health's really good right now.

But where, so is Paso Robles on the, is that, that's not a, that's not a beach. No. So I can, it's like, what is it? Paso Robles is a central coast. Yeah. central coast. I grew up on a 230 acre ranch with, you know, a wildlife way station. My mom ran a wildlife way station. What is that?

And we had, she took animals. She's already been, always was an animal person. Yeah. So she would take wild animals from people who had illegally taken them out of the wild. And she would nurse them back to health and either re-release them or put them in a habitable zoo. And so we had bears, chimpanzees, wolves, mountain lions, one massive lion, a lot of things. A lot of things would come and go.

So she was that kind of save-the-animals person. Yeah, and 65 horses. 65 horses? Yeah. So you rode horses. Yeah. And then, and 65 horses. 65 horses. Yeah. So you rode horses? Yeah. And was it just you? Me and my brother.

Your brother? Yeah. Younger, older? Younger. Four. Yeah. Yeah. Four years.

Are you, are you guys close? We are really close. Yeah. Yeah. We were never close until now. Till recently? Yeah. That must be exciting.

Really exciting actually. Yeah. In all honesty, really exciting. Well, wait, how long, how old? So he's four years younger. Yeah. That must be exciting. Really exciting, actually. Yeah. In all honesty, really exciting. Well, how long, so he's four years younger. Yeah. I mean, I have a little brother and, you know, it goes in and out. Like, people always assume you're close with your brother, but then you realize, like, I don't know.

And then one day you are. Yeah. Are you close? Yeah. Yeah. It's weird with him and I because there's no, like, I can see me and him. Like, we're very similar. Yeah.

And sometimes that's not great. Yeah. No, that creates friction well yeah you know but i don't know he's you know he's come on into some rough times and you feel like you gotta be there for him and then you realize like of course they don't you know we were no yeah my brother and i are the opposite oh yeah yeah totally different just very like it was a decision my mom was so hard tough remember my dad saying, you guys had five minutes to learn how to read. That was it.

And if you didn't get it, you were fucked. She was the tough one? She was very tough. My dad was not tough at all. My dad had marks while we were going on. Yeah. But he, but no, no, no. She was, yeah.

And he did. He said that. He said five minutes he had to learn how to read. And, you know, it was like, what is this word? You know, it's, I don't know. He hasn't taught me to learn and read. And it was like, what is this word? I don't know. He hasn't taught me letters yet. It's dog.

What is this word? So you had to get it. My brother was a little more rebellious, I think, in the fact that he didn't want to work so hard at getting it. So I was always the more active one, for lack of a better word he and he was not so um there was a lot of friction as kids and then we grew up and then my brother ended up i mean i think everybody knows this he ended up like having a really tough time yeah he was living in his car for a couple years two years in the car yeah and uh by choice i don't know by by choice. Yeah. I mean, that's a whole psychological thing. Sure.

You know, was it by choice? Is it? Did he fight help? He did. Yeah. He fought help. That's well put. He fought help.

Yeah. And then there was the tough love thing about, you know, maybe he's victimizing himself and therefore if we just like, you know, don't react or don't enable and that kind of stuff oh yeah and then there came a time where it was like kind of a life or death situation oh yeah so then so then i changed my whole perception on it and then now we're really close and you went and got him i don't know if i got him but i helped him get himself yeah but you went you you showed up for him i did enough with the detachment yeah it's not working yeah man it's like i hate treating you as if you're somebody that i met in

iceland like in 87 right like let's be fucking brothers yeah like let's call a spade a spade and let's be brothers and he took it yeah he's doing very well right now i'm very proud of him that's great yeah he's a good dude. So when did you start, like it seems like you've put yourself through some shit, you know, at different times in your life. You do too, by the way. Yeah, I know. You have it written all over you. Am I crying?

Am I crying already? No, you're not crying. You've got a nice face. Thanks, buddy. I didn't expect such a nice face. Really? No. So you grew up primarily with animals and a mom taking care of animals,

busting your balls, making you read fast. Or read, period. Yeah. But you weren't homeschooled. You went to school. I did go to school. But when did you get more urbanized? Did you move?

I did. No, I moved to Santa Barbara when I was 11. Oh, okay. So you're out of the mountains with your mom still not the mountains but yeah i was with my i was with the ranch yeah the ranch yeah and then i was with my mother yeah i was with my dad too but my dad was working like i saw marcus well yeah i don't think he was still working maybe he was still working on marcus well and that no he was you know what he was doing around that time he He was doing, let's talk about my dad.

No, he was doing Amityville Horror. Oh, that's right. The movie. Yeah, the movie. He played the husband, the father at the house. The crazy fucker. Yeah.

Yeah, the possessed guy. Yeah, right. Yeah, and then Ryan Reynolds did it again later. He's a funny guy. He's a really funny guy. Smart guy. Yeah, he's like

one of those guys that's hard to do, you know, he's good at the physical comedy.'s really he's he's good at comedy period yeah it's kind of amazing is he canadian he is yeah those canadians there's something about the broad comedy they're very good at it i don't i don't see it i don't see it like not on the street no no they all go to a place and they learn it they do do? Yeah, because on the street, they're not really funny people. I just spent a lot of time up there. I really liked them a lot. It's very nice.

It's almost like when you're in a Canadian city, it's like an American city, but without the edge. You know, you're sort of like, what's this missing? Fear. No, but seriously, fear. That's it. There's no anxiety.

There's an edge that I missed when I was up there, even though I think it's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been yeah and we were went my wife and i went up to whistler and it was amazing and oh it was so beautiful in vancouver in vancouver shooting yep uh-huh and uh but you know once i got back to venice it was like an orgasm yeah the fear is bad yeah it was like blue balls for four months anxiety yeah yeah i Yeah. For balls of anxiety. I need to wash my back. I miss not. That's what it is. I need to be around my misfit, homeless brothers.

Sure. So, okay, so you moved to Santa Barbara. When does he, I have to assume, given you are who you are, that there was some at least active rebellion, some troublemaking. No, there was, yeah, but i don't think it was necessarily me i don't think it was uh i think it was a it was the time it was the culture it was the when was this what time we talking about probably 80 no 79 oh yeah so it was kind of the beginning of punk rock oh yeah all that was company yeah like sid vicious and all that you know a darby crash and the germs and all that started happening. Did you go see him?

I did. When you were a kid? I did. Did you drive into the city? I actually snuck out my window, got into a van. I don't even remember whose van. And a bunch of us would go down to Godzilla's in Los Angeles, make it back by five in the morning, sleep an hour, wake up, and then go to school.

Holy shit. So you saw the original punk guys. You saw the germs. I did. I saw the germs. I saw Black Flag. I saw Circle Jerks. I saw Dead Kennedys.

I saw TSOL. Wow. Yeah. So that group that I grew up with was kind of like a surf culture. It was kind of like Bra Boys in Australia. It was a very similar thing. Were you a gang? No, we weren't a gang. Yeah. It was a very similar thing. And then- Were you a gang?

No, we weren't a gang. Yeah. What's a gang? I don't know. I don't know what a gang is. A gang murders people, don't they? Did you murder people? No.

You'd remember. No. We murdered egos. Yeah. Nice. We murdered egos. And ourselves. And ourselves.

Slowly. Exactly. No, we weren't a gang at all. Yeah. slowly exactly no we weren't a gang at all yeah but we were we were but those guys there was something that i've never seen before or since that was uh that was that destructive it was very destructive and you guys were in high school we were in no we were in junior high really high school and you think it was something to do with the time not just to i do i remember in crane school in santa barbara when everybody started shaving their heads.

Yeah. We were the first guys to shave our heads or to color our hair. Right. And then it just kind of, and I remember Sheldon Edwards, the head of the school- Yeah. Taking me aside and saying, you know, this is it for you. This is the crossroads. You know, you're Robert Johnson right now.

Yeah. Is that reference? No. Oh, okay. I just did. Because I want to make him smarter than he was. And he said, you know, you have a choice. You're a talented guy.

And you're getting straight D minuses in school. Right. And you have nothing positive to look forward to if you continue along these lines. Right. You're diminishing your future possibilities. Yeah. You're closing them off. Now, maybe coming from somebody else

that I trusted a little more, maybe it would have had an effect. It had none. It just... Zero. It made me dive into the deep end. I think all of us. It made the fuck you bigger.

It did. Yeah. It did. It's funny how when you're at that age, you're like, oh, I'll show you by destroying me. Yeah. That's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. But it was a fun group.

It was a really intelligent group. It was a group that I would never take away that time. Did you play music? Yeah. There was a band. We started a band called CVS. Good one. Which is so dumb, Cito Vice Squad. Oh, okay.

Because we were the Cito Rats. And then that band, once they replaced me, evolved into RKL, which was Rich Kids on LSD, which became a big punk band. Oh, they did? Yeah. The guys that stayed in, stayed in it? Yeah, Jason Sears, who was my best friend, was the lead singer of RKL. Yeah.

And yeah, they did very well. Oh, that's good. But all those guys are gone. They're dead. All of them. Really? Yeah. Isn't that fucking amazing?

Amazing. What killed them? Variety of things? Variety. Yeah? But mostly heroin. Well, that came in when? I think, was it late? was it that fucking black tar shit

we all it was it we did we did a lot of lsd yeah for sheets of lsd right yeah rich kids on lsd right and not nobody was particularly rich it just sounded good and and but my dad did do Marcus Welby. Yeah. He was a Marcus Welby. Yeah. But then, yeah, then the heroin kind of creeped in. I guess it was the early. Must have been that first wave. Mid 80s. It all came in at once from Mexico, that tar shit.

Yeah. That you could smoke. Exactly. Yeah. And then shoot. Yeah. So was that your bag? No, it was never my bag. did it but i did everything but i i could

never i always had my like my big toe yeah kind of dipped somewhere else and i don't know why i literally don't know you mean like that you well i mean for me when i tried heroin i was like all right i snorted some white heroin because i i'd been sober for about a year and a half i was like all right i snorted some white heroin because i i'd been sober for about a year and a half i was living in new york city that late 80s yeah i was there too in alphabet city yeah and i'd been sober about a year and i moved into that place sober and i just watched these junkies go into this doorway yeah you know next door like it was like the whole street where were you second between a and b okay yeah so they just this parade of junkies and when when I got there, because I was sober, I'm like, this is sad. Yeah.

Look at these fucking guys. I would go down and cop between 11th and 12th between A and B. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But here's how you know you're sick, is that inside about a year, it went from like, this is sad, these guys, to what's going on in their eyes? That's true.

That's true. It must be worth something for them to let their skin turn that color it's totally gray fucking white gray i always wanted to know if i looked white gray well how much were you in it before but i loved i loved the idea of it yeah right more than i like the actuality of it i never i never was a good drug i was a good drunk, but I wasn't a good drug addict. Yeah. There was something about it that it just never sat well with me. It's not attractive.

You're not doing much. And that's what I don't like. I'm too fucking productive intrinsically to do that. It just didn't take. That was what I was going to say, though. I did it a few times. My face got itchy. I vomited.

And then I just fought to keep my head up there you go and it was like this is it yeah i didn't get it yeah i mean i never got maybe maybe i didn't do it right thank god but i never got that ecstasy of like a thousand orgasms no no no that whole train spotting thing it's like yeah it's like the greatest orgasm times a thousand you're not even close did you get that no did you were you shooting it no no but you snorted it a few times no i smoked it oh you smoked it oh yeah see that's it i said when i was in new york i snorted it when i was in in the west coast i smoked it because of the black tar you could smoke and this stuff in new york was that china white shit it was very strong at that

time yeah it's not like you could it's just what was available that's what just what you did you couldn't snort black tar no you could not you could try but you couldn't i've never spoken about this really i talked about it once but it's it's one of those things that it's like stigma are you are you sober yeah yeah me too really well i noticed that you do you recognize that book right away i recognize the cover i can't even see the writing sure yeah it's the blue old yeah well I know I got a whole stack of fucking sober books over there I didn't want to put all of them they're down there because I got Josh is coming put the sober books high let's get into it no I mean I had them down there they were up there and I don't want to look like a complete fucking like over the years I've

accumulated many different books because you know you find these problems run deeper they do run deeper but what i love is you you have this kind of potpourri of sober books and then people who you appreciated who were obviously not sober sure sam right there you got lenny you got hunter thompson you got i mean somebody who blew his face off somebody who yeah who od'd somebody who you know died recently who i love and who was a good friend you know which one's that shepherd oh sam yeah he was so good huh so great man did you work with him i never worked with him i did true west on broadway yeah but i didn't work directly with him but i was friendly with him who'd you play with who played your brother um elias kateus uh-huh did you have

a good experience with that? No. No. No, I loved it. I knew we were doomed from the beginning. And Elias and I didn't get along, which I would love to see him now because it's been 20 years or 15 years. Uh-huh.

But no, it was a debacle for sure. But I'm glad I did it. Sam didn't strike me like i don't put him i don't think of him as a fuck-up i mean i think of him as a uh like a cowboy and a guy who did something new and took chances i think true west is a perfect depiction or definition of him as a person because you have the two brothers which obviously are a split of himself which is the is the productive kind of pandering screenwriter right and then the guy who's saying fuck you to it all yeah and that was him yeah what is it lee and austin right yeah lee and austin so so we oh you did that thing we

did that thing so okay so we were both lucky we didn't like heroin yeah but you like booze i like cocaine and booze yeah i didn't like cocaine really no it did yeah it just got me in trouble it was like the minute i did cocaine i heard a siren immediately whether it existed or not you know what i mean when you're alone and unfortunately for me like paranoia where you know yeah nine times or 99 times out of 100, it's not true. It's in your head. That's the worst. 99 out of 100 times for me, it was real.

It was real. There's the siren. I was like, fuck, what am I being arrested for now? Yeah, that'll do it. Yeah, the booze was my thing. Yeah. How long have you been sober? Almost five years.

That's great. Yeah? But I had five years, and then I had three and a half. That's what happens. And then five, and's great yeah but i had five years and then i had three and a half that's what happens in five and then yeah are you able to identify why you decide that moment that the to go back out yeah oh yeah man it was an absolutely fully conscious decision you're like i'm ready yeah seriously it wasn't like yeah yeah it was it wasn't like you know you hear these guys in the rooms they're like i don't even know like, you know, you hear these guys in the rooms, they're like, I don't even know what happened.

Like before I knew it, I was in the bar, I was drinking. I get all the fucking, I don't know what happened. And you're like, how is that? How's that possible? I knew I made an absolute conscious decision to fuck it up even more because I appreciated the destructivity of it all. Yeah. Yeah.

More than I liked sobriety at that point. Right. Now it's very different. Yeah. It's very different. What do you think changed? I don't know. And there was no major like the moment of clarity or anything.

I saw my grandma. She was kind of, she was on her apparent deathbed. She didn't die until later. Yeah. And I went in there after halloween and i had been kind of helming the whole taking care of grandma thing and the family was around and all that and my brother and i were gonna go see her and this was like the 10th day or something yeah and and and then i went out and to have a nice uh hallow wife. Yeah. And then that turned into all kinds of shit.

When you end up at Del Taco, you know something's wrong. You know what I mean? You know, it's time to get sober. If it's late at night, yeah. Del Taco, not even paying attention to what's around you. No. No. No, you see the sign kind of through a brownout or a blackout,

and you're like what does that say no no taco and you know you're doomed but yes but you can't identify what how your brain is different about sobriety now because i know that one thing i know is it doesn't age well dude you know that there does come a point where people are just gonna like oh god yeah oh yeah this guy's here oh you mean when you're sober well no when when you're when you know that like if i go out like i'm 54 there's no way it's gonna go well and there's no way you mean when you're not yeah like you just you get too old you really should get to that should factor in that like maybe i'm too i think that was a fact i think that was absolutely a factor it was like 45 years old i've gotten away with murder yeah it was never i was never

the guy that was like you know they were like if you continue you're gonna die yeah i was like i'm gonna be the last motherfucker to know that i'm dead. So why should that matter? Again, fuck you. I'll show you. Yeah, yeah. I'll be dead. I won't know. Like, well, you're in family and all that. Bad argument.

But what I was convinced of, this is going to sound really morbid. But what I was convinced that I was going to hit a little kid crossing the street in a blackout and drag him for a mile and not know it. Not know that I did it, wake up in jail like I have a few times, too many times, and go, what happened? And then them tell me that. I was convinced. So it was that on top of seeing my grandmother smile

at 99 years old on her deathbed. Right. And go, that woman's never, she's never done that. She was never apt to escape and all that. she kind of took care of things as they came she was a badass on every level they always kept a smile on her face always very sweet and i and i thought who the fuck am i right to to ruin this gift i've been given life yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That simple. That sounds like a fairly powerful white light experience. Yeah, but it wasn't condensed. Oh, you're putting it together in retrospect.

Yeah, exactly. For you. Yeah, thank you. For your radio show. And for yourself. And for yourself. For your new house. Thank you very much.

That's my christening of your new house. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I'm glad that you had that moment. Yeah, me too. So when did the acting start? You've gotten very good at it. Thanks, man.

You're great at it. Well, you know what? I know we're digressing a lot. You do whatever you want. It's your show. I was listening to several, and I don't usually do this. I don't usually do research because I don't want to. Yeah, right.

Because then it puts something in my head. Sure. You produce your own show. Yeah, basically. Basically. I got produce your own show. Yeah, basically. Basically. I got this. Just overwhelm. Yeah, I got this.

Overwhelm until I win. And I listened to a couple of your shows and I was listening. It had nothing to do with you because I liked you, but I was listening to some of your people. Uh-huh. And then I turned it off

and then I listened to somebody else and then I listened to a while and I turned it off. The person that I just listened to the whole thing and I love him so much, he defines manliness to me, is Lawrence O'Donnell Jr. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I literally just finished it outside.

Yeah. I was waiting. He's a self-producer. He is a self-producer. You were very kind with him because there's a reaction. There was two reactions with two different people that that were the same reactions but they were coming from two different places right once was lawrence o'donnell jr one was lawrence o'donnell jr and it was a reaction of respect for sure yeah and then maybe other stuff right and then there

was the same reaction with nulty yeah but it came from a very different place sure yeah yeah because it was like yeah it was bearing it was bearing it was bearing down and not that the stories aren't great because they're great i told somebody his brain is like a bingo cage of stories it's rolling and you don't know what which one he's gonna pick and where it's gonna start i just went out to dinner with him because i've known him for years he was very helpful to me in my mid-20s oh yeah yeah very so when he was sober and i was kind of fucking around oh yeah and he kind of took he laid it down he didn't lay it down but he took me under his wing and you know i mean laid it down like he showed me his blood and shit yeah

right come over here see see it swimming you know and you're like, yeah, man. See it swimming. I have to go drink now. But he was like, but it was great because it reminded me because I went out. I'd never been to Nobu. I don't really, I don't frequent places that I guess I should. So he's like, I said, well, let's go have dinner. And I read his book. And there was something about fame. The first new book.

Yeah. Yeah. The two or three first pages. I knew that he had written it. And that was the first thing that I asked him is how many ghost writers did you have? Because I could tell what he had written and not written. Yeah. And I thought he was the better writer.

Yeah. Whoever he had. But he wrote this thing about fame and I loved it. And I asked him about it because it's just a question that's in my head right now. And then when he responded, it was something like this. It was like,

well, and then I was like, all right, we're going to need to start over. Like, drink? sake? you know no but he finally cleared up

I don't know maybe it was a massive loogie that was stuck or something like that but and then we had a great conversation but I do I love him

I love him very much he's a really good human being man I thought that yeah the part the part of that book that blew me away because he come up in that, he was out here in that time and he wanted to be an actor, but he had no access. He didn't know how to even get there, right?

So he's doing these jobs. And then he just, he kind of drops this idea that like he realized that, you know, everything that defined him was bullshit, that he was a fraud, that his personality was a fraud. find him was bullshit that he was a fraud that his personality was a fraud and that his you know and he went into a room and and just re put himself back together he got egoless yeah and then started from scratch somehow yeah and and i believe him yeah i know i believe him too but the thing that got me the most which i understood i'd never heard it put so clearly it was very and it wasn't for anybody else but just him telling his story which only he can do right um and and that was when he was playing football

and he was this kind of great football player a punter or whatever and and very valued on the team and then he'd be he'd be playing football and he'd start crying on the field right and they would all come up to him like eventually and put their hand on his shoulder and say, Nick, you don't have to do this. You don't have to play. And he was crying and he goes, you don't understand. He was like, it's not, I don't dislike it. It was the passion.

It was the camaraderie. It was the planning things out and then having to improvise on that plan when the plan wasn't working yeah it was the whole collective experience yeah and i when when i was like that's why i became an actor right because why would i become an actor watching my dad like kind of if you look at it like a stock trade or a or a casino win lose win lose yeah yeah and the house always wins you always in either through your ego or financially

you always lose in the end yeah so why would i do that yeah you know until that thing that i accidentally took a class an improvisational class and i got up on stage and they said create this character we're going to ask you questions and then you answer them as that character and that was the switch it was like oh this is a whole community of people that just totally like immerse themselves in their imagination yeah and like life isn't enough right i get it yeah this is perfect no this is perfect where'd you do that class um santa barbara in high school yeah no kidding and you felt the power of it I did

in that moment I felt the power of humor uh huh so that was that's why it's ironic you wanted to get laughs it's not that I wanted to get laughs I got laughs

right I wasn't looking to get laughs you sure it's just what I think now I want to get laughs yeah I think now then it was

I had no idea what the whole thing was about because I wasn't paying attention at all. I didn't hang out on set with my dad. Right. There was nothing that was interesting about it to me other than watching performances of like, I don't know, you know, James Dean or something like that. But you didn't have any, you always got along with your dad. I always got along with my dad, but I was more into law.

Right. Which I also did a lot of research on later becoming a lawyer no in jail yeah um i know yeah but yes there was yes i was very interested in criminal law that was fascinating to me which obviously has its acting connections also so once you have that revelation there but you weren't playing where you weren't playing sports it didn't sound like well no i was surfing yeah do you still do that i do how is it are you good at it i'm good i am yeah i mean i'm good enough where do you go i go wherever and is it what what's the we just went to costa rica which was amazing my wife and i yeah i've never been there oh it's great huh

pretty like it's pretty and it's primitive and it's dusty and it's fucked up and your lungs will hurt when you leave yeah perfect that's so it's primitive and it's dusty and it's fucked up and your lungs will hurt when you leave yeah perfect that's so it's got everything everything everything the good and the bad it does it's it's it's been it's been westernized enough where it's not totally uncomfortable but it's uncomfortable enough where you feel like like the idea of a spa to me yeah drives me absolutely nuts i mean it creates such tension in me yeah because you see the other people in their robes wandering around it's the robes part it's not seeing the other people yeah it's the robes like i remember somebody i was doing a show called the young

writers a long time ago and i had a western show yeah the western show i had a bookkeeper this guy and he was like you need to take a vacation and i was like what do you mean he goes you just work and work and work and you need to use some of that money and take a vacation relax a little bit and John Noel he's a great guy yeah so I went to Hawaii I stayed in a nice place which why which island Kauai no Kauai's I love Kauai too but I think I was in Maui yeah and then I stayed I checked into that hotel I got in my car

I started driving there was a dude hitchhiking on the side of the road I picked him up and I didn't make it back to the hotel for four or five days until I picked up my shit and went to the

and I had the best time with him man and we stayed on the beach and we just like ate fucking mangoes and papayas and shit it was great. Just some stranger? Yeah, it sounds like a weird story, but it's not. It's not that weird.

No, it was a wonderful, wonderful time. Did you learn any lessons? Was he magic? No. Did he bestow any wisdom upon you? No, he wasn't like a sage. No, he was young. I was what?

I was 22 and he was 20. Oh, so it was just like, hey, that kid looks like, yeah, bros. Yeah, gonna hang out. Yeah. Like a bearded wizard. No, no. Or a pedophile. Yeah. Could have went either way. Yeah. I got a tent. Where there's nobody around.

I'll show you some shit. I'll show you some shit. You like to feel good, don't you? Take this. You like vegetables? Here's a mushroom. You know. No thanks, bro. I'm Take this. You like vegetables? Here's a mushroom. You know. No thanks, bro. I'm good. I'm good.

Thanks, man. I got to go, Dad. I got to split. So you graduate high school and then you decide to commit to acting? Is that what happens? No. I kind of want to know because I don't mean to interrupt you, but I've gotten more respect for actors over time.

Because sometimes I would talk to actors and uh some of them don't want to be you know open or some of them may not have much in there which is fine but uh but there's this weird like lately because i've been doing some acting myself like i start to appreciate just exactly what you realized about it when you first did it was that like you it's its own world and you can you have this freedom to do what you're about it when you first did it was that like you it's its own world and you can you have this freedom to do what you're going to do in this other body almost in this other character so i i'm very interested how people get there so your interest in actors is purely self-based my interest in almost everything i love that. Again, more honesty. Yeah, I don't like actors so much either.

Yeah. I don't. I just, I don't, I don't. I've never. But the good ones you like. Not particularly. I like their work. Yeah, yeah.

Right, right. But no, I've always kind of, writers were always, like, I just got along with them better and I understood them better. And everybody wants to be an actor, man man as is shown in social media now well that's the thing that that that's the other side of it is that it's sort of a hustle it's a total hustle and and like you know you start like there there are dudes that you think are great they're sort of like i'm just in it for the pussy and yeah and i can hang on a trailer i'm just. Exactly. And I get that, but it's sort of like, no, what are you telling me that for?

You're going to fucking make something up? Yeah, and actors even now, people will be like, hey man, what do I do? And I'll go, you study and you this and then go find somebody. And they don't want to do that. They just want to be known. And back, that's why I appreciated Nolte Stanger.

Right. Kind of like in that world of me and Benicio, who I adore. Yeah. You know, we studied with Stella Adler and we were into the psychology of it. Right. Acting was only a means to manifest an interest in writing and good writing, in psychology, in these fucked up people trying to figure out what made yourself tick, what made other people tick. Yeah. Why do I feel like I do?

Yeah. And even though it's totally narcissistic, there's a psychological and sociological element to it that's fucking fascinating. And also the thing that I keep hearing is the servicing of the story. Servicing of the story. You're telling a story. That's what I keep hearing. You're telling a story as a social commentary in order to, well, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's just entertainment.

Right. But sometimes you're able to mirror society back to themselves so they can see where they're, like a great writer or a great journalist, so they can see kind of where they're at with one step back so they're not personally involved and blinded by their personal involvement sure you know what i mean that's cool yeah that to me is cool so if you do something like something cultish like the goonies or something what what i can but you wouldn't have known that was cultish at the time you did it no no of course not but then you do then you do thrashing which i always kind of talk down about yeah and i've learned not to do that now when somebody comes up and said hey man i loved you in thrashing yeah i go oh it was so shitty in that movie that was the whole reason why i moved to new york so i could study in new york and actually figure out

how to do this thing but i don't realize or i didn't realize that you know like say their parents were junkies yeah and they had nothing to live for and they were tortured. Yeah. And they found skateboarding because they saw that movie. Right. And it made their lives worthwhile. You take that away from them if you. That's the power of storytelling.

Right. Even if it's a shit movie. Right. But when you say, I wasn't any good, they're like, that robs them of their experience. Totally. Yeah. It robs them of their experience. And how dare me well yeah but that's a that's a sign of maturity that's something you can only learn you're not age it's right exactly age where it's uh you know it's like

it's an old joke you know where the comic is walking around the mall the next day you know after friday night shows did two shows and he's just hanging out with the other comic, and a couple of chicks walk up to him, and one chick goes, God, you were funny last night. I really want to fuck you. And the comic goes, really? Which show were you at? Totally.

Totally. You know, I just started watching. My agent told me, he said, very sweetly, he said, there's this Gary Shandling doc. Yeah. Did you watch it? Yeah. It's good.

Yeah, I interviewed him once. I didn't know him that well. Yeah, I didn't either. But I'll tell you, there's something about his approach that was really something. The attempt at spirituality, the commitment to sort of trying to get that peace. Trying to get that peace and also as a, what was he, an engineer? Also the idea, which I can identify with, which is working. Yeah.

We can figure out how to do this. Yeah. This is a mathematical equation. Yeah. That we just have to figure out. And I think I was, I i'm along those not that i figured it out in your particular you mean with spirituality with the craft of acting or with the craft of acting well that's well that's it that's the question so you do these early things

and so that's what happened you you get into these you got into a few tv shows and a couple movies to start you know just by virtue of who you are or what happened how did that happen oh you mean because my dad i don't know if it was because your you are or what happened how did that happen oh you mean because my dad i don't know if it was because your dad i'm just saying no i think that was that that actually worked against me i think i think i mean i not because of anything he did but i think the idea of nepotism was so um was so bad tasting yeah for lack of a better phrase, to people that they didn't want to be the ones that lent themselves to that.

But what I do think it did is open some doors and see people that I wouldn't normally have been able to see. Right. But, you know, I went out and I got an agent. I lied. I created a whole resume that was fake. And how old were you? You were young.

16. I had been kicked out of my house in santa barbara by your mother by my mom well how did that what happened i don't know it was just a another fight or whatever and i was you know it was 15 man i was drinking and i was it was bad it was surfing i don't blame her doing acid surfing's not bad no you just put something in there that was actually good you You were drinking. And surfing. You were surfing. And you did acid.

Yeah, the surfing part's kind of a good part. And acid halfway, half of the time. Half of the time, acid's okay. Surfing on acid, though. Oh. That was something. Was it? I bet.

No, I never did that. Yeah. So my mom, she just said, go live with your dad. And I think they were going through a divorce at the time. And so I went down there, and I tried to kind of get my shit together yeah and part of getting my shit together was i started doing martial arts a lot and then i started taekwondo uh-huh and then i went out and i just i you know it was it was like a desperate move to do something something other than what i was doing and you'd already had the. And you'd already had the improv?

I had already had the improv thing. Revelation? Yeah, which I think prompted the whole thing. But what was the moment where you decided to go to New York? I mean, why did you decide to take it seriously? So I did Goody's, which was like the greatest experience of my life. Right. I mean, and again, we go back to the Nolte thing, which is just communal, amazing, incredible people.

And Steven Spielberg and then and then donner and yeah and all that donner's great amazing yeah and it just the whole thing was unlike anything i had ever experienced and then i went from that to thrashing and the only reason i got thrashing was because there was this huge billboard up on sunset of goonies because i know that when i read for it i was so bad and there was no way I would have been hired had I not had a big billboard where I was the biggest person on the billboard. Right.

And then I saw Thrashing and I went to the premiere and I saw Thrashing and I didn't feel that I was, I wasn't doing what I wanted to do. Are you any good at watching yourself now? Yeah, I don't have that thing. Or you can't.

Maybe I'm not narcissistic enough, or maybe I'm so narcissistic that I can watch it. But when I watch it, I say, does this work or does it not? I think that I have some objectivity, like No Country or Milk or something like that. I watch it and I go, does that work? Or I'll call Gus and I'll say, what was that scene that we we did i think it's more appropriate if we put that in and take maybe that out oh yeah and that kind of thing yeah because you look at it as a story sure i don't look at it as me anymore right i see the story right and i go is it effective yeah it's way better to be okay in a great movie than be great in a shitty movie yeah you know what i'm saying sure it's great to

be in a great movie yeah there's nothing better yeah i bet in a great story if you're holding caulfield in in in catcher catcher in the lie yeah sure it'd be great fucking hell yeah but i mean but you also don't have a lot of control over that do you sometimes no no you don't all you have is your opinion and you do you know something like sicario and you know you get your notes so good yeah but see that's one of those things that like we did sicario and benny and i looked at each other and we went well that didn't work really totally why because you know you don't know people go do you have that feeling when you're doing a movie that's eventually appreciated do you have a feeling it's like what you just said i watched that movie twice oh that's that's good. Maybe three times.

I like that movie. You should stop watching that movie because he's thrashing. I'm telling you. It'll change your life. I'm thinking about getting a box set of Marcus Welby's. I'm going all the way back.

I want to start there. Go all the way back. That's it. No, I mean, but I thought your performance was great in Sicario and I thought he was great. But that's one of those movies where when he finally does his business, you're pretty satisfied.

Yeah, you're pretty satisfied in the way that Taylor kind of structured that whole thing. You're on Emily for half the movie, and then you do what you absolutely don't do, and that's change narrative point of view into benny and you don't really do that that's kind of like a great photographer knowing all the rules and then breaking the rules whereas that's that's taylor sheraton too you know he he's just one of those unique writers that's able to fuck with structure and have it work yeah and then you need a great director like denny yeah that's able to know how to so you think so ultimately it wasn't that bad experience but you just didn't feel it worked not that it wasn't a bad experience you just you have a feeling yeah and that feeling is usually

wrong right oh good yeah because that yeah now i'm mature enough right to know that to listen to my own feeling is meaningless so with the raw goods that you took to New York with the desire to pursue acting in earnest, what did you start doing? You mean what did I do in New York? Yeah, did you train? There was a guy that I met. I was writing a lot in my early 20s.

No. We started doing theater in a tent. Yeah. Just for us, though. No. Yeah. We started doing theater in a tent. Yeah. Just for us though. Just for us. That guy. That famous trainer.

No, I met a guy named Anthony Zerbe. The actor? Yeah. Oh, he's trippy, man. Yeah, he's my best bud and he married my wife and I recently

and yeah, he's my closest friend. Like he's like one of those character actors that was always kind of scary even when he wasn't being scary. And the nicest guy in the world. Yeah. The nicest guy in the world.

Anthony Serbi. Then you see Omega Man. Yeah. You go back and see those movies and he's just fucking fantastic and one of the great Shakespearean actors of all time. Really? And he and Roscoe Lee Brown, who's not around anymore. Roscoe Lee Brown. Yeah, great baritone black actor.

Yeah. And they did this thing called Behind the Broken Words, which was a compilation of poetry. And remember in the 90s when everybody was speaking poetry? Yeah. Like Cafe Lalo and Fairfax and all this kind of stuff. And they'd get up and they'd go, my balls. And everybody would go, yeah. Spoken word.

It was so fucking bad. Sure. It was all so bad. Yeah. yeah spoken word it was so fucking bad it was all so bad yeah but when you saw zerby and roscoe do beyond the broken words it was like it just took you to another it made it made me appreciate literature and poetry and words and structure and the music of poetry um and you just saw this by coincidence you just know what had happened as i did young writers with him yeah and i heard him reading i heard him speaking excuse me anthony poetry and and i kind of got together a few of my poems and went over on the honey wagon my little tiny you know trailer and

walked over and i said would you mind reading a few of these aloud and he said yeah he was kind of a dick and he was like you know yeah sure and he grabbed him and he started reading them and they sounded way better than they were because they were coming through his voice and then he looked at me and he said you're a writer and i was like yeah so we became very close and he gave me a lot of books to read and oh yeah like what was the first book he He gave me Blake. He gave me Ginsberg. He gave me Ferlinghetti. He gave me Auden.

He gave me, I mean, a lot of great books. It wouldn't be amazing if I had all those right here. I know, it's true. They're on another shelf. No, I have them, too. I have them, too. But if I put those up, it would have just fucked with me. It would have.

No, I would have gone, let's open a poem. Then the whole thing would be a poetry reading, and it would be a bummer. So the experience was, no, no, dude, that i mean i read it i you know i studied poetry i wrote i wrote poetry there's part of me that lives in that place not daily yeah you know you can't live there every day because we'd be different men you'd be driving a different car yeah it's true no it's true i had a guy i had a buddy who just wrote a book and he was like you know i'm thinking like this may sustain me throughout my and i'm like no man i know fucking great writers and they all have another job right they all have another job this guy my friend sam lipsight the guy who wrote

the ask he's a teacher at uh columbia yeah yeah unless they sell out somehow unless you're unless you're what unless you're you know what is it, J.K. Rollins? Yeah, sure. Writing a fantasy for the kids. But the adults are like, it's not just for kids. That's how you make money. So we started doing theater. I remember during hiatus, everybody wanted to do a movie. And Zerbe came up to me and he said,

do you want to do this play during hiatus? From the writers? And he had a connection with rochester new york jiva theater yeah and i did four or five seasons at jiva theater i did two plays every summer and rotating rep with him yeah so i did probably eight or ten plays and he and that was your training basically that was the experience doing stage work with anthony zerby and i studied with people i studied with stella adler for a while and in new york yeah and i was involved in different theater groups but mostly that i would say that was the that was just a uh that was one of those things that we're

talking about it's like whatever fear that you have or whatever trepidation i you know i still i shake when i when i speak publicly and yeah so i have a great fear around all that like acting and all that. I probably could have been a much better actor had I not been so fearful. When you were younger. When I was younger. Yeah. So I just went toward it.

Yeah. And did what I could to try and battle that fear. Plays will do that. That'll knock it out of you. I remember my dad came up at one point. He came up to see one play. In Rochester? In Rochester.

And I put him out on, when obviously nobody was there, but I put him out on the thrust of the stage and I saw his knees start to shake. Really? And I go, how does it feel? And he goes, never. Never. And I was like, yeah.

Did he ever do that? No, he never did that. He was always a TV guy, movie guy. He was always a TV movie guy. It's a much different racket, isn't it? It is, man. And I don't know if it's like, I don't prefer one over the other. I just don't think there's better acting in theater and all that because I've seen theater actors go to film and they're not good.

Right. I've seen film actors go to theater and they're not good. It depends. It's just another form of storytelling. No, definitely. But it's nice to have the chops, isn't it? It's nice to know that you did something that people appreciate. But it's also nice to know that like, yeah, I can do a play.

You know, I know that world. You know, like, you know, it's nervous, but I know how to do that. But that's what I mean with this day and age. People don't want to do that. Yeah. They want to just be, they want a lot of likes. Yeah, a and age people don't want to do that yeah they want to just be they want a lot of likes yeah a lot of likes and they just feel that heart yeah but you know what a lot of them don't really last and sometimes they last in a world that you know you

or i don't know about or give a shit about necessarily i you know there's all these different worlds there's all these different little niches but niches exactly you know what what are you gonna do there's no stopping it the cat's out of the bag it's over but you're doing it i mean look at you're in your garage right now i'm talking i'm looking at the list of people you've been talking to i'm like what the fuck like how do you pull this one off yeah all right so let's so okay so you do all this stuff where'd you meet benicio del toro i did a an episode of that private eye series oh and you guys been friends since i can't say we've been friends since,

but we've appreciated each other's company since. Well, are there any guys in the game that you are friends with in any regular way? Or are you just... Sean. Yeah. Probably Sean, Benny, who else? I mean, that's the thing with this business

is you have a lot of people that come and go. So there's Nick I was close with, know, Nick, I was close with. Mickey Rourke, I was close with. And, you know, I still talk to Mickey through Instagram now, which is fucking hilarious because, you know, you go back enough years and these people wouldn't even touch something like that. Right. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah.

But, you know, a lot of people that I appreciate, a lot of people that I've worked with because i've done a lot of movies yeah um but no man i i don't i don't know i don't i don't hang out in the right places i don't hang out with people in general like i it's like it's what are you gonna do yeah plus i had kids early how many you got you have four no i got two uh-huh yeah i got i got a almost 30 year old and a wow 25 year old so yeah i had kids very early on which and that's a responsibility that was great that's the greatest thing that ever happened i didn't have any it's over you didn't no i didn't do it no you could still do it that's what people tell me well they can yeah i know i know people that have done it you know that stuff that comes out yeah it still works it does really it's so i just grossed myself out because i was looking at you in the eye when i said yeah it's a very intimate moment it was weird but it was okay

you can i mean look it's it's a different deal now how they turn out women that amazing really really despite you despite me despite me seriously But I think that they appreciate me now more, being adults themselves. I'm happy that it turned out good. Yeah, thanks, man. You worked with a lot of, like I think that, like it seems like,

I think flirting with disaster, that was a ballsy movie for you. It was a good character. Well, not for me. I mean, I would have done it had it been any other movie. No, no, I mean just being chipper and gay it was nice i liked it that's the kind of shit that i like doing yeah and uh because i could tell like looking back at it was probably

a stretch at that time it was not a stretch in my acting experience it was a stretch in film i had done a lot of that shit on stage uh-huh and did you and i like that movie i really loved that movie i love that director yeah it's great and i became you know david r russell yeah really good friends did you do another movie with him no we talked about doing there was a series that i had written that he was going to do and then the kind of the thing fell apart and then he kind of redid it in a whole new different way and then we may do it next year but i don't think he's going to be involved, but we'll see. And when you put together,

let's talk about Kraft a little bit. Okay. You ready? Yeah. Because the difference between No Country and W, but also Milk, but then Hail Caesar, which I fucking loved.

Oh, good. I fucking love that movie i'm glad and i i got mad at people online who said it wasn't a great cohen's brother movie like i i've i've i've made the argument that it might be their best movie really yeah but people the cohen people they're just sort of like nah and i'm like you gotta watch it better yeah it's you gotta watch it better yeah i like that it's all in there yeah do you think it has anything to do with the fact that you're jewish uh because it had that kind of you know but they've been they've done more jewy movies oh way more i mean yeah i mean i didn't i didn't get that i i kind of got that feeling yeah but i thought it was more like a it's almost like

a i mean i'm curious i don't know why it did well or didn't do well or whatever i thought well what what i loved about it is is i like the old hollywood stuff i like that they put so much effort into staging things the from a different era that were that were really you know kind of uh popular entertainment and to see what went into that you know behind the scenes that musical number even though it was tongue-in-cheek it was amazing the esther williams bit like all that stuff you know the noel coward bit like that to me was like history and then have the subtext of the jesus story and your your sort of strange burden in life yeah uh and then just the the sort of points of departure from real hollywood stuff i just i liked the whole thing i thought it was a whole universe. And I thought they handled the, I thought they handled the, the, the communist thing

better than that movie that Cranston was in. Yeah. You know, and it was sort of a comedic approach to it, but it was like. I mean, it was a satirical approach. Satirical. Almost, almost a parody. Yeah. But it was, to me it was more.

Yeah. Really smart. Yeah. And that kid who played the cowboy i mean jesus christ yeah oh that kid was amazing what and that you know that kid is so funny because that's like i experienced that a little bit about like it's right around the corner for you man yeah you know yeah that's kind of what he's gotten and he's like i mean you look at his acting and different thing that he's that he's done he did that thing with warren baity and he was great in it he's just always great yeah

but the movie is like first of all when they offered me the movie i was really surprised when i read it um but they know you they they know me but i know that they were kind of asking around to see if i could if i was going to be good with the dialogue i mean that's very cohen's like there's no pretense with the cohen's at all yeah at all yeah you know and and there's no compliments there's no any of that yeah it's just work right and there's smart work yeah wait maybe i have my phone anyway there's there's funny text because like i'm doing this george and tammy movie and i and i asked uh joel i said are you interested in revisiting this as a director and he said yes I'm interested in revisiting it when it's finished

you know you can't just say no or say something kind but those guys you're doing George Jones and Tammy Wynette movie is that what that is you're playing George who's directing that a guy named Tate Taylor are you shooting it already

how's the script really good Jessica Chastain is playing A guy named Tate Taylor. Are you shooting it already? No, not yet. How's the script? Really good. Abe Sylvia, really good. Jessica Chastain is playing. Oh, my God. That's going to be great. I hope so. Do you think you can act drunk?

Yeah. I've done a lot of research. I've done some. All right. So tell me. So, okay. So they're looking around for other people to play the part. Is that what you're telling me?

No, they're looking around to see, I don't know, get some kind of affirmation that I can play that part. Huh. And then I heard. I heard that they were, and then I called them and I was like, what the fuck are you asking other people for? Like, you know me. Yeah.

Like, not only do you know me professionally, you know me personally. Just ask. I did a big movie for you. Tell me your fears. Remember the movie I did for you? I did several movies. I've done three and a half movies. I've done No Country, True Grit, and Hail Caesar, and I did a short for them that was

for the 60th anniversary of Cannes. So I've worked with them a lot. Yeah. I'm very fortunate, and I don't really understand it, given my personality, why people would want to work with me more than once, but I've been very fortunate. Like Oliver Stone, I've worked with twice. I've worked with, you know, I'm lucky in that way. So what exactly did they say when you said,

why are you asking around? What do you need to know? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. No, that's what I'm saying. There's no story there.

Yeah. There's never a story with the Coens. There's never a story. Well, how do, well, so what, now I've talked to Walter Hill in here. I've talked to a few directors, not many, but like, what's their approach to you? What do you just do all the work? I mean, cause that character, like for me, it was very, like you had to make certain

very distinct choices because it is a comic character. It is not like, you know, you can't just blow out. You know, it was a guy that sort of, know he had a burden he was very conscious of the burden with every movie there's something there's what i call the hook yeah and you look for the hook yeah so 90 of the research research that you do is for nothing yeah but 10 is your ability to be able to delve into and for me this all sounds pretentious, but to me, once you find that hook, then you start to saturate yourself. Then the whole world opens up. But the 90% is you embarrassing the shit out of yourself and trying to find that thing.

So I did a lot of stupid kind of meanderings with that character. And I remember I was doing a voice and i was looking at abedin costello and i was looking at like new jersey and i was you know i didn't know a you should talk like this or should we you know talk like this or you know when it's the same thing with true grit i was doing true grit and i came in there and i started rehearsing and that that character i was kind of doing like this yeah you know he's badass and he's gonna kill this little kid. And we all looked at each other

and we just went, it's not working. Right. He's got to take a chance. You got to take the chance. Yeah. Basically acting is, you know, feeling like an asshole 90% of the time and then 10% of the time you find that.

But you have to be willing to take the leap to be embarrassed and to feel totally off camber in order to find that thing so i was doing voices and then i'd send them a voice and then they'd send me back a comment like you know we love the we love this phrase but why don't you work on the eyes or why don't you work on the this these verbs and then i thought are they fucking with me are they just playing or that which is very very possible and still possible and they would never

admit it to me even if they were doing that but i finally found this thing this tone and then i sent it to him and they were like that sounds pretty close huh you know and then we start talking about the dress and how he dressed and does he change and how often does he change and you know does he have a tick does he have a thing like w you know we did this eating thing with oliver and we just decided on set like yeah he needs to be utilizing his hands all the time or have something in his mouth all the time why i don't know yeah so those are those are things that happen with the uh you know with the collaboration with the work yeah but like it sounds like those two guys like you know they don't he cohen's don't expect you to show up a full package they need to work you a little bit the cohen the no because the cohen's that what the cohen's do really well is they cast really well yeah they're just good at it yeah so they

don't have to do what other directors i've felt do and that's they're going to mold you and meld you into this thing yeah they go you're the guy so that whatever whatever they do up to that point is the torture that they go through i know with no country they saw everybody yeah and i sent them a tape and i was doing a grindhouse with robert rodriguez and i said i can't show up at the cohen's thing can you help put you know can you make this tape for me yeah and robert said why don't we just use the camera that we have and we'll do it on set? It was a million dollar Genesis camera. And then Tarantino came in and directed it and Robert shot it.

And then we sent these scenes from No Country to the Coens and then they saw it and their response was, who lit it? And there was no comment about me or that. So I was a no. I was an immediate no. And then or that so i was a no i was an immediate immediate no and then they went through more of a process of not finding the guy who they felt for you know however whatever aspects they were looking for of of a guy of a normal guy or somebody represented whatever they

saw in their heads and then finally um when they were going to choose one dude. And I got in there that morning, the day that they were going to choose somebody else. Yeah. And I walked in there and I did six scenes. I was very lucky. Michael Cooper was my agent at the time. And he got me into that room. And I did maybe four scenes with him with a full Texas accent.

And then I sat down with him and I talked. And Joel just stared at me the whole time he never blinked he never was like he was dead he's the tall one he was the tall one yeah and then the little guy ethan whose books i had read i'd read his book of poetry i'd read his short stories yeah we started talking about that and then he said well let me interrupt you for a second i said yeah and he goes can you do a texas accent i was like well I just I just did he was like oh good good okay well good so I left and I thought fucking fantastic meeting those guys a big fan yeah that's never gonna happen right and then I got a call at noon that day saying from Joel and Ethan saying would you be

interested in doing this part yeah I said And I said, let me think. Get back to you. It is a hell of a part, huh? It's an amazing part. Amazing part. Amazing movie to be involved with. And talk about something that wasn't precious at all. I mean, Deakins, Mary Zofri's doing the costumes.

Everybody's at the top of their game. Yeah. And again, there's no pretense. Yeah. There's no bullshit. There's no pretense. There's no ego.'s no pretense there's no ego none of it what was that guy's hook um there was a guy there's a guy it's funny because i was just up at my ranch and the rains came and i got we got locked into the ranch because we have an arizona crossing so when the rains when the comes, you can't cross that crossing. So you're stuck on the ranch.

And we started to, you know, there was no food. So I call my buddy Rick, who lives down the street, who used to be on my ranch. He used to live on a trailer on my ranch. Yeah. Where is this? In Paso Robles. Yeah. And I said, you know, we might need some food.

He goes, hey, man, no problem. You know, we'll get a backpack and a piece of rope, and I'll throw some fiddles over to you. And I was like, great. So that was the hook, was Rick. Rick, we were doing a scene, me and Carla Jean, and we were doing a scene in the trailer looking at the TV, and we were looking at each other when we were rehearsing the scene, and there was just something that wasn't working.

And I went to Joel and Ethan, and who the fuck am I to say anything at this point? But I was just like, something's wrong. Something's off. And they said no it's fine yeah I said yeah it's fine fine's not really enough and then we talked about it and this and that and then I thought of Rick and I thought Rick would never look at his wife right you don't look at your partner all the time you look at everybody in acting when you're acting you look at everybody in the eye when you're in, you look at everybody in the eye. When you're in life, you don't really do that. Like I'm talking to you, half the time I've been looking at my water bottle.

Sure. You know what I mean? It's just natural. Right. So then we just, if you look at the scene, we're both looking at the TV, talking to each other like that, but looking that way.

And to me, it made the scene. Oh yeah? That was very Rick. But was that a personality thing that came through the whole thing? I think so. Is the hook something that gives you a portal into somebody's character? Yes.

Right. And it was Rick. And I don't remember. It was Rick. Yeah. And then whatever came out of that was based on that thing. Right. That may have nothing to do with him ultimately.

Sure. But you let the script in. You let the story in. And you start using that just give me some visceral visual that i can click into that i can always resort to no matter what yeah knowing that that's a good that's the foundation that will always suffice yeah that and anything beyond that is up to my imagination and up to my skill as an actor and what about the Hail Caesar? What was the hook? Was the voice.

Oh, yeah? It was the Abbott and Costello thing. Who's the bigger one? Is that Costello? Lou Costello. Hey, Abbott. Lou. Lou. The fat one.

The fat one. No, no, no, no. The bigger one. The taller guy. Oh, yeah. The taller guy. Yeah. It was him.

Because there was three other, and I'm trying to remember. It was my mother was one. My mother and my aunt, because my mother had a really, really deep voice from Texas. Talk like this. Oh, really? So it was kind of like that tone. And then there was the Abbott and Costello thing. And then there was Michael Shannon, I remember I thought of at one point.

But a bunch of different voices. And then something like that. So you start with a voice on that one? With that one. That's wild. I mean, it could be a walk. It could be a... Again, could be, again, it sounds lame to me when I talk about it because literally I'm walking around and I'm talking to doorknobs.

I'm talking to, because I don't hang out with a lot of people. So I'm just trying to be as open as possible. And then with Hail Caesar, I rented a black box theater and I had all the actors come down and rehearse before we started the movie. And it wasn't really directed by me, but I just wanted to be able to have the banter. And then, because I was nervous. I was nervous. And everybody's willing to do that for you.

Everybody. Everybody. Yeah. Except for George. George. Clooney. Oh, really? He didn't come down?

No, I didn't ask him no it's too big of a movie star is he yeah no he's not no he seems like a nice guy really nice man really and with with uh with uh uh milk with dan white that guy's name right yeah he's a real guy real guy so did you look at him i was really fortunate because there was a cop that knew him really well that had a tape that not a lot of people had heard uh-huh a confession oh yeah and oh really only a handful of people had heard that so i was doing all the research i was doing all my stuff that was meaningless and then i heard that and that was all i needed i remember him talking i mean nobody really understands this

and should they but on the confession he was talking about how his fingertips were hot after he had shot Mayor Moscone and was walking over to shoot Harvey Milk yeah and how he remembers his fingertips being hot I thought that was such a weird yeah thing and I remember I asked Gus because we didn't have we had him shooting muscone and then suddenly he's walking into harvey's office and i said you know there was that great shot that you did an elephant where you follow the kid through the whole school yeah i said i think that it kind of deserves to be here yeah is to follow dan white's face from one end of the the city hall all the way to the other because was there a moment that he thought about

running was there a moment that the consciousness of knowing what he had just done and it was he sensitive to that was he not sensitive had he cut himself off was he so resentful at that point that there's just a determination to do as much harm what i loved about that character was this. He was so weak that his only resort or his feeling was the only thing that he could do to create an impact was have a gun, load a gun, point the gun, shoot the gun, and kill somebody. And therefore, he had an impact. Like that's how- He was completely impotent other than that right he felt so impotent at that point and not to justify what he did but psychologically that's so fucking interesting to me right because you know it's not it's not it's not even rage no

he just wanted satisfaction just let me have an impact on something. I mean, that's gnarly. So coming from a guy in high school who was interested in getting a laugh to shooting one of the greatest fucking people that created a movement in San Francisco. And that was quite, Sean did quite a performance there. He was so good, man. Yeah. He was so good. And what I love about Sean, working with performance there. He was so good, man. Yeah. He was so good. And what I love about Sean, working with Sean, we both pace a lot.

Yeah. And, you know, you think it's going to be precious and, you know, I'm going to work with Daniel Day-Lewis. Yeah. He's going to be in character the whole time. Right. And me, I find it much more freeing to do the opposite. Yeah. Not be in character?

To literally be as distracting as possible to everybody in my vicinity. Yeah, not being character? To literally be as distracting as possible to everybody in my vicinity so I can delve into something when we do the scene. That's for me. Yeah. And Sean was kind of the same way, so it was fun working with him. Yeah, I feel like I didn't make it clear

how much respect I have for Sean Penn as an actor, and I was certainly willing to read the book, and I did make it through most of it. But the thing that I wanted to have is a conversation like this and I feel like I just got him at a juncture in his life where he seems like, you know,

I don't know how consistent he is with how he feels about himself but he just wasn't going to do it. He wasn't going to talk about acting. He didn't want to act anymore. He saw it didn't serve him anymore, and I didn't believe a fucking word of it.

There you go. There you go. You didn't believe a fucking word of it, which is, you know, you probably should have said that because then there's an honesty, and then there's a road you can go down that's more substantive. Yeah, but he's tough. You know what I mean?

I don't feel that he was willing. Because there was a moment there where he was funny and he said something about Nolte, of all people, where I saw a moment where I'm like, fuck, why can't i talk to that guy the guy who said that right you know what i mean no i do i know what you mean i love talking to people like that because i told him nolte had been on the show and all sean says was he found it yeah he found it yeah yeah yeah exactly no but you gotta when we sean and i did gangster squad together and we all had a reading and jeff robinoff who was running warner brothers at the time you know wanted to do a reading for for the for the big wigs for the suits and i was sitting next to sean doing the reading and nick had come in and they go and and like halfway

through the reading when nick was he was mumbling all his shit to himself. And Sean looked over at me or kind of leaned over to me and he goes, that's going to be you later. I was like, fuck you, man. See, he is funny, isn't he? He's extremely funny. Yeah. And he's very, very smart. Yeah, I can tell that. He'll go down this fucking labyrinth that you go, where the fuck are you going, man?

Yeah, right. And then he'll come around and make a point that's an extremely intelligent point yeah but you just have to be willing to to hop on the magic carpet ride in order to get there yeah and what i look forward to is the future if he hates acting so much or whatever that is then fucking keep writing yeah keep writing and see what happens actually develop as a writer i'd like because i think he's yeah he's smart enough to be able to do it and i think that i think he enjoys it yeah if you don't enjoy acting then fuck it like i don't enjoy acting particularly but i do enjoy the result and i enjoy the people i work work with i think acting is a pain in the ass really totally why because of the repetition i've seen i remember people even in high school yeah you know you do a scene and you know they'd go fuck yeah uh-huh fucking nailed that yeah i was like i've never

had that feeling ever ever like what is that about anything no no i've had that feeling about other things but i've never had that feeling about acting yeah and then you see the result and you go and i have the ability to be able to go wow that worked right or that's a good story i guess the question is like those guys that you saw say that and that did they nail it where oh no not what is nailing it what is i don't even know what that is like you made somebody cry or no or made somebody laugh? It just all worked. It just worked. I love the Gary Shandling thing when he finally,

the whole, the pinnacle of his thing was to do the Tonight Show. And the Tonight Show is what, and then he did it. And who was it? Bob Saget was backstage in the wings waiting for him. And he goes backstage and he goes, what am I going to do now? Fucking narcissistic, sensitive. And we're all like that. We're all different versions of that.

I know. You know? So, oh yeah. And also I wanted to, like I've watched American Gangster many times. I like that movie. Me too, man. I thought you were good in that too. I liked working with Russell and Denzel.

Yeah, those guys are powerful. You know, it's nice because when I'm in New York, you know, if there's any, like, it's usually the black people in New York. Yeah. The African Americans. No, they appreciate me for whatever reason. Oh, yeah?

Like, you went fucking head-to-head with Denzel, yo! Yeah, yeah. Yo! You know? And I love that. I love that. I like my contingency well uh well ethan hawk talked to me about denzel about working with him like how he right but he said that he literally watched uh denzel movies like football players watch game movies yeah yeah because he he just

knew that if he didn't show up ready yeah he was gonna just get trampled yeah yeah yeah yeah denzel and i had a moment oh yeah oh yeah we had a moment where we were rehearsing and he didn't come to set right away yeah and then ridley was like trying to get him to set and he got to set he didn't know that he'd been asked to come to set and then we were rehearsing yeah and then i put my i forgot a line during rehearsal and i put my hand on his shoulder and he hit my hand off and he goes don't ever fucking touch me and i was like i remember i had that moment where i go is this the character or is this denzel there's denzel mad at me right and i looked at him and i smiled and what i thought is holy fuck i, I'm going to scrap with Denzel Washington.

Right. Like I'm a scrapper kid. Yeah. Totally willing to go to the pavement. Yeah. And like, I'm going to fight

Denzel Washington. Yeah, yeah. This is amazing. Yeah. I was actually really happy about it. And then it didn't happen and then we just kept going

and all that. And then we did another scene that was MOS, no sound, big wide shot. Yeah. And we had to come up and look at each other. And even though we had dialogue,

there was no reason to say it because it was such a wide shot. So we just kind of stared at each other. And we were looking at each other in the eye and he wasn't smiling and I wasn't smiling. And I finally looked at him and I said, I think I'm falling in love with you. And then they yelled cut and he burst out laughing

and we've been buddies ever since but there's a like a respect and i get it man because i come from a culture of massive ribbing yeah and and you have to be able to take and give that right before there's respect given and then once there is respect given there's incredible loyalty right that the friends that are left that i grew up with there's an immense loyal i mean they'd all walk through fire for me and vice versa you've passed the tests you've passed it's so funny because when you tell me that moment where you touch him and he goes don't you ever fucking touch me i i immediately my first reaction would have been

like oh god i'm sorry sorry i'm not worthy i not worthy. But you didn't even think that. No. No, man. It was like my whole childhood just resurfaced. I was like, fuck. I'm going to fight with Denzel Washington. This is amazing. I can't wait. That's great.

So let's talk briefly about the superhero movies. Yeah, if you want. Well, I mean, do you like doing them? Well, here it is. The whole perception of superhero movies is a sellout mentality avengers what is infinity war is that what i have this i have i have avengers if infinity were coming out then i have deadpool two coming out yeah then i have uh sicario 2 coming out really and then i have legacy of a white-tailed deer hunter that comes out on this. Sicario 2?

Yeah. What happens then? The Soldado. Day of the Soldado. Day of the Soldier. So that must have done all right then, huh? They're making another one. Yeah.

And I think if this one's good enough, then we'll make another one. And it's you and Benicio again? Yeah. It's just me and Benicio. And Emily's not in this particular one she may be in one in the future but um but yeah it's uh yeah we did it wow how how did it feel this time good difficult yeah yeah yeah it was a guy named uh stefano salima uh-huh um who did gamora in italy yeah and then uh Darius Wolski who does a lot of Ridley

Scott's movies shot it uh-huh and uh I think it's good oh great I mean I saw it it is good yeah I mean that's objectively I say would I like that movie and yes I would like that movie and when's that out that's out June 29th oh man that's exciting so I don't watch the superhero movies so you're saying what were you saying? The sellout? You know, the mentality of, so I went into, you know, Avengers was offered to me probably four years ago when I was doing Everest in London. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I had turned down a lot of those types of movies. So they sent me a Bible.

Oh, yeah. Your fingers got all fucked up in Everest. My fingers got all fucked up in Everest my fingers got all fucked up in Everest yeah I remember now I saw it

the character yeah character lost his finger thank you go ahead thank you I appreciate it so Marcus Welby

for me was an inspiration it was an inspiration for Thanos so I opened up this bible and I was like

so wait a second. So it's the big purple dude against all the Avengers collectively. Yeah. Bitching. Yeah. Love that. You're the big purple dude. I love that.

Yeah. I don't want to be a superhero. I don't want to be somebody who is just there. Sure. And not to. So you found that an exciting opportunity. I found that an exciting opportunity i found that an exciting opportunity and then i said so mocap and how long and this and that we're going to do it so when i first did

a little teaser it was me in front of like 36 cameras with 36 blinding lights yeah with a director i couldn't see and i was kind of bummed i had made the decision and and i thought well that's how it's going to be for the next you you know, when we finally do the movie for a year. Forever, for a decade. For a decade. Of this guy. And I had turned down other movies based on that kind of thing.

And I thought, you know what? It is what it is. It's all good. Good paycheck. It was a good paycheck. Yeah. And so the point is, I had so much fucking fun

and I'm not saying that to promote it because people are going to see this movie anyway. Yeah. It was like New York, Lower East Side, black box theater, fucking acid infested, completely and utterly left to your imagination with the Russo brothers who come from film, where every direction was like look you see the godfather so he's got he's so he's got the gun to his fucking head right yeah and he's just about to blow his fucking brains out so blow his fucking brain i'm like holy shit dude it's like a marvel movie right so i loved everything about it. I loved that it was so unsettling.

I loved that I had dots all over me and a head cam and this. And sometimes I'd be by myself in a warehouse and there'd be 50 people on computers and I'd be talking to nobody. Yeah. I didn't have to deal with actors half the time. Yeah. It was awesome. Wow.

I would do it again in a fucking second. And did you see the movie? You would do it again in a second. In a second. Did you see the movie? I haven't seen the time. Yeah. It was awesome. Wow. I would do it again in a fucking second. And did you see the movie? You would do it again? In a second. Did you see the movie? I haven't seen the movie. I've seen portions of it, which is absolutely like cutting edge amazing. And what about Deadpool?

Deadpool was very difficult to do. A whole different kind of comedy that I've never done. That's the one with Ryan, right? That's the one with Ryan. Yeah. Which I think is going to be, you know, just, I don't know what this means, but it tested in 98 recently. Oh yeah? And, uh.

And are you the, like, it's the U2? Are you bored talking about this? No. I saw Deadpool. You saw the first one? Yeah. Did you like it? Yeah.

Totally. I like him a lot. I like him a lot too. I don't think there's any better character, actor, marriage that I've ever seen. Yeah. Than the, at least contemporarily yeah between that guy and that character he just gets it man yeah i the first time i thought that he was a genius was in that that weird movie which who was in it drew barrymore we were the fat suit

do you remember the movie where he played the fat kid and he grew up to be like uh like a record executive and he wanted to go go hook up with the girl. That's it. He was so fucking funny. You know what I liked was The Proposal. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I don't like rom-coms, romantic comedies.

But he was good? I thought he was great. Yeah, I can't remember. I saw it three times. I can't remember the fucking... I told you, man. I listened to Oprah and I watched The Proposal. Oh, you worked with Paul, too, on Heron Vice. I saw that. I talked to him. I did. You did talk to him. I have. Yeah. Yeah. He's a

good buddy. I mean, I love him. That's one of those things. He's a writer first and foremost. Yeah. And I just, fascinating brain. He's a fascinating brain, but when I first met him, when we got that interview, I was like, oh my God, I'm going to meet the dark genius. When I first met him, when we got that interview, I was like, oh my God, I'm going to meet the dark genius. He doesn't talk. He's a mystery man. He shows over and he's just like this goofy kid from the valley. And I'm like, you're him?

Yeah, exactly. It's like a disappointment. There's a guy that I met, Malcolm Lipke, who's a painter. And I've bought several of his paintings. And his paintings are great. They look like turn-of-the the century fucking figurative women and fucking risque and all this kind of shit and then i met him and then he goes hey i'm skip and i was like what the fuck because i thought it was going to be like meeting nolte like hey how are you do you like to smell my brush? And I'm like, no, man. I'm good. I'm good. I've been huffing my brush for 16 years, man.

Try it. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just didn't, you know, it didn't. So you just don't meet your heroes, man. It's hard. You don't. But sometimes they deliver, right? Sam Shepard delivered.

He's a good guy. Sam Shepard's, you know. But that's the thing. Did you like talking to Paul or were you disappointed? No, no. I like talking to him. Yeah. Yeah, because I did that thing with him. Everybody's human good guy. Sam Shepard's, you know, but that's the thing. Did you like talking to Paul or were you disappointed? No, no, I like talking to him. Yeah. Yeah, because I did that thing with him. Everybody's human, ultimately.

Doesn't it suck? Yeah. No, no, it's sort of refreshing. It is refreshing. Before every interview, I'm like, oh, what the fuck am I going to do with it? You know, and then like, you know, you walk up and you're like, oh, I know that guy. I don't know why, but like it happens sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some people, you know, they're having a rougher go at it you look nervous when

i saw you though did i just for a moment were you well because i'm this is like you're the first guy in here i've spent the morning i walked across the street to get a guy to stop using a tool this is important man in my new neighborhood i'm like josh brolin from no country what's it called his dad was on marcus wellman man his fucking son's coming right now man can you please stop so it was that kind of morning i don't know if i was nervous about you like it no well you just proved that you weren't it had nothing to do with me i was a little nervous you know but like i just didn't here's the my projection of you was like uh like how are you going to show up because i've been wanting to talk to you for a while and

was a like i don't that's something i don't know because sometimes people show up as like yeah where am i what is this yeah you know that thing and i'm like and i'm like hey come on it's gonna be okay well i i called you know liz mahoney uh-uh no she's a publicist yeah i called her this morning and i said you're not coming, are you? Right. And she said, no, because I'd wait outside and my battery would go dead and I'd have nothing to do, which I love her for saying. Yeah.

But I prefer doing this as if it was an accident. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Sure. I stopped at your house because I had to pee so bad. Yeah. And I'd get arrested if I peed outside on a tree. Can't get arrested again. You let me use the bathroom right go hey by the way i got some sound in

the garage yeah do you want to go just talk about some i'm thinking about starting a podcast yeah that's kind of how i'm treating this yeah no disrespect no no no disrespect i mean you know you can use the bathroom thanks i've drank a full bottle all right well i think we're good you good you feel good whatever man whatever it's feel good? Whatever, man. Whatever? It's all good. I enjoy talking to you. It was good. I feel like you should read a poem now, though.

In my craft to sell an art exercised in the still night when only the moon rages and the lovers lie bed with all their griefs in their arms. I labor by singing light, not for ambition or bread or the strut and trade of charms in the ivory stages nor for the common wages of their most secret heart. Not for the proud men apart from the raging moon I write on these spindrift pages nor for the towering dead with their nightingales and psalms but for the lovers their arms round the griefs of the ages who pay no praise or wages

nor heed my craft or art. Dylan Thomas. Nailed it. Thanks man. Good talking to you. Nailed it. Thanks, man. Good talking to you. Great meeting you. All right. His Nick Nolte impression was just killing me. He cracked me up a couple times.

It was nice talking to him. Thank you. I hope I didn't weigh you down at the beginning, but I can't insist enough that people, American people, go see the National Memorial for Peace and Justice and then go to the Legacy Museum and understand what this country was built on and where the problems persist. Okay, that's it.

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