WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 950 - Adam Cayton-Holland

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

Comedian, actor and writer Adam Cayton-Holland didn't plan on having a memoir in his 30s. But Adam's life took a stunning turn when his sister took her life six years ago and the grief process ran through the writing. Adam and Marc talk about hereditary mental illness, the urge to romanticize depression and self-destruction in comedy, and navigating the aftermath of a family tragedy. Adam also remembers what it was like to discover alt-comedy while living in Denver and wonders about the future of his TV series Those Who Can't. This episode is sponsored by Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 11/9 and SimpliSafe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fuckeristas? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Wow. It's called WTF.

That's a brain fart, brain skid, bubble in my head. Man, WTF. Yeah, I'd like to open the show in a couple ways. First, by quoting myself when I almost just spilled my iced tea on my computer keyboard. You ready? Here's what that sounded like. Oh, God. And then I caught it.

Oh, God. Yeah, right out loud to, God. And then I caught it. Oh, God. Yeah, right out loud to myself right here. And I caught it. A small victory. And another thing I'd like to say, today on the show, Adam Caton Holland is here. He's going to be talking about his new book, Tragedy Plus Time. It's a heavy book, but it's written with a lot of heart and a lot of humor. It's about the death of his sister by her own hand uh it deals with grief it deals with moving through grief it deals with family and and it's done uh with uh you know like it's it's a good book

and he's a he's a good uh a good guy and it was a great talk but also along those lines in terms of things that are out of control, feeling grief, feeling impending darkness, sadness, all of it. I would like to reach out to all of my fans and people who listen in the Carolinas and Virginia and Washington, D.C. You know, if it gets up that high, this hurricane is is seems like it's going to be a fucking heinous horrendous nightmare uh i refuse to use the trumpian term tremendous doesn't seem correct uh but it does seem like it's going to be uh a quite an ordeal and uh i just wanted to say hello and we're thinking about you and that i hope you have my podcast with you. Not on any sort of business level, just that it might be a way to while away the time as the rain

pounds down. I hope you're safe. I hope you've done the right thing and left the centers of the storm. And again, I hope that I can offer some solace, some comfort, even if it's just by having conversations that you can listen to. And I know that sometimes my voice coupled with pounding rain on a ceiling has a certain effect to it i i do record some of my monologues specifically to be to be heard uh with the backdrop of pounding rain that could actually maybe take your ceiling out so so this is one of them so it should be coupling nicely and uh i hope you got enough food i hope you got enough uh energy in terms of uh if you need generator, I hope that's available and I hope your family's safe and that's all. And I hope we can ride this out. And without politicizing it, I'd like to say

that the size and scope of these storms and the time in between them are indicative of a global warming trend that is causing extreme climate change and extreme weather. So you can blame God, you can blame coincidence, but we can also blame ourselves a little bit and then take it a step further and go ahead and blame President fuck you, go fuck yourself, fuck it all. That's his three names for accelerating it by deregulating and pulling out of all agreements. Now, again, I didn't want to politicize it, but that being said, I hope you're well. I hope I can lighten you up a little bit.

Maybe it's not even happened yet. I mean, it's Thursday. I'm recording this Wednesday. I'm just putting it out there. It's just like it all becomes sort of horrendous and kind of weighty and i was thinking about this today in talking to adam kate and holland and also in um just knowing that you know i talked to my father yesterday that my my parents are still alive and they're getting old and my cat lafonda's got a growth on her mouth i don't't know what that is. I got to take her in tomorrow. And it's just that this, these parts of life dealing with tragedy, dealing with acts of nature that are

completely devastating and out of her control is, is something that we all have to do to some degree. And obviously we all have to deal with, uh, with grief and with, uh, people passing. And I've been fortunate that I haven't quite had to deal with that yet in terms of my parents. And then when my cat gets something on her face, it hits me that I might be fairly immature about how I see it. I mean, I know I'm going to die, but I haven't processed it in that way. But I think we're built for it.

I think we're built to take it. I think we're built to move through it. i think we're built to move through it i think we're built to uh to help others through it and i think that's the right way to be what am i talking about why am i talking like this well i got this email that just leveled me and um it was about my Paul McCartney episode. It's beautiful. It is a testament to the human spirit is uplifting and touching in its own way. But it's real. And a lot of us are dealing with real stuff every day.

And I don't know that I speak to you that that often because I try to avoid that but this is an episode that kind of deals with a lot of that so it might be it might be relevant and and also human and I should talk about it I'm going to read this to you it's going to hurt a little bit but it is beautiful and then uh you know I'll do something more light-hearted after in relation to my uh water kettle conversation that seems to have resonated with quite a few people. But do brace yourself a little bit. It is emotional and it is uplifting. The subject line, Paul McCartney podcast for my late wife.

Thank you. Dear Mark, I've been listening to your podcast from almost the beginning. I think I like them mostly because you and so many of your guests are and live in a world that's so completely different from mine. After your interviews with Keith Richards and Mick Jagger a while ago, I was always hoping you would be able to get either Paul or Ringo on the podcast because the Beatles were by far my late wife's favorite. Like for many of your musical guests, their performance on The Ed Sullivan Show was one of her all-time favorite memories. She had been suffering from severe depression for a long time

and was unfortunately diagnosed with a stage 4 brain tumor earlier this year. After deciding not to get treatment, she passed away in May. The interview with Sir Paul would have made her day, and it actually did in a way. Instead of just listening to it during my workout or drive to work, I went to the cemetery and listened to it with her in spirit at her graveside. I was able to spend a wonderful hour with her and you and Sir Paul. Thank you, Felix. Well, you know, that's it, man. You know, that is the human spirit right there

to be able to sort of process grief, compartmentalize it, move on into your life, and then still sort of take that time to share and have memories that are good and make new ones in your heart and in your mind with people that have passed or no longer with you or with us. So I hope that was beautiful and not too heavy. I just, it really got me. So moving on, I do want to start talking a bit about, you know, if you believe in your heart that change is possible and that uh we can move through this uh dumpster fire that we're in uh you know start thinking about you know who your candidates are how you want to help out and getting out there and uh you know mobilizing to get people to vote in these midterms that are coming up they're important and also to uh you know to really reflect on you know the nature of where the country is a little bit right a little

bit a little bit you know we have a an administration that uh uh you know tortures children as a warning to uh families who are in desperate need for a different life. And they thought one in America was possible because the America that once was, uh, was a, uh, hopeful place. We no longer live in a hopeful place and on an administrative level. And, uh, it'd be nice if we got back to that. Look, I'm not a huge believer in, uh, in hope in general. You know, I, i do see hope as the the uh eternal companion of denial in some ways but sometimes it's necessary to get through and uh we got to find some and some of that looks like it's going to manifest itself in these november elections and all we can do is hope the voting works but you can't get out there and make it undeniable. So those numbers can't lie. So

do that, would you? Not trying to be heavy handed, just concerned. So the kettle conversation, let's continue that. I talked to you about my ridiculous clown-like righteous indignation about a hotel. I stayed out not having a kettle. And by the way, I heard from the woman, if you listened to the last show, the pregnant woman who was there when I came back with the kettle. And I wrote back, I'm sorry if I was a bit cranky. It was nice meeting you.

I said something like that. She goes, no, you were great. It was nice talking to you. And again, that Midwestern politeness. But I think it's genuine. But I was a dick. Not really to her, but just I was vibing. I was exuding dickishness.

So I'm glad that it didn't offend her. So here's what I was going to tell you about the kettle thing. I got a Twitter, someone on Twitter, which I do look at occasionally, but I do not tweet much a fan uh suggested this travel tea kettle which i bought it looks like it's it's a little bulkier than than something incredibly portable but it does look like it'll do the thing it's like a little seven cup tea kettle that that i'm i will bring i'm thinking about calling ahead now since i am fully into the ritual of tea making because that's my thing now.

That's what gets me going. But here's the downside of hotel kettles. Now, look, I can't validate this information entirely. But I got this email, hotelkettles-no! Mark, you might want to reconsider your hotel tea strategy. At times, I travel a lot for business, especially to Asia, where virtually every hotel room has a device to boil water. For a couple of years, I carried an AeroPress,

a fantastic lightweight coffee, compact coffee maker, until I saw this. And he posted, he put a link to an article and i will read you the headline i will read you the clickbait i guess but i don't know it's uh some hotel guests boil their underwear in the kettles to clean them you're going to think twice about making yourself a cuppa at the hotel after knowing what some hotel guests do with it. Wow. Didn't need to know that. And it goes on to say that, you know, someone tweeted to see if this is a thing. And it turns out it might be a thing. And then it talks about how it's not great, you know, bacterially, obviously.

I don't know how widespread this is. And I don't really want to give anybody any ideas but this is the two sides of this is that i i got a warning about boiling water and what may have been just a uh a fecal urinary soup that was in there before and uh and then I got the heads up to a travel device. And I'm going with the latter option. Okay. Just a heads up. I'll probably still use the kettle in the room. So Adam Caden Holland is a guy that I met in Denver years ago.

He middled for me once. I actually thought at the beginning, at the outset of this conversation, that I may have had some tension with him, but we didn't. And his book is a really lovely book and a heavy book, but a great book, a human book. And it's called Tragedy Plus Time. It's available wherever you get books. You can also get his comedy album. Adam Caton Holland performs his signature bits on Comedy Central Records. And this was a nice conversation about a lot of things, about comedy, comedy album adam caton holland performs his signature bits on comedy central records and uh this was a nice conversation about a lot of things about comedy about loss about uh just how sometimes

people do fucking incomprehensible things and uh and some of that involves um taking their own life so this is me and adam caton hoand. Don't be afraid of it. It's a very good conversation. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance,

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to show your true heart just to risk your life will i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. So wait, you still live in Denver? I do. Yeah, I just come out here when we shoot for production and the writing of it. For those who can't? Yeah, so the past three summers I've lived in L.A.,

but this summer is the first one where I'm back home. Why is that? Because we're in flux. We don't know what's going to happen with the show. It comes out in the fall. Right.

So we'll see if we get a season four or not. Oh, so you already shot the season three. We shot it last summer and we've just been sitting on it for a while. Really? Yeah, which sucks. What determines that on an outlet like TruTV?

According to them, it's AT&T acquiring Turner has sort of slowed the process. Oh, yeah? You don't buy it? What would you do? What would you think to that? It just sounds like the show keeps getting pushed back in my estimation. What can you do? I mean, you know, it's like I don't know what they – there doesn't seem to be any real rules to anything.

Well, when people are talking to you about Turner and AT&T, you're like, yeah, I don't think those who can't is really a high priority in those conversations. Well, maybe the people who are actually in charge of your situation are worried about their jobs. I think that might be it. And according to them, they're saying they wanted to have an impressive, you know, quarter three and quarter four to show their new corporate overlords. So they were pushing us back. Oh, so they're saying they're holding. They're saying it's a good thing, Mark. Right.

They're holding out. Yeah. Because they want to really wow the new guy. Forget about it. Nothing like a year old comedy, just properly aged and baked. I don't think I like, I can't remember. Do you remember when you middled for me? Yes, I do, at Comedy Works.

No, I know, but how long ago was that? I don't know, five, six years ago. Right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I remember, and then I remember, I can't remember, like, I was trying to figure it out if we ever had an issue. I don't think we did, but I think I know what might have sort of... I think you wrote something. Is that possible?

Here's my first interaction with you. It was a nice interaction. I was a journalist, and I interviewed Hedberg. Right. And so on the anniversary of his death, I think it was a five-year anniversary, I put out this 20-minute audio recording where I was a really green open-miker and interviewing him, and he was very generous. And then you, I didn't know you,

you retweeted that and, like, crashed my website because I was not ready for that traffic. Right. And so you're like, hey, bud, crashed your website. Like, might want to get that up and running. But I appreciated the retweet. It was cool. And then I did a comedy festival in Denver.

Yeah. And I still do it, the High Plains Comedy Festival. Oh, that's okay. Now it's cool and then i did a comedy festival in denver yeah i still do it the high plains comedy oh that's okay now it's coming together so i wait let me just try to remember i went out to that festival you did i got an email from comedy works you were at comedy works that weekend oh okay and it was the first weekend of my festival right and somehow it came down from on high that marin was pissed there was an indie comedy festival going on in town the weekend he's in town right club so we were like well does he want to come be a part of it and so we kind of promoed your shows oh that's right and you stopped in on my podcast right which i no longer do the live podcast which was a carbon copy of your life podcasts and you were like yeah this looks

familiar man that wasn't it was that but i don't feel like I left thinking you were shitty or anything. No, I think we're on good terms. Good, good. You were very nice. It was nice of you to come over. You were cool. You gave me the appropriate amount of shit. It was great.

It was fun. So we resolved it. Totally. In real time. Totally. So you grew up there. How long have you been doing comedy now? 14 years, man.

It has been that long. Yeah. You know, that long. Yeah. You know, full time since 2009. I got laid off from that journalism job. What was it? You wrote for the weekly? Yeah. It's called Westward.

It's the alt weekly. Why would they lay you off? You were like, you know, you're a good writer. I don't know. Media's dying. Oh, right. It's a hard copy paper. And I think also there were like journalists me who were legit journalists that had kids.

And long-form journalism was their dream. And my editor knew I was out doing comedy every night. I wanted that more. So I think it was kind of like cut the 29-year-old kid or the 50-year-old guy who's been here for 30 years. 30 years some guys were there? Oh, yeah. There's some diehard journalists that have been there. There's some good writing out of that paper. But like in Denver, I remember, I grew up in New Mexico, so I feel like we're neighbors

somehow. Yeah, our states touch. Yeah, I feel like, you know, I grew up in Albuquerque. I used to drive up occasionally to Mile High Stadium to see the big concerts, like the old Mile High where they still had the horse on top. Oh yeah, and they would shake. That stadium was... What concerts did you see there?

I saw Sunday Jam 2. I think it was like UFO, The Cars, Heart, The Rockets, and for some reason, I think it might have been Ted Nugent. It was a big deal. Then I saw Richie Blackmore's Rainbow up there once because my buddy Dave wanted to see him. I can't remember what club it was at, but I know that John Cougar was opening for them. Wow, that's great. And I thought they were great.

I wasn't a Rainbow fan. It was before he was John Cougar Mellencamp. My wife loves Mellencamp. Really? She loves him. I knew him cursory. I knew a little bit, but she's got every record. She's a full Mellencamp fan? Oh him still so yeah I think her dad listened to it a lot growing up

with her but she loves Mellencamp oh yeah it's passed down yeah no really no one no one finds it on their own Mellencamp springs eternal I wouldn't think somebody of your generation would find it on their own I guess they grew up with it yeah yeah she's an old soul I was always you know Springsteen so it's like the Springsteen-Mellencamp debate. There's a debate? I mean, between us. Often over bottles of wine and YouTube videos. I guess I could see that later in Mellencamp's career, he kind of took on the kind of spokesperson for the downtrodden role.

Working class hero. Yeah, right, yeah. But there is no debate. It's Springsteen, come on. Yeah, man. I mean, Springsteen is great. But Denver, so you were born in denver born in denver raised there i went to college out east lived in chicago and new york lived in spain and then i went back to denver yeah i mean it's a nice city it's a little hard to breathe and people get easily drunk there

yeah that's for sure especially ones that go to comedy shows that downtown area man sometimes it's like what is fucking happening? When they drop a comic in there, I'm like, somebody pick this comic up and take them elsewhere. Because this neighborhood is just, it's a shit show. It's like Pop Collar Bros. You can hear the clap of vomit around 2 p.m. or 2 a.m. Yeah. But it's like Glasgow some nights.

It's just fucking puke and crazies all over the place. It's ridiculous. Denver party's way too hard. Well, I mean, also, like, I went to, Doug Benson had a show one weekend when I was there, and they had to call the ambulance. Really? Yeah, someone went down somehow. And now they got the legal weed first, like, were one of the first, and it's like, that's

all that town needed. Well, it's like everybody thinks Denver's a pot city now, and I'm just nostalgic for the days. It's like, no, we're just drunks, man. Yeah. This new pot wave. But what it, like, so, like, I got the book, you know, and I've gone through a bit of it,

and it's very sad and hard. Yeah. Tragedy plus time. A tragic comic memoir that you wrote here. Now, before we get into the the subject of it what i mean how did you did who puts who's putting this book out uh simon and schuster oh so it's like a big deal yeah yeah i mean it's an imprint on of them touchstone but right under uh under simon and schuster and now when did your sister uh commit suicide six years ago like a week ago oh really

yeah yeah july's are always really hard because her birthday was july 23rd and then her death day is july 31st so july's suck man wow yeah and how old was she she was 28 yeah i don't it's like i can't imagine the you know what it must be like though i did grow up with a depressive. Yeah, your father, right? Yeah. And when you were growing up, I mean, did you know, you had it as well? Yeah, in college it got to its worst.

But where in the family, were you able to track it? Yeah, I mean, I'm learning a lot more about this. I think most families have some mental illness in their lineage. You know, there's a chapter in there where Lydia sort of first broke down, and my buddy was like, well, is there a history of mental illness in your family? And I was like, oh, yeah, there totally. And my dad's sister, you know, was in and out of mental institutions. He grew up out here in L.A. and, you know, fucked up electroshock stuff in the 60s.

And she didn't commit suicide, but she had a pretty upsetting life and a lot of pills. So that was my dad's sister. And on my mom's side, there was a cousin who killed himself. And you go further back, there's numerous mentally ill people

on both sides of the clan. Your dad grew up here? Yeah. Is his family here? They're all dead. He had an interesting, his dad was an art dealer out here, like a hot shit Beverly Hills art dealer. His name was Milton Holland. Oh, yeah?

And he was like, I mean, he had lots of famous celebs. My dad inherited a lot of his art, so we got great art. Oh, really? Milton died when I was three, but I really wish I could have had this Beverly Hills art dealer grandpa to bomb around with. Wow, so he grew up in Beverly Hills? Yeah, he grew up in, where's OJ?

Brentwood? Brentwood, yeah. Yeah, he grew up out there. But my dad's a big hippie. He's a civil rights lawyer. Still? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he kind of, you know,

the 60s little fire under his ass. And he went and got a law degree and kind of left LA with his middle finger up and joined Legal Aid, which sent basically law for poor people. And they sent him to Denver. And then he just set up a firm there. And he does all, my sister works with him as well. They do ridiculous stuff.

In the book, you talk about how he was down in Guantanamo. Yeah, he's gotten two people out of Guantanamo. He was in Guantanamo yeah he's gotten two two people out of guantanamo so he was he was in guantanamo when lydia died yeah yeah so he's sort of a big shot big shot he is but he's a big shot you know he's he's a crusader for the side of right yeah big big in the americans with disabilities act like my dad's he's great and how's he feeling now? You know, he's fired up. He's 72, so I don't think he's got the fight he had in him when he was a young man. But, you know, he's like we all feel. Isn't that the same age as our garbage fire president?

It is the same age. He seems pretty fired up. He does. Well, I guess my dad should kind of raise his level of vitriol. But he's still working? He is still working. And your sister, is it just part of the firm? Yep, she's been folded in.

She's a partner. Yeah, Anna. So, all right, so you're growing up, and when does it start manifesting itself? In myself or in Lydia? Well, I mean, it seems like, yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess Lydia because, like, it seems like

if you all had it, someone must have known it, but your dad doesn't. No. Well, here's the thing, and I think you could probably relate to this. We were all dark.

All three of us were dark kids. We have dark senses of humor. Morbid sense of humor, yeah. Morbid sense, and like any sort of smart kid,

you tend to fetishize the twisted genius. You know, we like Elliot Smith. That's true, that's true, yeah. You know, we like Kurt Cobain, Vincent Van Gogh. Yeah, no, yeah, right. All my favorite artists killed themselves. Right.

And you're sort of, I don't know, there's an urge to romanticize that until it hits you in the face. I guess that's true that it's not everybody that thinks that. You know, because I have the same thing. And my brother, who also is like a bit of a depressive as well, like the morbid sort of self-deprecating kind of gallows humor, like that you think is like, you know, I'm the same as you,

that, you know, when I started doing comedy, that was the area that you wanted to mine because it was shocking and it was a little disturbing. But if you listen back on some of that, do you ever find like that's sort of sad? Yeah, absolutely. It's like I had a line. I don't know if it was in the book proposal, but, you know, we had a really ideal upbringing and there wasn't any darkness. So we almost had to like seek it out yeah and uh what a privileged place to be at to go try to find your anguish right and i remember there's a line in the book proposal where lydia would have said to me after this

like congratulations i just made your art worth a shit yeah and then i was like you know lydia would have laughed at that right right yeah that's how our senses of humor were. So for any of us to sort of go a little further and deeper, I don't think was all that surprising or all that big of a red flag because we lived there. Well, I mean, like in terms, because I try to think about it in my own life because I don't know that I'm depressive. I can't identify it sometimes.

I know that I'm anxious and i'm yeah and i'm full of dread and uh you know i'm aggravated all the time but my my my humor has sort of shifted i believe but there is a sort of sense of um like an entitled self-pity to it totally and i mean you and i know the trope of the fucked up dark comedian right how. How many times, like before this happened, somebody interviewed me one time and they're like, you're so normal. You come from such a good family. Like, how are you funny? Yeah.

And I always resented that. Right. It's like, because I'm funny, man, because I'm sensitive. I'm sorry I'm not fighting some divorce or something, you know? Yeah, sensitivity is part of it. Sensitivity is part of it. So we admire those comics that go to that place, whether it's false or not. But it's weird.

Who are they really? Because I mean, I know those comics kind of, but I mean, when you really think about that tone of humor, outside of people that were kind of hell-bent

on killing themselves. Right, right. In terms of comedians, who are the depressives other than Rodney Dangerfield and Jackie Ver- Like who- Like I know people are the depressives you know other than you know rodney dangerfield and jackie vert like who like i know people are like richard lewis has depression right right right but i don't hear it in his comedy so much you know yeah i mean maria banford yeah that's just a that is like a shattered vessel yeah yeah um a beautifully shattered vessel of course i love maria she's the best but i don't

know man i don't know who those guys are but i think it's something that we we romanticize self-destruction exactly and we think it's somehow more authentic right and it's not no it's so not and when you like when you almost pine for your tragedy or where's where's my defining moment and then it happens you realize you're like what an asshole i was to ever be pretending to be depressed like what do you like or just what would that be for you like what do you mean like the defining moment well i mean lydia with lydia yeah yeah i mean what i guess i'm trying to say clumsily is that you think you're dark and fucked up until something really happens and then you're like wow you had it good. You weren't dark and fucked up at all. Right.

Now you are. Right. But like, you know, relative to like, you know, losing a limb or, you know, you talk about a bit in the book about, you know, these horrible sort of events that happen in Colorado. Yeah, right. You know, the mass shootings and whatnot,

like to be part of that. But the brain is a pretty, you know, can be a pretty nasty place to live. Right. Absolutely. And, and it, you know, like, I don't like, I, that's the sad thing about depression is like, you know, it isn't explainable. And, and like a lot of people believe that people who are depressed or somehow self-pitying or martyring themselves or just, you know, can't, but like people who have the real clinical stuff, it's like terrible. It is, and it's shocking. You know, with this book,

I didn't want it to be this sad thing about Lydia. I wanted it to be a celebration of her and kind of a tribute of her because what was shocking about it all is, like you were saying, were there signs growing up? Not really, because we all had all the signs. OCD, anxiety, depression. We had all that stuff.

It just never seemed as severe as it was for Lydia. But, you know, from 26 to 28, I watched that girl's brain just change completely. And so the last two years, you know, she was there all the time. It was my sister, but then there was this dark doppelganger that was like, who the fuck is this girl?

Were they just carrying that weight around? Yeah, and just being flaky in ways she hadn't been before and breaking down in ways she hadn't before. And it just came on so fast. And suddenly that by the time it was all done, it was just like, what the fuck? Just like a train just blew through our family, taking one of us out.

And it was horrible to watch. It was the worst thing ever man and there was no like substance abuse and tied into it or nothing well she was going from shrink to shrink and getting she was very smart like truly very smart yeah and i think she was out foxing many of her shrinks right and getting prescribed what she wanted right and then getting that and going on to the next one so you know all sorts of anxiety medications, sleep medications. And she overdosed twice on pills. I mean, you name it.

On purpose. Well, the first one, I mean, yes, in hindsight, on purpose. The first one, we believed her. It was an accident. She got her medication wrong. Second one, it was on Father's Day. Nice Father's Day. she got her medication wrong second one it was on father's day nice nice father's day huh um that one you know i picked her up off the floor of her bathroom and we're like took her to the hospital and that one was a mandatory psych hold for three days and you know that was about a month before

she killed herself so so like what what was she doing? Like, you know, your family seems, you know, from the parts that I read, like, they're awfully tight-knit. Yeah. I call us in the book the Magnificent Kate and Hollins. And somebody else said that about us, but I think there's always been a sort of Royal Tenenbaum-esque quality to my family. Oh, yeah. What's your mom do?

She was a journalist. She was an investigative journalist for years. Huh. That's how she met my dad, right, in about one of his his cases uh-huh um but they were just kind of bad asses and then my sister anna you know she's a hot she's a great civil rights lawyer but growing up she was a big figure skater olympic track you know just impressive children what about you what'd you do come on found my way to dick jokes no but, but like when you were growing up, what was your trip? I was pretty, you know, I played soccer and baseball, but I was big into comic books.

I wanted to draw comics. Oh, you are? Yeah, but not like cool Avengers. Which ones? Like, you know, Calvin and Hobbes. That was my jam. Oh, really? That was my jam.

You kind of wanted to do a daily strip kind of deal? Yeah, and I would read every manner of garbage comic. I liked Archie. It didn't matter. Like Sunday paper, I'd read every manner of garbage comic. I liked Archie. It didn't matter. Like Sunday paper, I'd read every single comic. So I wanted to do that. Did you draw? Yeah, I drew really well until about like seventh grade

when my abilities just stopped there. And I was like always one of the best in the class. And then something about eighth grade, everybody turned a corner that I didn't turn. Really? You couldn't? I put the pen down. Perspective?

No. Something three point? When people started doing this 3D stuff, I was like, I'm out pen down. Perspective? No. Something three point. Exactly. When people started doing this 3D stuff, I was like, I'm out. I don't understand this at all. That's a box. It looks like a box. How do you do that? Keep me in like the Flemish era.

I can do 2D. Yeah. Medieval. Right. So, all right. So, seventh grade, you give up your career as a comic book artist. And seven, big loss. And then what was the interest?

I mean, I started in high school writing and like humor writing. I remember picking up an onion like it was a religious experience. They were in Madison and one of the first places they distributed outside of Madison was Boulder. Yeah.

So Colorado kids got it a little earlier. Oh, yeah. And I was on the newspaper staff and I was like, I remember the first article I ever saw was like, Christ returns to the NBA, and it's just Jesus dunking. And my brain did somersaults. I was like, you can do this?

And so from then on out, that high school newspaper was just our little onion copycat. We went nuts. And then in college, I did the same thing, like wrote a humor paper. Where'd you go to college? Wesleyan. Oh, yeah, in Boston? Connecticut. Connecticut? Yeah. I was classmates with Lin-Manuel Miranda. Yeah? and then in college I did the same thing like wrote a humor paper where'd you go to college Wesleyan oh yeah

Connecticut Connecticut yeah I was classmates with Lin-Manuel Miranda yeah so I'll never be the most famous alum

from Wesleyan University no you got a ways to go yeah I got a ways to go yeah this is a good start sure I've talked to him

he's a great guy he's a cool guy I knew him but you know I knew him and everyone knew he was very impressive are you the same age

yeah same class but he was very impressive. Are you the same age? Yeah, same class. But he was also the theater rapper kid, which couldn't have been farther from where I was at. So I respected what he did, but I was like, our circles didn't interact. What were you doing? Drinking and vandalizing. I almost got expelled from Wesleyan.

That's when I was depressed, man. That's when I was most depressed. But do you feel like it was different? As you're heading out of high school, were you a comedy fan in high school? I was, but I'm not your typical, I was more like comedy movies, you know. Not a stand-up.

Not a stand-up. I never watched stand-up growing up, never. I mean, as far as I was concerned, the only stand-up I knew was like Uncle Joey on Full House. I was like, he did stand-up, right, on Star Search? Yeah. I didn't do standup growing up, never. I mean, as far as I was concerned, the only standup I knew was like Uncle Joey on Full House. I was like, he did standup, right, on Star Search? I didn't really worship at the altar of comics. But you liked The Simpsons. I loved The Simpsons.

I loved- So you were a full-on animated guy. Yeah, I was a comedy nerd. I was just- Not standup. Not standup. And I don't know, I just found my way to that organically, but it wasn't something that I pursued. I kind of fell ass backwards into it. So now, like, when you're going to college, your sister's already in law school, right?

The older sister? No, Anna was at Wesleyan. I followed her to Wesleyan. So she was just a couple years ahead of you? Two years ahead of me. And where was Lydia? Lydia was four years below us, so she's back in Denver and still in high school. And what's she doing?

Dyeing her hair blue, playing instruments, being a little punk rocker. Oh, okay. Yeah. For me, it was like, truthfully, when I graduated from high school, everyone's like, hey, that Adam Catenholland, he's number three in the class,

editor-in-chief of the paper, soccer player. That's a good kid. Keep your eye on him. And then I went to Wesleyan. Who's saying that? Your head? I think there was a lot of pride people were proud of me

I was a son of Denver off to do good things at a good school oh good and then you get to Wesleyan and there's Lin-Manuel Miranda's running around right

and you realize you ain't shit and so I think that I think it was just an ego check oh yeah that nobody cared about me or thought I was great

or any of that so that just sent me down a rabbit hole, man. Soul got kicked in the balls a little bit. Big time. And you just, what, crumbled? I did. I didn't rise to meet it at all.

I just started doing drugs more than I've ever done and drinking more than I've ever done and vandalizing a lot. What does that mean? Vandalizing? I know what vandalizing means, but give me some examples. Well, the reason I got almost expelled was I broke the president of the university's like office window i shattered that with a big stick in the middle of the night

on purpose on purpose with by yourself or with others by myself oh wow i was you weren't even out to impress no man i was just out to make noise uh but it was two years of that dumb shit knocking over breaking windows knocking over the ticket booth at the football game every day. So eventually it exploded. Again by yourself? Or with friends sometimes. It was just anger. I just wanted to know whether or not you're just this weird kid that nobody understood.

I think it was a see something, say something for sure. I was spinning out. Yeah. And I was very depressed and I was somewhat suicidal. What were the drugs? Coke. Yeah. Acid. Acid? Yeah. Yeah. I also had suicidal. What were the drugs? Coke, acid. Acid?

Yeah. Yeah. I also had this- Where'd that get you? Did it help? I went to a fish concert in downtown New Haven and did acid and still was like, I hate fish. And I left. I left and wandered around downtown New Haven.

Which is no party. No, man. Downtown New Haven. Yeah, that was- Can get a little hairy in some places. Doing dumb shit like that. Well, that's college in a way of a certain kind. Sure, sure.

But the way I was doing it was reckless and there was a bit of a death wish to a lot of it. You were actively suicidal? Yeah. Like in your head? Yeah. But did you feel that it was a about a biological thing or did you were you you know genuinely like you know lost or like frustrated like with your life i was

frustrated with my life and i couldn't sleep at all so i would wake up in the middle of the night and like walk around the campus like a ghost and just it was just sad it was a dark spot man and i couldn't really see a way to pull myself out of it were you writing i was writing like garbage poetry and shit yeah i mean truly trash wannabe beatnik awful shit well that's what you can that's what the college thing to do right sure of course i mean that's what we do i mean i've got you I've got some poems out there. I would love to read those poems. I think I've, I don't know if I've made them available or not.

Well, I edited the literary journal one year and I was in it another year. But I found that I was doing those same things that it sounds like you were doing, that they're just so I can stay connected to you here. But for me, it was like, who am I? Do you know what I mean? I didn't really define myself in high school with athletics or anything. Right.

So it was sort of like I did theater in high school, I wrote for the paper, or not in high school, in college. I did drugs, and I romanticized all those people. Sure. And I don't, I think that's sort of okay. I think it's very okay. For me, it took almost getting expelled. For which one?

For the breaking of the president's window was the culmination. How'd they catch you? In the act. How'd they, oh. I thought you did it at night. I did. But there's public safety officers out there. And I remember literally the glass was like raining down on me.

It cut my face all up. And was this a political action? Not really, man. It was just me breaking shit. I kind of knew it was the president's window. I was like, that'll piss them off. Who's them? I don't know.

The people that are educating me. Yeah. Those assholes. Those assholes. I should have gotten into Yale, God damn it. Trying to educate you.'re gonna pay i got caught in the act and then they kicked me off campus immediately and i had to go my older sister was there at the time so she kind of showed her lawyer feathers she accompanied me to every meeting she helped me get out of that situation undergrad still yeah she was a senior

i was a sophomore and now but she never once said like jesus what the fuck oh big time she said what the fuck i remember vividly there was this every year there's a spring fling the big concert on campus i think dead prez was playing her senior spring fling and we're sitting in a dean's office looking out the window as the whole campus is just partying yeah and i'm in there and she's in like a hillary pantsuit yeah and she's like you're such a fuck up like i should be out there with my friends like fuck you and then she said you don't say a word in there you don't say a word and i was like and she all right she took care of it and got you off well i had to do like mandatory psychological counseling for rage issues and i had to do a bunch of community service and I had to pay for all the damage.

And I was on probation for the rest of my time at Wesleyan. What kind of community service? Well, I went back home to Denver and I worked at a elementary school summer program with, you know, poor kids. Did that humble you? The whole thing humbled me. Having it, and then I went away.

It's so cliche, Jesus. Then I went and studied abroad in Spain and was like, oh, the world's bigger than me and Wesleyan. And I came back second semester and I was like, let's not waste this opportunity. Oh really? Did the second half of college a lot better. Yeah? Yeah.

And what'd you end up majoring in? Film. Oh yeah? Yeah. Well that's good, like film analysis or film making? Film studies, but they make you make a couple films in there. Oh yeah? Yeah. Well, that's good. Like film analysis or film making? Film studies, but they make you make a couple films in there. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I did a couple films.

16 millimeter stuff. Funny stuff? Yeah. Oh, good. They were sketches. I made sketches. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, before computers with actually cutting up the celluloid and matching the sound.

Yeah. Those were good skills to have, I guess. It was fun, but it was hard. I remember thinking, like, there's got to be somebody I could hire that could do this. I'd like to write these and make these, but I bet there's nerds that can do this way better than I can do it. Film editors. Turns out I was right. Yeah. Plenty of them. Yeah, man. So like, but you didn't like, once you got through the tunnel, your depression didn't continue. Not really. It was always a little bit there and I started going to therapy.

After college? After college. But then I dropped off, I thought I'd had enough of it. Well, what about your older sister? No, no depression? Yeah, a little bit, but not nearly. Anna's always been the hero, like she's been sort of- Workaholic.

Yeah, and just impressive and smart as a whip and lydia and i sort of followed anna i followed anna to connecticut i followed anna to chicago when she went to law school i started classes at second city i followed anna back to denver she bought a house in this neighborhood i bought a house in that neighborhood like what anna does i do i copy her you're close you were very close i just bought a house a block away from her she's got three kids and so that's sweet. In the wake of Lydia, we've become way closer too. It was a rivalry growing up, me and Anna.

But now there's no rivalry. And you're old now. Yeah, and she won. Yeah. So you were in Chicago after college? Yeah, so after college, I was fucking around. And I just was like, I'd like to do something in comedy. I knew Second City was a route to-

But you went to Chicago because your sister was there. She was there, and I was like- She said it was a cool city. Yeah, and she said I could crash on her floor and take classes at Second City. So I took some sketch comedy writing classes. Took improv and hated it and was bad at it. And started going to open mics and just watching them.

And was intrigued. You had the bug. I had had the bug and then i went back to denver got hired for by that newspaper because i was submitting shit to them and that's when i started doing stand-up i met this guy ben roy who's on my show best friend and i just met him at a bar yeah and he was like i'm a stand-up and i and just demystified. I didn't know normal people walking around could be standups. I thought they had to be guys in suits. Right, or they lived in different places. I thought they were anointed by entertainment. Like, you, you're a comic.

I didn't realize they were just normal assholes. Right. And so I went to an open mic and watched some truly appalling comedy and came back the next week and have- At the Comedy Works? No, this open mic was at a dive bar called Lion's Lair on Colfax.

Real, real shithole. So that was it. That's funny that you were, you know, a bright guy, but you just never put it together. I guess you don't know what age you're gonna get hit with music. When did you start? When I was like 21, 20.

I went to school in Connecticut. I wish I'd started sooner. I was like, I could have been in New York hitting mics all that time. But no, I didn't know how you did it, but how anyone comes upon that realization that it's a human activity. Right.

Because it's like, how would you know? Exactly. It's like when you first get interested in it, it's like, where do I start? Like now, like every idiot and their brother's a comic. I know. And there are mics all over the place. But when I was coming up, it's like, where do I start? Like now, like every idiot and their brother's a comic. I know. And there are mics all over the place. But when I was coming up, it was just,

they were at the club. You had to go to the club and try to figure it out. I mean, Comedy Works let us in very early on. So you'd go for a new talent night, but Wendy was always like, hey, if it's not sold out, you can sit in the back and watch. So we were there every weekend watching everybody. Oh, that's great.

Greg Giraldo oh yeah so sad Patrice oh another one yeah man we're just gonna name dead guys

Bill Burr was there I just remember those guys Chappelle liked like comedy works a lot so we'd just be in the back watching those dudes I feel like that doesn't

happen much anymore comics are like I gotta get a podcast I gotta get this I gotta get that it's like no go to the fucking club and watch guys i don't know i think it it does yeah you know especially in the smaller cities yeah i mean yeah i mean uh i was just in salt lake city they come

out wise guys yeah yeah yeah you know they the comics come out and then the guys live at the fucking store yeah watch everybody that's true uh i think yeah i mean when i really think back about my life and how how many hours i've spent looking at people in front of brick walls talking That's true. Sometimes I'll go into the original room or something and just sit there. And it's very calming to me. I know exactly what's going on here. It's not like I'm not expecting to laugh or anything. But it's sort of like this is the temple that I came up in. Yeah, this is my church. Is there anyone, I'm just curious, that you still go watch?

And you're like, I'd like to see what this guy's hours like. I've always liked to see Maria work when I can. I mean, I don't feel like, I don't find myself having a lot of time to do much of anything. Right. But I'll watch people at the store for a minute. Like if Burr's up there trying to figure something out,

that's always uncomfortable for a few minutes. No, I like that though. It's like we're always fans. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah, I used to like watching Al Madrigal a lot, but I haven't seen him in a long time. He just stopped coming to the store.

I always like watching people I've known forever. Todd Berry, I can watch. It's great. I feel lucky that the guys that I looked up to are now my friends. People are like, who are your favorite guys? And I'm like, my friends. Yeah.

And that's a nice place to be. Yeah, Patton is a guy that you looked up to and then became friends with. He started coming to the store a little bit. I'm a store guy, so I don't go anywhere else. The store is such a weird concept for someone who doesn't live in LA. It's just, I want to be up at the store.

I saw you there. Yeah, I've performed there. But didn't you say hi to me over there in the back? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've performed, but I don't have the time and I don't live here enough to put in the five years of hanging out to be a guy at the store. So you like do a belly room show or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right, right. That belly room is its own thing. It is its own thing. Downstairs, those are the ones. Listen, I did a half hour for 12 in the belly room that people still talk about. Hey, man, like, you know, when I really think about it, sometimes those half hours for 12 are the best. It was good. It was a lot of fun.

Because it enables you to get to a conversational mode, to realize that these jokes are hiding me from these people. No, you're so right about that. There's nothing to hide behind at all. Right. Your bullshit act goes away real fast. And that's kind of like, that's an exciting place to be. and terror because it's terrifying yeah that's true but then like you have to like you got to figure it out like how how do i be funny in this moment you're not on the paper

those are maron stool moments yeah it's gonna take a while i'm gonna lean into this yeah exactly yeah oh he's sitting down. That must mean it's going bad. That's when I used to sit down was when it was going bad. Really? Yeah, to counter. I didn't want them to think it was going badly in my mind. That's hilarious.

It's like a natural defense mechanism. Yeah, just like a possum. Just fall asleep. He's got one head on his hand. Yeah, exactly. Uh-oh, two. Yeah, yeah. This is bad.

This is trouble. But then it became like just the style. Then I just stayed there. Yeah, exactly. Uh-oh, two. Yeah, yeah. This is bad. This is trouble. But then it became like just the style. Then I just stayed there. It's great. It's kind of iconic, man. Yeah. I don't see many other people doing it. I know.

People make fun of it. But what are you going to run around? No. Fuck no. I've done the running around thing. It's like it's a trick. I barely move on that stage. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I... So, okay. So, like in Chicago, though, like when you were in chicago you must have like gotten the bug to perform i did yeah i mean i was like in second city and i was going to improv olympics and i was watching those two dudes that do the sonic commercials they're so funny they're like improv geniuses yeah i was watching those some old chicago there's some chicago guys that are really good that never leave chicago i know i know they show up in movies here and there

but they're still because their friends are doing stuff and pull them in. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know. Chicago's a treasure trove. So I was watching everything I could. And then you go to the open mics in Denver, and when you start doing sets, you know, like when you were watching all those guys, I mean, what did you really take in?

Who was the most, like what were you aspiring to? I remember seeing Dana Gould. Oh, yeah. And I knew he was a Simpsons writer, too, so that scratched that itch for me. But I was like, my God. I remember watching him crushing. Watching the history of comedy. His skill set is joke writing, mimicry.

Him doing a chimpanzee is the funniest damn thing. Yeah, he does all the things. Yeah, he really does. Yeah. And then when he has the meeting out of his hand, he's like, and now I will deliberately ruin all this goodwill and build it back up. So I remember watching him and thinking, this guy's a genius. Yeah, this is what I want to do.

Yeah. Like, I want them to like me. I want to ruin it. Yeah. And then I want to see if I can get it back. Exactly. That should keep me a lesser known comic for most of my life. And it's worked.

Hopefully I'll get a writing job nailed it swish yeah i well dana like well i think that one thing about dana that obviously you would relate to is that uh you know this sort of darkness that he was navigating was very real yeah and uh and and it was so like he was like, he's actually the one guy that, when I asked earlier, who were those guys? They weren't the guys that were killing themselves. Dana Gould is the perfect manifestation of depression, you know, on a comedy stage.

Like, him and Maria. Yeah. Like, are really what that looks like when you're fighting that fight. I think you're exactly right about that. Yeah. And you know who also, I think, does this, one of my buddies, and I don't want to call him depressed're exactly right about that. Yeah. And you know who also I think does this, one of my buddies,

and I don't want to call him depressed, but Kyle Kinane. Yeah. He's definitely fighting real stuff-ups there on stage. The little hobo. Every time, man. I think there's an honesty to Kyle's stuff that I admire. I do too, and he's a very lyrical writer.

Yeah, he's a poet. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I can feel that. He's a little boozier than the other two. For sure, for sure. But Dana, like, before Medication was really something to see. Like, sort of the mania of it. But, like, some of the writing for both him and Maria,

like, it's like they're taking that, you know, the tool of comedy and really going in. It's so interesting to encounter those comedians when you're doing comedy, because I was at the club all the time. Yeah. And then I remember I got a, it was like that onion moment.

I got in the mail at work in the newspaper, this double disc invite them up compilation. Oh yeah. And it was like, that was Eugene Merman, Bobby Tisdale's thing. Oh that thing, it was in New York, what was it? Rafifi. Yes, okay. Rafifi. Thank God, okay. And then that was in New York. What was it? Rafifi. Yes. Rafifi.

Thank God. Okay. And then that was the first I'd heard of alt comedy. I know like you guys were doing stuff prior to that, but for me, that was kind of like, oh, this is a, it's like I'd only listened to the Dave Matthews band and somebody's like, here's a Wilco CD. And I was like, ah, okay. All right.

That's interesting. That's when it happened. How old are you? I'm 38. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Right.

So, so that was it. You're like, oh, there is another world. This was your Spain moment with comedy. Exactly. It was the Rafifi double set. It really was. I remember the music editor, he's like, here, you'd probably like this. And I put it on.

And it was like that scene in a movie where the kid puts on his 70s headphones. No kidding. Has his mind blown. So then I just set out to emulate that in Denver. Who was on that thing? I mean, Birbiglia and Dimitri Martin and. Oh, so it was everybody that went through there.

Yeah. Weird sketches by Michael Showalter and David Wayne. Yeah. Just there's a freedom. I didn't even know that existed, that it's a double album. It's a double CD. No shit.

Yeah. And it just really spoke to me and it was, it was so goofy and so smart that I was like, oh, this is what I want to be doing in comedy. And there wasn't much of an alt scene in Denver, so we just started making one. Okay.

So did you tell Eugene that this did this to you? I don't think I ever did. I did his show a bunch. I, you know, sought out Eugene Merman. And I was, you know, I'm not dumb, so I knew immediately you need to go to New York and L.A. and be exposed. You can't just expect people to come to Denver.

Which show did you do? What did he have? It was called like Tearing the Veil of Maya. Oh, yeah, that's right. It was in Union Hall. In Brooklyn? In Brooklyn, yeah. That's right, I remember.

So I started doing that show as much as I, why do you look so sad about that? I'll tell you why. Because by the time I got out here, after we'd done Luna and everything else. And things have sort of got away from me. And it was the late, you know, 90s or whenever the hell. It was the early 2000s where just none of it mattered anymore. Like, things weren't working out really. Even though, you know, I'd been on Conan a million times.

Whatever. I was okay. But there was still sort of like, where do I fit in? And I remember coming out here and feeling like, man, I got to do all these alt shows. Right. And when I go to New York, I mean, I got to do them. And I'm like older than everybody, you know, but there was me and Barry and, you know, Kenler and stuff. Sure. There was those of us who were of the original alt.

But wouldn't you guys be the originators of that? I mean, that Luna. I learned about this after the fact, but that was sort of the origin of all this. Well, Luna was. And there was some guys out here. Dana did. Dana. There was the Uncabaret out here, which is sort of back.

And then there was another one that they used to do at a bookstore out here around the same time with kathy griffin dana gould um beth lapidus and there was there was those venues starting at largo with the original largo right uh but you know they were just alternative stages to mainstream comedy clubs but the weird thing i just remember the maya thing because there was a time where i like i'd be like oh my god these people this what is this precious shit? And I got to do this. And like, is this, you know, is this real comedy?

And everybody seems so, you know, clever and clean in a way, you know? And I'm just like, I was coming from a different mindset. Yeah, no, I hear you. And I had to fit myself into it. It's all very twee. Right, and it always was.

And I never saw myself like that. So I was always at odds with those audiences now i don't do any of them like the like the big graduation for me you know having cut when i come to la i gotta go to meltdown i gotta figure out this shit right right it's like i'm going on the store but i guess i gotta do this thing like i realized recently it's like no i don't ever go to those places i know well i'm very glad and i think most comics should have exactly what you do and what I did is like, I'm also at the club

every week and making sure there's punchlines in this shit. Sure. So there's the work ethic of being a club comic. And you're playing

for real audiences. Yeah, Bud Light chugging dudes. Yeah, they're around but I don't love performing for them anymore. I know, I know. But you got to.

I mean, isn't the goal just get to theaters so it's like your people coming out? That is the goal and it is nice but I remember the last time I was at the Comedy Works a couple times ago, You got to. I mean, isn't the goal just get to theaters so it's like your people coming out? That is the goal. Right. And it is nice.

But I remember the last time I was at the Comedy Works a couple times ago. I don't remember. Was that the week I was there? You were that bridal? Oh, God. Were the bachelorette party? I mean, I don't remember a specific one, but I've had 20 bachelorette parties at that club that just, yeah. That club is so fucking hot.

It's hard to fuck up that club. And there was like a dozen of these women, and they threw one of them out really yeah because like when i i have a like radar for that shit and before i went on i told the guy i'm like just fucking you know keep manage that yeah because like i got real fans here and i don't want to you know babysit them for fucking out yeah and they threw someone out and at the end of the show this woman comes up to me and she's like I'm the bride and they threw out my mother and I just oh that's great she was so excited about the story I think

can I tell you my Bats are Red story real quick yeah yeah sure it was that comedy take your time it was it was

they weren't policing them man and I was just shutting them down cleverly time and time again getting back into my act but like having to go back and say something

to shut them up ten times and I was like why are they not kicking them out i don't know if they were just asleep on the job so i go into this bit that's like a five minute bit it's precise yeah and and you know the punch line is at the very end and i've probably minute four i see one of the women start get up and i see her she starts walking to the front of the stage and I'm trying to like speed get it out because I've been working to land this plane and like I'm about to get out the punch line and she just hands me a note like stepping on it perfectly she just hands me a note right at the front of the stage so I open the note and it says fuck you and so i just i snapped i was like you're gone get out all you

are gone 86 you did it it was the worst oh my god fuck you had you been fucking with them all night yeah i mean you had to fuck you no they just didn't like me because i kept telling them not to talk all right yeah anyway comedy Yeah, it's great, man. That's a good one. There's a one, like I- I wish I'd kept that note. I should have framed that. Yeah, I used to have one.

I had a note somewhere that was like some, it was one of those, you know, comment cards. Oh, yeah. Yeah, basically just said the other two acts were great, but get rid of Mark Maron. He's not funny at all. Oh, yeah. I love that.

That's the thing about having your foot in the real clubs and having the other foot in the other place. I came up in real clubs. You've worked real clubs. There's that whole world

that's sort of the fight, the real fight. It is, and I think you lose something as a comic if you don't get in there and fight the fight. Well, I'll go do clubs,

but I still think even at Wise Guys a lot of those people were there to see me but I felt like there were some that weren't. I just did that club. It was great.

No, it's great. I was impressed. They're happier there, man. Yeah, they really were and like Salt Lake City hipsters just need it more so you get those people out there and they're hipper

than Brooklyn people. You're just like, wow, I had no idea this was. Yeah, they're really holding a line. They really are. It's a fight. It is I had no idea this was. Yeah, they're really holding a line. They really are. It's a fight. It is.

It's a total fight. So you're doing comedy and you're writing for the paper and you're working primarily in the alt scene and also in the comedy works when you can. So you're gunning for those opening spots.

Totally. Like you're doing, you're working out your shit in the alt scene and then trying to get to be a feature actor. A hundred percent, yeah. Right and and the alt scene was starting to kick ass yeah yeah yeah who's there i mean the guys who i have the show with ben made it out ben roy andrew overdall ben kronberg so so when do you start to like you know like what's your sister doing at this point

like you know where are you at in your career in your career when you start to notice that she's just not being funny, it's taking this other turn? Well, so there was this interesting period where she lived down in Colorado Springs where she went to college. And I kind of, after she graduated, she kept living there and Colorado Springs sucks. And we were all like, what are you doing?

Come back up to Denver. Yeah. And I was doing comedy and she knew that, but I don't think she realized that we were doing kind of good comedy and it was fun and cool so she started coming to shows and I just remember her being like oh this is awesome like if I come to Denver if I move home can I like help you guys and we're like yeah so like Lydia you know our shows were ambitious because we wanted to impress everybody so you were hosting shows and putting them together yeah and we would show

little sketches that we filmed and you're really doing it's a real inner uh bring them up evening of entertainment yeah totally totally copying that and so she started working the door and helping me make flyers and running tech and like she was integral in this show that became the grolics which is me and ben and andrew and that went on to become those who can't so lydia is there and there, and I would have these conversations with her. She and I grew up together getting our sense of humor off of each other. I found my sense of humor with her.

And so when she came back to Denver, I'd go out to breakfast with her the day after a show, and we'd break it down. We'd geek out about it together and obsess. And this guy ran the light. This guy wasn't funny. We shouldn't have him again. And then she would help me go over my stuff.

It's the type of intimate conversation you should only have with a comic. But it was my sister who I found funnier than anybody. So she's like tagging stuff and she's telling me to do this and that. She's a comedy person. She's a comedy nerd. But she's working.

Yeah, and so I had her there for a while doing that and it was really I mean the happiest I've ever been it was really amazing it was pure the comedy we were doing was really pure

and exciting and she was there you know involved in all of it so that that was you know

but then she started to break down a little bit and then what do you mean how's that well the first time she broke down I was in Mexico with a buddy and I called my mom and What do you mean, how's that? Well, the first time she broke down,

I was in Mexico with a buddy and I called my mom and I was just like, hey, how's it going? And she's like, well, Lydia had like a breakdown. And I was like, well, what does that mean? And she had been working at my dad's office just as a paralegal. She wasn't really- Your sister?

Yeah, she wasn't finding a career track. So she had a little lost? Yes, big time. And bouncing from working at an animal shelter to a restaurant to, but we're this pretent Yes, big time. And, you know, bouncing from working at an animal shelter to a restaurant to, but, you know, we're this pretentious, educated family. So we're like, Lydia, you like animals. Why don't you go to vet school?

You know what I mean? It was that type of thing. An aimless 20 something that you're kind of like pushing in these directions. So anyway, she was paralegaling for my dad and my sister was there and she just came in and said, confessed to my dad she hadn't slept for days, she she can't her mind won't relax and she talked about how she couldn't read she was an avid reader and she's like i'll read a paragraph and i'll just scan it back and forth

back and forth back and forth like i'm unable to like hop further along the page and we're all like well that's that's weird but all, let's get you some help. And I started doing therapy and stuff, but that was just the start of 20 calamitous events that led to her death. And it'd be 20 minutes before the show, and I'm like, Lydia, where's the laptop with the movie? There's a line around the block, what the fuck?

And she's not answering her phone or saying she's feeling socially anxious she can't go out tonight and so these flaky things started happening and you know i wish i'd had more empathy for it but at the time i was just kind of like mad at my sister's like get your shit together you're blowing the show yeah and you know in hindsight it's pretty clear what was going on. But was she bipolar? Later, I found out, yeah. Because that's what it sounded like. You were kind of dealing with a little of that in college,

this whole not sleeping thing, but not being suicidal, just being like, meh. Yeah, I mean, she was bipolar. She was diagnosed with anxiety. She had a lot of issues. So she's forgetting things. She's flaking out. Yeah. And she's not sleeping. And she's not sleeping. And she's forgetting things. She's flaking out. Yeah.

And she's not sleeping. And she's not sleeping. And she's getting darker, you know, in a way that wasn't as the same way we'd been doing it our whole lives. Were there ups and downs? Yeah, yeah. And meanwhile, she's really fucking funny and, like, kind of the same. Yeah. So there are these highs and these lows.

And I mean, it sounds hyperbbolic but we were best friends. She was probably at that show I was at. I'm sure she was at that show. Wait. When I did the podcast. No, she had died before that. Must not have been too long before. It was right after that.

It was right after that. Oh man. That's the crazy thing man. Like and I talk about it in the book, Ben Roy got to be a new face. And then the next year I got to be a new face. At Montreal Comedy Festival, yeah. And this, you know, for a Denver comic,

this shit wasn't happening. I got new faces, in the height, you know, Lydia ODs those two times, it's this terrible summer, all this fucked up shit's happening, the Batman shooting, these wildfires, it's this dark summer lydia's od'ing and then i get new faces and it's like this light and i'm like oh my god and i go there and it's incredible and i come back and two days later lydia kills herself so it was just like and that's been my life for the past six years. So it was this incredible high. Everything I've been working for, I kind of get it.

I go there. I do well. Well, you talk about doing Conan for the first time after. Yeah. But then your sister's taken out. And you're like, I don't give a shit about any of this. But I think the horrible thing that must be the challenge to wrestle with is that they do get draining. They do get exhausting.

It is annoying. You know, even when you know, you know, there's still part of you that's sort of like, just get your medication. Right. Exactly.

Just like fucking. It's so, it seems so uncharitable to say, but like no one talks about how a depressed person is fucking annoying. And they only talk about themselves. There's not a lot of, Hey, how are you doing?

Yeah. Coming out of a depressed person. So it just drains you, man. You can't do it forever. And you can feel it. It's like there's something unspoken, especially if it's family. You just walk into a room and you're like, oh God.

There's a cloud in there. And we would pass Lydia off to one another, especially after the ODs. It's like I've done eight hours, I've done a shift, it's your turn, you know? Really? It was that bad. It's amazing that you're also supportive though. We're close, man.

And even closer since all this. It's weird though, with this book coming out, you know, my parents are very nice. The one thing we've all tried to do is like, allow each other to mourn however the fuck you need to mourn and not judge the way they're mourning. Not get mad at mom because she's been down too long or not get mad at Anna because she's not talking about it.

We just let each other do what we need to do and unfortunately I'm in this field where I need to share my thoughts and I needed to do this on some level. But I regret that people are to come up to my mom in the supermarket and say, I read Adam's book. It's so sad. And you know, it's the most intimate hurt that my family experienced and I'm trying it out there for public consumption. On the other side of that, this is going to be a very helpful book to a lot of people that

experience grief and processing grief. I mean, it's, you're not throwing anyone under the bus. No, no, of course. You're, what you're saying is very intimate and candid sadness. I mean, you're not throwing anyone under the bus here. No, no, of course. What you're saying is very intimate and candid sadness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's also a necessary thing for people to know that people get through it, that families get through it. For sure, for sure. What did they think of it when they read it?

I gave it to them before I turned it into the publisher, and I was like, anything you want changed, you let me know. They all like, you know, my mom gave me the nicest compliment ever. She said, I read it in one sitting and it felt like I was hanging out with Lydia. And I was like, well, that's good. So I gave my mom an afternoon with her daughter, you know. Yeah, right. And how did it turn out that you found her?

Lydia? Yeah. Well, you know, I lived right by her. And it was terrible, man. I came back from Montreal. Andrew, the other member of the Grawlix, my show, Those Who Can't, he calls me and he's like, hey, man, I saw your sister at the bar last night.

She was acting crazy, got in a fight with the bar last night. She was like acting crazy, got in a fight with her boyfriend, guys. And it was just like, like it was insane. It was an insane scene. And I was like, all right, man,

thanks for letting me know. And I called her up and she was, started sobbing. And she was so, she was just really bothered that people would be talking about her. Like your sister was crazy. Yeah. And so she just started wailing and crying. And so I, I hadn't slept. really bothered that people would be talking about her like your sister was crazy yeah and so

she just started wailing and crying and so i i hadn't slept i'd been up in montreal all night and but i was like all right let's go as i drove over to her house i picked her up i took her she was only eating belgian waffles for the last like two weeks of her life i took her to this belgian waffle spot and just tried to dust her off a little bit you know and yeah and i went i did the best i could i went home i went to sleep and talked to her that night and then the next morning we get a text just says love you all and that was it and uh and so anna was like well that was disturbing you should go check on her so i was like yeah so so i did and yeah it was you know quite the fucking scene man um but it's weird i've it's a it's a disturbing the way you describe it is is pretty uh amazing in

the book oh thanks like you know everything that was going on in you when you found her her body you know the you know coming you know that idea that you you hear that you leave your body but you didn't right then eventually you sort of did yeah exactly i thought it was really uh beautifully written that part it's a rough thing and then thanks man and then you know yeah how you described your your mom's reaction when she came and yeah all of that yeah it was just fucking awful but in a weird way i get in you know, that memory was real bad for me, obviously. And it was like, I started having flashbacks and nightmares and stuff,

and I had to do this kind of aggressive PTSD therapy to process it. EMDR. And it worked? Yeah, it worked like gangbusters. No kidding, that's great. I'm a big believer in that shit. Yeah, I've done a little bit of it.

Have you really? Yeah. Did it work for you? I think so, like it wasn't as tangible, my whatever my post-traumatic stresses for my childhood was not related to one incident. A specific thing you're trying, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

I think it did help. Yeah, I really, I went to a couple therapists before I found that EMDR and they were all so pitying and they were all just like oh my god and you know just sitting it and yeah and just being empath like over empathizing like trying to show me how much they felt my pain and I just resented it and then I went to the EMDR woman and she was like you know I deal with people who've been sexually abused I deal with like literally like African children of war I deal with literally African children of war. Yours is a very sad thing, but let's just get to solving it.

How many sessions? I can't remember. Eight, nine, ten. At some point, I just kind of was done with it. And I just, you know, you go in there and you put these electronic pulsers in your hand and they tick-tock back and forth, simulating REM, apparently, which is when our brain best process memories, and then you just go through it.

And so, and it was amazing because the memory would get more vivid and I would remember more things. And she would make me go through it again and again and again. How long after the event did you do it? Probably like six months afterwards. There was a bad six months before that. Well, you just couldn't get it out of your head.

Yeah, and we sold our TV show. We filmed a pilot. I'm on the road, and I'm just hating everything. Like nothing's fun. I broke up with my girlfriend, who's now my wife, because I even remember telling her, I was like, I can't be happy, I can't be hopeful. And this is all because of Lydia?

Yeah, I just wanted to like, I just, I wanted to throw in the towel. You wanted to die? I think so. But did you feel like you failed her or did you just? Lydia? Yeah. Yeah, you name it, I felt it.

Like, anger at her, especially for like what she did to my parents. And, but then failure, the feeling that we failed her. And gradually, you know, acceptance of it. And through a lot of work, the ability to not just remember the fucked up last two years, but to remember the great 26 before that. Right.

And that was, it sounds so simple, that was a coup for me to get to that point. Yeah. Because the darkness has a way of outweighing everything that happened before. So this process of writing the book and celebrating her life up to that point, and then documenting your movement through your feelings

was sort of the final phase of your grieving. I think so. I mean, the book's utterly selfish. It was like, I gotta deal with this shit. I didn't write this as a self-help and it's not clean. I don't land. And then comedy saved my life.

It's just messy, but it was me getting it out. I was never, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it, but I never talked about it on stage. I just couldn't, I didn't want to. It felt.

It's interesting. It felt beneath her in some way. Oh, yeah. And I don't disrespect the form, but at the time, I wasn't quite headlining. What am I going to do? Am I going to do my 10 minutes in the middle of the show and unload my suicide bit like i just didn't i had a block i had a total block and i couldn't talk about it on stage well it's also you know it's it's one thing to to sort of

explore your own sadness around life in a suicidal way but yeah i it would you know unless you're really willing to sort of flesh something out you know the setup being my you know my sister shot herself in the head you know right where do you go man no place good i remember i tried to do one joke and it bombed so hard but i was i was, it's hard to tell jokes about suicide. Yeah. It's hard to write jokes about suicide. I was like, writing jokes about suicide is like doing a modern dance about the Holocaust.

We all know modern dance never existed. It's just like fell flat on its face. I was like, you know. But that's interesting about, you know, your style of comedy. I mean, you're a joke guy. Yeah. You know, so, you know, like, but, you know, your style of comedy. I mean, you're a joke guy. Yeah.

You know, so, you know, like, but, you know, smart joke guy. But, like, there's a way to, like, in my mind, the funny place to go with the modern dancing is that, like, you know, the challenge of art to overcome anything. Right. I'm sure there has been modern dances. About the Holocaust. That were reactions right you know that I'm sure there has been modern dances about That were reactions to the Holocaust. I'm sure there have but but what did that do right? That's Didn't solve anything exactly

You know great But then you get along if you then if you go down that route too long Then you start thinking about your book and everything else. Like, none of it means anything. Right. Then you're right back to fucking darkness. Right, exactly. The Nietzsche. Yeah. You know, I don't know why.

Lately, I've been talking about it a little bit on stage. But it's clumsy, and it's like almost a PSA I do at the end of the show to sort of, like, talk about mental illness, and if you're needing help like reach out and it's cool but i have a few jokes in there but it's not this well-crafted anything but it is an acknowledgement but i think what's interesting in the book is like using bits and pieces of her texts and you know like getting you know how you set up this personality is that you know i think the way to really deal with it on stage is in the same way you dealt with it in the book

is celebrate you know her you know and it in the book, is celebrate her, and then finding the things she would appreciate you talking about if she were watching you now. You're totally right about that. That would be 100% the way to go. It's a bummer in a lot of ways, but she would be so blown away by all the shit that's happening because she was a comedy nerd.

Sure. I got a TV show. What? Are you kidding me like she would have been in that writer's room in love and life yeah so you know it's she yeah to think about the things that she was watching me do yeah is a good way to think about it that makes me happy to think about oh good yeah and and also like i i imagine that on some well, maybe because it was so weird that it just happened, like her brain shifted in just this two-year window, but on some level,

were you half expecting it? No. And isn't that weird? Because I look back at it and I'm like, how the fuck did we not see this? Two overdoses. She's complaining all the time. She's never saying she wants to kill herself,

but she's saying she wants to sleep through the day, day every day right she's just trying to be asleep right you know which is that's dead yeah and but i never and that was really what really was the hard thing it was a betrayal and i never thought she would do that and i thought if she was really there that we were close enough that she would tell me. Right. And so that like hurt because I could have been like, I can help you. Yeah. Or try anyway.

So that was, that took a lot. I don't, I'm no longer mad about that. But at the time I was like, you lied to me. You lied right to my face. Sure.

Repeatedly. I asked you, are you gonna kill yourself? No, no, no. I'm just sad. Okay. All right. You just straight lied to me.

And so that's a rough one for somebody who's like, you're that close with, you know. But now, so the family's gotten tighter and everyone's sort of in touch and processed most of it. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's hard. It's never, I feel real bad for my mom and dad.

Yeah. And I feel bad for all of us but we're all we're all at a better spot like I was telling you July sucks and this something about this July

was a little easier I don't know if it's six years I don't know what it was but it's almost like I had to choose to go get sad on those days and I did but I

but it didn't just hit me like a wave that morning like fuck today was the day. Well, it's nice when sadness is a choice. Yeah, right? And not a way of life. Exactly. It's like the angst I was talking about as a young man

that I could choose to go find that angst. Sure. Yeah. Sometimes it's good to check in with your feelings. Now, do you have kids now? No, my wife's pregnant. Oh, congratulations. Thanks, man.

We're due in November. Oh, great. Well, you know, great job on the book, and I'm glad you seem well, kids now or no my wife's pregnant oh graduations thanks man we're doing november oh great well you know great job on the book and and i'm glad you're you seem well and i hope the tv show comes back and uh you seem you seem pretty good thanks man i appreciate that and uh thanks for having me on like this is uh it's been great good talking to you you too that's that. That was me and Adam Caden Holland. Heavy but good. Tragedy plus time.

The memoir is available wherever you get books, and you can get his comedy album, Adam Caden Holland Performs His Signature Bits, on Comedy Central Records. You can also go to WTFpod.com to get tour dates, to buy one of the new t-shirts, and also to sign up for the Wf premium access that'll get you all of our archived episodes um which could come in handy when you're alone or feeling sad or just uh

looking to distract yourself so all right okay heavy but good. Heavy but human. I'm going to play a little bit of guitar. I've been listening to a lot of Lightning Hopkins lately. Boomer lives! It's a little sloppy because I'm trying to do the two-finger thing. Yeah, I'm working on something. So, it was real. Why can't I stop that buzz? There you go.

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