WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 916 - Mary Steenburgen

Episode Date: May 16, 2018

Mary Steenburgen started out pretty far away from Hollywood, as a young girl in Little Rock, Arkansas, growing up during the era of school desegregation. She fortified herself in that environment before heading out to become an actor, working directly with legendary acting teacher Sanford Meisner and getting her big break thanks to Jack Nicholson. Mary and Marc also talk about parenting, fame, divorce, re-marriage, and the close friendship she has formed with the co-stars of her new movie, Book Club. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf i'm broadcasting from a hotel room chair with a towel on it. Always put a towel on it in my underwear with my socks still on. That's all I'm wearing. I'm in a hotel in Birmingham, Alabama, looking at lightning striking a few miles away out my window. Rain is starting to trickle down. It was an amazing cloudburst today. It just came and it started and then it kind of moved through. It's been nice and damp and hot. I don't know why I'm saying nice. Humidity is not

my friend. Is it your friend? Hey, the world is burning. Hey, did you know that? It's burning from the inside and the outside. It's burning because of us and because of it. It's exciting times, folks. And all I know is that I'm here and it's slow down here and things just plod along and the lightning striking and there's not a lot of traffic. And today I ate some food at Saw's Soul Kitchen. For some reason, I've been trying to eat better because I've been putting on the weight. I thought something called smoked chicken and greens, chicken and greens, staying away from the pork. Go with chicken and greens. That sounds half healthy. Could be all healthy. Then I got the plate, and what was on the plate was a nice pool of grits, and on top of that, there was some

greens, some southern-style greens, and on top of that was the smoked chicken with a white barbecue sauce, and on top of that was just a sort a sort of a, a nice pile of thin onion rings. Yeah, that was good and healthy. It was just like eating at a restaurant where concerned people eat for their health. Not so much, but it was fucking amazing. And, uh, looking forward to taking my statin later. That'll erase it, right? Isn't that what statins are for? To erase that? I've been good. I deserved it. I deserve to be uncomfortable. I deserve to not like myself five minutes after I eat it. How are you guys doing?

Everything okay by you? I should mention who's on the show today because it was a lovely conversation. Mary Steenburgen. Mary Steenburgen is on the show. She's quite amazing. She's in a movie that starts tomorrow called Book Club with Jane Fonda, Candice Bergen, and Diane Keaton. That's tomorrow it starts. And we have a nice conversation about a lot of stuff going all through the life, all through the causes

and stories and the acting. She's married to Ted Danson. Ted Danson had nothing but nice things to say about her. And they seem to really love each other, which is nice. Isn't that nice, to really love people? Isn't it? Can you do it? How are you doing with that? I'm doing my best. I am capable of it, though not great at it.

I'm not great at the receiving love or giving love. I'm good at listening and talking empathetically and engaging with people in an honest way for about an hour or two. But when it comes to the long term, then I got to deal with trust and I got to deal with defensiveness and I got to deal with paranoia and fear of manipulation and fear of being completely erased and steamrolled and then curious about my own self. And who am I really? Am I an actor? Am I not an actor?

And I'm talking not professionally. I'm talking about real life. Have I just constructed a character for myself to move through the world? And deep down inside, I'm nothing but a small boy who didn't quite realize himself. Is that possible?

But anyways, I received a lot of nice feedback about what I told you my experience was at the Peace and Justice Memorial and the museum down in Montgomery. And I appreciate it. And I'm glad that people heard it and it had an impact for them. And they want to go and visit those places because it was pretty astounding. The whole thing was pretty astounding. I got a few emails here and there.

I got one email from a guy. I got an email from a local here. And the subject line just says, Southerners take on National Memorial for Peace and Justice. Mark, I was very happy to hear your comments about the National Museum for Justice and Peace. As an Alabamian, I've struggled with my state's history and how we address it. Your heartfelt descriptions of the art at the memorial and what it signifies was a wonderful

thing to hear as I drove home in the humid Alabama evening. Having grown up in Alabama, I've been aware of the horrors you described for all of my adult life. I've experienced a little white guilt, in quotes quotes in my late teens and early 20s our past was deplorable but i take comfort in the fact that our present is full of friendships and marriages between the races we ain't solved all our problems in this regard but we ain't done working on it either boomer lives thanks brian that was a one of many emails and you know i I can only talk about what's happening. I can only talk about my feelings in real time and what I've experienced. It's weird. I've been a bit

disconnected from television. I haven't watched television in five days. I'm sort of still compulsively looking at my phone. I know what's going on. Much of it is terrifying. There's no end in sight. I don't know what happens. Some of it seems good, and then turns out it's going on. Much of it is terrifying. There's no end in sight. I don't know what happens. Some of it seems good, and then it turns out it's not great. It's just, and a lot of it is speculative. I think it all seems speculative, and we feel like we don't have a lot of control over stuff. So I ate a big plate of food today and just did my work and focused on the present.

Is that all right? Is that okay? So Mary Steenburgen, brilliant actress, a very decent and sweet person. I enjoy talking to her. Her new movie, Book Club, with Jane Fonda and Candice Bergen and Diane Keaton is in theaters tomorrow, May 18th. This is me talking to Mary back at the new garage. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region.

See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products

in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. I don't have kids and I don't regret it because I don't know how people do it. I don't know how you don't panic all the time. I do. You do?

Of course. Then you have grandchildren and just when your panic has sort of eased off and you went, you go, they're kind of figuring it out. Then your grandchildren is like, oh, I'm too vulnerable. My dad used to have this. Oh, the squeezy muscle thing? Yeah, his had green handles. Was it wooden?

I remember my dad had a wooden one. No, it was green plastic handles. And I can't really do it very well now. That one's hard. And I couldn't really do it very well then. I feel like that one's harder. That's hard. Yeah, that's super hard.

Oh, he just had one for around the house. I think my dad had them too. Was it a dad thing? I don't even know what you call those. Those are squeezy exercise things. I guess they're hand strengtheners or something. Let's see if we can. So do I go right there?

Oh, that's great. You can move the mic too. Yeah. But whatever you want. So your dad had, that's a good start. He had hand strengtheners. We're already into the deep stuff. Yeah, we really are.

Your dad's hand exerciser. Yep. It was sitting in the living room next to his chair, which was this leather recliner that no one could sit in but my dad. Was it like a lazy boy type of sit thing? Yeah, very much like a lazy boy. So that was the throne? But not that fancy. Oh, really? Yeah, it was his special place.

I was thinking about our house the other day, which I... That you grew up in? Yeah, which I love. And actually, my sister and I still own it. Really? Yes, because I'm emotionally stunted and can't let go of things. and um but um i was thinking about how hilarious it was that we had a phone and an extension because our house was so small that if you went to the extension you could still hear the person talking right like there wasn't a privacy thing so if they walk down the hall, you could still hear them?

Totally. The house, if they walk down the hall, it's like three steps. Where is that house? It's in North Little Rock, Arkansas. North Little Rock, Arkansas. That's where you came from, Arkansas. Yeah. How many siblings do you have?

One. Just the two of you? Yeah. You and your sister? Yeah. you have one just the two of you yeah you and your sister yeah my parents my parents uh lost three children but um but my sister and i are the survivors like lost them when at what i had a sister that lived 12 days and died and then i had a brother that was stillborn and then then they had me and then they lost one more child and then they had my sister and I think it sort of explains a lot about my

life because literally I was treated like the miracle child of all time because I lived and I guess you can understand that how did how did that kind of tragedy befall your folks? I mean, was it their hospitals or what? It's just bad luck? Yeah. It was, oh my God, what a sad way for me to start this interview. I don't know. But yeah, it definitely had an impact on my family, but I don't think I realized the impact of it until I was grown.

Sure. And could kind of think about what it means to lose one child, let alone three. Right. And after you go through all that and even if it's that you know i don't guess it's ever easy yeah and then it kind of also makes me understand why you know they were so they were amazing parents and i guess partly it's because you know they were so grateful that they had children they'd worked so hard for it oh my god it's so heavy yeah yeah and uh but it was just one of those things that was not talked about and just everyone knew it happened and that was

that well the we the my sister the older sister that lived 12 days um suzanne yeah she uh it's actually a horrifying story because she she had a little something wrong with her heart and then she was in some type of a respirator machine thing in the room with my mother and it malfunctioned and it also wouldn't open and my mother oh my god so so my parents for years had people suggesting that they sue yeah you know and and they would never have done that yeah it was such a that would be such a sin to them to have made money somehow off of her death and And that was kind of the people I was raised with, you know? Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a principle. Yeah.

Yeah. I know. Yeah. I've met people like that. I don't, it's not my instinct to sue either. Yeah. I think it's something that people, when people are sewers, that's what they think immediately. Yeah.

Yeah. And people who aren't are just sort of like no i don't you know there's it's no justice in it yeah and also why would i want to spend my life reliving this over and over oh my god it's so sad and horrible yeah so so now every single thing we're going to talk about is going to be going up from here but you were the you're the oldest. So I'm the oldest, yes. The oldest who made it. And my sister is five and a half years younger than me. A school teacher. She's retired now, but a school teacher in Arkansas.

She stayed, huh? Yeah. And I came from a lot of teachers. My mother taught some. My aunt was a teacher and then a principal. And she was a huge part of my life and and uh so that was the summers were spent in newport arkansas at gilbs gibbs albright elementary pretending i was a teacher in in a classroom with like chalk and blackboards and it was so luxurious

yeah it was so like crazy wonderful while my aunt was in her office oh that's that's where you did she bring you to work and you get to play yeah and and it was like the whole school was my playground so i loved it it's so weird because i have no it's one of those parts of the world where i have no sense of arkansas i've never done i've never stunning it's so beautiful It's such a physically beautiful state. And for some reason, it has a crazy wide variety of tree life. So the autumns there are just everything you think of about New England autumn color. It's very much there in Arkansas. Right, because the Ozarks. Yeah. I feel like I've driven through the Ozarks.

Yeah. But I don't feel like I've spent any time there. And I think it's in my brain, it gets cataloged in kind of like backward, southern. Right. I know that's wrong. And decent people have come from there. Yeah, yeah. But I don't, like, I wouldn't know, maybe I've driven through Little Rock, but I don't

know what it's like culturally. I mean, are your recollections good recollections? Yeah. They're all good. Yeah. Well, I don't know if they're all good, but no. I mean, I'm a human, so no, they're not all good. But I was raised in a really interesting moment because I was starting grade school just as Central High had been desegregated.

And so the heroes who went to Central High, I saw all these images of them going to school. With the National Guard there, right? And I was so young because I was just starting school that in my brain, that's what happened to you when you went to school. Suddenly it's like... You're escorted by soldiers. Yeah, like it looks so scary and loud and people are screaming. And I went from having been excited to go to school to no, I don't want to go to school. And then I think my parents realized the imagery that I was seeing on television. Terrifying.

So, but then, of course, I also realized, oh, what's different about me and them? Right. It's the color of our skin. Right. And so, it was a really interesting time to be raised there because you really couldn't ignore race. Because you really couldn't ignore race. So you became one way or the other. You just had feelings one way or the other. Either you were against segregation or you were for segregation.

Yeah, or even just basically people with dark skin and people with light skin you either had a feeling that one was superior to the other or you didn't and and it partly depended on on who you know and it wasn't a place where people couldn't think about it you had to yeah because it was so in the national spotlight that was a big deal yeah wow yeah, how could you not for at least a decade or two, how could that not be part of the conversation about everything? It was.

It was, you know, and then when I was in seventh grade, for the first time, I went to school with African American kids. Uh-huh. There were three of them.

And they were my teachers. They were definitely my teachers, you know, because. Your fellow students. Yeah. Yeah. Because, first of all, they were handpicked by the black community to be, bless their hearts, to be emissaries and to. Really? Oh, my God.

And what year was this? What grade? There was so much pressure on these three kids. What grade? Seventh. Oh, really? Yeah. And one was a science genius.

One was the quarterback who was brilliant. And then one girl who, Karen Muldrow, who was in my class, who was beautiful and wise behind her years and so smart. And, you know, they were the first people I knew that I really got to know. And the pressure was still on at that time. I mean, everyone knew it or it was. Oh, my God. It was, I mean, it's hard for people now when you talk about it to even understand how much pressure they were under.

Or what segregation when it was and what it really was. I mean, obviously, people talk about cities you know, cities being segregated now and that segregation institutionally still exists, which may be true. But back then or before that, it was just the way it was. Blacks here, whites here. That's that. Yeah. At one point, some years ago, I was given an award, the Sinclair Lewis Award, which

was really lovely to receive. But in trying to write a speech about it, I kept thinking especially about Karen and how utterly terrifying it must have been for her to go to a school where she knew that most people didn't want her there and how scary it must have been for her parents and everything else. And so as I kept struggling with this speech, I finally just gave up. And I tracked her down and I called her and I said, can I fly you out to come with me to an event? And I gave the award to her because I said, this is your award. Oh, my God. Because if I grew up to care about such things, you're an enormous part of why.

Because you were my example of courage. You were one of my examples of somebody being beyond brave. Yeah. And where'd you find her? Was she still in Arkansas? Yeah, I found her. Yeah. And was she?

She's lovely. Yeah. When did you do that? Was she still in Arkansas? Yeah, I found her. Yeah. And was she? She's lovely. Yeah. When did you do that? Oh, my God. I think it was about 12 to 15 years ago. Was she just sort of, had she not heard from you at all? No, we'd occasionally corresponded or seen each other at different events. That's crazy.

It must have been so nice. Did you both cry? Yeah. I mean, I was. I just started crying and hearing about it. Well, it was, I realized at one point in trying to write, I kept being compelled to write about her. Yeah.

And then I thought, this is so disingenuous that you're just writing about her when she's the one who did it. Yeah. that you're just writing about her when she's the one who did it. Yeah. And I realized that pretty much everything I understood about social change in my life went back to her. Right. And those other two young men.

Yeah. But she's the one I got to know the best. So in growing up with that, I mean, I'm assuming that your family was on the right side of things. Yes. My parents loved the Kennedys. Yeah. I have a really vivid memory of the day that President Kennedy died. It was a weird experience because I was in fifth grade and I almost never missed school.

And my parents were not, they didn't allow me to miss school. And so I had to be really super sick to go to school. And I remember waking up and just having such a weird feeling that I couldn't go to school that day. And I remember also that I faked being sicker than I was because I knew my dad was going to be home that day. My dad was a freight train conductor. And so part of the time he was at the other end of the line and part of the time- Within the state? No, he went to Poplar Bluff, Missouri. That was his run from Little Rock to Poplar Bluff

on a freight train. How far is that? I should know that, but I don't know. But it's a town- So like in a day- Just over the border of Missouri. So in a day he'd make one or two runs? No, no. Just one.

He'd be gone. He'd be gone. He'd spend like two days at home, and then he'd get a call in the middle of the night, and he'd pack his grip, as he called it, which was a little leather bag. And we had an old Chevy, and my mother would put us in the car and we'd drive him to work at two in the morning, three in the morning, four in the morning because my mother couldn't leave us alone or me alone in the house.

And we only had one car. So we couldn't be without the car. Everybody up. I take dad to work. Everybody up. And so I saw my I saw that train yard at at 2 a.m., 3 a.m. I have this beautiful memory of my dad standing on a boxcar against the dawn sky waving at me as we pulled away. Yeah.

Why was it an emergency situation? Why didn't you have a regular schedule? Why was it this middle ofof-the-night business? That's how Trayman used to work. Oh, really? I don't know what it's like now. There's so many changes because of computers, but that's how Trayman...

The call used to come and... But he worked every week. Yeah. You never knew when you were going to work. My dad had some health problems in my childhood, but when he could work yeah that's how it worked okay so the day john kennedy so the day john kennedy died i i something was wrong i don't know if it was just feeling something weird you didn't know you hadn't heard anything oh there wasn't anything to have heard yet and and uh i didn't go to school yeah and it was pouring pouring pouring

rain like torrential rain so much that the gutters across the street had backed up in the street it started to flood and we have this picture window at our house and i remember just watching this like torrent of rain and the department of water and power came to deal with the the gutters that And so they're all across the street. And clearly, the men in the truck had a radio on. And so I just remember almost in slow motion watching the men run from the gutter that was overflowing over to the truck, including my dad, and put their heads in there. And I just remember my dad's body language something I knew something terrible and huge had happened. You could just see it in his body. And then he came running across the street and ran, you know, didn't even take the dripping coat off and ran to the phone in the kitchen and call my mom. And that's how I found out what had happened is he told her at work that what was happening oh and it was like it was just and so i saw it all whatever they showed on

television i did see in real time whatever they showed because i was home it was like just the most horrible worst thing that could happen yeah to, to the country, for most people. It was like, I can't, I don't, I was two months old. But that feeling of somebody who was so loved and so much hope was put in. Yeah. Just like, just taken out. Yeah. I felt like somebody like him could understand, even in spite of the fact of how he was raised and money and all that.

I sort of felt understood by him somehow as a poor kid in Arkansas. Did you feel like you guys were poor? Well, we would have been kind of solidly middle class except for the fact that my dad had multiple heart attacks during my childhood and he couldn't work for years at a time. So a family of four lived on what a secretary for the school administration made. That's what your mom did? Yeah. That's what your mom did? Yeah.

So, you know, until we could be old enough to work ourselves and, you know, help out. Yeah, it was challenging. He had heart condition? He did. He had multiple heart attacks. Throughout his life? Yeah. In 1981, he had a surgery and then he lived 11 more years in his heart. He didn't die of a heart attack.

He died of lung cancer from his chewing tobacco. Lung cancer from the chewing tobacco. Yeah, which a lot of people don't know you can do, but you can. You can get lung cancer from chewing tobacco. What was his brand? Oh, my God. I should remember, but I tried to probably something like that. Was it like the pouch or the can? No, it wasn't a can.

It was a patch. Oh. So he had a wad all the time? Yeah, and he wouldn't do it in front of us. He would go out in the backyard and chew tobacco. Sick of wad in his mouth? Yeah. Oh, my God.

Yeah, he was a southern guy. Yeah, but it came in a pouch, not in a little brick. It's so funny. You can remember the hand exercises, but you can't remember the tip of the neck. You know why? Because I hated it and because I knew it was dangerous somehow. And also, he was somehow ashamed of it. And so he would go in the backyard. I just remember a little plastic envelope.

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was his thing. Yeah. And booze, no? He went through a little period of that. And then I think he had tremendous self-restraint. He was somebody who, you know, the doctor told him, don't do that.

Right. So he didn't. Okay, good. But the doctor should have told him do that. Right. So he didn't. Okay, good. But the doctor should have told him that about chewing tobacco. Maybe they didn't know. I don't know if they knew. Yeah. And your mom was just sort of like kept the house together.

She was this dreamy, incredible, I sometimes say it was like being raised by a fairy. She was the jundlest creature that I've ever known in the world. Her mom married a man who had older daughters and her dad died when she was quite young in a car accident. And my grandmother, I'm not sure exactly what it was, but she had to be put in some kind of a hospital far away. And so my mother was basically orphaned and, um, and somebody took her when she was six years old. They remember, or she always remembered that they put her in a horse-drawn carriage and they dropped her off at one point and they said, walk a mile down that road and there's a schoolhouse

and that's where you're going to live now with your sister. And they drove off for a six-year-old. And so she walked down the road and her older sister Lillian was teaching school there and my aunt raised my mother from that age on. And she had like, she was very childlike and yet you know that phrase, steal magnolia. My mother

did so much to make our family survive and she was heroic but she she was this um thin delicate beautiful um otherworldly like person and she was just but she would do. My sister was telling me this story that was one of the most recent before my mom died. And she's been gone about five years now. But my sister was telling me that in our church, someone came to our church that was clearly a transgender person. And had never been to the church before. Back in Arkansas? In North Little Rock. And this is when my mother was

very elderly and so my mom at this point had to use a walker and all that. So my mom looked over and saw that this gentleman, I think it was a gentleman, because I just remember that he was alone and my mother got up and used her walker and walked over and said may i sit next to you and then just sat there and there's there was no effort to try to get him to join our church or anything she just couldn't bear that he might be sitting alone and that he might feel like he wasn't welcome or

something right and um so that was when you asked me were they you know when people talk about liberals and all this stuff i we never knew those labels like nobody ever preached politics in our house it was just a question of treating other people decently yeah and and that was what i was taught but it was never i'm amazed now at the sheer ugliness of our abilities oh yeah to divide ourselves from each other the polarization yeah well i think that somehow people have gotten stranded in their living room somehow that that the amount of information they're able to take in on a daily basis on their own that connects them with other people that are like minded. But maybe in another state, there doesn't seem to be a lot of people sitting next to people in churches. Right.

Exactly. Let me sit next to you and we'll sing this hymn together. Right. It's on page 57. this hymn together. Right. It's on, you know, page 57. There's a disconnect, I think, between people. And it's scary and sad, you know. It's hard to get out, but you should. You know what I mean?

Yeah. To get out among people and to do that. Because I don't do it either, but it's kind of heartbreaking mean? Yeah. To get out among people. Yeah. And to do that, because I don't do it either, but it's all, it's just, it's kind of heartbreaking sometimes. Yeah. To see how people are so isolated

and angry and hateful. Yeah. Fame can do that too. Fame, yeah. It's one of the fears for me about the repercussions of working in our business. Celebrity.

Yeah, like it scared me to death as a young parent. I didn't want my children to not understand how people live in the world. Right, right. So I think I ran away. We moved to Ojai when my kids were really little and I've had a relationship

with Ojai for many years. With your first husband? Yeah, Malcolm McDowell. Yeah, because I was at a party. I saw him there. I think with one of your kids. Oh, with Charlie probably. Yeah, because it was up in Ojai.

It was at Jason's house. Yeah. Oh, Jason Siegel. Well, Charlie is really good friends with Jason. They made a movie together and my son's a writer director. I didn't introduce myself to Malcolm or any of, I didn't. Oh, well you should have because it's quite a treat. It seemed like it might be, but it was a little intense. I don't know what went through my head. I didn't know how to go about it really. He was just sitting there because he's a fairly striking

guy from your memory because he's just dug just dug into your memory yeah because of a couple of roles one main role clockwork sure you know and but but like i i have also seen him in other things but there's something about you know it just he's intimidating the idea of him was intimidating to me yeah he he's he's incredibly fun oh yeah and um and uh yeah if if you get the chance again don't blow it again you want to you want to say hello and he's a good dad good guy oh yeah he's he's very special he's he does everything in his own unique way he's's not, you know, he's not the father's father knows best dad. Right. He's an inspirational dad in a million different ways. And you guys get along apparently.

Oh, I love him. I will always, always love Malcolm. He's just one of the great characters in the world. It's so nice to have exes that you just without a second thought can love. Yeah. I think we worked hard we loved our kids so much and i think there was enough um there had been enough affection for each other that when we split you know i'm not saying it didn't suck and there were moments that I felt like I was going through surgery without anesthetic or something but but the overriding desire was to somehow make this a life that our kids didn't have to make terrible choices in and um and having had you know a great relationship with my dad and a great relationship with my mother, I didn't want my kids to only have one of those.

And so we just made it work. And both Malcolm and I were actors. We were capable of being ridiculous children. And somehow in that time, we did manage to behave like grownups. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So, but when did you decide to do that? Like being, what were you doing in Little Rock, North Little Rock?

What occupations did you hold before you were like, I got to get out of here? Let's see. Well, later in New York for six years, I would be a waitress. So you moved to New York. What made you do that? That seems to have taken a big leap. I knew I was an actor. I just sort of weirdly knew that that's what I was.

And reading had been incredibly important to me. And they used to make fun of me and my family because when they would say, well, we don't need to read the book. Just watch Mary read the book. Because evidently I was making a lot of faces. And I was deeply involved, you know. And so there was a moment where I just realized, you know, acting is just sort of a natural extension of reading. It's just making it more dimensional and putting myself in the middle of it. But I've been thinking about imaginary worlds a lot.

And so I went to one year of college to a really amazing school in Arkansas called Hendricks. What kind? Is it a regular college? It's a liberal arts. I didn't want the whole sorority thing. That wasn't my scene. And so this was a small liberal arts college. And it's really quite.

Still there? Yeah, it's an amazing school. And then someone there saw me in a play. The professor that directed me in the play said, have you ever thought about going to New York? And I think he probably thought maybe. What play was it? It was called The Night Thoreau Spent in Jail, about the relationship between Emerson and Thoreau,

which is kind of a cool subject. Yeah. And by the same writers as, I think, Inherit the Wind, if I remember correctly. So I think he meant go someday when you graduate from college. But I knew it was going to be tough for me to afford to keep going to college. But I knew it was going to be tough for me to afford to keep going to college. And so somehow I got it in my head that maybe I could go to this acting school in New York and I could work there and I could somehow pull this off. Which acting school? It was the neighborhood playhouse.

It was with the great Sandy Meisner, who now kids kids study that study acting study the meisner method but i got to study with him so but how did you know about him how did you get this idea in little rock that you were gonna i know so i still have the list the guy gave me a list who oh okay my professor kenneth gillum He gave me a list and I still have it. And he said, these are all the great schools in New York. And he checked one and he said, this one is the hardest one to get into but there is a great

man there named Sandy Meisner. So I ignored all of the other schools and I just applied to that one because I think there was something there. There was some sort of confidence that I was somehow going to be able to do this. And I'm not sure where that came, what that was, because I hadn't really earned that. But I don't think if you if you I think what it is, it's for people that know that they have to be something or that they are something there.

Your brain doesn't have any other options. That's exactly right. Yeah. I really didn't have a B plan. I mean, I told people a B plan. Yeah. But I never believed it. The B plan was I'm going to go learn to be a theater teacher and then come back to Arkansas and teach theater.

Yeah. And that was way less embarrassing than going. I'm going to go to New York to be an actor. Right. Because we'd never met, we didn't know actors. Like, we, you know. Why would you?

Yeah, I've been to like three plays in my life, you know, and never been to Broadway or any, I hadn't traveled, you know. Yeah.

Actors weren't real. I mean, when I tried to picture wealth, I'm not sure they are a lot of them. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Take the dagger out of my heart. That wasn't for you. I didn't say all of them, but when, like for me, somebody, we were talking about money the other day and I was saying, who are you and Ted Danson? No. No. A friend and I were talking about money, and I said, my image of wealth, and I'm not joking, was the house in the Beverly Hillbillies. Yeah.

And I used to fall asleep at night standing at the top of that staircase in my mind and dressing myself in fabulous clothes and waltzing down the staircase. And it's such a laugh if you saw my house today, like how different it is from that image. You didn't get that house? Good for you. No, I didn't get that house. So, all right, so you're going to track down Sandy Mize.

You're leaving Little Rock. You tell your parents you're going to go be, learn how to be a theater teacher, and you just go to New York for the first time? I got on a plane. I mean, it was like, yeah. And I go to New York, and I stay in this place called the East End Hotel for Women where you got a room and two meals a day for $42 a week. So you can imagine. It was indigent women who, you know, eventually probably, well, now they'd be homeless women because there isn't, I don't think there are places like this.

So it was like an SRO kind of halfway house. Yeah, and it had said, in the brochure it said, adjacent swimming pool. Well, the adjacent swimming pool was the park next to the place that had a little wading pool. It was like this deep, you know, six inches deep. But anyway, I met two other women there

and we became friends and eventually we moved into a one-bedroom apartment together. In Manhattan? In Manhattan. And, you know, I started out selling books at Doubleday Bookstore. Do you remember the Doubleday Bookstore? Just tell me where it is.

There were two bizarrely close to each other, 53rd and 5th and 57th and 5th. And I worked at the- Oh, yeah, I kind of do remember that. Yeah, it yeah a spiral staircase going up and it was like early 70s and the guys used to stand to watch anybody in miniskirts go up the stairs which is really lame but i remember i remember walter cronkite coming in and buying 250 worth of hardcover books and i was was like, holy cow, that's rich. That is rich, man.

Not like, wow, he's a reader. He really is learning things. No, because we had the Bible and we had a set of world books that my aunt had gotten for us. When you were growing up? Yeah. And that was the hardcover books in our house and and to to just blow 250 dollars on hardcover books like you don't even want to buy paperbacks so you can get more i thought that was the coolest thing the luxury the life i know i was so entranced you know and i remember ann miller who the great tap dancer, she came in at one point and bought books.

And it was a really cool job, except that you got a 33 and a third discount on your own books. So every paycheck, I had bought so many books, I had no paycheck. And so I was like, it was not going to happen. What kind of books were you buying to like theater stuff or just of course tons of theater and uh i loved biographies and around a little bit later than that uh shogun shogun came out i remember like i was a co-check girl at that point yeah and i i was a co-check at the lore. James Clavel? Yeah. And I was a Kocek at the Lorelei Dance Hall, and I would sit there reading Shogun.

You were a Kocek girl? For a while. It was so much better to waitress, because she made so much more money. Well, when did you go? How did you go find Sandy Meisner? I got accepted into this school by some freaking miracle. After you moved there?

No, no. Before I moved there. That's why I moved there. Oh, so you did a trip. I did. I flew to Dallas where there was a regional representative of this school. And I did. He didn't even ask me to audition.

He just asked me to talk to him about why I wanted to do this. Not Sandy Meisner. No, God, no. And then I was so dumb that when I went to school, I didn't even know which guy Sandy Meisner was. Like everybody that kind of popped up and spoke to us, I thought, oh, that must be him. And then finally, when I saw him, I went, oh, no, that's him. You got it? Yeah, I got it.

So that didn't happen until you moved to New York? Yeah, that was in New York in 1972. So that's like sort of peak Meisner, right? Oh, yeah. Well, I was the last class to study with Meisner before he had his larynx removed because of his throat cancer. From smoking? Yeah. So I actually, he taught after that.

He taught with the whole method. Yeah. But I remember his voice. I remember, I can hear it. I can hear it so clearly. And I can hear his challenges to me. Clearly. And I can hear his challenges to me. And, and then, and I, I'm proud to say that, you know, I think I made him proud because when I won an Oscar, I thanked him and it meant a lot to him, you know, but I also remember just blowing it so many times in front of him, like just doing such a crap job well what was it like because you know i've talked to people you know either jokingly or or smugly not me but you know like the meisner method has become this thing that a lot of actors who trained in new york are going

to do some meisner at some point they're going to do some meisner but i've not talked to anybody like i've talked to martin landau, who knew the other method people, I think Strasburg, and I can't remember who he was. I went there just as an invited observer. I went there too. And so I sat in on Strasburg sessions. Was Landau there? He's probably gone by then.

I think maybe so. Yeah. I don't recall ever seeing him do an exercise or work, but I remember, I think I remember seeing him there. So you were there like after, so the, whatever, those teachers had split up, but there was a relationship between Strasburg and Meisner still? was there. I was there because I'd graduated from the neighborhood playhouse and a friend was auditioning at the studio and asked me to be in the audition with him. Scene partner? A scene partner. And at the end of it, they said, we're interested in you doing your own audition. So I did.

And on the basis of that, they invited me to be an observer there, which was fine until one day they were all worrying about some acting problem. And in my brain, I thought, I know what Sandy would say about this. And so I raised my hand. And I had the good sense not to quote Sandy Meisner because I knew there was a rivalry.

But I did say, well, you might try this or whatever it was. And then a few minutes later, a note was passed to me. And I looked at it and said, please come into the office. And I thought, oh, God, I hope something hasn't happened. Of course, I'm worried my dad's had a heart attack, which is how I spent my life. But I go in there and, of course, they say, you're an invited observer. You're not invited to speak. Oh, really?

Yeah. And was Stroudsburg teaching? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. So I was not. So after that, I was like, I don't know. i was like i don't know i don't know fuck that and i was done with it well how did well how did meisner teach i mean like when you like

obviously like when you get there he was sort of the star of his school right you felt the power of him you definitely felt the power of him. over the years he regretted it yeah um but he i will say this um i've never learned more from a teacher than i did for him he was a true teacher he really was he and and the method that he figured out the thing that was beautiful about i mean it's very easy to pick apart or to kind of take tiny aspects of it and think you know it. But as he taught it in that school, you started to act without having your head go crazy and think about how to be brilliant in your head. Right. And the whole secret to it is that you put your attention on the other person. And the other person, you just turned your head.

You didn't pre-plan that. Right. You just turned your head when I said that because you're trying to understand what I meant. your head when you said that because you're trying to understand what i meant yeah and but actors in a scene if we're doing this scene it's very tempting to try to sculpt it or to plan it or to you know but but with sandy he forced you into a true listening and and picking up from the other person. You're in silence with silence not so much with the words as just with the moments. Every little

moment had a life of its own and that was that was what he found a way of getting you there without you being able to think about it very much. And that's the trick.

That's the goal is to not think about it. And, you know, when I do something well, I'm doing that. And the thing that's so fascinating to me still about being an actor is that it's ephemeral and elusive. And I don't have that under my belt. I just am still trying to do that. And that's what's so interesting about it. Right.

It's like I didn't, you know, if you truly have mastered your craft, well, what else is there to do? Right. Of course. Right. Of course. Right. And I think that other systems of acting probably enable you to apply craft to a point where you can feel those things. Like it seems that the two camps of engagement are something emotional and visceral and engaged, like Meisner or some of that method stuff, or then you have these other people that are sort of obsessed with movement and accent and this other process of, I guess, I don't know if it's classically trained, but I don't know.

It's interesting to me that I've always preferred the method-y kind. You know, like I can start to see, you start to see people's machine as they get older or if they're overworking it. But you don't see that with you or with some of the other people that I've grown up appreciating who come from the method area. Even somebody like Pacino, who at this age, when he puts his mind to it, can really do amazing work still. Absolutely. He really can. to it can really do amazing work still. Absolutely.

You really can. And De Niro sometimes, if he has the right part, and these are just the guys I know from reading that come from this, like De Niro can become just sort of a series of twitches and mannerisms that you're familiar with, but they're his. But like, even if you watch him in like that movie, The Intern, was that the one with- Yeah, with Anne. He was great. Yeah, he is great. He is great. So is she. if you watch him in like that movie the intern whether was that the one with yeah with ann he was great he was yeah he is great and he is great so is she and i you know something i did a movie um that is called last vegas and and and in the movie bob and i are walking down a street in um

street in um uh in las vegas and it was my first day to work with him and it's just, I thought, okay, all right. So it's not an accident that you are who you are. Oh, really? Yeah. You deserve your accolades. What made you think that? Because he's so connected and present he was he was so available to me as as the other person in that scene with him he was so listening he was so you know his bashful grin was so genuine that it totally hit me, pierced me right in the heart.

It was so alive. And that made me realize, okay, I suppose I'm so bad at car analogies, because I'll just say the car of my childhood, which is I, you know, a Cadillac, like, I did see an occasional Cadillac in North Little Rock. And it was like, okay, yeah, there's why you want to drive one of these. Well, that's, it's interesting. So what, to me is that so once you learn what you learned from Meisner and from doing the work, what stays with you? How do you build character? Once you know how to listen and show up and be present, or at least you're comfortable in that part of the job. You know, what's the other work? But it's always different. It's like music. Yeah.

It's like, how do you play, you know, an instrument with a 40-piece orchestra? And how do you play it with, you know, a heavy metal band? Right. Yeah, yeah. It's the same instrument. Sure, sure. You know, it's just always different. know a heavy metal band right yeah it's just always different and it's like um so and it depends like uh you've interviewed david mammett before right so david i did a play with david and

david prefers not to ever ever one time for one second discuss the character no i know i have a problem with him and I told him and it's just, but he's set in his ways. Okay, but let me tell you something. Yeah. I'm an actor who really actually likes

different kinds of directors. Sure. I consider that part of my craft. You did a play with him or a film? Play. Okay. And so one of the things

that happened was I was like, okay, you're my director. We're going to do this. We'll never discuss this character. We'll never talk about her once. You tell me. I mean, David would give me a note and say, why did you take that pause in the second act after such and such a line? And I said, oh, oh yeah because i had to swallow

there and david would say don't do that and he wasn't he wasn't joking there was nothing funny to him about me doing that and and as as i went on i began to realize because it's a piece of music david it's all music right and and you're just a part of it, David. It's all music. You're just a part of it. You're just playing one of the... I am, but I will tell you that maybe not on schedule opening night. Maybe it was a while after that. But there was a moment when I was doing that play

that I thought, I understand this woman better than just about anybody I'd ever played. And I'd never discussed her with my director once. And it's because something about what he was doing did work for me. But wouldn't that be the script on some level? Partly. If I had imposed my own stuff, none of which I imposed on that woman, if I consciously imposed my own stuff and characters, which sometimes is your job.

Right. I don't think I would have found her as well as if I gave over to the music of his writing. What play is it? It's called Boston Marriage. Uh-huh. And I'm pretty sure I got bad reviews on it. So FYI, if you believe just that, I don't even know because I don't read reviews, but pretty sure we all got.

But your feeling was that you knew her her better than in the end i'm not sure i did when the person that reviewed it started but um but in the end i felt really like i had kind of gone on an interesting journey yeah i he seems very set in his ways and very stubborn about them. And he's provocative. I like the guy, Mamet. But one of the things I talked to him about is about the way he sees actors and his particular school of acting, which is like, shut up and say your line.

You know, stand on your mark and do it. You know, he doesn't want to be involved with what you were saying. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. And I said to him, I said, well, yeah, that's all well and good, but you're, you have to, I don't know if that's for everybody in the sense that some people are incredibly talented

and some people, most actors who are great are on some level naturals they i believe that well perhaps but i selfishly want it all and and and i found him and that experience incredibly intriguing yeah and i do think they're you know these we are talking that all of this is about words and that can sometimes get lost with actors and when we're so busy thinking about how do i look and how how am i standing and how's my costume and you know that that in the end you are um you really there to speak the words yeah in part you know and so i don't know i i i know that that that that thing he does might be controversial but i feel really grateful i got to go there with him. Well, how far into it were you with, I mean, how many years ago was that?

I don't remember. I think it was like maybe, I'm really bad with time. It's like the only way I'm sure about time is ages of my children when they do things. But it was not, you weren't a newcomer. It was probably 10 years ago or something like that. Yeah, so relatively recently. Yeah, yeah. So you were ready to have that experience.

Oh yeah, I want every experience. I want, I'm very hungry. I mean, that's the movie I did that's about to come out. Part of the subject for me is really kind of more hunger than anything else because it's about um it's a movie called book club and it's about these four women that have been friends for a long time right and um some people will say oh it's a movie about older women talking about sex or it's older women or it's about friendship. I mean, people bring what they want to bring to it.

But to me, it was about it's about hunger and about how there is this sort of weird acceptance that when you're young, people say to you, you can do anything. Try try playing a musical instrument. Try playing a musical instrument. Try learning a foreign language. Try doing this. And then there's some point where no one says that to you. And then you don't. Worse, you don't say it to yourself. Yeah.

And you can't tell me what age that is because we've never figured out. But the movie business pretty much backs up that idea by showing you none of those people, unless there's someone's eccentric, dotty, pathetic aunt who herself is not trying anything new either. And so to me, the movie was interesting because it was about being hungry for everything. And it's you, Jane Fonda, Diane Keaton, Candice

Bergen. Yeah, that's it. And Don Johnson. And a lot of really great guys. Craig T. Nelson. Craig T. Nelson is wonderful. And Richard Dreyfuss and Ed Begley, who was in the first movie I ever did. Ed Begley plays

Candice's ex? Yes. And Dreyfuss is is candace's foray into uh online dating where does it go though is this sort of like a sexual bucket list movie like is it no it's it's it's a little bit it's a little bit about sex it's a little bit about love it's a little bit about um look first first of all, it's lightning in a bottle. Because when's the last time you went to a movie that had four women over the age of 65? And all great actresses. And so that never happens to us.

Yeah. And so the fact that you get that call and they tell you who else is in the movie. And, of course, I'm cast last. So I did hear that the three of them. you get that call and they tell you who else is in the movie and of course i'm cast last so i did hear that the three of them so i didn't even care what the movie was about just to have that experience right and then how do you did you know all of them i had met every one of them but we didn't know each other well and we hadn't worked together and some weird chemistry thing happened. And there's like text chains on my phone now. With the four of you?

Oh, yeah. Big time. Yeah, big time. That's wild. Like Jane wanted a commitment out of us, you know. To what, be friends? Yeah. That's sweet.

Yeah. Well, Jane doesn't mess around. Jane's 80. And she Jane doesn't mess around. Jane's 80. And she just doesn't screw around now. And so now you're in it. Yeah, you're in it. I mean, she made it very clear. Like her son thinks it's the funniest thing in the world how she talks about me.

But it's like you commit. And I expect that from you. I want that. But it's like you commit and I expect that from you. I want that. And she's like, you know, I did this interview with the BBC that's like two hours long about music. And I said something to Jane about it. And like two and a half hours later, like she's calling me crying because she's like found it, listened to it.

You know, she's ferociously hungry in life in a way that's really inspiring and beautiful. And that our society sort of deems almost, you know, just non-existent for people our age. We don't reflect it in movies at all. I mean, I know people are sick of isms, but ageism is the most pervasive because it doesn't matter what color or what gender you are, if you're lucky, you're going to get here. You know, if you're lucky. if you're lucky you're going to get here. You know, if you're lucky. And then it's weird that society robs you of just at a moment where you have so much to think about and talk about and learn. You're told.

And know. Yeah, and know. Yeah. Although I am amazed at how dumb I am at this age compared to what I expected. Oh. Yes. But the world keeps like moving the goalposts, you know. But I mean, but I mean, but it depends on what you think dumb is.

I mean, you do like there's a. I'm not enlightened. I'm not. I don't feel enlightened. But you have wisdom. Some. You do. You do.

I mean, are you going to give yourself credit for that? Are you of that ilk? No, no. I can give myself credit for it. But I guess I'm still bumping into, I still, you still make mistakes. You still wound people. You still, you know, you're still learning I mean that's the whole

I think that's the whole humanizing part of it is that I think I did think there was going to be me sitting cross-legged you know my palms up to the heavens and my eyes closed and I'd be very wise and I'm just not that at all

I don't know would you would you really want that at this point I mean at this point now that I'm here no that sounds awful but at one point it sounded comforting to think to think of it sure so Begley was in the first movie oh yeah I love eggs um it's a movie called going south I that. Jack Nicholson is my hero. He's the person who cast me in my first movie. He's my first leading man. Wasn't Belushi in that too? John Belushi's first movie.

He plays a Mexican, right? I loved him, yes. I remember. He was nothing but trouble, and I loved him from the minute I laid eyes on him. Yeah. I remember that movie. It was sort of like, what was the plot? So in the Civil War, so many men were killed off that if a woman wanted to marry a convict, she could save him from the gallows. This was a true law at Western. She could save him from the gallows, but she had to be responsible for him. And I had a gold mine that I needed a man to work. Of course, what a problem. A criminal is

the first choice. Yeah. And so I had this criminal, but every time he bothered me or did something I didn't like, I just threatened to call the sheriff and have him picked back up. So I had, he was my slave essentially. Jack Nicholson was.

Yeah. And he's your savior now, right? Well, he cast me in my first film. I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you without him.

Although he said I would have found some way, you know. He would have found you some way? No, I think he meant that I would have figured, yeah, I would have found some way. He would have found you some way? No, I think he meant that I would have figured, yeah, I would have figured out my career somehow, but I credit him utterly.

And how did he find you? So six years into New York, I was still a waitress. I did comedy improv with a little troupe of five people and we were the resident company at the Manhattan Theater Club. And nothing was happening. Where were you waitressing? So my first waitress job was at Noah's Ark on 65th

and 1st. Bubbles, the bartender. I remember a guy coming in and asking if he could use the phone and she pointed to it and then as he walked there she goes, pick up your feet. It's like he wasn't walking the right way for her. She was magnificent. And so, yeah, I lied.

My friend, Momo Yashima, helped me get the job and lied and said I was a waitress, that I had experience. That's how everybody starts. And the kitchen was down a flight of stairs. Oh, gosh. So freaking every time you turned in an order, you went down a flight of stairs, came back up. And every time you went to pick up your food, you had to go down. So I had blisters on blisters the first night because I wore the wrong shoes, of course. So I had blisters on blisters the first night because I wore the wrong shoes, of course.

And so Bubbles goes, at the end of the night, she goes, all right, you've got the job, but don't ever lie to me again. She knew, man. But that was, so okay. And then 76th and 2nd, none of these places are here anymore, by the way. Hudson Bay Inn, that was amazing. So that was a place that I waited on this woman for years that was a casting director. And the other waitresses always said, tell her you're an actress. And I went, no, she's here to eat dinner. She doesn't'm an you know yet another actress is waiting on you so I never did and she would come in with her brother

and it was on Wednesday nights you had a special chicken parmesan and she would it was chicken parmesan they would both order it um and she would say hold the spaghetti and her brother had a stutter so i waited for stan i would stand there for ages till he got parmesan the word parmesan out right yeah and then i'd go put in their order and every single wednesday night they stiffed me they never left me a tip because it was the special i'm doing air quotes right now special and so so then um um years later i'm i've made a couple of movies yeah i think i'm maybe i'd won my oscar on the third i mean i know i went on the third movie i think this was after that i'm gonna party at oh my god i just lost his name. Who produced, who was the big,

Alan Carr. I was at his house out in Malibu at a party. And this woman comes up to me, this lady comes up and says, Mary Steenburgen, I'm your biggest fan. I know everything you've ever done. I can quote every line. You don't have a bigger fan than me. I know every expression I feel like on your face. I just, I know you so well. And I said, Hudson Bay Inn, Wednesday nights, chicken parmesan, whole the spaghetti. And she just went totally white

and turned around and walked away because she had never looked at the waitress. Not one time had she ever looked at the waitress. And that was it? You never talked to her again? No, and I didn't say anything more. And I've never told who it was. But it's like, you know.

That's great. That's like for all you people waiting tables out there, I do look into your eyes. That's spectacular. She just walked away. Yep. Just slunk away. Oh, because she knew that she was terrible. Well, she knew two things.

One, that she'd never looked at me. Or tipped you. Or two, ever tipped me. Right. Because it was a special. Sure. Yeah. So Nicholson, so. Right. Because it was a special. Sure. Yeah. So Nicholson, so you were going to say the improv group.

So someone saw me. Actually, it was Chris Guest's mother, Jean Guest. Chris Guest, who's brilliant. His mother saw me. She and Mary Buck saw me at the Manhattan Theater Club and recommended me to a huge casting director, Juliet Taylor, who casts everything, Woody Allen stuff. And she was away having a baby, but there was this wonderful person there, Gretchen Rennell, that was casting. And I went and had a meeting. And at the end of the meeting, I was going to leave.

And something, some little something went off in my brain. And I turned around and said, are you casting anything in particular? And she said, I'm casting a movie called Going South, but I don't think I can get you in on it. I would love to, but I don't think I can. It's like well-known actresses and people who've already worked in film and stuff and and and beautiful models yeah and and so I said okay and then some bizarre thing like literally made me say I'm gonna go sit down out there and wait maybe you'll see if you could just give me a script. And she just looked at me strangely.

And I went out the door and I sat down outside. And there was this pile of scripts on the desk that said, go in south. And there was the world's most beautiful model sitting across from me waiting to go in with this script. With the script. And so that woman went in and I thought, you have just alienated the most important person that you know in all of New York in casting. You have just blown it so big time. And when that girl comes out, you need to pop your head in and say, I'm so sorry. I was so pushy and I'm sorry. And so I'm looking down, formulating my apology to her,

and I see these two feet, and I hear this voice going, are you waiting to see me? And I know the voice is Jack Nicholson. For me, I pictured he's in California, you know, in L.A. or something. But he wasn't. He was deep in the bowels of that office. And my first instinct was to not let him see this is such a female thing. I had on a really crap T-shirt that somebody had left on my table and didn't come and claim that cost $2.95 from this store called Azuma.

And I look like crap and I didn't want him to see me. And I had some idea that if I could come back the next day, I could look better. So I just kind of kept my head down. I said, no, I'm not waiting to see you. And he goes, why not? And I finally looked up at him and I said, because I don't have a script. And he goes over, picks up one of the scripts, hands it to me, and goes, okay, 10 minutes tomorrow. And I go, okay.

And I leave. And so when I come back the next day, he's told her I'm going to meet this girl. And she actually was lovely. And I go in and I start reading. She actually was lovely. And I go in and I start reading. And I remember us talking about basketball because I was a Knicks fan back then. He was a Lakers fan.

We talk about actors and basketball and stuff. And then when I felt calm, we started reading and we read through several scenes. And then he looked at me and he goes, where have you been? And we read through several scenes. And then he looked at me and he goes, where have you been? I said, well, I've been here for six years. And he goes, okay, let's read some more. And we just started reading and reading and reading. His pizza came. I stood up to leave.

He goes, no, sit down. Eat the pizza. Keep reading. and you know it was just one of these magical moments where six years of being told no and surviving and getting back up and studying with sandy and knowing how to do my homework and you know it just was my moment and and somehow i rose to that occasion and But at the end of it, he goes, now, I want to direct this film. And you know what that means, right? And I said, yeah. And, of course, that was a total lie.

I had no idea what that meant. And so I just said goodbye. And we left. I left. And it was in what is now the freaking Trump Tower. It used to be the Gulf and Western Building. Yeah. The Columbus Circle, right?

Yeah. So, I go down, and I was so glad nobody was in the elevator because I was just, like, pounding the walls and, like, you know, deep breathing and, like, quiet screaming. Did you even have an agent? I did. I had an agent. I had an agent. Okay. I had an agent.

I had an agent. And so then I thought, I started asking people, what did he mean when he said that he wanted to direct and I know what that means. And they said, well, it means he can't cast you. And I said, why? And he goes, because you're no one. You're nobody. And you have a weird last name. And you can have all these movie stars.

And so the next day, I'm at the Magic Pan, which is where I was waitressing in the end. A French, a little French creperie and a little green dirndl is what my outfit was called now in orthopedic shoes because I was no dummy and and so anyway I get this I call my answering service and it says can you please call Warren Beatty at such and such number and I had only told one person about the whole Jack thing and it was was my friend, Pamela Muller-Kerriman, that was in the comedy improv group with me. And so I knew this, that she had arranged for this joke of Warren Beatty calling me because she's very funny. And she was playing a joke on me. So in between serving crepes, I would say, funny Pam, that's funny. And she's, what?

And I said, you know, Warren Beatty, like I'm going to call the number. I know it's going to be a joke. And she goes, Mary? And I said, you know, Warren Beatty. Like, I'm going to call the number. I know this is going to be a joke. And she goes, Mary, call the freaking number. And like throughout the entire lunch service, there's this thing going between the tables. Like, please call, please call. So finally, I go to the pay phone. I put in the quarters. I call the number.

And it's the Hampshire House, I think is the name of it on central park south and then they put me through to warren baity and she's standing there going i told you i told you and um it's warren baity and he goes so my friend jack nicholson told me that if i cast you the only way i can cast you in my movie heaven can wait is if um if he doesn't use you in his movie going south so I want you to come read for from my movie tomorrow and I'm like wait the like I'm at the magic pan still in my French dirndl outfit and you want me to come read your movie. And so, and there's two movie stars like fighting over me. And so I do, I go read for him and I remember him saying, can we just read it right now? I said, but I haven't read the script

yet. And he goes, well, just, I don't want you having the script outside of this apartment, you know, because he was pretty paranoid about the script, you know, itself. And I said, I have an idea. I'm going to go to that park bench across the street. You can see me. You've got, you know, you know where I work.

You know everything you need to know. You can watch me read this script and then I I'll come back, and then I'll read for you. Because otherwise, it's like I'm reading a cult. So I went across the street and sat on a park bench, and everyone had to look up, and there was Warren Beatty in the window. And then I come back up, and I read the script for him. And then he says, I really want Julie Christie for this role, but if she doesn't do it, I'm really interested in you if you don't do going south. Then I go downstairs and I call my answering machine and they say, you're coming or service. And they say,

you're coming to Hollywood for a screen test for going south. And so I flew out all big stars. I borrowed $1,000 from my friends in Arkansas so I could stay more than one night, which they were going to pay the hotel bill. I came out. I, like, did meetings. I didn't know why everybody wanted to meet me. And I later found out Jack was behind all the meetings. You know, he opened doors for me. Oh, yeah.

And didn't sleep with him, by the way, in case you wonder. Most people do. But somehow, either, I don't know. Maybe I just, I don't know why. It never happened. But anyway, so then. Did he want to? I don't think so.

You would know. Yeah. I don't think so. Yeah, we talked about it one time. And he just said, he goes, I want people to take you seriously, you know? And that's pretty cool. Yeah. And I wouldn't have.

And I wouldn't have because I wanted to take me seriously too. And then on the day that I'd run out of my money and I had to get from the airport into Manhattan to go back to the Magic Pan, into Manhattan to go back to the Magic Pan. I'd cut it so close that I didn't have enough money to even get into the city. And so I went in to get my one night's hotel bill. I went to Paramount and Jack's in a big office. And I said, thank you so much for this unique and incredible experience.

Can I please have my one night's hotel bill in cash if you don't mind that you guys owe me? And Jack's smoking a big cigar and he goes, don't worry about it, kid. You're on the payroll. And I was cast. It's so nice that he was so decent. He was so. I mean, Mark, after this, I moved.

I went to the Chateau Marmont. I stayed in a bungalow at the Chateau Marmont and my job every day was to take a cab to Paramount to go into a screening room where I was the only person in it he would run films for me and then he would come in at the

end of the film and talk to me about why that film was important or how Catherine Hepburn did such and such or Jean Arthur, you know, worked her magic or, you know, what, what he wanted to school me in romantic comedies because he knew I knew nothing about film acting and that's what he did for me. Wow.

Yeah. Are you in touch with him still? Not a lot. Yeah. I saw him a few years ago at a screening or something, and I love it when I see him. Is he happy to see you? Yeah, I think so, and I hope so.

I hope I made him proud. And when I won the Oscar for Melvin and Howard, I talked about him more than I talked about anybody, even though it wasn't for his movie. It was for a movie with Jonathan Demme. Sure. But I talked about Jack more than I talked about anybody. And you thanked Sandy.

Because I thanked Sandy. I thanked the guy, Kenneth Gillum, that had been my professor that sent me to New York. You did? Yeah. Yeah, they're all part of it. And Jack. Big time Jack.

Yeah. And was he sitting up front? Was he in the room? God, that I don't think. I don't think he was. Not yet. Yeah. So the Jonathan Demme, so this came directly from going south?

Or how did you, like, because you did two movies with him. I mean, there was a lot of years between them. Yeah. But you did Philadelphia. No, I did. Time After Time was my second movie. And then Melvin and Howard was my third. And Jonathan was, oh, my God.

It's hard for me still to believe that Jonathan, who was such a life force, did you ever interview him? Oh, I didn't think so because I knew I'd never seen it listed, but he was a magnificent human being and an utterly creative man and a wonderful human and husband and dad and friend.

He was young too, right? Yeah. That's so sad. Yeah. Yeah. So that, but the joy of working with him was pretty, pretty cool. And a script by Bo Goldman, who's a great writer. Well, you know, that was pretty amazing.

Your third movie, you won Best Supporting Actress. In Arkansas. I actually remembered this the other day that somebody said to my mother, tell her that sometime she's probably going to win a best actress. Someday. And it was like, wow, okay. I was feeling pretty good about this. Yeah.

It's always the way there's always one of those oh my god yes the worst yeah it's just the worst it's well yeah and you've had it you've you've never stopped working you know you've done oh no i stopped working i had years that i didn't nobody remember to call oh yeah I definitely did and the weirdest thing is that when I pictured this age I'm 65 and when I pictured 65 I just thought what it'll be so sad because I love what I do so much and no one will be hiring me to do it. And what will I do with all that huge heart for it? And that's not what's happened at all. No, he's got the series with Will. I do Last Man on Earth with Will Forte. Yeah.

Yeah, which is just, and our crazy little gang over there is just the most, I love them. These funny, funny, wonderful actors. And I was always jealous of Ted, not because of the success of Cheers, but because of that he had had this posse and that he'd gotten to work with people over a long period of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I just felt like to really know people like that and work with them every day and to know all their crap and what they are going to eat and craft service when they shouldn't. And all those stupid little things that I wanted to know about people, I do know about the people on last, you know, January Jones and Kristen Schaal and Mel Rodriguez and Cleopatra Coleman.

And, you know, and sometimes now we have Jason Sudeikis and, you know, it's just really. You got a little crew. and Sudeikis and, you know, it's just really. You got a little crew. And then Will Forte is just like looking, peering every day into one of the true original minds ever. And he's just, he endlessly amuses me. He's a good, sweet guy too. Yeah.

We just, we're on vacation together in Hawaii. That's how much I love him. Oh, really? Yes. That's good much I love him. Oh, really? Yes. That's good. Yeah. And you and Ted is great. I had a great time with him.

You both seem so sweet and engaged. He's nice. He's a privilege to live with. Oh, good. And deeply funny, which is incredibly important to me. We had some good laughs when I talked to him. Hey. Oh, he did his generic greeting.

Oh, my God. Going with him to anything, I feel like I need to have body armor on because he doesn't know anyone's name ever. And he acts like he knows everybody. So then inevitably there's this hideous moment where both of them look at me and I'm supposed to clean up on all four for Ted. And so it's like, I've just said, just stick with the Hays, hon. Just stick with the Hays, hon. Just stick with Hay.

Don't fish for the name because you won't get it. You're just not getting it ever. And this, by the way, it's not like when you get older and you do this kind of crap, you think, oh, it's because I'm losing it. But he was exactly that way when I met him at 45. but he was exactly that way when I met him at 45. If anything, he's a little more with it now than he was. Yeah, sometimes you just don't pay attention. I'm terrible with the name thing, terrible.

Like I've known people decades, and I'm like, yeah, what? I just never come. Well, thank you for coming. Well, thank you for having me. I'm a fan, and I listen to you. So this is so great. I feel I feel it was good. I feel like should I feel cheated that I wasn't in the old garage? You know what?

This one's like, you know, I've talked to people longer in here. Sure. I've talked to me a long time. And I'm let me just ask you right now. Should I get home and go into deep regret about what a motor mouth I was? No, no, no. I know. No, it's great.

What I'm saying is that something's happening in this garage that is a little more focused than the last one. Like the other one, like it had such history to it. That you kept getting distracted? No, it's not distracted. I don't know what it is. There's just something. This one's cozy in a different way. Like, I had Josh Brolin in here, and we ended up like.

Oh, I love Josh. He's great. Does a great McNulty impression. Yes, he does. But, like, I'm just like, it's like there's more. Like, I'm just, for some reason, the conversations are going on. Can I just so quickly tell you one quick Josh Brolin story? Yeah, yeah.

We did, like, a TV movie thing years and years ago. And he just made me laugh so much. And he was constantly putting down the South. And we were in the South because of like Southern food and talking about fried and this and that. Yeah. And putting everything down and putting me down for how much I love Southern food, soul food, and all that stuff. And so I don't know what prompted this, but I went to the costume person, and I said, on the days that he just has a really not much of a scene,

can you have a pair of jeans that you just keep taking in incrementally a little bit every time he works? And they were like, yes! They were so into this stupid joke. And so his jeans and everyone, then I probably told everyone in this set, like, Josh is going to start complaining about how tight his clothes are, but just don't buy. So anyway, he did start whining more and more about, God, how do you guys eat down here and not get fat? I'm getting so fat. Finally, there was like the biggest evening that I said, now take him in, like a serious amount. And so she took the jeans in. the biggest evening that I said, now take him in like a serious amount. And,

and so she took the jeans in, she put him, she put him in his trailer and there's like six of us outside in the grass outside of this trailer. And we can see his silhouette inside the trailer and he's jumping up and down, trying to get these sheets. And finally the,

he throws the door open. And this painful scream for the wardrobe, wardrobe. And I said, Josh, Josh, what's the matter? And he goes, I can't have gained this much weight. And I said, put your hand in the pocket. And he goes, what? And he reflexively reached us into the pocket. And it just says,

gotcha in there. Oh, I just remembered that it was retribution for something he did to me, but that'll be another story for another day. What is that? No, it's not.

It's nowhere near as brilliant a practical joke as mine was. So you got the better story. You can ask him. Okay. Well, thank you for telling me that one. Yeah. You're lovely. It's great talking to you. Thank you. Lovely, no? How lovely was that? How lovely? Say your L's right. Mary steenbergen book club with jane fond and canis bergen diane keaton and mary's in theaters tomorrow may 18th that was a real privilege real real sweet uh talking to her

i loved it all right i'll talk to you when i get back to uh to alabama i'm going to be here for another week or so so i'll talk to you on monday uh and. And maybe I'll let you know what happened in New York. And hopefully we'll all be here. Hopefully all the volcanoes don't decide to erupt because that would be beyond coincidence. And sorry, folks, for what you're going through down there on the Big Island. I hope it settles down. I hope. I hope.

And thinking about you. All right? Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company

markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

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