WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 931 - Boots Riley / Bobcat Goldthwait

Episode Date: July 8, 2018

Filmmaker and hip hop artist Boots Riley wants his audiences to be radically engaged. He grew up with parents who were organizers and he believes political radicalism prompts cultural change. Boots and Marc talk about social movements, power structures, and how he wanted to take on all of it with his years-in-the-making movie, Sorry To Bother You. Also, Bobcat Goldthwait returns to the garage to talk about grief, getting older, and his new series Misfits and Monsters. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF.

Thank you. Thank you for coming. Thank you for hanging out. How's everything going with you? How's the drive going? How's the running going? How's your biking experience? How's the subway?

What's going on on the bus? Where you at? How are you doing out there with the yard work? Good to have you. Welcome. Welcome. Be careful with that tool. Please be careful with that knife. Please be careful with that scalding water. All right.

Pay attention. Pay attention. Hey, don't forget your kids upstairs. All right. I just wanted to expand the greetings a bit. Today is a pretty packed show, really. A couple of film directors, one a musician and film director, the other a comedian and film director, both engaging conversations. Bobcat Goldthwait stopped by for a short conversation that always turns into a longer conversation with me, because that's just my nature i guess with some people he's got misfits and monsters premiering this wednesday on true tv july 11th sounds interesting but it was good to see bobby because we we had not talked about the passing of our friend barry crimmons and uh and and just that experience and it got it got a little heavy. But grief is part of life. And being there for somebody in that time is is it's an honor in a way.

It sounds like a tremendous burden and sad undertaking. But I think it's an honor. I think we're built to to handle that stuff. And we're supposed to be there handle that stuff and and and we're supposed to be there for that i i really think that but i but look i don't want to get morbid or or uh dark it was a great conversation so bobcat's on the longer talk would be uh coming up after that with boots riley the uh the rapper uh you might know him from the coup but he's got a new movie coming out it's called sorry to bother, which he wrote and directed. It's playing now in theaters around.

It opens everywhere this Friday, July 13th. I watched it. It's crazy. It's a crazy movie. But in a good way. It's very provocative. So what's going on with you? How's it going?

It's very hot here. It's very hot here in Los Angeles. what's going on with you? How's it going? It's very hot here. It's very hot here in Los Angeles. And as we all know, those of us who are willing to accept a certain amount of truth based in science that, you know, global warming is upon us. Hey, you know, don't don't don't touch that dial. It's not going to be OK. And we're all complicit. We all contributed. Yeah. Granted, there are bigger contributors. I mean, and some of us, you know, do what we can, you know, you bring your own bag to the supermarket, maybe you buy a hybrid or an electric car, maybe you stop eating meat. So there's not as many farting cows and what used to be the

rainforest emitting methane. That's a deteriorating, whatever protections we have. I mean, maybe you do what you can. And obviously, extreme capitalism and industry is at the cutting edge of this. Even with reforms and regulations, we seem to just be plowing ahead into a convection oven. But I just kept thinking about how everybody involved in modern society, given a few beautifully self-righteous hermits, are complicit. And there's some element of our need to be engaged with all this crap that supposedly makes life convenient or entertaining, but is very taxing to the environment to make. It's just interesting to me that some part of us thinks like we're kids.

We're like little kids trying to get away with something. And at the core of that is the shame of knowing we fucked up. So when it does happen, a lot of people, I have to assume, are going to be like, well, I guess we saw this coming. We hedged our bets. We took a chance. We thought maybe it would adapt. Maybe there was some sort of precedent set at a time before our knowing of this type of heat. And we just forged on. But no, we're all complicit.

You get to a point where you're doing everything you can to not feel shitty about what feels shitty inside you, whatever it is, on a cultural level, on a collective level, on a group level, on an individual level, until you just come to a fork in the road. And that fork in the road is the fuck it or fix it fork. Either you're going to be like, fuck it. This is the way I'm going to live the rest of my life. I don't give a fuck. And that type of aggressive, self-aware, on purpose denial has a broad arc to it that can that can go from just paralyzing apathy

and just all the way to fucking murder and then you have the fix-it road much harder you got to make sacrifices you got to you know you got to change things you got to help other people change things so you know we're definitely at a fuck it or fix it fork collectively and the fixing it thing seems to be way out of hand because of the way the structure of the power dynamic is right now. But you can't drift into the fuck it. Good times. I know how to party. Do you?

Bobcat Goldthwait. The Bobcat. Bobby. Yeah, him and I go back. I remember seeing him when he moved away from Boston in his early 20s to become a massive star. He had a garage sale at Stitch's Comedy Club, and I was there in my recollection. So was Emerson student David Cross. But over the years, Bobby's done many movies. He directed a lot of television. He's directed several episodes of my show. He directed one of my comedy specials. He directed some great movies. He did last year's documentary about Barry Crimmins, who passed away recently. And it was sad.

But he's got a new show out. It's on TruTV. It's called Bob Goldthwait's Misfits and Monsters. It premieres this Wednesday, July 11th. And this is me having a chat with Bobby Bobcat. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find

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Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Look at that. There we go. Have you ever seen me without a hat? I'm kind of jarred by it. It's jarring. I don't know if it's the first time.

Could it possibly be? Could be. Maybe it would have been great if I had a big head of hair that I've just been hiding all these years. I think I've seen you with a little more hair. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I must have seen you without a hat. But I mean, you always shave it down that much? No, I just said've seen you with a little more hair. Yeah. I mean, like, I feel like I must have seen you without a hat. But, I mean, you always shave it down that much?

No, I just said, who are we kidding? Oh, really? Yeah. Recently. Yeah, I like it. I think it looks better. Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, you got the strong chin growth. Yeah.

Which, you know, is pulling it. It pulls the focus. It pulls the focus. I didn't even notice he was bald. I was so obsessed looking at his face. You know what? His chin. I was thinking about this, about how you start your show.

Yeah. The guests are always confused. Oh, right. Oh, did we start? I think I did an hour the other day with Boots Riley, and he's like, are we going? What are we going to do? Now we're into it. But it reminded me of doing Gary Shandling's show.

Oh, yeah? Because he was really big on that. He would have the red light on the cameras off, and he'd go, let's just talk about what we're going to do. This was for- Larry Sanders. Oh, really? Yeah. And he'd go, and you'll talk about what we're going to do. This was for? Larry Sanders. Oh, really? Yeah. And he'd go, and you'll say this and I'll say that

and then you'd start doing it and you would knock the scene out. And he realized it was running? And he was really smart. Either that, I think maybe he just didn't want me screaming. Right. You're the only guy he did it with. Yeah, yeah. I hope he did it with other people he turned

he actually muted the red light on the camera yeah yeah oh that's great and so you know when you're blocking a scene the cameras are up and everything and yeah and then you go no we we got that one i still don't know which one to fucking look at i'm always looking at the wrong fucking camera on talk shows if it's a three camera shoot i guarantee you i'm just looking at the one in front of me yeah it's it's uh and then they're in the you you, I'm just looking at the one in front of me. Yeah. And then they're in the, you know, I used to direct Kimmel, so we're in the booth trying to make sure people aren't looking at the lens. I don't know why. You don't want them to.

Traditionally, but I always thought, I mean. But when they look out to the audience, they should catch the camera. Or when you're saying goodbye, you should like, you know, Kimmel knows which one to look at. I'm looking somewhere else. I'm waving, you know, stagemel knows what you want to look at. I'm looking somewhere else. I'm waving, you know, stage left. Like you're in a float. I, yeah, this is really pretentious. I was a guest on Kimmel, and I had a hold up, because I had directed the show for years.

I really didn't do this. It was Pavlovian. I went, camera three. Yeah. I really did. I called camera. What a dick. But was. Yeah. I really did. I called camera. What a dick. But was it really?

It really was. It really was. I go, camera three. Because you were there for so long. Yeah, and it's just this, it's a weird skill. Yeah. There's some cats who, now that I'm shooting more TV on Glow, there are people, real actors or actors that have been doing it a while, they know exactly where their camera is.

They know exactly where, you know, like for me, like I'm like, which one were we on for that one? Was that my cover? I don't, I'm not. Yeah. Like I've gotten better at like, this is your coverage. I'm like, okay. Yeah. I just worked with Melissa Joan Hart.

Yeah. And at one point I go, well, let's swap lenses, put a 50. And she goes, why are we putting a 50 on? Like she knew something was wrong. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Oh at one point I go, well, let's swap lenses, put a 50. And she goes, why are we putting a 50 on? Like she knew something was wrong. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Unfortunately, we had hired a child. Why am I telling this story? Who was replaced. So I just started getting her coverage. Hey, I had to replace a baby for racial reasons. I mean, don't be afraid of replacing kids. No, but I had on God Bless America, a baby gets shot in the first couple minutes of the movie. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I remember that movie. It was done tastefully. It's those uplifting Bobcat movies. Yeah, and so we go to do that scene. I was like, give me an ugly baby. I wanted a crying ugly baby, like a pug- face child yeah and the kid was cute but the dad comes in and he's just like what are we shooting today and i go

your baby thinking that production maybe he gave him a heads up what the scene entailed and they hadn't oh my god it was so awkward what'd he say Basically, we gave him another 500 bucks and everything was cool. That's very disturbing, but okay. Okay. And then the kid wouldn't cry. Covered in blood? No, no. No, it was the baby wouldn't cry because that's, you know, why we shoot him.

I mean, it's a fantasy and stuff. I mean, I like to dig holes at the beginning. And it's weird. You can't make a baby cry on purpose. You know, you just got to hope for the best. Wait around, and I was taking toys away from it. Oh, so you were kind of pushing it. Yeah, I was having the dad walk away.

Bye. Yeah. And then I'd love to tell you I'm a better man than this, but I really got down on my knees, and I was going, in the kid's face. Just to scare it? Yeah, and it would cry as long as I was doing, in the kid's face. Just to scare it? Yeah, and it would cry as long as I was doing that.

And as soon as I'd dip out, it would stop crying. So I was dangling keys over the camera lens, so the kid was looking up there and growling. Well, I did a commercial a long time ago where I played some sort of coach, and they wanted me to get reaction shots from the kids and they were supposed to be sad and I have no children.

I don't know. So I got these kids who were like seven or eight years old and one of them, I said, do you like Harry Potter? The kid's like, yeah. And I go, he dies in the next movie. And on the lunch break, the crew couldn't

even look at me like I literally was like no no no don't say they're moving away the food yeah

I did that once yeah but I was dressed as a bunny rabbit for some wacky photo shoot in the 80s and I just thought

it'd be funny if the kid was crying and people hated me because that was terrible they hate that but I unless they're immigrant kids there's about you know 45% of the population Yeah. And people hated me. Terrible. They hate that. But I-

Unless you're immigrant kids. There's about 45% of the population has no problem with that. Yeah, about crying babies. Yeah, being taken away. Oh, my goodness. It's horrible times. No shit. So we don't have to go into that.

Let's talk about grief. I haven't spoken to you since Barry passed, and I know he was your best friend and on to a lighter so yeah uh yeah tomorrow is barry's birthday oh i just found out in uh inman square they're naming a street really yeah i just found out as i pulled up yeah uh oh that's great that's nice yeah it was uh you were there yeah yeah. I was with his wife, Helen, for the last couple days. It was, I don't know. I've never experienced that. I've never either. That was the first time you've done it.

And you spent so much time with him with the documentary and with the whole process. Well, what happened was, I was, and also there was a friend of us who was a hospice keeper he came in but for the last i don't know for days it was you know he was in a well he was in a coma towards the end uh-huh induced or uh not really because your your liver uh when it malfunctions yeah these toxins go to your brain and it's terrifying. Yeah. In pure Barry fashion, too. Like, he just, we were, before he went into a coma, we were holding him down and they

were, they kept giving him harder drugs to knock him out because he was just writhing and trying to pull tubes out. Yeah. him out because he was just writhing and trying to pull tubes out and yeah but uh you know he he he was no novice with drugs right so we couldn't knock him out and and he was fighting us it was like it was three and a half hours of holding him while he fought with us. I said it was like landing a marlin. It was sad. I remember one point I was holding his head and combing his hair, and I said, it's okay, sweetie. And then I was like, I mean, I sound like a ghoul, but, you know, this is the – I go, it's okay, sweetie.

And then I said to Helen,en i said he's really gone because he should have punched me right now and i don't even know why i called him sweetie i was just holding his head and combing his hair yeah but yeah so he he uh yeah towards the end i had been there and i and i wouldn't leave helen hadn't eaten in days and i was trying to get her to eat and so i went out to get uh some sandwiches and then while i was gone he woke up and looked at her he turned his head and looked over at her and she says i love you everyone loves you it's okay you can go yeah and then i think i don't know what to make of that it actually i realize now watching someone pass away is an honor and i know and and then

it made me really change my brain about faith like yeah i really really yeah because i was like you know the fact that he waited for me to leave or whatever you know and i i love that idea who wants to be a third wheel you know yeah yeah you know it made me feel like there is possibly some rhyme or reason to this madness because i was gone i was only gone for a couple minutes these last couple days. Yeah, and that's when he went. And he got to have this moment with her. It was pretty wonderful. No, it was.

I mean, they didn't want me there. Right, right. But I did, you know, so she texts me, get back here ASAP. And I come in and he's gone and she's crying and I go, and I have the sandwiches and I'm like, what'd I miss? I really did. She did like a triple take.

Did she laugh at all? She was really like, I think she was like, is he that stupid? And then she burst out laughing and we were, and as I was saying this, I was even going, wow, you're two thoughts. I was like, wow, you're really saying this. And two, I was like,

Barry would love it. Love it. Yeah. So, so, uh, and we just, yeah.

And I think also to go through that, I mean, it seems to me from what I understand that, you know, it's, it's sort of a relief. Oh, the amount of pain he was in. And there's no coming back. There's no coming back. And it's, and it's sort of a relief. Oh, the amount of pain he was in.

Yeah, and there's no coming back, and it's a long process. And it's, so when you love and you're seeing him in that much pain for a long time, and then people, it's just really strange. You know, he's not on any machines at this point. He's just there to pass away.

Right. And someone comes in and they're like, have a, just blue, you know, red tape. It's like,

they're asking, does Barry have stairs at home? Does Barry have, and it's like. Well, who is this? This was like some administration person. Oh, because he was in hospice

and. Yeah. And I'm like, just read the room, you know. Yeah. Does Barry. He's not going up the stairs. Yeah the room you know does Barry he's not going up the stairs

does Barry have a problem with his pogo stick it was the worst he's just so I don't know where I'm at at processing lately I have a lot of anger towards Robin's passing

and I mean Robin was the person who I was most in touch with out of all my friends. Right. Yeah. And you didn't see it coming. Well, I mean, he had Lewy body dementia, which is a disease, which is, it was misdiagnosed as Parkinson's. Right. So, yeah, for a while while i did not see him taking his own life i you know i told him i said you're not allowed to hurt yourself and he was like okay

and and uh but he didn't process reality in the way because of the disease yeah yeah and and you know he was doing you know he was going to a couple doctors. He was working a program. He was doing all these things. But, you know, it's just lately, and I'm talking to you about it, which is weird, but there's a lot of books and documentaries and things. And my thing is I don't want to participate, and it's not out of any other reason than I think just because I just, you know, I remember saying to his son, you know.

Zach? Yeah, I said, you know, right when he passed away, I said, you know, one of the biggest stars in the world died, and on the same day your dad died. Right. So that's where i'm at is just this is a different relationship and people are going to remember him however i like getting it out that he had his problems but yeah i mean i have said this you know you said people will say

to me you know just like you know did he ever talk to you about suicide i'm like we're we're comedians we talked about suicide for 31'm like, we're comedians. We talked about suicide for 31 years. Sometimes we would talk about other things. Right. Hey, congratulations on the Oscar. Oh, thanks. How would you do it?

I think a car. I think I'd do it in a car. So I love that guy. I miss him. And then this guy who was my friend and my mentor, and I made a movie about him. I'm making a, which is going to be difficult, but I think it also will help.

I'm doing a narrative film, which was the original idea for Call Me Lucky. It wasn't a documentary. So you're going to do the whole childhood and, you know. I haven't even really broke the story yet, but we're doing it how does that end um i think it can end very hopeful i mean it's it's we end at the hearings are you gonna well i i haven't really figured it out but i do feel like i mean the documentary call me lucky

was dealing with the darkest of dark subjects and and I do still think we managed to, at the end, make it uplifting and hopeful. I know, but he died. You know what? You're not the first to say this, because he and I discussed this, and I was like, well, I got an ending to the picture. Oh, no.

Oh, yeah. Can I say this? So doing the movie i'm writing it with judd apatow and he's producing it for call me lucky yeah to do the the narrative version which originally robin the idea was for him to to play it and then robin said we're getting too old you should make a documentary yeah he gave me the money to start Call Me Lucky. Uh-huh. So Barry's like really ill and he drags me into the kitchen and I think he's going to tell me that he loves me or that he's going to tell me to take care of Helen. He's got something important and he's like, I want Mark Ruffalo to play me in the movie.

Yeah. And I go, I don't want to talk about the movie right now. And he goes, I want Mark Ruffalo to play me in the movie. I go, i don't want to talk about the movie right now and he goes i want mark ruffalo to play me in the movie i go i want chris pine to play me and he's like who's chris pine i go how do you know mark ruffalo you want chris pine to play you yeah i was joking and then he goes i go how do you know mark ruffalo he goes oh i i really like him when he speaks at fracking demonstrations it's all right he's a good choice so did you reach out no i i gotta gotta write it and all that yeah i know i sound like a ghoul about make cracking jokes about these no you don't sound like a comedian what are you gonna do i mean it's like and it's how we process grief yeah i think that comedy is is you know is helpful in easing the

the the immediate pain of it. I mean, I don't think it does anything to stifle it, and I don't think it's inappropriate. But I think the funny thing is, or maybe it depends what listeners make of what I've just said, but in our hands, it is kind of acceptable. But when a layperson tries to crack a joke around these, it's very horrible. Unless it's a really good joke.

Yeah, I'm not saying they shouldn't try, but it can go really poorly. I'm sure it can. But, you know, it's one of those zones where I think a lot of times behavior, odd behavior, you know, over the top is sort of forgiven, you know, when somebody's been, you's been leveled by grief. Who the hell knows what's going to happen? My dad showed up at his father's funeral just cracking jokes, running around,

slapping backs. I think he was manic, but that's another story. No, but I've witnessed that. Yeah. It just seems like some people act appropriate and then other people... Act or there's money involved. Or it's just bananas.

Yeah. So now, is Zinneman writing a piece on you? I believe there's a piece, yes. Now this show, you've been trying to make this for a while, right? Yeah, it was like about seven years ago I went out and people were saying, what kind of show would you make? And I said, I want to do an anthology show. And basically, they wouldn't validate my parking, let alone finish the meeting.

Really? No, yeah, I went certain places. I pitched an anthology series. And twice in meetings, people said, well, what else would you like to do? And I said, no, that's it. I mean, why is there an aversion to an anthology series because they don't think people can follow it or that you know that see the one thing about you that i know and i've said i said this to i think i said it to cinnamon talking about you is is that you know you direct if you direct television

it is sort of a weird utilitarian job like Like, you know, a lot of times, you know, you just, the direct, the show's already got a format. The show's got a look, tone. Yeah, and you just go to do the shots. Yeah. But I said, you're one of those guys that no matter what the situation is,

your tone runs so deep that you can feel it no matter what. Oh, well, thanks. So, you know, so like I would think that, but who am I to assume that executives would understand that? So I would think that, but who am I to assume that executives would understand that? So I would think that an anthology show with your specific tone, especially where it ended up, you know, sort of a horror thing or a weirdo thing, it would be good, you know? Well, yeah.

I mean, I truly believe that it's the fact that other anthology series came out. So now they're comfortable doing that. But I do think True was trying to give me a license to do what I do. But how many other places did you go? What was the journey like? I went this time, Olivia Wingate. My old manager. Yeah, and she's the one that took me out.

And we went to places. And unlike seven years ago, now it was met receptively. There was a couple other places that were interested. So you pitched it seven years ago and then you just bailed on it for a while?

Yeah. Put it on the back burner, directed some comedy specials, a movie, some TV shows. And I'm always writing. I always write more movies and I write the,

there's eight episodes of this but I wrote 11 other outlines. So I just like to tell stories. So what is the show? Explain it to me. It is each week is completely different cast, different genres. Different genres. Yeah. Ranging from it's I like to take and I realize this goes all the way back to shakes. You know, that's a noir film, but I'm making fun of comedians.

Clowns. Yeah. It's a satire about comics as noir as clowns yeah so it's yeah and that same kind of thing goes into this show like there's a episode with david kechner is like a he's a used car salesman it's in the 70s it's not like the candidate or all the president's men there's a cub reporter they run this guy who does his own tv commercials one of those guys as a president and he's a werewolf and uh he ate a toddler he's a werewolf yeah and you'll find that out i'm assuming till midway no right away when they're asking him there's anything we should know that's going to bite us in the ass in the campaign he goes oh yeah and i'm a werewolf uh because he's talking about cheating on his wife for all these other things and i oh and i had a toddler when i was a werewolf and it's like well no it's perfect and they and so this is a private meeting that they yeah yeah yeah and so in true

you know i mean i don't want to ruin the episode for folks but you know it it it does break the story and he's like i'm a werewolf but i'm an american first and he's like the checkers uh nixon you know he's crying oh that's funny and america loves this werewolf so yeah so that's that was a 70s it was a whole bunch of things smashed together i did do uh there's like the twilight kind of Tales of the Crypt. I would say more Twilight Zone because Tales of the Crypt I like that show but someone would do something evil and then they'd get their comeuppance.

Right. So the format's slightly predictable. Yeah. On this show. You'll let evil people succeed. Occasionally. Yeah. I mean there is like upbeat endings where you're going well that's I feel dirty that person. Do you come out in a hat and host it? Hi, I'm Bob Keckle.

Hi, I'm Bob Keckle. No, I did not. I kind of think I'm a distraction. I also think a half an hour television, you know, is- Tight. Not a lot of time. So for me to be up there- Oh, really?

Full, you're just doing 22, 23 minute pieces? Yeah, which I like. When I went back and looked at Twilight Zone, those half an hour ones are the ones that we tend to remember and stuff. So there's like one Bridget Everett's,

that one's more like an MGM musical, but she's a racist mermaid is basically. Yeah. I shot that in Weeki Wachee, Florida. Did you shoot it

like a music, like a MGM? Yeah, there's musical numbers and- Did you saturate that color? Yeah, that's the whole goal, yeah. Oh you shoot it like a music, like a, from 8 p.m.? Yeah, there's musical numbers. Oh, yeah? Did you saturate that color? Yeah, that's the whole goal,

yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah. Oh, great. I did, Tom Kenny worked on some of them doing, there's one episode that's almost all animated

and he came in. Yeah, but there's, so the first. We've got the 70s one, we've got the musical one with Neptune, we've got an almost

all animated one, so that's three. but with Neptune. We've got an almost all animated one. So that's three. But there's another one that has an animated character. It's like Roger Rabbit and Cape Fear. And it's very violent. And Seth Green plays a guy who is the voice of a very popular, beloved cartoon bear. And the bear comes to life because he hates the way he makes him sound and he wants to kill him.

He's like, well, why you gotta make me stutter? That's something funny for kids? I will send you to hell. Oh, wow. That's great. Then he reminds me of the, like, when I realized that Chris Collins,

remember Chris Collins? Sure. Made a lot of his money doing voiceovers. I said, boy, parents have no idea what is behind that cute little character. It was entertaining their kids, yeah. That to me was revelatory. Yeah, that guy was dark. Yeah, it's like Satan is entertaining your children.

Well, it's funny because I did the episode of the Bubba the Bear episode, and I kind of thought it was influenced by Tom Kenny. He's been my best friend since I was six. Yeah. He does SpongeBob and a lot of other characters' voices. It wasn't until I finished the episode that my daughter, who is the costume designer on the show, she was like, you didn't get that that's you?

This character that almost kills you? Yeah. That you can't escape? You wrote it? You don't get that that's you this character that almost kills you yeah that you can't escape you wrote it you don't get it i really didn't i was like oh it's yeah it is oh that's wild that's uh it's exciting when you don't do that stuff on purpose oh no and and often when i'm writing these things i write them really fast and i don't think about what even the movies like i'll later on i'll watch them and i and it'll be pointed out to me. It's like, that's you. I was like, oh, I really didn't. It seems like it's a comedic answer

to Black Mirror in a way. Yeah, I hope. I mean, I like Black Mirror. I had to stop watching them so I wouldn't be influenced. I'm sure it has helped get it going. I should probably send them a fruit basket. Sure.

Thanks for helping the green light. Yeah. But yeah, it's comedic. Most episodes, there is some sort of subtext, and hopefully it's funny, and there's always... Sounds great. Thanks, man. It's fun rolling it out and starting to show it

to people for the first time. I was at a film festival and we showed an episode, and one thing thing that i didn't count on it was nice that people liked it and they're laughing but people got caught up and they were worried about the characters like there was tension in the room uh-huh which i'm which i understand so that they that means the characters were grounded in some sort of reality even though it's a giant animated bear trying to kill. But part of me is like going, wow, this is cool. Another part of me is like, I just talked to Seth Green. He's fine.

Yeah, and also like, what the fuck is wrong with you people? It's a cartoon. It's a TV show. What's going on in this world? Not real. Not real. So yeah, that's the Misfits misfits and monsters i did eight of them and i'm gonna work on the berry narrative and um finishing up ron funch's special that i just shot

and uh did a pilot for comedy central for some friends of mine wow yeah busy as fuck yeah good man i truly did think i didn't know well you're probably the same way what what would i be doing at this age yeah i uh like i i i didn't uh i didn't know i'm just happy to be making a living yeah there's that but i i you know i walked away from everything in a way i stopped auditioning i stopped doing things because i really did like being behind the camera yeah but when I started making telling stories I did it with a crew from Craigslist and you know and I didn't do it because I wanted to be reinvented I just did it because I love telling stories and now at this point to be getting paid and getting a chance to

tell more stories yeah It's pretty awesome. No, it's great. I don't know where I thought I would be. I didn't think it would be good. Right. Yeah. But today, this morning, it hit me. It's like, you know what?

I paid bills for 25 years. It's like you got to work. That's the thing. No matter what you think your standards are, at a certain point, you got to survive. Yeah, and there's something to be said for that. And you have a talent, and you know that you do it well. You know, if it's not working out the way you want it to work out,

that's just the way it is. Boo-hoo. Yeah. Well, it's great to see you, man. Yeah, it's great to see you. Thanks for stopping by. Thanks. All right, that was Bobcat Goldthwait talking about, among other things,

Misfits and Monsters premieres this Wednesday, July 11th on TruTV. Can you dig it? Can you? Boots Riley does a lot of things. And what he's here for today is to talk about his new film that he wrote and directed, Sorry to Bother You. And we'll talk a bit about his music and other stuff and common friends in the Bay Area. And he's going to teach me some things that I apparently needed to learn. But it was great seeing him. I hadn't seen him in a long time. I don't know him, but I did interview him once before years ago. And it was nice to have him over. We had a fine chat. So this is me and Boots Riley.

So where are you living now? Same place, Oakland, California. You do? So you're just coming down here to promote the movie? Yeah, I've been here a lot, you know, even just doing posts. Right, sure, yeah. uh but yeah promoting the movie um putting last minute i was up all night last night uh yeah putting last minute tweaks to the mix of the soundtrack really yeah so you're kind of tired a little bit well right this second i'm not but

uh it'll happen if i stop talking for too long, I might fall asleep. I had, you know, who came over the other day, I think, you know, Nato Green? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was down here for a couple days, and he stopped by, and we- He's in the movie for a second. I know, I saw that.

And Kamau? Yep. Kamau's in there, too? Yep. And Kamau, that was like the patch-up of a quiet feud. Not a feud, but just kind of. Between you and Kamau? Yeah, I mean, we were friends.

It wasn't a feud, but. How far back do you go? He's an Oakland guy, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, he's Chicago and came to the Bay Area because he thought nobody else was funny, and so he could do well there. Oh, is that why? No, I'm just.

I think he did say something that means that. Yeah. You know, like he could take over the Bay Area. But yeah, he had walked out on a, I did this weird show like a few years ago that was like a theater sort of experimental thing called the Coup's Shadow Box with multiple stages. And I have a song called You Are Not a Riot,

and one of the lyrics say, you are a sitcom based on a torture chamber. So in this crazy show, when I say that lyric, all the lights go off in the place, and then this other stage lights up, and it's set up like a sitcom with the torture chamber. And it's set up like a sitcom with the torture chamber. And it goes, and then people do this not funny, supposedly funny thing with the laugh track with the torture chamber. It's not supposed to be funny.

Right. You're not supposed to. Sure. Nobody's going to laugh. Right. It's a big, broad, satirical punch. Yeah. Yeah.

But I think, you know i recruited kamal to play to be one of the people in that and it's hard right for a comedian being the tortured people yeah yeah in this case he was one of the torturers uh-huh and uh i think he didn't get the fact that it wasn't supposed like like no matter what joke you tell, it's not going to be funny. People are just going to be like, what the hell is this? That's okay. He thought you set him up.

No, I mean, I told him what it was. He really didn't. He didn't like that. And so in between shows, I got a text from him saying, I can't do this. And he split. And he split.

And I understand why somebody would do that. He thinks it's a sinking ship. He doesn't want to be doing that. But in the middle of a live show? In the middle of a live show. He's right now listening to this mad that I'm bringing it up. He'll be all right. But he is a good friend.

Yeah, I saw his one-person show in Oakland. That was a great show. He's doing well. I haven't talked to him in a while. But now what happened with that live show? Because it seems like that seems to be part of the building blocks of what brought your mind to this movie. Well, what happened with that live show is it took me six months to make happen. And it was fun.

And I want to see it happen again again but i don't want to be involved in it the production of it yeah like you know like i in that thing i you know was part of helping build the sets and right full theater it wasn't yeah but no that wasn't the building blocks of this i started out in film school you did like what would in oakland i started before that i started out in theater but yeah. Where did you come from originally? You were originally from Oakland? Yeah, I was born in Chicago, moved to Detroit when I was one, and then moved to Oakland the first time when I was six.

Oh, so you were really young. Yeah, so I've been there for a while. And what was the scene like? What were your folks doing? My parents were radical organizers really yeah and uh my father came up in the civil rights movement he actually when he was 12 he joined the NAACP and by virtue of that became the founding member of the Durham chapter of the NAACP in North Carolina yeah uh-huh and, yeah. At 12? At 12. Really?

Yeah. Huh. And he tried to get his church to support the civil rights movement. Yeah. And they said that that was blasphemous for him to be in church, suggesting that they get involved in worldly things. A lot of people have the assumption that the black church was very involved in worldly things. A lot of people have the assumption that the black church was very involved

in the civil rights movement, but actually they weren't. That's why they needed something like the Southern Christian Leadership Conference to be like, we are the people in the black church that are down for the civil rights movement. Right, right. So yeah, he joined CORE and then he came to the bay

area with core how old was he then uh he had graduated high school by then oh um is he still around yeah oh that's good yeah yeah yeah he's he makes uh he's in in the movie he's an extra in the movie is he so so he comes to the matter of fact he uh was part of the san francisco state strike in 1968 that created uh ethnic studies and that's where uh he met danny glover oh so they go way back my friend yeah oh wow and and and your mom comes from where this uh my mother died a few years ago sorry and. And she's from New York. So they were both radical community organizers? Yeah. Yes. I guess. What is the word radical as opposed to radical versus just community? And so, you know, my father's politics have changed from that. So,

you know, I know that he probably would want me to put that caveat in there. But he yeah, I mean, he was involved in revolutionary organization called the Progressive Labor Party. Mm hmm. And was that a socialist organization? Yeah. Yeah. In Oakland. No, it was everywhere. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He was inago with it in detroit he was a full-time organizer in detroit but he stayed out of the the panther scene uh yeah he wasn't in he wasn't in the panthers he uh he helped he was part of kathleen cleaver's campaign at one point but yeah no um so you have a real history of radical engagement you grew up with it

yeah by the time I was eight yeah my parents were burnt out of that scene oh yeah that's so but because I knew about you know you get an organizer yeah you and he became a lawyer. Oh, he did? Yeah. Like a civil rights lawyer? He does that as well, and that's what he's known for. But he initially was a criminal defense lawyer. He thought of that as being just as important. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, and so he was a public defender. Now, do you feel like when you say burnt out,

do you feel like, have you talked to him about you know that the arc of the 60s i mean what did they feel like that that there was a different way to fight it or that the things had gotten too chaotic or what i think you know what happens in many organizations and i've seen that through organizations that i'm in is they implode because they're humans right yeah right and. And not only that, not that it's all destined to implode, but they're destined to have conflict. Yeah. And heavy conflict. And when you have heavy conflict and things are at a lull. Yeah.

Then it ends up being all these splits and then you end up splitting into these tiny organizations right you know i think in the 60s uh what the left became was mainly focused around spectacle yeah whereas like say 40 years before that it was attached directly to class struggle and to labor yeah yeah which which meant that you are telling people in the working class that you have leverage power right that they're that it's not just about raising your voice and saying i don't like this that you know you are you you have your your power point is in your economic system and yeah not just in you know because right now when we say you have power in numbers we imagine that there's a hundred thousand people in the street carrying

signs and that's what does it someone gets shamed into changing policy yeah or something like that and you know the reason that they were called demonstrations in the 20s and 30s is because they were like these are 50,000 people that can shut down your industry. Yeah, right. And they did. There were strikes all over. Right, to build the unions. Not just to build the unions, but yes, they were to,

I mean, the building the unions was a means to an end because this was at a time when the leaders of those labor struggles were openly radical in calling for social change and that these strikes were not only raising wages, but building a power base by which to demand policy changes. There were strikes going on all over the country. There was in Alabama, over the country there was in alabama uh utah colorado um montana these places were called hotbeds of communist activity by j. edgar hoover these the places that are red states were those people's grandparents were red right labor or radical right labor organizers and part of the

way radical not not even just part i mean not when we think of the labor movement now it's pretty liberal right um these were folks who were in that time they were openly calling for the uh change getting rid of the capitalist system right and and um and so uh not only that then in the midwest you had people occupying factories on the West Coast. The longshoremen were battling for their union and fighting tanks. And in the midst of all of that, you had and you had this thing called War One veterans marched, many of them armed to the White House to demand their bonus pay. Yeah. And got met by tanks by General MacArthur in that whole milieu that was happening. That's where we got the New Deal, not by electing the right person. Right. Right. By protest. not by electing the right person.

Right. Right. By protest. And not just by protest. By, because they were, because people were withholding labor for, to,

to make, to, to get wage changes, but, but also showing that they could cause damage to the bottom line. Right. Which I think even the most conservative person understands that this system, that the people who have power in the system are the people with money. Right the U.S. wanted the U.S. to go to war against Hitler. And there was the United Front Against Fascism. And part of that whole deal was that radicals in the U.S. would go underground and not fight against the U.S. while they were fighting Hitler.

Right. And not fight against the U.S. while they were fighting Hitler. Right. And that backfired because then 12 years later, you had the McCarthy era where they were like, look at all these people that are hiding who they are. Whereas 12, 15 years before, they wouldn't have been able to say that. People would be like, yes, dummy, I know they're a communist because they told me and they've been working with me and we've been right trying to find fascism yeah so the mccarthy era combined with atrocities that were found out about stalin and and really the cp usa's non-response to it yeah um was um what broke the biggest radical organization up in the u.S. and made all these little groups that became the new left of the 1960s. The new left of the 1960s response was basically like being open.

We are radicals. We are revolutionaries. And these were like directly related to the previous organizations. Yeah. However, they focused on students yeah for the first time in history you heard the students are the revolution and it was not historically accurate it was not how any other revolution had been been made up to that point was just by focusing on students and so they moved people to the cities and away from those areas that that then got left

alone the midwest and not just the midwest but you know places like montana and alabama sure you know and they were they were purged from unions but that fight was given up right so now you have something where students are focused on and everything is about getting people into the streets yeah right right and and even to the extent that sometimes everything is about getting people into the streets yeah right right and and even to the extent that sometimes when they're getting people into the streets are about like we're gonna bust some windows even that's just spectacle right it's not you know for the however people say oh it causes some damage does not cause anywhere near as much damage to the bottom line as near as much damage to the bottom line as withholding labor for a day or two or whatever,

you know? And so spectacle became the way that we did things. And so radicals started hiding. They started hiding in academia, started hiding in art, of which I'm one of them, right? Well, I mean, the spectacle, it seems that that you know if uh you know from you know i'm no no historian or anything but i've been watching stuff lately on the vietnam war that the actual spectacle though it didn't affect the bottom line once it provoked violence in the streets and enough tension for uh people to become aware of of what was being fought it was it had there was some success there.

That's where I disagree with. I've heard that line and you're following, you're saying the thing that a lot of very smart people have said. Yeah. But I disagree with that. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, obviously, again, essentializing. Yes, sure. There are victories won in many different kinds of ways.

But I think that what we do when we do that is when we say, look, let your voice be heard. That's what you can do. We kind of are saying that's all you can do yeah right and then we are we are we are reinforcing this idea that power works uh with a conscience you know that power somehow um concedes to humanity yeah and and and that there's some sort of democracy happening when people get out in the street. And I think it's important for people to get out in the street to let each other know what the issues are and things like that. But that's not the thing that, you know, I've been involved in calling people out to things where, you know, thousands of people come out and then some of the people that are new are like, okay, what now? And then the organizers kind of look at each other like, I don't know. We did this thing. You know?

And it's because the left has been hiding from going away from class struggle for the past 50, 60 years. In hiding in academia and arts, you say? And what I mean by that is, yeah, these jobs, when you do them, you end up wanting to give yourself an excuse for only doing that because it takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time if you're a professor to write a book and teach these classes and stuff like that. So you end up, and if you're an artist, you end up doing stuff that inspires people to become artists and academics.

Right, so you're saying on some level, even your involvement, but it seems like that there's a muted result that if they're not in the streets and working with the people and they're just writing books or inspiring students or or or raising awareness through music and i'm not saying i'm not saying that people aren't also in the streets but i'm saying what yeah what what we've focused on yeah are these you know so a lot of what has been now comes to be thought of as what the left is about.

Are these things are really inspired by academic circles and the need to be artists. We focus on linguistics and we focus on, you know, terminology that and it's because that's all we have right now. You're not saying that we shouldn't talk about those things. Right. But. Well, what do you think is the, like, I mean, because I know that in your music career that the sort of push against capitalism is always a theme all the way through. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's the source of many of the problems.

Yeah. I think that, and it's not just because i've picked something and i see it and i i think that um what what anthropologists and sociologists will even say is that culture uh comes from the way that we survive you know like it's it does it's not just something that's genetic or so the things that we do the way we say things the way we come it it's it's built upon a base and a base of how we survive so fishing villages create fishing songs right like it's not like you're like wow i really don't like fishing songs yeah and i really wish that this village would start singing agricultural songs right you can teach them

agricultural songs and they may they may like the tune yeah but the fishing songs are gonna just feel better because they're connected to the way that they live and they're going to keep coming back you know and so the way our life is organized the way that we survive is based on exploitation and there are things that grow out of that and they're there you know racism has a utility you know i can't scientifically say I have test groups that can say that racism would not exist outside of capitalism. But I know that right now what we're dealing with, what we're trying to fight against has a reason to exist and has a reason that it's promoted. Right. You know, and so.

And what's that reason? Okay. At this point. So one way to talk about it is let's talk about cop shows. Yeah. Cop shows are, I believe they have a function. the viewers and to put the idea out there that poverty is created by the bad choices of the impoverished. That, you know, these crimes that they're identifying are being done because people haven't figured out the right path.

Right. Right. Yeah. are being done because people haven't figured out the right path. Right. Right. Yeah. That it doesn't come because we live in an economic system that necessitates poverty, that that must have a certain amount.

You know, capitalism must actually have a certain amount of unemployed people in order to survive. They need that that army of unemployed people in order to threaten your job. You know, places like the Wall Street Journal, they will openly worry when the unemployment rate starts going down too low, because that means, you know, there's a direct correlation between wages going up when unemployment goes down, because there's less risk of you losing your job and people ask for more. You know, if there was complete employment, nobody could fire you because they couldn't replace you.

Right. And, you know, and and so your wages, you wouldn't even need a union struggle. Right. Right. And and so stocks go down when wages go up. Anyway, cop shows explain it as having nothing to do with the economic system yeah having that poverty is basically a choice right and and it comes from this cultures that are insufficient yeah you know yeah bad parenting bad family, bad neighborhood. Yeah. Just someone that's really erratic. And, you know, and and these are the racist. They use these racist tropes to say to not just prove something about people of color and black folks, but to prove that the system is OK. of color and black folks yeah but to prove that the system is okay and you white guy that's making nineteen thousand dollars a year one you're actually middle class that's what they're saying

right at nineteen thousand yeah and then two you're not like them your poverty is you you're smart you know right yeah right you uh you've got credit. This is not who you should be. Right. Yeah. And you're if you do see yourself as impoverished, it's temporary because there's no way that you are making bad decisions. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. So when you start noticing this stuff, I mean, having that you brought up in a house where these issues are constantly around. And it's funny because actually in my household, they weren't. I think the one reason that if you look at folks with radical parents, yeah, they're not usually involved in stuff later on. They kind of go the other way, not the other way, not Alex P. Keaton. later on they kind of go the other way not the other way they're not alex p keaton but you know they aren't really involved a lot because i think one danger that happens is then i have to check

myself with my kids yeah because one danger that happens is you are so entrenched in trying to change the way things are that you want to get a head start with your kids and start telling them all these things about how the world is and right and those ideas become yours and not theirs uh-huh and um and so they try to find their own way maybe they're not going to join so they push back and and to the extent that maybe they don't push back, but just look for something else. Right. Right. Right. Did you do that? Well, the reason that I didn't is because that wasn't done to me. Right. Like I didn't. But you were aware. to help out the farm workers who were organizing an anti-racist farm workers union that my father... No, I went on my own. I mean, not on my own, but, you know. And I knew that he wouldn't be mad at me. Right.

You know, I knew, you know, but I didn't really know. I learned what the politics of all that was from other people. Like, he never, like, sat me down and said, this is the way the world is. Matter of fact, I remember Red Dawn. Me and my friends really wanted to go see Red Dawn. And that was a perfect time for him sort of light thing about it being, you know, gearing, you know, getting people to accept militarism. Yeah. But that was the the the most that he ever said. I remember that. And it really just I was like, whatever.

You know, we've got to be prepared for when the Russians attack. You know, yeah, you bought it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was the decision to to get into you say you were in theater early on uh yeah yeah my grandmother on my mother's side yeah uh ran the oakland ensemble theater oh yeah uh in the 70s and 80s and uh so i was around that i saw i remember her doing like flash gordon and like things that a couple things that i thought were cool the other stuff was like, you know. Like what?

Just people talking to each other. Oh, like more arty stuff or more? I don't even know because you're at that age. There's a couch on stage. Yeah, yeah. And there's somebody with a hat. And they're talking to each other. You're like, okay.

But you like the spectacle. Like you're following the bigger shows. Yeah, okay. But you liked the spectacle. Like you'd find the bigger shows. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that seemed like, oh, they're carrying a ray gun or something like that. But it's exciting, right, to see the stage. And that was inspiring to you? Yeah. I mean, I think it was.

I mean, of course, TV was the thing. You know? Like you could see that, that yeah they're acting and yeah all that kind of stuff but yeah i think later on people being creative around you and just it being a thing that's okay to do yeah where'd that start for you in high school yeah i uh i wrote a play yeah um which is probably also where I started rapping first. In high school? Mm-hmm. The teacher wanted to do West Side Story.

Yeah. And so we made our version of it called East Side Story. Uh-huh. And it had raps in it that I had to write. Yeah. And that was my first time. And people didn't boo. They didn't.

So you thought, maybe I got something. Like I could do something. and people didn't boo they didn't so so you thought maybe i got something yeah like i could do something well you know it feels like your your your style you know is a pretty it's honest and intelligent but it's straightforward like i don't feel like when i listen to your music that you're affecting anything like you're not being affected you know you know i'm putting on an affectation right you don't have a character per se yeah i don. I don't know. I mean, I think we all do. Well, of course. But, I mean, you're not doing it on purpose, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, yeah, you're right. You deal with intellectual things, you know, and you make them understandable. There's part of you, not unlike the conversation we just had, that feels a need to educate. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right?

Yeah, I like hearing myself talk, especially with these earphones. I was trying to make it sound a little better than that. Yeah, no. No, yeah, no, I'm really interested in those things and interested in connecting to people and interested in people engaging with the world, which brings me back to my movie, which the main character based on someone I know kind of is really,

you know, it's, it's one of the, the few movies with people of color where the, you know, one of the main motivations that um the main character has is has to do with figuring out why he's here and what and and wanting to engage and the existential question the movie's called sorry to bother you his name is lakeith

right lakeith stanfield who i love very he's he's a very funny great actor i do i do i think that like in the show atlanta uh i don't know him but uh i like the work he does on that show yeah and i like the work that he did in get out like i think he's a great actor but he's also got very unique timing to him yeah he's uh that's what i love about him is because um he's not worried so much about what he looks like on the outside. He's just worried about feeling the thing that he's supposed to be feeling that comes up with him doing things that are a little bit strange because he's not thinking about that and it works a lot better because you don't have somebody raising their eyebrow and saying i'm confused right now you know like yeah he's got his own timing he's in his own yeah his own time zone which seems yeah which makes you yeah it makes it more believable it's engaging too it reminded me like i don't know did you ever see putney swope you know uh ever since

i entered ever since i got into this, you know, I went through the Sundance Labs and- Oh, you did? Yeah. How does that work? Well, you apply with your script and I don't know even how they choose or whatever. Uh-huh. Because I applied once and didn't get in, then I applied again.

With the same movie? Yeah. You know, I'd made a few changes. Uh-huh. With this script. Sorry to bother you. Okay in, then I applied again. With the same movie? Yeah. You know, I had made a few changes. Uh-huh. With this script. Sorry to bother you. Okay. And then I got in.

And then what do you do there? And there are people that are masters of their craft that sit around and talk to you one-on-one for like a couple hours at a time about your script that they've read. And they talk to each other and kind of who are the people uh let's see so we had uh walter mosley uh joan tewksbury who wrote nashville so so you're sitting with these people and you know with your script they've read it you're in and in what and how long is the lab you guys it's just a matter of workshops so there's two labs i went through both the the the screenwriters lab yeah and the and the uh

director's lab right and so the the writer's lab which you do first and then you apply to the director because you've never done either written a written a screenplay this was my mom yeah yeah or directed yeah yeah well i had never written a screen period, whether it became a movie or not. Right. And I co-directed a music video. And I went to film school and had been involved in all kinds of different art projects. Where'd you go to film school? San Francisco State. So was that like for four years, two years?

I quit probably after two years because we got a record deal. And San Francisco, going to film school at San Francisco State is not like going to film school in LA or New York. Like I didn't know anybody that had made their film. At the time, there was one person that a couple of years later came out of there,

made a film called Dry Long. But we didn't know people that were making their films, and the people that I knew were getting jobs at ILM, and that was not something that I wanted to do. Industrial Light and Magic. Oh, right. Lucas? Yeah.

So it was definitely an interest to you, but even before music or alongside music, it was just exactly it was like i don't know it's all just one big creative mess and i'm always doing the thing i can do you do yeah you do a lot of stuff with your own groups and with collaborations and with ensembles i mean you seem to be a guy that just likes to keep creating yeah it's it's fun and it's uh it's a way to talk to people and kind of cut through style. I mean, to put a style on what you're saying and how you're saying it to people.

I mean, you know, I like to think that it's just for, you know, some lofty reasons. But, you know, I grew up addicted to TV and addicted to movies. But it seems to me like when I... I'm part of it. Like I was saying before that it's not even a teacher thing or an educator thing. It's not unlike a comedian. And I think that the new movie, this movie, Sorry to Bother You, it is a comedy. It's many things.

Right. I don't know how you classify it. Yeah, I don't either actually. But there are definitely comedic elements just because of the tone. I want people to be laughing. Yeah. I don't know if that classify it. Yeah, I don't either, actually. But there are definitely comedic elements just because of the tone. I want people to be laughing, but I don't know if that means it's a comedy. My thing is that not unlike a comedian, which is my trade, you seek to understand for yourself and share that understanding with others. Yes.

And the way you see the world and the struggles that we all face, that comes from your point of view. The way you understand them is what you're sharing with other people yes and and and that comes through in the music and it comes through in this and i would say this other thing that i have decided about comedy is that um you know a lot of times analysis analysis needs to be about heightening and showing contradiction. Right. You're like, this is how this works. Right.

Right. And how something works are things pushing against each other. Tension. Yeah. And that contradiction is a lot like irony. Yeah. And I think you're the comedian. So you would tell me i think irony is

very connected to comedy it can be yeah yeah sure and i think also though but like in my mind in terms of looking at this movie you remember that movie they live john carpenter that movie i felt some of that in this movie okay in your movie yeah that you know that you're walking by things where you're sort of like oh do you see what see what they just, you know what I mean? Like, make note of that. Yeah. Well, I wanted it to be chock full of detail. Right. And I wanted it to, I wanted it to, and this is going to be, I realize because I've said it a few times and as it's coming out, it sounds pretentious.

But I wanted it to feel like a novel in a certain way. Sure. Not in the novel in the sense of why did this person make this movie like a novel. But in the sense that, you know, there's all of these details that really build up and, you know, like if you, if it's a lot of my favorite writers, they won't just say he went to the store. Who are they? Just off the top, Gabriel Garcia Marquez,

Toni Morrison, Salman Rushdie, Michael Ondaatje. Oh yeah, Michael Ondaatje, yeah. Folks like that have this really syrupy details in what they're writing. Yeah, a lot of layers. Yeah, so like they won't just say, he went to the store they'll say he sauntered slowly to the store holding his a cup of coffee right and that cup had 20 years before been used by

his grandmother to murder his grandfather right you know and yeah and yeah a producer of a movie when you try to do the film version of that it it's like, why do you have all that stuff? Show them at the store. Yeah. You know? Right. But you wanted to put some of those layers in. Yeah.

And because, one, people watch movies over and over now. I mean, if they're good enough. Sure. And two, I wanted to figure out a way to not simulate real life, but to have things that felt like real life. Keep people on their toes and not knowing when to go to the bathroom. Right. Because it does float in a zone that's not, it doesn't feel like it's today, but it could be next week. In terms of where culture is at. Yeah. day but it could be next week you know in terms of where culture is at yeah and the thing is i

wrote it and i finished it the first time in 2012 and we put it out on mcsweeney's in 2014 but the script yeah oh really you publish it we published it as its own paperback book but but packaged with the quarterly oh so are you are you in with them with eggers and that crew yeah i ran into him on the street when i had the script and was gonna put it i was had thrown my hands in the air and was gonna just put it out on the internet and i was like well i want it to be as tight as possible could you read it and give me some notes um and he read it and then. Did he give you a note? Did Dave Eggers give you some notes? His note was an email with one line saying, this is one of the best unproduced screenplays I've ever read. Leave it as is.

I want to put it out. And, um. So it was first, it was published as a script before it was even considered into, even in any process to make it. into even in any process to make yeah i mean and that it his you know encouragement made me actually get my second wind and you know join sf film as a filmmaker in residence then uh i showed up at the sundance uh film festival with a bag full of these books and handing them out on the, on the, when was that? That was 2015. And the, and the SF film is a,

what is that? Uh, so S it used to be SF film society. They're just SF film and filmmaker in residence thing is where they basically give you office space in kind of a collective work thing. So this has been a multi-year thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. But you're still doing music, you know, alongside of it. collective work thing. So this has been a multi-year thing. Oh yeah, yeah.

But you're still doing music alongside of it. I had originally made an album right after I wrote the screenplay that was trying to get buzz for the screenplay. Which album? It was called Sorry to Bother You. Oh yeah, in 2012. Yeah. And that didn't work.

And so now it's going to be confusing because we made a whole new soundtrack for the movie which uh is coming out on endoscope and um you know they want to call it sorry to bother you as well the soundtrack oh that's good okay yeah so well let's walk through this one more time or pick up where we left off. So now that we got some backstory. So you get to Sundance Labs. You're hanging out with these veterans who are walking you through or at least engaging you in process. Well, I'll say the best thing that I got because. Yeah.

Well, first. Yeah. The Putney Swope thing. Yeah. People were like, oh, you got to see Putney Swope. Yeah. Well, first, the Putney Swope thing, people were like, oh, you got to see Putney Swope. Yeah. And I didn't want to because if it really had some similarities to it, I liked what I was doing. And I didn't want to change it because of this thing that probably not many other people saw.

And then I see it and I just don't, you know. Yeah. So you'd already been on your way so i plan i plan to see it but you haven't watched it watched it yet and uh that's good and uh but there's this guy kareem inus who was there and um he's a brazilian filmmaker based in berlin kind of and and he uh you know we had our meeting he was like hey um i don't really know what to tell you but i i don't know how to tell somebody about how to write their script yeah you know it's your thing yeah um and i'm really just here because they invite me to this resort in the

summertime how can i say no right and it's honest and he said but what i will tell you is i love your main character i love cassius i i want to protect him yeah i want to hang out with them right on a you know buy him a beer and just hug him yeah and he said and that's how i know it's bullshit because i hate everybody and and so we sat and we had like a four hour conversation about people in our lives that had different decision making points and, you know, talking about what was real. And and really I ended up realizing that, you know, the reason why he came off that way is because at the time I was having him just get bounced around like a pinball right and he didn't have a voice yeah he didn't he wasn't taking ownership he wasn't he wasn't the cause of anything oh so so the shift in that character that came out of that conversation would be him owning his actual him his him having agency right and and and and owning the the

promotion yeah that which is a big transition in the movie yeah and it actually that one thing changed so much of my movie i had to it had ripples throughout everything right right then that wasn't there initially no he just kind of like in the mcsweeney's version i don't think interesting so the the big shift was like uh yeah what's wrong with this yeah look at look how i'm living yeah yeah right yeah exactly huh that's interesting man so so in in this movie in terms of building this movie because you know we can't we can't give away the end things that happen at the end because it gets and even in the middle like there are certain things that, you know, like if I had my druthers, I would have the trailer just be all the cast sitting there saying, look at us.

We're good actors. Yeah. Why would we pick something shitty? Go see this movie. We're not going to tell you anything about it. Well, I don't think that you can. The weird thing about the movie, I don't think you can spoil the movie. The only way you could spoil the movie is just by revealing the insanity of the end but that doesn't spoil the story it just spoils this wonderful yeah but i think so the

experience i want people to have yeah isn't just about what happens at the end it's no no no but it's it is it can be ruined to a certain extent because just by seeing those things i i think what what i want people to have throughout the movie is this experience of discovery that that like visually try to take people through the emotional journey that cassius is going through which is a lot like, like when you discover new ideas. Because there's a few places throughout the movie besides, you know, the last parts where his view of the world and his relationship to the world changes. Right. And we visually feel that.

And I think that's part of what people are reacting to is that it's not just we don't just see him going through this and then we empathize with him or we agree or disagree it's you know we're forced to go through that with him because of yeah the vision and so if you're looking for it if somebody's like hey you gotta see this you going to see this part when you see the green shoe. Watch out. No, no, it's weird because it's completely jarring what we're not talking about. But it's not relative to the human story that you're telling. I don't know why you made the choices that you did in that last part of the movie.

Well, I will say this, that all the choices I made, because it's not only there where the movie is strange or does things that you're not supposed to do in the movie. I set out to write a movie that took place in the world of telemarketing and that there was going to be a struggle that he had to choose sides on.

That's all I knew when I'm making stuff, whether it's music or whatever. I'm always checking myself for for whether I'm doing it based on what I know to be real or based on what other artists have made. Like a love song, for instance, there's parameters that people think make up a love song. Do you love me? How much are you going to love me? How long are you going to love me? Why'd you leave me?

Yeah, all those sorts of things, which are valid concerns, but you have to stay within these parameters for it to be a love song. But your version of loving someone may be I you i'm attracted to you yeah i even gonna stay with you forever but can you not laugh like that in front of my friends because it's embarrassing right and um but if you were to put that in there it would seem trite or like you know because it's not a real it's not within the it's not it's not what other it's not what other artists have done right right

why'd you add the laughing part yeah yeah and and uh and but it may be more real and it may make you more passionate about what you're doing yeah um so i'm always checking myself for those things and with this you know as i had bigger ideas that that were were the result of me trying to decide what i really thought about certain situations i had choices of how to bring them in there which was i could have someone say these ideas which is boring and you know it's done so much whatever and then too i could have like some sort of hyper realistic situation that you gain empathy for the person because of the trials and tribulations so i didn't do that i found it more effective to bin reality. Yeah. And, and, and to point out, I,

I, it would, I, I did all of these things. I mean, it points out the parallels in our, in our actual reality. And I did all these things,

not just to put things in there, but because I, I found them to have, and with each of these things, I really had to ask myself am i really going to do this i didn't know that i was going to make a movie that was fantastical or right absurd it got that way yeah as i as i wrote it it i you know sure um and then when you now what'd you learn from the directing workshop you know going into that a lot enabled you to have confidence so

now by the time i'm going to the directing workshop i i'm into that enabled you to have confidence so now by the time i'm going to the directing workshop i i'm pretty sure i'm gonna make this movie right i mean it wasn't sure but i decided it was sure yeah and so you learn things a lot differently when when you have a way to apply them like instead of like seeing you know I'd go to these lectures that maybe in in film school would be there I take notes and yeah they're not going anywhere but if I go to a lecture by Judith Weston about acting for directors and we're talking about how you know how different things affect actors i'm i have something real to think about yeah and anyway and you're doing a movie so you're like i can apply this yeah and and and you're thinking about the different scenes so in this case the

director's labs uh they they you they help you cast it you know you get a casting director and you have actors that are in movies for real yeah you have actors that are are film actors so the at the lab you actually make the movie you go through all those points of production yeah you do like five scenes oh so you were able to cast a film while you were at the lab no i mean this was a whole different oh it's just learning how to do it yeah this we didn't use any of the cast of film while you were at the lab no i mean this was a whole different oh it's just learning how to do it yeah this we didn't use any of the we made you know we just kind of made demo tapes right you know what i'm saying i get it yeah and uh you get a crew of eight people and uh you know and and you get to work things out and then you have advisors like uh rodrigo prieto bradford young uh glenn close so i one, you need to be overprepared like I was,

but you also need to be able to throw it away and use that overpreparedness as just your knowledge of what's happening and be able to flow with. An actor might have an idea for blocking that really is cool that may then change where you're going to put the camera you know all those sorts of things but the thing i'm you know like pacing and how to get the pacing that i need how to how to talk that just gave me all that

yeah practice things that would have been you know would have really affected my movie yeah and you and you like ultimately you know in applying all these things you learn you know you got a great cast together and you got great voices together you got cross in there you've got forrest whitaker in there and then you've got naswell patton and uh and then you've got rosario dawson yeah those are just the voices. Yeah. And you got Danny Glover on camera, right? Yeah. And you got Lakeith, and he's great,

and that Tessa Thompson's great. Lakeith Stanfield, Tessa Thompson, Stephen Young, Terry Crews, Omari Hardwick, Armie Hammer. Yeah, he's disturbing. That's some great shit, and that's in the great shit. I was having so much fun. I mean, we did 61 locations in 28 days. Did you shoot around here?

In Oakland. In all in Oakland. Yeah, because that's where I could get shit for free. People knew you. That's where your friends are. But also, really, plus, that's where i could figure out really cool looking and you knew that you knew the places yeah but like the the story as you said is an existential story what is the meaning of life what do we do with our life what does life mean and you know you know

from just a description it's about a guy who needs a job he's got a girlfriend he's living at his uncles and you know and and it comes down to like i don't know what i gotta do and someone says well go get it just at least just go get a telemarketing job. And that's where it starts. And this is a common predicament for people. Just go get a telemarketing job. And then it kind of escalates from there. The advancing, how do you win?

How do you figure out how to sell? How do you put on your white voice? How do you move to the next level, the next level yeah that you get a hint of and then you start to see this character start to really you know like want find drive you find ambition yeah succeed i mean on those terms yeah i mean and and what's cool about the actors is that they all like put so much into it. I mean, obviously, being a first-time director, there are probably great directors that could take non-actors and make magic happen. Right.

I don't think I was that person. And I knew that about myself. And, you know, I've been a music producer for 20-something years, so I've done a similar process where there's five people in a room that all know more about music than I do. But I might find I might not like the music that they would produce on their own. And I have the vision. You're a good collaborator.

Exactly. And and also, you know, figuring out what can be pulled from each person, but how, what I'm saying is that these actors and the, the whole, you know, our production designer, costume designer, uh, uh,

DP, uh, they all like put so much into it and we're, we're down to do it. Like all the actors did, did it for scale. Yeah. And passed up some really great things.

And you got, and you got some good you got a lot of good stuff at him but also the visually it's pretty stunning and pretty wild and yeah you know there's a lot going on in every frame and they that whole element the recurring element of the live workspace what was that called again worry free worry free like that reminded me of like you know like that um those great satire movies like uh you know even like sort of a little robocop and and right right and a little think about it at the time but yes no no yeah i'm just saying that that sort of element of that yeah of that kind of like yeah and then the uh the other

thing i was thinking of was the uh uh what was that mike judge movie the idiocracy idiocracy well we got president camacho yeah you got him in there yeah but uh but like i like that tone like it's it's it's over the top but it's like it's close enough to real life to where you're like i get it you know what i mean that's not that far right but in terms of like what you've been working for or working towards or working with ideologically your entire life uh creatively you know about about capitalism, about, you know, ambition, about how it corrupts, about class. It seems like you were able to really, you know, engage all that stuff in this movie. Yeah, I think, I mean, I had people argue with me about taking, making it simpler, you

know, not, you know, pick the one thing and stretch it out for 80 minutes. Right. And then throw in the. What would the one thing be? Just his story? I don't know. I had all sorts of suggestions. But you wanted to load it up.

I wanted, yeah, I wanted it to be interesting. I wanted it to, you know, like I wanted to. I think it's right that you can put to you know and from from doing music i know there's a way that you can put too much shit on a track and then there's a way to put that same amount but organize it right so that it's okay and ends up becoming this count this polyrhythmic thing where all these things are countering each other and working. And sometimes you have some really great,

South American band doing the great, and then sometimes you have like jam band and nobody wants to listen. Except for those people. Yeah, I'm just messing with like jam band and right nobody wants to listen and uh except for those people yeah i'm just messing with the jam i i thought like there was a like there was a lot of like very exciting visual stuff in there and and a lot of great performances and and uh and it was a it was definitely an engaging uh fun movie to watch yeah i mean yeah it's it's I think that's that's the thing is that a lot of art that attempts to talk about whatever. Yeah. The way the world is, even though all art is talking about the way the world is. But but attempts to do it in a different way than, you know, what's what's happened or talk or talk about it from a different political perspective

than most things, gets bogged down in sort of this depressing thing. Oh, you mean when you're politically relevant? Like where it's about anger or something like that. And my art has never been about that, partly because, well, I don't think it's been about that. You know, like even our song, Five Million Ways to Kill a CEO.

Yeah. The way you kill a CEO is you put a $20 bill in the barrel of a gun and they try to suck it out. You know, things like that. Right. Or, you know, whatever. It's funny, I think. But it's because I have an optimism that's related to having an analysis

of how things could change. Not necessarily saying we're in the position to do that, but I can see a path. And so that makes my art uh so i hopeful and and to the point where sometimes i get accused by folks that think they're more uh left than me or whatever yeah they've not really oh why is this album as political as i heard it was gonna be you know Oh, yeah, the worst. Or whatever. It's the worst. I think it is very political, but I think, you know, I think also I want people to dance.

Yeah. Also I want people to laugh, and I think that those things are all connected to, like, how, you know, like, the organizers that I first came up around in the 80s, some of them were, um you know these folks from britain who came who had gotten politicized during the minor strike and their whole thing was you know you can't you know get somebody to join a strike if you can't have a pint with them you know yeah or you know like old you know jewish commies that had been in the cp usa that told everything they said was in a

joke you know yeah you know right and because it's all like part of like pointing things out and and it's part of like being alive and the reason that i'm talking about this stuff is because i like people yeah right and so but i think there's an aesthetic that has like kind of come out of the the the punk sort of side of things which is more i would say not necessarily by the followers of it but by some of the practitioners of it really more about the aesthetic than about actually changing things and so that aesthetic becomes more important. And then... Oh, that's interesting

because you kind of play on that in the movie with the radicals who are fighting against worry-free. Yeah. Right? Well, yeah. And it's... Yeah, I think it's... Well, in the movie, everybody sells out.

That's right. Well, that scene scene the performance art scenes rough dude right and funny but but that's that that's the aesthetic over content thing yeah in a way right there are things in that and i think that that scene is open and that yeah definitely that scene contains some of my critique of myself as well you know oh i thought you did a great job man and it's good to see you again man good seeing you i'll see you again in like 18 more years no when when did you press record oh oh fuck oh didn't when did i press record yeah i didn't ever see you do that and i just assumed because we were in the conversation that it eventually was recording i got it all man yeah i got it all good to see you good seeing

you all right that was boots riley sorry to bother you which he wrote and directed is now playing in select theaters it opens everywhere this friday july 13th i have not prepared any guitar but i will do some anyway Boomer lives! Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

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