WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 917 - Neal Brennan

Episode Date: May 20, 2018

Nearly seven years after doing an episode of WTF that never aired, Neal Brennan sits down with Marc for a conversation that is probably the one they should have had all those years ago. Neal and Marc talk about how the two of them have changed since then, especially in light of Neal’s recent comedy special 3 Mics, which mixed heavy personal stories with jokes. Now that they feel better about themselves and each other, Marc and Neal try to figure out what they really want next and whether they should be doing more with their lives. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gate! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What the fucking ears?

What the fuckingers? What the fuckingers? That's the same, isn't it? What the fuckingers? What the fucking ears? You know, it doesn't matter. How's it going? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF, with me, Mark Maron.

Still out of town. It's a long one. It's a long trip. I'm out doing the work. I can't be specific about the work. But as many of you know, I am in Alabama, and it's been lovely down here. I've met nothing but nice people, and that trend seems to continue. I didn't know if it would but i've met more people because we're working in different places and uh we you know that people are generous they're they're pleasant they they help out they have stories and they talk a certain way which is uh actually very um very charming yeah i i'm uh i i am i am becoming southern. Is that possible? Maybe. Maybe I'm just, you know, kissing up a little bit.

Not really. It's been a great time. By the way, Neil Brennan is on the show today. He's got a special out there that he put out a while ago called Three Mikes. But, you know, many of you who have listened to this show for a while know that Neil, this is the second time Neil's been on. Because Neil was on once before, and he didn't want me to release it. I'll explain it to you later. But we had a nice, very good conversation this time.

But there is one in the vaults that will never see the light of day. I'll try to give you a little more insight on that in a minute. So you know I'm down south. I told you guys I had to go to New York for two days but I was down here doing the doing the work for four days and I was getting a little strung out I was getting a little hot it was a little too hot out for me even though the work was going good it was just like oh god it was a little slow I'd enjoyed the four days but I had to go up to New York to do uh to do some press for glow and I flew into LaGuardia, which I don't usually do.

Usually I go to JFK because I'm flying from the West Coast. And I can't remember the last fucking time I flew into LaGuardia. But it must have been a regional flight. I remember flying there when I was in college and stuff on the shuttle. I believe I used to go into LaGuardia. But what hit me this time really was I flew in and LaGuardia doesn't look like it used to, but you do take a different flight path. And that was the airport that I flew in all the time when I was growing up in New Mexico.

And we would fly back to the East Coast to see my grandparents or see relatives or whatever. And they drive in from Jersey to pick us up. And something just hit me about that. I was flying in. You fly in from a different direction. There was something was just happening. There was a familiarity that was a little older than recent memories or even decade old memories.

I mean, these were 40, 50 year old memories sort of hit me. And I got off the plane and I walked out. And maybe it was specific to LaGuardia because LaGuardia feels like it's actually in the city somehow. But I got off and I got hit with that weird, damp, humid coolness. It wasn't hot, but it was humid. It was cool, but there's a wetness to the air. And you could just sort of smell the exhaust and the tar.

And there was just a hint of ocean to it and it's a very specific smell to New York and something just my brain just kind of exploded with some familiarity that that is as deep and old as my life on this planet and I've never been that excited in recent memory to get to New York and I don't think it had maybe had a little bit to do with being in the country for four days but there was just something sparked up in me and and the last few times I've been in New York I've not been that thrilled to be there I I know how to be there I I like being there but I'm ready to leave usually but for some reason I just got locked into a nostalgic mode or an excited mode. I stayed at a new hotel.

I actually had the moment where I'm like, could I live here? Should I move back to New York? And it sort of stuck. It sort of stuck for the three days I was there. I got there. I ran into Carly Mensch and Liz Flahive, who were also at the hotel. They're the showrunners for GLOW. Hung out with

them for a minute I met Brendan McDonald came in for lunch so touch base with Brendan we don't see each other a lot we talk to each other a lot he's not only my producer and business partner but he's a friend and you got to do so we'll have some face time with your friends get caught up and then later that night my buddy Sam Lipsight, the novelist, the writer, the bard, the professor at Columbia. Sam Lipsight and I are old friends, good friends, and I don't spend a lot of time with my good friends because they're not around. You got to spend the time. World's on fire. Things are coming to a close. Things are changing, maybe not for a better. A lot of people are dying. People are getting shot. Shit is not being solved. Things are painful.

They may feel out of your control. You do what you can, but you got to lock in with the people you love and focus and feel it because this is it. This is it. Man, it was just good. It was just good to see everybody. It was good to see the city. Felt like an old friend.

Did some press. Allison, Sadell, and I, and Liz and Carly did a panel for the TV Academy. They showed a couple episodes. We did a Q&A. That was fun. Then the last day, man, plane left a little late. Fucking, you know, went to Mogador Cafe to have the halloumi eggs. Matt Sweeney lives across the street.

Got him down there. then we caught up and then he turned yeah i haven't talked to matt in a while he's been on the show now this is the fucking thing that blew my mind all right look i know things are bad for a lot of people and i know things are scary for a lot of people but it's okay to live your life. You gotta. So I'm talking to Matt, and he tells me, I don't always know what my friends are up to, and I know Matt plays with everybody, and he's always got tales to tell about people he's playing music with,

and I knew that he went on the road with the Iggy Pop, Iggy's post-pop depression tour. Now, here's the thing. What I didn't know, I didn't know that he played bass on it, number one. He told me that they recorded last year's performance at Royal Albert Hall.

Now, the reason I'm telling you about this is that three people that had been on my podcast were in that fucking band. And they were all separate entities when I talked to them. Josh Homme from Queens of the Stone age uh matt sweeney playing bass and um and iggy pop right so i immediately like i downloaded it and on the plane i watched it and i and matt told me what i was in for in a way he said you know i said what are you playing you playing any what what songs he said we're playing that post-pop depression album but we're also doing most of Matt told me what I was in for in a way. He said, you know, I said, what are you playing? You playing any, what songs?

He said, we're playing that post-pop depression album, but we're also doing most of, if not all of The Idiot and Lust for Life. These are seminal, beautiful, perfect Iggy records where he's really using his voice and they're dark and moody and beautiful. And I was was like get the fuck out of here you're playing those you're playing those and i watched it and i it was just it was spectacular i mean because the band is so tight josh is such a like he's so on top of it it was amazing like i mean it might be the best fucking concert movie i've ever seen in my

fucking life and i you know and i've seen a lot of and i've talked a lot of like iggy was thrilled and he was in such perfect voice and he remembered like why am i saying that like he wouldn't he did he's got to be like almost 70 and he just nails everyone and the band is so fucking tight and you could just feel watching it that it was one of those nights that were never going to happen again and he looked so thrilled and it was just beautiful because he's it was one of those nights that were never going to happen again. And he looked so thrilled and it was just beautiful because he's doing his Iggy thing.

They're singing these great old songs, Lust for Life, 16, China Girl, Night Clubbing, Success. They're all there. They're all there. Those ones. The ones that if you love Iggy and you know the ones I'm talking about. But it was just great

because somehow or another he's stage diving and about like you know a quarter of the way in he's bleeding somehow he's got he's bleeding from his head and you know you you you see it and you're like oh of course I mean thank god I mean that's what he does this if if he's not bleeding from something it's not a good Iggy pop show I don't know how happened, but, and he had blood on the side of his face dripping the entire concert and he's just so thrilled. You could just tell he was having

the night of his life and watching it, I tell you, man, it's a fucking, it's just an Iggy concert, but I got choked up, man. I got choked up because I knew

that that fucking thing, that was never going to happen again. It's worth it. It's worth checking that out. By the way, I should tell you guys too, Glow, second season,

is premiering on, or dumping, it's going to all be there on June 29th. I should tell you, I didn't tell you, that the Iggy Pop live at Royal Albert Hall

post-pop depression, whatever it is, you can rent it on iTunes or buy it, but I loved it. I loved it. So let's talk about Neil Brennan for a second, can we? So Neil and I, I go way back with Neil. As some of you know, Neil is a comic.

Some of you know he's the co-creator of the Dave Chappelle show. He used to write with Dave, did some movies with him, half-baked. But I knew him as the kid brother of a comic I started with and a guy that originally started his career working the door at the Boston Comedy Club in New York. And I think that at the time we did the first interview, he thought that I was condescending, and I might have been. That, you know, when you meet somebody when they're young, you kind of hold them in that space. And I don't think I afforded him the space to be a grownup in our first interview. And I think that pissed him off. And I'll have to cop to that. I mean, I'll have to cop to that. We did it. And then we did the interview in 2011. And a few weeks after doing it, he told me to shelve it. And that he told me

because, you know, I didn't show him the respect he deserved. And I don't know if i got it for a while uh because we did we did have a big blow up after that uh but then in 2012 he was on a live wtf from vancouver and uh and we we hashed it out and you know as as i said the problem was really him thinking that i disrespected him that i didn't respect him enough and uh and then i thought that he was i initially thought he was being entitled and projecting this is here's a clip from that episode um of us you know resolving the problem the best we could at that time the truth was i didn't feel uh a respect from you and i'm not saying I deserve fucking rose petals

on my feet. That's where your head goes. Your head goes, this motherfucker. That's not... I just felt like you've had this podcast. You told me you were going to put me on it very early. And I love the podcast.

You just have guest after guest after guest. This is a different issue. No, no, no. It's the same one, though. No, but okay. But there's a whole layer of like... I'm giving you more insight. Right, okay.

But there's a whole layer of you sitting there going, when's my fucking turn? Yeah, well, you should know about, as a guy that's tried to get on television... Tried? See, he frames it. No, just listen to... I mean, listen to what he pushes out there.

This is part of the issue. I've heard you talk about club owners who wouldn't book you as quote-unquote evil cocksuckers. So I know that when you're being excluded from something, you know there's going to be a visceral reaction. So don't act like you're magnanimous. Like, well, no, they make their choices, and we're all adults here. You instantly go to heat as a fucking evil cocksucker. I try to... Wait a few minutes.

No, I know. I'm getting better at that, man. No, I know. All right, all right. So I'm fucking listening to your... Okay. Every week, I'm like, when is this fucking invite coming? Never comes.

Then we finally go on the show and it's like, yeah, you did this thing. You're kind of like throwing me scraps. The biggest. Yeah, I guess so. Was that big popular? I guess not. It was fucking insanely popular way beyond where it should be popular. If you hadn't known me as a fucking little kid little kid as like a 17 year old kid you'd have more uh like abstract respect for me

so i felt like i was i was uh i had to i had to uh somehow overcome our origins of our relationship but you were you were a dick of a kid i mean you were i mean like that like it wasn't like i was like oh there's a cute guy that I used to like so much. I mean, you were a, you know, like, Who didn't you think

was a dick, though, in the 90s? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, the list is like, it's a fucking lot of dicks

and like, three good people. And I can't even remember them, apparently. Yeah, the list is like, it's a fucking lot of dicks and like three good people. And I can't even remember them apparently. Yeah, exactly. Three good people, most of whom he married. Well, okay. I can take it. I can take it.

Out of every, I've never, I've done 250 of these fucking shows. How many of the people did you think were dicks at the beginning of the interview? Most of them. Yeah. No, I don't know. There's only a couple.icks at the beginning of the interview? Most of them. Yeah. No, I don't know. That's the arc of the show. This person is a dick. Please welcome so and so. No. Then by the end you go, you know what?

You're not a dick. And then, but you go, but next week's guy, total dick. Applause breaks. There's got to be some truth to it no they i'm taking hits for everybody that was that but this is this you know neil and i since then even have uh you know gotten closer sometimes but yeah we have a mutual respect we have a way of communicating it was right for him to set me straight for sure. And also, I do want to mention that Neil is embarking on a national stand-up tour called Here We Go with dates nationwide through the end of the year.

For ticket and venue info, go to neilbrennan.com. And also, there's a lot of conversation in this talk about Neil's Netflix special from last year, Three Mics, which you can still check out and you should. If you don't know the concept, he had three microphones set up, one he used for one-liners, one he used for regular stand-up, like a regular stand-up set, and one he uses as sort of a confessional mic, personal stuff. It's pretty brilliant. It's worth watching. And this is me and Neil Brennan. This is actually from the old garage, but it's pretty brilliant. It's worth watching. And this is me and Neil Brennan. This is actually from the old garage, but it's a great.

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in Rock City at torontorock.com. Talk. So here we are. We're back. We're back again. I already feel like our tone is better. Yeah. No, I completely agree're back again. I already feel like our tone is better. Yeah. No, I completely agree.

That's why I wanted you to eat the last one and let's redo. Let's wait a few years. Yeah, let's wait a few years. Let's both develop as people, as artists, accomplish some things that are nagging at us. Well, what did you say to me the other night? Because it was resonant, but i don't quite remember it's like i said it it's nice to see you get successful enough to do act outs on stage oh that's basically oh no no no i mean when he said about talking to you he said like i'd like you to talk to me like you made like oh right like you know as opposed to maybe whatever idea idea of me right

which is very difficult to shake right early idea of somebody is very difficult to say because you knew me as an 18 year old doorman at a comedy club i know but but i think i was thinking about it and i and i i don't i i don't necessarily think that was all of it i think that you know we both had an attitude i don't think that I necessarily was putting you there. I knew what your successes were, but you had this other side of me being the guy who knew you as a doormat. Yes, yes.

So I was paranoid. And you had something, and you were going to be like, this fucking guy. He doesn't have any respect for my journey. Fucking another dad. Another dad in the world. Another dad to which you had no generosity of spirit about because you are on the same

track and you would criticize me for dad shit. It's like, buddy. Yeah. You got the same thing. How are you shitting on me about it when you're literally we're in the same swamp well i but my like i watch your special and the difference between you know my dad and your dad is my dad was insanely needy uh it was not you know there was not a it was not a one-sided shit show yes you know it was a it was a shit show and then contrition and then sadness and then you know sucking me back in yes

just obliterating my boundaries and just absorbing my sense of self so like that's a different it's a different different narcissism yeah my dad had the the ad the uh the added bipolar thing so he was narcissistic but then he'd go completely you know into the darkness and then was it up to you to sort of rescue him or he would apply he would be he would become oh yeah i used to right i used to do a book about a bit about that about how that's how i started doing comedy my mom would say your dad's still in bed why don't you go up and do some make a laugh doing a type you're the only one that can make him laugh oh fuck oh that's cute but uh you've gotten better since i last talked to you yeah this special was uh we can start from there because you know it is a

interesting format and it's in it and it seemed to work if you balanced it but but isn't there part so you avoided the the negative parts of doing a one-man show being maudlin well just you know just that narrative where it's like i you know i don't have to be funny this is honest yeah yeah and the funny should all be resonant with the emotional journey we're taking so you were able to avoid the the weight of that yes but it's a trap to me because i don't i think it's like uh it makes the shows not that good or maybe they're good but they're not very funny it just seems like a a trick well yeah and they're not around anymore i think it was a way for people to uh to sort of showcase the whole spectrum of who they are and it's also a way for stand-ups who you know

are not succeeding or or or not you know they're out you know they've done everything they could stand up wise so now it's sort of like maybe I need to infuse more of my sadness into this so people really know me. Yes. And a lot of them were just so sort of weighty and rough. There was a period in the mid to early 90s where everyone tried their hand at it.

Yeah. I still think Colin Quinn has a resentment against me for something I said to him many years ago uh you know this would be you know even before he put me on tough crowd and stuff because we I always felt the tension but there was one time where when he was like doing his his first one-man show I was at the cellar sitting with somebody and uh you know he stopped at the table and he said he was doing this one-man show and I was like yeah you can't hack it on the road anymore huh and he and I remember he just looked at me

and like bit his knuckle and says, you don't know me well enough to say that. Yeah. And I think that was it. That was it for me and Colin, for life. Yep. Can you see that? Yeah, sometimes that's all it takes.

Just one thing, man. I know. That's your strength. That's your really, that's your gift. I can't do that. You can end it in one, it's like a game show where like i can end this relationship in one sentence give me a second let me get a little

information about you a little okay i think i'm ready yeah i guess i did do that but but when you were working on that thing so one mike's the jokes and those like that was interesting too because on that thing so one mics the jokes and those like that was interesting too because those the one-liners they're all great but you know because of the way you've evolved as a comic you couldn't you don't really do that type of joke no there were tweets basically oh really just good tweets right there were tweets and i was like i can't you know if you have an act and you're building out a hunk an area then you'll go like hey there's a one-liner you can throw in there they didn't match with anything. So it was like, I had all these excess things.

Yeah. And then I had stand up. And then I was like, and then there's also shit that if you listen to like The Moth or whatever. Right. And you go, oh, I feel like I could do that. Sure.

But you didn't feel like you could integrate it into stand up. No, no. I didn't, because I don't think the stories are uh joking enough right and i think it's too sad they're a little too sad or or slash real for a club right for a late not for me show no i think they are i think that they are sad i mean your stuff with even your dad or your tension with relationships right there's always a lightness to it. Yeah. And I wanted to not be light. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to not be light. I wanted to be like, I remember I took an acting class once and the guy was like, you have to be realer. And I was like, I will be so sad that this theater will collapse. Yeah. And he was like, try it.

And I did it. And the scene was great. And I was like, okay and i did it and i it was the scene was great and i was like okay yeah all right so i wanted to do the thing that i didn't want to show people right that's what i wanted to do i wanted to like show parts of myself that i was like these are not for public consumption what's the worst thing i can say about myself star fucker okay let me cover that let me come you know like and why am i doing that and like shit like that or depression or things that i didn't want to reveal i like, those are the things that are worth revealing because there, there's probably a reason why I don't want to. And I'd like to talk about why.

Right. And, and to, to what end for yourself or did, you know, ultimately, I mean, the special has been out a while and we're a little late on this, but it sort of lives forever on Netflix or as long as they keep it up there. But are you finding that those parts of the special where you shared family dynamics, depression, your own shortcomings, are you getting feedback along the lines of like, you know? Like people, the general feedback is,

at first I didn't want that stuff. Yeah. And by the end, I wanted it more. It was funny because the applause, like every time you go to the one-liners, they'd be like oh thank god oh fuck i know and it was like literally like and then you get to the stand-up and you're like oh fuck enough well enough with the glib yeah do something like it really was like you would get tired of the thing by the time you got to it the one thing the one hand you played was that you know you definitely

saw you know who you are as a persona you know, who you are as a persona, you know, and who you are comfortably talking about real emotional stuff. And then just, you know, the detachment, uh, from the one-liners cause the writing's good.

Right. Like, you know, like anyone could read those. Yeah. And you'll get a laugh. Probably get a laugh. Right.

Uh, well, yeah, I think that's, it's brave, but it's also, you know, like it's kind of weird that like right when you go from, yeah, I think that's, it's brave, but it's also, you know, like, it's kind of weird

that like right when you go from telling the sad stories, that also, and you know, they're touching, you know, they move me. I choked up a couple of times, but when you go. See, the way you just said that felt like I defeated you in some way. No, no. Like, yeah, they touch me, whatever. But are you going to talk to me like you do in the middle mic? No.

I've always wanted to talk to you like the middle mic, Marin. Like, I've always been ready for, I've been standing here waiting to talk to you like two people, two hurt people. Okay, so let me tell you my issue then. Why that tone, you mistake is being condescending or dismissive i guarantee you 90 of the audience who just heard that rewind it tell me that wasn't condescending but but knowing where you are and knowing now let me tell you like like what what i just told you about my father who was who was also depressive and now i know you were you were depressive. I didn't know that.

So when I feel that, which I have, I'm an empath for that shit. Yes. So when I get around people that are innately depressive, you know, I go into self-protection. There's no. Got it. Because like, it'll just sink me. It's a trigger. Yes.

So it's not even a trigger. Well, that's interesting that you didn't sense that. That you didn't sense that I was a depressive. No, I didn't. That's fucking really, that's fun. That goes to that cold, bored, superior. Well, that's what, well, that's what, that's what I always sense. And that's what the problem was.

Yeah. Is that like, if you were a little more weepy, you know, I could have, like, I don't know how you didn't cry in the fucking middle mic. I mean, what, how? I could, that was because i couldn't meaning like you couldn't because you might not stop yeah because the show would have i did it once that way and it was and it was it was hard like it's hard it's really hard to come back from crying from real from crying from real from not talking about emotion in a controlled way right yeah actually experiencing the emotion

dude i got on stage at carnegie hall and i literally had to stop for a second because i was crying just because i was opening i was on stage at carnegie hall yeah i'm sure and it and it took me an hour to get them i think yeah yeah i bet they all knew me yeah but yeah but that but i think that innately what i do is like because you know i don't want to i don't want to get choked up either too depressive together you know andives together, and I'm not willing to call myself a depressive. I don't know that I am. I don't think I am. I don't think you are.

I'm anxious. Yeah. Anxiety problems. Yeah. And I'm defensive. But I think more than condescending, it's like, okay, I can give you a compliment. It was very moving. I found myself touched.

Great. I related to it. Great. And it choked me up a little bit. And, you know, I was impressed and happy and proud of you. Thank you. Yeah, that's all I wanted. That's all I wanted really from anybody.

Well, thanks for coming by. I should get out of here. Are you valid? So where was I going with? Oh, the crying thing. So you did it a couple of times where you did it. Yeah, and you just can't even at the end of the show the when i do the cop one-liner um and then i get applause and everybody standing ovation and all that stuff and i the the interesting thing was

i would get standing ovations when i first started doing it and i would just go like i gotta get the fuck out of here and get off stage and then someone was like you have to take that standing ovation which i didn't realize like you're like you have that's not for you that's for them to talk to you which is like okay that's an interesting thing the even if you look at the i do the i'm getting a standing ovation on netflix and there's zero joy across my face because I'm still fucked up from four minutes before telling this like really heavy story. But do you find that like one of my problems is, is that, you know, from having the similarities we have is I don't, I don't, I'm not great at experiencing joy or letting. I, yeah. If at all. Right. similarities we have is i don't i don't i'm not great at experiencing joy or letting i yeah if at all right or letting love in or trusting it or you know like uh i don't know like i i've gotten

better at being open and and i can feel it and like i guess because i'm getting older that my emotions they become harder to uh to keep in and i don't know why i'm keeping it in yeah but that that's a that's a real issue. It's like, if I'm not going to do this now, biggest issue. Yeah. Right. If I'm not going to let these things happen now,

when, when, when, and because now, when I bet you can relate to the idea that you've had this, um, external success, like every,

most of your dreams or goals that you've accomplished. Yeah. Uh, and you kind of go okay so what was i getting at right what was that why am i doing all this to experience some uh to experience joy and you go well i didn't quite get it with that so i don't know if i was that queer on that were you queer on that were you because you say that in the show i've only gotten more clear with it in the last year in that I really feel like oh I'm that's a good

three mics is a good thing and I've done some good stuff in my life and career and like I don't I'm less I'm less like curious about like am I good or talented? I'm like oh I'm good and talented so now what? so now what? what am I getting at? like what do I want to experience and

now you stop hanging up um uh yeah no but for real like what do you do what do you do where do you get where do you find the uh the joy well well i i'm with you when you accomplish it externally then it becomes like oh like just it's cute like it was fun when i came in here cute again it sounds condescending but it is it's uh it's don't don't take it into condescending way you're you were smoking a cigar yeah and playing guitar that's always been my thing yeah that's i find joy in that yeah yeah like just standing in a room an adult man standing in a room by himself in a garage by himself yeah playing guitar yeah and like you're it could it was kind of resounding in the neighborhood yeah i find joy in that but here's the thing with me it's like there for me the happiness joy thing was was never uh the goal

it was relief and i really like that joke you're doing about getting married not because of you just wanted to be okay i really love that joke oh yeah yeah fucking such a great joke yeah it was uh now i don't remember the joke it's just is it like you didn't want okay i didn't want kids i just wanted to be okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah like that's a real i think that's a a real force for a lot of people i think that's a the reason why most people do most things yeah is because they want to feel like oh i'm in the pack and i'm not abnormal in any way right and please i'm okay right i'm okay i'm okay well i'm doing another joke now where that thing i'm saying about how people, maybe some

of you came to this show and said, that should be fun. That'll be fun. I've never said that. I've never ever said that. I wouldn't even think it. Never out of my mouth. My version of that is like, where is it? Yep.

That's correct. What do I have to do? I don't want it. I was just in Chile and they were like, I was in Santiago, Chile shooting something. They were like, let's go to valprezzo and i was like no no i don't want to fucking do anything let me just get let me just stay safe in my little corner i have my little thing that i do and i'll just do that i'm trying to do take this to everywhere to chile to tokyo you know what i mean like i just want to feel like your box

you're like you're like a cat i mean i'll go out a little bit but but it's i'm not look but you have a good time when you go out it depends but most things i don't i don't i don't like most things which i think may be a comedian thing like most things just don't work on me i don't like it when there's a lot of people involved expecting me to like it. Like I don't like showing up where it's like, Hey, we're all going. It's like,

Oh yeah. And then I got to react to your reaction. Like, like if I decide, like a lot of times if I go with my girlfriend or I decide to go see jazz or whatever, finally go, let's just,

well, I got money. Let's buy a ticket to the thing that people like. Yep. And I'll like it. Yeah. I'm like, why, why don just, I got money. Let's buy a ticket to the thing that people like. Yeah. And I like it. Yeah. I'm like, why don't I do this more often? Yes.

And then I won't do it for another year. Yeah. I have a few things like that. Yeah. Yeah. But it's just the idea of transition. It's like when you travel, that sort of converging on getting to the plane. All that.

Yeah. And the way you build it up in your head is this nightmare. then you if you read check read it takes eight minutes yeah yeah and then once you're there you're like okay i know how to do this yeah this is fine the fuck is wrong with me yeah why why did i imagine everything is worse in theory than it is in practice but i noticed with you and i don't know about me but like i noticed like you do this like i do this thing because i have a you know body dysmorphia and uh, like, I'm always, you know, poking at my fat. Like, feeling, like, the density of it. Yeah.

And I notice you poking at yours, too. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I have love handles. Okay. That I find infuriating. So, you have it, too. I guess it's the word.

Because I'm really skinny. Yeah. And all, I weigh 150 pounds. Yeah, it's just. And I still have love handles. It's just skin, dude. Doesn't anyone tell you that? Haven't you had a girl tell you that it's just skin yeah but it's aggravating

that all I would have to get to like 138 pounds to not have love handles and even then and then what Neil so you get rid of the love handles and then that's where I am with everything now like okay you wanted to do a good special and then what you wanted to do

what you and then like what are you what am i getting at how old are you 44 so i have 10 years on you yeah well sometimes you don't like you know not to speak like some elder but like yeah but sometimes i think that what you did with the three mics and because i know i realized like this is going to be all the specials now with him with the three you know like there was part of me that thought like is that is this going to be all the specials now with him, the three? You know, like, there was part of me that thought, like, is this going to be the approach? But no, I think that the attempt was for you to become whole. Mm-hmm.

Right? Yeah. So an integrated being. So you were able to separate these three things, and I think the ritual of that will eventually manifest itself, that you will, you know, eventually feel more comfortable speaking openly about things that are, that cause real pain for you. And that you'll probably be able to integrate more of that into your regular act.

And that, you know, that, you know, the one-liners are always going to be what they're going to be. But I saw it as a ritualized attempt for you to sort of own your whole being. Yeah. I also think it's a ritual. Yes, it is a ritual. It also is no accident that it's the most successful thing i've done is it by yeah i mean i mean chebelja but i did it with dave so like the most successful thing i've done by myself by a factor a huge oh in terms of executing execution uh and uh the way it was received yeah um and and that's the so

the interesting thing was it made me uh it was more about feeling the the bad news was i the acceptance from the outside made me feel good yeah you know which is not bad news yeah i know but it's like uh success won't make you happy and all that stuff and it's like well it's kind of good but see what something like that though something that you have ownership of like the one thing i noticed about in in where i i'm sort of you know uh splitting off from you on this sort of what next thing is that the one thing i noticed about doing this thing on my own terms and then everything i've gotten since this yeah has been on my own terms is that it whatever the whole was you know there there's the whole but then there's also the the the real issue of self-esteem so so the whole you know you reckon with that however you're

going to reckon with it you know you know compulsion whatever but self-esteem is achievable by doing esteemable acts and also by taking ownership of your thing of yourself so the one thing that did happen was that you know i i'm i'm better a lot better in my skin yeah like the the deeper stuff the body dysmorphia and eating disorders and like whatever parental stuff but in terms of i don't know that i ever you know i i think i i'm somewhat like you but i didn't have the level of the success you did to get validation but I really think that like what I started to feel was like I feel okay with myself I think you had I think this is a very successful thing yeah I think the thing I

think you've had more success to get validation than I have really personally yeah because I don't Chappelle show Dave got all the points on that right but you you made a lot of money and you had the immediate result like this is only successful because i do what you did with three mics yeah you know every day every week yeah but like a great way right so i spread myself out and made made myself wholly available for the most part yes you used more of yourself right and that's and that thing of like that i've never heard that the idea that you can get self-esteem by doing esteemable things then it becomes why is it esteemable in our cases it's because we made integrated pieces of art right yeah and we

worked hard and we you know our talents landed somewhere yeah you know that like you know has an effect you know it affects people's lives yeah in a good way it affects the way people look at you which affects you i mean and i do find that a little not disappointing is the wrong word but it is it feels uh it feels like capitalist or a little you know what i mean if it's like that direct and effective like oh people are nicer to you yeah because you did a podcast yeah now everyone treats you differently is a bit yeah it's a bit of a disappointment in human nature like i wish i could have gotten that just for being a person yeah but no but like i don't like i they treat me differently but it's more familiar it's not they're not treating me nicer like you know now you know certain people

who have the relationship with me because that i talk to them twice a week now out in the world they're like marin you're right yeah but that's better than indifference oh yeah sure it's never indifference for sure sure i'm sure it's always there's a kindness yeah and also showing up and listening to people and having to sort of train myself and empathetic listening yeah just by nature you know in here you're a very good interviewer you're right you've done some interviews where i was like boy oh boy that's a fucking really good observation and a really good insight into that person that they probably never heard before or things that i've never heard explained in the way you've explained yeah it's

all it's all flying by the seat of my pants through it you know experience and whatever but like the one thing that like i i think also that you and i i i don't know that you you know you like because of what you come from uh you know you're you're a little tight right a little go on control freak yeah which you'd never liked you never liked that about me which again again, why does that bother you that I like control? I'm from chaos. So why wouldn't I want to be a director and have things just how I like them? I'm not judging your choices in life. No, but there's always been a little something about, again, Mark, you can take the processor, the Marin processor, the microscope.

You can point it at people. You can deduce things that I'm a control freak. And you would judge me for it with no generosity. I'm like, well, I wonder why that is. I know exactly why it is. We talked about it. I know the ACOA issues. But I know what it is.

But for me, I think it's because what it is but like for me they're they're like I think it's because what is it and it's not just you like in the one thing that made me happy about the special is that you were able to sort of as much as you could in a public forum you know let go a little bit you know like in terms of like when you're talking about where you come from right there were most like that's what the issue with me is like I don't know why why he didn't cry there was part of me sort of like why is he squared out a few of this kid you know this 44 year old kid yeah because uh i don't know yeah but that's the thing is i i also like writing yeah i know do you know what i mean like i like saying things i like writing things the way they're supposed i like uh precision like my favorite comedians are all pretty precise yeah you know what i mean like i

respect that except for like listed on your wiki page is one of your uh dave just cow is one of your that's very funny i think just cow is fucking did you put that in there i didn't put that in but i didn't have nothing to do with it. It said influences. You were like, four influences. No, I have, because I used to, when I was in high school, I'd go to New York and hang out with Kevin, my brother, Dave Attell, Mike Royce, and Dave JustGal. Right.

And this is in the 80s, and JustGal was fucking funnier than all those guys. Yeah. JustGal was really funny. I guess because, like, what it is, what you're feeling again is really, it's just our personalities. It not being me being judgmental is i'm kind of messy and and you're not messy and there's part of me that's sort of like why doesn't he get messy like when you're on stage

it's like he's so like you know organized everything's precise it's like i want to see him fucking lose it i do well i mean there's times where i do crowd work and i'll shit on i mean like i can do that but i i also am not my version of wanting you to have joy yeah but that's your version of joy uh you know what i mean because that's again there's plenty of times where like the other night i've said some really funny shit off the cuff on stage oh good it was fun yeah good i'll get you tape uh like it was fun but it wasn't more fun than writing a great joke no i'm saying it correctly well and also i think there's envy on my part because i don't have i don't know if it's discipline my process is my process and it's it doesn't involve like a joke for me will evolve over six months like you don't see but i would counter that because there are guys like you who go like

i don't write anything down i just go up there and feel i'm like you do it the same way every night whether you realize or not you're doing it and i'm not saying that in a way of like dismissive but i've heard guys talk about like yeah i just go up there and feel it so i don't say it the same way i'm like you always say the joke the same way yeah that's but that's my process right until i get but sometimes i'm i'm like i'm tagless oh joke the same way. Well, yeah, but that's my process, right, until I get, but sometimes I'm tagless. Oh, yeah. So when you go up there and when he wrote it out, you're like, this is going to start here and it's going to end there. Yeah.

Like, you know, I'm like, it'll start here and I don't really know what's over here. Yeah. But I know it's funny enough in the middle. Yeah. To hold its own. Yeah. And I'll wait till the thing happens at the end. Yes. enough in the middle yeah to hold its own yeah and i'll wait till the thing happens at the end yes i almost feel like there's a not a danger and there is a danger in that in that like it's also i don't want to feel like uh that part of the show is shitty yeah no no like because i

don't i know because i'd rather get to i want it to be good and then i'll add tags to the good thing right instead of like let's see what happens because i don't i'm not charismatic enough performer to go like i'll fucking go up there and let them drink in the persona a little bit it's like no like these things have to work in on paper well there you go so that's the difference so there you go that's just the way you are you don't think you're charismatic enough to wing it that's what i found a lot recently is people are i've directed a few and worked on a few specials of other people yeah people are really afraid of bombing and getting heckled uh-huh like people that you wouldn't believe are like really afraid of some people can't handle it yeah like they just are they don't even want a moment of silence

really yeah like people that are really like i don't like no i don't like that and i don't even like looking down what does that tell you that people have uh people are paranoid and they're defensive and they have they have the worst they think that the worst will happen but i i i can relate to it because there is part of me that's like no every fucking screw should be tight oh yeah because you every on a day-to-day basis when you're growing up, you didn't know what was going to happen. No, you had no idea. You'd get heckled at any time. You didn't know where it was going to come from. With these hands.

Brothers or dad. Yeah, you didn't know who was, where it was going to come from. The sky, below, above. You didn't know. Because like I try to do that, but like there's something about my nature where it's like on, more later,

I literally got, I had to deal with something when I walked out on stage, there was a woman who was talking to me. She was drunk. And it was like, right when they brought me out, that's is, are you happy that happened?

I left it in. Yeah. But was it like, were you, did you, had you forgotten about it 20 minutes later? Meaning like when you did, was it like, were you, did you, had you forgotten about it 20 minutes later? Meaning like when you did, was it like.

I find that I, I like things like, I like things that are undeniably, you know, in the moment that, you know, cause like a lot of us pretend like we're making shit up, but when something really happens in the moment and there's a reaction to it, even if it doesn't involve somebody else, I'm, I'm so thrilled that, you know, that I'm that present. Right. You know, and that, you know, it was witnessed and that it happened. Like a lot of times after doing an hour, I'll walk up. I have one line right now in my new stuff that I can't wait to do. And I don't even know if, you know, it's just like I'm excited about one piece, one line.

Yeah. And but like a lot of times when I write the way I write, because I think it's part of why I do it the way I do it, is to make sure that I'm engaged and alive and I'm not just running for laughs, that I'm having an active conversation with me in them and through the audience. Yeah.

Well, that's a different... There's a part of me that wonders not like what's the value of that but it is the it's nourishing for me yeah the soul thing yeah do you know what i mean like even if nobody ever sees it even if one door guy comes up and goes you did a thing the other night and i'm like oh yeah okay yeah yeah no i'm with yeah i just i again it's because i like crave uh control i guess no i don't what i that i i again but i do enjoy like a crowd work thing or something i've never said before that just comes to me that's fucking super satisfying but i also i guess i don't uh pursue it but if you go back you know like this idea this idea, like I, you know, like the, the only thing

with my nature is with control freaks is that I do have an innate desire to bully them. And, and, and, and such a weird instinct and, and just, well, I just want to see them lose it a little bit. You know, like, I don't know why. Cause then I, then I can connect with you. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, okay, you got your shit tight and it's together, but I want to see what's in there.

If I don't feel like I'm connecting because someone has healthy boundaries. Oh, yeah, yeah, that old thing. Yeah, I'm going to keep poking until I wake up whatever monster. Oh, yeah, because I see you do that on Twitter sometimes. I'm like, what is he doing? Where you'll just go and pick a fight with Patton or something. I'm like what it what are you getting out of it yeah no no but I it yeah that to me is like why bring that sort of that

just immediately fills me with like bad chemicals that I don't want it just makes me feel like oh that would stress me out so bad I never won when I did that I never won when I did it just stresses me out so badly and that's the thing that you would the party the worst party likes to pursue yeah the conflict of of of like starting you know drama of some kind or shit you know what i mean like i'm not sure why i do it you know but but there's certain types of people where like their their control thing is just so like like i don't have access right and i want it for whatever reason i you know i want to connect with them or you know i want them to see me is probably what it is i want

you to fucking register this yeah so i'm gonna upset you well and that must be the how has that manifested itself in relationships with women um well that well that that whole thing that becomes more like if i can back in the day where i'm not in that now, but where if I met somebody who was equally, you know, afraid of intimacy, but very drama ridden that we, you would cause things to cause problems to avoid just like opening your heart and being there. Yeah. If you're constantly in contrition or drama you know it feels like intimacy when you're crying and apologizing it's hard to get yeah and it's also hard to get out of that it's hard to get out of it but it is exhausting for one person will eventually i'm out yeah oh yeah but i'm yeah eventually you get out of it i'm saying it's hard to train your

body oh no to not do that. That's not a relationship. Oh, I'm doing it now. And I bet you fight boredom. It's not so much boredom. It's like, it's more of a sort of like, you want to put it on the other person, but it's not them. It's you. It's not boredom. It's more of a sort of like, what is the feeling?

It's more tension. You know, I don't feel like, I feel not bored, but kind of like, I know I got to step up to this. Like, I know it's a matter of unlocking something in me. Do you know what I mean? But then what happens is like, do I want to unlock it with this person? Do I want to unlock it at all? That's the thing that I like. That other joke that you've been doing that I like, which is the thing about dying alone.

Oh, yeah. Of like the great fear of dying alone. And you're like, what's the, so what? How is a nurse? Yeah. And maybe it's better than with your family and all that stuff. Right, right. it's better yeah yeah than with your family and all that stuff right and that's the thing of like it's people acting from a place of like i don't want to do anything abnormal i want to feel okay

the thing that everyone does is you die with somebody and it's like but you die with a love by the way 50 of people don't die with their loved one they die in the you know at work yeah or yeah exactly yeah or the other person dies before them. So that doesn't work. But I think the thing that we share is this fucking horrendous fear and distrust of loving and being loved. Right?

So why would you want to have someone around when you're at your least controlled? When you have no control and you're just so vulnerable and so needy, why would you want that to be witnessed? I don't even know what the thing you're talking about, the I'm afraid of love or being loved.

I don't know. I don't even know what you're talking about. If that makes sense. I don't know. If somebody said, Neil, you're afraid of love and being loved. I'm like, no, I'm what I think I'm doing. I think I'm looking for a connection with somebody that I like. I just like being with them more than I like being by myself.

And I've had that for periods with people. And then it something happens and it evaporates. I'm looking for that long term so the idea of like loving someone or not being loving or being tender i i am tender i am like i can also be super fucking cold and dismissive but i can also be tender and loving and there for someone present and listening and all that stuff so i don't know but i have gotten the point with my therapist recently where i'm like hey what if love what if a love relationship isn't the goal of my life because i've spent most of my therapy going like i gotta be a better boyfriend lover i love that moment

therapy where you're like maybe it's not gonna happen yeah it's really like well why is that the this is all theoretical anyway. I, I, I have asked the same question and what, what, what is the benefit of me trusting somebody? Yeah. How much better is my life going to get?

Like, like again, what is it? It's even, where do, where do I get out of this? Showing my vulnerability to somebody I'm in a relationship with yes yes but there's also the thing of like there is a cost to being in a relationship which is uh compromise and uh

some level of like doing shit you don't want to do and uh and and what's the benefit but that's my point is that you know in your special that, you know, in your special, you said, you know, that doing service is supposed to, you know, get you some good feelings. Yeah. But that's the same thing, is that, you know, in the sense that, you know, showing up for somebody else, you know, in an open way, in an empathetic way, and being supportive and loving, you know, or, you know, or doing it selflessly, you know, is supposed to feel good. And you know, it has a history

of making people feel better. But you know, historically, yeah. And but when you say in your special, like my, you know, like I don't, my parents were not nurturing, they were self-involved, needy people, fine. They did not know how to love.

They would not have said what your father said, which is gnarly. Yeah. But my mother did say to me, you know, when you were a baby, I just didn't know how to love you. And I'm like, all right, well, there's the puzzle piece I was missing. There's a big one, yeah. Right. So I get that. And then, so what do I have for wiring?

Yes. If I was not trained in nurturing and I was not trained in being loved by people who were capable of it yes how and yet they said they loved me so whatever was coming at me which was was like completely some it was manipulative probably not love manipulative and fear inducing yeah that's what love what love is. I'm like, you know, so, so knowing that that wasn't it. So all of a sudden I know that I'm a guy that,

you know, was not given love. It was something else. And that, you know, I don't trust it. And, and then I don't really,

I'm not completely sure how to do it. Even with my cats, I'm a little hard on them. Yeah. That my dog, when I go out of town, yeah. The woman, Sarah, who takes care that my dog when i go out of town yeah my the woman sarah who takes care of my dog

gives my dog a better life than i give him yeah she just there's it's like she's the fun mom she's the fun grandma right and like can't let's meet her food just shit that i'm like no man yeah we don't do that yeah um the so yeah there are times where I wonder, are you, am I, in terms of getting to this, being this loving person, are we just spitting in the wind? Or is it too far a distance to travel in the time? We have left. Let's say we have left. Even if we started at 15, is there from 15 to 90 is that enough time to get to this this this uh hypothetical place because i don't know that many people that

are in relationship romantic relationships that i envy you know what i mean there aren't that many relationships and i'm like yeah i want that yeah but the weird thing about that, I agree with you, but a lot of times, like, as I get older, I realize, like, I don't know what their life is when they're alone. You know, I know what that guy's telling me. Yeah. I know what they do in public, but like, I don't know what that, you know, if they're crying or I don't know what they're doing. You're talking about the good ones could be bad and the bad ones could be good.

Or you think that they're mostly bad and the good ones. No, I just think that we don't know. And what we talk about with our friends is blowing off steam a lot of times yeah and you know like you know how people act with each other you know what you know when you when you're talking to a guy's like oh yeah and then they're like that forever you know that you might just be the valve and he goes home and he feels great yeah you know and then like he needs you to you know hear that shit so i can't judge but my question is that what i feel now and what we're talking about is that like i know what it's going to take you know i know i know what needs to be unlocked and i know there's probably a process

to do it now what the real question is do i want to do the work i because we don't know i know we don't know what's on the other side process is freudian maybe maybe okay i think it's like it's completely i think you can track it i don't you i don't think you need freud i think you know what i just said about my parents you could say about whatever you were brought up with and and and the truth is is we've survived and we somehow came out with you know over time a sense of self that functions and that we can be comfortable with but we're emotionally hobbled because of like very you know cognitive things yeah it's right there yeah yeah i don't need to speculate so like i have to do all this work like that like i've got a fucking you know

seven-year-old in me that is pretty you know know, obstinate and, you know, doesn't trust grownups. And that's what's driving me emotionally. How much have you changed as an adult? Give yourself a percentage wise. In terms of what? From the age of 25 to now. Just in terms of like my personality. like my personality i would say the most i see people change in a life is uh i find people in 12 step groups maybe change 15 to 20 percent yeah and the most that's like fucking people that go to

meetings and work well that's because you you take out this horrible thing this this monster that you were possessed by yeah so that that's 10 right right but it's still like a and this is an everyday thing yeah you can maybe alter yourself 15 i think that with age and with experience whether you acknowledge it or not and with the sort of like natural kind of you know slowly not giving a fuck about things that used to really drive your life that certain change happens i think there's a core thing that, that might not change, but I know that, you know, that once I, I arced out on sort of bitterness and hostility and, and hurting myself and, and sort of being self-pitying that, you know, I was able to give back to something to, to, to start back where I did enjoy watching people and getting laughs

and listening to people like, you know, like my heart. You've gotten a lot more generous spirit in the last five years. Right. Yeah, that happened. And I think that was a return to something that, you know, I stopped when I was, you know, maybe, you know, in college, you know, when I started getting my heart broken and started getting, you know, the shit started coming down a little bit.

I think I just locked in and I was like, fuck you. Fuck this. Yeah. That's what I wonder about with this love, this unlocking the love thing. Also, do you think that we might risk our, do you really want that kind of potential peace? Because it seems to be a choice. Here's the thing the thing i was gonna say is the with the the people that are in good relationships that i know yeah it's you can tell before because they're they're kind of happy-go-lucky people yeah you and i are not happy-go-lucky

you and i know i know cranks yeah and then people like, you guys are all comedians. Don't you have fun? I'm like, no. Mostly what me and my friends do is we call each other and fucking I go crank and then they go crank back. Yeah. And that's what we've been doing for fucking 20 years. And like, maybe that's what my life is. And there's a part of me that thinks that this dream of becoming a quote-unquote integrated person that's capable of love and being loved is a bit like may i'm gonna be a pitcher in

the major league baseball league really yeah there's part of me that's like i don't think it's possible like i don't think i can get or maybe i could get there from here but maybe not and maybe it's a waste of time well i think maybe not like yeah it might not happen but i what what is a waste of time you do is there is there like some steps that you know about the has been laid out to you you know i mean my therapist sort of kind of implied that there's a thing that i that if i came more often and we could do this thing but i'm kind of like i don't i don't know man i don't know i'm looking for i'm really looking for like some sort of magic bullet yeah uh in terms of that stuff and i don't think it exists yeah

but fuck yeah it would be nice to feel like some to just be it's like that line that that uh jason alexander says in seinfeld like i just want to be normal yeah why can't it be normal i don't know that anybody is really yeah and i don't know that we really want that yeah yeah really i mean you know yeah i and how do you how do you balance the crank that generates jokes and how would you do that and be this peaceful, happy person? Which speaks to the thing earlier of experiencing real joy. Well, to me, it comes down to a strange boundary thing. Because I think that the way you grew up in in your thing was you know you had to put you put armor on whereas like you know I just was a sponge for garbage you know like and I it

all permeated and in my neediness you know just new new bat knows no bounds innately so I had to start you know slowly understanding you know for myself what boundaries are and honoring them in others and try to have them for myself. That was something I had to learn. Do you respect people's boundaries now? You don't feel the need to fuck up their hair? No, I don't. When I'm in the process of

creating new jokes and stuff, lately I've been a little snippy. I've been saying some shit about people. I have a little old Maron behavior, but I know it's happening. I'll take a little snippy. I've been saying some shit about people, you know, like I have a little old Marin behavior, but I know it's happening. Like, you know, I'll take a shot at somebody and be like, I don't, I'm sorry. That was, you know, or I'll talk shit about somebody, you know, to somebody else. I'm like, what am I doing?

It's unnecessary. And that comes from just a, you know, the, the insecurity of creativity. I'm smoking cigars. I'm going a little nuts. I'm trying to get some new jokes together. So there's an innate thing that happens when I need to create. Right. I got to start hating on myself about something in a bigger way for me to get to where I need to get to the truth of whatever that is.

thing it's like the the thing with other people or with a relationship is like if i'm open you know and i'm feeling good about myself as soon as someone walks in the room i'm like exhausted do you know i'm sort of like now i gotta now i gotta deal with this even if it's just hey how's it going i'm like you take on their energy or you take on their whole right at some part of that right their whole life force. Yeah, I think that's a standard codependent problem. But like, you know, I'm okay by myself. I'll nap a little more. I'll probably jerk off, you know, during the day, you know.

Great, great. Glad, good to hear. But, you know, but then there's that thing. It's sort of like, no one gets to live like this. And I'm like, is this a prize? Did I win? You know? Yeah, no, absolutely. there's that thing it's sort of like no one gets to live like this and i'm like is this a prize did i win you know yeah no absolutely yeah there are times where i go like boy how much better could this be going you know what i mean where i'm like fucking like like cranking in my head right and i'm like what do you what could have what okay right so there are guys that are funnier

than you yeah yeah yeah okay yeah so what are you gonna so what so what are you gonna fucking just harp on that all day so your life is ruined because chapelle and rock are better comics than you i'm like what what are the odds you still do that way less way less because it's just like yeah so what i'm not gonna let that ruin my life my my thing more is like with you like you know i'm doing this bit that i've had around for a while and i kind of chip away at it and then you have a line i'm like no fuck yeah that was the line that he neil got the line yeah god damn it yeah there that would have made my joke five years ago so much better someone will just beat you to the

you know whatever it is that what the line is like guys think that a porn is just going to break out at any time yeah everywhere they go a porn but that's that beat where you like you're in a hotel room and there's a knock on the door you're like here we go here we go here it is you knew it was that you knew i figured it would come to it at some point that really is the fucking level of stupidity in guys but it's like a hotel room thing too when you're out there you're like yeah when you're in it when you're visiting a town yeah like they know like you go into these fucking like comfort inns and there's just weird work people there yeah who are doing like things at work and you're just looking around like this

is a swinger scene yeah absolutely that fucking absolutely after 1 a.m yeah this is gonna go everyone's gonna be fucking and sucking each other it's gonna be wild and it's never that i've yet to see that never never i've never opened a door in hollywood and seen some weird nope eyes wide shut thing nope far more human it is yeah definitely so all right so when you go back at like what have you like when you talk about your dad have you reconciled this shit i mean like do you like i don't know what you're doing i gotta say i think i i i think about my dad uh actively very little meaning like it whether it's resolved or not if you there's something pretty clear about hey i don't think you love me and then person going yep you are correct you just go oh this is very clarifying and i don't have to be curious or wonder or question myself or go like but he did

love me and it's my the fault lies with me because i didn't integrate no i didn't get it yeah so it's it's uh it's really it was kind of weirdly i think how freeing yeah yeah it's the same thing when my mother told me that thing yeah yeah that yeah i didn't know how to love you as a baby it is sort of like it's horrible but you're like oh that explains it yeah it's like when someone you find out the reason you got fired or something or the reason why someone breaks up with you yeah the moment they go because when you came out of the bathroom i was like i'm never fucking that person or whatever like but it's more deep than that because it's sort of like oh this is why i am who i am yes yes it's the in some ways three mics is like my origin story it's like my emotional origin story definitely is comedic

origin story of like this is how it all this is who i am you know but i can't imagine just being the 10th i don't understand because like like because i always like i'm i'm not it's not naive but i i realize that i'm wrong when i talk to people in here and just be like so you get along with your siblings it's like what yeah i mean like i mean i've got one and you know we were okay yeah you know but i don't talk to him all the time but having 10 and this idea that i'm just gonna be like yeah you all good yeah it's the yes with the amount of stuff that happens in families. And there's like, what's the age difference between you and the oldest?

16 years. Yeah. So the amount of, so my mom had 10 kids in 16 years. Was your mom good to you? Yeah, my mom, like the thing of like, I did my best. My mom actually kind of did do her best. Like she doesn't have the deepest well to draw from. Right.

But she, she truly like, make it. She hustles. Because, like, I know two of your brothers, and I knew them when they were younger. I mean, I didn't know them, but I got a sense of who they were. So, like, you know, Kevin, who's a comic, you know, was just irascibly angry. Yeah. And just compressed and, quite honestly, a little frightening. Like, difficult to talk to yeah and danny was like you know completely kind of like no kind of just sort of like like when i knew him at the at the strip when he was a bartender he just he seemed like

different than both of you two yeah but just sort of like you know kind of you know maybe not as smart and uh but but you know sort of open in a way. Yeah. Kind of like seemed to have a pretty good ability to enjoy life. Yeah, like not. Burdened. Yeah, not prejudiced. Yeah. By his own, like he didn't, he wouldn't make assumptions. Yeah.

Is that still the case? I don't know. Because I don't see him. You don't talk to him? No. On purpose? Not like, I'm not mad. It's just like, eh, we don't see him you don't talk to him no i'm not like not like i'm not mad it's just like we don't have to they're those guys are mad at me which is you know oh they are yeah okay so but

like but just the idea of being the 10th kid i mean they're like when i've talked to other people like that there's almost no attention paid to you i mean i was a bit of the mascot though i was like a little wise beyond my years yeah like cute neil tag but put a button on this yeah like i was uh i you know yeah so i was like i was pretty uh you're like engaging oh yeah everyone the ones that were around were having a good time with you yeah right yeah they were all my brothers and sisters were great yeah growing up yeah they were fucking really all to a person really good older brother and your parents were together yeah until probably the two years after i moved out three years after i moved out oh yeah then they became then they realized this smoke cleared and they were like oh fuck, fuck. All the kids were gone. They were like, oh, we were holding on for nothing.

They were holding on for you guys. Yeah, but. Whatever that means. Yeah, so I was sure what a bad relationship looked like. But what did your dad do? He was a tax attorney. Oh. Like a corporate tax attorney, yeah.

And a drunk. Not like a stumbling drunk. Just like three drinks, four drinks every night when he got home. Turned into a different person. Transform into a bully. Yeah. And thought he was like, he said like James Cagney was like a guy that he really admired. Right. James Cagney. A character he played. Yesagney character yeah yeah yeah in movies which is like

okay okay man james cagney okay but you're you're like stuck at home the longest with him like at that point like yeah because he retired and i was just like face to face with this fucking so you had no buffers or fewer buffers yeah and fewer people around so by like really get up close with my parents so right so like as the day went on yes smaller house more it was just more uh it was close-up magic as it were it was do you know what i mean like it was like black prostitutation like there was very yeah it was a it wasn't a table of 10 it was a table of like four yeah or a table of 12 it wasn't and he could drink during the day at that point yes thankfully his schedule opened up so yeah he could drink during the day and he would like

put you know vodka in seven up cans that kind of thing uh yeah yeah so you just you just never knew what was gonna happen yeah and just like what do you and yeah you're lucky that you didn't turn out a drunk yeah i have no one in my family's really a drunk i think we all were like nah that's amazing i know it really is because usually somebody is we have other we're all not all i shouldn't say all but many of us have pretty severe anger issues. Right. But no drunks. No drug addicts either.

That's wild. Because it's all that Irish Catholic, it wasn't, it's not, we just didn't, no one really drank anything of any kind. But that's crazy. That's rare. That's like, you should be a case study. Yeah. Usually you got three out out of ten no one's

openly gay either or even like seemingly maybe anybody's still practicing catholic uh yeah yeah just maybe for their kids or something like since they're do you have a relationship with some of them the nieces and nephews yeah oh yeah yeah but're all, some of them are like 30. Really? Yeah. Because they're, you know. But that must be nice, right? I like, I have a better relationship with some of them than most of my. Siblings? Brothers and sisters, yeah. Because it's just easier.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's just like a very clear. And it's this thing where I'll do things for them. Right. That my brothers used to do for me. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Right. Like get them tickets for shit or like get you know send them money or yeah like it's nice to be able to just like hey yeah yeah here uncle i'm a fucking yeah my uncle's uh he broke with the chappelle show comedian yeah great so how like we we talked about your father we've talked about relationships a bit and you know you go to uh you know you do the recovery thing and therapy thing i do recovery and i i've been a little lax on the therapy yeah i've been i've been lax on recovery oh really i mean not i just haven't been going to meetings but like it's are you in a relationship

no yeah you like you you took a year off from a relationship yeah i haven't been one in a year yeah yeah almost more than a year is it all right yeah it's uh it's yeah i don't it i'm not especially lonely yeah you know i feel like i'm so behind on like these fucking hulu shows there's so many things to read and watch right like i as a the the curse of fucking being a, you never feel like you're writing enough jokes. I don't know. Like, ever feel like, oh, I'm caught up. Oh, really? I never feel caught up.

I don't have that same ethic. Oh, I just feel like I'm constantly like, you don't have a full out, you know, like. Yeah, no, I'm there. I'm there. Yeah, you do have that ethic because you just. Right, right. But I guess I don't think of it like I got to write jokes today. I'm sort of like, how do I stretch that out?

When am I going to? Yeah. You know, I guess it's the same thing. Yeah. But what about like, I think the last time we talked and you talk about it in the special about how this idea, I mean, you call it star fucking, but I think you're being a little hard on yourself. I think your nature, you know, to sort of be in the background or you know be part of something

other person's doing you know not uh you know be around the more charismatic person i used to do this thing about how like hey you don't mind if i use you for my battery for a while do you yeah warming my hands off your fire right right right yeah that's right that's right i noticed that that was a dynamic that i was a draining needy person so it wasn't the same thing yeah but i'd be like you know i would uh you know i'd be i talked to charismatic people i'd like be around charismatic people because it would sort of you know yeah give me juice fucking feels good man yeah but i mean i don't know that many stars and i certainly had the one but even the people that i was doing chabelle wasn't a star for the first 10 years of our relationship it was just like this fucking

hilarious charismatic dude yeah that i was happy to just be like yeah i'll just stand near you now have you guys like because i know that as you evolve into your own thing and you know have you guys you know are you reconciled or are you at a place yeah we're yeah we're wrecking yeah like i just did a bunch of shows with them i see them a lot oh yeah we text and was it ever a sit down or is just time never had a specific uh post-mortem uh-huh i don't think we ever will uh-huh because i think there's a uh a pretty big uh gap in terms of understanding or interpretation of things or wanting to talk about things in that way yeah yeah he has been doing a joke about me uh where he's like you know i'm gonna write a neil reads all these self-help

books but i'm thinking about i'm gonna write one called uh why don't you just drink like like that's just like that's like he says like black people don't black men don't need to be emotionally available like there's no that literally does not exist in the black vocabulary of relationships of like emotionally available like his sister said to me 50 20 years ago emotional availability went out with slavery huh for black men so like the i but having said that like we have me and dave have like you know we have a significant a very maybe the deepest emotional relationship i will ever have right like my ex-girlfriend used to call dave my my wife right like this heavy divorce yeah unsaid said yeah your anger love like uh-huh he said to me a few weeks a few months ago he goes just he goes when you're on your deathbed i'm gonna you're gonna think

that i was the love of your life so he wants that by the way he i used to joke that on our deathbed i what i want him to say his last word to be neil was right uh it's just so funny when guys like get to a certain level of of starness that you know their natural egos you know they don't know that they're getting larger and like you know yeah it's a it's a so they just say shit like that. Yeah. And they're just sort of like. Right. Yeah, that's a normal thing to say. He actually did say, though, he's like, I told my wife that you're one of the loves of my life. So it's like, it is, there was like an equality to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, there is a thing. I don't think he's wrong. Yeah. But it's a weird, it's a, I think it's fairly unusual. Yeah. In terms of two adult men. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Well, I think that's why he doesn't... I have a hard time... But I always assume that I have more history with people than I do and more familiarity than I do. I always approach things sort of like, oh, we're just... I knew you. I know you. I don't know him.

I don't know... I don't know... I think people you do, though i mean i think some people when you start when you spend five ten years with somebody in a fucking dungeon yeah in the village i think you know there's certain things that like you know that's the the great thing about seeing old people from new york in the 90s you see well yeah someone could be literally it's like kevin hart will do an arena yeah and if you go backstage it's still the same guy from the boston or the cellar like yeah it's not that different there there is a thing with a little different but not right like night and day yeah yeah uh not like a movie scene where

it's like so what have you been doing like you know like this thing where there's a million you know he's getting makeup done or whatever getting some iv ears and you know what i mean like you know there is a certain element of just like we're peers we're still peers yeah but then there's that moment i remember years ago before i i was you know doing well like uh you know i saw george lopez at the airport, and we're waiting on the curve, and he's like, you want to get in my limo with me?

And I'm like, get you right home? And I'm like, yeah, okay. So I'm in the limo with Lopez, who I don't know that well, but I know him from campus. And he has the guy, they drop him off first at his mansion and then it's like he'll take you home and then i'm just sitting in george lopez's window going like i don't know that

guy yeah there are certain things yeah like jets yeah right or that type thing where it is like yeah that's different but all that stuff gets pretty human pretty quickly right i find yeah i just but so you guys are good that's good good. Yeah. And what, now what's the focus now though outside of jokes? I mean, how do you do on the road? Good? You got a draw?

I'm about to go out and see, I think I'll do good. Post this special. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully I'll do well. With a new hour?

Yeah. And so I hope, I think I'll do well. Yeah, how many cities are you doing? Probably 20 at this point. Wow, yeah, that's good. And that's kind of, that's the thing. It's like I got a pilot that I'll see if it gets picked up.

But you did some directing? Yeah, I do. I direct commercials still. Oh, yeah? I like directing commercials. It's short term, takes like a day or two, work really good. No movies in the pipeline? No.

No movies. I like work, like you do commercials it takes good money it's fast it's work with like amazing people yeah that like i wouldn't work with otherwise and right and uh it's like you know stay fairly sharp yeah and yeah but i like again you know it's like what do you want to the good thing about being a comedian is you can just go out and do it. You can also just walk. Your life can be walking around and talking like Socrates. Yeah.

Yeah, it's the best. It's fucking pretty amazing. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. So, like, this idea of doing all this other stuff, it gets to that question of, like, for what? Like, what am I trying to induce in myself what feeling am i trying to induce because i find that having a series of some kind i just did a pilot and it was like

oh this is so stressful like it just wasn't fun yeah you know and like isn't it like i i understand what you're saying because i i relate to it but like it seems that it seems like okay so like there's this element of of we as stand-ups we do this immediate gratification thing and it's tight in the sense that you know we can just go and walk around with our notebook and when we travel we have one bag and maybe the opener is a local guy whatever you know you learn how to do that but like i keep hearing from like directors and actors and people like there's this idea of like don't you have the storytelling element don't you have a story to tell like like like i can't separate myself from my creative output i can't say like i'm gonna write a story about a guy named ralph who uh works at a copy shop but yeah i don't like i don't think that way right but you've

had experience with yeah i also think that yeah i, but I think that I have those outlets. I can go to Starry Night Live and write any week. I literally have an open door. So, like, if I have a sketch idea, I can go do it there, go to The Daily Show. I can get Seth Mott. Like, I know all these people. I can go there. And just say, like, I got an idea.

You want it? Yeah. Or I'll write it and stay there for the week and shoot it and um i did when dave hosted i did when aziz hosted and i find that i don't i've done it and i find it fun and satisfying i just find that the gratification of stand-up is way more direct like i in terms of the things that i like to consume i like sketches and i like late night comedy i like monologues i like desk pieces sure there's stuff that you can do in a week yeah i just like i just naturally like that stuff i don't watch any series yeah i don't know you don't got a movie in yet you didn't find that like by exploring these other elements of yourself and managing the the darkness

publicly that you know maybe there's's a narrative that has some humanity and emotional heft to it that you might want to... See, that's the thing, is I feel like I told it in the right way. Do you know what I mean? I'm just asking if you want to direct a movie. Yeah, no, I feel like I told it in the right way. Here's the other thing.

Movies are... You're spending a year or a year and a half on something that may not work i know i hear it all the time i don't know how people do it and and if you're doing it with people you don't know you can just not like them that much like getting a roommate or you're like fuck right and and i just find it's such a crapshoot and it's such a big it really overtakes your life and it can be thrown off by a star or a studio exec it's fine just these weird things and it's it makes it such a big emotional risk for uh not much of a payoff to me i know i i always think that when i talk to i'm like when people are like i worked six years on this thing yeah it didn't get into the festival yeah like fuck man i'm really sorry now i always point out like imagine if you

made a movie with a dolphin yeah and then it fucking bombed you had to go to a fucking pool every day and get the dolphin to be scared like just the, you don't even get to. Yeah. Yeah. So like I find that the things I like doing are short term things with people I like. So I'll work on, you know, Dave's host, I love working on him. I help rock with his special. Yeah. Like I just like doing short and I'll write. You help rock on the new special? Yeah.

What, with Punch Up? Yeah, a little Punch Up, but mostly just more like style. Yeah. Like what he was sort of, what he was doing and. Structure? Structure a little punch-up but mostly just more like style yeah like what he was sort of what he was doing and structure structure a little bit yeah but more performance and and making the sort of divorce stuff mean something uh-huh because at one point he was kind of rushing through it oh yeah didn't want to sit in the feeling yeah and i was like hey man you gotta you gotta fucking you gotta do it yeah you got to do it. Yeah.

You got to sit there. Ah. And he also has that thing of he's done five hours or six hours. So it's like, I know the rhythm. I know the rhythm. I know the tricks. The manic rhythm. Yeah.

I know the tricks. Like, you might want to evolve it a little bit. Yeah. And I think he did a little. Oh, good. And you get paid for that yeah but like yeah but it's yeah but it's not just sort of like uh uh it's like that's a service yeah yeah yeah it wasn't yeah it wasn't it was it was based born out of friendship but it was just like yeah you

give me some money i'm a producer on the special oh good um but uh but yeah like i just like doing a short i just don't want to get super invested in a thing that is a failure because not my fault yeah no it doesn't work because of someone else and i don't and i can't go fuck it was him like you know right and and also the i find that the way media is now, there's so many shows that unless this thing is amazing, you don't even take it out of the barn. Oh yeah. Yeah. Because like, how are you going to find an audience?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so many out there, just out there. Yeah. There's so many people post on you go and you want to go, I'm never good. I, I'm happy you're working yeah i really am happy people are working yeah and they're using all their faculties to create this thing and i don't have the time or interest to watch it yeah like i just i'm very sorry that's

just not my thing and it's a big it's just i find it kind of diminishing returns for a huge you know doing a series is a huge yeah physical oh yeah and mental and i did one that you know that wasn't watched that right and now i'm on one that is watched but i don't have the yeah i'm not i'm not where you don't got to worry about one hat man yeah you don't think about when you leave you just go i wonder i hope they got it yeah i hope they got it and like what time's my call tomorrow yeah i got a day off great yeah fantastic and yeah and yeah because i see you get uh i see you get applause from the show and i'm like never fucking watching that show yeah never gonna watch it my show glow yeah never i never watched the other one i just don't want i don't like i don't i like i like the comedy i explained and i like

documentaries so i'd be way more likely to watch a documentary than i would so serious yeah yeah i'm surprised i don't know what to watch always but uh you know yeah so that's the thing is i'm like what do i i the thing when you do something like you want to be big because you still have big but you also want it to fucking mean something yeah yeah i put all this meaning into it you put a lot of and the thing that you put meaning into is this i think you put as more meaning into this than anything you do well sure i mean yeah and that's and thankfully yeah you got the right cultural breaks yeah and you got the and it just landed yeah and that's a real and when it doesn't you're like fuck yeah in my comedy too you know i mean those are the things it was always the thing and they did fortunately sort of feed

each other you know i was able to build an audience and like i can that's the other thing ultimately this thing like i you know i i i love it and it's it's nourishing to me and i like talking to people and uh and it's a it's a great thing but like i and i know i've gotten better at this but i can also see like i know my last special was the best thing i've done like i know it yeah you know and i can see that like because like it really came down to sort of taking responsibility you know not unlike you do but for me to sort of like all right here's the set like to for me to crunch in on this on my i had an hour and a half and i needed 70 minutes for my last special and like two nights before i pulled it into from an hour and a half to like 70 with callbacks leaned it up like i know how to like craft the fucking yeah and i'd never really like

i didn't like coming into it i'm like what the fuck am i i always have this idea it's like i'm just i'm scrambling but it's like when it came down to it i'm like i put it together yeah and that's that speaks to to call back this it speaks to my love of precision right i but i respect that something really satisfying about that hour relative to your hbo half hour where you fucking winged it definitely yeah and like that's just to me that's just long term a better. I definitely feel better about that. And I think that if anything, what we're both saying is that, you know, we've worked a long time at things and we're good at them now. Yes.

Yes. And isn't it, uh, it is really freeing. It is. You know, I, you always use the word unfortunate, but it's very freeing in that, like the thing that you think having watched three mics, you think more of me now. I think more of you. Yeah. You think.

I know you better. Yeah. You know me better. But I always watch. He's good. I always watch. No, I always watch you. I know you're good.

Okay. I mean, you know, I, I, I always respect your jokes. I laugh at them. I'm jealous of them. I don't, I never had any. The full Marin spectrum. Yeah. I'm all in i mean you got all of the reactions you got all the reactions mark marin mike's yeah yeah jealousy but that there was a time where like that just that one porno line where i would have been like oh fuck him god damn it yeah. Yeah. Fuck that. That's like, I would have been like, that's kind of my joke.

You know? Yeah. He saw it. Yeah, yeah. No, I wouldn't have blamed you. Right. But now, having been in the,

it's like, everyone talks about porn. You know, I talk, we're all going to hit something, but it was just, that was the beat. That beat was the beat.

And like, you know, and I can appreciate it and tell you I appreciate it and be like, that's great and laugh at it and tell other people that i think it's funny as opposed to being like yeah fuck neil okay he's got this joke i don't want to talk about it but yeah yeah right

yeah no but that is we are good at a thing and it's it it allows both of us to relax a little bit yeah and uh hopefully be nicer to people no i think I think we are. And maybe the joy, let love in thing. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah. Best of luck to both of us. Yeah. Thanks, man. All right, buddy.

So there you go. I think we're okay. I feel that me and Neil are okay. I do. And I was happy to talk to him. I want to remind you that PodSwag.com is the new home of all WTF merch. Got one more show here. I got one more show from here.

Maybe two. I don't know. I'm hot, sweaty, chubby. But it's not going to stay that way. Things pass. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that.

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