WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 921 - David Harbour

Episode Date: June 3, 2018

David Harbour became pretty cynical about the acting profession before landing the star-making role of Jim Hopper on Stranger Things. But he and Marc are in agreement that it was probably better for David to hit it big after four decades of dealing with anxiety, self-hatred, mania, fear, sobriety, and the difficult project of building one's identity. David and Marc also talk about Hellboy, the elves on the edges of reality, and the one character trait of Hopper's that David likes the most. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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It's a great look at popular music history, so get it on iTunes starting today. That's Sidemen, Long Road to Glory. All right, let's do the show all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fucksters how's it going i'm mark maron this is wtf my podcast welcome to it today on the show i talked to actor David Harbour from Stranger Things maybe you've seen him in other movies Black Mass The Equalizer with Denzel he was in that he's in Brokeback Mountain but I guess most people know him now because of uh Stranger Things I just whenever I see David Harbour on screen in one form or another,

oh, Revolutionary Road he was in, but whether it's on TV or movies, I'm like, there's something about, I know that guy. There's something about that guy. What's up with that guy? I don't know. I've always, he's memorable to me. And then we met at one of the award shows,

and then we kind of got to talking in a crazy way, like two crazy people. And then we made this happen. He's going to record it a little bit ago back in the old garage, part of the transition. But it was one of these WTF interviews that there was definitely some emotional connective tissue between uh mr harbour and myself i feel like i knew the guy i feel like there was a i've known him for centuries one of those kind of things like yes yes we've both been here before you know so that was enjoyable. Enjoy that. That's coming your way. You know, folks, I don't, uh, I really do not understand the stupidity of humanity at times. This isn't even in a political sense. This is like, you look, you know, look, if it's pouring rain, uh, and it doesn't look like it's gonna let up i i think you can be optimistic

that'll let up hopefully before the flooding starts and it's reasonable to think from experience that rain will let up or that uh or that it won't get as bad as it could get but you know lava i mean lava i mean there's no precedent for lava. There's just people hanging out, not letting it ruin their vacations in Hawaii. Lava. It's hot, molten rock from the center of the earth. And people are just sort of like, I think it's okay. How's the lava today?

It's all right. They're not predicting it's going to get too bad. How the fuck does anybody know what lava is going to do? People are just you're playing golf they're riding bikes they're not leaving their land the lava it seems slow moving but i don't know man me and i'm not look i'm sorry if anyone who's listening to this is going through it but like get get some distance man it's the the island you're standing on was made out of lava i don't know how long it took but probably slowly

but who the fuck knows how much is gonna blow out of that hole people just you know playing volleyball having a time newscasters lava bubbling out of a hole in the earth from from the core of the fucking earth maybe it doesn't go down that deep. I don't know. Hot fucking lava just bubbling and spraying out of holes, and people are just sort of, it's right over there. We don't know how bad it's going to get. What if it gets really bad? It'll just, you know, the monument to the great volcano in Hawaii of 2018 and when they start excavating in 100 200 years not unlike pompeii the new

excavated bodies stone bodies taken from this particular natural disaster will just be in mid-golf swing or perhaps they'll catch a kid uh you know on a skateboard as he tries to jump a fissure. I don't know, but, and I got, I just, it just is sort of baffling, and I don't know that I wouldn't do the same thing. God knows there's been fires close by, and you just hope it doesn't get too close, but you can track that. Seems a little unpredictable when the earth is going to gurgle and cough its core out into the open and make a new part of the island. I don't know.

I'm not there. So I, I can't, I don't know for sure what's happening. I started watching the new season of glow, which I am involved with. I am an actor on it. And I've put it off long enough. I've had access to the new season for months. I'm not sure why I put it off, but I don't know.

They're just something, it's something I don't watch myself that often unless I have to. I don't listen to myself that often unless I have to. But I wanted to see how everyone else was doing. I wanted to see how the show looked. I wanted to see how it all came together. So I've watched, I think, seven or eight episodes, and it's pretty fucking good. Everybody's good. And I don't know. It is still difficult to watch myself on the show, but I'm happy with my work. There's definitely room for improvement.

Anyway, the new season of GLOW is excellent, and you're all going to get to see it on the 29th of this month. Okay? All right. We'll see if tyranny is the way of the future. We'll see if American authoritarianism occurs. the way of the future we'll see if american authoritarianism occurs we'll see how the muller team reacts to this new letter from trump's lawyer saying hey man the prez can do whatever

the fuck he wants ain't no rules just some assumptions no rules just assumptions constitution's not specifically clear about the gray area in this, but looks to us, if you chip it away, that the Prez can do whatever the fuck he wants. So you're just lucky he's letting you do what you're doing. All right? So shut the fuck up. Back off, everybody. No rules.

No rules. Just assumptions and tradition. Write them down, man. Somebody better write them the fuck down. What else has been happening? What's going on with you? Anything? I've been doing a little comedy again. I'm enjoying my house. I'm starting to enjoy life. There's, and I'm not good at it. In these horrible times, in these dark times, the ironic thing is I'm starting to enjoy my life a little bit, my house. I've been buying some things for the house and I walk around this house all the time, even the garage. I love it. I love the sound in here now. This kid, Julian, he built up these things, these panels, and I'm kind of closing in on some stuff. I'm going to get new windows, but I just, there's something about the focus of this room

that I'm really getting off on. And I don't know who you are or what your life looks like. Maybe it's difficult. Maybe it's okay, but things are okay right now for me. So I walk around my new house just thinking like, is this going to happen? Am I really going to pull this off? Am I really going to get to live a nice life? Do I deserve it? Do I get this? Doesn't seem like I get it or I should get it. I don't know why. It's just like there's just this dumb wall of whatever the fuck it is in my goddamn brain that's like, this isn't yours.

So that's my fight. So David Harbour. isn't this isn't yours so that's my fight so david harbour david harbour is a great actor in in engaging guy uh and i thought he was a little intense when i met him and uh and now i'm sure of it you can see uh seasons one and two of stranger things both on netflix he's also in the new hellboy he is the newboy. That comes out next year. And we talk about that and other things. And also, at the time I recorded this, I was like halfway through Stranger Things Season 2.

I was almost done, but I'm done. I finished it. I loved it. And it was great to talk to David. This is him and I doing this. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

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So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. That. So, here's the deal. When I first met you, right, at the SAG Awards, I don't know, it was giddy. I think we were out front, and I said, I made a joke. And I don't know if you know why I felt like I could. You were all excited and manic, and I said, so I think I said to you, I said, I was hoping you would finish, you know, whatever you started at the Critics' Choice. You said that my critic choice

thing was described half the season it was just it was surely a description of stranger things right right so you wanted to know what happened yeah kind of at the end of the second season right but you were but you were very earnest about the whole thing and your first reaction to me busting your love the uh yeah i love the the color on the word earnest. I appreciate it. No, no, no, you were. You were excited about what you had written, and I was just making a joke, and your response to me was, fuck you, fuck you.

I don't know why I felt that I could say that to you. No, but then you were like, people said we should talk, and I said you were smoking a cigar i was just sucking on it yeah i don't i just chew on them but then i said uh then i said all right well i'll have the bookers getting charged the bookers and you went to bookers the bookers okay the bookers and i'm like fine fuck it yeah give me your phone number just felt like you know have my people call your it felt like the biggest slight the biggest hollywood slot i mean i live in new york you know we like talk to me come out here and yeah people want the

bookers to help you out the bookers and then i said give me your phone number you gave me your phone number then i texted you once about the bookers and you said i don't think i should have given you my phone number and then i said no no we're gonna handle it and you're like okay good and then i texted you again and you don't get them anymore. And I said, did I cause him to change his phone number? Yeah, that was, no, that was funny. Did you text me again? Yeah, you did.

Wow. Yeah, no, no. I have a different number. I had an Instagram thing that happened where my phone number got released on Instagram. Oh, really? And I didn't know it. number got released on instagram oh really and i didn't know it and and i looked at my phone and i suddenly got like a hundred missed calls from like topeka kansas and but was it just and it was and i yeah and i checked a couple of the messages and they were like hello hundreds of messages of that

and i was like what do you do in these situations i guess you change your number i yeah i've never changed my number though that's a kind of horrific experience because you're sort of known and then you have a list of contacts mainly people that i don't speak to right but occasionally you get people who like you don't really know who texting you sure they're like they don't have your number anymore but but i feel presumptuous to actually send my new number out to someone like you like it feels a little bit aggressive to be like, hey, you need to contact me. No, it's better that I just think you're a big shot. Exactly.

Like my two texts. Changes his number. You're like, that's it. I think I texted you a picture of a cigar I was smoking, and then I texted you the other day just because I knew you were coming on, and they show up green instead of blue. They're just texting into nowhere. Oh, okay.

And I'm like, yeah. I've never met someone who changed their number. Thank you for that. Well, no, I mean, that number, probably they'll redistribute it eventually. Yeah, because I actually have some guy's number now. I shouldn't have changed my number because I have Earl's number.

Earl. And Earl gets calls from all kinds of people. I get normal personal calls where i'm like earl doesn't live here anymore and then he gets a lot of like he's got some credit ish or something like they're always offering him deals well you know that goes with the name earl you know you can't yeah you know you don't meet a lot of earls that are in good shape it's true earl is like one of those names where you have to be around 60 or 70. The kids aren't being called, the children aren't being called Earl anymore. I don't know why not.

I think it's maybe. I feel like it's a throwback to like medieval times. The Earl of, right? I thought it was more of a kind of a, you know, a small townie name. Like Earl, that's Earl the farmer. Like there he is. Earl out on his tractor. But it is not one of those ones that was resurrected by the hipsters like with the jacobs and the phoenixes and the mountains and the

whatever they are parkers and i don't know what are those truth yeah oh is there some truths yeah star starlight truth oh that's going that's not even names they're like you know we're done we're tapped out on names guitar yeah they're just, you know, we're done. We're tapped out on names. Guitar. Yeah. They're just naming things. Dog. But so, okay. So that makes me happy because it wasn't adding up that you would still be coming over if I had caused you to change your number. So we got that.

I'm glad that you took that on though. I appreciate you. Oh, no, I'll take anything. Yeah. I love it. I love that neurosis. Me too. Me too. Dude, I watch. Self-hatred. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's so good. Is it? oh no i'll take anything yeah i love it i love that neurosis me too i i want dude i want hatred

oh yeah that's so good is it well i i find people with a lot of i actually do find people with a lot of self-hatred or an unhealthy amount of self-hatred like uh for sort of beautiful people yeah i think that they we do have a certain like you'd rather take it out on yourself than on someone else right yeah yeah it's sort of like you know if someone says i'm gonna kick your ass you're like nah i'm on it no need i got it covered yeah yeah you just you just look at it like even when you're angry at someone else you know that that person is just sad inside and they're the angriest at themselves sure and that sort of makes you feel like oh it's okay yeah yeah no yeah maybe that's kind of an excuse that i have when i get forgetting angry at people is that they know that that might be some sort of justification oh sure like if you were bad

behavior right yeah well have you worked that into your apologies with the crying lady hey i look i'm so sad i'm sorry that i said those things you know not in that direct a language but yes some form of that yes i'm sure i have even be it in a look or an eyebrow raised or something like that yeah no i it's it's hard to have well i think i'm older than you and believe me the unresolved you're older than me i am the unresolved uh self-hatred eventually becomes exhausting and you realize like do i really need to have this be part of my process anymore in because for some reason most of life, you think it's not a choice. And it kind of isn't.

But you can temper it. You know what I mean? Eventually, it becomes exhausting to other people. It's self-involved. That's true. That's true. Doesn't it? Yeah, it does.

I mean, it's a funny thing, even in terms of stress in general. I've always had a feeling as an artist that you have to be sort of more in touch with all kinds of things right even the idea of your personal truth yeah which can be very annoying to people do you know what i mean and at a certain point you're kind of like whether or not i have to say my truth at this point or whether or not i have to be even true to that right like maybe i can just be happy and maybe i can just like shut my mouth yeah just gotta chill out and feel a little uncomfortable but like in the long run that'll be a better way to live right in a certain way yeah but it depends where all that other stuff's being stored yeah because it can be sublimated and then come out in really creepy

ways yeah i'm happy and then one day you just lose it on the coffee maker yeah yeah yeah that's it that's broken now i gotta clean this up that could go for that's a metaphor for anything yeah look i broke it i don't know i don't know if i did you just stomping around your house oh yeah after five years of sublimating stuff just break yeah just breaking everything broke it yeah it's everything broke it yeah and then someone comes over and you're just sitting there smiling. I feel better. I feel better now. It doesn't look good.

But I wonder ultimately that, you know, clearly we have something in common, which is our expectations that we set for ourselves are unreachable. And, you know, which, you know, becomes, you know, like that's what self-hatred is. Like what is self-hatred really? I'm not good enough. It's true. It's true. Who are you comparing yourself to? Everyone. do you have a personal goal in mind no

you know so it's just a constant comparison and immediate coming up short yeah constantly coming up short right like it's a hard place to keep yourself you know but i've done pretty well yeah it's natural and i think that it is you know it it has informed your roles oh absolutely absolutely thank thank you for noticing yes no the work that you are drawn to is also drawn to you oh dude that moment in in uh in black mass where you're like we're fucked we're yeah that's how I wake up in the morning. That's exactly how I wake up in the morning. What's that other actor's name?

Egerton? Yeah, Egerton. Egerton. He's good, but he's sitting there like, nah, we're good. It's going to work. And you're like, what are you talking about? Yeah, man. Yeah.

That's close to hump. Oh, but like with Stranger Things, which I, you know, it was funny because it was one of those things where I'm like, I don't know. There's fantasy stuff. Wait, was it the fantasy stuff or was it the hype stuff? Because I feel like I wouldn't have watched it as a result of the hype stuff. I don't pay that much attention to hype. Like, I mean, I eventually I get to things, but like I just thought like it was for kids.

What do I know? But like then again, like I watched the, what is it? The Shape of Water. And I didn't think I was going to watch that, but I was going Oh, yeah, yeah. But then again, I watched the, what is it, The Shape of Water, and I didn't think I was going to watch that, but I was going to watch the Oscar movies, and even if it was fantasy

and the guy was a fish guy, I was going to be pretty upset if he didn't live. I was going to turn it off. I'm like, if this goes that way, if the fish guy dies, I'm not going to be able

to really deal with life for two or three days. Wow, that movie really affected you. Everything affects me. You have aquatic empathy. way if the fish guy if the fish guy dies i'm not gonna be able to really deal with life for like two or three days that movie really affected you everything you have like aquatic empathy like true aquatic empathy well i i'm finding as i get older and as the world ends that you know i'm very you know raw and sort of open so yeah but i'm also as you get older do you think that's sentimentality or do you think that's like do you just get wistfully sentimental about all sorts of things i think what's happening is you know because i've had a an incredible lack of ability to uh function uh you you know in in my real life uh comfortably with intimacy

yeah that all the emotions are coming out in weird places that you know when you're watching fish by myself yeah exactly on the couch i do a lot of that eating three in the morning i should weeping yeah yeah slowly quietly weeping yeah yeah just kind of it's a beautiful image i would take that with me you know and then you stop yourself and you're like why am i so skilled they're gonna be all right they're gonna be all right and then the sad part about crying by yourself is when you stop yourself you sort of like that's it that's like who are you doing that for that's it i'm glad you vocalize it too talking to yourself about it but so so like with stranger

things though you know i have a propensity from back in the day when I was, I think, a little more borderline personality disorder and a little more hopped up on cocaine. I had, you know, I was pretty conspiracy minded, you know, a couple of decades ago. So anything that triggers my shadow government, you know, node, like I swear to God, for about the first six episodes, I'm like, like this kind of makes sense like this is this is not so far-fetched sure we don't know what the hole is or why the fuck they opened it but they did the jump from mk ultra acid to that hole um you know i think i wish not that big of a leap right i wish they'd go into it a little more but so you thought you thought it was a documentary yeah Yeah, a little bit. At the beginning, I'm like, you know, I think they, I know the kids are cute, but where's the explanation for the whole?

It doesn't matter, really, because I like, I know the kid, you know, has these gifts and, you know, there's other universes and it was from the hallucinogenics and the experiments where, you know, they were able to tap into these other universes through the what aren't hallucinations. Somehow they manifested the whole to the parallel universe. Correct. That anyone who's done acid or mushrooms knows. Right. Even if you weren't part of Maya or whatever.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's always like when you're tripping, you're sort of like, did I just see an elf? You know, like there's a moment. There's something on the periphery where you're like know it's always like when you're tripping you're sort of like did you see an elf you know like there's a moment there's something on the periphery where you're like it's all illusion anyway this is all the right well there's that right but then there's actually like what's that fucking guy's name i always forget wine uh guy wrote a book he wanted he was sort of positioning himself to be the modern sort of timothy leary hallucinogenic he was at the cutting edge of uh of uh you know the the new interest in the in what's that new the hallucinogen the hallucinogen that people

are doing now like you know like little uh hipsters are going down to oh ayahuasca yeah yeah he was like at the beginning of that and but he sort of he the point is he sort of you know in his book sort of states that through his hallucinatory experiences, he believes there's a parallel universe that's sort of got beings in it. So that's my only point. And now what's happened in Stranger Things is somehow or another, you know, they open the door to it.

Hopefully, to me, this will be something that we explore further. I mean, they have to sort of, they have to sort of explain what it is eventually. Like, is it the future? Is it a parallel universe? Pinchbeck. Daniel Pinchbeck. No idea. It's all right.

Daniel Pinchbeck wrote Elves on the Edges? No. No. No. It's all a clown show. That's what I took from it elves on the edges it really does sound like the title of my autobiography i mean i'm like really excited about that title no he wrote uh elves on the edges it should be called that hold on no the book that i

oh come on breaking open the head a psychedelic journey into the heart of contemporary shamanism shamanism okay okay 2012 the return of keatsie coddle yeah okay okay yeah i like shamanism that's cool do you um have you well i do i went through a huge phase who's that guy uh uh eclid or something, like wrote a book about shamanism that I tried to read like 800 pages of and then got pretty bored. How long? Tell me the truth.

As a self-hating, self-centered guy. Or how about this? How about this? You ever read Julian Jaynes? No. The Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. I've seen that book. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. Okay. The Bicameral Mind i've seen that book yeah yeah the origin of consciousness and the and the breakdown of the bicameral mind okay the bicameral mind is basically this idea which i find kind of interesting right which is like in greek times like you know you had athena like going and inspiring telemachus in the odyssey or something sure so like the idea of god i can't just do something because he feels like it well yeah, but he actually doesn't have consciousness. Like they're saying that it doesn't like telemonics. At that time, people didn't have consciousness. They just, the consciousness was broken down by this idea of gods and people.

Right. So like even the idea of genius, like living in the walls, like all these ideas were that actually the people back then weren't conscious. And the consciousness sort of incorporates these two sides of the brain. Sure. The gods and like. Oh, well, that's good. It's's kind of interesting yeah i don't know how many how many pages in did you stop i did so i think it was page 54 by the way shut up like in terms of stopping on pages i would like to say that the bookshelf i've covered over here is oh have we have you talked about the bookshelf like i guess i i have to say like gravity's

rainbow stuck out of me as like 12 pages yeah exactly i was like gravity's right but you gotta have it no it looks so smart no no i leave it up there because i'm gonna try it i'm gonna try it again eventually you're gonna try it like you're gonna be like 90 but no but like i've talked about like underlining you know a lot but like all it all stops in page 13 to 45 also can i talk to you about the underlying book thing because like you sit there with a pen and underline a book right i do yeah do you ever go back and look at what you've under sure you do well no and i'm always like really like that's what like i'm sure yeah it's so stupid right you know you read the paragraph and you're like i underlined that line yeah yeah no why that line like that book i and you're like, I underlined that line? Yeah, yeah. Why that line?

Like that book, I don't think I underlined in that book. What's this, Brothers Karamazov or Happiness for Dummies? A lot of times I underline. Oh, there's some underlines. Oh, good. Oh, here we go. It's a dramatic reading. No, this was a book.

We're going to eventually get into mustache grooming, aren't we? Because that's really what I came here for. It's about the same, isn't it? This book, I love this book. It's called Securing the City, Inside America's Best Counterterror Force, the NYPD. It's a book about how the NYPD became its own security entity after 9-11 because they didn't really have the financial support from the FBI, U.S. government, or the cia who was

battling with the fbi so new york had it sort of taken on itself to to put together a the best security force in the world through the nypd it's a great book well the thing is is like when i was going through it i saw like one there was one underline and now like that's always the good ones where where it's just like like it looked like i just i underlined one bit of dialogue in here and i think i remember what it is oh yeah yeah this i love this because i've sort of paraphrased this before he's talking to a cop the sergeant liked to use cop speak to simplify big issues he told me an old homicide detective once told him as they stood looking at a body in the street that the motives for all murders, quote, come down to three things, pussy, fear, and money, unquote.

And he paused. And I've thought about that since, you know. Then the older I get, the more I think, yeah, that's about right, unquote. No. That's like right out of a film noir. Right. Yeah. That's ridiculous.

Well, why wouldn't I underline that? That's supposed to be real. Yeah. That's a brilliant underline. Yeah. Mine are much stupider than that congratulations big concepts um no we can find some stupid ones no that's that's good though that's a good one i guess the point of this like what i was getting to when when you bring up uh because i what i hear when you say you know you you've you've gone on some of these spiritual journeys or you're open to this or that shamanism or whatever yeah it's not unlike me you know like i'm fascinated with it but i'm not i'm not hanging

any hope on it do you know you don't mean like i'll look into it like but like i don't see myself as a guy on a spiritual quest i know what that looks like i don't see you as that guy my brother is kind of that guy yeah and it it doesn't always work out but no no, no, no, no, no. I've actually, I mean, I'm 42 now. Right. So like I've had 20 years of like doing this stuff and I, I do. I mean, what stuff? Well, like getting fascinated by religious journeys.

I mean, for a while, like when I was, I mean, that's funny that you sort of lucked into this. I don't know if you have some weird kind of like shaman intuition, but it had been a big part of my life until recently where I actually gave it up entirely and i like you lost your faith i lost my idea that like i mean for me i was always looking for the answer and i guess that like now i don't care about the answer and

i don't i i don't even want to ask the question and i'm like totally fine with dying it's enough you know you're dying yeah like and i'm cool with that. Like, I don't need an afterlife. I don't even need a reincarnation. Like I'm, I'm cool. The afterlife has to keep going. I mean, what if forever? Yeah. That's the funny thing.

I mean, like it does, like I'm good with consciousness being like 60 or 70 years. And then we're like, good. Like I've kind of done what our consciousness goes back into the big pool oh yeah we're not gonna know about it yeah exactly we're not gonna be like oh spread out you know well that's the funny thing about because here's the thing like i have a friend who this is funny a college fraternity brother yeah uh we went to those guys and then well it was just no it was just because like oh everybody at Dartmouth was like no I know I know I know don't worry about it not yeah okay thanks um but I but anyway he uh he became a Buddhist monk with a guy called Thich Nhat Hanh oh yeah the anger guy sure he's a lot of things I mean like but sure the anger didn't he write a book about anger yeah

he wrote but he's written like 80 books though that was the one that was gifted to me well i'm not surprised the one you were drawn to like a bug light was given to me okay here i hope this maybe this will but anyway he has there's a monastery down in escondido uh that he's at i would go visit him down there um and i'd go like hang with the monks and I got really into Buddhism for a while. And it is funny, but this idea even about reincarnation is that you don't get to take, the one thing you don't get to take with you

is your ego. So any of your own like knowledge of yourself, like, yeah, you don't get to take. What a rip off. Yeah, or like how great, like as to our point, like after 60 or 70, you know, I'm gonna be done with my own ego.

You know what I mean? Like, I'm ready to put that to bed. Like, it's done its job. I don't know how your dad's doing, but it hangs on. Like, you know, the late 70s is not giving up that easily. Yeah. Hanging pretty tight. But I did.

No, I did go on. Like, it was funny. Even when I was 20, I think when I was 25, I got into Catholicism. What were you born as? I was converted to Catholicism. I was born as, like, a Christmas Eve Protestant, which is like, you just go and light the candles on Christmas Eve and, you know, sing songs. So where'd you grow up?

In Westchester County, so town, White Plains. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so, okay, so nice New York. Yeah. It's nice, it snows, there's seasons, White Plains. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay. So nice New York. Yeah. It's nice. It snows,

there are seasons, there are trees. Exactly. Yeah. And then you can just drive to the city maybe. Well, yeah. Or take that Metro North train,

the ice storm train or whatever. Sure. Don't get electrocuted. Yeah, exactly. So, all right. So,

so your parents, what would they do? The real estate, my dad was real estate, commercial real estate in white plains oh in white plains yeah small timer yeah sort of yeah they had a good business yeah couple office parks a shopping mall yeah exactly exactly i remember you know actually one of the fondest memories i have of my dad was like driving around i think when i was like eight or nine and

i remember him like he never talked about business with me. Yeah. Like he would never at dinner, it would always be about me. Yeah. It would never talk about anything. And then we drove around white planes. And at one point he had a sign on like a big building.

Yeah. Big old Sears or something. Right. And it was like the sign of like, and he was like, I'm leasing out that building. And I was like, it was like the most exciting thing. And it was the first time that my dad ever like was proud of business

in front of me and I was like this is cool dad I was like that's amazing yeah it said like it said like his company

like HCR and it was like his small business because it was his business that he he ran him and like I think he hired another guy

at one point but it was a very small White Plains real estate business and what about your mom and my mom was a homemaker until we left for uh college she real she was a housewife yeah um what'd she end up doing she and she wound up doing real estate right she wound up doing uh residential got her residential yeah yeah exactly got her license that's sort of it's a common theme. Sure, sure. And business cards and park benches. Yeah, yeah. My mom sends me her real estate calendar with her picture on it every year.

Really? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Tell me you're an agent. Wow. It's a calendar. She's still in it. Yeah, but she doesn't have the disposition for it.

She's not a killer. Yeah. She's down in Florida. Like, in her development, if she knows the person, you know, it seems they let her sell the house for them, you know, but she's never been, you know, it seems they let her sell the house for them. You know, but she's never been, you know, a snake. Yeah, my mom too. My mom too.

I mean, my mom was always a creative. Like, I got all of my creativity from my mom. Yeah. She just never sort of had the opportunity to sort of be creative. Oh, yeah. So, how do you know? My mom paints, and she started painting again. Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. She painted when I was a kid, and she started painting again really yeah yeah yeah she painted when i was a kid and she kind of gave up on it like she got crushed i think she went to get her master's when i was like you know in my 20s and i think it was just too much for her to be the older lady in the yeah yeah my mom would do these things she would do like crochet and needlepoint and stuff oh yeah she was a kid and then she also made these things which i would love to find them but she would make like like because they all and stuff when she was a kid. And then she also made these things, which I would love to find them. But she would make like, because they all grew up in Texas and Houston. Oh, really?

Yeah. So like real Southern, weird, like Irish, Irish by way of Houston, by way of like stainless steel for oil. So like big sort of a matriarch oil company. From her side of the family? Corporation from her side of the family. And very much like, you ever watch Dallas? Yeah. You know, like a little bit like Dallas. Sure.riarch oil company. From her side of the family? From her side of the family. And very much like, you ever watch Dallas? Yeah.

You know, like a little bit like Dallas. Sure. Not as much money. Texas is Texas. I can see how you could fit into that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, I would go down there. They were my favorite family because they were, you know,

they were Irish, they were charming. And you're tall and you can handle a hat. Yeah, and I had a little hat when I was a little cowboy from five years old. I used to have that little cowboy hat with the armadillo pin. Oh, yeah? Yeah, it was like a tie pin that I found that was an armadillo. I put it right in the front. Had your boots.

I remember we used to play poker in the back room of the corporation. It was called the Riley Corporation. It was like one because they didn't do any business basically. me and the guys the oil business yeah it was a stainless steel yeah but like they weren't doing any business i mean it was all done second cousin well so these were like dudes who worked in the office who i loved because i would just go sit with them they were fascinating like older guys i was like six and like these guys would just make jokes and we would buy like they got me into like blow guns. Do you know what blow guns are?

Like darts? Yeah, like darts. They'd buy me things like that, like bows. Yeah, yeah. And then at one point we played like poker, you know, I was so excited. These guys seem like really good with kids.

Yeah, so here's the thing. So one of them won. He said, I didn't have enough money or enough chips and he was like, well, let's bet your hat. And I was like, okay, okay. And your hat. And I was like, okay, okay. And I lost. And did they stick with it? And all day long, he wore this teeny cowboy hat around and taunted me.

And I was miserable. I'd be crying. I couldn't believe it. I lost my hat. You're crying? Yeah, like the whole day. And him just sitting at his desk. Yeah.

Of course, man. This was a different time first of all a time that i kind of miss yeah like these guys were hard guys you know i mean and even in terms of the show like stranger like that that guy is modeled on all these guys yeah guys who were like you don't cry as a guy like you know you know what i mean but like i was so miserable and he just wore it around all day like walked around the office all day this teeny tiny cowboy hat when did he and then he gave it back to me at the end of the day so hours oh yeah oh like a full day like a full business day what did you learn

from that david i mean what did that man teach you i don't know there was nothing there was no lesson it was just funny was it i mean looking back it's a it's a great i recall it with fondness at the time it was painful sure it was an adult hurting you yeah actively for no reason but i mean i guess i don't play poker there you go and it's sort of like you got to pay your debt exactly if you make choices there are consequences that's what you learned that day exactly yeah exactly so you know your hat but uh but my mom did used to make with her sister she made these like trash cans and they would cut out like from magazines from like old magazines like even national new graphic or time or life or whatever and like all these scenes yeah and they would make these scenes with like

some kind of thick resiny yellowy yellowy, rubber cement-y type thing and cover the whole thing. Yeah. And they were beautiful, but I... They're gone? Yeah, they're gone. I don't know where they are. Are your parents around?

They are. They're in Westchester. You can ask her. I could, yeah. I mean, the thing is, we sort of fell out with that family in Texas, so we kind of don't talk to them much anymore. Oh, I thought it was your mom's trash cans.

They were, but I think that they were sort of in a closet in my grandma's place, right? Oh, so you fell out with the grandma? Well, after she died, it all sort of fell apart. Money? Exactly. Is that what happens just to everybody? Oh, no. Just reading that book

that money pussy and fear is going to be that's why people die i imagine it trickles down and it's why relationships die yeah sure it's because of uh yeah so i yeah it was one of the three that's the that's the triangle there was some fear as well the trinity but uh but yeah yeah it's a funny thing though it actually really sou really soured me on money with my family. I can't. I don't want. I mean, I do fine, but I don't want any sort of inheritance. I want to give that all to my sister.

It freaks me out that people get. Yeah, I'm not hung up on that either. But I guess I understand it if the stakes are big enough. But I realize as I read the paper and I see people's behavior, The stakes are big enough. But it always, like, I realize as I read the paper and I see people's behavior, you know, sort of in their shameless lack of a moral compass when it comes to. Isn't that weird?

Like, I don't understand the evil, like, greed. Like, I really don't understand. I don't get it either. Like, because me and you both, it sounds like you, like, I live in a 450 square foot, like, alcove studio in the East Village. Yeah. And, like, I don't have a like we have a family i'll probably need another bedroom yeah but like the idea that you need i didn't think that way stuff yeah it's like why do we need so much i just bought a bigger house and i don't

have enough stuff to fill it and i feel a little weird about it but i i just felt like maybe it would be interesting to experience more space because i don't it doesn't look like i'm gonna have a family but but my point is here is that uh you know like for me like outside of giving money to charity maybe i could use a little to expand my quality of life but i never grew up like and i've thought about this a lot recently is that people who set out to make money figure out a way to make money in the same way that you talk about the you know yeah the achievement and. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's a thing. It's a thing they want. It's all they want.

Yeah. I mean, that is... But it's just numbers. What are you going to do with your life? I'm going to make money. Exactly, exactly. I got to figure out a way. What's my hustle?

What's my racket? How do I... What angle am I going to work to make the money to have that life? But with the suing and all that stuff, it's sort of like, you know, like I just... I can't deal with what it turns people into. You know, stuff it's sort of like you know like i just i don't i can't deal with what it turns people into you know and i and and it's not all the individual i mean i've gone through you know one divorce that was not so bad and another divorce that was fucking awful you know and it was just it was about you know about money it wasn't an entitlement and you

know in retrospect i understand it you know it's also a way to hurt someone right like in those negotiations it's just a way to hurt someone right like in those negotiations yeah it's just a way to like yeah but a lot of times they're turned out by evil fucking lawyers everybody likes to hurt people i mean come on like let's you know yeah look at that guy with your hat it goes way back that was the lawyers though mark that was the law the and also like as a kid i gravitated towards charismatic older guys because my dad was relatively emotionally unattentive and and i liked you know the stories and they're they seem to have defined sense of selves in spiritual senses no no just in like like when you talk about hanging

around with the old guys oh when you're younger you're just sort of like they're just whole people and they're like look at that guy seems to have a shit. He's a whole thing. I went through most of my life being like, I'm ill-defined. And I don't have any boundaries. I don't know. Am I a person? What's happening?

Do I have a personality? I was always reactive. Most of my personality is built on reacting badly, generally. And eventually, I got funny. But I don't know if that's something you had to deal with because i know i mean that makes a lot of sense i mean i identify tremendously with that idea that you uh that this ill-defined thing i mean i remember even in high school like writing an essay about how i felt like an alien like watching human beings from afar i was very much kind of a quiet person who would like kind of watch and

study and that was even, that even bled into my fascination with religion or spirituality was just this idea that like other people had an answer that I didn't have. And I sort of walked around with this like fleshy thing that felt porous and like was weird and awkward. And like I felt awkward in my skin. Where's my instruction manual? Yeah,

exactly. And you guys are all walking around like doing things in the skin. Where's my instruction manual? Yeah, exactly. And you guys are all walking around like doing things in the world. Yeah, like you have the answers. I get that when I see a guy with a leaf blower sometimes. I'm like,

that guy's got it figured out. Probably, you know, he's got a solid gun in place. I think that's good. It keeps you humble, you know? Yeah. Simple life.

But every time I have that fantasy of like, you know, I'm just going to go off the grid i it does like i can't not unlike with drugs and alcohol and stuff which i haven't done in years it's sort of like i know like if i do that then like you know by day three i'm gonna be like oh what i do you know i'm in that fucking cabin you're gonna sell coverage yeah but no i did the same thing i i don't do that stuff anymore either for years and years and years. What? Oh, really?

Yeah. You're off the shit? Yeah, off the shit for 15 years or whatever. Yeah? Yeah, although I did have a little dalliance when I was out here like five years ago. I had a little dip into what they know. You guys have medicine out here. Yeah.

Medicinal. Oh, you rationalized? I tried some of that for a couple. You're like, I'm not great. Exactly. Oh, there's medicine? It wasn't my, it never was my thing it's like yeah you guys are all doing this for about three months and like severe depression it really is i mean it's a good it was a good thing to go back i was like wow i mean i can't do otherwise like i can't do otherwise i got a card and you know and and it

was i was funny because i was working but you're the guy you're the asshole believe the doctor oh right oh he's right you know what i mean i am no but no i went to dr feel good on venice boulevard who looked like the sickest person i've ever met isn't he on the boardwalk yeah it was on the venice boardwalk and i got you pay 200 bucks yeah you get it sure but uh but he yeah i remember i was working on a tv show where i was like a regular but i would only work like once every two weeks. Too much time to hang around California. And all I would do is sit in my house in Venice and just like eat gummies and, you know, just, and it was, it was so sad.

This sounds like a short film I'd like to see. Or you would avoid like the plague, like either one. You'd either really rush out to see it or. No, I think it should be called gummies. Like either one. You'd either really rush out to see it or. No, I think it should be called gummies. But like, were you a program guy?

Yeah. Yeah. So did you have to start over? Yeah. Oh, it's humiliating. I had like 13 years. And also like it was, I got to say like. I'm sorry I'm laughing, but you know, I can, because we, if you have, I don't know. It's not funny.

No, it's, it's humiliating. It's absolutely humiliating it's absolutely humiliating my biggest fear it's like i swear to god no and i well so you know what's funny is god i wish you were at the meeting when i came back because i have to say like i i said that adam so i was like 10 days or something right and i and i they were like it was a pitch it's a it's a super intense pitch meeting yeah like where it's like a bunch of your timers. You're 10 days back? Yeah, 10 days back. And the old timer's like, what do you got to say?

And you're like, hi, I'm David. And then I was like, listen, I'm just feeling really bad about myself. Like I had 13, 10 days. Like I feel like just a jerk. And then like the next guy cross-talked me. Oh, man. And was like, that's your ego talking you are a

selfish like and i was like oh my god i i just want to die and like you're like you're selfish because you want to die i was like oh thanks welcome back you're the most important person in the room yeah yeah right thanks a lot for the support and the malignant tough love i mean yeah exactly jealous bastard that exactly but i will say in defense of the program that there were many people that came up to me and was like you know that's not the way we do it here yeah that's the great thing about it and and i i supported 100 like i it's not so much i mean mean, I obviously, you know, and I always say I don't represent it, but I don't know another way. This is the way I know.

There's no other way. So, like, I know that, you know, when people ask me about that, if I get emails and stuff, I'm like, go to a fucking meeting. Yeah, just go to a meeting. I mean, it'll work or it won't work, but it's a way and it's a context and it doesn't cost nothing and you just go. And, you know, if it doesn't stick, you know, whatever. But that's all that's really, like, anywhere you go and you just go and you know if it doesn't stick you know whatever but that that's all that's really like anywhere you go you can go to that thing yeah like anywhere

yeah i mean i've been in texas where for some reason if i'm on the road and i look up a meeting i will go to the worst one yeah i would all the time i will be like where am i is this do people live in this neighborhood i went to english-speaking meetings in Bulgaria, Mexico, Paris, all over the world. Yeah. It's great. It's great. But okay, so how do you end up moving towards acting? Okay.

So basically what happens is when I was... You have brothers, sisters? I've always been a hand bone. Yeah, yeah. My younger sister sister seven years younger but she you know the first seven years developmentally are like sort of the most important so I was an only

child sort of for the first seven years and look what happened exactly so I have a lot of the components of like a lot of the traits of an only child oh really yeah sort of yeah so do you know your sister's name it's foggy but I I can of, if I go through my phone. Yeah, lucky her.

No, no, I love her very much. I love her very much. We're close, but it was hard for a while. Sure. But yeah, so it was funny. I think that it came out of that feeling. So at first, it was kind of a hand bone quality. Like you're entertaining your parents. You're entertaining for some messed up reason.

Trying to get love somehow. Exactly. Or trying to solve problems. Yeah. Golden child sort of situation. Oh, yeah. Like I can fix problems that aren't beyond my control. The horrible thing about being the special golden child thing or the first,

I was the first kid and the first grandkid, both sides. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. Is that like they eventually, if you manage to, you, yeah, okay. Is that like they, eventually, if you manage to, you know, sort of, you know, entertain them sufficiently, they'll always think you have your shit together over anybody else. And inside, you're like, no, no, no, it's not.

I'm not, I'm not. Well, you don't really show them that you don't, right? No, because you're putting on a show. Exactly, how could they know? Well, they should. They're your fucking parents and you should have some intuition. This kid's acting out.

Everybody wants to just steal your hat. So yeah, so basically what happened was when I got to be in high school and stuff, I sort of was drawn to that feeling of feeling uncomfortable in my skin and being confused by human beings. Right. Like just constantly confused.

Yeah. Led me to a couple different outlets, one of which was drinking. Right. And then there was also this other outlet where I would see people behave in certain ways and I wouldn't believe them. Like they would say certain things

and I felt like they would mean something different. Oh, yeah? Like, yeah, I just started to see subtext where people were like, ha-ha, we're Like, yeah, I just started to see subtext. Oh, yeah? Where people were like, we're friends. We're friends. I love you. Yeah. And you just feel like you hate that person.

Why would you like me? Right. Or why are you saying something that's completely counter? Like, why are you lying? And then the question becomes, why are you lying? Why do you have to lie? And so I guess my brain just started firing on all these levels of, like, human beings are confusing, and I hate them.

And also they're like fascinating. They're the only thing I want to think about besides spiders. I do really love to watch a spider. But I was so fascinated by why they make the choices that they do, why they lock themselves into situations that they seem to not like. Why don't people live the way they want to? Or what is it that they're doing? And so that led me to acting. And I was like like because i would you're already doing the work well but i was also like an embarrassing person to have around yeah because i would

i i mean i would like kind of people would try to be at a party and like talk and i'd be like that guy who was too intense yeah like i think you're sad inside yeah yeah people be like that guy who was too intense. He'd be like, I think you're sad inside. I was like, oh. Yeah, yeah. People would be like, why are you such a creep? Like, what's wrong with you? You're the guy that sucked the energy out of the room. Exactly. Like, just completely deflated.

Deflated everything. Why is he here? There are 20 people in a room. Oh, you're so truthful. Like, thanks for ruining everything. Yeah. And so I found that, like, i definitely had this stubborn pride in my ability to see people like this stubborn stubborn bride like i know something and then i would view

it at parties or at friends and they would be like you're horrible human being stop it yeah and then i would go on stage and like sort of reveal it and people would like applaud me right so it was very attractive i was like oh so this sort of truth or this ability that i think i have to see people i can do it through art or i can do it through expression of acting but i just you know so that made me hungry to do more of that it's like to read plays and like to get into like you know so instead of like right so instead of like projecting or maybe seeing people for who they are and maybe not like but just but I could at least see a character for what I felt the character was. And inhabit it. Exactly.

And reveal what I wanted to reveal through my particular version or whatever. I had ownership. I don't have ownership of human beings, but I thought I did. They don't bend to your will. I mean, I try my hardest, but I did have ownership of that character and i could

do something and so it was a way of having relationships with imaginary or you know fictitious people that allowed me to bowl them over and like you know use them for my own expression yeah in a context a safe space exactly and also where i knew the end of the story sure that was the other thing too was like emotionally i have real problems with conflict and real problems with um uh just like vulnerability emotion in general and so i like to know the ends of stories like i like to know how things turn out yeah like you can behave in a certain way in this and even in a way that sculpts what i'm drawn to in story because uh i do think that you have somewhat of a responsibility as a storyteller to like craft for the world to like reveal to the world.

Like if you do this in your life, you'll end up here. Or if you do this in your life, you might end up here. So how did you lose? Ultimately, you know, over time, you lost that weird, needy intensity. No, no. Can't you feel it? Can't you feel it across the table here i feel something but no a lot of what this podcast was is like i don't know you but like i i had an exchange with you that was two minutes but i i decided some things about you okay yeah interesting

yeah you know but like i do that with everybody because i talk to people with public personalities here and like you know i'm pretty sure i got a sense of somebody and i'm always it's always a lot of my interviews are are people basically arguing against my idea of who they are yeah yeah yeah that's great though yeah that you get a chance to do that well yeah but i don't project it i'm like no no i i know who you are i don't do that that's what i do that's not a good interview that's why i don't have a podcast yeah stop talking i got it that's my go-to that's my go-to no i um that's it no but i i mean i guess i do have a brash uh i i do have kind of a brash confidence that is that what you're like what were you saying in reference to losing that needy whatever oh no the at the well no like no no no no no i mean like you know because when you're that guy where like i feel that my version of that guy

or people i you know i got a friend you know who was always pretty intense but he's sort of a dick about it you know like when we were younger you know he was quiet and difficult and you know he was intimidating but he never let on and you know he was just sort of like he liked being that occupying that space but for me i find that all of that stuff they sort of like no you're sad inside or you know like why are you guys going through this charade there's no point to this game you know like is that there's a need to it like you know i need attention or i'm sad or okay so now we're all at my level, which is unhappy. And how do we fix this? You're welcome.

Like, you know, it had something to do with that lack of boundaries and not feeling whole. But like the gift of sucking the wind out of a room, you know, is, you know, this is not a small, that's a large talent that you have to. No, I mean, you got to figure out how to wrangle it, you know, and then turn it in on itself. And it seems like you did. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But, but so you, you start pursuing it in high school, the acting? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, I did as much as I could sort of in middle school. There was like little things, but it was mainly hammy. But then once I got into high school, I start to, yeah, be really confused about people. And I do like school plays. Like I just did high school plays and I auditioned for a community theater, like all that stuff. And I loved it so much. Like I just, it was the only thing besides drinking.

Yeah. And like girls. Yeah. It like made any sense to me. Yeah. So I, so yeah, I loved it.

And I actually wanted to drop out of high school sort of like move to new york city at like 17 and just like try do it yeah but i was in a community that was very you know uh there was no examples of artists right it was all right lawyers and doctors sure you know business people and real estate brokers and stuff so yeah it was i was very much like and your parents they get scared when you. Yeah, everybody, you know. That's not a good idea. Finish high school first.

Yeah, you're going to go to Dartmouth and you're going to, yeah, yeah. How'd you get into Dartmouth? You must have been smart. That was a legacy. Oh, okay. We take them. He gave a couple bucks. No, yeah, no, no.

I guess I was smart in a certain way. I mean, I was very, you know. Where is that school again school it's up in new hampshire oh yeah it was hard though to go to that type of environment because i just i mean first of all i think kids going out of high school it's like i don't know why people don't why people go direct into college i didn't want to go to college did you go to college yeah yeah i didn't want to go either and then i freaked out my senior year like i was sort of mediocre grades for all the way

through junior year and then like something just lit up in me I'm like like I had this idea like I'm just gonna hang out you know do art here because I was like you know I knew all the groovy people by the university and stuff and then like I don't know I just realized like I gotta get the fuck out of here and like I did I my senior year I finally turned all my grades around but I still couldn't really get into a good school okay I ended up going to a small college for a year, and I ended up going to Boston University for four years. Oh, there you go. Five years undergrad.

Wow. Took your time. Yeah. But I did a lot of stuff. I acted. I wrote for the paper. I edited. I wrote poetry.

I fucking... I did all this stuff and cobbled together some sort of major at the end in English and film studies. Yeah. But yeah, it was great. I mean, English and film studies. Yeah. But, yeah. I mean, that's the thing about college. It was great. It was like I did read books that I never would read in real life.

I wish I could go now. Like, I don't like. Me too. That's the thing. And I feel like as, I wish that there was a cultural thing. Like, I don't feel like, and this will be a horrible thing for me to say, but like, after you graduate high school, like, don't go to college. Like, go to college when you're 25 or something.

Like, you're sick of school, right? Right, there's that. But also like I just knew that like, again, I wasn't going to be a business guy. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to be intelligent and intellectual. I liked what I wanted to know about theater, art, plays, movies. My goal was to be able to have conversations about that

because of somebody in my life that I was very impressed with, that guy in that picture on the top of the bulletin board, Gus Blaisdell. He was this intellectual powerhouse, owned a bookstore. I decided that's the model. That's where it's at. Know a little bit about everything. Engage your creativity.

It had nothing to do with money. It had nothing to do but explore shit. As a kid, you have so much energy and so much sort of like... I'm mad that I couldn't understand philosophy. creativity is that nothing to do with money had nothing to do, but like explore shit. So for me, I mean, as a kid, you have so much energy and so much sort of, but I'm mad that I couldn't understand philosophy. I couldn't wrap my brain around shit. I'm no good at math.

So those kinds of courses didn't do anything for me. I'm not great at contextualizing, uh, you know, history. So a lot of the things that require discipline and, and, and putting things into context,

not great, but you know, like I could write and, and, and, you know, act and, great but you know like i could write and and and you know act and uh you know talk shit about movies that was all good like i still like i i don't know i i couldn't fucking handle writing but so you didn't really get anything out of college i mean couldn't you have got that by just coming going to new york and like hanging out with a bunch of cool people i guess so but there's also the problem that eventually led to my you know bottoming out on drugs you know so like i'm not sure without the context you know which cradled me in my drug use

and at least give me some that's true you know that i because you still had to get up for class yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and you still could you know act like a big shot and do some writing and do some that's true that's true it offers you an opportunity to like yeah be a part of the paper or like whatever yeah right do some yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah but you know my heroes were all the you know wrong ones they were they were good mine too all the ones that wound up in the mental asylums and like wound up being underhawks yeah these guys are also that they're the greatest sure right yeah like who we talking about uh like i mean for me it was like uh f scott fitzgerald and like all those writers from the 20s like even a guy like do you know a guy called Hart Crane?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like Hart Crane or Tennessee Williams and all these, you know. Then like even like Ezra Pound. Oh, yeah. Like I remember like we'd read a lot of that stuff. That's accessible stuff.

For like a – True, isn't it? I love – Let's get high on that. Exactly. Read the cantos of Pound. Yeah, let's read the cantos. Exactly.

They'll all come together. But yeah, all those writers sort of from the turn of the century like all those millennials of like uh the 1900s um they were all my iron shelly yeah exactly sure like big romantic poets like big bipolar yeah people whitman like all those guys so you go to dartmouth and there's acting there or no uh some yeah i mean that's not where you did the acting well yeah i mean basically it's not through the department though like me and my friends got together we wrote plays oh yeah we would put on our own plays oh yeah i started writing and i started getting into

like you know avant-garde directors um like you know at the time like steven burkoff like you know physical theater tatiush contour and like you know we we read a lot of Kutowski and things like that. So we were really into avant-garde. Richard Foreman and these guys that we, Robert Wilson. So we came to New York together. Even people like, I remember loving Mary Zimmerman. We all took a road trip and went to go see Journey to the West, which is based on an ancient fable.

Oh, yeah? And about this monkey king and stuff. And so it was sort of like mythic, but foreman. It was like we had this whole aesthetic. But your interest was right out of the gate, really kind of provocative, envelope-pushing theater. Yeah. I mean, it was very heady stuff.

Yeah. I look back on it as being not the most effective or provocative stuff I could have done. But at the time, I felt that it was. Well, it was arty and you were young. Yeah. And you're young and that's what you do, right? And it was very hard to understand. But I remember even saying, I'd rather be Brecht than Brad Pitt.

Sure. That sort of feeling. And I would write manifestos. That's why you go to college. For lines like that? You can't just go to New York and I would write like manifestos. That's why you go to college. For lines like that? You can't just go to New York and do that. You're right. You're right.

You can't. But I think it's also like the chicken and the egg. It's like when you're at college and not in New York, you have to develop that line because you're at college. You don't just go to college. It's like you're stuck at Dartmouth and people like Ed Norton are doing movies and you're looking at them ragefully and going like yeah I'd rather be here yeah yeah let's do our show in the basement of the cafe yeah but but yeah but also it's confounding and you know it is part of

like you know having a certain ego and then you get out into the real world and eventually that gets pounded out of you but but like what are you talking about you know like and then but like as you say you know once you yeah get the fortitude you accept and integrate you know that shameful part of your development and you can laugh at it yes yes and you can use it and all sorts of right right they are great stories so when you when you leave dartmouth do you go right to new york yeah so i go to go to New York with a group of friends. So we had a nonprofit theater company for like two years. Really?

Oh, yeah. What was that called? I got to know the name. Oh, no. You got to do it. Oh, this is. Come on. Talk about vulnerability.

No, this is the most embarrassing thing I could ever. Is it called? Isis Ensemble. I'm about to cry. I know. I'm about to cry too for different reasons. The fact that I admitted that. Iasis were like, in Hamlet, there's a line where he says when the players are coming,

he says, there is, sir, an eerie of children, little Iasis, who like cry on the top of questions. He's talking about players in the city that people really like yeah that are like little children yeah and so like it was born out of that it means like young hawks and greek or something yeah yeah it's not it was it's so embarrassing i look there might be someone listening going like i used to love that okay all right i think maybe three people saw our place but But we wrote, you know, we would like sort of co-write these like plays together. These like weird plays and we'd like put them up. But it was basically like the thing about having a nonprofit theater company in New York that's so sad is like you come out of college and all you're doing is begging your parents' friends for money to support the theater. Yeah, yeah.

And all their kids are like, you know, hedge fund guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're just humiliated yeah just constantly right yeah by like what are you doing with your life sure so you drink and yeah you know yeah and you talk about the theater and you sit around the bars like smoking jetons and a beret yeah talking about the theater and people don't understand we must create a new theater right and when did start when did the people start peeling off yeah exactly that's exactly what happened pretty early on pretty early on and then basically like i was with uh my girlfriend at the time like we were sort of the co-heads yeah and then that broke up and that was like it just destroyed a lesson in uh the whole community around exactly it was so uh so he was so that went yeah that went by the way but also

it was a in a combination with my bottoming out oh yeah oh really that's when i had yeah oh god yeah so it was all wrapped up in first of all just this anger at uh the world yeah uh and and righteousness and self-centeredness of like when am i gonna get mine yeah yeah yeah when are they gonna recognize my genius with my theater company and like doing nothing and having no idea how to get any sort of attention whatsoever just you know no just arriving yeah just like arriving in new york that weird expectation right that i'm here exactly yeah did you have that as well when you like i used to i used to say you know it takes you have to realize that hollywood is not your parents that you know you like when you get somewhere you're like well how does it you don't even think

about how does it happen it's sort of like i'm here i'll wait for them to come get me and then two weeks go by and like, this isn't working out. Well, that's the funny thing is like people ask me too. I get like Twitter messages from people who are like, hey, like I want to be an actor. Can I, how can I be on Stranger Things? Yeah. And I'm like, this was a lifetime of humiliation, rejection and work that landed me on a show that got past the first season. Yeah.

And you think that you haven't even acted before. Yeah. But, like, we're just going to invite you. Is that what you tweeted back? No, I say, I don't. You tweeted back, like, this is actually the way. Good luck. I hope someone sees this.

That's like taking the cowboy hat. Yeah. Isn't it? It's like wearing it around for a day. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, it it it's like wearing it around for a day yeah yeah it's kind of like wearing it around for that's exactly it but yeah so it all fell apart at like 24 and that's good that's good and young though man yeah and that's but that's actually when i got you know when i stopped drinking and stuff yeah no but like you've got you got that in early and it's yeah yeah oh yeah oh until. Until the weed? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it stuck.

Because basically what happened was it was funny. So I got sober and it all fell apart. And I had gotten an agent before then, like a really crappy agent. Right. But I did get like a week into sobriety. I got my first paid. I was on a soap opera.

I was a day player on As the World Turns. And it was like suddenly I could make money. I I was on a soap opera. I was a day player on As the World Turns. And it was like, suddenly, like, I could make money. I could pay my rent. Yeah. So it was very clear. It was a regular gig? Well, it started out just as a day. Yeah.

And then I guess they liked me or whatever. Yeah. So they just kept putting me in. Yeah. And it was like a recurring kind of thing. Oh, yeah. For like three years. And that was a gift of sobriety.

You're like a week in. You're like, look at that. Exactly. It's like that thing they talk about, cash and prizes or whatever, right? It's like you actually clean up. I did actually get them early. I was like really, yeah.

But like, so when does the abrupt journey into Catholicism happen? Like year and a half into sobriety, sobriety yeah wow that was what you chose well here's the thing so uh i i got sober in the east village yeah and uh i would go and here's the thing about like being sober at 24 is like you feel like such hell and then you get sober and all these uh like adorable east village like girls and guys like everyone and they're not drinking anymore so like their skin looks great like everybody looks healthy yeah and they're all like the cool kids that i always wanted to drink with yeah but like was weird and they're all going out of their mind

and fucking each other kind of yes and but also like being so kind of loving yeah like even if they won't fuck you they're still like keep coming back and you're like oh're like, oh. Yeah. But yeah, I got sober with these people. But one of the guys in there was this really fascinating guy who was, he was like a gay guy from the East Village, artist, painter, but was like a strict, like huge Catholic. He used to go to Latin masses and like loved Catholicism. And he was trained, he was going to become a monk with the Franciscans in Pennsylvania. No kidding. And so eventually like he was my sponsor. I thought he was the most brilliant guy i'd ever met like super smart and super into

principles like wanted to be as do as little as little as possible with the capitalist system lived in like an sro for like 50 bucks a month bathroom down the hall like mad on the floor would paint oil paintings um and just was totally you know living kind of counterculture aesthetic life exactly yeah but like completely i mean capitalism makes hordes of us all right like didn't want to be involved as little as possible right would actually make money doing focus groups yeah which was hilarious you get paid to do focus groups for ad movies ad agencies yeah yeah but he he became my sponsor and like he was a brilliant guy

and we would talk about we basically like talk about you know philosophy like all the time and he introduced me to De Profundis

which is like Oscar Wilde's Letter to Bozy that he wrote when he was in Reading Jail oh really which is like

a 200 page basically like letter of oscar wilde just saying to bozzi like you're horrible but also like going through his life and going through how nothing works yeah and basically i've tried everything right as an east seat art yeah and like there's no salvation and then he does say in the in the letter he says the only thing that may work is christianity but there's only one guy who's ever done it saint francis of assisi like um and and and i was like fascinated

the guy like oscar wilde would think that that was like the answer right right yeah because i was very interested in the answer like i didn't really understand what the what the point of this meat market of death yeah i would describe it like we're just born into this world it's just blood tooth claw things eating each other yeah constantly like shitting and eating like like what the fuck is this this is crazy those are great great sober thoughts well i gotta say like once that's when i realized my problems was when i got sober it wasn't when i was drinking like when i was drinking i was like fine I was numbed out. But then I got sober and my brain started like, you know.

And then he went off to become a monk and he sort of got me into Catholicism and I started reading the Catechism and I started like doing Catechism's instruction

with this Catholic priest and I started getting into mystic saints which are like Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross and Augustine and Aquinas

and stuff like that. And it was like. It's all in there. It's weird. You go to Europe and you go to Italy and these places and I was sort of amazed like... It's all in there. It's weird. You go to Europe, you go to Italy and these places. And I was sort of amazed at, you know, you go to these different cathedrals and little towns,

these huge cathedrals that were just sort of overwhelming. They just were designed to make the peasants just humble themselves. And just the sheer amount of dead wizards that they have in these places. You realize, like,

this has really been going on a long time every one of these joints has at least nine dead popes in it and you know like and and it's if there's so and you just feel like it's just like there's something you know i always say witchy about it but but there is a real mind fuck to the mystical uh history of of the catholics there's no doubt yeah Yeah. And I find it beautiful and fascinating. I mean, like, I remember reading Teresa of Avila and, like, sexy. Yeah. Like, you know, like, reading Teresa of Avila's Interior Castles book and just it all being

about this ecstatic connection to God that just made you feel so much. Yeah. And who doesn't want to have mania when your depressive boundary was sad? much yeah and who doesn't want to have mania when you're depressive boundary was sad worse so but but here's but he so here's the interesting thing which i've actually i've never truly spoken about publicly yeah it's interesting to like because we want to talk about the speech and stuff too later on but i i actually was in this catholicism thing and he had left and i was sober for like a year and a half and i was 25 and I actually did have a manic episode where uh and I was diagnosed as bipolar really yeah so I what'd you what'd you get done during the manic episode

I uh I I I really had like a bit of a break oh yeah where I yeah where I um you know I thought I was in connection to some sort of god yeah that I wasn't really in connection to some sort of God that I wasn't really in connection to. You were getting the signals? Yeah, sort of. Talking? Yeah. Yeah. And writing a lot.

Oh, yeah. The whole thing. And it was like I had all the answers suddenly. Yeah. And so I- No drugs? No. But the interesting thing about it is I realized

that I don't really need them. Right. That I have a capacity to see the elves and the corners of the room. If I really allow myself to go there. Yeah. So I actually was, uh, by my parents sort of taken into a, a mental asylum.

Oh yeah. So you're living like your heroes. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I have to say one thing about the mental asylum is I, I've romanticized two things in my life yeah and both have fallen short oh yeah one one is being in a mental asylum uh really really not as fun as you think it is no but you do you have a romantic

idea of like you're a genius and then it just winds up being you know sad and smells like shit yeah smells like you know people walking slowly and the other thing was boating like i just recently went on a ship in open water yeah and i thought i'd read moby dick a million times and i was like this is good and it's really not as no it's terrifying it's not sexy it's horrible it's it's very similar to the mental asylum experience yeah yeah um so yeah i was and then i was diagnosed bipolar And then that's when actually the drugs came in was I started to be – I've been medicated for bipolar for a long time. Oh, that's great.

And I've been – and I've had problems sort of going on and off. I've had a struggle going on and off the medications. Because you missed the mania. Yeah. Or you think that you're not the artist that you could be. Right. You know what I mean? You think you're not not the artist that you could be. Right. You know what I mean? You think you're not digging as deeply as you could be.

So you take the plug off. Yeah. Let's let this, let's see, let's open this baby up. Like, you know, take the governor off. Yeah. But it's funny. Also my, the funny thing about my particular brain yeah like mental illness is that every time that i've had an episode like that it's always coupled with spirituality so

the weird thing about me is everybody think everybody for generally people like i need to meditate more yeah i need to like get into yoga and it's like i need to like eat a cheeseburger and just like smoke cigarettes and hang out because like the minute i get close to that what i consider a flame of like the answers and the mysticism and the like i'm completely present and i mean like it's like i'm out of my mind so it's like i live i if i write the self-help book yeah it's gonna be about like you know what sit on the couch like play some video games like yeah know don't let your brain run away with you you know yeah yeah like quit yeah because like if you if you let your brain run away you're you're just uh you're like uh you know maybe a

few days shy of walking down the street with a robe no joke. Telling people like, I know. Exactly. Like, come join me. Yeah. In my walk. It's an amazing thing. And tell me, does the rationalization start with like, maybe I'm not crazy. Maybe I'm. Are you kidding?

First of all, have you ever been to a mental asylum? No. The only thing that defines a crazy person and a normal person, the only thing. Yeah. Because they can seem, you can seem very normal as a crazy person yeah the only thing is they're convinced they're saying like crazy people are convinced yeah you don't understand no they they don't i'm the only one who gets it it's incredible it's a funny conversation that's happening in this country right now with uh you know the shooters and everything in terms of gun control and people want to make it about mental illness right but the

thing is my experiences with mentally ill people and all this stuff is that in general i've met tons of like gentle like wonderful people yeah like i think that there really is still a stigma that's like this strange thing oh yeah that's always psychotics and yeah people yeah so so like once you got leveled off you you you're acting you know started to pick up or like when did you know when did you start doing broadway and stuff well yeah yeah like once i kind of got yeah that problem under control yeah and then i you know i was doing like kind of smaller plays and then i wound up doing um who's afraid of virginia wolf on broadway you got tony or something right uh nomination yeah oh yeah lost it's great that's good yeah no it was great it was a great show it was a really great show kathleen turner oh wow yeah

so you were the younger couple or yeah okay we were nick and honey me and this actress mira enos do you know her no you ever watch the killing on the nines she's she's great actress really great actress. And Bill Irwin. Do you know Bill Irwin? I do know. He's a clown. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was Mr. Noodle on Sesame Street. Did he play the older guy? He played George, yeah. Really? And he was great because the thing about the movie is the movie you have Richard Burton in that role. Yeah. And he's such a powerhouse.

Oh, I know that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Bill is a skinny, weird yeah dude and so and like you have kathleen turner who's like you know kathleen turner right it was a kind of a great combination very different production that's great it was like a rock concert man people really loved it oh yeah like oh yeah like every night we come out and people are like scream and cheer really it's a very funny play. Yeah. I mean, it's a humiliating play. I did it for a year. Yeah.

And like he, Nick in particular, gets so humiliated at the end of the play. Like he can't get it up with her. And he, and I remember being made fun of. And I remember like around eight months in, just like, and the audience would howl with laughter when she would like make these jokes about him like not being able.

And I just remember like about eight months in having these like little dizzy spells where i'd just be so mad at the audience for laughing at me because i'd so deeply like i realized i spent more time in that house like i would spend three hours a day eight shows a week so i spent like so much time actually in that house experiencing that yeah yeah it was almost like was almost like. Oh, yeah, you crossed over. Yeah, it's almost like you're actually living that life more than you are your own. So the upside down was a prophecy. Exactly.

The upside down was actually theater for you. Exactly, exactly. There was funny stuff that happened too, though. Like we would, like about like eight or nine months in too, this was crazy. Like you do a play, it's the same play, you know, for eight shows a week. And I remember about eight or nine months in being ready to make my entrance at the door yeah and like having this like heart-stopping fear and going like somebody

get me a script i don't know any of my lines someone get me i don't know anyone and they would open the door and it would just come out of your mouth and you just like for some reason this fear would just wash over me that I didn't know you'd been doing it for so long somebody get me a script but also like also you'd be

cause it gets surreal like you're doing the same thing and then you'd be on the couch like talking to someone and you'd say a line and then you'd go like, did I just say that? Or was that the matinee? Or was that like three weeks ago? Yeah, yeah.

Like it's completely a surreal experience. Yeah, man. Talking about like, you know, between the manias and like doing a play for a year.

No real action. Yeah, it's just too complete. But it's so funny, even when things are going well, your brain's just sort of like, nope. Nope.

It's not going to be okay. You've done this for eight months. It's not going to be okay. Get me a script. Get me a script. Just let me look at those. Just look. Give me a script.

Yeah, God, that's great. So was that, and that was your big theater break yeah yeah that was that was a big that was a big break yeah so we did that for like eight months on Broadway and then like five months in London yeah oh wow yeah that was kind of cool and the medicine's working and everything's good this is working all good yeah I mean I've had a couple I've had a couple episodes since then yeah but uh it's been when i've tampered with this idea you know because i yeah exactly and that and the shame sort of that i've dealt with throughout the years about it oh about being on it yeah and just being yeah and that we're when the sickness talks to you it's

like you're not you're being your full self yeah or like you don't yeah you don't you're not being your full self and also like you know but there's even more insidious ones, which is like, and it's not that I completely disagree with this, but pharmaceutical companies are conspiring against this. Like, they're trying to get you addicted to lifelong medications. You're better, you know. But also, like, I got to say, even in representations in movies, they're very irresponsible. Like, I remember being really pissed off at that movie,

A Beautiful Mind, because, like, he basically, at at the end of the movie decides that he doesn't need medication and he can just control the voices and he can just kind of put them off to the side his house and like with things on the wall but it's like you know there are these or there are also are these images in movies of like people going off their medications and finally being like liberated. And I think that like the best representation I've ever seen of it is like Homeland. Like I think that's really sophisticated interpretation of it where you can be sort of brilliant and highly functional and all this stuff.

And then also you can have these things where if you're not being responsible in that way. Well, that's the thing. It's like, yeah, the pharmaceuticals are a big business, but there have been advances in Western medicine that have made life better for people who have problems and are sick. Correct. But my East Village conspiracy theory shadow government idea

talks to me in those weak moments and says, they're just trying to control you. Yeah. Well, it's like somebody once said about, there's a story a a story where where some guy says that he had a sponsor where he said like at the beginning of sobriety he's like hey man my they're brainwashing me yeah and the sponsor goes like well maybe your brain needed washing exactly exactly no that's exactly right that's exactly right it's like so what yeah he's like you feel better everyone likes you more

yeah yeah but i get i get the struggle with that you know because you know i've been like even with like fucking statins you know like you know i had to go in like i have high cholesterol okay and then there's this whole camp of people like no you don't need to stand just do diet so like i do diet and i can't get it down because it's a genetic component to it and then they're like well how they're not really sure how important cholesterol is. I'm like, I went to a cardiologist who said that if you take these, no more plaque might come.

You might not, you know, it might not ever get worse, the plaque. Cardiologist said that to me. So you want me not to believe him? Where's your degree? And you, you've been looking around the internet. Everybody's got, everybody's got an opinion. Yeah. Everybody's got an opinion in the tribe. But, but my, but like no one wants to be on medicine. You know, you don the internet. Everybody's got an opinion. Yeah, everybody's got an opinion in the tribe.

But no one wants to be on medicine. You don't know. Of course. Right. So I mean, I'm good. I can fix it. Yeah. But at some point, you have to realize, sometimes medicine's good.

Yeah. Yeah. There's no polio. Yeah. No, but there's this weird thing with holistic. Yes, come on. What are you going to drink? How much St. John's work can you take? No, exactly. yeah you know but there's this weird thing with like holistic yes you know like we can drink how much st john's work can you take no exactly you know this tea you'll do it no you won't no you can do it i know and the funny thing is like all that stuff connected to me because i

for a while like this is a funny thing was i after like when i got these conspiracy theories i was like look i'm gonna be super responsible yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna do yoga every like i feel like there's a component of this there's a component of this that is psychophysical yeah yeah like if i can have a steady blah blah and i did that and of course like you know i had another like episode i was like because it's linked to this idea like i mean part of the idea of madness in general is that consciousness it's all our collective idea of sanity right right like so if we if i was on a mountaintop with a bunch of like you know other crazy we were behaving this way it might be okay

yeah but in terms of sanctioned american society sure like there are things in our society that are crazy yeah like we all agree on them yeah that we don't we eat no i get it we eat cows but we don't eat dogs yeah but you know it's crazy but like you can hold this right but yeah i mean if you wanted to hold the space of the guy that you know can't function in a workspace and yeah occasionally hospitalized you can do that exactly exactly and i was like i'd rather like have an acting career like and like be able to like sit down and do a podcast this podcast would be funny if i wasn't yeah yeah i should come back for that let me know i'll get your new number we'll talk about elves on the side of the yeah when you decide it's a good week not to not to be on medicine we'll talk about the shadow

government then yeah we'll get into it i'll bring you some cocaine as well oh boy get into it. I'll bring you some cocaine as well. We'll both get into it. That's going to be a big day. We'll just end our careers live on the air. That would be amazing. It would be crazy. That would be my favorite day ever. Yeah. And then we just disappear. Yeah.

You'll be like, did you hear that thing that David and Mark did? I don't know where they are. They just beat each other to death in that studio, apparently. Did you have another episode as bad as the original one? Not as bad. Right. Not as bad. So, Stranger Things, I have to assume that you did not anticipate to be a rock star at Comic-Con.

No. Like, as a 40-year-old man. Do you know what I mean? No, I don't. When I was 22, I maybe had fantasies. like as a 40 year old man you know what i mean like when i was never 22 like i you know i maybe had fantasies but yeah when you hit 40 you're kind of like i mean so when i hit like i think when i hit 35 it was kind of like that that idea is over but to be part of something is sort of interesting and you had no idea right you took you know but you liked you liked the role when

you well yeah i mean I read the script. The pilot script was like, I love that pilot script. I thought it was amazing. Yeah. And I actually didn't think I'd get cast, and then I wound up getting cast. Yeah. It's a big Netflix show. Sure.

Yeah. And then, and I didn't think they wanted to take a chance on me. But did they really know that it was going to be big before, I mean, how does anyone know anything? I don't think they knew, but still the thing at the time. It wasn't based on a comic or anything, right? It's an original. No, no, no, original.

But I didn't know that, I didn't know that Netflix was doing that many series. Like now it seems like they're doing everything, but at the time it felt like kind of like a big deal. But when we were shooting it about four episodes in, I thought, yeah, no one's going to watch this. I thought like, you know, this is not, I'm not good and it's not good. And it didn't help by like, you know, this is not, I'm not good and it's not good.

Yeah. And it didn't help by like, you know, like we were all just like, you know, we were working really hard, but we were in a bubble. Yeah. Like nobody cared. Where'd you shoot it? Atlanta. Oh yeah.

I like the kids. So I get, it was clear the balance between the kids and then, you know, like all the other shit. Yeah. You know, they chose the kids you know because you got to have that yeah you know right yeah but they got some good kids yeah yeah yeah so okay so four episodes in you're shooting it you're like oh my god now i gotta go i just thought it was like look at the i mean in a long line of failures it was like sort of a not not not

tremendous i mean i'm being a little bit hyperbolic but there were like i don't know if you've had these projects, but like you have a project where everybody's like patting themselves on the back. Yeah. And also they come up to you and they're like, your life's going to change. Right.

And you're like, yeah. I've had that happen to me. I'm ready. Yeah, for about like 10 years. You know, I shot this movie, Revolutionary Road. And I remember like all of us. I like that movie. Yeah.

So it's good. Yeah. But I remember that being like us everyone's sitting around and being like oh is that after brokeback and it yeah it was after broken yeah well you had a little smaller part yeah but it was a bit of a big but it just didn't it just had no like i was still like living in my little studio barman yeah auditioning yeah people being like yeah we don't really like him you know and i was like wow like it'll never like it'll never change i'm gonna be kind of that guy who like can occasionally get by and like make money and like do theater like i do feel like i had a home in theater yeah but we um but then i got to so when i was shooting that like my expectations are extremely low but what what about with Black Mass?

Well, like even that, it's like. It's a supporting role. Yeah, like you're in Denzel's movie. Like nobody really cares. You're in Johnny Depp's movie. You know what I mean? Like nobody really cares. People within the industry, people are like,

hey, did a great job. Or occasionally some guy came up to the street. But it wasn't. Like great character actor. You're going to be a great character actor. Yeah, but even less than that. Because it wasn't like, character actor you're gonna be a great character but even less than that because it wasn't like i don't live in hollywood yeah so i live in new york right so it was kind of like you dip in and out okay yeah but it wasn't like casting directors were like throwing me offers and people were like sure really like wanting me in their movies right it was kind of like when we haven't cast apart we'll call him in

yeah and we'll see if he does a good job and maybe so so you were ready for the stranger things well i mean i didn't think it would ever happen but i was fine with that like i was living in new york and i was doing plays but also i was doing and my thoughts had always been plays and so there was even a moment when like i had auditioned for black mass yeah and i got offered um another play in new york there was a big deal sort of thing. Yeah. And I thought to myself, like, I thought to myself, I was like,

you know, New York will, I think that New York theater there's more of a community. Right. Whereas like Hollywood, you're just a commodity, right? Sure. Like if you do well,

if people like you, if your movies make money. A commodity and a heightened community. Yeah, but if your movies make money, we'll hire you. Sure. But if they don't,

like, who cares? Whereas like in New York theater, there's more of a sense of like we want to see you develop as an artist we want to see what you can do we want to support you even if you're everything you do is not right so i just i remember like even in black mass having this moment where i was like you know hollywood's not going to care about me so i'm and kind of thinking about giving that up yeah ultimately i took it yeah well yeah it was uh some drama around that

but i uh but yeah i ultimately did it but it it's how i've always had this relationship with hollywood it's been like i can go there and make some money yeah but like i'll never really put my heart in it and i'd grown really cynical like even doing those movies which i felt like i was doing like good okay work but it wasn't like when i'd go to work i was just very cynical and i was very like yeah what do you want me to do like carry a gun like run around like okay you know i mean i i had grown well for better for worse i had grown somewhat cynical sure because i was like a lot of shots yeah i had some shots and i was like i just don't have it and also like the film business is weird for me because i don't i don't that bad of an actor, but I do look at my face sometimes on film.

And I'm like, oh, God. I mean, you know what I mean? What do you see? It's ugly. I mean, you just see double chins and you see weird width of the face. Oh, sure. The old weird width of the face problem.

Don't you have idiosyncratic things about yourself that you see in pictures and you're just like there are times dude where where i go to the bathroom and i can't look in the mirror i do the exact same thing i go pee i avoid myself i do the exact same thing where and i was working with yeah and there was somebody um somebody who's helping me design my apartment they were like we could put a big mirror here and i was like i don't want mirrors i don't want any mirrors they're like well in the bathroom i was like debatable we'll talk about it we'll talk about it not not today though when i tried i'm like yeah hiding from myself as as i walk by to the shower you know there's that play uh no exit by

john paul and the one of the the things they're in hell. And one of the things is there's no mirrors. And I was like, how's that hell? It's great. No body image issues. Hell sounds like heaven. Exactly. That's great. But anyway, yeah, so I'd grown very single.

So this was another one of these opportunities where like my expectations were extremely low. And then we're in there shooting it. And I do think like I look like hell. And I think like, and I'm scared. And so when it, before it came out, I was scared. And then I was actually doing a play with a guy who was on a very successful TV show. Right. And before it came out, like a week, three weeks before it came out, there was no ads

in New York. No ads on buses. They'd lost hope already? And then a week before it came out no ads anywhere no ads anywhere okay why well I talked to him and I was like yeah there's no ads that uh you know he was like they're burying it they're trying to bury it and I was like oh my god my one fucking shot and like they're burying my show and then it came out and it was like a zeitgeist. Well, you never know

what Netflix is going to get behind. Yeah. But also like what, like I don't know what they did for Glow but they claim now in hindsight. That they did it on purpose? Exactly. Which it was a brilliant marketing campaign

where people have ownership of this show because they discover it and they tell their friends. And it is kind of brilliant when you think about it, if that is the case, because that is what happened. But I think it might just be looking at what happened. That would be a fine sort of thing to believe if they didn't actually bury other shows.

Like if they did actually leave many shows hanging that they actually produced, that would be a great genius exactly there wasn't tons of evidence to the contrary yeah like it like a detective what's going on here no but either way they do produce so much shit so some shit is going to have to find its audience and and this is the kind of thing, you know, it is in the realm of things that have this, if the thing activates that audience, if it appeals to that community, then, you know, it lives there forever. There are people that are, you know, I'm sure creating, you know, backstories to things.

They have, you know, mystery, they have questions. Fan fiction. Yeah. All that stuff. Right. backstories to things they have you know mystery they have questions fan fiction yeah all that stuff right and there's also the comic like for some reason the genre shows yeah are those shows that like stick around and have few followings and stuff like that yeah and you know and it's sort of like in fantasy in and of itself though it's never been my thing though it seems to be coming my thing a little more and then ultimately what is in fantasy but um but you know they you

know people get very loyal to them and if yeah and if the show stays good you know they're they're there for it yeah so you're surprised by it so you're okay no here we're still at you freaking out that they're burying it and then what happened yeah i'm backstage and he's like you know and then he might get a script the guy he's the one yeah no he was the worst he was like like reviews came out too and he was like it would probably be like a you know

respected show in some way but people aren't gonna watch it there are tons of those shows on Netflix going on like Hulu and all the shows where everybody's like oh it's so good

yeah I don't watch it how can you watch everything well that's the thing there's just too many and look I think and again you might not be the target audience for this conversation,

but I so believe the show is brilliant. Yeah. Not only on a sci-fi level, but it has so much heart and soul. Exactly. And it's a simple story. That's why I can't stop watching it. Yeah. It really is watchable.

It bridges. In a way that like, and the other funny thing was like, we had some reviews come out for second season that were were kind of negative. But the reviews are so funny because they're like, yeah, it wasn't so good. I watched the shit out of it from beginning to end immediately. But eh. And I'm like, what show do you do that? That's hard to do. the strange human component that not only the kids bring to a certain degree,

but that you and, and writer bring, you know, having had lives and having had, you know, you know, like she brings something, you know,

just by virtue of who she is, but she's acting the fuck out of this. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, you guys have,

you know, both have had your problems that are, that are very upfront in the, in the first season and, and devastating. So, you know both have had your problems that are that are very up front in the in the first season and and devastating so you know between you you're very grown-up sort of dispositions and character shortcomings uh as the characters you know i'm not you know you're doing a good job with it but you're flawed people yeah yeah and and the weird sort of you know um uh excitement of these overly bright kids that you know you you transcend you know when you fall into the hole you know like you yeah that transcends genre in that way well

no it's just sort of still a human that human element is so strong yeah that you you know you're gonna you're not gonna be like you know what what are all those snakes exactly and why can you just step on them you know so like right, yeah. That's a great question, though. Now that I think about it. Oh, Jesus. Get me a new script. The last time I saw those snakes, there was something laying eggs in the kitten. What are they doing to him?

But because you're hooked in to hop and you're like, he's going to get out of there. You're not like, where's the egg laying snake? How many more of these fucking, where's the rest of it? You're just willing to go with it because you just get on the ride. You have to be. But you're right. That's an example of character because you care about the characters. You're paying much more attention to their reaction to something

than to the actual something. Sure. I'm right at the last thing I watched last night was Will in a seizure because he's now feeling the evil of the thing there you go yeah yeah there you go and i'm like you know now like you know are we ever gonna save this kid you know does is will just gonna we put this kid through so much we put this kid through so much you know

what there actually was this is so funny because i speak of punching bags so they they had at one point you know because i talked to them a little bit as they develop. Like I go in the room sometimes and I'll talk to them about ideas. And at one point I had said to them, because in season one, I punch a lot of people in the face. And it was like one of my favorite things about that character is that he has a Harrison Ford type quality where when he gets confused, he just like punches somebody. And in season two, I had no punches in the face. Like I don't punch anybody the whole season. And they were like, we're going to give you a really good punch. And I was like, what is the, they were like, no, it's going to be great.

I was like, what is it? What is it? And they were like, Will, when he goes into a seizure on the football field, like nobody can get him out of the seizure. And you punch him in the face. And he comes out of the seizure. And then finally they were like, that's a terrible idea. I was finally they were like that's a terrible idea I was like yeah it's a terrible idea

I loved it but it was so crazy it was like yeah you can't have him punch like the kid is a literal punching bag at that point what else can we do to Will Byers let's get Hopper to punch him in the face cause that's what he needs yeah he's been beat up in two dimensions

it's true that poor kid that poor kid that poor guy oh yeah i know but like i'm gonna finish it up and uh so you're in season two now and when does hellboy start uh we shot it you did yeah we shot it in uh this fall how long did that take? Like four months. Really? Yeah. In Sofia, Bulgaria. So you had it in Bulgaria? Yeah. So you were in the makeup? Yeah.

But see, it's all happening. It's all happening now. How cynical are you now? Oh, I know. About the movie business? I'm so grumpy. Can I still be grumpy about problems? Did you call Perlman up?

We did. We had dinner. Oh, yeah? We had dinner, yeah. Oh, so Perlman passed the reins onto you? A little bit. I mean, it was not a great situation. Sure.

How many had he done? Two or one? I think they did two. Him and Guillermo del Toro. Yeah, right. And they, I think, wanted to make their third trilogy, but I think a lot of issues came up. I think budgets were too big.

I think that they took a lot of time. They waited too long and stuff. And so I think that they, you know, they wanted to do something else. They wanted to do something different with it. And then they came to me. It was a very different concept, very different idea. And there was initially some bluster around it.

And I think everybody was like, kind of got it. And Ron got it and came. And so, yeah, we had dinner and he was like, of got it yeah and ron got it yeah and came and so yeah we had dinner and he was like he was just really cool you know i think that the one thing that's a little weird is like you know everybody now asks him about it and i think he's annoyed at that sure and so he said some things on twitter and stuff where he's like just don't ask me anymore and i think that's fucking don't ask him anymore yeah but i he did sort of you know he likes me he was very kind to me. And he was like, good luck.

He'd like do it. He's a nice guy. And he knows the business. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you like that. You think it's going to be a good movie? I do.

Yeah. And were you able to bring some of that, your flaws and heart to Hellboy? Of course. Okay. Underneath like pounds and pounds of prosthetics. There's just a self-hating guy that doesn't like mirrors. Yeah, I mean, it's right up my alley. Like, who are you going to call?

Yeah, the guy hasn't looked at a mirror in a long time. Yeah. And where are you done? You're shooting Stranger Things now? No, we start in, yeah, we start in like a month. The third season? Yeah, season three. Now, how many scripts do you see up front?

We usually see four to six oh really yeah of the eight so though so that's good for you because you like to know how at least something's gonna end i want to know the whole i want to know the whole arc yeah and so i actually tell you are they done writing i do know oh the general yeah arc but it uh but to me it's even important like in terms of how that stuff plays out because i do like to structure stuff up front like. Like if I know that the guy's going to talk a lot in the end, like, do you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of things about an actual script that are different than a

pitch. Right. But I, uh, but I do know what's kind of going to happen. I'm excited about it. It's really, it's really good.

Yeah. It's fine. I mean, the ideas are amazing. and what, what, what's poor will going to be dragged to the center of the earth this season. We're going to try to completely rip him apart.

You know what the character that I have the most sympathy for, though? The one that gets beat up the most? The buyer's wall phone. Wall mounted phone. Gets every season at some point. You'll see you haven't gotten there yet. Just gets like people just ripping it off, throwing it and yeah makes will buyers look like yeah yeah yeah oh the poor phone the poor phone well look man i think we covered it i think we did good yeah that was

great i feel a little buzzed yeah right no i had a good time okay i had a good time. Okay. I had a good time. Thanks for coming. Thank you. That was exciting. No. Yeah, sure. It was. Absolutely. It was.

Absolutely. It was. Oh, did I mention, I should mention that my friend Lynn Shelton's movie outside in is now available on Netflix. You should watch that with the Duplass, the J Duplass and Edie Falco. Great movie. You should watch that on the Netflix. And also, I guess I'll play guitar.

I've gotten two compliments about how the guitar sounds in here. Not my playing necessarily, but the sound quality. Thank you. Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

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