WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 944 - Tanya Donnelly / Jason Bateman

Episode Date: August 22, 2018

A lot has changed in the 30 years since Marc and Tanya Donnelly worked together at a luncheonette in Boston. Tanya saw her emerging music career take off in the early '90s, thanks to her bands Throwing Muses, The Breeders and Belly. Now in the midst of a Belly reunion with tour dates and a new album, Tanya tells Marc how things evolved in the more than two decades since. Also, Jason Bateman returns to talk about the second season of Ozark on the heels of Marc binge-watching season one. This episode is sponsored by The Jim Jefferies Show Podcast, the Around The NFL Podcast, Starbucks Doubleshot, and SimpliSafe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking

ears what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf i'm uh i'm i'm in a remote location i'm on a remote not really i'm in chicago as i was on monday i'm still here though uh i was speculating on monday for those of you who follow week to week and listen to me yammer on here at the beginning, I speculated on Monday because I recorded it Sunday before I'd done my show at the Thalia Hall here in Chicago. And I speculated pretty good. It went not pretty good, actually. It went great. I'd never been to the venue. It was an amazing venue. It's in sort of a Latino part of town, so I was able to kind of show up in the neighborhood about an hour before and get some pollo, like grilled pollo, some grilled chicken.

It was really good. I mean, I just sat there alone with a half a grilled chicken, some guac, some salsas, and my little bag, and my notes, and processed. Then I walked around the corner and did the show. My opening act, local comedian, Chelsea Hood, great job, did a great job. And then Jimmy O. Yang. I don't know if I told you on Sunday, but I ran into him here at the hotel, and I just had him on the podcast, don't know if I told you on Sunday, but I ran into him here at the hotel and I just had him on the podcast and he was in town. He literally stepped into the elevator, but I thought, why not have him on the show? Do a few minutes. It was a good time. It was actually fun. It was fun to sort of

have that moment where you're like, Hey, another comic, there's a guy I know and he's got the goods. So I gave him a guest spot. So Chelsea Hood did a beautiful opening set. And then they brought on the surprise guest from Silicon Valley in the Crazy Rich Asians movie. Number one movie in the country. Jimmy O. Yang laid it down for seven minutes, got some good laughs, and I went up. And I ended up doing like an hour and 45.

You know who else was there? Andre Royo, who's also been on my show. I'm not just dropping names. These are people that I know because I met them because they come on my show. Andre Royo, you know, Bubz from The Wire. He's also on Empire. He's in town shooting Empire, which he does every year. And I ran into him just out of nowhere in the lobby

and he wanted to come to the show. So he came. The guy who's directing the show I'm on now, Easy, Joe Swanberg, the filmmaker, he came down. That was my celebrity VIP section, alongside of my parents' friends, Shelly and Shelly, and their son, Brad, who handles my money, and his wife, some lifetime family friends. There was that sort of old school Jewish component and then the celebrity component. It was all very exciting then, about 600 or 700, however many Chicagoans that came down to the show. And it was great. The audiences in Chicago are fucking amazing. I honestly felt that it was one of the best shows I've had lately

because it was so loose and so engaged with the audience and just moving through stuff conversationally. Also, Jimmy O. Yang and his friend, they stayed for the whole show. They enjoyed the show. We went out to this place right across from the hotel here and we just fucking destroyed a double porterhouse steak. That guy, it's hilarious, right? He's this little dude, but now that he's not poor anymore, as he says, he just can't help but order as much as possible. And it was 11 at night,

and we're doing a double porterhouse. We got oysters. We got sauteed mushrooms, broccolini, asparagus, frog legs. Yeah, frog legs. It was just an insane buttery feast just a carnivorous buttery blowout and uh and it was it was great and i and i'd like to add i did not really eat any carbs if that's is that important did i mention that uh tanya Donnelly is on the show from the band Belly and also from the Breeders? Jason Bateman came by, and he's got season two of Ozark that comes out this Friday, August 31st.

You'll be able to stream all episodes, and right now you can catch up on season one if you missed it. It's an interesting show, kind of menacing. It makes you feel like Southern dirty, Southern dark, Southern scary. It's got a tone. And he directed a lot of them, which I didn't realize completely until I talked to him. I like Jason and it was nice for him to stop by. So this is me and Jason Bates. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that.

Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. we control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original

series streaming february 27th exclusively on dis Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. You do get some fantastic people. When I saw Tom York and Paul Thomas Anderson. That turned out to be a great Tom York interview. Because it was just him and I.

He doesn't do these. Exactly. And Paul Thomas Anderson doesn't do these. Exactly. And Paul Thomas Anderson doesn't sit down and talk. Yeah, but you know him, right? A tiny bit. I mean, like I thought he was some dark wizard. He's just some goofball from the valley. He's a genius.

Yeah. But as a person. He's us. Yeah. Exactly. He lives in Tarzana. Yeah. I love what he says about kids.

He said, I mean, I'll paraphrase this, but the spirit of it was he was talking about kids. And he asked him about, you know, so you got four kids or five kids? And he's like, yeah. A lot of kids. Yeah. He's like, it's like having multiple warm fires burning around the house. You know? Maybe I'm sort of projecting here, but the spirit of it, I got like, you know, you don't have to hang out with them.

It's just nice to hear them running around. You know you have multiple fires. So multiple rooms are very warm and welcoming but the fire could get out of control at any second you got a screen in front of it oh yeah i.e mom or friend or nanny or something that you know where you can stay in your bubble of narcissism if you're like me sure yeah, yeah, just insulated. Yeah, how many do you have, though, two? I've got two. Yeah, two little girls, 11 and six.

That's enough, right? I would take 12. But again, that's the narcissism in me. I do love a wood fire. But isn't it also, I mean, narcissism, but isn't it like, because my brother has three kids and he approaches it with sort of a spite against how he felt our parents did.

So isn't there an element of it that it's sort of like, I'm going to do this correctly. I'm going to be. Yes. But I think your instinct and who you really are takes over despite all your best intentions. And so my instinct, my natural sort of rest pace is to, not in an Ayn Rand sort of way, but I'm sort of this advocate for kind of taking care of number one, just in the practicality of it all. Like, in other words, if I'm in a bad mood, I'm garbage for everyone. Yeah.

Right? So if I indulge the narcissism, and I understand that that's a pejorative, and I don't really mean it as that, and I'm not proud of it or bragging about it. You're just self-centered. You're not pathologically narcissistic. Right. narcissistic right i mean the the the sense that i just know enough about myself that if i am feeling bad about myself if i haven't taken care of the things i know i should take care of right whatever that list might be whether it be you know exercising or doing my homework or studying or whatever it that that stuff will eat at me right it will make me short yeah and then i'm not a good husband i'm not a

good dad i'm not a good friend etc etc so i i i have a sort of a high standard personally for myself and so that list of things for me to accomplish is a close cousin of narcissism because i gotta get all the stuff done before i can really focus on you know the other things that are equally important but they just happen to sit behind my burden of maintenance. Right. Maintenance. But you do hit a level where you're like, okay, daddy's coming out of the room now. Yes.

For sure. My mind and my eye is on that for sure. But you're not sort of like, there's no end to- No. No. I'm not overly indulgent or there's no- Or beating the shit out of yourself constantly? OCD or anything like end. No, no. I'm not overly indulgent or there's no shit out of yourself constantly. OCD or anything like that. No.

Yeah. I'm just. Well, that's why I think the character in Ozark is like that. I mean, when you got that role, you must have thought this is perfect. Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. He's well, he's perfect in that he felt like, you know, he's taking care of number one,

but he's got this other element of kind of arrogance or hubris where he thinks that he can kind of take a shortcut and and be even a better provider by playing fast and loose with his version of ethics and morals and you know and then all of that stuff slaps him in the face i watched like i you know i hadn't watched it but when when you wanted to come on i'm like all right well i guess i'm gonna watch watched, like, I hadn't watched it, but when you wanted to come on, I'm like, all right, well, I guess I'm going to watch it. You can't finish it, though. I did. You finished it?

I finished it. Oh, my God. Thank you so much. I mean, it's like, it's five movies. I watched all of them. I'm surprised anybody finishes these things because it's a lot. It's 10 hours. And there's so many of them out there.

Right. That's what I mean. There's so much to pick from. Well, you know, it's like the dark, creepy world of the South and sort of like, you know, demonic, but a new take on the demonic hillbilly. Yeah. And just sort of this idea that you and Laura Linney can maintain some sort of relationship amidst these type of problems, which are ridiculous.

Yeah, ridiculous mostly because these two fancy city folks think they can come down and kind of big city these hillbillies and they're in for a rude awakening. But they're big city-ing the hillbillies because they're in trouble. Like the desperation factor. It's just, it's sort of amazing that in every episode, there's a point where you're like, okay, I can get us out of this. Like, I've got, I've got this. And then it's just sort of like, what the fuck?

Now there's heroin involved? Right. Well, he can't, he can't get all the way on top of it because then the show would be over. So it it ends up being the significant barriers end up coming as a result of of either, again, his his his hubris, his hubris or or the the hillbillies being more worthy of further thinking. Right. And also the fact that, you know, you can't control people. I mean, which I imagine as that character and maybe as yourself is frustrating yeah um he's but again you know playing playing people that have it all together yeah is a little boring you know and it's just it's not compelling because that supposedly is us well this guy has the audience right he hasn't come unhinged yet does that happen in season two i mean like he's come close there are parts yeah i mean the the you know the ball of of

of yarn or rubber bands or whatever you know continues to fray but as as one area becomes restitched another one starts to pop and you just can't keep uh nothing ever gets uh fully intact enough to where we can end the show and they can go back to chicago and get on with a you know a pleasantly boring life right but so like the way we left it was uh you've pitched this uh incredible casino boat idea to the mexican drug cartel guy and to the uh heroin hillbilly yeah and your family has gone undercover. That's where we're at. Right. And you have a friend in the hillbilly girl, the criminal genius.

Well, yeah, questionable. But she's a partner, a local partner. Great actress. Yeah, she's fantastic, Julia Garner. Where'd she come from? I mean, she lives in New York. Is she Southern? She is not.

No. Wow. She really did it. Yeah. Well, casting director Alexa Fogel put a lot of really talented people in front of us. And thank God. You guys are great. Your kids are great.

Your son is amazing. Yeah. Right? What the fuck? I know it. Yeah. So. Who's the old man?

Because I've seen him forever. Paris Ulan. He's great. Yeah. Always a little menacing, that guy. Yeah. Even. Who's the old man? Because I've seen him forever. Paris Ulan. He's great. Yeah. Always a little menacing, that guy. Yeah. Even if he's playing a nice guy. And you've seen him in everything.

He's in Scarface. He's the corrupt cop in Scarface. He always plays sort of a creepy, powerful, heavy of some kind. Or like a handful of Starsky and Hutch's, too. Oh, way back. Just everything. Yeah, forever. I think he's real good in this.

He's fantastic. He's such a good dude. I was wondering how you were going to get out of that repetition of it just keeps escalating. And at what point does suspending your disbelief become an issue? Right. Well, that is the burden of a very, very smart group of writers that we have. I mean, you do have to keep the escalation going, which is tantamount to going to a concert

and you want to see the band play the hits. Right. I mean, you're fine with, you can mix up the solo a little bit, but let's hear the song. I don't want you unplugging everything and doing the acoustic version of the big hit. Don't speed it up. Right.

So do what we loved about the first year. Have a compelling escalation to the plot. Yeah. Further complicate the relationships. But now, you know, we finished season two. Season two starts the end of August. And so season three, if we're lucky enough to get one, you know, the burden is on us to not create a third season but a third movie you know like the second year was a was a sequel yeah and the third year needs to be a whole nother movie with

a different beginning middle and end and it can't just be a third version of what you've done for year one and year two something's got to be introduced that uh the the changes the calculus for for everything without without jumping the shark like that's that's always the right right yeah and don't become redundant and don't do something that's totally ridiculous you got to hit the middle yeah it's weird that uh like you know you killed off some pretty significant cast members in the first season. Yeah, I think there were 15 deaths, and I think we got something pretty close to that in the second year. It doesn't drive the narrative, but we do recognize that that's a bit of an obligation, I think, in today's...

What, killing people? in today's, you know. What, killing people? Well, in these types of shows, I think, that, you know, these streaming, serialized shows, there's an excitement, I think, that the audience has where if you kill a significant character,

the stakes rise from an audience standpoint. Like, oh, okay, I'd like to see how these people who are writing this story are going to get us to the finish line without that guy well i think i think that's true i think that like if you're a sophisticated watcher that you do realize like with this show in particular is a good example that it's definitely a writer's show i mean you guys have to act it sure and it's good writing but you do start to at a certain point where you just become impressed with these narrative narrative twists or how your character is going to get out of this or what's going to end. And it becomes almost like an exercise of mental and emotional escape and finding a balance.

Yeah, it's not too dissimilar from a book in that it's not a visual medium, a book. It's not a visual medium, a book. It is all reliant on the complexities of the stories, the way in which you dangle a cliffhanger at the end of each episode slash chapter. What is the overall theme? What's the overall plot? And then hopefully our visual and musical component rises to the same level of the plot stuff.

So there's that sort of recipe. And you guys are acting the fuck out of it, so that's good. Even if something's a little sort of like, I don't know. They're selling it. Well, yeah, and that's sort of my job is the guy that's looking at all the cuts and making sure that everything stays consistent throughout 10 episodes, even though I don't direct all of them. How many did you direct?

The first year I did four of the 10 and this year I only did two of the 10. So it's hard to direct, direct yourself. Well, I mean, it's running back and forth from the playback. It's, it's,

it's actually, um, you know, the, the acting is so, uh, sort of comfortable for me at this point that it allows me to just be aware of all the other parts of the process while we're rolling. Yeah.

So it's actually more efficient because I don't have to direct that guy. Right. You know, that guy's reading my mind for what he needs to do on the next take. And you've got a good DP whose tone is established. Because that's one thing about this show is like, you know, you feel dirty after. Like, you know, it lingers with you. If the episode doesn't linger, the fucking South does.

That part of it or whatever that is. That was the draw for me originally with the show, reading the first two scripts. Well, this is something that I want to direct because I see that what the story is demands a certain visual kind of world atmosphere palette tone whatever yeah so that you would so that these these story elements are appropriate in other words people aren't growing poppies and killing people or doing whatever in a place that has fully saturated color and is in a lot of hard light and it can't look like a Disney show.

Yeah. So all of that stuff was, uh, was really the most fun I've had on this show is the, is the directing element of it and establishing the look and crewing up and grabbing a bunch of people that, that are reading the same scripts that I'm reading. Did you do the first four? Like, I mean, I did the first two and then I did the last two. Yeah. You were the guy.

Yeah, that was really important. I mean, the original plan was for me to do all of them, and that's why I said yes to it. And then when we got right up to scheduling and budgeting, I realized I couldn't create enough prep time to do all of them. Oh, to do. And that was a big disappointment. But as the executive producer, that is sort of that oversight position that a director gets in film

is the equivalent in television, sort of that oversight position that a director gets in film is is the equivalent in television sort of that that executive producer role so that was your deal your executive producer and you you're the director of the of the the the stage setting many as i can do yeah but the first two are the most important and correct sort of setting the tone you're casting you're the star yeah so this was all and they approached you or is that in and when you read this stuff that was what you wanted well they came to me about they actually didn't even come to me this was these were the first two scripts were the only ones that were written yeah um and my agent read them uh and they were in the the office of of abandoned scripts uh a floor or two below his office yeah he had a canceled lunch and he read these two scripts.

He said, I just read the first, the best two scripts I've ever read. And I said, well, what fancy client are they for of yours? Because I'm low man on his roster. Yeah. And he said, no, I think that'd be good for you. And I said, well, what is it? He says, well, there's, it's the two first two episodes of a series. I go, a limited series, you know, one that has a finite ending.

He said, no, it would be an ongoing show. And I said, well, we're looking for a film for me to direct that would be an escalation from the first two films I directed, something with more scope and more schedule and more responsibility and complications. And he said, well, I think this could qualify as those things if they let you direct all of them. And I said, well, yeah, you're right. That would be a 600-page movie.

And he said, let's ask them about it. I said, okay. Do you think that they would even be open for that? Have they even, they haven't called us, right? He goes, no, no, no, I just found these scripts. I go, okay, so first you have to call them and say, hey, do you know who my client Jason Babin is? And B, he's interested in your show.

C, do you give a shit? And D, he wants interested in your show. C, do you give a shit? And D, he wants to direct them all. He wants to do all of them. Right. So basically the response was, oh, thank you. Yes, we know who he is. Thank you very much for your interest. We're out to, you know, fancy directors that shall remain nameless.

Like really fancy directors. Right. And so I said to my agent, I said, that's enough. Let's not embarrass ourselves by saying we want to be included in the conversation. He said, no, no, no. Just take a meeting with them. I was like, okay, great. So I'm nervous as hell taking a meeting with people.

I know clearly I'm well beneath their target. But when you do that, though, do you act like the character and just sort of take charge and go into a whole pitch? God, no. No. Because then they'd say, get this douchebag out of our office. Come on. like the character and just sort of take charge and go into a whole pitch god no no because then they'd you know say get this douchebag out of our office so uh i i just as humbly and as sincerely as possible try to explain how i saw the show literally what it would look like what it would sound like what other shows they can imagine i'm going to try to sort of comps.

And that went well enough for them to say, okay. And then we pitched Netflix, and Netflix said the same thing, and away we went. But as I said, unfortunately, I couldn't. It would have been. It's a lot, man. The pre-production would have been about a year, and then post-production, the editing and all that stuff, would have been that's a lot man the pre-production would have been about a year and then post-production

the editing and all that stuff would have been that and then some i think it sounds like you like you did a good amount and you were able to also like no matter how comfortable you are with the acting i mean you still got to do it correct but it's um it's uh it again it makes my job as a director more, it's helpful for me to have a hand on the wheel in front of the camera and another hand behind the camera if I'm trying to hit a really small target. Right. Totally, you know. Yeah, and you got nominated for acting and for directing, right? For Emmys. Yeah.

That's great. It was a fun morning, to put it lightly. And when, so that, have you been nominated before? I have, yeah. For Arrested Development? Arrested, yeah. Did you win? No, no.

No, no. And I won't be winning this year, but it'll be a fun date night for me and my wife. I think I'll be there. I think I'll be there. Glo was nominated. But I think the cast gets to go, don't we? Oh, yeah. Do we get to sit in the good seats or not?

No, you'll be upstairs. Oh, upstairs? I'm kidding. I've never been. There's so many of us us i bet you do a tux real well i think that i have a black tom ford suit that'll work do it yeah right yeah i mean you own a tux right uh yes yeah see i didn't buy a tux about a black suit this is all new to me well it's the same thing it is yeah a black tie yeah you can either wear a long tie or a bow tie. And then you're set. Yeah.

Fuck it. Yeah. So your talent, you can wear tennis shoes. Yeah. To be that guy, especially since you won't be standing up. No one will be the wiser.

Right. Be the pretend. I don't give a fuck guy. Right. Hey, I'm just saying, I heard Denzel Washington goes to the golden gloves wearing sweatpants. Is that right?

That's what I heard. I heard it from one source. I can't confirm it. Are they tearaways? No, I don't know. Because that would be very strong. I just think he doesn't want to be uncomfortable if he's going to sit there. If they read your name, you just get up and you just rip them off and you just say, deal with this. Get your prize.

But what did you, like, I assume after the two movies you made that, you know, this was an opportunity to get more experience. And it seems like you would get a phenomenal amount of of hands-on experience doing this oh yeah i mean anytime you're in that chair you're learning a lot because the job literally as you know you've spent uh oodles of time on on sets the directors are the people that are kind of the they're kind of the the arsonist and the firefighter. Right. Most of the time is the firefighting. Yeah.

You're answering questions, you're fixing problems, but your creative plan has a tendency to ignite small little fires all over the place. Sure. That you have a responsibility to immediately follow with a little can of water and say, no, no, no, I understand that the ripple down effect is this, but don't worry. I got that covered with this. Yeah. So you just have to have your shit together.

I mean, you've got to, you've got to have a plan and it is your obligation to communicate that in a, in a, in a succinct way to multiple departments so that all of those efforts funnel into like the same little channel that can shape. The goal is to shape the same experience for a bunch of people that you don't know that might be in different moods that are in different houses. I mean. And again, not unlike your family. I imagine you have to, you know, sort of work to have a, you know, to be grounded in yourself. So you don't.

I don't know. Like, do you find find have you ever been a difficult one on the set i i don't know i don't think so i mean you'd have to ask people that that that i work with i'm sure there's a couple of people that uh didn't have a great time i can't i don't i don't know of any to speak of but uh but you don't lose your shit no i i'm a big big advocate for getting your work done and doing it without screaming without without playing the you know the the power dynamic card which is which is kind of a lazy kind of rookie thing to do right because if you want to be a worker among workers well there's just there's a there's there's just a clear fact that anybody who spent time on a set there's no one there that doesn't need to be there.

So the second you start to belittle or dismiss the presence or the contributions of anybody basically means you don't really understand how the whole magic trick works. Because if any one of those people is not doing their job as well as the person next to them, the wheels start to wobble. And you see it on screen. You really do. Well, that's interesting because, you know, we're talking about this, and now you're in a position where you're running a set. And, you know, in that event that happened at that press conference, you know, for Arrested Development, where you sort of had to, you know,

I don't know what your impulse was in that moment, but it seemed like you just wanted to make everything okay. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. And I certainly overshot. And, you know, unfortunately, one of the things that was the fallout from that was the opposite of what i just said to you which is my position about on set decorum it sounded like i was okay with um and excusing people being disruptive on set or affecting other people's work processes and and and that is could not be further from the truth and that's uh that's part of me sort of just um you know, being thinking that, well, if I just keep talking and, you know, people are going to understand what I'm saying and everything's going to be all right. And I just need to shut up and listen a lot more and stop trying to, you know, make everything okay sometimes.

Maybe that's a control issue. Sure it is. Yeah. everything okay sometimes maybe that's a control issue or sure it is yeah i mean i mean i think i from our last conversation i remember there was a sort of a little bit if not chaos detachment in the upbringing yeah which you know kind of forces you into a self-parenting mode yeah and uh it just wasn't my conversation to get into what happened after it afterwards there was hugs and kisses and and we all left that that meeting thinking well that was a really beautiful thing we worked through something well yeah because jessica said you know emotionally i'm gonna take this moment to forgive you jeffrey

and move forward and so we all thought that was like an incredibly positive thing because you know we hadn't sat with Jeffrey. We hadn't been with Jeffrey in that setting to hear about everything that happened on Transparent. Yeah. And so it was it was a really emotional vibe in there. There's there's a lot of care for him in that room. room and um for her to be overwhelmed with that and and and and being as generous as she was about putting all that behind her um and behind their relationship really felt i don't know if lovely is the right word but cathartic yeah it was just it was it was a really kind and beautiful thing that she did and and so it was obviously uh was obviously surprising to me and to all of us that

the backlash that followed. And look, as I said in my apology, I can see from rereading the transcript and hearing an excerpt from it, how all of the position that I took could be misconstrued for excusing his behavior, giving him cover, and being insensitive to Jessica. And I get that, and I so apologize for that. But she knows that I don't feel that way about her. We've talked since, and all is good. Well, good.

I'm glad that that is, it seems to have passed, but I continue to listen and learn a lot because obviously there was a blind spot there for me that I got a lot to learn about. Well, I think also, but the blind spot is like I've been on sets and the way you're talking about the set that you run, you know, is sort of collaborative and respectful. And yeah, sometimes jobs are hard. Sometimes, you know, things, there are arguments about process, but not, you know, abusive. It just happens in the creative process. But, you know, you're looking to be in a collaborative, creative environment where everyone's doing their job at the best they can.

And respecting one another. And if somebody has a difficult way in which they go about their work, they have a responsibility to be accountable for that. And if it makes somebody else's work process uncomfortable, well, then you either have to change the way you work or apologize for the way you work or be accountable, acknowledge the way in which you work. You can't just not say something about it, expect people to adapt because everybody's process at work and experience at work needs to be a positive one. There's no excuse. There's no reason why it can't be a positive and a pleasurable thing. And if somebody's making that difficult, they need to change, apologize, or adjust. Yeah.

And I think that like in the arts, when somebody, you know, over years, and this is like there's obviously an awareness that is elevated now, rightfully so, and it's right in a paradigm shift around what we tolerate, but not just sexually, but you know, with just kind of explosive, abusive behavior because talented people, they used to get this pass.

Yeah. Right. It's ridiculous, but it went on forever. I mean, I, you know, I've had moments where I've,

uh, you know, thrown shit fits, but throwing a shit fit, wandering off and yelling in your trailer at nobody. Yeah. It's different than just ruining a set. Yeah, there's a way in which to do things.

And people, no matter how young they are, I deal with it with my 11-year-old, my 6-year-old. You can see when it is somebody understands the difference between right or wrong and if they're too young to understand that well then there's a different set of judgment but that passes like at five yeah you know right my six-year-old is past the well she doesn't know better yeah you know there's you know i can sit down and really have a conversation with her yeah And that's my job as a parent to explain to her, I know this feels wrong. And let me, let me tell you, let me tell you why you probably feel wrong about or guilty about what you did or how you can make that better. And I'm here to remind you, cause you're not going to be perfect. And you know, every once in a while you're going to miss a little bit, but

that's what we're all here to do. And same thing at work. You know, if somebody makes a mistake or steps out of line, well, it's all of our jobs to say, hey, can I talk to you for a second? That made me uncomfortable. And I'd appreciate it if you didn't do that again and or apologize. You know, it's interesting, though, is in grownups, it's usually coming from emotionally about the age of your daughter. Yeah. Yeah. from emotionally about the age of your daughter. Yeah, yeah. You know, that tantrums and weird emotional reactions

and abusive sort of kind of insecurity. Yeah. You know, it's all like, you know, the kid stuff. Yeah, and oftentimes it comes from a place of discomfort and fear. And I think one, the, the, one of the most helpful things to avoid

that very natural element we all have, that human element, is to create a kind and safe atmosphere. Sure. So that people are not fearful

and are not insecure at work. And they feel supported and that if there's a problem, they have somewhere to go with it. Oh, yeah. Right.

Well, good, man. So you directed how many this season uh just the first two i didn't get a chance to come home and see my girls and my wife that that much um last year and so i just want to do the first two um because you know we have to shut down if i'm going to direct any episodes that are that are beyond that because we're into the season because you have to you have to prep those right um so i didn't want to to do that because then I can't come back during prep, can't come back during directing. And where are you shooting? In Atlanta. And how much do you, because like, you know what was great about it, and I don't know

how much you had to do with the conception of it or set deck, was that, you know, it didn't, you know, some of these characters are right at the edge of feeling familiar, you know, Southern of these characters are right at the edge of feeling familiar, you know, Southern weirdos. Yeah. But they all have a lot of heart to them. And also the tone of it and where they live seems sort of authentic as opposed to gothic. Yeah. Which, you know, I thought was a great testament to the sensitivity of not stereotyping.

Yeah. I mean, listen, 100% of that is the writing and the other 100% is the performing. And then there's a little bit of the, again, the visual and in our case, the sonic world that you put around that and the editorial sort of pacing you put around that. Because oftentimes you can write a very non-human line for a character by design. you can write a very non-human line for a character by design. But if you keep the camera there after that person says the line, you can also incorporate the human side of it. In other words, the feeling of guilt or embarrassment for having said that non-human line. So you can create that combination that then lands it for the audience that, oh, there's a lot of heart in that killer.

Yeah, yeah. Or there's a lot of ignorance in that person that is being intolerant. Yeah, yeah. So oftentimes it plays either before or after the line and that becomes our job

in the editing room to make sure that we're not trying to make the show zip along so fast. Like you've got to let things breathe and process. Yeah, that's where it all happens in that editing room to make sure that we're not trying to make the show you know zip along so fast like you've got to let it breathe breathe and process yeah that's where it all happens yeah in that editing room yeah all right man well i'm looking forward to it i'll see you you know at the emmys if they let me sit in the good seats yeah we'll be sitting probably right next to each other sharing snacks good thanks man thank you Thanks, man. Thank you.

Jason Bateman. I like hanging out with him. Season two of Ozark premieres on Friday, August 31st on Netflix, as I said earlier. So, Tanya Donnelly and the band Belly, they had a couple of great albums, a couple of nice hits uh she also was on the first um breeders record pod which is a great record and uh also uh we worked at a restaurant together up in uh coolidge corner yeah up there in brookline edibles the restaurant i worked with tanya donnelly when she was probably still in the throwing muses oh my god how am i just spacing that out in this introduction throwing muses

what a great fucking band of course i talked to her about that but i just realized that earlier in my introduction i did not bring up the Throwing Muses. I just brought up the Breeders and Belly, but Throwing Muses with Kristen Hirsch, that was the fucking band, man. I remember seeing them when we worked at Edibles in this little place upstairs. I can't remember the name of the place. I'll talk to her about it, but those few Throwing Muses albums are great. But anyways, Tanya, I hadn't seen in a long time. They put out this new Belly record. And it's great.

It's a Belly record. And it was great to see her, great to talk to her, great to catch up, great to see that. She's never stopped working and does a lot of other, you know, does a lot of stuff, does a lot of recording just her own songs here and there on different compilations and through a series of records. I was thrilled to see her. So this is me talking to Tanya Donnelly. The new album by Belly called Dove

is available wherever you get music. It's the first Belly album in 23 years, folks. Why do bands, why does it come on, what happens? Well, I'll talk to tanya donnelly about it so yeah you asked me what have i been doing for the last 30 years i have some idea isn't that crazy and i was like back there making sandwiches yeah yeah. Yeah. And scooping Tofutti. Yeah. That was up front. I never got to the Tofutti counter.

I was just a sandwich guy. It's so weird because that's like people get frozen in time and you're just sort of like, what are they? Because I remember going to see, throwing muses, like somewhere upstairs in a corner. Fuck, it wasn't like T.T. to Bears, but that didn't have much of a stage. Maybe.

I mean, it was like, I just remember it was upstairs and there was really no stage. And it was sort of down, it was downtown. Yeah. And you're like in a corner. Yes.

Yeah. I think that's Chet's. Yeah. And it was just, there was me and about 12 other people there. Yeah. And you guys standing there

in the corner. That's about right. It must have been before, like before the big record. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, been before the big record, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's where we sort of cut our teeth.

I am sort of fascinated with the whole, like, the new record's great. It sounds like a belly record. Good. I hope with the 20 plus years. A little older, a little wiser, but it sounds like you guys, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And how long between albums? It seems like-

It was 23- 23 years? 22 years, something like that. So it just took you that long to write those songs? We just, yeah. Like Leonard Cohen? We were slow moving. Yes, this was our hallelujah.

Like writhing in pain on the floor. No, it wasn't a hiatus. It was a breakup. Sure. And this is, you know-atus. It was a breakup. Sure. And this is, you know. Right. This is our 11th hour. But did you guys remain friends?

I mean. We did. We did. I mean, we're all from Newport, which is a very small place. Our families are close. Our siblings have dated. My family used to spend holidays at the Gorman family Greenwoods you know there's no

way to extricate yourself from the island which is a very common thing yeah but okay let's go all the way back then because I mean you were part you were founding member of the Throwing Muses, obviously. And then you were founding member of the Breeders, really, right?

First album, then a little something on the second one. And then Belly happened simultaneously, right? To the Breeders, kind of? Yeah, I mean, actually, the songs on the first Belly album were supposed to be, those were earmarked for Breeders, the second Breeders kind of? Yeah. I mean, actually, the songs on the first Belly album were supposed to be, those were earmarked for Breeders, the second Breeders album, because Kim and I had sort of had this plan that she would write the first and I would write the second. Yeah.

But then the Pixies sort of signed on to this 18-month tour. Yeah. And I got antsy, and so. And she could never get off tour? to this 18-month tour. Yeah. And I got antsy, and so... And she could never get off tour? Well, that's basically what it was, and I really wanted to get going because I just left the muses and...

I'm just adjusting volume. Hold on. Yeah, that's fine. I don't know. You speak lightly. Yeah, I know. You do know that? I do know that.

It's been made clear to me. It's been a problem on radio? Treat. Like your invisible voice? But okay, so I like the new record, and I had no idea, looking around at stuff in the last couple of days. I mean, you've been sort of plugging away pretty diligently for the past two decades.

I mean, there's like four or five of those Swan Song records, and there seems to be like 900 songs throughout the course of those. And there's a few other solo records as well. And you do them every couple years, right? You just kind of record all the songs you're writing? Yeah, because I never stop writing. It's a function. But it's so good that you just kind of, like, there's so many people that we know.

Like, I don't know what happened to some of those people yeah do you no but you know i i have to say that's doing you know working in the boston community and you know new england as a whole it's self-sustaining and it's a very happy productive oh you mean creatively as a singer and songwriter? Yeah. You have a loyal following in the area, in the region? Yes. Yeah. And, you know, I have done tours in the interim as well. I did get to a point where, you know, touring from 18 on for so long, I came to a stopping point, what I considered to be a healthy stopping point at the time.

When was that? That would be probably 19, or no, 2004-ish, something around there. So where'd you, let's start out though, like Newport, Rhode Island, because my idea of Newport, Rhode Island is fancy. I think I was only there once. I was drunk, it wasn't good, it was in a mansion,

it was some sort of party, don't remember why. Mm-hmm, yeah. But it's a mansion. It was some sort of party. Don't remember why. Mm-hmm. But it's not fancy? It's not an uncommon story. Yeah. Well, if you were in a mansion, yeah. But it was like a rental. It was a rental.

You were on the right side of the checks. Right. But it wasn't even at the person who owned the house. I think someone rented it for a wedding or something. Yeah. I can't remember. It's unclear. I mean, like any place.

Yeah. I mean, clearly, it has, there's a split. Yeah. You know, I come, I primarily grew up in the Fifth Ward, which is not fancy.

There are wards? But I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how that works. The Fifth Ward's kind of like the traditionally Irish, you know, Irish,

where the Irish landed. Are you traditionally irish i'm traditionally a lot of things but yes primarily primarily yeah and so like but you grew up the whole time there newport i did yeah yeah and we put my we bopped around from apartment to apartment but we that's where i grew up for the most and what's your dad what was he like doing he's a he's a plumber. A plumber in Newport. He is and he's also an actor. He does a lot of theater work there.

My mom's a legal secretary. Plumber. Retired. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, did he have his own plumbing operation? He did.

Yeah. Yep. And it's extremely helpful. Oh, hell yeah. As a homeowner. Oh, now? Yeah. And he used to,

you know, he did, he taught us a lot of stuff too. You know, he would come, Kristen and I would actually, and my brother, we would, when the van, when we would hear the van pulling up outside the house, we would scatter and hide. Because it meant he had a, if it was during the day, it meant that he had found a pipe he couldn't get his hand into. Right. And that's what he was coming for one of us. No, no. Oh, he wanted you to come stick your hand in it?

No, no. Yes. He was coming to pull us into the jaw. Oh, you got to be kidding. To reach into a tight spot. Uh-huh. I mean, that only happened a few times, but it was. We were rumbling up.

Sure. Who wants to do that as a kid? That doesn't sound like fun. So wait, Kristen lived with you because you're related? Step. How'd that work? Well, we actually met when we were very young, like five or six, and we became very close. And then at some point, everyone's parents split up and started marrying each other.

Right. And that's only a slight exaggeration. And so my dad and her mom hooked up and ultimately got married. And they're divorced now. Right. And what about your mom and that crew? Are they friends?

Or how does that all work? Yeah, yeah. It's, again, sort of the same. I'm going to retread what I just said. It's too small for contention. It's too small to... Maybe for a little while. There must have been a little contention.

Yeah, well, I mean, there's... Initial? Yeah, there's definitely... There are words. Sure. But, you know, at the end of the day, I really do feel like everyone just has to sort of duke it out

and get over it and figure it out because you're going to run into somebody sure and you got kids together and yeah right

down the street yeah so like you know yeah I mean it did it did there was a sort of like a

who's got the kids where are the kids what's you know there was a little we didn't have curfews, no one knew where we were. You know, there was a little bit of chaos there, but it was lovingly, with loving stewardship. Oh, yeah? Yes. Well, it's like, is it that small a community where, like, everyone knows the cops?

Oh, yeah. Right. So, like, how far could you go? If you weren't running away, you'd turn up one way or the other exactly somewhere right someone's got their eye on you yeah so when you guys were kids and all this was going on i mean when did you and kristin when do you start playing guitar and doing that stuff um we started doing that when we were 14. And with the support of both of our dads, like for some reason she ended up

with my dad's guitar and I ended up with her dad's guitar. Really? You don't know how that happened? I have no idea. And you're writing songs

or no? We started playing, we started, we learned how to play from basically the Beatles song books. Yeah. The big one.

The one that had Lennon and McCartney on the cover. With like the weird binder. Yes. Yeah. That book. The flip binder, yeah. Yeah.

But there's those transitions. Like the Beatles do these runs, right? Like all these fancy chords. Yeah. And that's what kind of laid the wiring, huh? Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And Kristen very quickly started to write original pretty much very quickly once we learned how to play. Yeah. And I was a little slower coming to that gate. But were you in high school? Were you guys like cool kids? No, no. We were each other's only friend. Seriously? The weirdos with the guitars? We had, as we, I think, you know, I don't know, I'm speaking for myself right now. Because my, you know, obviously my perspective on this.

Are you guys friends still? Oh yeah, sure. You are? Yeah. But you never, do you occasionally play together? We just did, in March we did three shows in Boston at the City Winery. As the muses? Nope,

just separate solo acts and then we did a few songs together at the end. Was that nice? It was really nice. Yeah, it was great.

Like, why wouldn't you do that more often? We talk about it, but it's just, it's our lives, the pace of our lives is very different.

She's on non-stop on tour, basically. Oh, really? Yeah, she's just, she goes, goes, goes, goes. Huh.

Didn't she have a kid long before everyone else? Yes. Long before. Yeah. When we had first moved to Boston when we were like 18 is when she found out

she was pregnant. Right. Yeah. And then she went back. With a bass player's baby? No. Oh. Uh-oh.

No. Okay. No. Okay. She had three subsequent children with another person, but the first was. Right. I kind of remember that. I remember that as being like, wow, she's got a kid. Yeah. Yeah.

All right, let's go back then. That's how we felt too. Although it quickly normalized, to be honest with you. Yeah. As teenagers touring with a child, it felt, you know, we would say, I shared a room with her and we would take turns having Dylan in our, sleep in the bed when he was a baby. Right. And it just didn't feel after, I don't know, it sort of, it just, anything normalizes,

you know? Yeah, of course. You get to a point where. Sometimes unfortunately. Yes, sometimes quite unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. But so when you're in high school and you're just playing,

so you start playing in the band before you get out of high school, really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. So the band, I would say by the time we were 15. And who was in the band? We had our first round, which was all female at the time. Who was it?

Elaine Adamides and Cindy Scanlon was our first bass drummer. And then Becca Blumen. And then we went through, I think, a few before Narciso. David Narciso joined when we were at the end of our junior year, I guess. In high school. Yeah. And you're playing around Newport? Yep.

And then Leslie Langston, who was an older woman at the time, but really now we're the same age. We brought her in same age. She, we brought her in as well. She's an amazing, amazing bass player. Are you going to Boston yet? We're not going to Boston. We played,

our first show was at the Newport Art Association. All originals? All originals, yeah. Yeah? And a Yoko Ono song. Oh, really?

Which one? Never Say Goodbye. And Kristen sang that? We took turns oh yeah yeah i don't know the song but i imagine it's got to get pretty high up there it's beautiful yeah it does we yeah that one doesn't have any of the acrobatics it's just kind of a straight straight up song yeah so you really great song beautiful song so what year are we talking here so that would be 1981 so this is like a pretty like you wanted to have a girl group full of strong lady voices.

Sort of. At the time, that was kind of, you know, we sort of tried to go back and tease this apart. Was that intentional? Did we have it? Or was it just the people we knew? Right. What did you come up with? You know, so I think it might was it just the people we knew right what'd you come up you know

so i think it might have just been the people we knew because when dave joined that was seamless it wasn't like right there was no right now you're the guy now there's a boy right there's no sure transition period well i just think that choosing of a yoko ono song out of all songs to cover in the world seems like you, you know, you had a mission in some way. Yeah. Well, we were big. We sort of,

I think also, we were just huge fans of hers in general and continue to be. Yeah? Yeah. My girlfriend's a huge fan. I don't know a lot of her stuff

and I guess like, you know, I know she's a very prolific artist in a lot of different ways. But, you know, I don't know. It's not for everyone. Well, it's not even that. I don't even know if I've really

judged it properly. I've seen some of her art and I think it's okay. But it is like, there is a big bunch of art there that I haven't experienced. But I'm told that... Experience is the word. Yeah. I carried grapefruit around when I was a teenager. For what? Just to...

As reference, I don't know. I just wanted. What's Great Fruit? Great Fruit is a Yoko Ono. Oh, it is? Yeah. It's a book? It's a book of her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, you carried the book around with you. I did. I loved it. What was it that? It was like this little sort of five by five pocket. What was it that resonated so much? The positivity of it. Yeah.

of it and just sort of the just how streamlined and simple it was but just still still

powerful to me you know I just felt like it really did resonate with me it really oh now I gotta get it I bet you my girlfriend

has it see what's gonna happen now after I talk to you I'm gonna be like do you have any of that Yoko Ono stuff she's gonna be like I've been telling you

for three years you know I'm like well I just talked to Tanya like of that Yoko Ono stuff? She's going to be like, I've been telling you for three years. I'm like, well, I just talked to Tanya. I'm like, why don't you listen to me? That's what's going to happen. Full disclosure, I haven't revisited her work in decades, but it was a big

for me. Did you all finish high school? We did. So you stayed in Newport, and how many songs did you end up Sort of like amassing Or writing by the end of high school Did you have a pretty good set? Yeah, we did Yeah, I mean dozens

I would say Not all of them made the cut Yeah But Because you know a lot of it was Sort of this Let's try this Let's try this

Let's try this And the things that were sort of very More stylized Fell by the wayside As soon as we found our own our own voice yeah you know right our own pace and um so a lot of those sort of training wheel songs yeah we're left behind for the most part and so so okay so you're in a band. It's you. I'm in a band. And by the time you graduate high school, David's in the band. Yeah. And Scanlon is out? Yeah, yes.

Yeah. Okay. I like the Irish names. And Bloomin'. Yeah, I know. And Bloomin's out. But did you grow up crazy Catholic? No.

No, my parents were pretty much atheists for the most part. Oh, yeah? Yeah. He was a groovy plumber? There's a lot of Catholic DNA. Yeah. Sure. Rosary in my double helix.

Yeah. But it's... Is that a lyric? It's on mute. It's dormant at the moment. Sure. And then Ashkenazi on my mom's side, but again, same. You have a Jewish mom?

Came through, well, great grandmother who came and grandfather came. But their families came not practicing, though. No observance. Sure, sure. So I don't claim anything. Right. I'm really careful on both sides with to not claim any religious affiliation because I don't have any experience with any of it.

But from that side, they came through Greenwich Village beatniks that basically rejected everything. Oh, really? Yeah, my mom's parents. Were beatniks? Yeah. Oh, good. So you have sort of like a nice hippie pedigree there. Yes.

And your dad's parents, what were they? Were they in Newport? Naval commander. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, hold on. But very, honestly, as liberal as you can be

within that, you know. And you knew them, so they were around when you were growing up. Yes, both of my grandparents. My parents had me very, I was a teen result as well. Yeah, oh, really?

Yeah, so I knew my grandmother still alive, my maternal. Oh, really? My paternal grandmother, yeah. That's great still alive, my maternal. Oh, really? My paternal grandmother. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

New England people are very unique. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it's for good and bad. But like, when I go back there, which I don't do much, there's something so distinctive about like certain areas, like New England, Philly. There's like a kind of rough, but compassionate bunch. Pragmatism. Yeah, yeah.

But with an edge to it. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yep, yep, yep. It's true. So, all right. So wait, so now Kristen gets pregnant in high school?

Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. So now she's got a kid by what, senior year? She's got a kid by end of senior. No, so it was the summer after wow is that right wait let me do this math winter after i guess yeah what year did you graduate um so 84 um so and he was born in 86 he was actually born in 86 so there was a little gap and so everyone was like

what what's happening yeah you. You're gonna, okay, I guess. Yeah, but there wasn't a moment, I have to say, there was once, as soon as she decided to have him,

we were fully on board. There was no talk for a second of maybe the band won't happen. It didn't, you know, it just, You were still full steam ahead.

Absolutely. She had the baby, she figured out... Full steam ahead. We signed to 4AD during that period. It's a British label? Yeah. How did that signing happen? We sent the tape.

We were Cocteau Twins fans and sent the tape to him because that's how we had heard of 4AD, to Ivo Watts Russell. And he had this policy of not signing any American bands at the time, but he wanted to mentor us and sort of get us, he basically sort of unofficially managed us for that demo. The guy from the Cocktail Twins? The label owner of 480, the guy that started 480.

Okay. And then he got to the point where he felt like he was starting to get too attached, and so he signed us. Were you the first American band? We were the first American band. Yeah, okay, okay. Throwing Muses, first American band. And then we brought the Pixies with us, too.

Oh, really? Yeah. So now, in order to be hanging out as teenagers still and signing record contracts and touring, I'd imagine with a baby i'm assuming that you were you guys weren't out of control in any way no no not at all you didn't live the rock and roll lifestyle right and we had some people who immediately in salem 66 those you know among them just sort of and the mission of burma guys the bird songs people like there were just it's

this kind of group of people that um good folks helped yeah you know like really pulled us up and and supported and gave us sort of a a template in a way um and introduced us to the community and you know um so we had a lot of and Gary Smith 100 very very important to us who's that guy Gary was the owner of Fort Apache

Fort Apache right I've talked to I think I talked to maybe Jana what's about that yeah and he he managed me

he managed Juliana Hatfield he managed Natalie Merchant and he produced Muses records Pixies records The Chills

he had a he's a renaissance Juliana Hatfield yeah I remember her she did I think she sent me Muses Records, Pixies Records, The Chills. He's a renaissance. Julianna Hatfield. Yeah. I remember her. I think she sent me a bunch of records. I got to get up to speed on her.

I end up doing a lot of catch-ups. She's fantastic. Yeah, no, I'll get into it. Where does she live? She's in Boston, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I remember hearing her name. I'm married to her bass player. That's how I met my husband Was on tour with her

You had one husband Actually I have one 25 years old 25 years Husband And babies Two

19 and 12 girls Older Yeah Like I don't know why My brain keeps wanting To put us back in Boston Like it was just

It's so weird When you miss a chunk. Remember Fat Mike, the manager? Big Fat Mike with the beard? Yeah. He used to do coke with Mike. I wonder if he's still around. Yeah. I don't know.

I don't know. That was... Yeah. Yeah. And Ira and Bunny. Ira and Bunny were the owners. Oh, my God. Yes.

Big Ira, doofy Ira, and little sort of round bunny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah. It's all there, just like flashing before my eyes. Right? I'd always had a problem

because they had these sandwich steamers that I just never understood in retrospect. Like these steam tables where you give someone an order, you take a whole pita, lay it flat, put the tuna on it, and then like sprouts and tomatoes

and cheese on top and put it in the steamer. It was such a weird, I feel like everything there was just, was kind of just slightly off grid in terms of how everything functioned. Like, and it had like sort of one of those faux health food deli vibes where it was, yeah, like this is, this is healthy. Yeah. It was hippie. It wasn't healthy.

It was like hippie. Yeah. Yeah. You remember the Caribbean singer, Keith? Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. it was hippie. It wasn't healthy. It was like hippie. You remember the Caribbean singer Keith? Oh yeah, yeah, yes! Oh my God, you have an amazing memory. And George, the other Caribbean guy, the cricket player.

I have to admit that I actually went on my own like wiki page last night to bone up on my own chronology because I know that your memory is... It's not good. I was there today. It's not that your memory is It's not good. I was there today. I'm not that great. Okay.

My memory's not that great. I was like, I have to remember my own life if I'm going to be revisiting it. Well, I mean, I just like, there's something about

like that, you know, what you came into and even like somewhat before us as well there because I'm a little older than you,

not much. I graduated high school in 81. Right. Right. So, like, yeah. But there was a generation of Boston music that happened before us.

Yeah. Like with the Cars, Modern Lovers, and like that crew. Amazing, yeah. Yeah, but they laid this out. And like in your generation, I think was, that was like, it seems like, maybe not the end of it,

but there was, before they plowed under, you know, Kenmore Square, I Square, it was really this vital place. I've had Amy Mann on a few times, and she was a little older than us when she was doing that Till Tuesday thing. Right. Right? Yeah. But now she's, I think, as a solo artist, probably generationally alongside of you guys. Yeah, I think so.

A little bit, maybe. Yeah, she was more of a paver. She was a few years ahead. Who do you see the other pavers as mission to burma yeah yeah yeah yes absolutely so was your class like the dogmatics um scruffy we were yeah definitely peers um yeah uh it's funny because like boston i think within through the looking back through the lens, everything seems to combine and conflate into this. They all hung out together and everyone, there was this cohesive scene. And to an extent that is true, but there were pockets of friend groups, people who played with each other more often. It was like the Neats

the Flies the Dogmatics that you know the neighborhoods the hoods yeah the hoods that was Judy's boyfriend was in the hood

David yeah and they're actually current friends of mine now because the kids went to school together so what do they do now they're he owns a studio

in out there and she sort of supports that and she's we you know again kids both supports that and she's, we, you know,

again, kids, both of us. And everyone's good? He owns a studio in Arlington. Recording studio? Yeah, really great.

In Arlington? In Arlington, Wooly Mammoth, it's great. Wow, so they stayed in the game and made, yeah,

because like, because I talked to, yeah, when I talked to Janowitz, he's a real estate agent and he's fine with it. Yeah. It was such a, he, you know what, I was listening to that interview and I talked to, yeah, when I talked to Janowitz, he's a real estate agent. He's fine with it. Yeah. It was such a.

You know what? I was listening to that interview, and I need to be his PR person right now because he actually runs a niche. A real estate niche? Yes, like absolutely. It's his. It's this sort of mid-century modern, and he does quite well. And he's extremely educated in his. And he loves that architecture as a fan of it. And he doesn't half-ass anything.

That guy? That guy. Yeah. So, I mean, I was listening to it and I was like. You got to get proud of it? Yeah. A little more braggadocio. Well, I think that one of the reasons he might not have is because, you know, that's one of the. Like, I didn't know that stuff about him. You know, like, I don't know well i think that one of the reasons he might not have is because yeah that's

one of the like i didn't know that stuff about him you know like i don't know how people function in in my game like comedy or in your game like when when shit goes not even south yeah but when you just sort of like you know you you've had your shots and it just levels off so how do you survive right so i feel like he was probably speaking from not shame per se, but you know, he was talking about a new Buffalo Tom. Yeah. He didn't seem not proud of it,

but I don't think he was there to plug his real estate business. Right. Exactly. And I'm not here to plug my doula business. But that's sort of kind of fascinating. No, I think it's important actually for people to hear that stuff.

Yeah. Because you know, like so many, because you're still doing what you love doing, and you may have this other thing that you also are engaged with, but can generate a living out of a bit. But there's no shame in that. Right. And I think that people put all their eggs in one basket, and they don't really hear the other stories. Like, they just assume that it's a tragedy.

Like, you know, what happened to that person? Can't be good. And that is like, it's funny, like coming back to the belly thing, which is by far the most high profile thing that I've been involved in. That is the, that's a running question is, what have you been doing? Well, it's been two decades. That's a very difficult question. To sum it up. To sum it up. To sum it up, yeah.

I feel like Bill and I both also are in a similar place where we're quite happy with the way things have panned out for us. And as is everybody in Belly. Everyone's been busy. Everyone has businesses. Collectively, we run our own businesses we have families we have you know um it's a lot but it is you know i understand why you know i i about other artists will be like well they really fell off the radar so i understand you know clearly when someone goes away. But what is that?

But what the fuck is that radar when you really think about it? I mean, we're in our 50s now, right? Yeah. So, you know, it's like who and what determines that radar? Right. Like, see, obviously, you know, you've developed enough of a following to where you can go play gigs with supportive fans, probably of all ages with kids, I'd imagine, at this point in time.

Yes, which is bizarre. But adult children sure it's bizarre but it's it's sort of lovely that you know you can do that when you want to do that and how is that not you know the exact trajectory i mean like even the biggest bands in the world get sad after the fifth or sixth album you know what i mean it's like what is this radar people are talking about you know that when when people start repeating themselves you're like yeah this is not going this is it i guess for the rest of it this is the they're going to play the hits and look like that now as they get yeah

right right and that's a that's a whole other well yeah and then you're sustaining this machine but but i do want i feel like the bandwidth has changed around that though because because everything is so much more porous informationally. Like, there's so much, there's so many streams of communication and information that the radar has changed. There's no... So, it's actually much more inclusive for those of us who have made different choices. Right. And there's also no more late to the party.

different choices. Right. And there's also no more late to the party. Yeah, right, right. Let's say, you know, someone who's a fan of yours from when you were younger is a mom now

and turns her kid on to you. That kid can go online and go all the way back to, you know, throwing muses and then have this whole world open up to them because the technology

allows people to do that. Yes. And that is, that's a recurring story is I found you through the pixies or i found you know throwing music through bill you know that they just that family of bands right um

does have much more of a melting pot oh yeah now than me which is nice yeah anybody like even like me who you think you've been around in somewhat public forever and then people are like i didn't know you were a comic i'm like what the fuck the fuck? How is that possible? No. Sure. Really? Of course. Because now I'm on the Netflix show on Glow. So people are like, who's that guy? And they're like, oh, he's got a podcast.

I'm not Kanye. Of course, most people don't know who we are. So they can all just, all it takes is one search and they're going to be like, what the fuck? There's all these records. Right, right. It's kind of a- Yeah, which is great. It's great.

It's really nice because you don't, I don't have to walk into any situation with my resume. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Which is so nice because it's all been done for me with a click of- Yeah, you built it. That's the upside of it. Yeah. Yeah.

So when you guys, let's go back though. So you sign with 4AD and then you brought the Pixies in. How close were you with those guys? Very close. Still? Yeah. Yep. I mean, not so much.

Kim and I are still friends. Yeah. And Kelly and the whole, all of them. The deal people? Yeah. And Josephine and the whole gym, all of them. But not Francis? Yeah, no, I kind of fell out of touch with him.

What's his real name? Charles. Charles, yeah. Yeah. So, okay, but he's up in, like, no, I kind of fell out of touch with him. What's his real name? Charles. Charles, yeah. Yeah. So, okay, but he's up in like what, the Pacific Northwest somewhere? I don't know where he is. I don't even know where he is. But back in the day, you guys were tight.

Yeah. Do you remember there? Yep, and he actually, my boyfriend Reed at the time, back then, he, Charles and Reed became very close. And Reed still opens for them quite often. So he's kind of- In what band? Hold on to that.

Solo? By himself. So now this is your first... So when do you move to Boston? After you get the record deal? No, we moved to... Yes. Yeah.

Actually, yes. I think that was sort of... That might have been simultaneous. Because it was the year... I want to say it was the summer after high school that we started communicating with Ivo and he became interested. So, yeah, that would have been in that year.

Yeah, and then you made the first record. And then we made the first record. Throwing news record. We demoed with Gary Smith. We sent it, and then we recorded with Gil Norton. And now you're in Boston living where? Somerville or somewhere? Arlington.

All the way out there, Arlington. Yeah, all the way out. I know, that Arlington. All the way out there. Yeah. Arlington. All the way out. I know. That's how we felt when we moved there. We were just, are we going to make this massive five mile leap

into a new area code? God forbid. So you're like through the late 80s, you're like, you're cranking out the records and then Hunky Papa's got like a little hit on it.

And then you're like, you kind of blow up a bit. Yep. Headlining. Yeah. No more opening for the Pixies yeah uh-huh yeah um and and you know at that point there was not you know i just was just starting to write more and that's why i left it wasn't wasn't like a contentious it was just very logistically you know just this is why you left the muses yeah kristin gets this many songs and when my piece started picking up and I started writing more...

Oh, you're like, I need to... I need space. Yeah, get these songs out. And it was going to be a side project. It was going to be their second Breeders record initially that was going to be sort of a side project. Well, how'd you get involved with the Breeders on the first one? Because I love that first record.

Kim and I just really, on the very first because i love that first record kim kim and i just really on the very first pixies muses tour we just really bonded um and became very very close yeah at the end of the tour we just decided to i mean in some ways it was just an excuse to sort of hang out right but also she was feeling sort of the same thing i was which is i'm writing to a lot too and so we started to just kind of meet up at her house and or mine and and write start writing and playing was she out of control yet no yeah no not at that point so no i was i mean i think we started we kind of uh entered our our tricky stages simultaneously, but I bailed sooner. Yeah.

Yeah. That first Breeders record, that's the one with the Happiness is a Warm Gun cover? Yeah. That's such a good record. Yeah. It's so different. It stands alone. Because by the time Last Splash is like, the musical sort of sonic texture of that record

is like a complete kind of mind fuck. But that first one is very clean, really. Yeah, that's very Albini. He did a lot of editing. Pod of pod? Yeah, just sort of stripping off harmonies where they didn't need to be and pairing things down. And he doesn't like to take credit for anything he does.

But watching him at work was pretty inspiring. He loves her. I mean, he loves her beyond like... Yeah. I talked to him. And the way he talks about her after all the artists he's ever produced, it's like he just loves her. Yeah.

She's really, what I mean, I have to say, in terms of inspiration, watching somebody's process, she's one of my, she blows my mind. What about it? Just the way she approaches songwriting and the way she approaches production, and she's so, you know, even when things were messy with us. Between you or just when you were fucked up?

No, no, no. When the two of us were, yeah, were spiraling. She, just the clarity, her clarity, her focus was still always present. You know, she's just very, she knows what she wants. She works until she gets it. She has real vision. And, you know, for someone, I have a more of like a, where's the song going to take me? Where's this going to go?

And she's so in charge. She knows beginning, middle, and end, what she wants. And that's something that rubbed off on me a bit in a very good, you know, in a very positive way for me. Like it's a work ethic thing. Yes, yes. And I've always had a strong work ethic, but hers is, you know, I mean, all-nighters. But did you find that?

Habitually. Right. Just like until it's done kind of work ethic. But do you feel like some of your kind of like, let's see where it takes me was, you know, fueled by some sort of insecurity? Yes. Right. So because like people who are decisive, you know, I have a fear of finishing.

Yeah. Well, because I mean, I feel like some of my fear of finishing is because I feel like that is something that you have to decide. Because music is kinetic and it's not fixed. And so there's never going to be a point where you're sitting with your song and say, there, it's done. And back to Hallelujah. There isn't? No. You have to.

At some point you have to like you at some point you have to pull the trigger uh-huh um and put it lay it down and just right freaking record it right and then and and maybe later live you can uh-huh you know you can keep evolving and moving with it so in your mind all the songs are still active absolutely yeah yeah every every night i think that's just another way of looking at it yeah like i mean maybe some people who are more tight and like sort of like no like you know like i talked like i talked to paul mccartney i don't think he thinks that way like you know where are we gonna go with hey jude tonight right right right yeah yeah no and we're not there believe me yeah not a jam a jam band. There's not that much improvising going on.

No, I know what you mean. It's more just sort of, you know, I just figured out what I want to do with this vocal. I'm going to change this word because it bugs me. Yeah, do it live. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get it.

But I mean, some guys, sometimes they make, I go either way with that, with like old songs when the old bands try to make them fresh. I'm like, really? You're going to speed it up that much if it goes too far um you know we were talking um yesterday to sky daniels about this and kcsn and and just um how dylan you know he'll he's like dylan will be halfway through a song you're like is this like this like Rolling Stone? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I understand that that need to sort of

entertain yourself and keep yourself invested, but there's also, it can go to a point. Well, I think that a lot of Dylan is, there's a lot of fuck you and Dylan.

Yes, which I enjoy. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Where, you know, like he garbles fucking songs for a decade and then he puts out a crooner record. Right. It's almost sort of like, nah, fuck jokes on you, idiots. Yeah, or course. Yeah. Where, you know, like he garbles fucking songs for a decade and then he puts out a crooner

record. It's almost sort of like, nah, jokes on you, idiots. Or, yeah. I mean, I feel like that Victoria's Secret ad was the biggest middle finger too. Like things like that where he's just like. What does he care? You don't know what I'm going to. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just so funny. The guy's just like, you know, he's just like, he's just like human museum out there. Right. You know, moving through time still. He seems to just want to die in a hotel room somewhere in a strange suit. That's like his end game. That's what he's working towards?

Yeah, after playing a state fair somewhere. But it's true. Yeah. With a klezmer band. Yeah. Why wouldn't he go out like that? right. No, I mean,

that sounds, it's fun to observe and I have to say, like, I get it. I love him. I love him too. I love that.

I love that energy. I can't, like, I haven't kept up with him lately. All right. So, okay. So then,

so you and Kim do that, that pod record, which is a great record, and then you get all fucked up on drugs in London. Yeah, not the same, we weren't, not the same drugs. Right. What was your drug? This was a relatively brief time, but it felt like forever. Ecstasy.

Oh, yeah? And coke. Oh, yeah, so a little up, a little down. Yeah, and I'm so, you know, I feel, this is like, it's hard for, you know, I, this isn't something that a lot of people know about me. My friends do, and I have talked about it before, but it's, you know, I'm cagey about getting into it too much because I did sort of walk away from that and left it completely behind. Thinking, I can just make this go away.

I can just erase this. I can excise this part of my life. No, you can't do that. I mean, there's no loose ends. It was just a period. There are no loose ends there are um people that i would like to have some sort of closing argument slash oh yeah hug um you can do that yeah yeah i don't know it's funny because like this belly reunion we the model has been when we first were having an email

conversation about, are we going to get back together? What do you want to do? Should we get a mediator? Do we need to revisit things? So it was people in the band. No, no, no. No, this is a separate thing.

Yeah. Yeah. But we sort of decided that we're going to draw a line in the sand. Yeah. We're going to redline the whole thing. Yeah. We're going to move forward. Right. And we a line in the sand. Yeah. We're going to redline the whole thing. Yeah. We're going to move forward. Right.

And we're not going to revisit. Yeah. And it's been very successful. And I actually feel like I want to apply that to other relationships in my life from this point. Just sort of, you know, face forward, move forward. But discuss it. Discuss. But not drag out.

Yeah. Right. And not do any like real scatological work. Yeah. Right. Do you know, which is what it feels like after a while. Sure. It's just like, why are we digging into this now?

But there is a way, like, you know, like in the program of recovery, which, you know, you were lucky that you didn't get, you know, that that wasn't your life. But there is the amends process, which, you know, creates lucky that you didn't get you know that that wasn't your life but there is the amends process which you know creates a context for that like for for individuals to take responsibility for their side of something and own it to the other person and then whatever goes on goes on but at least you've unburdened yourself to a degree yes right and and that we have done oh good yeah without without being yeah Without being. Yeah. Right. And that is something that I feel like. And, you know, I think I would have done that had we not gotten back together, because this is the this would have been at the end of my life.

My one big regret if I hadn't had this moment. You and Belly. Yeah. Yeah. I have other regrets, but this would have been the one that would have haunted me. With that breaking up the band without closure? Yeah. And just sort of my bad behavior. Everyone's, you know, just sort of in general, just how we... Well, how did it end? It just...

It was... You don't want to drag it up with me. Again. We don't want to go into the... Yeah. You don't want to be that... You don't want to put your hand in the pipe. Yes. i can tell you that i can give you the soil yeah but i can't get tell you what grew there so it was basically like just um 18 months of this is so whiny but we just we

you know we were on this real non-stop road and it felt like we couldn't even sit down or it would all Oh with the touring Yeah After the two records after King Yeah

and just sort of you know you have people we each had you know different voices in our ears with different

expectations our expectations changed and it just very it's not a very interesting story. Right. It's just sort of.

A lot of people pulling at you and you were exhausted. Yes. Right. Yep. And things, and you sort of hit a plateau, you plateaued.

Yeah. Yeah. It was, and it wasn't, it wasn't an explosion. Right. It was a crumble. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But there was still some bad blood or a little resentment. Yeah. Yeah. In the beginning. And then, which at this point, we're sort of like, you know. What was that about? Yes. There was still some bad blood or a little resentment. Yeah, in the beginning. And then, which at this point, we're sort of like, you know. What was that about?

Yes. It's nice to have, like, such a terrible memory, too, which is helpful. It's hard to maintain animosity when you can't remember what. That's age, though, you know? Yeah. That's part of it. So when did you, like, because, you know you know the belly records were great and the and you know obviously the the um i like that breeders record but now like i look and you've done a lot of solo records and you're constantly writing songs and playing and you know you know but when

when did you was there a crisis of like you know what am I going to do now? When did you become a doula? When did that, like, what was the need to do that? That was driven from experiences of my own with my kids where I could have used some postpartum support. Oh, so you're a specific... I mean, I had a lot. My dean is 100% with me on everything. But in terms of just a little more experiential knowledge from someone who had

who had been in this emotional place and you know i feel like there i felt like um i was the classic sort of panicking every second but not accepting any help you know about being a new mother yeah yeah just feeling sort of at sea and scrambling. And just for my usual level of my high functioning level, just to have that be out of my grasp in this extremely important new situation. Of having a baby? Yeah. I think having someone to just say, this is normal. That's fine.

Yeah. Let that go. This is, you know, just, you know, a little clarity. Right. And so. And sometimes if it's a significant other who's there with you all the time, you're going to take out whatever anger or frustration you're having. What do you know? And like, you know it.

Right. Unfortunately. When did you have that first kid? What point in the career was it? That was in 99. It was after my first solo. So you're out of belly already. Yeah. Unfortunately. When did you have that first kid? What point in the career was it? That was in 99. It was after my first solo. So you're out of belly already. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there's a whole new life now. A whole new life. A whole new life. Solo Tanya.

Yep. Family. Yeah. And so the first kid was rough. It was rough. It was just more the learning curve for me was steep and long, but not rough. I mean, I wouldn't say rough because that was just that experience. Now, was Kristen there to help you out?

Yeah, she gave me some tips, but she was touring. Always out there, huh? Always. What kind of room is she playing? I'm not really, you know, it changes sometimes. It depends on what her incarnation is because Cause she is, she still does music. She does 50 foot waves. She's solo.

So, um, she has a, it depends on who she's with. Right. The size of them. It's, you know, clubs to theaters to coffee, you know, it's depending on what she's. Wow. She just loves it. She's just moving all the time. So, so what, like, so do you help people give birth?

No, I, that I was trained initially for birth work, but then I couldn't really weave that into my life very easily. Because you never know what's going to... Yeah, and I can't put my own kids on pause for three days and disappear. So yeah, I moved to postpartum, which is more easily schedulable. And sort of more my, not my area of interest, but I'm better at it. Right. For whatever reason. But that's still considered a doula.

That's a postpartum doula. Yeah. And that business is on hold. I should be clear that I put that on hold to do. You're not taking calls? I'm not taking calls. Okay. No, I've had that since the, you know like the belly tour sure but i'm curious about it so

but when you did it yeah you it was not a decision to stop doing music it was a decision to to help have another stream of income yeah uh and and just to have some other area to be honest um something where i was being helpful to someone else. Yeah, that's a good part of the life. Yeah. Where the focus was not on me. Right. And, yeah, service.

Yeah. That's what, you know, and I felt called to do it, dramatic as that sounds. You know, that this is a way that I can really dig in and be useful. Oh, that's great. Yeah. And how does one train to do that? There are several organizations that you can train through. And what is it? And it depends.

You can kind of tailor your own level of training, too. But where does the doula word come from? Where does that tradition come from? Okay. And it actually means, the word doula actually originally meant female servant. But now it's... But it's like sort of, it feels like a new thing. The field feels new to me.

Is it not? It's not. I mean, it's sort of... I guess there was a midwife back in the day? Yeah. And that actually is where, back in the 60s, it kind of came from, you know of came from that movement, the midwifery movement. And so what you basically do is you go talk to panicking new mothers? We're like, am I holding it right?

Well, it's amazing how, you know, I think every, you know, you just sort of, however you can say to yourself, it's okay if this isn't intuitive. But that's not how it feels. It feels frightening if you're not viscerally just coming up with. So it's frightening and also you're like, why am I not in that? I should be able to just, that kind of thing. Lactation is a big piece of it, but there's also just sleep help and swaddling and just holding the baby while someone takes a shower. I mean, it can be that simple. It's a funny culture, though. because I do, I feel like it does, you know, there are times when I want to say,

you know, your sister just called and said she'd bring food, and you said you've got this. You know, and just say yes, teaching people to say yes. Teaching women to accept help and understand that that doesn't mean they're not succeeding in parenting. That they're not failing and that your sister's not better than you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of issues. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it brings up everything. Oh, I can't imagine. Sure. Like life isn't competitive enough. Exactly. Yes. Now you got to compete about whose kids got what and whether you're doing it right or not. And if you're doing this right and how your choices weigh against other people's choices.

You need a lifetime doula. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's actually my, that's what my husband is always like. You should be a band doula. Bands need doulas. That might be right. That might be right. That might be right.

So now tell me about the audiences. I mean, are these people our age who are like, I remember you, like 50-year-old women with dyed hair still? Absolutely. But then also, you know, Billy had sort of a, we had a big gap between our initial audience um the sort of feed the tree yeah um that was the big hit for you guys right yeah they were solid decade younger than we are yeah because by the time we were already in our that was the first record in our mid-20s was that the first record yeah yeah we were in our mid-20s and the the bulk of our audience was teens through early 20s. So it's still, it really runs.

And like I said, people bring their adult kids and their kid kids. And I think that also, you know, my 19-year-old, her experience of music is so different than mine. It's not necessarily generational. She sort of has a wide scope of stuff that she listens to. Right. So we have that

sort of new crowd also. Right. The people that discovered you. But yes, for the most part, it is us. Uh-huh. It is us. Yeah.

And they're happy, right? They're happy to see you. They're totally happy. And we're happy to see them. It's really very, it's oddly conversational there's a lot of talking that goes on and and um i don't know we just sort of i i like them so much yeah you know it's a very very very positive in that room always yeah and it's

a community in in a way you know these are your people like it's sort of weird the hardcore they're the they're the the hardcore last standers it's really nice but you know it also enables you to to sort of like be comfortable with your your authentic self yes right absolutely yes you have to play games anymore no yeah this yeah it's so so different. Yeah. It feels really good. And I, and you know, I feel like the fact that people genuinely like the new album too

adds, adds, it's not so much a vanity project anymore. Right, right. Or some nostalgia trip. Right, right. Really,

for us, it gives some credence to what we're doing. It makes me feel, makes us feel, you know, relevant. Right. Yeah, relevant. Right.

Yeah, absolutely. And also, not that there's anything wrong with a reunion tour on its own. Yeah. You know, I'm fine.

That would have been fine too if that's all we did. But it's sort of weird because like, you know, obviously you're playing stuff from the first two records, but the thing is,

it's like, it's not really a reunion tour because you released a record and it's a belly record and oddly, as, you know, it's it's informed by everyone's age and wisdom. But you guys have a sound. Yeah, yeah. Right.

And that's not nothing. It's still the same four people. But think about how many people don't have a fucking sound. There are bands out there just plugging away, and they just, they listen to their heroes too much, and you can hear other people in them, you know, and it's not that they're bad musicians, but they haven't, like, landed on that thing that defines them, and you guys have that. Oh, thank you.

That's nice. That's an amazing thing, really. That's very kind. No, it's true. And aside from that, it was great seeing you. It was great seeing you, too. I'm happy to see you again. Yeah, me too. And congratulations on everything that it was great seeing you. It was great seeing you, too. I'm happy to see you again. Yeah, me too.

And congratulations on everything that... Well, thank you. We were in the car on the way here, and Jess sits in my fence with me and was like, I think Paul McCartney was there yesterday. No, he wasn't here. Well, I was like, I said, I was quiet for a second. I said, am I the least auspicious person he's ever talked to? No.

No. No. I don't even know what auspicious means, I don't second. I said, am I the least auspicious person he's ever talked to? No. No. No. I don't even know what auspicious means, I don't think. I want that. What is auspicious? That's the title. What is it? You know, celebrated.

Oh, no, no, no. I know, no. I've had, you're definitely not the least auspicious. I want it carved. I want that to be. The least, you want to be the least auspicious? I want that to be my, yes. Well, to set the record straight, he didn't come here.

I had to sort of like, I got included in a Capitol Records event where he was a special surprise guest at this yearly thing they do, this confab. Oh, oh. So it was sort of an in-house thing where I agreed to do it if I could use the podcast. So I talked to him in front of 800 people. It was not like this candid. That's great. It is, but I wonder what it would have been like if it was like this.

Like right here. It's a very different thing doing a live thing, especially with an entertainer like him who's got this. He's got his thing down. Sure. When you live in front of an audience, you naturally are going to. It's a different thing, but it was still pretty good. It was pretty good. Right.

But this was nice for me because I'm not reminiscing about a Beatles history. We have a lot of shared history. It was nice seeing you. It was really nice to see you, too. Thanks for coming. Yeah. and you. It was really nice to see you too. Thanks for coming.

Tanya Donnelly, what a nice catch-up. Not catch-up. What a nice catch-up session we had. Belly's new album, Dove, is available wherever you get music and it's exciting. It sounds like a Belly record and they haven't done a Belly record in 23 years.

It's nice. I'm on the road, no guitar. Just one jazz phrase from my mouth trumpet. Boomer lives! That was a real flim. We'll be right back. Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken

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