WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 943 - Shooter Jennings / Rob Riggle

Episode Date: August 19, 2018

Shooter Jennings was born into Nashville royalty, the son of Waylon Jennings and Jessi Colter. But he didn't exactly fit the Outlaw Country archetype. In fact, he was a computer nerd whose real influence was Nine Inch Nails. Shooter talks with Marc about developing his own style, idolizing George Jones, collaborating with Stephen King, and always changing things up. Also, Rob Riggle stops by to explain how a fake idea he told people about to mess with them turned into an actual show, Rob Riggle’s Ski Master Academy. This episode is sponsored by NHTSA.gov, Disenchantment on Netflix, and Burrow. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what the fuckadelics what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf i'm not at home i'm in chicago i'm in chicago i got a show. Well, I had a show. I'm taping this a little early. I just got here, but I would have had a show last night if everything went as planned. I'm taping this a couple days before this episode airs, and this is a good episode. I've got Shooter Jennings on, son of Waylon Jennings, country music and alt-rock and just rock and experimental music guy. Shooter Jennings. Never met him. Nice talking to him.

Rob Riggle is also stopping by for a second to talk about his new thing, but I'm excited to be in Chicago. I like Chicago. I've always liked Chicago. And I'm here to shoot the final season of Easy, Joe Swanberg's Netflix series. I'm reprising, is that the word, my character Jacob Malco, the graphic novelist. And this is it. I think this is the last season. And it's going to be exciting. I'm going to be working with Jane Addams again and Melanie Linsky, who I love. I've never worked with her. I haven't seen her in years. It feels like I don't think I have not since I talked to her on this show. So that's why I'm in Chicago.

I'm also doing a show at the Thalia Hall, but that will have all already have happened yesterday. And let's just hear maybe, Hey, it i'm gonna try that why not say that ahead of time did i jinx it no i don't think so i only think i jinx it if i get paid before the show but uh i am in chicago rob riggle i've not talked to rob riggle in a while and uh it was uh always good is it i like seeing rob he's a good guy solid. And he's solid in the real sense. You know, he's an ex-Marine. He's a solid dude. And he's got a new show. It's available on Sony Crackle.

It's called Rob Riggle's Ski Master Academy. It premieres this Thursday, August 23rd. You can stream it for free on Sony Crackle. So this is me talking to Rob back at the garage. Nice chat. Nice chat, me and Mr. Riggs. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode

where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Cool. Got a pool? Yeah.

That's nice. Yeah, we didn't for a long time. For the first eight years, we didn't. You built it? You put it in? We got a new house. Oh, okay. Yeah.

So you're using it now, right? Yes. How old are the kids? 10 and 14. Oh, so they like it. It's prime time. They bring friends over. It's prime time.

Everyone's hanging out at your house? Which is how I like it, believe it or not. I actually like it that way. You know where they are. I kind of do and it's i must it must be a control thing but i i do like having everybody assemble right yeah just have your friends come over here exactly yeah bring you want to have a girl party bring your girls over and i try to we tried to make the house accommodating so that it would be a good place to gather are there were there boys or girls uh one the oldest is a girl the youngest youngest is a boy.

So you encourage that. You're very cool folks. It's fun to hang out. Yeah, we're cool enough. We're not the bring your coolers over and party at our house parents. We smoke weed, smoke weed. No, no, no. We're not those folks.

But yeah, we try to make it an entertaining house. Those days are not that we'll ever entertain underage partying, but those days are coming soon enough. Oh, where they're not underage anymore? Well, she's 14, he's 10. Yeah. And, you know, the next 10 years, you're going to see some transitioning going on. Yeah. You ready?

Are you ready? No. No, he's ready. I don't know. I just try to remember what I did. Well, that can't be helpful when you have a daughter. Oh, it's the worst. It's the worst. Oh, that's ready. I don't know. I just try to remember what I did. Well, that can't be helpful when you have a daughter. Oh, it's the worst. It's the worst.

Oh, that's the worst. Because I know they're just boys. They're walking hormones. It's not their fault. It's the nature. It's the nature of the beast. And I know what they're like. And I know their knuckleheads.

Is she like the knuckleheads? No, she's actually really smart and very creative um she's so far advanced beyond what i was at 14 yeah you just gotta you gotta you know keep a sort of a kind eye that a knucklehead doesn't ruin her for life yeah and it can happen i know man yeah it's so scary for me i don't even have kids all it takes is one shitty boyfriend uh-huh to fuck your everything you put into it up yeah the good thing is we made she's resilient so even even if some turd comes along uh she's going to weather that storm and be fine and you have a good enough relationship where she would talk to you

absolutely yeah yeah and god bless that and my wife yeah she'll talk because you know obviously it may be weird to talk to dad about something. Sure, sure, yeah. But she's good enough with mom that she can lock in. There's no pushback. She doesn't hate you guys. Not yet. She's not going to show you. Yeah, no. Thank God.

There's none of that. It's been pretty healthy and wholesome. Oh, good. But, yeah. No, I've seen the families that have that. And that's a whole other bag. So, what have you been doing, man? I mean, I know you got this Ski Master Academy. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, what have you been doing since? Like i know you got this ski master academy yeah yeah but like

what have you been doing since like when was the last time i saw you like five years ago i think it was probably four years ago four or five years ago you've been doing movies and stuff i have been i've been i'm uh uh always working that's the thing you are because the only thing is is uh you know this as well as i do you eat eat what you kill. Yeah. So if you're not hustling all the time, you're going to be hurting. Or if you're not making yourself available in an aggressive way. Yeah.

And I got like five irons in the fire at all times. Right. You're calling your agent going, I'm here. What's up? Where are we at? Yeah. You remember that thing we talked about?

It's a constant struggle to get your reps on the phone. Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah. And then you get a return call at the worst possible fucking time. Yeah, yeah. Or at midnight. And you stop everything because you Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah. And then you get a return call at the worst possible fucking time. Yeah, yeah. Or at midnight. And you stop everything because you're a desperate fuck.

That's it. Everything falls apart for your image of who you are to the public, to yourself, when you're waiting to talk to a rep, and then the phone rings. Oh, God, I got to take this. I got to take this. It's a funeral. It's a funeral. You know?

And you jump out of whatever you're doing, and then when you answer it, you try to be nonchalant and cool. Like, hey, Tom, what's going on, man? Like, I've been, it's kind of an annoyance you called, but what's up? Yeah, yeah, what's up? Hold on a second.

I'll be right there. It's the agent. I'm sorry, go ahead, man. Yeah, yeah. And then they're like, what do you want, Riggle? And I was like, hey, do you remember

that thing we talked about? I was just thinking maybe if it was possible we could have lunch and then I could maybe explain myself and why this is such a great idea. Okay, Riggle,

we'll see what we can do. Don't panic too much explain myself and why this is such a great idea okay we'll see what we can do don't panic too much just relax try to relax kid fuck you then you hang up you go back to

what you were doing ah you know nothing there's nothing piece of shit yeah so no I've been working trying to

I've spent like four and a half months down in Atlanta last year just doing films that's where everything is now i'm telling you that's yeah that or vancouver was it down the summer uh it was a part of it was in the summer part of it was in the spring oh summer in atlanta oh rough yeah it's humid here now when did that fucking happen it feels like new jersey i don't dig it either because

one of the advantages of california is no humidity what's going on yeah it's horse shit and i don't dig it either because one of the advantages of California is no humidity. What's going on? Yeah, it's horse shit. And I don't know where it's coming from. Yeah, it's coming in from fucking Jersey. I don't know. From Jersey. It's somewhere. Real trouble. Somebody's pumping in this humidity that ain't part of our program out here.

No, no. The program seems to be changing rapidly. 75, sunny, crystal clear, and crisp. Yeah. And then at night it drops down a beautiful 55 that's nice so you got a nice sweatshirt or whatever and you're golden and it's the most beautiful weather in the world here here and now it's all of a sudden it's fucking orlando yeah i don't know where it's just wet sauna i don't know what happened i don't dig it i don't dig it at all so it was the really one

of the only good things about living out here yeah yeah because i was like this state's so fucking expensive and the taxes and i'm like it's a weather tax it's worth it because of the weather tax yeah now now now i don't know dude so oh vancouver too you were up there doing work yeah yeah i did a couple films up there as well and uh 12 strong which was a war movie with uh like chris hemsworth and michael shannon oh yeah um and you were one of the guys with the helmets? I was one of the... Which war? Afghanistan. Oh, so... And actually, funny story,

I actually played in the movie Lieutenant Colonel Max Bowers, who was in charge of the 3rd Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group in Mazar-e-Sharif in northern Afghanistan in October of 2001. As a young captain myself in the Marines, I reported to Lieutenant Colonel Max Bowers

in November of 2001 in Mazar-e-Sharif and worked on his staff, and then I play him in the marines i reported to lieutenant colonel max bowers in november of 2001 in mazari sharif and worked on his staff and then i play him in the movie wow i'm playing my old boss in the movie so you kind of had a line in oh well i knew that i knew the whole thing i knew everything about the their program the mission that they did even because i had a security clearance so i knew what their mission was this was just declassified a couple years back wow um that must have been cool yeah so it was fun to see the story finally get to you know how they do with it they did a good job okay i think they did a good job yeah and then uh now when you're on a set like that do you uh do you stop the action and go like yeah i don't think it's

you guys are quite doing this uh i was there i was there sometimes uh if they if and it just comes down to like the nomenclature of the language right you know yeah they say i whatever i can't even think of an example right now but if they get that wrong i say actually i think it would be said this way in marine speak in marine speak or you know military speak because it's all acronyms anyway but right um and they were they were open to it but for the most part they they had their shit squared away no that's cool man that's cool and then i did a drama which a heavy drama where i play a father of a wait was the war movie a comedy well it was a i call that a straight role more than a drama okay all right um but uh

the drama was like you know i mean we're talking about some really moating here some real some deep subjects like my daughter in the movie was dying oh rare disease. So I never get those opportunities. And that was a really cool. How'd you do with it? I think I did okay. Did you cry? People, yeah. I got tore up.

But people liked it. Good. It went well. That's great. Yeah. And now I have a movie coming out, Kevin Hart and Tiffany Haddish called Night School. Oh, yeah.

Coming out in September. Oh, good. And then this thing, Robert Will Ski Master Academy, is an idea I've had forever. And I finally got off my lazy ass and put the pitch together and got somebody to buy off on it, Sony Crackle.

God bless them. Uh-huh. So this was like originally years ago like a Comedy Central or Funny or Die pitch or what? No, you know what it was? It actually started people that you know this fucking town hey what are you working on what are you working on what are you working on these days what are you working on yeah and i i would say i finally got to the point where i was tired of explaining myself so i would just say

i'm thinking about opening a jet ski academy you know and that would be my answer yeah and i would a what academy a jet ski oh jet ski jet ski okay yeah and i say i'm gonna think i've been giving a lot of thoughts over to jet ski academy and i would say with a straight face and a very sincere delivery and most of the comedians i knew you know i knew i was doing a bit and fucking around sure but a lot of folks didn't fucking know they didn't know yeah and so they'd be like oh that's that's amazing that's uh when did you get you know and i i wouldn't give it up i would just say oh with that fucking horrible sad voice like oh good for you, good for you. So you're out, huh? Yeah.

You quit. Yeah, good for you. Yeah, and you could see in their mind, they were like, good. Yeah. Good. Another one bites the dust. But it's just that dumb sort of like, all of a sudden, you're a victim of some kind. Oh, well, that's great.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's fun. Fun. Any life decision you make that doesn't fit their model. Yeah, yeah. Ooh, okay.

Good for you. You're okay, though, right? Yeah. Oh, God, I know that. i know that fucking judgment i know it's the worst man uh worst so anyway that's how it started and it started that way and then i started thinking about i was like that would be a funny world actually a jet ski academy if i owned a jet ski academy i'd be like this b-list celebrity who fucking just like oprah has her school in Africa, and now LeBron has his school in Cleveland. Yeah. Why not me have my academy? Right, right.

And so I created- For those less fortunate white people. Is that what you're- Well, I mean, look, teaching personal watercraft safety to troubled urban youth. All right. I see the sense in that. Oh, troubled urban youth. That's what you're using?

Sure. Why not? Yeah. So anyway, I put together a pitch with a couple of comedy buddies, and Sony Crackle bought into it. Was it like Caddyshack? Do you know what I mean? Is it like, you got a few guys working at the place.

Yeah. One of them's a stoner. One of them's like a troublemaker. It's set up like an academy. So you have students, and you have instructors. And then you have me, who is like the figurehead who runs it, but I'm kind of there, kind of not. I'm very self-serving. As an academy, though, it's a jet skiing academy.

Yes. All right. So it's obnoxious to begin with. It's absurd. It's like fun school. Yeah, pretty much. And there's all kinds of mis begin with. It's absurd. It's like fun school. Yeah, pretty much. Okay. And there's all kinds of mischief that the cadets get into.

Do they live at the school? Uh-huh. Oh, so it's like camp. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like two-week program? Or boarding school, maybe.

Oh, really? Or boarding school. Do you have regular school, too? No, God, no. Oh, so it's just- There's no time for that. But how long are they in the place? Personal water.

I'm sorry if I'm asking too many detailed questions. Well- I want to know if this is realistic or not robby it's super realistic i mean it's a whole nother level yeah you're not we didn't miss a single thing yeah we didn't miss a single thing so but no seriously so how long do they stay there um you know it doesn't matter we'll say a school year sure okay a school year so they don't go to regular school and they just weren't how to do jet ski that's right for the year that's right because we actually at the end of eight episodes they did graduate from the academy okay so maybe eight episodes that's how long they go to school that's good that's about right that sounds about

right that's about right who are the other goofballs on this thing uh paul sheer oh good yeah he's one of my old time buddies from ucb sure um uh eliza coop uh-huh um very funny lady yeah uh billy merit oh yeah yeah oh so a lot of ucb guys yeah yeah and uh and then you know i reached out to uh cheech marin yeah he came out and played with us did he yeah dermot mulroney uh jamie lynn sigler davquette. Wow. All came in as guest stars. Sure. Chris McDonald, who you may know as Shooter McGavin, and Happy Gilmore. Okay.

If you saw that. Sure. If you didn't see that, you probably saw Grease 2. He was one of the T-Birds in Grease 2. Sure. Yeah. You know, I might have missed both of those. I might have.

I don't know how. Yeah. I know. It's crazy. I don't know how I miss most things either, but I do. I do miss most things either but i do i do miss most do you find yourself in this town especially i i'm constantly being told all right i know there's a lot out there but you've got to watch this yeah you've got to watch this and now my list of what i've got to watch is fucking ridiculous who the fuck are these people telling you that or there

is also people where that you know when it's hey, everybody knows this thing. How do you not know it? I'm like, I guess I'm not in the right loop. I don't pay that much attention to Twitter anymore, but all of a sudden, everybody knows the thing. And I'm like, how did I miss it? Yeah. How did I miss it? I get news on my phone.

Yes. And also, I'm starting to feel my age because I did an improv show the other night and we dropped- You were winded? We dropped, well, that. But I dropped a reference of Michael Dukakis. Oh, boy. And I literally saw everybody look at each other like, I don't know who Michael Dukakis

is. Wow. And I realized, oh, shit. Uh-huh. Most of this audience was born- 19. 89, 90. Wow. How old are you now i'm 48 yeah i'm 54 i'm gonna be 55 next month they didn't know who dukakis was yeah dude yeah i i'm doing a like a i have a palm

pilot reference in one of my jokes and i and the part half of the joke is me explaining what it is that's good stuff, though. That's really good. That's awesome. Did I hear you say you were working on a new set? I shouldn't give anything away. I don't want to give anything away. Oh, no, no, no.

I'm just like, I'm doing some dates, you know, trying to put together an hour. Oh, that's awesome. I've got a lot of it. You know, it seems like that's something we need to do every year. Someone made this secret rule where you got to turn over an hour every year. But I think that's Louis louis ck isn't it kind of but like there were guys who did it before he he just made a spectacle he was churning him out a lot of those guys that carlin would do one every year i mean you know it's not that unusual

when it's your bread and butter i guess to a comic if you know if you were one of the hbo guys you know who got specials yeah a year and a half a year yeah i mean i do it anyways it turns out really but uh but now you think you're more conscious of it you know uh and then there's that like once you dump the hour there's that moment you're like i got nothing yeah nothing where does it come from that's a lonely place it is but like it just it comes out of nowhere it comes out of thin air for me i you know it's like i don't know things they're starting to come together somehow uh-huh you know if i keep getting on stage that's very true and it's a scary process but once you do it a couple times you just trust in the process yeah you just like well i riff out stuff like you're an improviser i do that with stand-up so i'll go to a low-key place you know

with my you know outline of ideas right and just riff them out and see what sticks and then try to remember like i always think like i'll listen to it and i'll make notes i never do it's like it's gonna stick here like you know that thing i lose like especially when you get on stage it flies out of your head yeah but like also like uh you know what are you really gonna work on but then you like you should go listen to the tapes because they're like oh there was that one beat. What was it? And I'm like, I don't even.

I didn't embrace taping myself for a long time. Right. And then I did once. I finally remembered to do it. Maybe it was just I forgot. Yeah. And I remembered one show.

I think it was at the University of Missouri, but I took my phone and I put it on the bench out of the stool and I recorded the show. Yeah. So fucking glad I did that because I went back and I listened. yeah and i put it on the sure bench yeah of the stool right recorded the show yeah so fucking glad i did that because i went back and i listened yeah and i finally kind of heard my own show and i

heard the responses yeah and i it really helped dial in something tighten it up yeah what are you and i lost a lot of superfluous shit because there's always yeah you want to fill time yeah of course let me over explain this for 10 minutes oh my god and uh and when you say when you are discovering stuff i remember uh john oliver was the guy who kind of got me to do stand-up and he would start i would just go tell a story yeah five three minute story five minute story and i knew where there would be some punches yeah but the rest was kind of let's see what we can do in the storytelling process yeah as far as sure yeah and that's where i would wing it and i would get

laughs where there weren't any and i said okay i gotta remember that gotta remember right exactly exactly you just tell the story a hundred times and eventually you got three tight funny minutes sure embellish it you get more minutes exactly go off on thoughts within the story exactly so do you still do stand up a lot no oh no i have not done it any reason is because my set was done it had a two-year three-year run yeah uh how about two three-year run so do you see that as a show because i mean you don't really come from stand-up so when you put together a show you know do you are you in character you go go as you? No, when I'm doing stand-up, I do, it's me. Yeah.

And if I'm doing improv, it's improv. You play what you got to play. Right, right, right. But, yeah, I wasn't playing theaters. I was playing clubs, and I was on the road a lot. I had two young kids. The return on investment was questionable. Time investment, you mean? Yeah. Well, I was gone so much, and the road a lot. I had two young kids. The return on investment was questionable. Time investment, you mean?

Yeah. Well, I was gone so much, and the money was okay, but it wasn't- Missing the kids growing up kind of thing. It was a lot of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Life doesn't like you anymore? A lot of that. A lot of that.

And I still liked her a lot. You're out there in Siberia. Fuck yeah. She's just like, why isn't he helping me? Right, right. And somehow, I'm bringing home the money, but I'm still the bad guy. Yeah, of course. She's just like, why isn't he helping me? Right, right. And somehow, I'm bringing home the money, but I'm still the bad guy.

Yeah, of course. That's a whole other thing. Yeah, yeah. Your children don't know your name. You want to do your act for them? Yeah. Yeah, maybe they'll enjoy that. Oh, shit.

So I stopped doing it, but I haven't, I don't think I've ever, I don't think I'm going to quit it. Right. I just need to get to a stage where I can get back into it. Sure.

And now that I live out here, I got to be honest, fucking New York is the place to build a set. Yeah. Because you can hit five mics easy. Yeah, you can do that here.

It's just a chore. It's a chore. For me, it's a fucking chore. Live it out a thousand miles. Right. And then it's a half hour between gigs and maybe you get

two or three mics a night. But to do stand-up. To get up and get, you know, work mics a night. To do stand up. To get up and work out like 10, 15 minutes or whatever. Yeah, I mean, and you also gotta be in. It's better to do it at a club. When I'm trying to really build an hour, I used to go to the Steve Allen Theater and just do a month of Tuesdays.

And just $5 ticket and just riff for an hour or two to see what happens. Now I've been going to the Ice House. But the Ice House is actually a real club. The Pasadena? Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, you know, I want to riff and do shit.

But you're like, this is a real comedy club. So that muscle goes in like, hey, give them a good show. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a hot room. Yeah? Yeah.

Good. Good, good, good. You should go there. Yeah. No, I have buddies that go there. Sarah Tiana and roy albanese these guys they hit that place a lot yeah it's good workout room yeah it's almost like cheating it's such a good room oh good yeah yeah so how do people watch this is it easy to watch it's so

easy it's uh it's on sony crackle which is free okay which is great because you know some of these pay in these digital sites the netflix hulu i love them but you got to pay yeah uh this sony crackle is free and how do you get there you uh go to uh you can google it you can get the app on your phone sony crackle sony crackle that was it right okay yeah and then it comes out august 23rd um all the episodes will be out um and uh it's it's a really funny show with an amazing cast it's ridiculous comedy there's no message or agenda. It's just straight up fucking balls out comedy.

Good. So you did eight. Yeah, I did eight. And now what are you doing? Well, I just shot a pilot for Fox. Oh, good. Literally last night. Oh, really?

Yeah. How'd it go? Taped it last night. It went great. Who's in it? Is it all you? No, it's a three-hander. It's Caitlin Olsen from Always Sunny sunny in philadelphia yeah uh and

um the mick and also leah remney yeah and myself i was funny ladies yeah it's it's a it's a great you're a funny lady it's a great thank you very much um i get that a lot especially with this beard yeah um you get some laughs three camera thing yeah is it multi-cam no shit yeah and uh we got we got some laughs and it was great having the audience. A live audience always makes things better. Sure. And it was cool. So we taped it, literally taped it last night.

And who knows? We'll have to test it and edit it. For FX or for Fox? For Fox. Exciting, man. Thanks, bud. I'm glad you're working. You seem well.

Yeah. I'm very impressed with your, can I mention your house? Sure. Your house is gorgeous. Oh, thanks, buddy. Yeah. I really love it. Yeah. And I'm proud of you your, can I mention your house? Sure. Your house is gorgeous. Oh, thanks, buddy. Yeah, I really love it. Yeah.

And I'm proud of you. Thank you very much. I'm going to try to keep it, I'm going to try not to tell people where it is. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. But it's a gorgeous house. Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

I got lucky. Thanks, man. You did well. Thank you. Rob Riggle. Isn't that fun? Did I just say that? Wasn't that fun?

I never say that. I never say, we're going to have fun. That sounds like fun. Ooh, fun. Wasn't that fun? Man, something's changing. Something is happening in ironic counterbalance to the world with my well-being and sense of self. I'm going to let it happen. I'm going to keep letting it happen.

So I almost had Shooter Jennings on a while back. We got common friends in Jeff Tate, but it never happened. Now, I'll try to catch up, man. This new record, Shooter's new record, I gotta be honest with you, it's a straight up country record. It's called Shooter. It's available now wherever you get music.

And I, you know, I don't, you know, his dad is Waylon Jennings. And many of you know that I grew up in New Mexico, but, you know, I was surrounded by country music to a certain degree. I didn't engage in it much. But I am old enough to remember what was unleashed on the country after the Urban Cowboy movie with John Travolta and Deborah Winger and John Glenn, I believe. and John Glenn, I believe, who mostly what I remember of that movie is John Glenn taking the last shot

of some mezcal tequila and playing with the caterpillar in between his teeth and a mechanical bull and line dancing. Well, after that happened, I don't even know the year on that, but I must have been in junior high or high school,

but all of a sudden there were large western dance halls opening up at least where I lived in New Mexico and there was a very large contingent of people tucking their shirts in wearing cowboy hats and cowboy boots and jigging in a line at these large dance halls that was what clubbing looked like in the southwest at a certain period in history but uh cowboy culture exists where i grew up in the state fair was always they always had waylon and willie and johnny and roy and buck and whoever merle and george and dolly loretta they were always there every year at the rodeo at the state fair. And I grew up sort of not with much cowboy in me, per se, and not with it in the house, but I did have boots.

I had boots, and at some point I had a hat. I had a straw Stetson hat. I wore some black cowboy boots when I was a grown man during that time where you wore black cowboy boots. All right, so Shooter. Yeah, man. It was good talking to Shooter. It was good talking to him about his dad.

It was good talking to him about his music. It was good talking to him about his new record. Yeah. I mean, and I like the record. The record's fucking straight up country, and he's got a very eclectic catalog, this Shooter Jennings character. And as I told you, I got a little nostalgic.

Albuquerque, New Mexico, cowboy hats, caravan dance club, where my dad used to go during his secret life and dance, and Western style. And just the basic, you know, pickups. That element that was there was sort of infused into the culture i had a you know i had a western belt still do that western belt buckle still do don't wear it much got some new cowboy boots haven't worn them i got them because i wore them in a movie but maybe i'll wear them it's in there that's all i'm saying so i just i brought that a little bit i think i did anyway so this is me talking to

shooter jennings his new record shooter is available now wherever you get your music nice chat with him yeah i remember that tate and i tried to hook me and you up jeff tate yeah i love jeff and how you go back with him or like i met him through i oh i met doug benson first yeah i went on doug's uh thing getting doug with high thing yeah and then he had uh doug started following me around touring and and doing those doug love movies things and and he invited me one of those that's where i met jeff he started following you on purpose yeah they kind of they booked a couple of those along my route and kind of so there was like a couple times that they were in the same cities and it was like well that's nice to have a little comedian following yeah it was fun i was out with

dean delray last night oh i did his thing i know yeah he told me yeah i talked to him for like nine hours dean talks to everybody for nine hours. And then he trims it down. Yeah, but he was talking about Stargun. Oh, boy. Yeah. My old man. Well, Dean was going on about Stargun because he was out here during that time. What was that, the late 80s or something?

No, God, you kidding me? Mid-90s? It was 2000. Oh, you're younger than us. I forgot. I was born in 79. Yeah, I'm born in 63. I think Dino is too.

So it was the mid-90s, but I listened to some of it this morning. Oh, boy. And what do you mean it's great shit? I don't know. It's cringeworthy to me sometimes because I was 21 years old writing all this shit and I didn't know what to write or to do. Right, but it's sort of interesting that, you know, it was just solid, you know,

hard rock music. And it was like, you know, it was LA hard rock music with that, you know, the lyrics were sort of like, you know, I'm in LA basically, right? Yeah, dude. It's so, it's so, exactly exactly i can see how that would might be it's lyrically it's so embarrassing for me and there's there's some things you know but i'm like

screaming and yes and all but i mean i i literally could not have been more redneck off the turnip truck type of situation and moving to la i mean i lived i mean i'm not like a redneck like hunter or anything like that but i lived in nashville and i'm like ooh la like i want to go there that's where all the rock stars and all my favorite dudes went you know and i visited as a kid and but but you must have some sense i mean i i can't imagine like first of all like the idea you know because i've talked to a few cats who, you know, your dad is Waylon Jennings. Right. So it takes some sort of insanity or balls to be like, well, I'm Waylon Jennings, kid.

I'm going to sing too. Right. Like, you know, because that could go either way. Oh, yeah. A lot of potential for failure. I mean, dude, like for me, I so like an mtv kid and a rock kid and shit living in nashville me and my dad were very close he's a great dad it wasn't one of the situations where like the famous dad never see him or something we were very close he wasn't some

weird abusive right out freak in the house not at all man he was like he was a great you know and i he had me late too so i probably missed some of the craziness that like my older brothers and sisters did. You know, what's the age difference? Uh, my youngest is 15 years older than me. Really? Yeah. My youngest one. That's my mom's daughter from her previous marriage at Dwayne Eddy.

So it's like my mom had one and my dad had five. Well, your mom, Jesse Coulter, right? That's right. And she's got, she's a significant country yeah star they were on the outlaws thing together she married she was married to duane eddie duane eddie before yeah so you got a half brother who's duane eddie's half sister half sister is duane eddie's kid yeah rebel rouser that's right that's right i used to go to his house as a kid now i love that thing yeah yeah i love duane Eddy. He's fucking awesome.

But I was there. I mean, man, you got to understand, I'm still just a big kid. And when I was little, one of the most profound influences on me was the Muppet movie. Because here's all this Hollywood business. And then there was like, my dad did that movie, Follow That Bird. And it was like big bird. So as a kid Follow That Bird, and it was like Big Bird. So like as a kid, I was getting ingrained

in this like, this Hollywood thing. And then I discovered like Guns N' Roses, and then that led to the back history of Hollywood and the Doors and all this stuff.

And then I was into Nine Inch Nails and fucking Marilyn Manson and all this shit. And I was like, that's where I'm going. Like there was either New York or LA.

Like Nashville, in my opinion, it blew. The music sucked. Like there were a couple maybe okay rock bands that were burgeoning like that's where i'm going like there was either new york or la like nashville in my opinion it blew the music sucked like there were a couple maybe okay rock bands that were burgeoning around there like jason the scorchers and shit but oh yeah but otherwise it was really shitty and i i hated the waylon's kid thing i did not want to play country at the time i was like i'm out of here yeah and i moved here and man i didn't have any foresight to that but i got here and spent you know a good 10 years where i was there was no whalen talk at all like i was i could not

get into the clubs or whatever the party places just like everybody else could not get into them no one cared about whalen right there's only like one or two people play on you in a little while it's like wait a minute you guys should know my dad no i loved it like to me i just you're free and i was a kid and i was i was 20 years 21 years old like spending my drinking years away from my parents and doing being nuts because i have to assume that you know your entire life in nashville you know you got everybody saying as wayland's kid right right like you grew up with that but like but in terms of how you grew up, so your dad was married before your mom. Right. And had another couple kids.

She's got a kid. He had five from several other marriages. And he had his first, yeah, I mean, my mom was his fourth marriage. And my mom had one previous marriage. So by the time that we, but you know, it was weird because I'm growing up and all of those kids were around. They were? They were. They had gotten, you know, of course I missed out probably their teenage years where things were more confusing.

But like they were all together. They had kids. Like my nephew, I have two nephews that are a year younger than me. One of them's a rapper named Struggle and the other one's a singer named Way. But I grew up with them like same age brothers but they're like my brother's kids oh i get it oh right i get it so kids yeah so so there are other music did any of the uh the siblings go into music um my sister plays piano and sings and she does her thing she kind of does more spiritual stuff and kind of along the lines christianity moms into yeah your mom's become a

was it always uh she well around the time that i was born she became pretty but her her parents like her mom was a was a uh preacher oh yeah they grew up in like a kind of revivalist kind of church in mesa where they were like they had like a tent and they you know and she would play in the band and her whole family grew up that's where she learned that yeah that's where she learned the tent racket right and then she kind of came back around came back around to it later in life you know but it's like so my my sister's kind of into that and my my brothers have dabbled in the business a little bit but like my nephews like those two are singer almost everyone that has been a spawn of those of my brothers and sisters have all gone into music like i think they've kind of seen the

the uh the you know the whole thing and wanted to jump in but it's it's funny it's cool i mean it's like our family's been so uh in music has been around it that it's almost like even if they weren't in music they knew a lot about music well you know waylon like it like i grew up in new mexico and i remember and my you know my my dad's wife literally is uh you know she's such a will a Willie Nelson head that it's freakish. She had a quilt made of just concert T-shirts of basically Willie Nelson. I love it. That sounds like my wife's mom.

My wife's mom, Kathy, she has like a misty. In our house, we have like a velvet Willie that used to hang over one of the beds in their house that grew up in, you know? So what I'm trying to picture though is like, cause Nashville is certainly a different town when you were a young guy, right? A young kid. Like it really, it kind of turned in the last decade, really. Last five years. Really?

Yeah. It feels like it's, I mean, it's a hundred people moving there a day. I mean. Really? It's got, yeah. Crazy. I think that number is starting to drop off, but over the last two years it feels like it's i mean it's 100 people moving there a day i mean really it's got yeah crazy i think that number's starting to drop off but over the last two years it was like 100 people a day and it's kind of crazy to watch sheep move though because it's like i remember moving here where it was like you don't go to silver lake yeah and then all of a sudden like people started coming in and then like i remember when austin was starting to burgeon like be pretty cool about like 10 years ago people started moving there and then all of a sudden, like, people started coming in. And then, like, I remember when Austin was starting to burgeon. Like, it'd be pretty cool.

About, like, 10 years ago, people started moving there. And then all of a sudden, like, Nashville happens and, like, Brooklyn and Silver Lake kind of start emptying out. And they all start moving to Nashville. Yeah, because there's this whole artisanal roots music sort of, you know, back to the earth, grow a beard shit going on. Yeah. We got to get to that lumberjack yeah the deep american music well there's some cats like you know and then like this sort of the you know there was this we i talked about this more specifically in a minute but there

it seemed like there was a you know this original wave you know whatever happens in mainstream country you know post your dad uh you, has always had some pushback from other country artists who are trying to make it more organic again. Has it got a sort of further away from the roots of country? There was that first, you know, there, well, there was obviously Graham Parsons and that crew, right? And Emily O'Hara. But then, you know, Steve Earle and those guys.

Yep. And then it seems like you and Sturgill and Margo. Oh, Margo Price. Margo Price. Yeah, I just met her the other day for the first time. I think she's great. She's great. So you're growing up in this.

Because I know you did this little sort of memorial album for George Jones, who I love. I love George Jones. Yeah. And just the idea that you're a little kid and you're in Nashville. And who are the people that are coming over the house? George came over a lot I mean I'll tell you my dad's closest friends yeah I would have what I would kind of say were

Carl Smith who's great old country singer one of my dad's kind of icons that when he was a kid he one of his heroes and they became friends he would come over a lot Tony Joe White I don't know if you ever got into him he's unbelievable he wrote Rain night in georgia oh yeah and all that like he he's a pulk salad annie anyway oh wow he's uh tony joe white was one of the greatest he used to come around a lot

george would come around a lot you know uh before and after he got sober um you know i don't remember to be honest with you any any real stories of him not being sober. But my mom always tells stories about when I was little and he was trying to get off the booze and shit. Yeah. But they would come around, you know. Willie and stuff would occasionally come over. But he lived in Texas. Yeah.

So those cats were kind of living there. Christofferson. Yeah, he'd kind of be around. Christofferson is the one that I'm the closest with since post my dad dying. Oh, yeah. I see him. Even now, I see him quite a seem quite a bit my been able to see in nashville no he lives in la between la and hawaii oh yeah he kind of lives in hawaii but how's he doing how's his head he's good man i mean he's gone through some crazy shit that they thought was like alzheimer's first and then it was lyme disease like they figured out he had some you know so he's been going through a lot of a lot of stuff yeah but he's like awesome he's still there

everything's there it's just like he has moments where he like trips over facts and in history and who doesn't right but like my kids have gotten to be around him and stuff which has meant a lot to me and them and so it's like yeah he's a good i mean he called me the first couple father's days after my dad died which i never would have expected to get a call from Chris. Oh, man, that's sweet. Very sweet stuff, so. So when you're coming up, though, when do you decide, like, what's that moment? Because I've talked to, who have I talked to?

I've talked to Jacob Dillon. Oh, yeah. I've talked to, you know, Duncan Jones, who's David Bowie's kid. Yeah. And obviously, it's a different arena. Duncan, man, I love Moon. Yeah, it's great. It's great.

I liked his new one too i haven't seen it yet uh and you know there there's sort of the weight of it but there is i think with with country there's more i think there's more of a tradition of family totally i mean because julian lennon had it a lot harder than i think anybody in country ever had you know right it's like and then like you got the whole carter cash you know empire or there must have been a dozen of them in the williams yeah it must have been a dozen i mean to different degrees of fame but yeah and then hank one two and three hank three's a little you know punk rock right yeah he like pushes the envelope that guy yeah and metal and everything i mean dude he he did something so profound by putting out, like, Straight to Hell. Like, it created an entire genre.

Like, there is still to this day. Metal country? Metal country bluegrass guys that are doing, like, you know, where it's kind of like stringed instruments, but like these metal kind of lyrics and arrangements. And screams. So he kind of like. So his old man is Hank, too? Hank Jr., yeah. Yeah, that guy's something.

Yeah, he is. Boy, he's a good artist though. He's like, if you, it's like somewhere along the way towards the end, I don't know what Kool-Aid got drank, but there was these 12 records in a row where he was the fucking best. Right. Really? Yeah.

So you look to that stuff a lot. To his earlier stuff. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah. No, sure. Songwriting wise and singing wise. He can play too, right, no, yeah. Songwriting-wise and singing-wise. He can play, too, right?

Oh, man. He's a piano, guitar, and everything. And how's Hank 3? Also, the great thing about generational artists is that you can see the sickness. Right. The pattern. How's everybody holding up over in Hank Williams williamsland oh man or you how do you hold up i mean i don't know what i mean there's this sort of uh this archetype right like the outlaw country dude and i think like to a certain degree when i was younger you know i had my heroes they

were never sober they were they were always fucking disasters right and you know i had my heroes they were never sober they were they were always fucking disasters right and you know the party you don't know whether it's genetic or you're just sort of like well this is what i want to do you know i want to be like that and then at some point if you live long enough you're like i'm tired man yeah that's so true man i mean i mean dude you know for me it's weird it's like my dad never drank, but I drink all the time. So it was like we had certain. He didn't do nothing? No, he did.

He did. He did like pills back in the 60s and 70s. And then when cocaine came out, that was his preferred. He was a pharmaceutical guy. Powders and pills. Uppers was his thing. You got to come down. I'm more of a weed and booze guy.

But, you know know like i guess there is somewhat of an archetype but i think that it's an archetype that like it goes across all artistic things i mean you know like my favorite writer writers are like honduras thompson and charles bakowski and people are like we're fucking yeah of course excess monsters you know and it's like yeah i just like um i think there's just something there and look man there's a lot of great sober artists out there i mean sure but the ones that definitely like ask the hard questions a lot of time tend to be the ones who are i guess so yeah i mean i i think so i i think that you know people who push themselves uh will

get somewhere or or not right for all the ones you're saying the that that will get somewhere or not. Right, right. For all the ones you're saying that did get somewhere, there's just literally dozens, hundreds. Who did not. Right, that's right. Their pen just like went off the page and that was that. You are right. But, you know, so when did you decide, when did you start to learn how to do music?

Hey, man, it was really natural for me. So when did you decide, when did you start to learn how to do music? Man, it was really natural for me. It was like when I was little, I was really into drums immediately. I really liked it. And my dad's drummer, Richie Albright, would kind of give me lessons. And you're on the road with them when you're a little kid? Yeah, before school started, I travel with him uh all the time and then uh after you know like once school started i would just go in the summers essentially but i kind of fell in love with music very early and then i think my i don't remember why i think my parents wanted me to take

some kind of like extracurricular kind of class and i took piano at seven and i did two years of it and i hated it because of the the recital and the type of crap they'd make you learn it was like not the stuff that i wanted to that but it was good for me it was some kind of structure on how to mess with the piano and and coming from like drums and messing around drums it's a percussive instrument it was a percussive instrument. It was a lot of fun. So I instantly kind of started fooling around with making my own shit. And,

and then, you know, I loved music. I would buy records when I first got a CD player, you know, Danzig one was one of the first records I bought. Use your illusion one and two, all these records that were like so big for me.

And then like, uh, then it kind of took a turn where i think my biggest my biggest thing that kept me from starting a band was that i really wasn't very cool with many people in school and i didn't have friends that were like guitar players or like other musicians right kind of was locked in my own little world that when i heard the nine inch nails yeah i was like oh shit i was like and i was a computer nerd growing up like i'm definitely not the archetype for a country outlaw country like i don't hunt yeah i you know i program computer games hey you drink and smoke weed and play guitar and wear boots you're all

set there you go there you go that's right i do do those things they all have their reasons yeah uh no but but like once i heard that i kind of was one guy i can make all this i was like oh i can do that i can play piano i can play drums i kind of like it gave me a place to aim so resner was like you know you were like i can do this and did you do that early on yes yeah very much so like i was i'm not not saying it was i was good at it like that but i was that was where i started and i would be like programming drums and in music and making tracks and coming up with you know shitty lyrics and working and the the reason it evolved into what became star gun was because through through that i you know whether or not this is the cool way to discover bowie the way i discovered bowie was through nine snails well it's generational you know however you get there yeah and i became obsessed with him and i got

really into like i got really into glam rock uh that that era like and you know t-rex and slade and all that and then i got into like the beatles and pink floyd and psychedelics and all that and so by the time that i was moving to la i had like gotten so far into the glam rock thing and we got i i was starting to get it like it was just starting to morph into like this other more modern version of it which which is what is kind of cringy to me because where we were right before we hit that version of star gun was very very 70s you know and once we got here it kind of became a mishmash of glam and like i don't know and some riff rock and whatever it was kind of like just finding our way you know but i think it seems to me like when i look at you know and

listen to you know most of the the records that you've done is that you know you're you're you are you do find your way you know it seems like you know the others an interesting pattern of like you know after star gun you'll you'll you'll do a country record pretty, you know, you have this, an interesting pattern of like, you know, after Stargun, you'll do a country record, pretty much, you know, there are other elements where you're listening and you're like, well, that doesn't, okay. So, you know, but it's good. Right. But then all of a sudden you'll just be like way out there. Yeah. But it seems like every other record or so you go back to country and then you're like, nah, I'm bored.

I'm going to do this other thing i'm not sure what it is but it's gonna be make sure that everyone's gonna go like what the fuck happened yeah i know some guy i did an interview for our pappy and harriet show that we have coming up and this guy goes so you've confused country fans and can you confuse your fans many times so what are you gonna do next you know i'm like well thank you but no but i mean at some point for me it became there was a you know i'm there was a couple moments like where i'm sure it was like a what the fuck but then after a while of me like what the fucking with left turns i think people started to kind of expect the next what the fuck moment

to happen well my my question is so you like you know because you know you can sort of hear resner through you know a lot of the records. I think like, you know, two or three or four of the records that you've done. Like, you know, elements. Like, I can see where you sourced, you know, kind of, I'm just saying. It's still there. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, on that one, that weird one that's sort of like, that's summoning.

Phenixon or Phenixon? Oh, Phenixon. You see, that is, what that actually is is that was recorded before star gun fraud that was me programming shit at my house and my dad singing on it like that's like from 97 that's from 97 so that's actually when he was alive yeah here i thought you're like going through shit trying to process because of when it came out so that was actually during that time. So your dad was sort of being supportive?

Very supportive. He was really into it. Like anything I would play him shit, I was listening to. I remember I played him the downward spiral, and I was like, this record is shit. I just listened to that two days ago. Oh, it's such a good record. Isn't it? Oh, man.

It's still to this day in my top probably five records of all time, just how profoundly influential it was. But records of all time, just how profoundly influential it was, but at the same time, just what an experience. And I wish he would still do that. He doesn't do that.

Like, he doesn't do the, He did the one after it was good. Fragile is great. Yeah, yeah. But it was double length and all,

that's my wife's favorite, but Downward Spiral was always mine because it was like all these found sounds and samples. Dark too. It was dark.

Not a lot of drum machines it felt more like like the sample drums than he'd be using them and everything i thought that was such and this the melodies were great and the songs were great so you're sitting there with old whalen yeah playing playing playing then he does an interview and he says in the interview because he was he was a little concerned lyrically with it because i'm 15 and i'm like playing i'm like you know god is dead and all that and he and he's like but he's cool because he ain't gonna he ain't gonna fuck with that he knows like he knows what it's like to be a kid and be into what you're into but then he goes and does an interview

and he says that trent resner is a musical genius but a lyrical idiot and i was like what have you done like i mean this is my guy and you just waylon jennings just went out there and said this shit you know and i was like oh no you're ruined i know i know but he sat with you and did and worked on that record because this odd thing i couldn't like i didn't know anything that you're telling me i just looked at the dates things were released but that was really your first efforts yes ever and your dad was like there for you yes he was he's like let's do a record together and that was the one you chose we made up a band together and it was like i made all the music and he played guitar and sang a lot and i sang some of it he's just what you control it

yeah clearly yeah and so do you regret that you didn't have an opportunity to do a straight up country record with your old man i mean it would have been cool it would have been cool you know but i don't regret it because it was such a like uh uh innocently like childlike collaboration like he did it like he like he was so into it and he just wanted because he probably was it's out of his wheelhouse but he was probably excited that you were excited about something yes about music and we both you know he would play me records like dire straits and i'd play him like fucking tool and shit you know he turns you on his dire straits he liked that he always loved dire straits you covered a uh walk a life we did yeah yeah my dad did several songs by them and uh over the years and he used to he used to love them i remember when on every street came out he was like playing that one a lot and that was around the time i was like playing him like fucking

white zombie astro creep 2000 or something yeah metallica or something you know it's like but in well johnny cash and did the great cover of hurt yeah did wait i mean that must have blown you away how close were you with him at all yeah i was i was man he was actually my godfather uh but i was got i got to be i got to have some several uh kind of profound long conversations with him where it was just me and him, which are pretty cool. What did he lay on you? Interesting stuff. I remember a conversation where he... I don't think he understood me quite at this point.

I'm not doing that critically. He was always very kind, but I remember we had this long conversation, and he was asking me about computers. I, at the time, was very into them, as I still am today, and he was asking about computers. And I, at the time, was very into them, as I still am today, and the very early burgeoning Internet. And I was like, it was even before that. It was when I modem stuff I was doing. But he was like, you know, that's escapism.

Like, sometimes you have to get out, you have to face reality. And I get the message that he was saying. I was like, man, not really. This is where i live and the rest of the world's gonna live here too in 30 years you know uh but no i mean i got what he i got what he meant though he had like several i think he's turning out to be right i think he's turning out to you i think he saw facebook somewhere in there he had a vision he had a vision soon everyone will think they're connected but they'll really be isolated yeah he knew he knew yeah man but like uh you know just just conversations like that and he always was kind of like a wealth of no musical conversations really it was always kind of like

yeah life lessons philosophical yeah and uh so your dad stayed close to him too through yeah yeah they would they were really funny man because they would have moments where they didn't talk for periods of time. Because they were very similar. They both picked cotton. They both grew up listening to the Grand Ole Opry. They both had this very similar raising. And I think that's why when they met, they felt a certain kinship that was different

than Willie's. Because Willie and my dad had very, very different backgrounds. And Willie was like a jazz dude and yeah and like uh like a big songwriter for others yeah yeah did your dad do much of that not really he didn't even really write a shitload of songs towards the end of his life he did but it would be like record to record there'd be one or two three songs maybe that he wrote those early records is so like i could see how there was sort of like him and johnny cash would sort of understand each other there was a sure you know they it felt like you know these guys were you know sort of powerful they lived together so it was like they did they had a period of time in nashville where they both had apartments

that were like they shared an apartment and then my dad's band had an apartment i think some of johnny's guys had an apartment all in this one complex oh wow, wow. And they would hide their drug use from each other. It's funny because they were both pill guys. Yeah. It's good that they did because some of them would have been pissed off. We're working on a Wayland movie, and there's a script that we have done, and this guy has a great scene in it where they both go into the shitter, and they both go in the bathroom and and and pop their

pills and flush the toilet at the same time like not to let the other person know but they're both doing the same thing you know it'd be kind of oh so they go way back so they would they would have spats occasionally yeah they would occasionally have spats it would usually be because like either one person like it'd be over random stuff like like johnny would be like he's sober but then he got on some pain pills one time. And my dad's mad because he's not really sober. But he's like, but I'm in pain. And like they'd have this kind of not talk for two months or whatever.

And then they, you know, then they make up. So they're like a married couple. Totally. Like the odd couple. That's hilarious. So, okay. So, you know, you make this, you do that thing with your dad. But when you come out here, you got your heroes in place.

I just find it interesting that because of the music that you liked and because you're a musician, that you were sort of able at the beginning to do what you wanted to do and do it well, but then at some point after Stargun, I mean, you snap back and that first country records or put the o back in country is a country record right i mean like full-on right right right it had some some psychedelic hard rock moments in it but we but definitely i definitely like got to a place where like the star gun thing lasted too long i love those guys and everything but yeah i moved here with one band it which which was very much the more 70s glam thing right and like a couple members

we kind of like splintered and another guy came in and we were kind of scrambling to keep the band alive and we kept alive for a couple more yeah years and we got like a little following in town and stuff but we thought we were going to have a moment with a record label tom morello produced like an ep that was going to come out and it was like we had all this stuff kind of going on but i could already tell and i didn't have the experience yet to know that it was just it was kind of an empty well that i was going to with this it just wasn't the right right thing for me to be excited about yeah and so when when we broke up the band it was kind of like a lot of factors resulted in the breakup of the band and then i uh i kind of just went back my dad had just died i'd been listening to a lot of stuff that he's influenced by i'd really took a huge dive into hank jr's

uh catalog because i liked certain records but i hadn't really explored his catalog and i just was like there was so much of that that i related to but i didn't want explored his catalog and i just was like there was so much of that that i related to but i didn't want to i didn't want to just go do a straight country record like to me musically country music sucked so yeah to me it was like like why can't a country record sound sound cool and like been the problem for for people of your ilk for years you're right yeah man so it was like the original country but i don't like this new country yeah exactly what i mean even even like not being able to like kind of pull in elements of like hard rock and modern rock and and you know i'm not i don't mean like fucking

system of down but you know like you do that on all the records there's there's definitely under there there's always something just why not you know and that's that's the music that i listen to so to me it would it would be a disservice to like just deny like it's weird you you run into a lot of guys like i've read interviews like kenny chesty people i don't even really know their music but they'll they'll say like man when i was little all i did was listen to you know bob seger and you're like why doesn't your record sound like fucking bob seger then like shouldn't you but didn't they integrate that eventually i mean didn't sort of like it seemed like there was a period there where there was a shift and there was some like a little bit of hip-hop coming in there was a little bit you know and garth brooks sort of

amped shit up a bit you know and he was taking certain chances but for sure i mean every generation has had that i mean i guess my dad kind of you know brought the buddy holly side of stuff into it and hank junior wasn't he a cricket brothers yeah yeah i just remembered that he was he was he was he was supposed to be on that plane you know which is just crazy he actually forget that so he played guitar with buddy bass bass bass and he had just never even played bass buddy had let the crickets go really is what happened yeah like they were was going to go. I think he had intended to move to New York, and then he was going to London to record. Yeah.

So he put together a new band, and my dad was in that, and they did that winter dance hall tour. And then they were going to go, then go. So the plane was too full? It was Buddy Holly's plane chartered for him and his band. Yeah. And it was like freezing outside. And they were going to fly ahead just to do laundry because they didn't have anywhere to do it. Yeah.

And the bus heating had broken down. So the Big Bopper asked my dad if he could have his seat on the plane, if my dad would ride the bus. My dad was like 19. He's like, fine, no problem. And then Richie Valens flipped a coin with Tommy Alsup for his position on the plane if my dad would ride the bus my dad was like 19 he's like fine no problem and then uh richie valens flipped a coin with tommy alsup for his his position on the plane oh my god that's the story huh that's the story and so then as as they were going my dad buddy says i hope your old bus breaks down you freeze to death my dad goes i hope your plane crashes no he did and he's he he validates that story yes Yes. Oh, yeah. It haunted him for a very long time.

Oh. Until a guy basically told him, can you bring him back? And he said, no. And he goes, then you couldn't have killed him. You know what I mean? Right. Oh, that's interesting. I've never heard that before.

That's kind of powerful. Yeah, it's pretty wild. It really devastated him. At first, he gave up on music, and he kind of lost all hope. And the way it all kind of came back around and it took him a while just to get get the feeling back because this buddy holly was his pro like he was his protege like he was taking him to new york for the first time and he's like showing him how to play bass and teaching him all about music and my dad just like holy shit i found

this dude who's like everything to me and it's like bam gone you know so young right there's only what there's probably only about 40 songs right there buddy holly yeah maybe maybe maybe that much it's so many great like i don't you know it's sort of incomprehensible it is some of that buddy holly stuff apparently he was just he was such a maverick with that like the way that his approach to everything was i mean he was he was a straight hillbilly like you know as a guy and here here out of nowhere my dad's sitting there working on a radio station and kind of the way he met him and uh he's just all of a sudden he's this dude he's got these glasses and he's got these moves and

it's like pop but it's like rock and roll like he one thing he told my dad he's like don't tell anybody your country or that you're rock just tell them your pop because you got room to wiggle then you can go either way with it you know and he had all these like kind of buddy holly isms yeah tell my dad and and like uh you know always leave them one wanting more don't play too long like right all this kind of stuff uh yeah but i mean for someone to be that profound and different at that time without any kind of media to craft your thing after. I mean, it's like literally everyone was pretty isolated. Yeah. Like the radio.

And there's a lot of variety to the songs too, man. My dad loved them. So we got piped in that collection. Yeah. When I was a kid in the A track in the car, it was just like all Buddy Holly music. So cool, man. The guitar parts and stuff crazy man

even to this day like all the Sonny Curtis the da da da da da da da da you're like what are you doing how's he doing that it's so crazy even the simple rhythms

are tricky yeah yeah I forgot I knew that your dad was part I'm glad we that came up so

but so okay so you're you're frustrated with where country's at you tap into Hank Jr. and you do that first record and you mix it up a little bit yeah and how does that change your life it's man you know i did previous to it coming out it really was i mean we were off the radar except for in

this town it's like in la yeah so like and at that time it's you and who's who are the other bands it was i put together a band oh you mean oh yeah who's around with star gun oh i'm like well during that time i mean there were there were bands like i can barely even remember half of them but i mean like we rehearsed in that there was a rehearsal hall on hollywood and vine yeah where like it was every like lincoln park had just broken out of that rehearsal hall and like maroon five and these kind of bands like that okay yeah so at the time like audio slave tom was a had been a early on supporter of the band and he that was blowing up a lot of big bands but there weren't like there was no scene of like anymore it was already done no then there was a kind of country thing that was happening they had the king king they had this thing called westbound down they would do and there was like icy hawks in la and

there was like this these down at the molly malone's they had these graham parson nights so there was like kind of a lot of that stuff happening in la okay yeah which was kind of cool and i had just gone through at the same time like a uh graham phase i was like very in god you know i had not done that discovery yet so i'd gone through all his records when you're out here before before hank jr before before the hank jr period yeah i'd gone through that and what would you say about like graham like you know having having the heads you have and coming for you come from what you what made him so unique man he was so unique because he was literally a like a rich kid from florida who was like i want to do country and came to la for whatever reason

and connect with the birds and all that like his story is so unique because it did it bypassed nashville altogether it had so many elements uh that that later in you know the dead and like of course like chris hillman and the birds and the stones like all the tie-ins of country into rock and roll yeah the eagles yeah like well there was a dude before graham named steve young that came here and he was kind of the first he came from alabama he wrote like seven bridges road that the eagles did he wrote lonesome on your mean that my dad did he did montgomery in the rain that hank jr did these great songs um he came here first before graham and he kind of was the first dude who started like

seeding los angeles and hollywood with a lot of this uh because he's from montgomery so it was a lot of this hank williams yeah yeah it was he was kind of rolling around i have his record he's great great record he's great he has got tons of great records that are out there and i got to be friends with him before he died and he sent me his entire catalog sometime i gotta i have like a hard drive and if you're if you're into him i'll give you the whole thing it's pretty cool but so that's so okay so then graham was kind of like the next guy right so it was like but steve kind of sowed some seeds that kind of led to like like a lot of the the glenn campbell and the wrecking crew shit that was happening with like tanya tucker and all that like it all kind of inner and you know of course merle and and buck

and all that kind of coming down but but grant was like really unique because he was a rock dude who was obsessed with country and he was at the end of the day in a weird way he probably would be flipping in his grave but he was still kind of like this rock and roll dude to the end right who just sang country all the time yeah you know and that was like such a um but the music you know like you listen to the music like this is what i i never can understand because even your new record shooter with you know with dave cobb is that yeah again because he does uh some sturgill stuff like he's a guy. And he did the first five of mine, too. Yeah, but he's clearly evolved as a producer. There's some sort of reverence for that classic country production, right?

Yes, for sure. That goes way back to the 60s and 70s, right? Yes, for sure. That's the best era of that and rock in a lot of ways. Sure. But the thing that always strikes me is that, you know, when you listen to these guys that were sort of pivotal in the new country back then, like Graham and the Birds and stuff,

it's like it just sounds like country to me. So I can't, like the nuance, you know, the songwriting I get, but it's not like they're swinging. They're not like making the beat any different. They still swing a lot of them. And it's not sort of like wow this is really different that's why i never understood the struggle between what maybe it's because i don't live in it this idea that this is mainstream country and this is grand

parsons like why the fuck couldn't grand parsons play with buck owens it could have happened absolutely could have happened i don't know about their struggle then. Yeah. Because like, it was a little, quite a bit different. But I think that, I mean, nowadays the struggle between mainstream and all that is, is like, it's a weird,

it's almost two different things. I don't even like pay attention to really mainstream country. I don't really know anyone who does. And I couldn't really name anything that's on the radio. I've, I could kind of identify some of these guys, but dude, it is a operation and

these people walk in with nothing except for a voice and they are from the minute they enter that place to the minute they get out it's a machine it is a machine you know and it's like graham parsons uh you know who knows about buck buck owens because we're talking about california california is pretty unique but that same machine has been in place in nashville right and it's been perfected because like the the the the the sort of importance of the songwriter in nashville right like that like there was a the everyone would gravitate like you know that's not like that in new york and not really in la i don't think but literally nashville is like this is where songwriters come to try to deliver the goods to the voices you had like shell silverstein and people like that back

then right but like there's just like but the it seems like the model was always like we got a front man let's fill his mouth with something so they must so true so they must just have perfected the machine they must have just like stacks of songs it's crazy how those sessions work i've never done it myself but i have lots of friends that do it and they i mean they literally have like 10 you know 10 right there's do you know neil casale and that plays guitar he played in the ryan adams and the cardinals but now yeah now he plays with chris robinson brother anyway great player but he says you know he says i got a co on that like someone will say like i got a co on that like for the little co-write you know and all these sessions when in which the all day just write like whatever like let's write a song about a hammer and a dice yeah you know and they'll

write that and then right and then they'll like somehow and there's just a system there's like basically there must be a template that's about five or six songs a couple of slow country right and then there's about three or four different grooves of the fast country right and they always mimic what's a hit because that's what's a hit now. That's right. It's like a slow evolution. So it all sounds the same-ish. Right. And guys like Graham were not thinking of that

at the time and the greats of all this are not thinking about that. No, of course not. In any genre though, I mean, you look at 80s hair metal and you look at like

what became the processing plant of Sunset Boulevard where it would just be like band after band after band after band that sounded just like Van Halen or just like Def Leppard until you get like a GNR

who's irreverent about it. I guess the big switch was that you really, that became your center. To some degree. That's a good way of putting it. The thing about that was that we had the success from this one song,

Fourth of July, on that record. And I thought, we had already recorded our second record. And our second record was pushing the boundaries. It was more rock. It was more psychedelic. Well, no, I hear that. So that's so weird, because I'm looking at these releases, and I'm listening to them in sequence,

because Electric Rodeo definitely had more elements of rock in it. Yes. And I was like, how did he go? I thought it was an evolution. To me, it was like the first one had some elements of that, but yes and i was like how did he go like i wanted i thought it was an evolution to me it was like the first one had some elements of that but it was very so it was supposed to be like radio first no no but that was first but but it was like the the rock and the country elements were a bit separated on that record and i thought with electric rodeo i said here we're going to blend it all into one sound yeah but but we were immediately rejected for that record and that was

that began my lesson about because you all of a sudden just birthed all these new country fans right and then all of a sudden yeah and it was still in my opinion it came out as a country record it was always a country it's still country no matter electric road to some degree yeah but it was just like we wanted to push the boundary a little further on the sound and like see because you know just why does it have to all be like Lynyrd Skynyrd knockoffs? Why can't you be like pulling from Zappa in a country record or whatever? You can't answer that question? Yeah.

Because there's the guys who are used to the sick songs going, what's he doing in my head? No, I know. What's he doing in my head? We're trying to expand your head, man. We're trying to get you to wake up and have some fucking taste. You know, it's like, but no. Do they comment they comment do people did people come up to you and go no what are you doing not that one i'll tell you the one that the way they got me was the black ribbons that was the concept record yeah it was steven king yeah yeah like there was that was when i

started that was where they had it that was where they're like look we liked a couple songs on those shitty records yeah what the fuck is this that's exactly what happened and then like youtube i remember youtube comment that said you are officially banned from texas texas thank you thank you wow you know and i mean that way we should say like i always always gonna cause trouble there's i love texas there's some good parts of texas oh i love texas yeah yeah so that was it but black ribbon was it yeah that was that was the that was the actual quote on youtube but yeah i mean that was the one where they first had that reaction but now like in retrospect that record is the one that's probably given me the

most back and it has been the one that is in my opinion last the longest with the fans like people really woke up to the record but it took them a minute because they weren't ready for it but it was like it's a story that was the exciting part about it, right? It's exciting to go do something and say, this is going to be weird. And it's one thing to like have a crazy idea, but not be able to follow it,

carry it out. And I, and I felt like me and Dave Cobb were able to carry that record out. And it was like, when we did that, I was like, okay, now here's something I'm fucking proud of.

We really fucking did something weird here. Yeah. You know? And I knew that the reaction would be, be crazy but at the same time like i knew that over it's a long game i'm not in it i'm not in it for a short thing so and also you know as a creative person as an artist if you don't take chances then you know you're just gonna be a shell of yourself you know you just end up you know wandering around getting on stage and and and going through the motions yeah and that's i don't i want to do that i would rather quit so but the

concept record it's interesting because they're you know obviously there's been concept records before and and you know and willie did that one uh spirit or redhead a stranger oh that one too yeah i mean which is sort of a story it's fantastic it is you know but i don't know that that was the most successful record for him outside of the hit no i don't think about outside from yeah but it's often regarded as the best country album of all time is it yeah it's often the number one on the list of all the preacher so yeah i love that it's great man and then you know phases and stages all a bunch of his records were concept records yeah it's like uh so what what led to the partnership with stephen king i mean how well i dreamed up this record and i had this dj part in it and at first i was going to reach out to art bell and i did reach out to art bell about it

and then i i second guessed the decision because i thought man people are going to think this is art bell i loved art bell growing up sure and i And I wanted somebody who was a little different, you know, people didn't know, and his voice. And there was a, that's funny, I have that book about apocalypse culture, too. But anyway. It's a great book. The first one's better. I don't have the first one. Well, I mean, it's a lot of the same stuff, but they added some stuff, but they also took out a couple.

Ooh. The second one. Ooh. I'm going to have to go to that. It's hard to find that first one oh man uh anyway uh so where that happened was i mean i've been a stephen king fan since i was really young yeah and uh i was reading he he wrote about me in first in his ew column he used to do in the back of ew about his favorite like country songs or something and 4th of July was on there

oh that's nice and then he wrote my name it's a good feeling isn't it yeah when you love you have reverence for somebody

and all of a sudden you realize hey they know my shit crazy it's crazy when that happens especially when they turn out to be

such amazing people Manson was like that when we became friends but so I talked to him he was a little loopy I heard him he had his little

Fuji bottle love it but so Stephen talked to him he was a little loopy i heard him he had his little fiji bottle yeah i love it um but uh so stephen king then he wrote my name in a book yeah it was in a licey story just really quickly and he it was my name was right next to fucking big and rich too jesus christ but anyway um so he wrote so i was like okay the dude i'm on his radar so i like wrote i was doing a gun doing interview for some record I was doing with EW. And I said, I'll do it, but will you pass this letter to Stephen King? Because I tried to reach him and I couldn't find any way to reach him. So I wrote an email. And that afternoon, he got back to me.

And he was like, I'm too busy to do this, but if you hound me, maybe it'll get done. And so I just sent him the ideas that went along. And then like one day we had a lot of emails back and forth. I never met him. I've never talked to him on the phone. And one day it just showed up in my house done. And I was like, holy shit. Yeah.

He did it. He did it. That's great. So we put it in there and, and, and we've kind of remained friends, like, but only via email and stuff. But now I'm working on a new project that he's involved in. So maybe I'll get to meet him. That's wild. great so we put it in there and and and we've kind of remained friends like but only via email and stuff but now i'm working on a new project that he's involved in so maybe i'll get to me that's wild and the album is i i imagine some of the fans are sort of like it is a sort of a political record i mean it is in a way i was not aiming to make a political record it to me it was

more of like a you know i would i had become into, like, all of these, like, writers and conspiracy writers and these kind of theories. I had heard that David Icke dude on, like, on Coast to Coast AM with his reptiles thing. Sure, yeah. And I was like, wow, this guy's out there. Yeah. And I was like, but just conceptually, just this world of insanity. Yeah. I started looking up all, know manly p hall and

mason people and sure all these other people and reading about go ahead and say it the jews jesus christ guy i know what you're saying no no but like i just kind of was like reading all this shit and i was i the conspiracy world was just fascinating sure i know i was there too i've been there yeah i know what you're saying and so like uh i uh you know i when i was doing the record unfortunately now it's a dominant cultural dialogue for people who want to erase the truth but it went early on it was sort of interesting yeah well i mean it was very interesting it's it's also seems like a uh you know it was a during that time i'm just i mean it was god that was it's 2008 so it was like it was like the end of the george bush or thing was when

we were doing the record and when obama happened like for me i'm not i've never taken a political stance and i never will because i think there's so many it's a little it's a little rough man like it was weird. I had this weird thing where I was listening to NPR and they were interviewing Loretta Lynn, you know, who was just sort of like, Trump's going to save us. And I'm like, oh, why you got to tell me? You don't have to talk about it.

I want to love you, you know? Right, right. I mean, you know, that's it. So, but when that Bush thing was happening, everybody, it was insanity. And then, like, the housing crisis happened. Yeah. And then Obama's won, and it's all going to happen.

And it was all so weird. Everything was so fucking weird and negative. And there was all this kind of- From where you were living. Yeah. Well, no, from here. I mean, what am I supposed to say? I was like overcome with hope

like no i was like there was nothing everything everything seemed insane like when the housing crisis hit especially no absolutely right yeah everybody was like where's bush yeah where'd he go you know on the way out those guys just sort of like and we're taking all the money yeah yeah that's exactly what happened and so like it was like i didn't know where we were and so it was like i just kind of made up this this concept of this fictional van that was like, I didn't know where we were. And so it was like, I just kind of made up this, this concept of this fictional band that was like, you know, they were going to shut off the airwaves and there wasn't going to be a voice anymore. And it was like, this fictional band was kind of the fucky band for this guy to play on

his last night. And, you know, the DJ that he created. Yeah. I think it's ballsy, man. Cause like the way you talk about it, it was a genuine reaction to the confusion and fear and anger or whatever you were feeling there's so much fear-mongering going on and you're trying to reach right and also trying to reach some sort of you know trying to process it so you process it with this weird concept record right which dave cobb produced as well yeah it's

interesting your history with him because like your Family Man's a country record you deal with themes. I mean you have a family you've been through a heartbreak you've been through kind of a divorce you've got a couple of kids. I mean like you know

that's the other thing about looking at country where it's sort of like I know these stories. That's right. Do these guys live these stories or are they just like

you know what are we going to write about today? You know like I'm sad. But it seemed like some of the stuff on that record was you trying to reckon with the fact that you're this guy that has this responsibility. And you try to do the best you can, but you're not necessarily making the grade. That's right.

And then the other life is kind of when it all goes, you know. It goes bad. It goes bad. And then, you know, figuring it out. I mean, yeah yeah it's very much traceable journey of reality but but are you do you get along with her the act yeah i have to you got two kids yeah we do we do great i mean like what's her name again dray dray de mateo yeah yeah the actress she's great yeah she like you know we they go to kid they go yeah they go

to school with parents who fucking hate each other that are either married or not married anymore. Oh, it's the worst. So it's like we're able to definitely get through it. And her dude is one of my favorite, Dre's dude, Michael Devon, who's in Whitesnake. Oh, yeah. I've used him on some records that I've produced and stuff. I love that guy. And then, like, you know, Misty, my wife, we all get along really well.

Oh, that's great. So it's like it's a very lucky situation for the kids. You know, they get to see, like, people people that are actually happy and then you can do it like you know it's a really a matter of acceptance and and getting over whoever feels fucked off you know moving through that that's right that's right and and you know moving that's a good way of putting it it's not it's not even moving beyond it around it's right through it yeah i mean you know and like because like because no matter what as you get older you realize that that that you know everything that you thought was uh you know just uh you know it was never going to be different right it doesn't fucking matter anymore in some ways you're like oh god yeah oh dude totally i i mean because when

you're you know you're 20 something years old it's like everything has such profound meaning and impact and everything is so big and how do i feel today you know and it's like and i'm fucking 40 now and i'm like god damn leave me alone you know i'm just like i want everyone to leave me alone yeah yeah yeah i'm just trying to i guess the price is right man yeah right i don't give a fuck i finally reached the freedom to not give a fuck about a lot of stuff, and I just want to sit here and do this. Yeah, that's right, man. That's right.

But that record was a very odd record. How do you say it? How come I can't pronounce it? Countach? I would never have said that right. It's like a Lamborghini Countach. Okay, fine. Because Giorgio's Italian.

Giorgio Moroder? Yep. And he was like, I learned this stuff yesterday. Oh, no, dude. Giorgio Moroder? Yep. And he was like, I learned this stuff yesterday. Oh, no, dude, Giorgio Moroder, you know who he is. No, I know his songs, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But what I'm trying to figure out is like, what is Shooter Jennings sitting there thinking like,

you know, it's time for me to do an homage. Okay, the George record. All right, I'll tell you how this kind of started. Years before, a guy had asked me to write some songs for George Jones' final record. Yeah. tell you how this kind of started years before a guy had asked me to write some songs for george jones final record yeah but so i wrote these two songs send them to the dude he's like it's great let's see what the possum says well that dude turned out to be completely full of shit he wasn't doing a record on george jones and i had just written two songs and send this dude so i

was like was all the ones that ended up on the tribute yeah so, so I said, I'm going to put those two songs out. And at the time, I had gone down this rabbit hole of Giorgio Moroder. And it kind of started with that Daft Punk record, Random Access Memories. But I just didn't realize how much of the music

that I grew up in that this one guy was responsible for. I just kind of assumed it was the sound of the 80s. It was a thing. So when I kind of went down that rabbit hole and started listening to all these solo records he has i just became kind of obsessed with it and this company was really into the idea i was going to put out those two george jones songs and maybe do a couple others they were really into the idea of

me doing it i was very defiant about just just doing a george jones thing so my idea was i'm gonna do george and georgio and was going to be these kind of two pieces. Yeah. Which is what I ended up doing. And I was like, but I, like for the George one, I used a lot of the equipment

that Giorgio used on his records. And for the Giorgio one, I used like live fiddle and instruments that George used and kind of mixed the whole thing up. But like,

tell people like who, like Giorgio is. Okay. What were the songs? Everyone knows that he defined disco by producing all that stuff, but he was really the first person

to sync Moog synthesizers with a click and get them all talking. Of course, he did The NeverEnding Story, and he did the Top Gun theme song, and I Wanted the Dangerous. Lots of movies and TV shows. I was really infatuated with the lyrics and the musical, especially the musical arrangements. And then Hunter S. Thompson always said that when he was younger, he would retype Ernest

Hemingway novels. Yeah. And doing this Giorgio record was kind of like that, because I became intimately aware of these really weird arrangements, like The NeverEnding Story. That song, just a kid's theme song from a movie that i saw when i was a kid or whatever but it's really weird and intricate and the chord changes and the rhythms and yeah but i found some early shit of his where it was not electronic at all it was kind of country and weird like that song isn't very far from what his arrangement was, which was really strange.

So it was like he had a really peculiar kind of journey musically that just the more I looked, the more and more I loved it, and the more and more I wanted to carry this record out. And to me, it was one of those kind of records where a lot of people are like, what the fuck? But a lot of people ended up really loving it. Like it, it, in the press,

it was received really well. So it's like, you know, it kind of opened a lot of doors, like that record and black ribbons have opened more doors for me to cool collaborations and cool friendships, as well as like people coming out of the woodwork that would never have taken note of my music or be like,

say like a good example is like Kurt sutter from sons of anarchy became like a really cool collaborator for me because he liked black ribbons and he started putting songs from it in the show and like that's how i met manson because he heard those and liked them wow you know and so all these kind of weird little avenues would happen and and kuntosh has kind of brought a lot of people that way. And so it seems like the more outlandish and kind of daring things that I do, the more they kind of create these trees of new stuff for me to get into. And also different types of creative people. That's right. That's right.

Then this new record, which you just called Shooter. Yeah. It's a great country record. But I mean, it's like the most country record you've done that's right there's it's the only one where i feel like i didn't have some acts to grind with like i i'm you know musically like trying to prove i still had this other elements i yeah i really went in and was like and like let me ask you about dave cobb because like you know he did wheeler walker he does uh sturgill who i've talked to who's that other guy

who's that guy that sturgill played with on SNL? Chris Stapleton. Chris Stapleton? He's great, right? Great. Great guy, too. But so, like, Cobb, it seems to me that at one time, you know, the collaboration, you know, he could sort of do what you wanted him to do.

Like, you know, he understood what you wanted, then he'd do it. But now it seems that Cobb has a very defined sound for himself. He does. He does. But I don't feel like that with... Like, he and I still have the exact same relationship that we did before you just happen to want to do it our conversation our phone conversation was

let's cut a hang junior record like we were like let's go full country the whole way and not even you know even though there's stuff on there that's that kind of gets out there from country but it's like our intention was to to cut it just a through and through enjoyable not heavy yeah i loved it you know country record thank you man well we yeah we set out to do that and we had just done the brandy record which was pretty eclectic and had a lot of different angles and we were both working really heavily on on the arrangements and and everything so which one's that it's called by the way i forgive you she just put out this year and you were working you produced it me and dave co-produced oh that's great so that was kind of that's what kind of got us working together again uh and that was her bringing us in together she

she wrote she wrote me she goes i want you to work on my new record and then like two days later she goes like do you know dave cobb and i was like yeah i know dave have you done a couple records man you know how old is he your age he's uh about three years older than me so now like what is the nature of your your fan base i mean are they do you get people that liked your dad do you get real country people i mean totally i mean it's across the board and it has changed over the years because you know there was a there was a big there was a big gap between my dad and myself like as far as the fans went like there'd either be fans that were like young people who like my music or there'd be like older people who like my dad's music but now that all has kind of like mixed and it's kind of a mixed bag you know but like i've been on the road with my band for about two years uh before that i did three years with my dad's old band like there

was a period of time in which i'd done the family man the other life that was the new york city band that i'd put together and it was getting to where like it was too expensive to tour i wasn't making enough in the in the uh guarantees to afford like a bus and it was started it was kind of a struggle at this one point it's probably uh 2000 and mid 2012 or something. And, the other life hadn't even come out yet. And I was already financially in this position. It was a little shaky.

And my old manager, the guy who came in, John Hensley, I was talking about, he had this idea. I, I played this one show with the way more as outlaws, which is really my dad's old man.

Yeah. And I played this one show and he's like, dude, you should take this on the road. I road because they have a vehicle they travel in. Me, you and a merch person, which is his girlfriend at the time. We'll just drive everywhere they go. You don't have to sever contracts. You get paid your bit.

Your only expenses to is two hotel rooms and a car. And we did that for like three years and it saved me. And it like got everything back up. It got my guarantees back up because the shows were doing well with them and i was able to get back in a place to get on my feet you know and but at the same time to answer your question you were you were kind of like servicing i mean even they were playing mostly broke or what i was pretty i wasn't broke i mean i'm i didn't have to like move out of my house right but i mean it was around the time that i went through like the split ups like getting on my feet and at the same time it was just that the my the i had gone through a

couple bad decisions with managers and with booking agents and they'd gotten to where i was making this such a low amount per show right that it was just it was like a vacuum you know like like the show would be low the turnout would be low then we get'd get lower. And then I'm trying to maintain a full band and a bus and all this. So it kind of gave me a point to start in which there was a story behind the package. It was different because it was my dad's old band. And they would come out and do a whole set of like Wayland shit. And then I would come out and they'd do my stuff and I'd do some Wayland songs. But it would allow me to kind of duck out of big cities do casinos do like

gigs like in small towns yeah sell out and do things and and it built my guarantee up it built their guarantee up it made it where we made money and we're able to kind of save and get the keep the label going and i was able to to do it again where we could go on the road and get a bus and build that up and and now we're like now the engine is rolling great and we're out on the road nonstop and we got the new record and everything. So it kind of was like, my point there was that there was a point in time, I think when I was younger, when I was like resentful of the Wayland Factory,

even though I was happy about it, I was happy that people would come, but it was very hard to differentiate. Like just some guy on the street who makes a career and has songs he knows that the people are showing up at his show are there because they like his music there's no other reason right but for me there was like the wayland reason so it's hard to know it's hard to trust your fans like why are you here but after a certain point did you just accept it and embrace

it i think that the doing the tour at the way more i mean to some degree yes and and i also ran off a bunch of them with with black ribbons so that was kind of a good thing in a way yeah the wrong folks i shouldn't say the wrong way you know i'm saying the people were just looking for me to be waylon jr uh definitely were like okay i'm gonna step out of here for a while yes um they're coming back with this record they're coming back they came back even afterwards you know but uh but then doing the way more's tour it was really in a way like saying like look i'm you know even though i'm they're playing my shit i'm like i was i was giving back to that crew too and i think that that people felt it kind of like healed some

things with that and it became an integration of the people instead of there just being the wayland people in the shooter be like they were now like us the same group and it's like so now they're all willing to kind of follow me, and they know I'm not just throwing my middle finger up in my dad's legacy, in their opinion. Oh, good. Right, right. That kind of stuff.

So it kind of solved a lot of things in a weird way. And it was great to be on the road with my dad's old drummer, Richie, who was the fucking shit, and all those guys. It was so cool to have a band with them for three years. Oh, yeah, I bet. I bet. And kind i bet kind of being that was a very weird thing you know it's funny because like because your dad was so supportive and and he was who he was but but he was also you guys had a great relationship but the only way you really could rebel because he was a decent guy was to you know to do it musically yeah right like you know you you know in order for you to sort of define

yourself you had to you know not not say fuck you dad but say like well i'm i can i'm gonna do this other thing yeah which is what la did i was completely oblivious to by the time that i that first record came out i had not even been thinking about really but i mean i he died and i'm thinking about him that way but i mean it's like the there what didn't feel like i was being defiant i feel like i was just oh i think i might have found my way i've been here in la long enough and i think i might have figured out my sound you know and it like so that's what it kind of felt like but then once it came out i think we kind of were touching on this before but once that came out that's when people started being like you're not as good as your dad yeah

he'd be rolling over his grave and you're're just like, okay, fuck you people. Fuck all of you. Find me in LA. I dare you. But this one is like, it's a nice testament to, like, I think who you are in terms of accepting, you know, that this, it's clearly something you love. I mean, the country music.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and it's also just uh you know it's sort of uh you know it feels like you've worked through a lot of shit yeah that's i don't i don't i don't feel i i feel that there will be another weird record in your future yeah definitely i gotta keep making left turns until i go in a circle you know now what do you think about your father's influence in general like because i know there was like very very specifically people said sturgill sounded like your old man yeah i used to say yeah i used to say that before because i i introduced him and dave cobb and i like you introduced sturgill simpson yeah and sturgill a guy named blake judd introduced me to sturgill's music he

had a band called sunday valley before and uh and it was like a kind of hard rock band a lot of days but it kind of like star gun was i i understand like he he doesn't allow that shit online even though i think that sunday valley had some great stuff and now he's doing some shit like you in a in a sense like he'll rip out that guitar and you're like that's not country yeah yeah totally he wins the country grammy for his least country record it's like but uh which is why i love why he's mixing it up but but like when i first heard him there were moments where i was like man he really sounds like early like when my dad it's almost like the in the 70s this is a really weird way of putting it but this

is the best way i can describe it was in the 70s when my dad would do harmonies on his own vocals he would sing a little higher yeah that he's sturgill sounded just like that it was like there was a thing where i was like wow you know that's really cool and a really cool voice you know and and it was awesome to watch him kind of go through these different phases as well and he does the same kind of thing like and like when he went left and he did the experimental record i was like i'm going real country then i'm going he did that i'm going i'm going all the way over here you know what I mean? Let's see what happens next.

Yeah, yeah. But you guys get along. Your move. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Sturgill. We hang out a lot. Last time he came through town for like a day, we went to El Compadre and hung out.

And he's a great dude. Good, man. Yeah. Well, it's a great record. It was certainly, I'm glad we finally got to meet and talk. It was great to hang out, man. Yeah, man. Thank you for having me

I definitely I love the podcast so it's cool to be in here and finally be on it and then I gotta thank Jeff Tate especially because

he was originally like trying to hook us up I know I'm sorry I dropped the ball on that because I went through my emails and I'm like

oh that was like two years ago dude it's okay it's alright man we did it man well yeah we're here I had something to promote this time

oh yeah it worked out yeah thanks man of course man thank you Okay, it's all right, man. We did it, man. I had something to promote this time. Oh, yeah, it worked out. Yeah. Thanks, man. Of course, man. Thank you. All right, that was Shooter Jennings. Rob Riggle before him. Fun times, fun talks.

I hope nothing happened in between me recording this and you hearing it that needed to be addressed or that left it impossible for anyone to hear this I'm okay you okay? I'm alright I'm gonna have some pistachios

Boomer lives! lives. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.