WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 926 - Dave Itzkoff / Robin Williams from 2010

Episode Date: June 20, 2018

New York Times culture reporter Dave Itzkoff came into Robin Williams's life right around the same time Marc talked to Robin for WTF. Dave and Marc share notes on what they learned about this one-of-a-kind comedic performer, how his death affected the world, and what Dave was able to glean from working with Robin to write his biography. Then, after their conversation, hear the full interview Marc conducted with Robin back in 2010. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. How you doing? You losing sleep like everyone should be? Are you? Is your conscience weighing heavy on you as it should be it's it's difficult you know good morning good afternoon good evening how are you everything okay in the car everything okay with the kids everything okay at work is it how's it going on the treadmill you doing all right how's that How's your dog? That's a nice looking dog.

Hope everything's okay. Did everything turn out all right at the thing? All right. Just checking in with as many people as I can. Is your eye okay? Is your ear okay? Is your fingers okay? That thing with your stomach work out?

How's that foot? Your foot all right? How's the toe? Did that? It wasn't that bad, right? You know, you're asleep for most of it, right? And you don't even feel what's happening. You'd think it'd be embarrassing, but you don't feel it and you don't know what's happening.

But it was clear? Good. How's everyone doing? Should I start again? Are we okay? Today on the show, the author of Robin, the biography of Robin Williams, Dave Itzkoff, is here. We had a great chat, mostly about Robin Williams, and we thought it would be good to play the full interview with Robin that we did in 2010 after the discussion in its entirety. So we're going to do that. Thank you for donating to Rieses, which is how you pronounce it apparently, you can still donate to help out with legal representation and bond for immigrants who are immigrant families who have been separated, deported, and whatnot. You can always give to the ACLU as well. Always a good charitable donation.

ACLU is one of the organizations that is keeping this country a democracy by the skin of its teeth. So I'm going to talk to David Scoff. He's the culture reporter for the New York Times. And he's on the show to talk about his biography of Robin Williams called Robin, which I read, which was great.

I read most of it at the time that I talked to him. I'm very good at almost finishing books before I talk to people who wrote them. But I want to make it clear again that after the interview, we're going to play the full interview I had with Robin Williams back in 2010. Since many of you have never heard it and some of you might want to hear it again after listening to dave uh and myself talk about it we figured it's best to just post it here rather than make you go pay for our premium archives or go hunt for a bootleg version so first me and dave talking about robin and a lot more and then a full robin interview from 2010 this is me and Dave Itzkoff. What, did you rent a car? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was in the Bay Area at the start of the week, then came down to, like first thing Thursday morning, I came down to Burbank,

do some stuff out there, and yeah, just rented a car out there and been driving around. So the Bay Area, so that's Robin Land. Yeah, that's why we did it there, yeah. What'd you do? I did a bunch of radio stuff, but then I was also doing live events, in-store appearances in other places. The first one was in Corridor Madera, which is just outside Tiburon. His old high school was literally walking distance from that store. And what were the crowds like?

Did they were they robbing people? Yeah. Yeah. That was like packed out kind of deal or what? No. I mean, they were very, very nice people. Not people who not that they knew him personally, but they all had encountered him in their daily lives over the years. Like one woman whose daughter had gone to ballet class with his daughter back in the day yeah like those kinds of

connections right but all like extremely uh not like they have they have a sense of like ownership of him but they you know they loved him and they really like appreciated what he brought to their communities yeah you know sure man i mean i i guess I was at that last Tiburon house. Yeah. I don't know if you'll remember, because we had a conversation. Me and you? Yeah, we talked. I wound up using more of the stuff that you told me, I think, about the Throckmorton Theater scene there, but we did talk about your interview. When he was up in the balcony? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah but uh yeah no you uh

you know i imagine we'll get into it yeah but you've certainly caught him you know in that same period of time yeah oh yeah you know what was interesting what i'm getting around to and and i think i can you know reveal now is that when i spent that that day with robin or that hour or two yeah which i think you know seems to to be one of the few candid conversations that exists in a public sphere with him. Yeah. You know, outside of him ruminating and riffing on suicide, which oddly, Jonathan Winters did too in my interview with him.

Oh, man. I wish I had looked that up because that's, I mean, that's a little eerie. I mean, he definitely, you know, Winters was a wounded figure too. And, you know, he- That was quite a day, dude. Wow. I'll definitely look that up. That's extraordinary.

Well, it was like he was riffing about therapy and about the, you know, sort of like he was sort of oddly conservative in some ways. Yeah. And, you know, he had a in his riff it was a therapist telling the the patient to go put a gun in his mouth or go like something you know like wow it was different but it came around the same time in the interview that as as the one that i did with robin it was very bizarre wow but uh but the the other thing about robin is that you know we had to jump through a lot of hoops to talk to him. I'm sure. Primarily because of how insulated his people kept him because of this, of what you tracked

and what tracks as the thing with Disney and about how people use his image and stuff to promote. Yeah. It seemed to be their primary concern that there was a window to this thing and that it would only be used in a certain way. Oh, interesting. I could see that. Yeah.

I mean, they just, you know, his managers were, I mean, just in general, I think so. I mean, you know, they understood on some level that they treated him, I think, like a commodity, you know?

Yeah, and it seems like in the book that he's pretty pissed off about Disney using the Aladdin in the many ways that they did outside of the parameters of his deal with them.

And that's, I mean, that's a rare instance of at least, you at least a public situation where he really kind of pushed back against that or even displayed any kind of disappointment or anger in that way. But there was a lot of, certainly in those last few years of his career, I mean, there was a lot more protectiveness than perhaps there needed to be or a lot less risk-taking.

I mean, so much about the business and the culture had changed, and he could have stand to take even more chances. I thought it was really interesting when he did that Broadway play that was sadly short-lived, the one Bengal Tiger at the Baghdad Zoo. But that was such

a great performance and a perfect role for him, and he really could have done more stuff like that that sure well i mean it seemed like he did it in the smaller movies but the the thing that struck me when i was in tiburon at the house right outside of the fact that we couldn't take a picture or anybody could sort of identify where we were oh so we did we had rebecca took a picture of us right right but the thing i'm getting at was that there was a room in robin's house where i was getting ready to leave after we talked.

He's like, oh, come here, I want to show you something. And I'm like, all right. And he's like, you can't tell anybody about this. And his Robin voice, which I can only do occasionally. Ooh. So he brings me to this room, and in this room are the soldiers. Yeah, yeah. And they're all equally spaced there's no

clutter to it they're the same type same size which is kind of larger than a gi joe in my recollection okay but they were like sort of like these meticulously done toy soldiers that were about like in my mind foot foot and a half tall is that right that could be i mean you know i don't know what he had other than like inventories that i've seen in like some of the legal papers i don't i don't know like the exact quantity or you know the inventory that he had it seemed like a very specific style and of the same manufacturer okay you know and they're all set up in this room almost a museum light that could be yeah and he was like don't tell anybody about this i'm like this is the big secret?

This is the thing you're hiding from everybody? Is this room full of toy soldiers? Right. Maybe I didn't know enough about them to make a judgment. They looked like a bunch of scale models. Right. I didn't think it was that big of a secret that he was a big aficionado of that sort of thing. That's funny. Yeah, no. He kind of swore me to secrecy on that.

Right. Everything that you went through in that day and that experience, and that's the thing that he... Yeah, he came clean about joke stealing, about relapsing, about suicidal thoughts, about his heart. But don't tell anybody about the soldier. It's going to stay between us, man.

Well, you did keep the secret. I did, until now. But now, after I read the book, it's like, clearly, I'm an idiot keep the secret i did till now but now after i read the book it's like clearly i'm an idiot all he talked about was fucking toy soldiers so life was toy soldiers it is an important thread yeah i mean clearly but that's well yeah because you sort of track it to i think rightfully so to the unleashing of his imagination as a lonely kid yeah you know in an with these, with enough money to have fully, full armies to riff with.

Well, literally like the first, the friends, the friends I could find who knew him the furthest back, I mean, the ones from like middle school, even they are like, the things they would tell me, like they marveled at the fact that like,

that was an era when the kids all had like the little cheap plastic ones. And what they remembered is that he was the kid that had like the little cheap plastic ones. And what they remembered is that he was the kid that had like the good metal soldiers. Like he was well off enough that his parents could get that for him and that made him stand out, that distinguished him.

Yeah, a couple of people remembered it. So let me ask you this though, before we embark on some of this stuff, I'm curious about is that, you know, why this subject matter, number one, and you know, what, what I know what compelled me, it wasn't just because he was a comic and I was doing comedy. I had a reason. Right.

My reason was that I literally do no matter how I felt about him as a comic coming up, you know, which for my generation was, is relatively dismissive, you know, in the sense that, you know, he in the sense that he was very specific. He was always unto himself, but whether it was for joke stealing or fake improv or whatever it was, there was something saccharine. And it wasn't so much that there wasn't love for him,

there was just sort of like, ugh, Robin. But I got mad when the generation below mine these 20 year olds were dismissing him i'm like look we knew exactly we had we earned our right well at least we took into mind that he achieved anything and everything a comic would want to do right you know whether we liked him or not wasn't the point there was a respect for his achievement he was you know he started out as a comic and did everything any comic wanted to do. Yeah. At least somewhat. So who are you to condescend?

Like my compulsion was to make sure that, you know, that he got the respect that he deserved. Right. Now, that was my intent. You know, and outside of like, I didn't know what I would get out of him. Right. I had no anticipation of anything. No, no. You couldn't have gone in knowing that it would be the conversation that you had.

Sure. Well, I was lucky. And I think you made a point in here here and i don't know who said it i don't know if it was you or somebody else in the book that like if there's more than one person there he's gonna put on a show yeah if it's really if it's two people you're fucked but the fact that there was nobody around which i don't think happened very often yeah yeah you know there was no reason to entertain and also because i was a comic and he did like me and he knew me a bit yeah but what was your reason it's funny because I it almost parallels yours I obviously I didn't experience him the way that a fellow comedian would I'm not a performer I have no desire to be

but I also had an experience that was somewhat akin to yours because I had written about him the year earlier and I had spent time with him on the road when he was restarting that weapons of self-destruction tour. conversation the uh the relapse into alcoholism the rehab yeah the divorce uh the heart problems and all i knew for the most part about him at that point was what everybody thinks they know is his body of work and i was a little wary only because these are very like sensitive things to have to bring up to somebody yeah celebrities in particular kind of guarded people this was in the interview yeah that literally like i i had spoken to him once before because i wrote a piece about um world's greatest dad really more of a profile of bobcat and i thought that was a terrific film and of course you know he was a voice in in that piece and yeah even in that that was just a phone conversation but i just remember how kind of subdued he was and very relatively easy to talk to and that did not jive with my

expectation or what i thought he would be and then in the course of these conversations on this larger story everything came out of him i mean you could just kind of all you had to do was kind of scratch the surface and just this uh outpouring of maybe not emotion, but just honesty and candor about, we definitely didn't talk about suicide and certainly not in the way that you did with him. But all the other things, and I think a very clear understanding on his part of, or at least his feeling that, you know, he'd really hurt and wounded people with his behavior when he was getting drunk again. Yeah. The real desire to want to be sober, the commitment to that. So just the fact that he was so open about himself. Yeah.

Really just put himself on the table. That surprised you. Yeah. And that compelled you to or made you assume and believe that there was more to this guy than you assumed. Yes. And again, even, you know, we were one-on-one and he would still occasionally, you know, throw out a voice just passingly.

Sure. But it's only got one place to land. Yeah. Right. I mean, and we're right. He's doing it. You know, he wants to get, he still wants to get the laugh out of you. He's putting himself at ease a little bit because you're unfamiliar to him, and that's a way for him to make himself comfortable.

That was all interesting. I tell the story in the book, but also in the course of working on this story, and this wasn't meant for consumption in that article. He wasn't trying to butter me up. But then just in our chit-chat, I him that we both we discovered that we were both big comic book fans right collectors yeah and i mentioned the store that i like to go shopping at in new york and he's like oh i go there the next time i'm in new york well maybe we'll go there and like it's like one of those things that like celebrities just say to you when you're writing about them it's like they don't really mean that that's never gonna happen they're just

trying to you know make you write nice things about them. But then he actually did. Like, a few weeks later, and the story wasn't done. He called me up. He was in New York, I think, to see Zach and maybe do some other stuff. And we went shopping. And it was a really, I mean, it was just a nice thing to do. And I later discovered that, of course, he did lots of generous things like that that for people things that were easy for him to do that were very meaningful to the other

people um but also just to see how people reacted to him in a just a public setting where he's totally unguarded unprotected and the uh you know the way people's jaws just dropped to encounter him like that. That was very, I'm not saying that's the sole reason I wanted to do it, but that experience was memorable. Yeah, because there's that fine line between, but I don't think that he, I think he definitely is on the other side of it,

but there is a line between, is this generosity coming from a different manifestation of the need for recognition and attention? It could be. And to be thought of in a certain way. But I don't know. I think he was generous. Yeah. And that was the few times that I hung out with him or met him. You know, it was weird, you know.

It was just because you're sitting there at the comedy cell or whatever. He'd show up. And I can't remember the first time I met him. But I remember, like, he took some interest in my one man show. I don't know why, but I just remember one time, like in New York, when I lived there,

I got a message like Mark is Mark. This is Robin. Oh yeah. I can't do his voice, but hello, Mark. It's Robin, you know,

like, you know, and he started talking. He said, you should, we should talk about your one person show and making it in. And I'm like, what's happening? You know, and then I try, and he started talking. He said, we should talk about your one-person show and making it. And I'm like, what's happening? You know, and he didn't leave a number or nothing.

And I ended up calling Shapiro. And he's like, what? He called you? I don't know. It just fucking went nowhere. But, you know, after all was said and done, I was happy he had my number. And he gave me a call. And I think he left me another message once before about something.

call and i think we he'd left me another message once before about something but you know to sit with him his real self was clearly a shy unassuming person yes and like being a a product of a depressive you know i if i think back on it you know it was always sort of there i could there was a nag of it there yeah yeah i think not to pat myself on the back too much or plug myself but to even start to really learn the some of the facts about his upbringing in his childhood his parents and you i think it's like the rosetta stone that you you really understand once you once you see who his parents were it's like a mathematical equation it's like you put those two together. And of course, the outcome is going to be a child and a person like Robin.

Right. Who, on the one hand, gets a lot of the exuberance of his mother and the humor from her. But also the lack of attention from both of them, or at least what he perceived as a lack of attention. Right. And then it then sort of like being introduced to these half-brothers. Yeah. I found that what was

interesting was how he came to it. Like, I couldn't help but after reading it that there is some that he seemed almost like he was on the sort of more enlightened part of the spectrum somewhere. Yeah. But I don't know that he was ever diagnosed with that, but enlightened part of the spectrum somewhere yeah but i don't know that he was ever diagnosed with that but it just seems you know what i mean i don't know it's

just something just kind of i don't know he was just like so attuned to things kind of touched yeah and even in the way you know you know again i'm going to plug myself but like in the book the stories that some of his friends tell about their experiences right when he died and the way that they kind of felt like the universe was communicating to them in different ways. Like Jeff Bridges running into Radio Man at the premiere for his new movie and thinking that he sees Robin or, you know, Terry Gilliam being in London and watching that Family Guy episode, that was actually pretty nasty to Robin. Right. But all these little things, you know, just kind of being, it's just a weird thing. You know, somebody who is just a little bit more sort of tapped into

how things work and how people work than most of the population. Well, I think the big thing about when he died and how he died, the idea of not having him on the planet was a problem for me. And it was a sad blow, but nothing surprises me necessarily. I mean, I think that when the world's clown kills himself,

that it does have bigger implications than just a guy killing himself but but i think the one thing none of us knew was how long he was sick and just how sick he was yeah and and you know i talked to bobcat who was you know after the fact yeah who was cagey about it it's like well people don't really know what was happening yeah and but you really tell what was happening well because it came out in his autopsy and because other people did eventually like what i'm saying that people around him oh yeah it seems that for at least a year they watched him they didn't know what was happening but he was he was coming unhinged and physically and mentally yeah yeah and with somebody who's

had a history of drug use you know you, you just assume like, oh, fuck. But like no one knew that he had this mental sickness. Yeah. Yeah. Well, just to I mean, to back up just to the, you know, the circumstances of his death or the world learning about his death. And it did lead to a kind of mythologizing of that, too. of that too or the the fact that everybody's kind of first instinct is like you know the cliche of the sad clown or the you know right and there's an aspect to it but we don't really even know how conscious of a decision it was on on his part and in terms of how delusional he was it's possible i mean there there are people that i spoke to uh you know dana

carvey told me that story about running into him at the throckmorton a few weeks prior and really feeling like robin was trying to kind of making this made an amends for joke stealing yeah kind of a settling of accounts there are people who do feel it's also part of sobriety though that's true that's true but billy crystal i I think also, I mean, he doesn't have an equivalent experience, but also sort of alludes to the idea of, you know, that there was a conscious decision. But we don't know that. Oh, that would have implied foresight too. At least, you know, according to the police report, like they searched his computer. They did not find like Google searches of methods of suicide, for example. There was no evidence of suicidal ideation as far as they could find, which is unusual. It's not it doesn't preclude anything, but unusual. So there's evidence either way, I suppose. But the idea, I mean, people's, I think, first, first sort of instincts or

assumptions before we knew anything was this was a guy who was somehow upset about wherever he was in life, the state of his career, maybe financial trouble, maybe it's still all, you know, far out speculation. And therefore he did X. And then I think the conversation kind of evolved to a conversation about mental health and awareness and how you can reach out to people who may be having problems of that nature. And it's I'm sure it was a very helpful conversation for people, but I don't know that it quite described what Robin. Well, yeah, because the last part of the puzzle was Parkinson's. Right. Well, then, right, a week later after his death, the statement comes out that he'd been recently diagnosed with Parkinson's, which he had.

In his own lifetime, he was given a diagnosis of Parkinson's. Yeah, but it sounds like, to me, that I don't know when that timeline starts on his physical manifestations that initially were dismissed as hypochondriacal or anxiety-based, but some of them sound fairly dramatic, how long that was going on, that you can sort of backload those were symptoms. Yeah. And that he was, it wasn't cocaine, it wasn't alcohol that was fueling these paranoiac flights of delusion.

No, no. But it was a sickness but i think even even when the statement about the parkinson's diagnosis you know came out when that was made public i think it's still i can't speak for everybody but i think it still steered people in the direction or the assumption that okay he he knew or had learned he had something that was going to be degenerative and progressive. And so, again, that he made a kind of active choice so that he wouldn't, you know, suffer over a long period of time, that he made this choice to end his life. And, again, I don't want to say definitely yes. I don't want to say definitely yes. I don't want to say definitely no because I don't know. But I don't think there's, you know, there's a difference, of course, between Lewy body and Parkinson's.

And that's something that wasn't learned until many months later. And I just wonder if, you know. What's Lewy body? So that is akin to Parkinson's in that both of those diseases come from a buildup of protein in the brain, which is normally made in normal quantities, useful, but in excess, it becomes toxic. So with Parkinson's, that primarily is attacking the motor part of your brain. So that's why people with Parkinson's, they may have stooped posture or other movement problems, what they call clockwork rigidity,

the limbs kind of stop in certain places. Lewy body goes on to attack other parts of the brain that have to do with cognition, reasoning, and how you just even perceive stimuli and information. So the people who have that, they can have severe anxiety that basically becomes paranoia. Right. They can have wild mood that basically becomes paranoia. Right. They can have wild mood swings, drastic mood swings. They can have memory problems.

Right. Another common symptom of it is that the person will seem to kind of shut down in their own body. Right. They won't react to things. Yeah. You can see that a kind of a light is on, but they can go for minutes or hours just not reacting to anything. So those are all sort of separate from what a Parkinson's patient might have. So there was a thought that he might have had that?

Oh, he definitely had Lewy body. I should say in his autopsy, I mean, they analyzed brain tissue and they found those proteins and they found it in the parts of the brain that basically are consistent with Lewy body and people who knew him, spent time with him or encountered him in those last weeks and months certainly describe symptoms like consistent with that

so and again another of the symptoms, some people who have Lewy body experience hallucinations and delusions. So that's why I say, you know, we can't know exactly. Yeah, where the impulse came from. Yeah, what he was. But, you know, it's one of those things, right?

Whether you know that or not, there's a logic to it. You know, as somebody, you know, there's two types of people in the world. There's more than two. But, you know, the kind of person who thinks they're holding on to life no matter what. Yeah. You know, and certainly, you know, in the book you talk about his relationship with Christopher Reeve, you know, helping him, you know, being there right after the horrible accident when he's paralyzed. And really being a very available support system for a guy that you know couldn't feel anything below his neck yeah but but persisted with life yes obviously you're going to need help if you're him to kill yourself so you know what he thought in his dark

but he seemed to be a very proactive and sort of like i'm going to live this out and but you know there are those people and then there the people that are sort of like, I don't want to go down like that. Yeah. Well, I mean, let me just preface it by saying, you know, I just don't want to sort of put my finger on one side of the scale or the other too much, because to me, I think the factual record is ambiguous. Sure.

But now I'm going to contradict my own sort of preamble by saying, I think if you look at his body of work, especially now, there's this recurring theme of him expressing a fear about what's going to happen to me later in my life when I get older. On the one hand, the fear that I'm going to squander my career or my fans are going to desert me. And that stuck with him forever. Yes. So there's that aspect. After he'd done everything. Yeah.

And there is also the fear of what is going to happen to my body or what would happen to me if I started to experience something that was degenerative and incurable. And it crops up in, even going all the way back to his stand-up routines from the Roxy in the late 70s, you can see that through line. Right, the old man stuff.

Exactly. No, yeah, and I thought that was great that you were able to sort of seek some of that stuff out and talk about how, I don't remember who was talking about seeing that improvisation where he did the old robin and then ended up trimming it up was it prior who saw that the one manifestation of it which was more theatrical i i talked about that myself a little bit that when he does it like in the roxy special and that it's pretty clearly supposed to

be him as an old man but But wasn't there one where... Well, later when he does it, when you get... By the time you get to reality, what a concept, his first album. By that point, it's no longer meant to be him. The character has a name. He's much more kind of leering and sexual and full of innuendos. That aspect is kind of drowned out. Well, I think that was interesting too

about tracking, you know, obviously throughout the book, you feel that there's nobody like Robin Williams in terms of how his brain works, how he figured out how to piece together these bits and pieces into, you know, sometimes improv, sometimes seemingly improv, but that, you know, no segues

and, you know, the sort of rapid fire in that he was very quick. But also you don't dismiss the idea that a lot of his shit was repetitive and some of it was broad and some of the stereotypical voices were dubious on some level. Yeah, some of that stuff.

I mean, it's interesting to know why he likely had a fascination with Jews or with people of color, minority groups, gays. But certainly that material did not age especially well. Yeah, but you don't take, you can't deny what kind of moves through the whole book and even in your prose to a certain degree is this persistence and the energy of sort of creating in the moment. Yeah. You know, and also just his sort of dynamic control of stage presence and that, you know, that his presence in general was sort of, you know, had to be reckoned with once he took a stage. Yeah, it was kind of euphoric. was sort of had to be reckoned with once he took a stage.

Yeah, it was kind of euphoric. I guess somebody else used the word ecstatic, but I think that that's true. Yeah, and for someone like me, maybe someone like Overton or Bobby or these other cats that you talk to that knew him back then, like I didn't know him back then. And if you watch something, even if you watch live at the Roxy,

you do have that mediated distance that you could sort of go like, why is he climbing up that? You know what I mean? Yeah, when he's like climbing into the balconies. Right. Yeah. But Martin Short used to do the greatest impression of him. Did you ever see that old SCTV impression?

Is it scathing? No, no. It's very on the money. Oh, okay. But just by virtue of that, just by virtue of not being Robin, could appear scathing. Right. I see.

Yeah. Yeah. Because there's a ridiculousness to it. Sure. But they were obviously good friends. Yeah. But like, what I'm saying is, had I been there, what would that have felt like? You know, as a comic saying like, no, look at this fucking guy.

I mean, would I have responded, as you say in the book, that, you know, uh letterman yeah and uh who was it larry miller yeah like i guess it's over i guess whatever we're doing i thought that was extraordinary for somebody as clearly as talented as letterman was you know he's showing up in town from indiana and the comedy store yeah he's kicking off his career and clearly a you know a talent of his own and seeing what Robin is doing and just feeling like, if this is where comedy is going, what is there for me? I got to pack it in. That's right. But that's such a comic point of view. Yeah.

You know, that there's a singularity of where comedy is going. You know, like all of a sudden the existence of a Robin means that there's no reason for us to exist. But I think it does also point to, and Robin fell victim to this himself. With Jim Carrey, you said in the book. And definitely with Carrey and even before Carrey with Eddie Murphy, that, you know, the perception that it's, this is all a zero sum game. And if somebody is in ascendance, somebody else has to be in decline.

And most likely the person in decline is me. Yeah, but like it's zero sum game at a certain level with five guys at any one time. That's true. You know, what about the other thousand? Or what about the other 30 that are equally as famous but not that? Right. Like the idea that there's a king, you know, and that king will be eventually usurped or or or forgotten or or well i think he but i think rob i think it's true to some degree i think he had some you know

firsthand experience a reason to believe that i think particularly because of the experience of mork and mindy and how fast the kind of bottom fell out i didn't realize that see all this stuff in the book about how like you know the his the critical reaction to him and also the sort of you know things that he did that were not great and also you know just the fact that morgan mindy didn't even last long enough to be syndicated right whether it would have survived that anyways that like you know he it seems that really throughout his career in terms of how i read what you wrote is that you know the the good stuff that was said about him was far outnumbered by the shitty stuff that was said about him

critically later on yeah I mean certainly the the the ratio the balance gets all out of whack but if you go back and look at certainly even the initial response to to Mork and Mindy is just this outpouring of I mean mean, people immediately declaring him, this guy is the funniest guy on TV. This is the best new show of the season. It's a huge, and the numbers bear that out, that it's an immediate top five hit. Well, I think that what's interesting is that, you know,

it becomes clear from the book that, you know, once show business discovered him, they're like, now we got a cash cow here. Yeah. And, you know, in that, you know, everybody in this town in Los Angeles is like, this guy is a singular talent and no one's seen anything like it. Yeah. And then like, but, but it was sort of scary to me to see, to read, like just how easy it turns, man.

Yeah. And, and how there were forces out to, you know, not intentionally take them down. They, a lot of them coming from within him sure but but you know yet you know once you at or at that level of the game the the sort of expectation to perform is is overwhelming yeah well there's so much serendipity involved even in him getting cast as Mork the first time on Happy Days and all the people that have to pass on the role they're trying to get Jonathan Winters they're trying to get uh John Biner uh you know people of people who are real sort of first tier comedians at that time Dom DeLuise who just either passed or weren't available and they have to basically do a kind of uh fire sale mass audition to just get to him and to to to create the to sort of like you know deal with bringing new life into a show that's jump the shark literally literally that was the season

of the jump the shark episode exactly and so all and and then the episode doing pretty well and and gary marshall kind of on you know basically making the Mork and Mindy up out of thin air because ABC is just hungry for new shows and doesn't feel like they have anything better to go with that season. So all of that wonderful kind of happenstance working in Robin's favor. And then basically the very next season, all these other forces, as you mentioned, they move the time slot. They try to put it up against Archie Bunker's place, which is a huge mess mess they try to sort of move it away from the kind of family orientation make it more of a TNA type of show so almost within you know the very next year it's already sort of running out of gas and understandably so really yeah you know when you really frame it up like you did it's like where are you going to go with that premise right and they they tried to sort of get back to basics in the fourth season,

but by then, really, the writing was on the wall. That was the year that they finally brought Winters in as a cast member to play Mirth. Which was great for Robin and Jonathan. Yeah, it was fun for them, and I think gave Robin, it wasn't his idea, but gave him some incentive to kind of just ride it out, whatever it became. But I think the large lesson that he

took from that experience was that this could all go away in a minute and it's probably going to that something's whether by your control or not you're going to lose it all at some point he did in a way that that the pressure was all it was always on him like you don't get see like you know if you're operating it if you're like the funniest guy in the world or you're a singular talent that no one's ever seen before and it's in comedy it's a lot of pressure because it just doesn't happen that often yeah and and to hold that but like actors can go forever you know i mean they can do bad movies and still be movie stars comedians it's harder yeah especially someone who's trying to straddle what he's trying to straddle but i also like how in the book you really talk about him as a young man being a guy that comes from money but never having money

you know never having anything in his pockets being kind of smelly not changing his pants or his shirt you know running around in suspenders as harry man like the you know the constant reference to how hairy he is throughout the book is sort of you know it's an important theme i don't think it is i'm not diminishing it but like you do give a very good portrait of who he was as a young talent, as a young comic, and sort of being a comic, knowing that energy of running around, doing all these sets, how Mitzi reacted to him at the store. But I just really thought you sort of really put into perspective that part of his life. I appreciate that yeah i mean i think also what's interesting is understandably we've talked about the sort of comedy portion of his life that strain of his

career but that i think the comedy was something he kind of fell backwards into that he really wanted the the sincere passion of his was was acting and that's what he trained in and that's what he studied at three different colleges including Juilliard and then only ended up in comedy because he dropped out of Juilliard and came back to San Francisco at a time when comedy was happening again a different kind of comedy that that suited him well but yeah it seemed that that though he may have wanted to be an actor and you're telling of it which it sounds right to me, that the constraints of a role that he couldn't completely turn inside out on his own volition, just shy of rewriting it, was not that satisfying to him. No, I mean, certainly it's something that he bumps up against in his very first couple of film roles and in Popeye and in the world carding to Garp that you know his first two directors are Robert

Altman and George Roy Hill who are obviously not going to let him dick around but also both doing something they had not done before yeah as directors As directors. Right. You know, Altman kind of, you know, for different reasons. It was a really out-of-character movie for him. And, you know, he wasn't the first choice to direct it. No, no. And he hadn't handled a movie like that before. I didn't know any of that. Yeah.

I mean, it's wild to think that. I mean, of course, first of all, you know, it's Robert Evans, you know, producing it and assembling this whole thing and wanting dustin hoffman to play popeye but also uh you know uh wanting uh if he could have gotten you know john schlesinger to make it that was that was a choice of his or yeah really yeah yeah i mean who knows how much of it is evans just kind of putting these names out into the universe and just hoping like just by just by saying it, that it's going to. Jacked up, Evans. Coked up.

Like, God forbid, like, that the Hollywood wunderkind producer wouldn't bring in, like, you know, Minnelli or somebody. Not Liza. Her dad. What was his name? Vicente. Vicente might have been still around. Why not bring an actual musical director and resurrect? You know, you can have, like, these rebels. Yeah. Hal Ashby. Yeah. That would have been still around. Why not bring an actual musical director and resurrect? You can have these rebels.

Hal Ashby. Yeah, that would have been something. Maybe. Yeah, I don't know. But I don't know. I love Popeye. I probably am squandering all my credibility by saying that because it's such an offbeat movie. I liked it too because there was a darkness to it.

Yeah, I love the fact. The first half of the movie is him just being hated on by all the other residents of the town and having to win them over and having to prove to them that, you know, he has something to offer and can be one of them. And there's something really satisfying about that arc. I mean, then it kind of goes off the rails and they clearly ran out of money. Oh, some of the stuff you wrote about, about they didn't even have money for the octopus to work. some of the stuff you wrote about it but they didn't even have money for the octopus to work it's like the flip side of like what happened to spielberg and jaws where the the shark not working was the best thing that happened to him the the octopus not working in popeye just screwed the whole movie yeah i did but it was interesting that again well the elements that altman did

bring of his own style the sort of weird chatter and you know kind of it's like there was chaos on the margins yeah it was sort of interesting but but uh but yeah i mean i i mean i understand what you're saying that you know that that he was up against that yeah uh in the acting roles but then some people learned how to use i just yeah you know like the the failed attempt years later with mike nichols for godot you know that yeah how they thought that you know you could riff within it would be an acceptable thing to Godot scholars or Godot freaks or people that... Right, the purists, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I understand that too, but it's one thing to sort of replay, to place Shakespeare in different time frames. It's different than, so let's just rewrite this chunk. Right, I'm better than Samuel Beckett. I could do a polish on beckett yeah but it's i think not to you know excuse it but i think

when you again when you look at the earlier parts of robin's career even as a student actor and and being allowed to take these kinds of chances and and kind of put that time too in the early 70s yeah and even putting getting getting a lot of renown in the Bay Area for, like, kind of, you know, putting his own stamp on Malvolio in Twelfth Night and making that a kind of Jonathan Winters-esque character. So if you have those formative experiences, of course you think, you know, certainly the success of Mork and Mindy and getting a lot of the credit that all of it deserved for, you know, rewriting that on the fly.

Yeah, I thought that was interesting, too, that, like, you know you know, sort of like there's a lot of things that you put in here that as a journalist I thought were right. You know, but they do make the machinations of show business a little more dark, but also like, you know, what they do to a guy like Robin, not necessarily dark, but, you know, he gets carried away with himself. Yeah. And just by nature of who he is, is dismissive or insensitive or a bit morally lapsed.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, especially when it's his kind of first time through the ringer and certainly his first exposure to that kind of fame and that kind of celebrity and all the women the drugs the money starting to come in yeah and then trying to figure out how to live that life or do you live that life and what it means and the fact that you you know that the thing that i definitely appreciated throughout the book was that you know his weird fucking relationship with the the you know, like he seemed to have this from the very beginning that, you know, he had a resentment against Mork.

He had a resentment against the idea of selling out. Yeah. You know, and that, you know, the fact that he was doing coke and drinking and showing up late and that was, he was living the life. But it seemed that throughout, you know, the bits and pieces of the monologues and the bits and pieces of the act that you captured

that, you know, he knew in his heart that he had had sold that that he wasn't that that the only pure thing he could do was something he had complete control of yeah i mean you can hear it on an album like uh reality what a concept that when he calls out for uh an improv subject or a cue and somebody shouts out mork and the tone just changes immediately and you can you can hear it in his voice and he tries to play it off in a comic way but you know i'm sure that was happening to him on a nightly basis that you know people people wanted to see mork and not robin and how could how could that not get under your skin right but but i also think that there was the idea that he like he

seemed to judge himself very harshly and that he was you know somehow not honoring a more you know that he was a sellout yeah yeah well i think that i mean he certainly thought of himself as being capable of so much early on and even you know, I think even when he got cast in Popeye seems to feel like, just based on interviews he gave at the time and the way that his castmates and colleagues on the show reacted, he really seemed to think

that that was going to propel him into yet another echelon and that that might be his ticket out of the show. That if he could kick off the movie career with that, then that could get him, get him past more

and into whatever he, quote-unquote, really wanted to do. Right, well, that was interesting to me, that this guy who simultaneously sort of claims to not really know about show business and give a lot of the power to other people was completely aware that, you know, that he, you know, not only expected it, but had the talent to sort of cross over or break bigger. Yeah.

And that he was, that it's a conscious thing. There was not a luck thing to it that, you know, that he was looking for an Oscar nomination. He was looking for the awards. He was, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I think, I think beneath that is also that kind of inherent contradiction of being intimidated by a celebrity, being fearful of what it was going to do to him and the requirements that it demands to just perpetuate itself. But also on some level desiring it a little bit and feeling like he was destined for it in some way. Yeah.

That he could feel both of those things simultaneously. Well, I think that is one thing that I think, you know, goes sort of unsaid but clearly indicated in the book is that this was a guy that over time knew exactly what his talents were and exactly how to use them, whether it was innate or very much perceived. But I think there is also an underlying truth about him that he never, I don't think he ever believed he was as talented as people gave him credit for. Does anybody?

There's something kind of sad. I mean, it's sad for anyone. But I mean, there's a story that his half-brother McLaurin told me from later in Robin's life, you know, towards the end where they were, you know, out having a meal at a restaurant and they're served by a waiter and the waiter goes away. And Robin makes a remark to him about how, is there really any difference between me, Robin, and this waiter? Maybe just a few lucky breaks here and there, but otherwise, you know, we're no, we're no different. I shouldn't, there's no reason why he couldn't have what I have. I don't deserve what I, and that's, that's something, there's something sad about that. Yeah, but, but, but yeah, I think so. But I, but I also feel like, you know, that, that to me, you know, when you read the book that it wasn't beyond Robin to sort of, you know, attract attention through self-pity that's interesting

that's and and and that you know that that's a device of of a of a selfish person and somebody who is insecure and hard on themselves but like there's a couple moments where it reads like that that you know that that's why i think it was hard for so many of his of his friends you know when he was in trouble or depressed. I mean, depression, if it comes and goes in someone's life, one of the real manifestations of that, especially with a charismatic depressive, is self-pity. So meaning like that's a way of looking for reaffirmation. Right. That's their way of kind of putting it out to some.

But they can't articulate it in quite that way. So that's how theyirmation. Right. That's their way of kind of putting it out to some, but they can't articulate it in quite that way. So that's how they do it. Right. Well, yeah, for someone to go like, come on, you know, like if you're insecure and you're going to go that way, which is also a fairly common trait of the alcoholic personality, you know, that however you're going to draw it into your pathological self-centeredness. Right.

Yeah. And I was happy that you filled in the blanks about the night of Belushi's death and also about, you know, his relationship with prior and appearing on that prior variety show. Yeah. I think that was a very instructive thing. I mean,

cause that in a way that lesson that he took from that was like, it doesn't, it doesn't pay to be pointed in political. It better to be a little bit more, you know, audience friendly. But like I didn't know like there is a mythology around the night Belushi died. And I don't know what was covered in Wired or what had been covered previously. You know, how did you come to your accounting of it?

Well, some of that does come from Wired, which I think is fairly accurate. that does come from Wired, which I think is fairly accurate. And also from, I mean, you know, Pam Dauber, who I spoke to, is the one who had to break the news to Robin that Belushi had died after Robin had been out with him the previous night. So she could give me at least that side of the story, that portion of it. And it certainly aligns with the idea that even though he had encountered Belushi that night, that nothing of significance or interest had really gone on. There's some discrepancy about, you know, very, I mean, it's pretty minor that like Woodward says that like when Robin was in his, in Belushi's room, they did cocaine together and Robin denied that. But otherwise the, the account, I mean, the account of what actually happened while he's in the bungalow is pretty yeah the scary lady came with the heroin yeah yeah and he kind of knows

that this is not a place that he that he should stay definitely felt that you know like that was around the comedy store yeah you know like you know but yeah i i like i thought that was great and i also thought like um because you know you look at this like this filmography and it's kind of fucking insane like that's the thing about guys who like do the work and who you know like you know what whatever you want to trivialize the guy was in like 100 movies yeah and and pretty much you know making a film to two films a year on top of everything and huge films that's the other thing about the difference between what critics say and what America wants. Right. It's true to that. He had to live with that, what I think evolved into what must have been an internal critic or how he was going to be received.

But the fact is, who gives a fuck? That film made $150 million. Well, there's few, I don't know, maybe I'm overstating this, but there aren't too many examples, I think, of movies where the critical reception and the box office reception really diverge. I mean, maybe something like Jumanji. But initially, yeah, I think that even with Doubtfire, there was just as many bad ones as good ones. That's true. That's true.

And the same with like even fucking, you know, Ebert's reaction to- To Dead Poets Society. Yeah. Like it was malicious almost. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and Hook, which I think... I thought that tanked, but it didn't. No, I mean, it did okay commercially. And what I find so interesting is,

you know, if I talk to people who are maybe from the generational cohort younger than mine, because I remember seeing Hook in theaters and just being kind of bored by it and not understanding it, but to younger viewers, people love that film. It's on cable all the time, and it really has found a kind of second life. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I remember seeing it.

You know what I mean? But I remember it not being great. Yeah, the premise in some ways is so dazzling and so perfect. And it just doesn't. And Spielberg, all those things. That should have combined to make the best movie of 1990 or 91. And it was not that. And also realizing that Hollywood was a small town still. 1974, 75.

Yeah. The show business was small you know when you talk about kings of this or that you know there's just so many different areas so many different markets so many different you know it's it's not as easy in in a way to to sort of hold a mantle or be a global personality yeah you know if it's not in music so it's definitely a different time and i think you sort of see how that sort of starts getting by him, how some of his schtick is not aging as well as it could have. And that he does, you know, he doesn't get to become very old, but he did feel that go by him. And then the Oscar success happened so far into it.

But that waiting is just something people do. I mean, he could never have played the goodwill hunting role that Dr. Maguire. I mean, you need somebody who's lived in a bit and can relate to that kind of wounded person, somebody who suffered enough loss to be able to play. It's not the kind of thing he could have done earlier. But it's also, you know, again, we talked about like with Mork and Mindy, how that blew up and then was immediately squandered. And the Oscar success also was something that, I mean, as crowning an achievement as that was that, you know, that he never kind of capitalized on that or parlayed that. I mean, that was immediately followed by things like Patch Adams and Flubber. Yeah.

And, you know. Hard to turn down $15 million, I imagine, or however much he was making at that point. Yeah, yeah, we all know what that's like. Yeah, yeah, not me. I mean, I happen to think he did a lot of really terrific work. Certainly like a lot of the smaller films in the early 2000s. Definitely.

You know, things like. Bobby's movies. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and something like, you know, World's Greatest Dad. I mean, it's, sadly, I mean, there's just too much resonance now

and, you know, just the suicide aspect of that film, I think makes it probably very hard to watch. No, I thought it was great. I thought that was a wonderful performance. And that's why I think that on some level, he didn't, like you said, he didn't believe that, like he always did these roles that were sort of way outside the box for him because I think he wanted to challenge himself and prove himself to himself and others that he was this real actor.

I think he found them satisfying artistically. I think he certainly had the aptitude for it. And it's just a shame that those aren't the roles that could have paid him, you know, $10 or $15 million. Because he, at that point, kind of, you know, not when I say, I mean, he needed to do them, not because he was like, you know, short on cash, but that to just maintain that kind of lifestyle at that point. Or when you're at that level, you have to basically take, you know, a studio role every

year and you've got to take what's available. Divorces will kill you, I guess. And I think just he had two houses. He had household staffs for them. I mean, it costs money to live like that. Yeah. And so that sort of forces you in some way to take things like RV or what have you. Right.

things like, you know, RV or what have you. So if he could, you know, if he could have only or continued to focus on, I think, some of these kind of character pieces of these older men who, you know, have suffered and who, you know, are a little bit more contemplative and inward, which he could totally do. I mean, there was, you know, and I think also the Broadway play that he did, Bangle Tiger at the Mad Dead Zoo. I mean, they all just sort of pointed to the potential for at least one more reinvention, I thought. Sure.

You know, I mean, but, you know, it's weird. With a guy who's, the thing that everybody loves about him is also the thing that becomes sort of saccharine and difficult to take after a certain point. But the one thing the book makes clear is that he did everything. There was nothing, you know, sure there were more he could do,

but in terms of his success in show business or maintaining a career one way or the other and making a lot of shit, you know, it's sort of monumental. And also being a singular force in the universe that everybody immediately recognizes is going to have whatever feelings they're going to have. But I tell you, after he died, even people who didn't like him were like

oh fuck really you know what i mean yeah but like coming into this you know having written a memoir about cocaine and having a cocaine addicted father which you did yeah you know what what were you able to resolve i mean what did you bring what kind of baggage were you bringing to this it's it's it's so interesting that you say that because of i mean, nobody will believe this when I say it. It wasn't something that I was consciously thinking of as I'm writing about Robin. But I do feel like, you know, in the opportunities when I got to interview him while he was alive, there were certain parallels that I saw with how my father behaves and that kind of relentless confessional quality of the recovering or recovered addict your dad got sober yeah and and basically did what robin did the first time that there was no 12 step involved no kind of uh program it was a cold

turkey thing and it damn if it didn't take many many tries to get right yeah but he got sober like with the recovery eventually I know but basically you know a brute force method you know after 20 years really of abuse your dad yeah and so he had and still has that quality I think of just wanting to tell you what he's been through and tell you this you know and wants you to know that he's been this other person and how he got past it. Sure. Not that it's boastful, but that it's like, you know,

you should be aware of it. Yeah. And I think Robin had that too. Yeah, sure. So I guess there's got to be some kind of identification or empathy in that way that, you know, looking for that, I guess I'm going to say it out loud, but looking for that father figure in some way for that i guess i'm going to say it out loud but looking for that

father figure in some way or in that piece of him and but also having a natural interface with that personality that's interesting right i mean i don't know how your dad was but was he a charismatic unpredictable guy yeah yeah i guess now that you mention it no it was fascinating you know much you know when when i was working on the memoir and i would like go to him he would he's a furrier and so he sells like the raw animal skins that eventually get made into clothing and stuff so i would go with him to like these uh auctions and sales and like canada and stuff and to see how his like other industry uh like colleagues, competitors, rivals

reacted to him. And it was really so different from how I knew him. Right. That these people had even a little bit of like a fear of him or intimidation. Like, is this guy going to kind of swoop? Is he, if he's here at the sale, is he going to swoop in and try to underbid me? Or is he going to try to corner the market? He had a reputation.

Yeah. It was so interesting. And like, it really, this was not the man that I knew at home at all, who at least when he was sober was much more, you know, gentle and quiet and thoughtful and very literate and just turned on by a lot of things culturally. And then to see that sort of killer instinct side of him is fascinating. So, yeah, I that that's the charisma yeah yeah yeah interesting yeah i just find that like you know what like however you like you you come from a you're you're emotionally wired as by you know what you grew up with absolutely and you know even if it's not apparent immediately if you find yourself interfacing pretty quickly with somebody, it's because you got some, you know, some genetic component of your emotional makeup.

Yeah. It's like, oh, this feels like home. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think you spend, you know, the time on something like this if you don't feel connected to a person at that level. Sure. Yeah.

And how long did it take you to write, Robin? The writing portion was maybe like a year, year and a half. The whole project all till it was probably, you know, three and a half to four years. And you didn't, you weren't doing it expecting it to be posthumous. Oh, I was. I mean, the work on the book started after his death. Oh, it did. I mean, I had done, you know, a few different pieces about him for the Times, other stories

that were sort of adjacent to him because the pieces about Bobcat or the pieces about Billy Crystal that he factored into. So I had that base of reporting, but no, I mean, I didn't start working on the book until after his death. And this is your fourth book?

Yes, that's right. The first two are memoirs? Yes. The very first one was about just my experiences getting started in the magazine industry and working at the Ladd Mags of the early 2000s. Yeah. Then the other one that you mentioned was Cocaine Son, which was about my dad. What was it called?

Cocaine Son. Yeah, Cocaine Son. And then you wrote one about Chayeski? Yeah, Mad as Hell, which was about- I've got to check that out. What was it about? Yeah, Mad as Hell, which was about... I gotta check that out. What was it about?

I mean, it was about the making of Network, but in order to tell that story, you've got to tell the story of Paddy Chayefsky and his life and career, because he is... I mean, the film is essentially his. It's his creation. I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore. Yeah.

All of Chayefsky's papers are owned by the New York Public Library, so I got to spend a lot of time just kind of stewing in them and seeing not only all the drafts for Network, but just all the prep that went into that and lost works of his. Really? Like TV stuff that he wrote in the 60s that never got made.

I think I have a book of like four plays that he wrote. Is there a book of... Yeah, there's one anthology of his TV plays and then one anthology of his four plays that he wrote? Is there a book of... Yeah, there's one anthology of his TV plays and then one anthology of his stage plays. And was it that you were more fascinated, you were fascinated with him? Yeah, I mean, I thought that the movie is of course very special

and just to get to spend time with his papers and really see from the ground up how a movie like that came together. Yeah. It was really rewarding. An old leading man like William Holden. Yeah. To me, the sort of sensitivity, the natural sort of humility that he had because he was older.

Yeah. Yeah. Was like, it was really something to see. Yeah. No, I mean, it was really something to see. Yeah. I think for each of the principal actors, there's a very kind of weird, perfect alignment with whoever they happen to be at that point in their life and career. They were so well-suited for those roles.

It was true of William Holden. It was true of Faye Dunaway. It was true of Peter Finch. Duvall. Yeah, a little bit. I mean, Duvall, I think bit i mean duvall i think is i think he's come around to liking that film but i don't think he particularly enjoyed uh making well because i mean he was arguably the biggest name in the film at that moment maybe

dunaway but just didn't he he knew going in that the role was as great as he plays that character that he was not really one of the main principal people. It was really more about Holden and Finch and Dunaway. But the funny thing is that that character, you know, who was great in that movie was who was the guy. Ned Beatty. Ned Beatty. Oh, yeah, of course. Of course.

You have meddled with the primal forces of nature. Now, there's a great impression. And you will atone. Am I getting through to you? I love the way that it turns like that. The best. That was sales. It was all, am I getting through to you?

Yeah. Well, it goes from the height of like this operatic exaggeration and then it becomes small and quiet and pointed and personal. Well, it's just sort of like, that's the hustle. Yeah. Is this working? Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's so funny because- Because he goes out of his way to say, I could sell anything to anybody. Yes. And now, so this is like, he's like, you know, how am I going to, how do you sell to this fucking lunatic? It's very true. I love, it's interesting because, of course,

Finch's mad as hell speech is like, that's the scene that everybody remembers. That's the epicenter of the movie. But I think Beatty's speech is just as good. Oh, no, it's great. To me, that's the one. It's like an apocalypse now. The only thing that I remember is like

what are you gonna do go out and land on a fraction man you're gonna land on one eighth or one like for me all of apocalypse now

is just hopper but no but the way they lit Beatty yeah like it was just genius yeah and that was they really kind of

stumbled into that because they wanted to shoot the scene they initially were gonna do it at the New York Stock Exchange. And then they had to give the Stock Exchange people like a draft of the speech. And then, of course, they review it. And they're like, there's no way we're letting you do this scene here. So they had to do it at the New York Public Library.

They made it look like an old-timey conference. Like it's sort of like everything about it.y conference. Yeah. It's sort of like, you know, everything about it. Yeah. The wood. Yeah, the banker's lamps. The lighting. It's sort of like, this is how it's always been. This is Valhalla, Mr. Biel.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why are you telling me this? Because you're on TV, dummy. Yep. Well, I'm very interested to read that book. Thank you. That movie. Yeah, I watch it every so often.

You know, I go back to it. Yeah, yeah. In a way, I mean, I really enjoyed the project, book is that you know that movie yeah i watch it every so often you know i go back to it yeah yeah in a way i mean i really enjoyed the project but it's like if that book could have just come out maybe two years later it would have been i think even more apt it you know i think that there was even a feeling in 2014 people were like why is network important who cares about you know the risk of putting angry people on tv and letting them shout into the void. Yeah. And now,

you know, I think that maybe that message is a little bit more readily received, but also, you know, the, the sort of prophecy of what TV becomes. Sure. Sure.

You know, like that, what I was going to say is the guy who played the, the, the head of the news department, that, that character actor who played that guy. You remember that the guy with the mustache,

sort of a tall, you know, like he just buckles immediately under ruddy like you know you can't do that to my news department we're doing it shut up okay that guy you know that guy i know who you mean yeah yeah forget his name yeah oh yeah no i think that there's that that that whole style and spirit of movie making i I think, it's kind of lost. That's where I was thinking about that the other day, because you have these huge movies, like, what does it take to make a money-making movie? And then everything else is just some version of an independent movie. Yeah.

Whereas, like, these movies that were, you know, independent in spirit, but also cutting and, like, Hospital was a pretty big movie. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was a commercial hit and an Oscar winner. And, you know, two different studios financed Network. That was MGM and United Artists when they were still separate. And in a weird way, I mean, neither Chayefsky nor Sidney Lumet really came out of that like new Hollywood tradition.

Not really rebels in that sense, but the idea that they got to basically use studio money to tell the studios and tell mass media how stupid it was. I mean, there's something so... It was at that time, too, though. Yeah. It was at that time, right? Yeah. Like the studios had run out of ideas of how to get young people into movies. Right. Right?

So it's that book, that Raging Bull, Easy Life is Raging Bull. Well, that's the whole thing. I mean, those guys are not part of that scene. I mean, they benefit certainly from the success of all those other movies

and creating. They're from the last sort of generation of studio guys. Yeah. And they're more TV guys. Oh, really? Lumet was a live TV guy

before he, you know, transitioned into filmmaking and same with Chayefsky. They both come from that sort of golden age, that first era of tv when the medium seems so sort of pliable and could be so many different and then they immediately see it kind of get categorized and everything has to be you know a western or a cop show or a family comedy and then there's there's no other categories left and so they both they both kind of felt uh alienated by that in different ways huh yeah well

look man i i definitely want to pick that book up thank you and the uh and but this robin book's a great read and like it really you know i like i was you know it's one of those ones where it's you want to keep reading it even though you know the the you know what happens at the end sadly but uh but like uh all of, the sensitivity to who he was publicly and personally, and also the choices he made without being, you know, a cheerleader, but being sort of honest and, you know, and kind of showing him as a full human was great. Great job. Thank you very much. Thanks for talking.

My pleasure. My pleasure. So that was me talking to Dave Itzkoff. The book is Robin. It's available now wherever you get books. But now I'm going to share with you the Robin Williams interview I did in 2010 in its entirety. This interview was a very important day for me. It was a very important day for the show. I think Robin had a nice time

It was just one of those things, you know, we we tried to get him on the show It took a lot we had to jump through a lot of hoops to get to him But the day that it finally happened, you know I drove up there by myself with my little flash recorder and I sat in his home Up there in Tiburon. And, uh, it was just me and Robin in a room in his house, uh, on the, on the water. And it was a very candid and very connected interview. It was a very honest interview. Uh, I think he said things in that interview that were never said before. And in that interview, put our show on the map in a very big way, put the podcast on the map. So I'm sort of forever indebted to Robin for, for drawing attention to the forum. And, uh, you know, he was a sweet guy and, and it's, uh,

it's, it's lovely to have this to share with you, but it's sad that he's no longer here. So this is me and Robin Williams from 2010. It's old school. It's like a classic stand-up mic I made in the... Welcome back. I think it's going to be all right. So I appreciate you doing this. It's fun. I was nervous.

Thanks for coming here. I was nervous coming up here. I usually don't get nervous. Why? I don't know why, you know, because we've hung out before, we've talked before, but then at some point in my mind mind I'm getting ready to do this, and I'm like, I felt like I was interviewing a former president. I never knew.

It's going to be like the Williams-Marin interviews. This is going to go on for days. What phone call? Exactly. What did I do? It was a blackout. I remember. Was there a prostitute involved?

I don't know how long you were drinking for in this little run you took, but I have to assume that driving home had to be an inspiration to stop. I only drove drunk that I remember once. And then one time I woke up the next morning going, where's my car? And it turned out the bartender had driven me home. He was a sweet guy and he drove me home. And the next day I couldn't find the car.

And I thought, oh, my God, my car's been stolen. And they actually parked it for me in a safe parking lot. So it's nice when people take care of you when you're that loaded. It's the benefit of celebrity, I guess. Yeah. Take more home. I get to sit in my car, right? What?

Now I can do this. I walked home one time from a bar in Toronto, and I woke up the next morning. To here? No, no. Yeah. That's a really great blackout. I was a two-month walk. And I woke up the next morning with a mitten.

And I went, oh, my God, this is a child's mitten. And then the worst thought is the next morning, that's the man. And it turned out a waitress had given me her. She had tiny hands. And she'd given me her mitten because I'd lost a glove. But that's the worst thing when you wake up going, what's this? There's a road flare. Oh, yeah, or your car has got blood and hair on the fender.

Is that human? No, it's rabbit blood. Oh, thank God. So I was doing some poking around, you know, because there's a part of my comedy career where I spent time at the comedy store and you were this myth there

at that time. I started looking at stuff. I talk to a lot of younger comics now and their history of comedy really starts at Mr. Show or maybe 10 years ago. When you mention Robin Williams or Pryor or Kennison or anybody, they're like, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. Those are crazy times because Sam, you know, Sam's first night up was just, I remember seeing, who's that guy screaming? Yeah. And supposedly Sam got on because he rescued Mitzi from Argus. Right, it was Argus Hamilton who was strangling her in some sort of drunk frenzy. And then, ah, get away! Yeah, yeah.

Sam rescued her and then they put Sam on. My favorite nights were the nights that Pryor was working live on Sunset, the first one before he set himself on fire, the first stand-up. And it'd be these weird nights where you'd just watch him, and then sometimes you'd get to go on after him once in a while, like he would have people come on stage with him, and then there'd be people in the audience like Willie Nelson would know have people come on stage with him and then there'd be people in the audience like willie nelson would play music at the end after everyone split and

you go it's like jazz it's pretty wonderful but now in your did you did prior sort of take you under his wing somehow i mean he took everybody under his wing because he had that variety show that he had on i think was nbc it was like the first show was amazing because he had yeah this thing he said it pans up here he's not wearing you think he's just

got his shirt off he goes look at me it's Richard Pryor I'm on TV I didn't have to give up anything I'm on NBC

live and then they panned down and he's a Ken doll he's got no genitalia and then after that they started saying you know Richard

you can't do that you know and then he by the time the last show aired they they said, okay, Richard, you, he wouldn't, he was kind of angry at them. And he said, okay, just film me doing standup. And they said, oh, great. They filmed him for 45 minutes.

They had 30 seconds they could use. That was it. Yeah. But it was like, he had everybody. It was Mooney, Sandra Bernhardt, everybody. He just had all the comics to be like his players in this comedy troupe, and it was pretty wonderful. But I think he just loved hanging out there, you know,

and you'd see him backstage. One night somebody yelled out at him. They said, Richard, do Mudbo, and he went, fuck you. You do it. You know it better than me. And he did a piece one night that was the most beautiful piece I'd ever seen him do. He did a piece about God coming back to Earth to pick up his kid. And he's going, where's my boy? And he had everyone, you know, and they go, you want

to tell him? And I went, I don't know. You know, get the Pope. He'll tell him. I go, where's my son? We killed him. What do you mean? Well, we killed him, but he came back, and then he split. And we haven't seen him. And then Pryor looked around and went, and then God was like, I'm going to destroy him. Then all of a sudden

he took a moment and went, all right, that's it. I'm leaving. I'm not coming back. I'm going to leave you love. And if you fuck that up, you're on your own.

And then he walked off stage and you can see the entire audience go like, huh? They never did it again but it was a weird kind of like, I just went,

the most strangely beautiful piece and the response of the audience was like, ta-da. That wasn't a character. No,

that was just him. I love that kind of shit. It was wonderful. It's like those 1903 when you go on and someone says something so fucking wild and wonderful.

And deep. Deep. So deep that even people in the audience are going, that's deep. I don't know how to respond. Yeah, exactly.

It's too deep. It was. Yeah, that was one of the questions I was thinking of when I was coming down here, is that despite whatever problems you had throughout your career, that I never sensed any animosity towards an audience. You can't be angry at them. I mean, I remember one night...

You can't. I can't, no. But I can't. I mean, there's times when I've run across hostile audiences. Towards you? Yeah, I mean, but just because they're hostile towards everybody. Right. I remember one audience years ago when I was on stage,

they were sending up kamikazes, which was vodka and lime juice. And after about the third one, I realized, you want me to get fucked up, and I said it. And they went, yeah! And you want me to crash and burn. Yeah! And I was like, oh, fuck. It was, I went, oh, I get it.

Did you do it? No, I finally went, good night. Because I went, oh, I get it. Did you do it? No, I finally went, good night, because I went, I've got to stop, because you really just want to see me pass out, don't you? And they were going, fuck yeah. You know, it's that weird, you know, from hanging with Sam, that crash and burn, that's the way to go.

Well, I mean, but that's the way I did it, because I was trying to put into perspective, like, you know, despite my own drug and alcohol problems throughout the years, they never garnered me, you know, any, you know, if I was drunk or fucked up up there, I would go after an audience. I would blame them. I would say, I have opened shows by saying, what do you fucking want? Oh, the worst case of that I saw was Keith Jarrett played recently at the Civic,

I guess the Concert Hall, Symphony Hall, Davies Symphony Hall. And he's an amazing solo pianist and he plays his things, but he wants absolute quiet. And if you cough, he literally, after he finishes his piece, he goes, listen, people don't cough when I play in my studio at home. Can you try? And he called it

a failure in concentration. The Japanese don't cough. And then finally he played this beautiful piece and it got to a quiet part and this woman went and you could see him literally go like this and after and then

he went up to the mic again to start to tell people hey that's not cool and someone went just play. And I went it was like dance for me black boy.

It was like and you could see him kind of go and he walked off and then he came back out because he realized wait a minute I can't let you win.

He could have because in Italy he told everyone to go fuck themselves but he walked out on stage and he walked off and then he came back out because he realized wait a minute I can't let you win he could have because in Italy he told everyone to go fuck themselves but he walked out on stage and he said okay what do you want to hear and they started yelling requests and he played some beautiful

like old standard and then he played Somewhere Over the Rainbow this jazz rendition really beautifully and at that point even the hardcore were like great I love you

yeah and then he did you know and then he walked off stage and he got the first kind of, and I think the hardcore, the people that are angry going, just play,

they split. And then he did five encores. So by the fifth encore, it was just the people who knew, hey, and they were totally quiet and it was so beautiful. By the end, he had kind of done

the Buddhist thing of rather than tell them to go fuck themselves, he said, what do you want? Like you said, he did what they wanted and then the hardcore, the nasties, the entitled white people who are now picketing now today,

they split. And then what was left was the people go, I get it. We're sharing this experience. But it's like, you know, it's so weird. Well, sometimes you get an audience that's just like the gift. And then other times you get, you know, the audience from hell. I just don't, like, I don't completely understand the non-angry based comic. I guess what's hard to say when you've got like,

there's not a lot for me to be angry at. I guess that's true. I guess if you start like a show, especially when Mork and Mindy was on, someone turned to me and used to come out and just say hi and people go ha ha I haven't said anything funny

that's the scary thing there's that kind of oh you're famous you're funny but the weird thing is what have you got to be pissed about it was like that weird thing I used to joke

when I was 16 before I went to Europe no that doesn't sound good don't you hate it when you have to walk to a private plant right right how many people

have problems with their maid yeah one of my houses, it's like when all of a sudden there was the Malibu fires and people are forced to leave their second home. I went, ain't life a bitch. Yeah, right.

It's like... I guess that's true. But it's weird, but you can still get angry with, like you said, ignorance or just drunks, but being angry at a drunk is like bitch slapping a cow.

It's not really effective. And I guess that's true. I mean, when did you do... How old were you when you did Mork? I mean. I was about 29, 27, and that was crazy shit. You know, I'd go from, you know, doing the show and then come to do the comedy show and then go to the improv.

And then you'd go hang out at clubs and then, you know, end up in the hills in some coke dealer's house, you know. Yeah, sure. Angel, it's Robin. Yeah, yeah. And then you'd wake up the next morning going, oh, and not wake up, you haven't gone to sleep.

And you're like a vampire on a day pass going, how are you? Yeah. And then you have to go do it again. Mm-hmm. You know, I have no regrets. I met a lot of interesting people,

logged a lot of hours, a few pirates. That you just like, I mean, you're Robin Williams and you're in this room with a guy who says he's a gaffer some guy with an eye patch and you're waiting for some other guy to bring shit that you don't even know where it came from if you're famous most of the time you get it for free which is weird it's like it's like the same thing when you get gift baskets at award shows

going i don't need this stuff thank you but my coke doesn't go here dude yeah we love you we want to see you die you want to see you die i don't want to get you high because it's part of our advertising campaign i got robin loaded yeah they yeah and they like being connected to you these and go, here, dude. Yeah, we love you. We want to see you die. We want to see you die and only get you high because it's part of our advertising campaign. I got robbed and loaded. Yeah, and they like being connected to you. And it's part of the whole thing

of a little dust for you and then you'll spread the word and other celebrities and eventually if they get busted then they could subpoena you. Right. But also they get to hang out

with you. Big time. And then they realize, Jesus, I'm a coke, you're a boring fuck. You look out the window a lot. Yeah, I do. There's ninjas coming up the wall. Yeah, ninjas andcook, you're a boring fuck. You look out the window a lot. Yeah, I do. There's ninjas coming up the wall.

Ninjas, maybe just cops. I mean, yeah. What are you doing? What's that noise? It's a spider. But that Hollywood Hills thing then, I can't even imagine what it was like. Because by the time I was there with Sam, I mean, it seemed like the wave was crashing. I mean, he was the most demonic manifestation of that scene.

I mean, shit, you were there. You were like... I had to bail him out once. I had to go. I think it was one of the houses. I don't know if you lived there, but one of the I had to bail him out once. I had to go, I think it was one of the houses, I don't know if you lived there, but one of the houses, he trashed a house

and they were going to take him to court so I ended up paying the cleaning deposit. And another time, he did it to a hotel room in New York and they were about to take him and I ended up saying, okay, I'll cover your hotel bill.

But it was weird, that whole kind of, you know, throwing TVs out the window, you're going, it's old school. Yeah. This old English rock and roll. But is it necessary?

What the fuck did he do? Why are you doing that? Exactly. Shitting on the carpet. Yeah, taking it, you know. What are you doing? Took a dump on your RV. Fuck off.

Were you there during the... I was gone when he was doing the... No, I know, because I was there. Yeah, you were there. There was talk of you. Yeah, he'd gone. Yeah, yeah. At that point I

moved back up to Napa I was like but you'd been clean then by then weren't you I mean the place 20 years sober before I relapsed recently and it was like it was that whole thing about my son being born it was just like fuck I can't do this anymore you know it's just I remember you did material on that about having the kid and having it be like coke and yeah it's a little you're awake you know yeah I haven't slept you smell like shit and piss well what the hell do you think happened this time what brought you out i mean it brought me what made me relapse i was up in alaska and a place enough said yeah you know who's up there people witness protection go to the bar

and say nice tooth yeah it's another planet oh yeah even when i was drinking there even the bartender went i thought you were sober. I am. Can you keep it secret? And I started drinking a tiny little bottle of Jack Daniels, like the little ones you get in the airplane. Oh, yeah. And I thought, this is fine. Yeah, it's a small bottle. And a week later, I was hiding a big bottle of Jack Daniels and just like... It went quick. And it was just being

in Alaska. What were you doing up there? This movie called The Big White. And just totally just alaska what were you doing up there this movie called the big white and just totally just thinking what am i doing here this is crazy and then feeling kind of like isolated and all of a sudden went well there's one cure and all of a sudden you feel i feel warm after this and then it was just so fucking quick were you publicly drunk a couple of times yeah a couple of times that people had to kind of go maybe you should go home now you know it's nice. I think you said this once at a Coke dealer actually, you said, that's enough. Yeah.

Sent me home. Yeah. When you know you're fucked up when your dealer's going, I think you've got to stop right now. At least for the day. They start talking that shit to you. You've got to clean up your act. And then it was three years of just denying and the whole myth with alcohol

is that vodka doesn't smell until you sweat oh yeah and then you just start acting out and acting out and acting out and acting out

and then until eventually I was in Cannes at a fundraiser on stage you know just drunk off my ass and I looked up and I went

oh that's a wall of cameras that's kind of cool and I went at this point you're going, why don't you just take a shit on the stage? And then people might notice. What are you doing? That's crazy shit.

And you're not really the kind of guy where they're like, ah, it's Robin. Yeah, no, no, at that point they're going, oh, this isn't good. Oh, Opie's doing crack. Yeah. Can't be. And do you think it was something,

you couldn't really, I mean, I know, drinking is just drinking and the mind says. No, no, I think it's trying to fill the hole and it's fear. And you're kind of going, where am I doing in my career? And you start thinking, you know what would be great at this point? Rehab. But it's the idea of just you bottom out. Yeah, you felt a sort of emptiness and a fear of where you go next.

Where do you go next and what am I doing? And rather than kind of go, okay, this will pass, you go, no, this will pass quicker. It's so interesting to me that you have these experiences. You're an international superstar. I'm a shit fade. The weird thing is people say, you have an Academy Award. The Academy Award lasted about a week, and then one week later people go, hey, Mork. You're back.

And it's like all that stuff. You still get that? You don't get that hey, Mork. Oh, God. So you're back and it's like all that stuff. You still get that? You don't get that anymore. Mork, oh, God, yeah. Come on. Once in a while, just because it's on Nickelodeon or you get people kind of go,

that's the memory bank. A show like that is in people's like Akishic memory. Does that bother you? No. I go, it paid for the ranch. It paid for the house.

Right. And it was great experiences. I got to meet wonderful people and it paid a lot of bills and kicked my career way in the ranch. It paid for the house. Right. And it was great experiences. I got to meet wonderful people, and it paid a lot of bills, and kicked my career way in the ass. Don Barrera said, without that, where the fuck would you be? I go, you're right. Did he say that recently? No, that was...

Oh, fuck you. But it's, you know, it was that weird fucking thing of, yeah, you have all this stuff, but the weird thing, the only sanity clause, and that sounds like a much better, hey, I don't believe in a sanity clause. The idea is going on stage is the one salvation. Now, how long did you stay away from stand-up? I mean, you never really... Not long, I mean, it would come and go.

It became like after the 2002 tour came after 9-11. It was literally, we were doing this Mark Twain Award in Washington, and it was like, I think, almost a month after 9-11, and people were kind of going, you could see that there was just like, almost like, I think, almost a month after 9-11 and people were kind of going, you could see that there was just like, almost like lifting a siege. And you went, oh, geez, man, it is good to get back out and do this shit, you know?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I saw you at Stand Up New York a couple of times. That's what I love going on there. And it's a very small place. We're at the Comedy Cellar. And like, I mean, you, you know, I mean, your desire to connect and your style, like you were saying before, there's this weird thrill where the people, they see you get the tape. But then the thrill wears off, and then you've got to find something.

And then, yeah, you've got to get in it. And we were talking about that before at the Comedy Cellar, that the honesty where you're at your point in your life now, where you're at the age you're at now and you're having the experiences you're at now. I mean, it takes some balls to really deal with that stuff. To deal with it? I mean, I'm not to the point where Pryor could talk about it so fucking deep. But that's your inspiration? Yeah, my inspiration. The people I see doing it, I mean, you talk about it, honestly, Chris Rock.

Chris did the most amazing thing recently. He said, you know, it's weird. All of a sudden, if you get a sexual, you know, if you cheat on your wife everything is a felony first degree but that should be like

if you get a blowjob in Georgia from a stewardess that should just be a misdemeanor if you fuck a best friend that's a felony yeah yeah yeah

and you go like have you turned this routine for your wife not yet right but it's that balls about what can you talk about isn't it funny

the balls it's not it's not relative to to transgressing any cultural taboos, but it's like, well, I don't know if she'll take that shit

anytime. Those are the real balls. They really are. When you come home to that, you know, mm-hmm, oh, yeah. Even if you've only been dating them two months.

Big time, and you go, well, can she tolerate that shit? And then you can't pull that thing. It's like, it's my act. It's not your act. I was with you

when that happened. That was us. Yeah. That was me. That thing when you look like you're thing. It's like, it's my act. It's not your act. I was with you when that happened. That was us. Yeah. That was me. That thing when you look like you're going down on a girl, that's what you look like. Yeah. Fuck off.

Yeah. And it's like, you know, that's the scariest part. It's also people when you do, like, jokes about famous people or anybody, and then you run into them. Well, Sanwer never forgave me for something. Serious? Kind of. I mean, I did this joke where I used as a descriptive,

like I mocked Adam Sandler fans. And then I run into him at the improv one night, and he's like, I hear you're talking about me. And I'm like, yeah, I did on television. You've got to get over it. Yeah, he's like, what's your problem? And I'm like, dude, you're a cultural icon. At some point, we can't, you know.

You don't get immunity. Well, I'm in no position, like, you know, it's not like I have any cachet. I'm still able to make those kind of mistakes. The liability for me is like, well, you're not in the group. You know, you will be excluded. Yeah. Or also that you'll never get in now, you fuck. That's right.

Do you want in? No, no. I brought you a mark. I said, do you want to be a member of a club that would have you as a member? No. It's like, do you want to be a member of a club that would have you as a member? No. It's a fucking frightening thing. I mean, one time I was doing this thing,

it was a benign impression of Stallone, you know, as being monosyllabic. And Billy, Billy Crystal, he went, he's here.

And I was, hi. And then you got to go, then you got to deal with it. How did he deal with it? He was funny. It's not that, he's not saying like, whatcat said during the Vietnam War.

He was teaching Jim to Swiss schoolgirls. That he was a little offended. If you actually attack their character. Yeah, if you attack their character and actually go after a real hardcore personal point, then they get like, oh, I'll kill you. How do you take it when people kind of say it? It hurts, but then you realize, and and you what do you do for a living I make fun of people

good luck thank you yeah I guess you have to get Buddhist and say you're there dude like you said you're in the mix

when you fuck up you're in the mix like a week ago I did this thing on Letterman and I thought this is pretty benign I just come back

from Australia and he said how's Australia I said no Australians are like English rednecks cut to I land in LA and they said the prime minister of Australia was offended by the remark. He basically said, perhaps Mr. Williams should spend some time in Alabama before he calls someone a redneck,

which triggered the governor of Alabama to call the prime minister of Australia and said, you know, people in Alabama are decent, hardworking people. In other words, we're not rednecks either. Now he's campaigning against Australia to keep the seat. No, no, no, I said a linguist. Yeah. Yeah, they go, no, you don't ever call us that. Well, good day.

Now, what are you saying? No. And it was just weird to go, oh, wow, I pissed off the prime minister. That's just a weird thing. But then it was like, then I went on Australian radio going, I was talking linguistically. If you combine an English accent and a good old boy, you get this. If you go, hello, good to see you, and hey, how are you, you get, hi, good eye, y'all.

And it's just weird. That was the joke? The joke was, I didn't even say that joke. That was the joke I did. That wasn't spin? You were trying to? I didn't. I was trying to spin it back so I don't land an Australian and get a cavity search.

Hi, you know Romans? Step back here. Time to be a fry. We're putting on an oven, man When I talked to It's very coincidental But I actually had Steve Pearl in my hotel room yesterday Fucking A, he said that

He's been so wonderful to see him back here And so sane again And he's really funny as shit Because he got so dark when he lived in LA I know, and that's how I knew him That's when I met him You knew him in the dark, dark Steven. Well, that's what's cool.

The anti-Steven. And now he's still fucking hilariously funny, but it's like he's got a girlfriend and he's up here. He's happy. He's away from the black hole. Yeah. And the black hole in himself seems to have filled in a little bit. Oh, big time. He's happy.

He's chipper and he's like sparky. But he's still like, he's fucking, he does the same. I'll tell you right now. Yeah. And he does all this, and he's like, you see him at the Throckmorton, and he's, like, he kicks ass. Is he killing? Killing. Well, that was the interesting thing, because, like, you know, in the San Francisco, like, I get a lot of comedy nerds that listen to this show.

And they're sort of an elite bunch, some of them. That must be a weird group. Well, they are weird. Just this side of comic people. Well, exactly. But they've sort of latched on. I think it started, you know, with Mr. Show, with Bob and Dave. And there's a sort of intelligentsia element to it.

People who know I found. And I also think people like finding young comics or finding. They find niche comics that they go, I found this guy. No one knows about him. Well, that's what it is. There's a whole community around that. You performed at the UCB, I think, a couple of times. Oh, my favorite.

Yeah, and that's sort of like ground community around that. Like, you performed at the UCB, I think, a couple of times. Oh, my favorite. Yeah, and that's sort of like, you know, ground zero of that. What's ground zero for weird, strange, like, kicking it comedy? Well, that's like the analogy I was trying to make and trying to talk to Pearl when I could talk to him, you know, when I wasn't. When you were swimming upstream. When being bombarded with the history of civilization in small fragments. Was that, you know, San Francisco, I guess in the late 70s and early 80s, when you guys were here, really defined a type of comedy.

And I don't think people really talk about it that much. And I think that you and Pearl were sort of at the center of what became a riff style. There was a lot of people. There was him, Pearl. There was Paula Poundstone. There was all these weird, A. Whitney Brown. Or now she says, The Whitney Brown. There was all these weird A. Whitney Brown or now as he says the Whitney Brown

there was all the and Dana Carvey and a lot because it had weird clubs Bobby Slayton the Jews old Jews Jews and Chinese

Godzilla vs. the Battle of the Ancient Cultures give me the Mo I want the Mo well you gotta think the clubs you know kind of brought that out,

like the Holy City Zoo, which is a weird kind of wine bar next to a hardcore rock and roll bar, or the other cafe located near. The streetcars are going by. All of a sudden you'd be doing a show and ding, ding, and then you'd see the weird people getting off. And it was that, the other cafe, some cobs when it was down in the marina, weird clubs that kind of brought out weird styles.

And it seemed like the community in San Francisco sort of indulged your indulgence. Totally. You can't do it anywhere else. No. I mean, I think you're right. It was an eclectic mix. And a loud, you know, like weird comedy, like Freaky Ralph, who eventually set himself on fire.

To close? No. To end his life yeah that's the ultimate closing but seriously I'll be here till five minutes from now god man you're killing yourself

to close only a comic would go to close how did you see the first and second show? it's not an opener so the style that you, like... Mine was just based on the fact that I didn't use a mic. Because if you want a mic, if I can go off mic. And also, wading into these clubs is the only way to kind of, you know, wade in.

If people started heckling you, you just wade over into the audience and kind of go near their table. Or move away from them and use the other side of the room. And fuck the loud people over here and the drunks at the bar. So you're... And improvising. Right. And just playing off of shit that was going on. and use the other side of the room, and fuck the loud people over here, and the drunks at the bar. So you're, from the beginning. And improvising, and just playing off of shit that was going on, or just trying to go,

okay, what's, coming in with some ideas, but not like, good evening ladies and gentlemen. One of the great, strange performers at that time was Jeremy Kramer. There's an eclectic name.

That Jeremy would go on, and just do loud, wonderful characters. He was like the West Coast Gilbert Gottfried. Right. And he would be like, Loud! Hi, everybody!

Yeah. And he would do weird, kind of wonderful, strange characters that literally, if people would love him, would drive people out of the room. There was no middle ground. Well, there was some integrity to that at a certain point in time that if people left... You know, when Gilbert would do the entire rock opera of Tommy as Jerry Lewis,

that's a ballsy move until he'd empty the room and the only person left was Larry David. That's commitment. Yeah, and I think that there's still something to be said for that. You don't see people with that much balls anymore. I think it does take a certain amount of balls to cut that type of territory on stage. Cut that type of territory and realize,

or like Lenny Schultz in the middle of one time, and this is the strangest name in comedy, you know, giant Lenny, steroid-pumped-up Lenny, on stage doing a children's showcase for Nickelodeon. And at one point he realizes this isn't going well, and then he pulls out a double-headed dildo. How's this for your fucking kids? And then starts playing turkey in a straw with a double-headed dildo and going, oh, this is when you go. That's comedy.

That's comedy. That's the nature. That's the real stuff. That's the business, my boy. Well, that's interesting, though. So you come out of Juilliard doing it. You did stand up. I left school.

I fell in love with this girl. Did you finish? No, I didn't finish. They even wanted me to finish, and they kept saying, come back. And I went, I fell in love with this girl, moved back here, couldn't find acting work, and one day went, come back. And I went, I fell in love with this girl, moved back here, couldn't find acting work, and one day went, what, there's a weird comedy workshop. Because I'd done a lot of...

What year are we talking? Probably 76. Yeah, three years of jewelry. Probably maybe even 75. And just doing this comedy workshop in the basement of the Intersection Coffee House, and then all of a sudden they had a night of lesbian poetry and stand-up comedy, which is a great audience to begin with. Sure, because you know they're going to like you just being a man. A man, yeah.

There's going to be a lot of love there. Big male penis violence. But it was weird, and starting with that, and then this weird kind of comedy thing, a lot like the zoo had one night of comedy. A lot of clubs at that time were kind of going, we'll try a night of comedy. Whereas in the 80s, everything, every disco, every other club had a comedy night. But I think that whole no mic thing really defines still that.

Because when I go off mic, the control you have of a room changes dramatically. Totally. People are forced to kind of go, what? Yeah, they're like, take it in. And so you were able to sort of like. But I know guys who do that, you know, who really. That's why when I do stand-up, I use a wireless mic. I just, I don't, this is hard for me to go, okay, good evening, thanks.

And it seemed to me almost old school to go, hi, everybody, nice to be here. Holding the mic. Holding the mic. And when I've had to go to clubs where I do, I kind of, I leave it in the stand and kind of come and go to it. It's almost like, oh, come back, point of reference, come back. But it was also that thing, I've got to move. Moving target, literally. And you still put it out there, man.

You've got to. For me, and the reason when we go on at the Comedy Cellar, it's therapy. It's a relief from that shit, like you said, of this weird thing of the celebrity and all that other crazy shit,

where you can go on stage, and especially like you go on stage late, and like you said, with an audience, it's kind of especially, I don't know, there's certain audiences that go, okay, so it's something new. Right. And they're a little beaten up. If you go on late, you know, and it's half a house. They're beaten up, and then they're going, and then you know if you find something new it's new then it's new and also different or really honest or really like you said deep or just fucking crazy shit but i think the personal truth you know

becomes more daunting i i to me yeah for me it's a difficult thing to do you know it's like if you want to you know you know pontificate or or or take a soapbox which i've done plenty of in my life and i'm just at this point and I'm a little younger than you, where it seems to me that the real risk, the one thing that all of us share is that existential fear, the panic of what does it really all fucking mean? Big time. What do we do with this anger?

What do you do with the anger? What do you do beneath the anger is the fear. Like you said, what's the fear? Yeah. And you talk about that, and you talk about it to a 20-something, and they're going, because they're immune at that point. Well, yeah, I do a bit about how I've gotten old enough to resent people for being young. And I'll ask someone in the audience, how old are you?

And if they go, like, 22, I go, fuck you. You're 22, you think you've got life by the balls. And I tell them, I say, you do. You do have life by the balls. But what you don't realize is that the cock of life is planted firmly in your ass. And you're just helping it along. And they don't really know what to do with that because there's no way they can...

I can't fathom that. Well, I do the podcast. You know who can fathom it? I get emails from 14 to 18-year-old guys saying, I really understand where you're at, the frustration, all this stuff. And then when they get about 20, 20 to 35, which is the prime demographic, I got nothing for them.

But 14 to 18-year-old kids, they understand the fear and the pain and everything else. And then the cocky time comes. And then when you get in your mid-30s, they're like, oh, now I get it. So I've alienated the only profitable demographic. I'm very clever like that. You're basically clever. 18 to 25, nothing. Fuck off.

Yeah, yeah. That's why I wanted to talk about Twitter to me Twitter the next step for me is stalker I'm having lunch I know I might not have the table near you there's a website where they say people are twittering so much for criminals they're like well he's not home

he just told us he wasn't home and they talked about it on the news and went great now you're giving them even more of a clue what the fuck? Like, look, I'm having lunch. Yes, so fucking A. We're at your house. Yeah.

Thanks for the stuff. Yeah, and your dog is not here. Well, how do you, now, like I notice now with the last one, the weapons of self-destruction, was that what it was? Yeah. That you are taking, you know, more risks than you have before with your own life and yourself. I am, but it's also that weird thing of still talking kind of in general terms versus hardcore specific terms, which is like that thing that you leave either for... At one point I had a therapist go, are you comfortable talking about this? I went, maybe.

It's that idea of, like I told you with Chris, he was talking about stuff. I went, wow, would that I had the balls. But at the time I was in the middle of a divorce, you're going, not good. Initially I was going to call the tour Remember the Alimony. And they went, maybe not. Not until we get the paper signed. You're not paying alimony, number one. Number two, not profitable.

And the idea of... Well, that's bitter. There's a line where... Yeah, I mean, someone said recently that they saw John Cleese was going through this divorce, and he was on stage, and he was so angry that the audience at one point was like, Stop! Right, because bitterness is not... I tried to sell it for a long time,

and it's really just amplified self-pity. Totally. And it reads that way. And people kind of go, I get it, but move on. Right, that's the weird thing about people, is that... If you can talk, it's that old acting thing The more personal you make it, the more specific you make it The more people relate to you

Because they'll go, as personal as you think it is There's a lot of people going, I feel that Well, that's where you get them But where to get that in comedy is a little trickier Yeah, because you walk over that line and going I feel this and I want to burn And you go, no, no, we don't feel that. Right, right, exactly.

Or they go, don't share that part. Well, then you have to accept that idea that where they can, you know, where either they laugh with you or they laugh at you. At some point you have to be comfortable if they're laughing at you. You're comfortable with either one laughing at you. Can you tolerate that? And that's maybe sometimes where I go, oh, go. You know, the insecure part goes no no what do you what

are you afraid will happen i guess it's that fear if you'll recognize that you know as you know how insecure are we really yeah how desperately insecure did we that made us do this for a living well i just i went to your imdb page and over the the 25 years of of appearance changes, I think that they can. I'm going away the beard. You have a beard. You have a beard. You're fat. You're thin.

You're blonde hair. You're bald. It's that weird thing. But those are a lot of times for characters. But it's the idea of at what point, you know, what level of acceptance, like you said. And look what we do for a living in terms of stand up. You get to do stuff that if you did it, you did it just on the street, people go, Batman. Yeah.

You talked about his penis to me openly. Right. And you're going, but you do it in a club, all of a sudden there's license to thrill, that old thing,

you can do this stuff. But, like you said, the line, stepping over and back over the line, of like, what are you going to find out? You're going to find out

that you're this weird, insecure guy who does this and looking, like Lenny Bruce said, for love. Going, do you love me? Yeah. Temporarily?

Yeah. Kind of? Yeah. And can you put that at risk? Going, I don't care if you love me. I've got to say this shit. And that's why I guess sometimes you go, is that an artist? Or is it a sociopath?

Yeah. Or a psychopath? Well, let's not make labels. I'm not going to label him. In fact, he stabbed that guy. He's a genius. He's a genius. He's a good man. What's not call him. I'm not going to label him. In fact, he stabbed that guy. He's a genius. He's a genius. He's a good man.

What's his name? Buddy Hitler. Yeah, that's the Norman Mailer school. He can write that guy. Oh, boy. God bless him. Yeah. But do you find that you really feel like you, like, when you grew up, because, like,

my relationship with my parents sort of defined, you know, who I am. Mine, too. But were your parents absent? No. My father, when I was young, he was a vice president of Lincoln Mercury, like a sales division. So he was all over the Midwest. He'd come back, and I know he'd come back because all of a sudden

it'd be like this new corgi toy. He'd be like, I brought you back. I'd look like a thing. I was like, cool. You were only child? Yeah. And I have two half-brothers. One I found out later on back a little, like a thing. It was like, cool. You were only child? Yeah. And I have two half-brothers. One I found out later on.

For a long time, they told me he was my cousin. It's a bit like Nicholson going, Lauren's your cousin. Then when I got to be 12, I went, no, actually, he's your half-brother. It's like, you know, I felt like Nicholson should walk in. What is it?

Is he your brother or your cousin? And then, you know, my mother, very, very, really funny, terminal optimist. Everything is wonderful, beautiful. My father is the hardcore pessimist. I asked when I told him I wanted to be an actor. He said, great, have a backup profession like welding. But it was like between the two of them, I got this weird kind of,

not cynical, but hyper-realism and this hyper-optimism of my mother, of like everything is rainbows and beauty. And a bit like Tom Cruise, all you need is vitamins and exercise, and then you'll be fine. Right. Even while I'm addicted to Coke, we can get you through that. That's vitamins. Yeah.

Vitamin C. Yeah. Columbian calcium. But it was like between the two of them, you get this weird desire to connect with her using kind of comedy and entertainment. And my father about, you know, look at the world realistically. Be hardcore, you know. That pony's going to shit sometime.

I guess there was this old, I don't know who said this, years ago, your mother knows how to push your buttons because she installed them. Right. And I used to have this pillow that my mother saw that said, if it's not one thing, it's your mother. And she was, what does that mean? I went, I don't know, Mom. Yeah. What do you want it to mean? See, them or the wife, you know someone's gonna get like oh so how because it seems like you're you're you're back on the scene

you know doing stand-up regularly yeah and you've got the big how do you deal with the bitterness of your peers and and what they direct at you because you know the things are said in the community yeah i mean a lot of it's old school a lot of it's true from the way past but you know and what they direct at you? Because things are said in the community. Yeah, I mean, a lot of it's old school and a lot of it's true from the way past. But I don't hang out in the community. I mean, the community up here is pretty mild compared to down there. I mean, in New York, I feel safe.

L.A., I get kind of like, oh, I don't know. What about the whole, like, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't address it because it's something that I want to talk to you about and it's something I hear all the time and I think it's demeaning, this whole stealing issue. I think in the old days, if you hang out in comedy clubs when I was doing almost 24-7, you hear things, and then if you're improvising, all of a sudden you're repeating, going, oh, shit.

Right, that's the way your brain works. My brain was working that way. And then I literally had to go through a period where I'm not going to hang out anymore. I can't, because I don't want to get into that thing. And it was also like the bank of comedy. Oh, shit, here you go. Here's anymore. I can't because I don't want to get into that thing. And it was also like the bank of comedy went, oh, shit, here you go. Here's money. I'm sorry. I didn't know that.

Oh, shit. Is that how you dealt with it? I just paid shitloads of cash. I was just like, here you go. I'm sorry. And then after a while, I went, I bought that line already. I'm sorry. And then they have to pay again.

I went, oh, fuck, I'm sorry. So just guys who would come up to you and say, you know, I do that. And I went, but so does everybody. Right. Like there's other stuff that's common material. Sure. There's other things that go, fuck, you know, I do that. And I go, but so does everybody. Right. It's like there's other stuff that's common material. Sure. And there's other things that you go, fuck, you're right. I'm sorry.

I heard that. And then it was like, okay. And then I went, I can't hang out in here anymore. And then it took literally going, when I go here to the Throckmorton, I'll see friends and I can hang out like with Overton. Sure. Or you see Steve and all these other guys. And it's like, oh, cool.

I'm okay. That's why it's kind of like living up here. I don't worry about it. In New York, I go, I can go on and hang up upstairs in the restaurant and then go on stage. I don't want to sit down and watch comics all the time. But, you know, in the old days, yeah, there was that whole thing about just going from club to club to club. It's one of my, yeah. Yeah, there are a lot of people who would say there were styles, but he's doing him.

I go, yeah, it's Sandra Berthardt's doing Taylor Negron. Yes. You know, you go, like, at that point, you're like but he's doing him I go yeah it's Anna Bernhardt's doing Taylor Negron yes you know you go like at that point you're going look at the blending well that behind

every genius there's a guy going he stole my soul but it's that whole thing of what's the bitterness versus do you want to hang out do you engage in you say what's the truth of it

yeah I know the truth of the old days but now it's like I don't hang so I don't know well that's the weirdest thing is that like there's this idea

that when you have show business, which is just a community of bitter people aspiring to something, and they're children because what they're aspiring to is ridiculous. I mean, you've had a tremendous career for a lot of reasons, but there's a lot of people that they just go to Hollywood. I used to do a line where I said it took me years to realize Hollywood wasn't my parents. Wow, looking for approval.

Just like, I'm here, where's my trailer? And I think that the bitterness that when people dismiss somebody who's had a career as big and huge as yours, that the idea that if he didn't take that one joke, he wouldn't be Robin Williams.

It's ridiculous. Even if you look at someone like Pryor, who literally did Cosby for the first two years of his life. Before the auteur theory of comedy happened in the late 50s, where comics actually owned their point of view, I mean, it was what people did. I mean, the Worshelt guys were like, are you doing that bit about the uncle tonight? Can I do it? All right. And it was interchangeable.

It's also the idea of common ground when you say, when there's certain fucking subjects you go, you talk about, are you talking about the president? Fuck, I talk about the president. Well, yeah. Well, there's a difference between like, it's not. But a joke, joke. A joke, joke. You can get why it's a crafted thing going, if someone does a joke, joke.

Right. But then there's also jokes that are so fucking public domain. That's right. Public domain just happens. How can everyone not? There's 10,000 comedians. We're all drawing from the same reality pool, give or take. Yeah, you're like, okay, you got the Olympic joke. Public domain just happens. How can everyone not? There's 10,000 comedians we're all drawing from the same reality pool

give or take. Yeah, you're like, okay, I got the limbic joke. Of course. Of course. Stop masturbating. Why? Because I'm trying to examine you.

It's like these things. But then, the truly unique guys don't give a fuck. Sure. They're just like, well, I won't do it anymore. But no one ever accused

Andy Kaufman because he was so strange that he was just going, he's a genius. I went, yeah, fuckin' A. What were some of the, did you know him well? Yeah, I mean, I was talking to someone the other day. I only had one conversation with Andy where he wasn't talking to me as a character. And what was that like?

Were you concerned? Not at all. He just went, hi, Rob and I. How are you? I went, good, Andy. How are you? Really good. I'm just here buying something.

It was at some health food store. And then by the end of the conversation, slowly but surely, he went back to this. And I went, okay, I see you. Take care. And that was that? Yeah. What were some of the most powerful moments for you, either in movies or just with people? I mean, you've worked with everybody.

Where you were like, that's who this guy is. I never, like De Niro or Pacino or Pryor or any of those. There's a great moment with De Niro. We're shooting Awakenings and we're doing a scene where I'm taking him to the Bronx. He's on the medication and we're taking him in a car in the Bronx for the first time out of the hospital. We do one take and I'm driving around for another setup. And all of a sudden this old black wino sees him in the front seat

and yells out, hey Bobby, you still like black pussy? And then all of a sudden we give him, rolling, and he's just like, he's laughing so hard

that it's just like, oh my God. My other favorite moment is with Jeff Bridges when we're shooting a scene and something screws up and he says to me, he said, it's just like, oh, my God. My other favorite moment is with Jeff Bridges. We're shooting a scene and something screws up. And he says to me, he said, it's okay. It's a gift. If something screws up, you know, it's like the idea that it's a gift.

Don't be afraid of it, you know. It's like that idea of every time when you're making a movie, that forces you to make something special that you didn't plan. To get it real. Yeah, so real. But also, you know, you're in that moment and you're forced to deal with it

and deal with it together with the other actor. And with him, it was a blast because you're like, you know, you're playing off of someone who's so good. That's why when he won, finally it was like, dude, you know.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's high time. He deserved it so many other times. Oh, big time. You know, he's one of those guys who's just like cranking away doing great work and finally went, no, take anything off the top shelf. You know, he's one of those guys who's just like cranking away doing great work and finally went,

no, take anything off the top shelf. Yeah. You know, the bottom line for me with comics and like you said about the bitterness

or whatever, you just realize it's the world and you also start to realize I know it's out there but I still enjoy doing this. I still enjoy performing and you know,

say what you say, it's all right. Does it still, does it kind of sting sometimes? Fuck yeah, but it's also, I still love doing this. I'm not going to stop because all of a sudden you're. It's all right. Does it still, does it kind of sting sometimes? Fuck yeah. But it's also, I still love doing this. I'm not going to stop

because all of a sudden you're going, you fucking hack. I may be, but I love doing it. You know, I like, and occasionally I'll find something and I'll go,

I think it's good. And I'm getting more, like when you see, like you said, you go through your bitter phase and you come out the other side and you go, I just want to talk about this shit.

Yeah. The thing is, is like about all that all that you know how people define comics and and and their bitterness the the consistency that you have to light up a fucking room but just i mean just to go on and just to try to light it up and people are just sitting there waiting when's robin gonna you know open it up and then you know you always delivered is that something you is that for me it's a fun thing to say open it up is the idea that always deliver. Is that something you... For me, it's a fun thing to say, open it up is the idea. That's the operative word to say, if that's what you're looking for,

to go to find that moment where you can, like you get it, and then when you don't get to open up, it's a bit like, okay, didn't get that moment tonight, but maybe you will. It's like open field running for a running back. All of a sudden, there's the whole, they broke through, and then you can do it. And you found it. I've seen you do that too, where you look and you got an idea. I think it's the idea of why do we do it?

Because it's there. But it's also still that same desire that started off going, love me. But now it's into something, I'm okay, I'm going to still do it. The one thing I'm trying to get rid of is it starts with love me, and then I'm like, do you still love me now? Well, I love you. You said the thing about, you said the thing about our old Jesus,

if he'd lived. Oh yeah, bitter Jesus. Bitter Jesus in the water up to his ankles. I used to be able to walk. But it's like an amazing gift that I don't really, you know,

like when people talk about stand-up, like I don't know where it comes from. I don't know where the jokes come from. I don't know how I stand up there and get the laughs. Yeah, but you know, it's a weird thing when it comes from

that place you don't know. When you find a new thing, isn't it a bit like, it's like a high, like an endorphin what-the-fuck moment? Well, yeah, I think that I do what you do, and to some degree, is that a lot of times I just have ideas, and I'll start talking about them on stage, and wait and hope something's delivered. You're literally cornering yourself in a situation in front of people that you have to be funny to get out of this.

Yeah, and you're saying, okay, I'm going to go on stage, and I'm going to find it, because you're going to help me find this. Right, right. If I feel comfortable. And you're going to empower me to break through. Right.

And if it's an intelligent audience, you're going to help me, and if you're a drunken, late-night, fucking bridge-and-tunnel crowd, I'm going to beat my brains out, and you're going to end up doing a date joke. Good luck.

That's right. Yeah, that's right. But it's the idea of you're hoping for that moment of, you're going to help me through this. And that's the moment. And then you just hope like,

oh, if I can repeat that moment. I'm going to put that magic in the bottle. You know, how the fuck do I do that again? I'll be back. Yeah. I can find myself.

So are you happy? Are you all right? Are you all right? Yeah, really. I mean, divorce done? Done. So are you happy? Are you all right? Are you all right? Yeah, really. I mean... Divorce done? Done. And, you know, dealt with, I mean, I think as much love as we can do with that situation.

And being around her, being around my kids is really much more like, I love you guys. I live separately, but I'm okay. You know? How old are your kids? 28 now. Yeah, 21 almost. And 18. So they're old enough to understand.

Oh, way, way old enough. And also to know that they're going, you seem better. I mean, like they seem, because I'm not like, hey, you know. I mean, it's difficult for them, but they're all like they've dealt with it. I used to do a bit where I'd say, you know, I just, I never recovered from my parents' divorce. I was 35. But it must be, I mean, it must be very hard because the whole idea of the unit.

The unit is now two separate units. But if there's not hostility and it's done, it's done. No, no. I mean, that is pretty amazing on that level. And you have someone new in your life. Yeah, a wonderful person and living here in this place. And I'm pretty much like, okay, it's a different game. The idea of going back out on the road right away, no, I'm all right right now.

How's the heart? The heart's good. The new valve, the cow valve, which sounds like a Chris Walken routine. More cow valves, but it's working. And as someone said, I was talking to somebody saying, do you realize that you've had so many second chances with, you know, number one, the alcoholism coming out of that, and then the heart surgery and divorce and all these different things going,

there's a lot to talk about, my friend. Yeah. And you come out the other side going, what's to be angry about? You're a live fucker. Right. You know? There was that, because I heard you talk about it on Kimmel's show or something, because I noticed it with Letterman, too, is that after his surgery, the vulnerability.

Oh, he leaned over to me at one point. Who, Kimmel or Letterman? No, Letterman leaned over and said, did you find yourself getting really emotional after this surgery? And I started to go, yeah. And he said, we're back. And I went, oh, fuck, I'm not going to break down. I'm not going to pour a ball over Walter's.

But it is that thing you get more emotional because literally they've cracked the armor. You know, all of a sudden, you know, emotional because literally they've cracked the armor. You know, you've all of a sudden, you know, guys are like, fuck you, man. I'm armored up. And then the moment

they seal you open and it's like literally you are, you know, you have this scar here that they opened your ass up and literally to the world

went inside, fixed the box and then sealed you back up again and said, you're back. It's wild that that box really is connected to the,

that the heart is really the heart. Huge. And that that box really is connected to the, that the heart is really the heart. Huge. And to that and how men, I mean, I don't know if women are protected as much because they have the fun pillows, but the idea of guys will be like, you know, you'll see a guy toughen up like that, you know, while you're like that. The typical body language of when guys get tense is like, yeah, you can't fuck with me. Then suddenly they tighten up here and tighten up and hackles on the neck.

Right. And then when they crack that open, did it stay with you? I mean, you are conscious of it? Yeah. You're very conscious because there's wires and shit. And you're literally like, you're so vulnerable in a weird way. And the drugs they give you are so powerful that you wake up going, I went, where am I? Cleveland.

Why? Yeah. Heart surgery. Oh, fuck yeah. The drug they gave me for the surgery was the drug that Michael was using to sleep on. Michael Jackson was taking propofol as basically for sleeping, and one doctor described this. He said it's like taking propofol for sleep

disorder is like doing chemotherapy because you're tired of shaving your head. It is so fucking insanely powerful drug that it's designed for surgery. Right. The fact that somebody was administering to this, even though it was a doctor, said, you're administering basically the most powerful

anesthesia there is. Now, did you, like, before the heart surgery, were you somebody that was hung up on that, the mortality element? Oh, no. Literally, I went, they found it. I didn't go in going, yeah, you do this. What are the odds?

I knew with the doctor I picked that the odds were really great. He'd done 4,000 surgeries. All of them had gone well. I didn't know the after surgeries, but the idea that,

the idea of dying under the knife with a valve replacement is really small. But is it fair? You go, is it a possibility? Everybody around me was like, oh, God.

You know, I went, I made the choice. Once you make the choice, you've gone like, I'm in. This is going to be better because right now I'm flapping in the wind, you know. And the idea of, you know, if you didn't have the surgery, then you really are playing dice, you know. So before you had the heart problem, I mean, you don't seem to be someone who's morbidly fascinated or hung up on death.

No, I mean, that's weird. I mean, when I was drinking, there was only one time, even for a moment, where I thought, oh, fuck life. And I went like, then even my conscious brain went, did you honestly just say fuck life? I went, you know, you have a pretty

good life as it is right now. Have you noticed the two houses? Yes. Have you noticed the girlfriend? Yes.

Have you noticed that things are pretty good even though you may not be working right now? Yes. Okay, let's put the

suicide over here on discussable. Let's leave that over here in the discussion area. We'll talk about that. First of all, you don't have the balls to do it. I'm not going to say it out loud.

I mean, have you thought about buying a gun? No. What are you going to do? Cut your wrist with a water pick? Maybe. So that's erosion. What are you thinking about that? So can I put this over here in the what the fuck category?

Yes, let's put that over here in what the fuck. Can I ask you what you're doing right now? You're sitting naked in a hotel room with a bottle of Jack Daniels? Yes. Is this maybe influencing your decision? Possibly. Okay, we're going to put that over here, and tomorrow morning, and who's that in the bed there? I don't know.

Okay, well, don't discuss this with her, because she may tweet it. Okay? This may not be good. Let's put that over here in the what the fuck category. We're going to put that over here Possibly for therapy If you want to talk about that Therapy

Or maybe a podcast Yeah Two years from now You want to talk about it On the podcast No I feel safe Are you talking You're talking about it

On the podcast I know Who is this It's your conscience asshole Oh Okay So Have you ever thought about it

Since then No During the surgery Were you thinking about death? No. Why? Because you just were thinking, everything's going to be fine. Was that your mother talking?

Maybe. She was a Christian scientist who had plastic surgery. Wow. Is that a mixed message? Yeah, that is. Okay. Now, we're going to go back to the podcast now because Mark's sitting here. But we're talking now.

It's going to be, I know it would feel like golf commentary. But, you know, look, Tiger's back. Tiger's playing. Tiger's doing well. I was hoping that some of the tweets would have golf metaphors like, you know, choke up rather than choke. Or like, you know, I'm going to hold you down and putt from the rough. No, he didn't say that, you know. It's all good.

We're back. Thank you. That was wonderful. Thank you. It's a nice interval. We're back. Thank you. That was wonderful. Thank you. It's a nice interval. A nice interval of discussions of death. It's very freeing. Thank you.

Yeah, but I guess it's a little, you know, you've had all this stuff and there really is a certain degree of like, it doesn't matter. Big time. It just doesn't matter. That's the kind of the freedom freedom the ultimate freedom of letting go in a weird way like when you talked about all this stuff

the shit that they say about you I know it's out there and it used to be it would immobilize me it would hurt your feelings oh it hurts everything you're just going to go

oh I shouldn't perform no you love performing go out and perform people will say good things people will say bad things it's the nature of the world it's like

as Tina Fey once said, if you're ever feeling really good about yourself, there's this thing called the Internet. Now, at this point in your life, going on stage, being around people you have a good time with, and seeing people like Pearl, seeing people like Overton, and hanging out with friends, and you go, oh, God, and hanging with you even at the Comedy Cellar,

going upstairs and just riffing, that's worth it to me more than worrying about, oh, how am I doing? I got the gig. I remember one night sitting with Rodney Dangerfield. I think he was doing Blow, but he was going, I'm sweating. I don't know why I'm sweating. I own the club. It's weird.

It's crazy. And he said, Robin, when you look in the mirror, how can you say you look normal? At that point, he had like a weird kind of afro, kind of a jufro thing going on. Rodney, I don't know, don't tell me it's weird. Joe says I'm a celebrity.

My dog's looking at me and Joe answers it because you're a celebrity, Rodney. But it's that weird thing of you got the gig at this point. I mean,

all that other stuff is like... And you live like a person up here. I mean, you live like up here because there's no... Well,

there's this idea that celebrities, I mean, there is a rarefied air to there's no, well, there's this idea that celebrities, I mean, there is a rarefied air to it because you guys can't hang out with everybody. You can't,

but you, up here, up in, living in Marin, which is kind of like, you know, north of San Francisco is like,

the idea, I mean, if there's a paparazzi here, there's one and I don't know where he is and he's probably wandering around. But it's not ostentatious,

it's comfortable, you know. It's comfortable. I mean, that's basically life right now. It's the idea of, this is it. I don't know where he is, and he's probably wandering around. But it's not ostentatious. It's comfortable. It's comfortable. I mean, that's basically life right now. It's the idea of this is it. I don't need to live. I can't.

I mean, I don't do well in L.A. if I was living in a gated community. Yeah. You know, even though this is down a little hill. But all these people, they've got neighbors, and they've got kids, and they run around. It's okay. It's like when you go to New York. You know, the moment you walk on the streets in New York, you get good, you get bad.

Hey, you suck. I love you. Hey, fuck off. I ain't open the door for you. Fuck you. That's the idea. Where do you live now? Me?

Yeah. I live up in Highland Park. I live in a small two-bedroom cabin-like house overlooking the barrio of East L.A. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And it depends how I want people to experience the ride over. If I want them to experience Juarez, I say come down York. If I want them to experience just the upper middle class.

That's for me. It was like when I come to L.A., I had a friend who said, you don't know L.A. except for Beverly Hills and Bel Air. All of a sudden, you go down lower Melrose and you get into this other area. Oh, yeah. Fucking A, dude. That's where I found this bike shop. I went, this is my shop. Yeah.

Singles. What is that about the bike thing? You spend, how much time do you spend in France a year? I haven't been there in the last, since Lance quit. So it's been a while. And since they trashed Floyd, so I haven't been back. But I've gone to. Oh, you don't have a house over there or anything?

No, never. I wish. You're not doing the Belzer? No, the Belzer. Yeah, he's out there. Zool. Yeah, yeah. That's a weird thing.

To live in France. I don't think I could. I like visiting there. Belzer, R. Crumb, and's out there. Zool. Yeah, yeah. That's a weird thing. To live in France. I don't think I could. I like visiting there. Belzer, Arkrum, and Johnny Depp. That's the expatriate community over there. That's a great my dinner with. Yeah, I'll say. Fuck, man.

Well, you know, I thank you for the time. I'm glad you're feeling well. Me too, boss, and thanks for coming here. Thanks for making it easier than having to, you know. Where are you going? There's a hotel in the city. No, no. Mr. Mann! Yes, we are here.

Mr. Morgan, I love it for you. Come on now. That's what I thought. Thank God this was organized. I didn't want to have a King of Comedy moment where I'm in your house. He's touching everything. Rest in peace, Robin Williams. You are missed.

And thank you, Dave Itzkoff, for talking earlier. And thank you for writing the book. And no music today. It's okay. Let's just sit with this. Boomer lives! Thank you.