WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 938 - Luzer Twersky

Episode Date: August 1, 2018

Luzer Twersky is an actor who has been seen on shows like Transparent and High Maintenance. But prior to 2008, he wasn't seen by anyone outside of his Hasidic Jewish community. Luzer tells Marc about his cloistered upbringing, the details of Hasidic life, his troublemaking as a youngster, his crisis of faith, and ultimately his exile from the only world he ever knew. Luzer also explains what role Marc played in his journey and where things stand now with the people from his past. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. How is everybody doing? How are you? You all right? I, uh, let me just, you know, let's, let's do some dates first. I'm going to be at Wise Guys in Salt Lake City tomorrow and Saturday. Four shows. Come down. I'll be at the Comedy Attic in Bloomington, Illinois. No, that's not where it is, dummy. Bloomington, Indiana.

That's better. August 30th, 31st, and September 1st. I'll be at ACME September 6th, 7th, and 8th, but that is sold out. I'll be at the Comedy Works in Denver September 21 and 22 for shows and stand-up live in Phoenix, Arizona October 13th.

Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all that info. Get the links to the tickities. Get the links to the tickies. That's what I'm trying to say. Today on the show show it's a very interesting show for me i talked to uh loser twersky he's an actor and former hasid uh as a jew uh i have been at different points in my life obsessively curious about the Hasidim. You know, for a lot of reasons.

Maybe I'll get into it a little more in a second. It was in the documentary, One of Us. You've seen him on the high maintenance on HBO. He's been on that. He's also in a French film called Felix and Mira. But, you know, we'll get to him in a minute so all right well yes it is true it is true people it is true ladies and gentlemen i have been added to the cast of the new joker movie being directed by todd phillips starring Joaquin Phoenix and Robert De Niro,

two of the greatest actors that have ever graced the screen. And I know some of you, given my recent discussions about the slow corruption of our culture and arts by the consolidation of desire around the limited options of big-budget blockbuster movies in the form of superhero movies are probably kind of, you know, thinking, well, look at this. They have Big Talker. Huh? Look at this guy That big talker. Huh?

Look at this guy. He's a hypocrite. He's this or that. I'll be honest with you. My agents trying to get me an audition for this film preceded my rants. I do not think that my opinions have changed at all. I have, in my life, as I've mentioned before, read plenty of comic books. But the bottom line is this.

I never thought that my life would take me to where I am now. I didn't assume anything when I started this podcast other than I hope I can stay alive. I don't know if I can make a living. I don't know what you do with these podcasts but i gotta stay engaged stay busy and try to uh you know remain uh on the on the on the right side of the grass uh so who would have known that some of my dreams would come true if they were dreams or some of my ambitions you know making my own tv show developing an audience as a comedian uh doing the best comedy i've ever done in my life having a career in show business period that the podcast itself would be successful so given all

that certainly one of my childhood dreams and i i don't like to use the word bucket list, but certainly something that I thought about in college, I thought about as long as I was a fan of films, was, God, if I was ever an actor, wouldn't it be amazing to be in a scene with Robert De Niro? Wouldn't it be amazing to act with Robert De Niro? Look at him there in Raging and taxi driver and the deer hunter and godfather 2 all those when i was in high school and later uh you know casino and and

goodfellas i mean look at robert de niro is the best it's the fucking best man how cool would it be to be in a movie with robert deiro? How long have I been thinking about that? Most of my life. So, given that the time that we live in does not put a lot of resources into films like The Deer Hunter, or even, I would say, Raging Bull, or certainly not Taxi Driver, but probably not even Goodfellas, really, at this juncture in history. So given that this is the timing, that this is where it's at, once given the opportunity that it was going to happen,

that I got this gig, and I'm going to do a couple of scenes, maybe, with Robert De Niro and Join phoenix the next in the the line the succession of great actors uh fuck yes i'm gonna do that of course i'm gonna do that this is the movie that it's gonna be in um and hopefully hopefully it'll make the cut and honestly it's a pretty great script so there you have it bucket list dream whatever whatever you may think of what i said i'm not backing off my assertions in any way the core argument of what i said but uh for those of you who got so offended by that and took it so personally and drew a line i hope you enjoy me in the joker

and if i don't make the cut karma's a bitch thank you for all you people that were congratulatory uh thank you for all you people who were uh snotty and thank you for all you people who who thought that it was somehow some giant conspiracy on my part, a ruse to either leverage a deal or to supply a punchline today. You give me too much credit, people. You give me too much credit, the three of you that did that. So what can I tell you about what you're about to take in uh loser twersky was a guy that uh used to show up i saw him years ago when i did geez man when did i when was that

i first met him when i was doing some sort of event at the new york tv festival for for the for the pilot of marin my show wow so that goes pretty far back that goes back to 2010 or something it was the it was the pilot we were bringing uh taking around to try to sell the show marin with ed asner. It was a weird little pilot presentation. And it was at the festival. And this guy shows up, this Hasidic Jew. Not Orthodox, Hasidic. He's a Hasidic.

He's got the payas, the curls on the side of his head. He's wearing the kippah. He's got the tzitzi, the talis on underneath the jacket. Full-blown Hasidic Jew. Young guy. Very manic, very intense, smoking smoking cigarettes was a fan of mine that's when I first met him and then um and then I think he I saw him at the bell house he came to a live WTF and I noticed that still Hasidic still uh with the payas still with the kippah but wearing a sort of slick suit, not the standard issue black. So that was sort of weird. I'm like, what's up with this guy? Still smoking a lot

and yammering on, very manic. And then I saw him again at, he came to my book signing at Barnes and Noble. Apparently I said, oh, you got a haircut because he was not in the garb and he was not with the payas so this guy extricated himself from the Hasidic community now I didn't know much about that other than you know my own sort of weird you know when I'm growing up when I was a kid you know Williamsburg Brooklyn you know we learned about sort of weird, you know, when I'm growing up, when I was a kid, you know, Williamsburg, Brooklyn, you know, we learned about it in Hebrew school. You knew it was there. You kind of wanted to go see them. It was like a, it was almost like a, some sort of like, um,

human zoo of, uh, for religious fanaticism, uh, which there are many around, uh, the country, but this one very specific, you know, it's kind of 1800s Poland looking. But the Hasidic are always in my mind when I was younger, like they're the real ones. They're the most committed Jews. They're the ones that are holding up the end for the sort of middle class, bougie, conservative Jews. These guys are doing the real, they're doing the real work. And I've written about this in Jerusalem Syndrome. I've performed bits about visiting the wall in Jerusalem, how they're there, you know, sort of keeping, you know, the channels open for all of us.

I don't know if any of that is true. I had some sort of romanticized idealistic or, you know, I always knew they were kind of odd. And I was always taken by the fact that they, even with the payas and everything else, if there's a generic sort of, if I have a sense of like, that guy looks Jewish, that guy doesn't look Jewish, outside of the getup, I thought a lot of these cats, they didn't look that Jewish.

And then I started to realize, well, maybe the gene pool is getting a little tight in the Hasidic communities, which is true. But I used to see them cruising around in their station wagons in New York, you know, looking for hookers down on 27th Street. Like, you know, you start to realize and you start to deal with some of them in different ways. You know, you start to get this different impression. There was some there was kind of like a Jewish hillbilly element to him. But but they were like a highly religious community. It's almost a theocratic community.

They are very limited in their exposure to the world. And they're just full on Jew all the time, very specifically, ritualistically. So this was a fascinating conversation for me. And a very difficult series of events for loser you know who you know who it's been a struggle and if you've seen the doc one of us you know you know a little bit about it but you know i really got you know i i did i kept him around a long time and i was happy to talk to him. And he is living in an RV here in Los Angeles.

He's committed to making it in show business. And it's nice that he's actually developing a show with Norman Lear's company now. And a friend of mine and friend of the show, Moshe Kasher, has been paired with him to run the show. I'm not sure what it's about, and I don't know that we talked about it because this was a while ago.

So as I mentioned, Loser, Loser, I think I'm pronouncing it right. But let me get, he's an actor. He's a Hasidic Jew, a Jack Hasidic Jew, as they say, like Jack Mormon. He's a former, he's a recovering Hasidic Jew, which is much different than a recovering Catholic. It's much different than recovering anything because generally you are not completely insulated from the modern world. And that's enforced by your community in order to be in the community. So, and as I said, he's developing a show at Norman Lear's company. This is a very interesting conversation with Loser Tours. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

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Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. You know, like I've been seeing you around for years and you've emailed me here and there. And then like I watched that, uh, the one of us yeah the documentary and i'm like oh there's that guy and then and then now i know about that guy and then uh you know i've seen you in a couple of shows yeah i watched your high maintenance episode yeah and then you were in transparent but you didn't play in orthodoxy no but in the in the high maintenance you played basically basically there's a companion piece to uh to the documentary yes because in the high maintenance you played, basically it was a companion piece to the documentary. Yes, because in the documentary you see me shooting the high maintenance episodes.

Oh, really? Yeah, that scene where they show me shooting something, I'm shooting high maintenance. Oh, really? Yeah. Ah. So let's go back then, because the documentary was pretty compelling. let's go back then because you know the documentary was pretty compelling i i thought i personally thought i don't know who made it but i personally thought that they weren't hard enough on uh on the on the elders yeah in the sense that you know it really focused on you guys and the the the

difficulty and insanity of trying to extricate yourselves from the Hasidic community, you know, which was pretty daunting and scary and weird and cult-like. But I do, I thought they really kind of, it feels like there's a whole other documentary in the abuse issue. Yeah, well, they didn't want to go too hard because they were trying to tell the story of these three people they weren't gonna right right and also but but they're the but the onus is on them the onus is on the elders yeah but nobody

nobody wanted to talk to them they tried nobody wanted to talk to them they only got this one guy yeah who is that guy so that guy is he's's not anybody in the community. He's just a guy. He looks good on camera. He's got a big, long, white beard. But he's not in the community? He's in the community, but he's not like anybody. He's just a dude. The one thing that I learned about it that I didn't really put together was that the community moved and maintained its traditional everything, you know, specifically, you know, as a reaction to Nazis, that they were going to, you know,

protect their way of life no matter what. And the idea of continuing to procreate at the level they procreate at was really, it's really agenda is on some level uh to to to guarantee the survival of that particular strain of judaism right yeah it's partially like i think the the having so many kids and like the the strictures that they that they added after the holocaust was partially response to that i mean i don't know i mean the funny thing is like I don't know much about like the history of like why they do things like people always

ask me oh why do they wear these hats I don't know that's just what they wear I used to do a joke about it oh about the hats

yeah so God could see them in crowds it was more of a yarmulke joke but well I mean those are those are traditional hats from Poland

yes but they get modernized. They change. The other thing is people think that it's monolithic and everybody looks the same, everybody wears the same. It's a little bit. There's slight differences. Of course, they update them every few years.

The two hat makers that make the hats. Yeah, they get taller. They get heavier. They get fancier. They get more expensive. Those fur hats, they're like five grand. And there must be like one or two companies that make them no there's not there's not more than them oh really yeah but now they make them in china oh really yeah where were they making them before

they make them by hand in brooklyn oh yeah now they make them in china oh no kidding so so let's get there's more casino there's a lot more casino there's like i think a quarter million now in new york really yeah all right so so when do you realize you're a Hasidim? I mean, how do you grow up? You grew up in Brooklyn? I grew up in Brooklyn, yes. Before Brooklyn became hipster, your parents were there in Williamsburg, right? In Borough Park.

Borough Park. Yeah. With the original community. Yes. Because when I was a kid, I'm 54, you're young, but there was this idea that you could go over there and look at the Jews. Yeah. Right?

Yeah, people still come and they're like, look at them. It's like, it's a tourist attraction. It's like, oh my God, you want to be in Brooklyn and also in the 16th century? Great. Is that far back, 16? Well, like 17th maybe, I don't know. And what was the name of the guy who founded the Hasidic movement? Oh, his name was the Baal Shem Tov.

Baal Shem Tov did it. Yeah. And then they started breaking off into smaller sects and like, you know, implementing their own changes. So the one I grew up in was called Belz.

And it's from Galicia, which doesn't exist anymore. And now it's like Ukraine or Poland, somewhere around there. And... So there's several communities of Hasid throughout

Eastern Europe. Yes. That broke off from the Baal Shem Tov one way or the other. Yes. I mean, they didn't like break off in a way like they went against them, but they just like, you know, went their own way. Right.

You know. They spread out. Yes, they spread out. Right. Yeah. So I grew up in Barapach. My dad is a Rebbe, a Hasidic leader. He is?

Yes. He's a Rabbi? Yeah. He's got his own. There's a difference. There's a Rebbe and there's a Rabbi. Oh, yeah? A Rabbi is the one who's a rabbi? Yeah. He's got his own. There's a difference. There's a rabbi and there's a rabbi. Oh, yeah? The rabbi is the one who does the laws.

Yeah. You ask him questions about Jewish law. And the rabbi is like a spiritual leader. The rabbi is the one that you ask questions about Jewish law. Oh, okay. So if you've got a problem- Like the legal authority. So you're going to go to the rabbi if your neighbor fucked your wife or if someone stole

a chicken or if somebody ripped you off yes or it's a rent issue yes you go solve it he's going to open up the talmud yeah and figure out a point of reference exactly and say this is how god wants you to handle this that's a rabbi yes okay and a rabbi is a spiritual leader uh-huh so which means what he's just a preacher oh he's he's the one who's supposed to have the direct connection to god he doesn't he doesn't have to consult the books he just asks god oh really so in some ways on a mystical level he's he's the one who's supposed to have the direct connection to God. He doesn't have to consult the books. He just asks God. Oh, really?

So in some ways, on a mystical level, he's more important than the rabbi. Exactly, yes. The rabbi's like the judge. Yeah. The rabbi is like the guy who keeps the hustle going. Basically, yes. Yes. And your dad was one of those.

Yes. Does he think of himself as a mystic I never asked him I mean I think probably deep inside he knows he's full of shit yeah I think so

I mean he's a person I mean it's not like I don't think he thinks he can speak he might think that he has because he's like you know he's a descendant of Rebbe's

because my whole family was Rebbe's that's how it works the Tversky Rebbe's the Tversky Rebbe's the Tversky family they'reant of Rebbe's because my whole family was Rebbe's. That's how it works. The Tversky Rebbe's? The Tversky Rebbe's. The Tversky family, they're all like Rebbe's. It's like a Kennedy of the Hasidim. Really?

Yeah. So let's talk about it. The thing that fascinated me about the documentary because I know so little and I am sort of fascinated but not educated because I choose not to do that. But you look at my books over there, I've got Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism,

I've got The Hasidic Tales, I've got Martin Buber. That Inner Space book is some insane, mystical Kabbalah book that someone gave me. But it's a little dense. I like The Hasidic Tales, and I like Martin Buber. It's good storytelling. It's really good storytelling they never end great a lot of them don't end great they just end with then who knows well they end with the goyim dying they they all end with the

the rabbi the rabbi made a created a miracle and and and the bad goyim died you know it's a it's great for us you know it's like when you're a child you know it reiterates you know that like oh we're the best you know we're the og you're the chosen you know even amongst the chosen we are like the og and you talk like you're supposed to you like have the act like you have the accent that people make fun of but it's real it's yes and it's not it's hard to figure out because it's not it's not because of hebrew it's because of yiddish yeah and also because i didn't speak english it's not because of Hebrew it's because of Yiddish because of Yiddish yeah

and also because I didn't speak English it's New York and Yiddish is what it is yeah basically it's a combination of like New York and Yiddish but also my mother is Israeli

so I have like a little bit of an Israeli accent I can hear that a little bit yeah oh really your father married an Israeli yeah so my father went to

went to Yeshiva went to study in Israel and that's where that's where he got introduced to my mother I mean they had like like all Hasidic dates. It was arranged and they met for like an hour or something

and they got married. They lived in Israel for a year and then my dad moved back to Brooklyn to take over his dad's synagogue. Now, was your grandfather alive when you were a kid? No, none of my grandparents were alive. My mom's parents, my mom's dad died when he was 44 suddenly and then his wife, my grandmother died a couple of

months later in a car accident wow yeah so she lost both her parents when she was what about your dad's parents was he was your dad's father the rebbe in brooklyn in borough park yeah same house that my father lives now same same synagogue same house so how many synagogues are there in borough park oh god there's like on my block alone there's five really and they all have different rebbes they all have different rebbes but is it but are they still do the communities interact the different congregations so it depends there's some there's a lot of infighting so like but like there's there's the fame there are the famous on the chabad right the labab which the ones that stand on the street it's like excuse me are you jewish are you jewish come do a villain exactly

right here right here in the bathroom we gotta the street. They always, when they stop me, are you Jewish? Like, no. How do they not know? The payas? They don't give it away? Even when I had payas and beard, you know, I would go by and it's like, you're not going to ask me? Yeah.

They don't want to ask you. They're afraid. Yeah. Well, they're afraid because you might. Well, also they assume that I already put on film. They assume I already did it. That's right. That guy already did it.

Yeah. He's good. You know. But there was the rift with Chabad. Why? Because they didn't like the missionary element? No. So Chabad and Satmar.

Satmar is like the biggest, like really extreme Hasidic sect. Like they're the most famous. Which ones? Satmar. They're the anti-Zionist. They're the ones who are like. We live in Palestine. The wall is in Palestine.

Israel's not a state. Yeah. Like when you sign like the books that they print, it doesn't say printed in Israel. It says printed in E-Israel, which is the Hebrew word for Eretz Yisrael. So it's like it's Eretz Yisrael. It's not Israel. Israel, the state of Israel is something else.

Are there a lot of those guys? Oh, yeah. They're huge. They're the ones, they're based in Williamsburg. They're the ones that people, when they think of Hasidic Jews, like outside of Chabad, they're thinking about Satmar because they're the biggest,

the most visible, the most politically connected, yeah, the most active. The thing, oh, what I was going to say is the thing that fascinated me about the documentary was that kid,

you know, the one who just like, basically didn't know how to read or function. Yeah, neither did I. Because it's so insulated? Yeah, because they don't teach you any, they teach you like very, very basic English. There's an hour of English Basically didn't know how to read or function. Neither did I. Because it's so insulated? Yeah. Because they don't teach you any, they teach you like very, very basic English.

There's an hour of English every day, like four days a week. All right. So you, okay. So when do you start? You have payas when you're a little kid, right? Because I see the payas kids. Yeah. And that's part of the rule book?

Yes. When you're three years old, you get payas. Okay. And then what's next? And then there's bar mitzvah. So 10 years, you just walk around with payas and the then what's next and then there's bar mitzvah oh 10 years you just walk around with payas and the and the talus vest without being ordained or no you were like regular colorful clothes yeah but you were tzitzit you know the fringe that's what i mean underneath it

usually yeah and then when you're bar mitzvah you start wearing the tzitzit outside and that's when you that's when you switch to black and white now bar mitzvah uh in the chassidic community must be like a it's a big deal in middle class conservative judaism for different reasons you don't really acknowledge you know okay i'm a man now whatever that means right i get presents we have a party maybe there's a theme you know you get to buy a suit yeah you know what i mean but for for you it must have been no it means that basically from now on it means you have to fast on all the fast days. You have to keep all the rules. It's like you have to fast on Yom Kippur.

You have to fast on Tisha B'Av. Like, you know, you got to do all the rules. You're basically an adult. And you start putting on tefillin when you're... Every day? Every day, yeah. Every day is tefillin. Every day is tefillin.

I don't even have tefillin. Well... I just found my talus. I mean, I had it. It was here. I'm cleaning things out. But I have a nice talus. But I don't have tefillin. I don't have mine either. I don't know where.... It was here. I'm cleaning things out, but I have a nice talus. But I don't have to fill in.

I don't have mine either. I don't know where. I do have them. I think I know where they are. I still have most of my stuff. Yeah. Because I use them for like, you know, films and stuff, you know. Are you a little typecast?

Yeah. You know what? At least I'm working. I mean, I would love for it to do other. I would love to do other things. But, you know, this is the most of the work I get is that. All right. So you bar mitzvah at 13 and then what's expected of you

given that you come from a family of of of rebbe's yeah are you expected to be the rebbe is that because i have like four other brothers older all i have uh two older ones and two younger ones how do they designate which one usually the oldest one yeah but there's always a fight that's why like right now there's two satmars there. Yeah. But there's always a fight. There's always a fight. That's why like, right now there's two Satmars, there's two Babavs, there's like every sect that came with one Rebbe

from the Holocaust. Yeah. You know, and they had a bunch of kids and now the kids are splitting up. Yeah. There's like two visions, there's like two of everything now.

Is that why there's so many synagogues? Partially, yeah. But also like, for example, like you'd say like, when you say like, I'm part of Babav, to say which Babav?

45 or 48? Really? 45th Street or 48th Street, yes. Oh, so everyone knows. Yeah, everyone knows. Like, like, you'd say, like, when you say, like, I'm part of Bubba, to say, which Bubba? 45 or 48? Really? 45th Street or 48th Street, yes. Oh, so everyone knows. Yeah, everyone knows. Like, Satmar, are you Satmar Williamsburg or Satmar Curious Joe? In terms of being part of whichever congregation, is that just the community has to decide? It breaks up the community?

Who are they going to go with? Or is it they prefer the guys? Like, because people in conservative Judaism, a lot of times they change temples just because they don't like the rabbi. Is that the way

it works there? Well, I mean, it is a personal choice. I mean, people decide which rabbi they like and that's the one they go with. But then is there

friction between the two? Oh, yeah. When Satmar was splitting up, there was violence. Oh, there was fires, there was stonings, there were burning up cars, there were, yeah,

there was a lot of violence. Same with Babov, too. To what end? To keep it one community? No, but basically to kick out, like if Sotmar and Williamsburg, they would want to institute some new policy, and the guys who are splitting off wouldn't like it,

a fight would break out. Wow. Or if one of his people would show up. They're burning cars? Oh, yeah. So then how does the rabbi handle that? That's a lot of sit-downs with the rabbi, I would imagine. Is there still just one rabbi for all these communities?

No. So the rabbis, the ones like the judges, they also split. So some of the rabbis go with one rabbi, and some of them go with the other rabbi. It's real politics. It's real politics. Yeah. It's like if you go to like a Hasidic synagogue which also the other thing you have to send people think that that they don't socialize yeah they do socialize they don't have bars they don't go to

bars they socialize in the synagogue because you pray three times a day it seems like there's a lot of singing in the socializing and a lot of uh arguments yeah a lot of yes yes a lot of arguments so like i don't know if you know about them you know about the mikveh? Yeah, the bath? The bath, but the men go to the bath every day. Yeah, oh really? Yes, every day before morning prayers, you go to the bath. And you go in there and it's like,

probably thousands of people go through it every day. It's like a schwitz or just a bath? It's like, there's showers, some of them have a schwitz, but there's the big pool that you go in and you immerse yourself in. So a lot of people, they just go there and they just sit like it's a hot tub and they're just like arguing about Satmar this, Satmar that.

They're arguing politics. Just dozens of men. Just dozens of completely naked. Completely naked bearded men arguing. Yeah, and there's always this one guy who like dries his groin. Like he puts one foot up on the bench. Right.

Like there's always this one guy. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then there's the one like really, really religious guy who like, who doesn't want to look anywhere.

He just, he keeps his towel on up, right up to the bath. And then he just jumps in and jumps out and splashes everyone because he doesn't want to see anything. And he's just, he's just immersing.

Yeah. He's doing that thing. What is the immersing? Is that a, what's the, what's the ritual mean? It's just cleansing yourself basically., he's doing that thing. What is the immersing? What's the ritual mean? It's just cleansing yourself, basically. But is there showers involved in the casino?

Well, there's showers. So here's the... Because I don't want to be weird and generalized, but I've been around some smelly chassids. No, a lot of them, like they believe... Because life is about spirituality. Life is not about the body. Or cleaning your suit.

Well, the body is just a vessel, you know? So it's not important. Right. But that means that there's a lot of enjoyment. So you don't have to worry about what you eat

as long as it's kosher. Basically. I imagine doctors in the Hasidic community have to be bringing their hands all the time. Oh, yeah. Well, they don't have

their own doctors because they didn't go to college. But, yeah. Oh, see. So that must be the one thing they don't have. They don't have doctors. They have very they don't have they have very very few lawyers really yeah so like there's no yeshiva or jewish university for khasids that's the thing like people people

think of jews and they're like oh they're the educated ones hasidic jews get zero education there's no college there's there's there's no high school i have no high school diploma i couldn't read or write when i was late 18 really yeah i barely spoke english how is that legal it's not but they get away with it why political power there's actually an organization in brooklyn called yafed they would and they're fighting against the suing suing the state of New York to enforce the laws. They have to sue the state to enforce its own laws in the schools. What, because they just don't want to do it because it's insulated? Because they pay their rent because they have their property owners?

I mean, I don't know how they get away with that. Because they have a voting block. They're a voting block. They vote as a block. Oh, okay. So if the Rebbe says, like, everybody votes for de Blasio. All of them, no matter what the infighting is? That's something that transcends the infighting.

We can fight amongst themselves, but when it comes to what's good for the Hasidim. Basically. Then we vote for that guy. The guy has to be socially conservative and fiscally liberal. Uh-huh. So give us all the government programs you can, but don't let the gays get married. Right. Basically.

So you're telling me the Chassids it's like the opposite of what everybody thinks about the Jews they're living off the welfare system yeah and they're just

well not all of them obviously no I know but they're not like because they're not all diamond merchants and selling cameras

no not anymore I used to work at B&H actually did you yeah I have a good picture like me in the B&H fest with the payouts and everything. B&H for the audio equipment.

Yeah, yeah. It's huge. It's a massive company. Is it still there? Yeah, it's still there. It does billions of dollars a year in business. Yeah, they sell all the mixers and things. I still get the catalog.

I used to work there, and I used to have filmmakers come in. I had no idea who they were. I remember I had this like one modern, like more modern Orthodox Jew next to me. And he was like, you know who that was? That was Harrison Ford. I'm like, who's that? Yeah.

Oh my God. Come on. What movies are you watching? Well, I wasn't watching anything at the time. They didn't let you watch movies? No, there's no movies. There's no TV. There's no newspapers. There's no radio.

All right. So, okay. So you get bar mitzvah. Now who, now which one of your brothers is going to be Rebbe? We don't know. They're going to fight it out. How do you fight it out? I don't know.

I know whose side I'm on. Really? You picked a brother? I have a favorite brother. Yeah. You know? But, oh, so it has to be, it's within the family? It's within the family, yeah.

That your dad's going to make the call? It's probably going to be in his will, yeah. Oh, that's how it works. So they don't even know. So they're both kissing your father's ass one way or the other? Basically, yeah. They're all grabbing real estate. You mean mental real estate?

No, like actual real estate. Really? Yeah. So my father, he makes a living from the synagogue, obviously from donations. But he also has a few buildings that helps. I mean he's got 12 kids you know there's 12 of you yeah how many girls and boys seven sisters you have seven sisters seven sisters four brothers they're all and you're the only one that's you're the only renegade yep do you talk to any of them some of them yeah there's some of them who like just completely ignore my sister got married a

couple of uh weeks ago and i went to the wedding and some of them just like pretended i wasn't there they just completely ignored me really yeah and it's actually interesting because like um i don't know if i told you this but when you did that episode with your father i think the 500th episode yeah i was driving and i i i it touched me so much i had to pull over and cry and i hadn't spoken to my parents at that point, like, for probably seven, eight years. And I decided at that moment that I'm going to try and make it right. I'm going to try to reach out to my dad and see. And we actually did reconcile.

And then one of us came out, and he stopped talking to me again. Oh, really? Yeah. So just recently. Well, he didn't see it, obviously. Yeah. You know, he hasn't seen a movie. Did you throw him under the bus?

No. No. No, I never. He's a good guy. Yeah. You know, he hasn't seen a movie. Did you throw him under the bus? No. No. No, I never, he's a good guy. Yeah. You know, I just wish that, you know, I understand where he's coming from. Yeah. Because I grew up in it, and I just wish he understood where I'm coming from, which he might never. But it's intentional.

I mean, they're surrounded by modernity, and I have to assume that they have cell phones. You know, so, I mean, they do make- Filtered cell phones. Really? Like China? Yeah, well, the best way to understand what's going on in Borough Park and Williamsburg is think of it as North Korea. Right. Everything is censored.

There's no outside influence. That's why they don't teach you English. Because if you can read and write English, then you might read a book. And then you might find out that, you know, there's a world out there. So, like, when I was a kid and I would, you know, I'd never seen a movie. then you might find out that there's a world out there. So when I was a kid and I'd never seen a movie, I'd walk on the street. But it's fucking nuts.

You're in New York. You're walking around. Yes. I would walk down the street and I would see, let's say maybe 10 years ago, if I would walk down the street and see a billboard

for like Mission Impossible. It would say, Mission Impossible, March 4th. I would have no idea what that means. I would have no idea what that's about. To me,

it's a guy with a gun and from what i would um see i would look at that and was there okay i get it goyim i have guns goyim are murders yeah i don't know it's a movie i don't know what i don't know anything what what is the the day-to-day i mean like wait like like who what are the because like it was always my assumption that that in the community i see it's surprising to me that they don't have doctors, they don't have lawyers. Well, you know, theoretically, they don't need lawyers for most of what the community needs to deal with. They go to the rabbi, right? Yeah.

And in terms of like, you know, so, and everybody is employed. You have bakers, you have, you know, electricians, tailors, electricians, all that stuff. But where do they get trained? Do they get trained in Hasidic training? No, now you have Hasidic computer programmers. They're just, you know, they're good improvisers. They're good survivors. They've learned how to survive.

So my brother is a computer programmer. I mean, he actually works at B&H. And he is really, really good. He's self-taught. He still works at B&H? Yeah, he's self-taught. But you have 12 of you, and you're all living in the same house? No, no, no, no. Most of them are married now. Right, and you're all living in the same house no no no no

they're all most of them are married now right but i mean back in the day yeah was there ever a time where you were all 12 there or no there was no i went off i went off to yeshiva in england uh when i was like 14 okay so you're 14 so you're the son of a big rebbe and you know you get to choose the yeshiva thing there must be some class uh uh distinction yeah so if you're like if your father is like a big rebbe yeah your father like a big Rebbe, he has his own yeshiva. And then you go to your father's yeshiva. But my father's not that big. Oh, really? So I had to go to another yeshiva.

He's a minor Rebbe? He's a minor Rebbe, yeah. Yeah, he's like a B-list Rebbe. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And why England? Because I got kicked out of every school I went to. How do you get kicked out of school if they're just teaching Yiddish and Jewish stuff?

But you can still make trouble. You can still not learn, even like Torah. If you don't like classrooms, which I don't, it doesn't matter what it is. So you're making trouble. I'm making trouble, yeah. Like what? Well, there was one time where I was... So you have the classrooms

and then after they teach you the class so after you get bar mitzvah this is the thing after you get bar mitzvah you go to yeshiva before that you go to a cheder which is like an elementary school

you go to yeshiva and you're there every day from 6am to like 10pm yeah all day you study all day and the way it works

Torah Torah yes when do you learn Yiddish Yiddish is just a spoken language that's why you speak in the house. Yes. Yeah, you don't study it. You just speak it.

That's fascinating. So everybody's still speaking Yiddish? Yes. Yeah. Aren't there a couple of different strands of Yiddish? There is, yeah. So there's like the... Russian, German, Polish Yiddish.

Like the Israeli Yiddish sounds a little different. You know, it has like the R is like a R. Yeah. And the Brooklyn Yiddish, the R is more like a rolling R, like a more like a like a rolling r like yeah yeah but but it's all understandable it's all understandable yeah yeah uh all right so okay so you go to you see it's 6 a.m to 10 p.m yes all day long you study all day long and uh so you go to class and after class everybody goes into the big sanctuary where they study together yeah and uh i you know you know, when class was done, for example, I took a couple of chairs, I laid down, and I wanted to take a nap.

Yeah. And people kept coming in and turning the lights on. Yeah. So I took off- Other kids? Yeah, other kids. Yeah. So I took off the cover from the light switch, and I stuck my key in there and popped the

fuse and- How was that? And shut down electricity for the whole building. Yeah. So you could take a nap. So I could take a nap. Yeah. So you could take a nap. So I could take a nap. Yeah, so you're already a problem. I'm a problem.

Independent thinker. Yes. But it strikes me now, even now, sitting with you and your disposition and the fact that you're still sort of, you got payers for roles or whatever you got, but you still got it. I don't get the feeling that you don't believe in God.

I don't. I don't. Mm-hmm. How can I? I mean, like, there's like, it doesn't make sense to me. All right, but when you're a kid, how, like, is it just taken for granted? Because, like, you know, the Jewish God is, given the books, is a fairly complex entity. Not to us.

Not to Hasidim. Well, I know, but I mean, you've got to know the books. You're studying all day long. I mean, you know, with Christians, give or take, it's just sort of like, you take Jesus into your heart and you're done. Right. You're done. You go live your life and go to church on Sunday and try to be a good person. And that's that. I mean, it just seems like, you know, unless you get deep into Catholicism,

that, you know, that the issues, that the religions like Islam and Judaism at the level that you were practicing in is fairly complicated, very demanding, and all-consuming. Yeah, but that's the difference between Hasidic Jews and all the other Jews. Hasidic Jews do not study any like theology or philosophy. We don't ask those kind of questions. We don't go into that. We just study the laws.

We just study like the laws and the spirituality of it, like the feelings of it. So all the other stuff, all the theological stuff, the philosophical stuff is taken for granted. That's like set in stone. There is a God and he gave us the Torah and then he gave us the Baal Shem Tov and that's the way it is.

And like that part does never get, we don't even study like the whole Bible. We only study the first five books. Hasidim don't even study the rest of the Bible. That's the crazy thing about Hasidim. They took like these spiritual ideas and turned them into dogma. That's what they did.

That's I think one of their biggest problems is like that. That's what they did. That's, I think, one of their biggest problems. Is like that a lot of what they do and what they say has no basis in Jewish law. In terms of like, you know, new people coming in outside of just people who are born into it. Is that something you see often? No, very rare. Right. It's very rare. Yeah.

Unless they marry into it? They wouldn't marry into it. I don't know. Some people are fanatics of all kinds. Yeah, you know, like... I know you're not an expert, but it's not something you saw. It was just a... It's very rare.

It's very rare. What about inbreeding? Inbreeding? Well, I'm going to try to make this as uncomplicated as I can, but it's going to be hard. So, my mother. My mother's parents are first cousins. Right. Okay? be hard so my mother uh my mother's my mother's parents are first cousins right okay and then my mother has uh now she has a i think 12 siblings left a lot of them died but my mother's youngest brother married his oldest brother's daughter so like in my mother's family it is a ton of

inbreeding like cousins and first cousins and nieces and nephews and uncles. They're all in marriage. And there's an old joke they say. They're like, well, if he's a good boy, why give him away to another family? And if he's not a good boy,

why should another family find out about it? So either way, just keep him in the family. Uh-huh. You know? So that's the way it goes. Yeah.

But it's not every family. So, but, and they do, they do like genetic tests. So like when you're like when you turn 16 or 17, there's like a nurse that comes

to yeshiva and takes everyone's blood and gets it he gets a barcode everybody gets a barcode yeah and it goes into a database and then when they start doing arranged marriages the shot the matchmaker yeah call up and say i have number five four three three three and number blah blah blah blah blah, blah, blah. Are they a genetic match? Can they marry? Are they going to have Down syndrome kids or whatever? So that's how they do it. That's how they do it.

So you don't look at the family tree anymore. No. You just look at the crapshoot of genetics. Basically, yeah. So they're only concerned with certain genetic matching. They know that this plus this equals this. Yeah, they don't want sick kids. So they're basically saying, you can be family as long as we don't get this. Right. Yeah. They don't want like, you know, sick kids. So they're basically saying, you can be family as long as we don't get them.

Exactly. As long as it doesn't, you know, as long as you have healthy kids, why not? But it's weird because this would sound crazy. But like I used to think that, like I'd see a lot of Hasidim. I'd say, you know, if you shave this stuff off, he doesn't look Jewish. Yeah. They're like redheads and like blondes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was a blonde boy. When I was a boy, I was blonde. My mom was blonde. Yeah. And I have blue eyes. I mean, I don't look Jewish. When I like clean up and I shave and everything, people think I'm Irish.

So, all right. So, you know, once you start having these rebellions, you're still going along with it. You still believe in God as a kid. Yeah. Well, I'm figuring it out. I'm questioning it. I'm making a lot of trouble.

But what did you do in England? That must have been different. So you grow up in fucking Brooklyn, then you go to England. It feels the same to you? Like the communities as insulated? So I got sent to a boarding school. A boarding yeshiva. Yeah, a boarding yeshiva in England.

So it's an hour north of London in a little town called Hitchin. Actually, it's not in Hitchin. It's like outside of a little town called Hitchin. It's in the middle of nowhere. You're surrounded by fields. Yeah. And you never leave the premises. And it's just all payas.

All payas, all boys. Yep, all boys. Same thing, 6 to 10 at night. Yep, all day for like six months. But what are you, just reading Torah? Reading Torah, you're praying on Sabbath, you know, you're dancing, you know, you're singing, you're eating, smoking, a lot of smoking. Yeah, they don't mind smoking. Well, that particularly, Shiva didn't mind smoking.

No, but I mean, even like in New York, I used to see these fucking castas in their station wagons cruising for hookers. Oh, yeah. Like all the time. Yeah. costas in their station wagons cruising for hookers oh yeah all like all the time yeah but is that is that another thing that the community is like okay with because i heard about like a lot of these orthodox women these chasidic women they got genetic they got venereal diseases yeah they get them from the hookers from their husbands yeah well they look the other way the community looks the other way why especially if you're like a rich guy like someone important and like yeah you know

he gives a lot of money to the shul he gives a lot of money to the schools you know like so he does that that's between him and God oh really yeah certain things are between him and God but apparently

some other thing is like oh no we got to take care of it ourselves interesting so they just decide within the community yeah people look

the other way so you spend you're in England for how many years yeah so I basically I get bar mitzvah. I spend a year in yeshiva in Brooklyn. I get kicked out.

I spend another year in a yeshiva in upstate New York. I get kicked out again. And then nobody wanted to take me anymore. They're like, this is a problem, kid. We don't want to deal with him. So do you have to go sit with the rabbi to discuss this? No, it was because my father is a rabbi. So he gets to do whatever he wants.

And what was he doing? Was he just being a father? Oh, he was going insane. He was losing his mind. He didn't know what to do with me. Yeah. Yeah, he never knew what to do. He was always kind of lost.

I was that one kid that he just had no idea what I wanted and what my deal was. But were there other kids like you that you connected with, I mean, at least? Did you find any other peers who were troubled kids in this way no community no because the troubled kids were like into stuff that i wasn't into i was i to me i i i still i still i mean i'm 32 so i'm still trying to figure out my childhood and what it all meant i just didn't fit in i just didn't like any of it what are the other troubled casita kids doing oh they go out at night like not by clubbing but they they get into trouble they drive they they they sometimes smoke weed yeah yeah they do like they get into like regular regular kid trouble yeah and my kind of trouble was just like bizarre it was just like bizarre behavior it's like

like who shuts down the electricity they want to take a nap yeah and how did you get kicked out of the one in upstate um oh it was purim like the jewish yeah and I'm I'm in the middle of prayers and I think I started doing like like stupid tricks in the middle of prayers like what do you call these

these these cans that spray like string oh yeah right yeah like in the middle of prayers silly string yeah silly string

I did that it was just like right I did things for attention I always I mean were you the youngest no I'm number four oh so I always, I mean. Are you the youngest? No, I'm number four. Oh.

As long as they gave me like, out of 12, yeah. As long as they gave me a stage and they let me sing and they let me, you know, lead the prayers, I was happy. If I wasn't getting attention, you know, all hell broke loose. So that's right. So you were a class clown and you needed attention. Yeah. needed attention yeah yeah for some reason your brain like you know i guess that the the idea is that you you set the dogma in place in such a a strong way that the kid does not have the the traditional yearnings for sort of parental attention nurturing that kind of stuff so you

like the the the religion in the community was supposed to fill that void. And it didn't fill it for you. And also, like, my... It didn't let my brain expand beyond the borders of... You had desire. I had desire. Like, I did so much to do it. I had curiosity.

Yeah, once you realized that every billboard for a movie is not just about goys with guns. Exactly. You were like, there's something else going on across the street. Yeah. Yeah, so there's, like, all's something else going on across the street. Yeah.

Yeah, so there's like old, I mean, I remember when I was a kid, we had, there was one goy on our block lived right next door to us. Yeah. And at the top of the stairs of the second floor of our house, I could look into their house,

into their bedroom. They're watching TV? And they were seeing, and I couldn't see because I got glasses late in life. Well, you couldn't read, you couldn't speak, you couldn't see?

Yeah, I couldn't see because my parents thought I was lying when I said I couldn't see. They didn't take me to the eye doctor. So I could just see the flickering TV. I couldn't see what was on it. And I would just stand by that window for hours and just like wonder what is happening in that house. Yeah.

So to me, it was always just I have intense curiosity. Yeah. I would take things apart like toys just like to see how it works. Right. I wouldn't put them back together. I wouldn't figure out how it works but i took it apart right so yeah okay so you had this this drive that was not you know you're not spiritually satisfied and you were not uh materialistically satisfied you weren't emotionally satisfied yeah so so after england do you graduate from yeshiva? You don't graduate, you get married.

Oh, really? Yeah, that's your graduation. Your wedding is your graduation. So yeah, so they sent me off to this boarding school where you're there for six months out of the year and then you go home for Passover or the holidays. And so over there, I kind of found my place because I was away from my parents

and I was able to relax. And I actually became a pretty good boy. I studied, you know, and that's when I developed my performance, you know, skills. What did you do? I would sing. I would, you know, just lead the prayers, lead the Sabbath meals, you know. And yeah, I became a little bit of a macher. And yeah, and then I got married.

So you got arranged married. I had an arranged marriage, yeah. They did the a little bit of a macher. And yeah, and then I got married. So you got arranged married? I had an arranged marriage, yeah. They did the gene testing? They did gene testing, yeah. They had barcodes. They had barcodes from past? Yeah, we matched up. And you didn't know her?

No. No, I didn't know her at all. Was she from Brooklyn? No, she was from Muncie. She was from upstate New York, Rocking County. And how did that deal go down? What's the deal between the dads and the Hasidic community?

What's the dowry situation? So the way it works is there's a matchmaker. They go to like the, I think they go to the girl's parents first and they say, well, there's this boy,

Luzatworski, you know. A little bit of a problem. Yeah, well, they didn't say that, you know. And like it's, you know, his dad is the F of chana reby

you know so they start doing some research and i say okay we're interested and then he goes to my parents says well we have you know i don't want to say her name but uh them and uh and are you interested and so and when both say yes both families yeah both of them say yes fathers or mothers fathers and yeah mothers yeah both and, yeah, mothers, both. And they started doing research. They started calling the schools. They started calling her job. Were they doing the same thing with you?

Yeah. And they still signed off on it? And they still signed off on it. Apparently, they weren't sure. And then what you have then is you have a meeting. So my mom goes to meet the woman, and her dad comes to meet me, and we sit down for a couple of hours what did he do he was

he ran an embroidery business for Talas yeah for like Talas and like you know all the ornaments for the shul for the synagogue

he does that so I meet her and it didn't go that well it was like an hour where did you meet her at her sister's house and she's got the wig on

and everything no no no she doesn't have a wig on no wig we only put it on after you get married oh right she has a ponytail you know she's pretty And she's got the wig on and everything? No, no, no. She doesn't have a wig on. No wig. You only put it on after you get married. Oh, right. Okay.

She has a ponytail. You know, she's pretty and she's very shy and very quiet. Yeah. And, you know, I am not that. Yeah, but that can work.

Sometimes, but it didn't work. There was just no conversation happening and I go back to my dad and I'm like, yeah, I don't know. And that's also like unusual. Usually don't say no.

Really? Yeah. Usually just say yes because like yeah you have to give a reason why you say no and like what could be a reason you haven't slept with her you barely spoke to her and like how do you know what you want you don't know what you want so how are you gonna say no but in their minds all they want are kids they don't give a fuck right whether you get along or not is not the issue no because women are primarily i guess silenced initially but i have to assume that at some point you know like any other relationship you know once you know everyone is surrendered to the situation if no one's fighting i have to assume that some marriages within the casita community are fairly dramatic yeah but they but, but they always say like, oh, look at us, our marriages work

because there's less divorce. Well, there's less divorce because people have no choice. Yeah. By the time you realize that you've fallen in with someone, you know, you got five kids. What are you going to do now? Walk away? But it's that...

They're stuck. They're not happy. They're stuck. No, of course. I get that. I get that. But there must be bitterness and fighting and domestic abuse

probably i mean my parents i mean they they didn't talk much they're both living their own lives i mean my mother's raising 12 children my dad is you know running a synagogue so you you you marry this girl even your father says fuck you i do end up marrying her i said i said that at first i said no and uh and then a couple of weeks passed and and my rabbi, so like actually the dean of my yeshiva, who I was very, very close to, it's literally the only guy who I have any nice things to say about from that community. He was a really, really nice guy. I really loved him. Not a rabbi, a rabbi.

Yeah, he was a rabbi. He was the head of the yeshiva. Okay. A wise man. A very wise man. Like a super, like probably one of the nicest people I've ever met in my life. Why did you like him? Why did he resonate with you?

Because he actually cared. And did he understand your dilemma? Yes. Yeah, he did. When I said, you know, I don't think I believe in God, he's like, oh, don't worry. You know, it's a teenage thing. You'll get over it. You know, but he said it with such heart.

You know, I felt like it really meant it. And this is the kind of guy who would like leave his house in the morning from London with like a bag of lunch from his wife. And then he would see a homeless guy on the street. He would pull over and go out there and sit on the curb with him and show him all to see. This is the chicken.

Here's the potatoes. And would just give him the silverware and everything. And just, he was, I mean, he would go to his arch enemy like to borrow money for like some other sick person. He was a completely selfless person like this wonderful guy so he found out that i had that i had what they call it's called a besho like when you first meet your um uh the woman it's called a besho that meaning is called

a besho so he found that i had a besho and i said no he calls me up he was very sick at the time he had cancer and he says that the listen loser they don't know your history yet. You know? Yeah. You got to say yes because the older you're going to get, I was 18. He's like, the older you're going to get, people are going to start wondering why you're not married yet. And then they're going to start digging in. They're going to find out all your history before you came to my yeshiva. And then you're never going to be able to get married. This woman wants to marry you.

Just marry her. It's going to be great. I said, yeah, but I don't like the way she looks. And I'm like, he's like, oh, what what the forget about pretty pretty is for pictures it's for pictures you know so he convinced me he said why don't you meet with her again and if it doesn't go well you can say no so i went to my dad and i said you know i'm that's that's what the rosh hashiva said that's what the rabbi said and uh and uh i'm go meet her. And my dad says, no, no, no. If you meet her again, it's a yes.

So I called back my rabbi and I said, listen, this is my father. He said, if your father says that, go meet with her and if he doesn't like it,

I'll pay for the wedding. What does that mean? Do it without your parents. Get married without your parents because I think you should meet with her again and you should decide. Yeah.

So that's another thing. Did you tell your dad that? Yeah. And that's when they said, okay, you know what? Okay, we're going to meet her again. And I met her again and we actually, you know, it was thing did you tell your dad that yeah and that's when they said okay you know what okay we're gonna meet her again and i met her again and we actually you know it was okay it was like half an hour yeah you know it was a good conversation is everyone sitting around do you guys they're in the other room or what so we have our own room they leave the door open so nothing you know can happen uh-huh they can watch over us yeah it's crazy and and uh i walked out of the room and I said, let's do it.

And that's it. Like six months later, I was married. Uh-huh. Yeah. But you didn't talk to her in that six months? No, not at all. She just came down for the wedding? Yep.

Yeah? Yeah, and I just met her at the wedding. And you break the glass and you dance on the chairs? Break the glass and then we go into our private room. And then we go into our private room where we sit for like, I think, 12 minutes is like the legal, the Jewish legal time that it takes to, what's the word, copulate? You go into a room right after the wedding? No, no, no, you don't do it, but you have to be there long enough to be able to do it. Oh, do some people do it? No, I don't think so.

Not anymore? I don't know. Or what, was it? I don't think anyone does it at the wedding. Okay, so you do the 12 minutes, right? Yeah. And then what? And then we go party. Okay, so you do the 12 minutes, right? Yeah. And then what? And then we go party.

Okay. Yeah. Well, you drink wine, dance. Drink wine, dance. Get on the chairs. Get on the chairs. They walk you around. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone's happy. Everyone's happy. I'm happy. You are. Well, because I'm thinking like this is like this horrible childhood is finally over. Now I'm on my own. Now I can fix it.

Now I can fix it. But that's interesting because like, you know, you did get yourself to the point, like, as I did even, you know, when I married my first wife who was Jewish and, you know, we went through that whole thing. That, like, all right, well, one of the reasons I did it was because it was familiar and it was, you know, it was expected and it seemed okay. And, but, you know, if you still have those things in your mind or in your heart, it's never going to be okay. So now you're happy and you get your own place in one of your dad's buildings or what? No, no, no. So we ended up living in Muncie.

So my father doesn't have anything over there. In upstate New York? Muncie, upstate New York, yeah. So we get a little apartment there. And that's when I first started. Now I have autonomy. Because before that, I was in yeshiva all the time, or my parents' house.

I had no autonomy. I was able to go out. Go out where? Anywhere. I wasn't able to leave like I was on the watch. But could you read and stuff at this point?

I could read a little bit. My English was a little bit better because I spent some time in England, and the Hasidic kids from England speak a little bit better English, and so that's when I got a car for the first time. Yeah. And I started, you know, talking to people.

One of the first places I went was Starbucks. Yeah. Like I was just looking for places to interact with like. But you're full on hat and black and white. Oh, yeah. Full on, yeah. Yeah. And I started talking to people.

I know my English got better. And I started listening to this rabbi who like gives lectures in english just to improve my english rabbi no like it wasn't hasidic it was like uh like litvish like a lithuanian rabbi he's very famous uh rabbi miller he gave lectures in english and uh and uh in one lecture he mentions something about like how the goyim are so stupid they believe in evolution they believe that everything just made itself. And I'm like, wait, wait, people, what is that? What is that again?

Right. And so I started researching it. So it's like- Because you're free to research. You got internet now. Well, I don't have internet yet. So like everything- You don't have internet yet.

No, there's a process. So like first I get the car and then I get like a DVD player. And in the beginning, I would watch anything. I would go to Blockbuster. I would sneak into Blockbuster. I would go to one like Ramsey I would watch anything I would go to Blockbuster I would sneak into Blockbuster I would go to one like Ramsey, New Jersey I would go like

far away from Muncie and I would make sure there's no other minivans outside make sure like no one is there's no other sneakers around and I would I would literally

if it was rated R I would rent it also here's the other thing where were you watching them? in my car yeah I had a DVD

I had a whole like hookup where it like plugs into the cigarette lighter and the thing is like that I didn't even know you could rent movies yeah

I would go to Blockbuster and buy every movie I wanted to see and at one point I had so many movies in the trunk of my car that I could not because I would hide them

with a spare tire I could no longer close it so I went to a truck stop you know and I bought like this DVD sleeves and I threw all the covers out and I just had the dvd

i still have a lot of those who are you hiding it from your wife my wife yeah yeah and once you move in with them are you talking more with her do you well we never really connected we never fought we've been married for three years we never fought never had a single fight but we barely you know we barely communicated she was like doing her own thing and i was doing what was she doing uh she worked as like a home health aide. And were you having children? Yeah, we had a kid nine months after we got married. We had our first child and then a second child a year later.

So you started. Yeah, I mean, that's what happens. If you do it, that's what happens. That's what you're supposed to do. Well, I didn't know condoms and birth control. I was i was like hey i'm having sex for the first time this is great you know right so you didn't know anything about that no nothing really i mean i knew a little bit right because in the yeshiva you know boys there's some boys who know more yeah talk but i'd like not practically yeah you know and it's also understood that you just have kids yeah yeah so you're

sneaking off you're renting dvds but you're not getting hookers and stuff. No, not yet. Oh, really? That happened? Oh, yeah. There's actually like maybe a year and a half into my marriage, and I started reading more and getting into science. And one of the only places I could go to speak to Goyim,

where I felt free and I knew I wasn't going to be seen was a strip club because if there was another Hasidic Jew there who saw me he wouldn't rat on me because he's there too so the one of the only places I could go to interact with regular people about science so you but so like this yeah so like I had this strip or this she was like Norwegian or something you know and she tells me uh that uh that she's that she's uh that she's an atheist and she believes in evolution. And I'm like, ooh, I got my Rabbi Miller argument. And I'm like, oh, I can make you into a believer in like five minutes.

Because I still believed at the time. I mean, I was. What was Rabbi Miller's argument against atheism? It's the blind watchmaker. How come something as simple as an ashtray didn't evolve and something as complicated as a banana or a human did evolve? Yeah. You know, so I just lay it on her and i'm like there you go this is gonna do it and she looks at me and she says you know it's it's not the same thing and i'm like why she's like because an ashtray isn't

biological and i'm like whoa wow right and like i told the story i told the story to pan gillette and he says like oh it's amazing how much more convincing an argument becomes with a pair of tits in your face but yeah so i went home after that night and i was like wow after the strip club after the strip club and i was like oh my god i gotta i gotta get to the bottom of this and a couple of months later i was was like, yeah, I'm done. I'm done. There's no God. This is bullshit.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And that was when you were 23? I was like 22, almost 22, yeah. 22, two kids. Two kids. A bunch of hidden DVDs in your trunk. Yep.

You're sleeping with strippers. Well, yeah, well, sleeping with them, but yeah. Yeah. Well, eventually i did start you know seeing uh seeing hookers because like all right well it's it's got to be more to sex than just uh but you went with hookers because you couldn't really find anyone else who's gonna fuck a chassid yeah also also i didn't know how you didn't know how to talk to girl you know no game well how are you gonna have game when you got pay us in a hat yeah well i i now even when i

have pay is for a role i you know i can still find my way around you know well yeah you seem a little more well adjusted yeah i'm yeah so so somewhat well but so what does it take so so now that you when you started seeing hookers or started not believing in god i mean how long i think i was going to talk about hookers on the podcast. It's okay. But like, I mean, but how long before you're like, I got to get out of this? So at a certain point, I stopped caring.

And I brought my computer home. I bring the DVDs home. And me and my wife, we had an agreement. We were like, you know what? You do your thing as long as the kids don't know. As long as on Shabbos, you come home, you do a meal, you pretend everything is fine. So she's sleeping with people?

No, no, no, no, no. She's very religious. She remarried. She has a bunch of more kids. She's in. Right. So we had an agreement. Okay.

I was doing my thing. She was doing her thing, and it was okay. And at a certain point, she started saying like, okay, this is not going to work. You know, we got to make up our minds. About what? Divorce?

No, are you going to be religious or you're not going to be religious? And she went and told her dad and her dad came up to me after prayers Friday night and he said, listen, I know. In Muncie.

Because you're at his temple. Yes. So he says, you know, I know and I need you to make me a promise that you're going to be religious. And I said, you know, I know. And I need you to make me a promise that you're going to be religious. I said, you know, I don't make promises that I can't keep.

And he says, well, then you got to let her go. Yeah. I said, okay. And that was on a Friday night. And on Tuesday, I was divorced. That quick. You got to get. I got to get.

I got a legal divorce. Done. Out. No money, things, no nothing. Just you're done. Yeah. You can have whatever you want. I don't need anything. I just want out. There's a whole world out there. I got a legal divorce done out no money things no nothing just you're done yep you can have whatever you want I don't need anything

I just want out there's a whole world out there I want to see it and that was it that was it and I lost I got fired immediately from my job

which job I was working at a liquor store at the time a Hasidic liquor store yeah and so because I don't because I was open about not keeping Shabbos anymore

so if I touch kosher wine it becomes non-kosher. Oh, and that's why you got fired? Outside the fact that everyone knew in the community that you did this thing. Yeah, but I can't work at a wine store. I'm going to, you know. Oh, if you don't keep Shabbos at all. Yeah. Like it's not a matter of the day of Shabbos.

If you're a guy that doesn't keep Shabbos, you can't touch any booze. You can't touch any kosher wine. Yeah. No shit. Yeah. You're like a goy. Black magic no if a guy touched not a guy cannot touch one kosher wine really yeah it becomes non-kosher unless it's pasteurized if it's not pasteurized if it's like regular wine yeah then yeah that's what makes wine kosher that hasn't the only thing

that makes wine kosher is that it hasn't been touched by a Goy. There's no special process to it. It just has not been touched by a Goy. Uh-huh. It's so funny because Manischewitz and like Mad Dog 2020 was such a popular

fucking, you know, wino, alky, street level drunk shit. Mad Dog was like, and that's a Manischewitz product I think. Yeah, but the Hasidim

don't drink Manischewitz. It's not kosher enough. It's not? No. Oh, okay. There's actually a lot of very very good kosher wines there's like really expensive

kosher wines oh yeah yeah from Israel and from like France and yeah there's like a lot of really nice kosher wine I learned

everything I know about wine I know from working in the kosher wine store uh huh alright so you get fired you basically exiled yourself from that community

so how long before you had to pack up your shit and go? Immediately. Oh, really? Immediately. I was immediately out while my wife kept the apartment. I had nowhere to live.

Where'd you go? So I was crashing in a friend's basement for a while. In Muncie? In Muncie, yeah. Another Hasidic guy? Another, like, he was, like, on the fringe. You know, he was, like, an older single guy, which is also very unusual. Yeah.

He was living alone. And the whole other crazy story. That guy, like his dad is like a big deal in Vegas, like in casino business and his dad is not religious and he became Hasidic and then he became like modern Orthodox and then he doesn't know who he is,

but he had this place in Muncie and I was crashing with him. But he didn't go to your temple? No. Oh, okay. No, I just knew him through friends. Oh. All right.

And then what? Yeah. And then I decided that I'm going Yeah, and then I joined Footsteps, which is the organization that you see in the movie. In Brooklyn. In Manhattan, yeah. They're based in Manhattan. This is for Jews, Hasidic Jews who want out.

Yes, and they help you with shelter and food and high school diplomas, job search. Oh, really? Yeah, because you come out there and you know nothing. You don't know what a resume is because that's not how Hasidic Jews get jobs. They don't have resumes. They're like, oh, you know your Uncle Favish? Oh, yeah, he's hiring.

Oh, yeah, you want to work for him? Do you know how to use a computer? Yeah, I'll figure it out. All right, good, you're hired. That is literally how it works. It's like you can get any job. They think of most things, they're like, if a goy can do it can get any job it's like you know it's they look

they think of most things they're like if a goy can do it I can do it right the difference is a goy has to go to college

to learn how to do it and I can figure it out on my own oh right that's how it goes that's how it goes so there is a sort of like

you know that that sort of judgment you know it's interesting because that idea of the difference between Jews

and non-Jews is is not specific to Hasidim. And that thing is stuck through conservative Jewishness and I imagine some reformed Jewishness that the chosen people that were more educated that we know. Well, it's worse with Hasidim. No, I know. But it is a Jewish thing. Yeah, it is. with Hasidim. No, I know. But it is a Jewish thing. Yeah, it is. Of course, yeah. And it's actually, it's worse by Hasidim and unjustified too.

Right, from what you're telling me. Yeah, because they're all dummies. Well, you know, the thing is they're street smart. They're street smart. They're very street smart. That's why they love Trump. Well, they're street smart in the way that the streets of Borough Park. No, in general.

In business, too. That's why they like Trump. They don't like data and numbers and experts. Yeah. They go with their gut and they go. That's why they love him. Yeah. They're like, he's our kind of guy.

He's like, hey, fuck the establishment. I know how to do this. Yeah. So what? You're an expert. You know? That's it? That's in the Talmud?

No, but then the proof is in the pudding you know it's like well he's a billionaire so he must know something right so but that's where they but aren't there aren't there rules about business in the first five books yeah there are yes and they don't have to deal with that well but those only apply to jews jews dealing with jews so deal with Goyim, you don't have to follow those rules. So there's actually, the law is, the Jewish law is, that if you go to a Jewish store and they give you the wrong change, you have to return it. Yeah. But if you're at a non-Jewish store and they give you the wrong change, you don't have

to return it. Oh, really? Yeah. That's in the book. That's in the book. It's an actual law. Yeah. They say that you should return it to give the Jews a good name.

Right. But if you don't give a fuck. But if you don't give a fuck, then you don't have to return it. Yeah. We're not going to hold you responsible. Yeah. That's between you and God. Yeah.

And I was arguing like Noam Dorman from the Sela. We were arguing about it. He's like, well, they say that because I said that the law, the Jewish law is that you cannot violate the Sabbath to save a non-Jew's life. Yeah. And he said that, well, that's not in the book. And I said, well, let's look it up. And we looked it up and it says, like the latest ruling on that is that you're not allowed to, but you should. Because otherwise the Goyim are going to say that the Jews are not allowed to violate the Sabbath to save a goyim's life.

Right. So, it's like it's optics. So, legally, you can. But it's also adaptation. It's not just optics. Right. Because there's something about those kind of rules where it's sort of like, because always at the core of this, certainly in modern Hasidim, is that we don't want to make trouble with the goys because they're going to kill us.

You're right, yeah. And here I am spilling the secrets, and now they know. Now they're definitely going to kill us. The ones that want to kill you know. They already know. That's the problem. What about you and your kids? Yeah, now we're getting there. Was that heartbreaking? It's got problem. Yeah. What about you and your kids? Oh, yeah. That's the...

Now we're getting there. Was that heartbreaking? It's got to be heartbreaking. How long did you know them for? Well, my son was almost three. My oldest was almost three when I left. So I didn't know them for that long. And they have the option, like theoretically, her family and her, that if they can keep

you away permanently, they'll have no memory of you. Yeah. But they know. They know I exist because they know they have like three sets of grandparents right oh so your parents are still part of their life yeah they let them do that yeah and also like when they get called to the torah when they when he gets bar mitzvah yeah you know he's gonna be called to the torah they're not gonna call him you know his name and his stepfather's name they're gonna say my name because they have to yeah so he's going to know he's going to know that his father's name is not so what's your relationship with them i have no i have no relationship i haven't seen them since isn't that horrible yeah it's uh i think it's the i think it's best for everyone that way yeah yeah but you know hard to explain you know but. Because it would complicate things with no solution.

Yeah, exactly. Because I still think that the most important thing in life is to be happy. I think it's more important than the truth, which is weird coming from me. And I think that even though my kids are being raised in a community and in a faith that I don't believe in that I think is morally wrong. I think that their mother is a lovely mother and their stepfather is a lovely dad and they're being raised and they're going to be happy. They're not going to have a horrible childhood like me

and they'll grow up to be happy. Hasidim, maybe. And if I just come in and confuse them, I don't think it does anyone any favors. Right, because you can't. You're not taking a stand in the sense that you want to out the community you came from to destroy it because you know you can't.

Yeah, I would like for it to end. Yeah. But I know I can't i and that's not what i'm trying to do i'm not that's the other thing like i'm not an activist like there's some people who leave and they become activists i'm not you know i'm in it for myself you know i'm building a career you know i'm building a life yeah but but like but but see the the sort of premise of of responsibility and following the rules no matter matter how bizarre and limiting they are, give you a sense of, I guess on some level, there must be some good chassids. Oh, there are many.

There are many. Like that rabbi you knew in Yeshiva that are doing good in the world or at least honoring God in a way that isn't cruel. Did you know that every hospital in the New York City Tri-State area has a room called the Bikke Choylem Room, which means visiting the sick. Yeah. And there are buses full of volunteers that go from hospital to hospital every single day

and fill those fridges with free food. Chassidim. Yes. You can go to any hospital and you will see like, you will see some door with like Hebrew letters on it and a combination lock on it.

And everybody knows, the people in the community know the combination lock. And if you're like a Chassidic person or a Jewish person for that matter, who is in any New York City hospital, you find the Bkechoilenwurm and you can eat for free if you're visiting family.

And there are people, volunteers, mothers with big families. And this is any Jew. This is not a missionary work. This is just, this is pure volunteer, pure service. And if you get a flat tire in Borough Park or in Williamsburg or Muncie, you call Chavayrim, which is an organization, all volunteers, and they will come and they will change your tire.

They'll give you a boost. They'll dig you out of the snow. If you get locked out of your apartment, they have locksmiths, volunteer locksmiths. Only Jews? They only come for Jews, yeah. Yeah. They have Hatzalah, their own ambulance service, all volunteer, less than two-minute response time. you know less than two minute response time so given that so that so you have to acknowledge in your heart and in your mind that they're they're despite your problems with the insulation of the community that that your kids you know have a shot at being okay yeah yeah and i think i i

think if i came into their lives i i would i you know, the chances would decrease. But how do you rationalize the selfishness of your pursuit? Yeah, well, I rationalize it by the fact that I wasn't given a choice. Because the rules were as such. Yeah. That they wouldn't allow you to to live in both worlds yeah if i impregnated someone now i would i would deal with it a lot differently you know i would take responsibility because now i know right so you you were saying that on some level that you were

that that you're sort of you were stifled and indoctrinated by the confines and cult-like nature of the community. So how did it unfold with your father, that, you know, the falling out again? He just. Well, he called me up and he said, oh, are you in this video, one of us? So my father, he obviously has never seen a movie.

He doesn't... Like, for example, when Felix and Mira came out. Yeah. The Canadian film about the... Yeah. That I was in. It was actually Canada's entry for the Foreign Language Oscar that year. It did really well.

Yeah. And I told my father, we were talking at the time, I said, I'm going... Because we premiered at Toronto Film Festival. And I said, I'm going to Toronto for the premiere of the film. He's like, oh, so you're going to go

and act the movie over there? I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to go and play the movie. He's like, oh, you're not going to act it? No, dad, I already acted it. They're going to show

a video of me. Oh, they're going to show a video? Then why do you need to be there? You know, he just doesn't understand like play, movie, video. He doesn't get it at all. Yeah. No kidding. He has no idea. It would seem that he would enjoy the Yiddish show. need to be there you know he just doesn't understand like play movies he doesn't get it at all yeah

no kidding he has no idea it would seem that he would enjoy the Yiddish show and my dad is very very funny

my dad is very funny you can't get him to come to a show no even if I could he wouldn't want to be seen I mean he's the Rebbe

the Rebbe going to a show a mixed scene but that's where the fight is though dude right to get your fucking siblings to come see you know something some of my siblings some of my siblings come i'm not gonna out okay one of them but but but but it's fundamentally jewish not to them you don't understand like i

didn't know who shalom aleichem was i didn't know who isaac bashevis singer was even that's the thing even secular yiddish literature has no place in that world there's only Hasidic literature you know I never heard of like the Borscht Belt I found out about the Borscht Belt 10 years ago

yeah I didn't know about those comedians huh I didn't so are you doing any writing? a little bit yeah a little bit here and there I'm working on

we're trying to to get to kind of like bounce off of one of us and trying to create a series loosely based on my life, on a guy who left the community and trying to make it out of the world. But it seems like that philosophically to sort of bridge this gap

because your struggle ultimately, since you can't completely extricate yourself from the from the community you know both as a character and as somebody who grew up in it that you know the in in the only way that you become a real threat is you know it's like it's the struggle you had with your father-in-law where it just becomes down if you're not going to be religious, you got to tell me. But it seems to me that there is a way to, the way you become a real rebel without being an activist is to engage elements of the community in your creativity.

Oh, I am. I am. I meet people all the time. If I go to Barra Pakistanis, I miss the food and I go and get some chulant or some kugel, you know,

and someone would come up to me and, you know, and tell me that they saw, you know, Felix Amira and they're really inspired. I have met people. Who are still in the community.

Yeah. When I was in, when Felix Amira premiered in London, I had these kids who came to the premiere and they had no payers, no beard and said that like

watching my growth and watching me go out there and you know quote unquote making it in the outside world helped them to leave people are leaving because of me people are you know they get they get some uh encouragement from it yeah i just wonder if you could ever like if it ever becomes like catholicism or something where you know exceptions have to be made to where they can expand their horizons what What do you mean? That eventually, you know, but it's so insulated and so genetically kind of like a closed system that you would think that eventually like just to integrate, but they don't want to. No, they don't want to.

And it's funny, like going back to what I said about all the good things they do. Yeah. You know, like even that you have you have to compare it to North Korea. He does give his people healthcare. He does give his people education. Yeah, but he's not, but the Rebbis

are not hanging their people in front of other people. no, but they're hanging children who get sexually abused. Hanging them out to dry, you mean? Basically.

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a whole other story. Yeah. Did that happen to you? Yeah. Yeah.

I've talked about that in the past, yeah. By who? By a private tutor. Three years from when I was nine until I was 12. And did you tell your father? No. You didn't tell anybody? No.

I didn't know because he was the only guy I trusted. And I didn't get along with my parents, and he was my only friend. And that's how he took advantage of it? Yeah. And did you know other kids that were in the same situation? No, I didn't know it and so i i didn't find out about uh about that he was doing it to other kids until my parents called me and told me about it and that's when they asked me like oh we know he does it to other kids did he do that to you and what happened to that guy nothing

still teaches heinous yeah well i'm glad you seem okay and i'm glad the career is working out yeah for now yeah yeah i'm staying negative you know don't i mean don't i mean i i mean i don't know how much guilt you carry a lot i i listen i i i listen to you and like sometimes the the thing that holds me together is like i just hope it doesn't take me until i'm 50 to what to figure out figure what out i don't know like you seem to. To figure it out. Figure what out? I don't know. Like you seem to have, you know,

figured it out. At least figured out your shit and how to deal with it and how to contain it. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I mean, success helps with that a little bit.

Yeah. And also, but there's some things that, you know, they're unreconcilable and I think some of them, you know, seek spiritual solutions

to enable you the freedom of mind and heart to at least let go of some things and i don't necessarily engage that and i and i fight that myself and you live with that yeah you know you have to compartmentalize something but but you know that's one of the reasons why people you know choose spirituality or have some sort of even if it's a dogmatic system for processing shame or guilt or righteousness, if you're just winging it, it's a selfish endeavor

and there's still emptiness there. Yeah. But that's something you have to accept. Yeah. Or try to figure it out and just drive yourself insane. I don't know what there is

to figure out. I don't know either. It's very confusing. The whole thing just doesn't make sense. Yeah, and if this were a Hasidic tale, it would end with, so, what do we do? Let's go talk to the Rebbe.

And then we had a L'chaim and some cake and the Goyim died. Alright, buddy. Thanks, man. Thank you. Man. All right, buddy. Thanks, man. Thank you. Thank you. Man, that's something else. Religion. Huh?

Really? I guess the Hasidic community is sort of a version of extreme religious nerds. Is that possible? Probably not. I mean, I think probably the cult model is more correct. I got the Telecaster back. I strung it up, and I just tuned the guitar. Okay, so let's do this. Thank you. Boomer lives! You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

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