WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 953 - Joan Jett

Episode Date: September 23, 2018

Joan Jett wanted to be a rocker ever since she got a hold of a guitar, even though she was told girls don’t play rock and roll. That didn't stop her from forming The Runaways despite the sexist roadblocks the band faced. It also didn't stop her from putting out her own albums when she couldn't get a record label to do it. Joan takes Marc through her past, most of which was shared with her longtime producer and collaborator Kenny Laguna, who also joins Marc and Joan in the garage to add some detail and perspective. This episode is sponsored by Spotify and Molekule. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. How's it going out there? Are you holding up? Everything okay? Hope you're doing all right. I worry. I worry about you. I worry about us. I worry about me. I'm a worrier. It's just the way I'm wired. I wish I wasn't, but sometimes it's warranted, isn't it? I just got back from Denver. I did four shows at the Comedy Works. I'm recording this on Sunday afternoon. I fly out early in the morning so I could come do this. It never stops.

I do not have much free time. The Comedy Works is a great venue. It's one of the great comedy clubs. It seats about, I don't know, maybe 250 or something, something and it's in a basement it's got low ceilings it's it's very snug it's slightly tiered the audience is right on top of you some of them are literally on stage they're sitting on stage and i'm working on new shit and as you know i've been i've been out there hammering it out at the anvil of the club. I'm in it. I'm 100% in it.

It is my job. It was always my job. That's the amazing thing about doing comedy for as long as I've been doing it, is that you work hard at something, and then you realize, this is my job. This is what I do, and I'm good at it. And I keep pushing it. I keep taking risks at my job. This is what I do and I'm good at it. And I keep pushing it. I keep taking risks at my job. I've built a craft over a long period of time. I'm very proud of it. I just had this conversation. I'm sorry. Did I mention who's on the show today? Joan Jett is on the show today. Joan Jett with a special appearance by her manager, Danny Laguna,

who they are inseparable, apparently, and he wanted to be around, so I put him on the mic. He's a very interesting cat in his own right, and they seem to have a symbiotic thing going. Been together for years, so it's Joan Jett with, let's do it that way, Joan Jett with Danny Laguna today on the show. Joan Jett, I believe, just turned 60 the other day. I recorded this before she turned 60.

So if you're on top of that and you realize, why didn't I wish her a happy birthday? It was because I didn't know then. But she just turned 60. I'm turning 55 on Thursday. turned 60. I'm turning 55 on Thursday. And it's not so much that I'm feeling my age, but I do start to think about what I do and who I am in the world and what we all do. It's just a weird thing when you get, I guess I'm middle-aged, but getting back to the idea of doing the job, especially as a creative person, as somebody who has sort of hammered out their own way through a creative endeavor, through an expression endeavor, through like something that is not a normal way of life. I flew back on the plane from Denver with Whitney Cummings, who was working at the other club.

Denver with Whitney Cummings, who was working at the other club. And, uh, you know, we just got into this conversation and it's, and I just started to realize like, there's a lot of people out there that call themselves comics because they've done 10 minutes here, a couple of sets there. They worked on a, an open mic somewhere, or they, they did a room. And the, the And the thing about being a comic, about truly being a comic, not unlike any job, is that you got to do the job. And the job, to a certain degree, you know, is like getting laughs. Fine. You know that you should do that when you're a comic. But the bigger job is, can you show up and do an hour, hour and a half and do do it consistently, and stay up there, and over the years generate new material? Can you apply your craft? Can you evolve your craft? Can you show up anywhere and do an hour and get paid for it and do it consistently? I mean, that is the job,

and I've been doing the job for most of my life at this point, being a paid comic and showing up, whether it's strangers, whether they're familiar, whether it's an event that seems awkward for comedy or a venue that seems awkward for comedy. I've been doing it for a long time. And over time, you know, it's not it's not something to be taken for granted. And I think this is something that everyone goes through who's been working at what they do for a long time to sort of take a minute and acknowledge that you know what you're doing and that you're good at it and that you're engaged with it and that you like it and that you're proud of it. And I don't know that I do that enough. And I don't know why I'm doing it publicly because I have my own insecurities. I have my own, you know, weird approach to, you know, uh, uh, humility, I guess. Uh, I, I just, uh, I don't always give myself any credit. I, I, I work hard and I don't know. I don't know why I'm telling you that. I, I talk to you twice a week. I talk to people in this garage, you know, as often as possible. And then I do the acting thing, you know, which I'm fine to admit that I'm relatively new to.

But there was just something about this moment where, you know, it's just me and Whitney on a plane talking about our shows, talking about what's going on and realizing that we go out there and we do this job. And I think it becomes very apparent when you do four shows at a club. I'm working out new stuff. I'm hammering out new stuff because I want my hour to be tight. I don't have my hour plus really. I don't have a special on the books, but I'm going to be at the Beacon Theater in New York on November 10th. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour to get tickets for that. And it's just, it's one of those things, I guess I'm just telling you, I'm acknowledging that, you know, when you do something for most of your life and you, you see that you evolve with it, that you get better at it, that you have more control over it, you know, you can take different different risks you can challenge yourself within what you do and uh you have the freedom to do that it's a it's a it's a mind-blowing thing it's a great thing and i see it in my peers like i just i just finished reading my friend sam lipsight's new book

it's going to be out in january and he sent me a galley copy and you know and sam's had several novels out several collections of short stories. But man, I read this fucking book. And granted, we're very good friends. But it's a perfect evolution of his creativity and expression. It's gotten better. It's gotten deeper. It's gotten more wise.

His wordsmithing is phenomenal. It's fucking hilarious. And it ends. It just lands he lands this novel like a like it just like it was like landing a spaceship for the first time just just just nails it and he's been doing it for 20 years and you just to see somebody you know get better and and get amazing uh through what they, through commitment and through hard work is a beautiful thing.

The book is called Hark. And if you don't know Sam Lipsight's stuff, he's one of the funniest fucking writers alive, really. And he's a real deal, kind of like, you know, takes real chances on the page and is deeply funny. And I can't, I'm going to have him in here. I have not had my friend Sam Lipsight on for a full episode. He was on near the beginning of the show. And I think we might

have done one other one. I can't even remember. But for this book, we're going to do a full one, but you can pre-order Hark and I would do it even though you're going to wait a few months. But look, I don't sell you garbage people. Anyways, proud of my friend, proud of myself, proud of anybody who sticks with something long enough to become great at it, even if you don't get the attention that you think you deserve. Even if you're not a superstar, even if you're not recognized as much as you want. If you know in your heart you're doing it the best you can and you're taking chances and you're

evolving and doing new things and finding freedom within your expression or within your occupation or or you're finding movement or success and helping people whatever it is for fuck's sake don't take anything away from yourself just because you don't think enough people notice what you do and if you're getting paid for it and you're doing a good job with it, you're fucking living the life. You should fucking be proud of yourself. And if you're not doing it and you're holding yourself back from doing it, just do it really. What do you have to lose ultimately after a certain point? Do you know what I'm saying? Huh? Do you? Also speaking about lifers, about comedians, I talked to Rita Rudner in here last week. She's a great comic. She's been around

a long time, always generating new material. I haven't seen her in a while, but she's got this new special out. You'll hear my interview with her in a few weeks, but we have a schedule. But I wanted to mention that her new comedy special, Rita Rudner, A Tale of Two Dresses, is now available from Comedy Dynamics on Amazon, iTunes, Google Play, and most on-demand platforms. So check that out, and you'll hear me and Rita in a few weeks. Great comic. And we had a great conversation, but I just wanted to give you a heads up for that. I did want to try to read this letter because, you know, I don't know. My parents are getting older, but they're both still with us.

And throughout the years, you've heard me, you know, resolve things or have problems with or, you know, not quite be able to get over resentments with my folks, with my dad, some with my mom, whatever. But they're still around. And as I get older, I'm very grateful they're still around. It's nice to have them and be able to talk to them. I think I can appreciate them more than I have previous in the past. That's another thing that's evolving. If you let it, previous in the past. That's another thing that's evolving. If you let it, if you have the heart to do it. But I got this email and these kind of emails kind of get me. They move me. The subject line is a letter from a fan involving a cross-country trip with his son and your show. How am I not going to pop that one open?

I'm already half crying. Hi, Mark. So I just got back home to Washington, D.C. after a month-long cross-country trip with my 19-year-old son, Connor. I helped move him to Los Angeles so he can pursue his many dreams. He's our only, so this one was special on many levels. But one of the coolest things for me was turning him on to your WTF shows as we burned rubber across this great, if highly imperfect,

land of ours. We ate amazingly diverse, great food, observed how cool the vast majority of our fellow citizens are, and listened to your guests like we were sitting in your garage. You know how it is on long drives. You exhaust conversation quickly as mile after mile of the same looking shit blurs by. It becomes hypnotically boring, mentally deadening, no matter how great your Spotify playlist may be. But that's where your shows save the day. Our mutual enjoyment of your opening monologues and your thoroughly unique interview style had us sitting forward in our seats.

We'd gobble up shows and then talk about them for a couple hours. It was fan-fucking-tastic, my friend. It was like you were in the car with us, in the back seat, chatting with a guest. It bonded my son and me in a way that I can't express in words, and for that, I'll forever be grateful to you. Later, I heard him talk about you and your shows with his friends, and I thought to myself, well, there's at least one useful takeaway he got from his flawed old man, and I'm totally good with that and proud of it. So thank you, Mark. Thank you for helping a father and son talk about real things like comedy, integrity, honesty, art, books, music, politics, and love. Thank you for giving us hope in a seemingly hopeless time and culture. Our time with you meant something. It counted, and we'll never forget it.

Your fan and pal for life, John. Wow, John. I, you know, for most of my life, I was, you know, fairly kind of cornered and pigeonholed by myself and others as a somewhat selfish fuck uh you know and somewhat uh self-obsessed person or cynical or whatever but uh again and this goes along with what i was talking about earlier as time goes on and things get weirder and things get darker as i get older

and as as the country struggles on i i have to take some comfort in that. And, you know, knowing that one of the effects of this show, which I could never have assumed, would be something like that, that letter. And it happens all the time. And I'm happy that I've been there for people, even though I don't, you know, I'm just doing what I do. But I'm very grateful that it's had the effect it has. I'm sorry if I'm a little mushy, but maybe it's just my age. Maybe it just happens sometimes. And maybe I dumped all my funny over the weekend.

Joan Jett, an archetype, an original. She she's fucking jones yet there's a new documentary about her life and career coming out it's called bad reputation it comes out this friday september 28th and as i said before jones longtime producer and collaborator kenny laguna was with her for this interview so you're going to hear from him too. And there was a lot going on in here that day. A lot of stuff. The two of them, there was a, there's a little whirlwind and I hope you can feel that as you listen to me talk to Joan Jett featuring Kenny Laguna. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats.

But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again.

Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. you know i i got a sense of you guys from the movie like it feels like uh an ongoing uh comedy routine it's terrific yeah yeah but this is what happens right? Everybody says It's like an old married couple Yeah

But you're not married That's true No we're not married It's like an old married couple His wife is Your daughter run the company Right Blackheart Records still?

Yes Yeah And you started that company And your wife still around? Yes And she started the company with us Alright And she

She and I met in high school. Yeah. Wow. Long time. Yeah, especially for this business. Yeah. You just had your anniversary, too. How long?

48. 48 years? Who makes it 48 years? It was a teenage wedding. Yeah. How much noise is Kenny going to make with bags and stuff? I don't know. Are we recording now?

Yeah. Oh, sorry. i was looking i know i was waiting for it i was waiting for it to stop too what do you got what do you need my pre-roll why don't you get up and walk away what's the pre-roll is that is that drug talk it's we're not druggies by the way oh the only thing we do is cannabis yeah that's what i mean yeah but yeah is that what a pre-roll is? Yeah, pre-roll. All right.

Never mind. Like already rolled? Yeah. Yeah. So wait, how long have you lived in New York? Since 79? Yes, I moved there in 1979. Now when you come back here, does it trigger memories and shit?

Definitely. Yeah? Yeah, it's bittersweet. Yeah? I mean, I love L.A. and I hate L.A. Yeah, right. On two levels. It's not that I love L.A., and I hate L.A. Yeah, right, yeah. On two levels. It's not that I hate it.

It's just that, you know, when the runaways broke up, it was devastating to me. And it really, I could feel, or at least it felt to me, like the people were laughing and saying, we told you. Yeah. You couldn't do this. Right. It wouldn't work. But when you came out here, you didn't, like, wouldn't work but when you came out here you didn't like i

for some reason when i watched the documentary i was like did she run away from home but you were you were around here right you yeah you come from pennsylvania yeah were you lucky to get out of there i think no i like pennsylvania you do so i yeah was it rural was it the rural part of near philly where was it it was all suburbs you know i born in Philly, but got out of there when I was six months old. My parents moved to Pittsburgh. Then I had a brother and sister were born there. Lived in Erie, Pennsylvania until I was about eight. Then I moved to Rockville, Maryland.

Funny enough, Rockville. And that's where I sort of fell in love with rock and roll so would you say you have a like a Pennsylvania accent it's like a Philly like wait because you do have a twang there's something to it it's it's east coast it's more like a figure it would be Philly right Maryland yeah Maryland kind of like Philly and the south at the same time and Jersey too Jersey Philly and New York they're definitely time. And Jersey, too. Jersey, Philly, and New York, they're definitely defined accents. Yes.

It's a tough accent. Yes. You lucked out. It's a good accent to have. So when you were, okay, so you're in Pittsburgh, and you have two older, you're the oldest, or what? I'm the oldest, yeah. Yeah.

Are they either your sibs in music business? No. No. They're both just regular jobs. Yeah? So, okay, when you say, where did you start getting hip to, like, the music? When did it start turning you, like, you know, towards it? I lived in Rockville, Maryland, a little suburb of Washington, D.C. And it was just sort of, I guess, you know, as you age, as you come out of being a little kid.

Yeah. And just listening to going from like Donny Osmond to The Osmonds yeah something like

or that was on the radio what's that when we were kids the Osmond Brothers the Osmond Brothers yeah yeah right yeah well you know

for a teenage girl Archer's family that little younger that no but I didn't really yeah I mean I liked the songs

they were okay yeah yeah but then something shifted around 11 something like that my ear yeah

hearing things like All Right Now by Free there was something in the rhythm guitar yeah sound

yeah that I wanted to make those sounds. Yeah. That guy was a good guitar player. He died. Was it Kossoff? Was that his name?

The guitar player from Free? Oh, Paul Kossoff, I think. Paul Kossoff. Yeah. I could be wrong. No, that's right. Okay. He had a good sound, that guy.

But it was just a little bit out of tune. Yeah, yeah. A few songs like that, T-Rex, Banga Gong. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just wanted to make those sounds. And you were like that, T-Rex, Banga Gong. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just wanted to make those sounds. And you were like 11, 12? Probably when it started. Yeah, yeah.

And by 13, I worked up the courage to ask my parents for an electric guitar for Christmas. They gave me an electric guitar. Like a good one? A Sears Silvertone. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's right. It kind of came with an amp and stuff. It came with the amp. You plug it right in. Those are worth a lot of money now, the Silvertone. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's right. It kind of came with an amp and stuff.

It came with the amp, you plug it right in. Those are worth a lot of money now, the Silvertones. I hear. I have no idea where it is. Yeah. I'm sure. I just don't know. How long did it take before you learned how to play rock?

Did you have to start with folk stuff and get bored? Yeah, actually, I went and I took a guitar lesson. And I... Being... You know, when you're young, you're exuberant. And you think you can do everything right now. Yeah. So, of course, I go in there and I say,

teach me how to play rock and roll. Yeah. And without the basics. So he's... First of all, he says, girls don't play rock and roll. So that kind of... He said that... It kind of hit me strangely because I'm like,

I'm in school with girls playing Beethoven and Bach on their violins. So what are you saying? Yeah, right. So I went through the lesson. He was trying to teach me on top of Old Smokey. But, you know, obviously you have to learn the basics first. It's always those weird, dumb songs. Well, if you just said, look, learn the basics first and it's always those weird dumb songs

well if you just said look you can play rock and roll you just have to learn the basics first then I would have been like oh okay teaching the basics

but saying no you can't do that I just went to that one lesson and quit and bought a learn how to play chords

yourself you need those three chords yeah and I listened to those singles and I went I'm three chords. Yeah, and I listened to those singles and I went on bought like all right now. Yeah. And I just played along with it.

Did you have the chord charts, like the book of chords, where to put your fingers and that kind of stuff? No, I can't really, just the, yeah, basically just the basic chords, but I don't read music, so. Right, yeah, you know, the ones, just, no, not the music, but just the chord structure.

Yes, just the how to play an E, how to play a... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then bar chords. Yeah, so that's really how I learned to play. Yeah. And I didn't push myself at that age because I didn't, beyond just kind of playing, I didn't see anything coming of it. Yeah. Then my family moved to California.

Which part? Los Angeles. Yeah, yeah. thing coming of it yeah then my family moved to california which part los angeles yeah yeah uh my i had an aunt out here and my mother wanted to get out and be by her sister so my father worked at transfer he worked for insurance company but once i moved to california then i'm thinking you know i could actually form a band yeah i can't be the only girl in L.A. that wants to play rock and roll. So if I'm doing this, there's got to be other girls out there. But first, so I knew it was possible. It's weird that there were really no models for it. Like, you know, when I watched the doc, you know, and it came up,

and I look at the years, there really was no, you know, hard rock girl groups at all. Not really, no. Yeah, I mean, there rock girl groups at all not really no yeah i mean there was there were girl groups right but they were singing groups or pop groups but there was no like rock groups i never really thought of it until i i saw the documentary that you guys were really one of the first ones the runaways right yeah so how okay so how did you go about pulling this band together well i used to go to a club yeah that I actually read about in all my rock magazines, in Cream and Circus. I read about this club when I still lived back east.

Yeah. Called Rodney Bingenheimer's English Disco. Yeah, I see him at Cantor sometimes. Yeah, do you? In that booth by himself with the hair. Yeah, well, I'll tell you. He was a very important person in rock and roll. So tell me about that place,

because that was the first time I really knew about it from watching the documentary. Yeah, it was great. It was a disco for teenagers. There was no booze. And Rodney played all the English hits that the American kids didn't get a chance to hear. Like, you know, Bowie, all the stuff that were hits in England.

Sweet, Slade, Suzy Quatro. Full glam. Yeah, the full Gary Glitter. This whole vibe that just was non-existent in the States. He was on the radio. He was like the first guy to bring Bowie to the States, too, wasn't he, I think? Or wasn't he one of them? Yeah, yeah kenny's nodding you can say yes yeah i'm not i i know that he went to the the club there's pictures of uh bowie there bowie

there at uh you know again 72 73 those are like the heydays i got there right at the end they closed maybe eight months after I started going. Why'd they close? Did they get in trouble? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if they got in trouble. I think it was just maybe business, you know.

Because it was an underage disco, right? Yeah. It was primarily for young people. Yeah. I can't imagine that that wasn't a problem in the 70s. I can only imagine. They couldn't make money. They couldn't make money.

There was probably illicit drugs being sold like every club. Yeah. But they couldn't make money without the liquor. But it wasn't full of like predators and weirdos? I didn't, you know, I didn't see it. Yeah. Like it wasn't, my brain wasn't there. Well, it didn't come at you, so you would know if that.

Right, exactly. You know, you can only assume. Sure. Yeah. It had to be around. So that's where you started to get into like meeting people? you would know if that coming right exactly yeah you know you can only assume sure yeah yeah i had to be around so that's where you started to get into like meeting people meeting people and and just uh being around like-minded people right that and i thought well wow man there's got to be girls around someplace in this scene that that play instruments So I just tried to put the word out. I knew a girl named Carrie Crome

that wrote lyrics. She was a lyricist. Where'd you meet her? There? At the club, yeah, at Rodney's. And I thought she played an instrument. So I said, do you want to form an all-girl band?

And she said, I don't play. I just write lyrics, but maybe you should talk to my publisher. And that was Kim Fowley. So I did. I got the nerve to call Kim up I don't play, I just write lyrics, but maybe you should talk to my publisher. And that was Kim Fowley. Yeah. So I did, I got the nerve to call Kim up and said, you know, I play guitar

and I'd like to form, I want to form an all-girl band. And he said, well, can you send me a demo tape? And I didn't even know what a demo was. I mean, I'm talking serious, naive, you know? Right, well, how old are you, 15? Yeah, probably 15 at the time 15 16 yeah and you didn't know anything about him either i didn't know anything about him you know very peripherally just from from the club maybe seeing him standing around and stuff

but he's sort of an ominous guy wasn't he to other people yeah he was ominous. He was very tall, double-jointed, and he used that kind of stuff. He would dance. He just was very, could be very intimidating to a lot of people. And I guess that's what he did. He intimidated a lot of people. Well, he had this weird solo career, right, for years, right? Yes. Like, I don't know a lot about him other than he's sort of this bizarre Hollywood character,

you know, and outside of producing the right ways, that he had this almost demonic presence here and there. But he made some hits. Right. And he comes from the same area you did, right? The pop hits, in a way, like he did. Yeah. But he was an L.A. version. Right.

But he produced a group called The Mermaids, who had popsicles and icicles. Right. I think that was the number one. And he was also in the band, band, singing group. Yeah. That did Alley Oop, the Hollywood Argyles. The original Alley Oop. Yeah. And I think the Beach Boys covered it at some point, too.

What a great song. I know. In the doc, you got Iggy singing it. All right. So you meet up with Kim. Yeah. And he's asking for a demo. So he asked me for a demo.

I'm like, I don't have a demo. And, you know, we have a short conversation, and that's it. And I'm like, wow, I fucking blew that. You're 15. Yeah, yeah. But so he knew my name. So anyway, a couple nights later, Sandy West, who was the drummer of the Runaways, she lived down

in Orange County in Huntington Beach. And she played in a lot of bands with guys, like high school bands and doing local stuff. And she was 15.

Right. And she played drums like John Bonham. She was so intense. I mean, Yeah. Rest her soul. I mean,

she's not with us anymore. Oh, sorry. I mean, rest her soul. I mean, she's not with us anymore. Oh, sorry. But anyway, she drove up to Hollywood and hung out in the Rainbow parking lot. And that's, I guess, at the time, a lot of people would, after the Rainbow closed, people would hang out and a lot of stars would go there. It was crazy there. People would go and look for the stars. So Sandy went up

there and i guess she knew who kim was she walked up to him and said kim i i'm sandy and i play drums yeah and he said that's really interesting i met a girl the other night who plays guitar um and i think he gave her my phone number and uh yeah so like yeah she called me up and and that's how it started yeah who are the bands are like at Yeah, she called me up and... And that's how it started. Yeah. Who were the bands at the time, like at the Rainbow and at those places? I mean, we're talking, what are we talking, like 1973? 75?

Yeah. So, like, who was on the scene? Who were you watching? Who were you able to, you know... I mean, I guess you're a teenager, so it's hard to get in clubs, but who were the bands at that time that were really hot? Do you remember? I don't know.

I wasn't seeing bands live. We were more or less just hanging out at that club. But I know Led Zeppelin was really big, you know, and they were still the band. Yeah, yeah. Did you like Zeppelin? I did, definitely. So, okay, so you meet Sandy.

Now there's two of you. Yeah. And you still need to fill out the crew. Yeah, so I took a bus. So, okay, so you meet Sandy, now there's two of you. Yeah. And you still need to fill out the crew. Yeah, so I took a bus to Sandy's house, four buses actually with my guitar, and we went to her rec room, and we got along great. It was like just we hit it off really well, and we just started jamming on simple, wild thing kind of songs, stuff like that.

So after 15 minutes or so, we call up, let's call Kim. We call up Kim, put the phone down, say, listen to this. And we start playing whatever. And he said, sounds great. Let's go find some other people. So that's what we started to do. Sandy found Litaita somewhere i guess through friends that she knew um and uh it's amazing to me though that that like he knew he could hear

the drums and the guitar and he's like i can work with this like he's like well it's definitely unique yeah and we could play so it was wow you know this is something that could work how great was that feeling to just be in that rec room i mean just for that first time oh it was great it must have been really you know like those are those memories right totally and it was you know your teenage dream happening yeah so you got these other you got the other girls yeah and and then what happens you go do you make a demo or do you make the record? How does it work? We recorded really quickly. Yeah, we went in the studio right away. As soon as we had... We actually made a recording as a three-piece as well.

It was you and Sandy and... And Mickey Steele was the first bass player who then went on to form the Bangles. Oh, okay. So she was the original bass player, but it just didn't work out. I don't know if she wasn't grooving or whatever. We came to part ways. Yeah.

Didn't get too ugly, though? No. No, no. Not at all. And so, yeah, then we went out looking for another lead singer. Yeah. Kim and I were hanging out in a disco. Yeah.

Saw Cherie Curry and her twin sister dancing yeah said they look like they'd be great if they're on stage if they could sing it so we yeah we asked sheree if she sang and she said she did we said come and audition back in the rec room or did you go to the studio no no we went to a rehearsal studio. And she showed up with sort of a, I don't even, I can't remember what the song was, but it was something, it was easy listening. Yeah, oh really? And we were not into that, you know, and so we didn't know what to do. And so Kim says, we're going to write a song.

So Kim and I went out to another part of, another room, another rehearsal room, and just started jamming. I started playing some chords, and actually we came up with a chorus first. And so it went from writing, hello daddy, hello mom, I'm your cherry bomb. Yeah. And then we came up with the rest of it. We probably didn't come up with the finished lyrics right at that point, but had enough for her to sing. So after 20 minutes, we went back in there and said,

Sing this. Yeah. And she did, and she owned it. She took a hold of it and made it her own, and that was that. And the Runaways are born. Yeah, basically. And you recorded like shortly after that?

Yeah, because we had already had several songs we had written since the couple months we had been together. Right. We were writing and working and writing and touring,

you know, not touring, but playing all around the city, South Bay. You did play out? Oh, yeah, yeah. We played everywhere but Hollywood, yeah. Before the first record came out?

Yeah. And how were you received in general? You know, when you're playing these little clubs, right, or bars and stuff? Yeah. Hard to say initially. I don't remember. Yeah. It was good.

Yeah. It was okay. We were playing things like house parties. Yeah. You know, things like that. Who was booking you? Kim was just getting you these gigs? Yeah, Kim and I, I'm sure there were some other people involved because he wasn't a businessman on that level.

He didn't really book the tours and stuff. You didn't feel the pushback yet because I know, like you said early on, even your guitar teacher at first was wary of a woman playing rock music and you know like in the documentary you go into a bit about that but you didn't feel that immediately that people were like what the fuck are these chicks doing with guitars no i think i was too overwhelmed with being excited with what we're doing having fun yeah yeah it wasn't until we started doing press and things like that where they started, yeah, I don't even know if it was specifically for the record, but I'm sure it was.

And, you know, we started getting asked all kinds of weird questions that I couldn't even tell you. So when the record came out, the first record, that's like 19, what? 76. You're like 18 years old? No, I was 17. 17. And it's a big deal right i mean like how how was the first album received when it came out what what was the push behind it how did it how did it

go it was well we had a bit uh we were on mercury records i believe it big label right yeah and i think they uh actually worked on yeah promoting it had a good angle, right? And we were on the charts, I believe. For Cherry Bomb. Yeah, yeah. For that first album, we may have charted. And Cherry Bomb definitely charted.

We charted. Yeah. And so now you're like, what happens next? Do you start... I didn't realize until I looked it up after I watched the movie that this is like,

you're coming out at the same time, really, as the Ramones, as the Sex Pistols. That all happened simultaneously. Yeah. Because I know you had relationships with these bands later on.

Yeah, yeah. But you're right there. No, I had it right there. I had relationships with them right then. Oh, you did? Yeah. So you were on their radar even though it was a different coast,

so everyone knew about everybody. Pretty much. Yeah. And being on the road, we'd run into each other. Oh, yeah? And the Runaways eventually wound up, we did a three-month tour with the Ramones, which was amazing.

But Led Zeppelin knew who they were, too. What's that? Led Zeppelin knew who the Runaways were and came to one of their gigs. Oh, yeah? Wearing Runaways t-shirts, yeah. Yeah, there's pictures of Joan with Robert Plant when she was 16 or something along that. Yeah, yeah. Is that true?

Do you get to meet them and hang out? Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. And they were decent guys, right? They were. Yeah, yeah. Is that true? Do you get to meet him and hang out? Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. And they were decent guys, right? They were very nice, yeah. And then friends in the 80s. Yeah. We went on tour with Robert when we had whatever hits there were for us at that moment,

and he had I'm in a Mood for a Melody, Now and Zen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, we were touring with him. Like that first solo record or second solo record after Zeppelin? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at yeah, we were touring with them. Like that first solo record or second solo record after Zeppelin? Yeah, yeah. So at that time, like, music is blowing up, right?

There's a whole New York scene, and you're part of the L.A. scene now into, like, 76. So who were the other bands around that were kind of breaking through then? In L.A.? Yeah. Oh, man. Because you must have seen them when you were playing out and around. Because after the first record, you were able to play in town, right? Van Halen opened for the Runaways.

Really? Oh, yeah. They were a band that was struggling to get noticed. Tom Petty opened for the Runaways. He opened for you? The Heartbreakers did? Yes. No kidding.

Contemporaries of the Talking Heads. Sure. Chrissy Hine, who was friends with her before Joan was well-known. Chrissy adopted her. It's so weird that time of music, right, Kenny? Like, there was so much different types of music going on. That was really sort of like all variations. Because, like, if you look at the Heartbreakers and Van Halen

and then the Runaways, they're all different type of bands. It's all rock music. Exactly. But it all worked together. Of course. Yeah. But it was also, like, I tom petty and the runaways and obviously the ramones and talking heads was part of what they later called new wave yeah sure yeah but van halen to me was

not part of the new wave no no no i think i think the first heartbreakers album i just snuck in there yeah but they right new wave but then they became more of a pop you know a rock band yeah I think the first Heartbreakers album, I just snuck in there. Right? New Wave, but then they became more of a pop, a rock band. Yeah, yes, yes, yes. All right, so now you're making it, and now you're feeling, how's the band holding up under the success? Now is when you start getting pushback for being a girl group a little bit? Totally, yeah. But not from other bands necessarily?

Do you feel from other bands uh some bands yeah some bands but most bands were okay but there were definitely you know vibes from some bands like people making fun of us and yeah laughing side stage throwing stuff on the stage really oh yeah just, yeah. Just because you were girls? Yeah, yeah. Just because you were women. I guess, and maybe we were doing well, and they, you know, were worried about their gig. Oh, yeah, but you had jealousy. Yeah.

Or something. I don't know, you know? Well, you know, it's a shitty business trying to make it in rock and roll or in comedy. There's always going to be jealous assholes.

I was one of them for years. Well, it was always weird to me that people would be so nasty. I get it if you don't like it. It was a gender thing. Don't listen, you know, but people were... It was a gender. Totally a gender thing. It was a gender thing. Don't listen, you know, but people were- It was a gender. Totally a gender thing.

It was a gender bias. Yeah, yeah. When I was in England and they made a law that they had to hire an equal amount of women or at least a better percentage. Yeah. Because there were no women in the recording industry. Yeah.

And I remember one of the execs said you know studio is a stag scene there's really no place for a woman right yeah and like of course everyone yeah of course but then why you know but when you were younger I mean they they were definitely girl groups but they weren't looked at in the same way they had to be dainty uh-huh they had to be cute songs some of the some of the um uh r&b groups yeah could do the church thing and sweat a bit yeah like our friend darlene love yeah but even when she was in the blossoms on shindig yeah uh they were just really not supposed to be sweating yeah Yeah, oh, right, right.

They were supposed to be ladylike? Ladylike, yes. Didn't Tina Turner break that shit open? Well, there's always like one. Wow, you can't sweat? I mean, come on, man. But you know what? Tina did not become big until much later.

I mean, really big, big. Right, as a solo act. She was Phil phil specter's great failure with river deep mountain high that that didn't achieve what he thought it would achieve yeah and but then later on she had that in her 50s i think she was the stones helped her get going yeah she had those hits huge hits yeah did you know specter yes did you see it coming whatever whatever happened? He was a nasty guy. Yeah. Yeah, he was not a nice fella. He wasn't warm and fuzzy.

Yeah. And he was a bully. Yeah, very threatened by everything. Threatened, and then he would have bodyguards, or some of the people he worked with, like Anderson Poncier, great writers, wrote some hits with him. They were tough guys. Yeah, right.

So he had songwriters who could write hits and still beat up people because he always wanted to start fights with people yeah well he's you know he ended up very badly bad man well karma yeah he probably deserved to be there a long time before that god knows what he did that he got away with yeah right right so all right so what happened to the runawaysways? The second album, you charted in the first album and then you put out, you only did three albums

and a live album, right? We did four studio albums and a live album. Right after, one right after the other. Pretty much every year, one a year pretty much. And you're touring

bigger venues as each one happens? Like, is it getting bigger or are you just kind of? Yeah, to a degree. Yeah. And we played different gigs with different bands so some were bigger and some were smaller yeah you know you did some opening thousand seats 1500 kind of did you open for any big uh for the big bands were you on that

kind of trajectory where you'd like open for like a zeppelin or somebody like that you opened for the tubes i know that was yeah that was early on that was 70 early 76 maybe even 75 yeah fee weevil was that his name fee weevil something like that yeah what's it white punks on dope was that it was that their big yes that's yes did you do that up in san francisco or were down here? I think it was We did it up there Yeah Because I think They're a Bay Area outfit They are Yeah Yeah

Yeah And actually Their choreographer Kenny Ortega Who's now a big director Right Yeah Was

Worked with us To help us Work on some stage Moves Yeah Because I guess we felt More It wasn't really moves.

Right. I guess some of it was, but more about just being comfortable in the space, you know. Yeah, yeah. It was sort of like, and also knowing when to, you know, move up to the audience. Yeah, yeah. And when to go back. You know, just having a sense of the stage. Yeah, yeah.

Putting on a little show. You know, a little bit of choreography. You know, the guitarist moving, but that was right in the beginning of that. You know, now it's so cliche that. Sure. Yeah, putting on a little show. You know, a little bit of choreography. You know, the guitar is moving, but that was right in the beginning of that. You know, now it's so cliche that... Sure. Yeah, yeah. And now you've got your own moves. Yeah, now you don't have to.

Hopefully it just comes out. Right. Yeah, eventually. So now the popularity in the States didn't take off as much as it did elsewhere? Is that what happened? Yeah. Well, I never really felt the Runaways achieved what they could have. I mean, I guess I was always sort of

felt the push from the press. I never felt really successful in the United States. Yeah. Even though, you know, we got okay coverage. But a lot of it could be nasty. Yeah, they just kind of marginalized you? Yeah. Depending on what, or just took shots.

Made everything we were doing seem like it was unnatural. Uh-huh. When it's totally natural. There were people that were offended. Uh-huh. That's what I would say. Offended? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Very offended. There were people who were offended that- We had the audacity. Yeah, they were going into a stag scene. We had the audacity to dare do this. It's crazy. You know, once you get that vibe,

once they show you that they think it's audacious that you're doing that. Right, who are you to do this? Then it's like, okay, man, all shit. Okay, now now jacket gets thrown down on the ground it's it yeah i'm in we're going all the way yeah fuck you know and this that's you know pretty early on that you felt this yeah did all the girls feel it i'm sure we all did to a different degree right we all handled it i think differently you know i mean i i remember early on somebody asking me a section a question about sex yeah and i thought if i answer this question

that's all the runaways music will be about and i mean it already people are focused too much on the sexuality or whatever i mean that just comes with the nature, I guess, of being girls playing rock and roll. Right. Obviously. But if I answer this question, that's all it's going to be about. What was the question? I don't even remember,

but I have to steer them to music. This is about music, dude. Right, yeah. But you caught that right away. Yeah, and it was like that universe thing where it comes into your head loud, don't answer this yeah yeah because it would have trivialized totally totally and i got it on a deep right level they were trying to box you in don't you know don't let them do this and so you know

that's kind of been well that's interesting because like, like, did that, well, how did, like, you were sort of the leader of the band, right? Nah, I didn't think of it that way. I mean, I thought we were all. Kim used to say she was the soul of the band. Uh-huh. Yeah. We all were, you know, integral pieces of the band, I felt. Yeah, yeah.

It was like a team yeah you know so it was easy for me to brag about that because you know it wasn't about me but that's john's humility john was writing the songs and singing half of the leads yeah so yeah i'd say she's a leader so now when you go to like japan and like wherever you went toward europe now were these were you getting the welcome that you, like were you all of a sudden playing for like 5,000 people, like big ass shows? Yes, yes.

That must have been tremendous. It was unbelievable. And that was after what, the second album? After, yeah, I guess our first tour overseas was after the second album, I believe. And is that when you met Chrissy Hynde and that crew, those people no i've known chrissy uh probably before that oh yeah before that i'm not i'm not really sure because she was living in england for a while i know that yeah yeah they were on the road too she might have ever said that's when i met her than me but yeah

but um so that was sort of you at least had some camaraderie there. At least you had a strong woman. I felt like the British certainly were exposed, and the Europeans as well, were exposed to a wider variety of music in general, I think, as popular music. So I think they were just generally more accepting. They thought it was different and weird, it was still rock and roll they didn't give us that same level of uh right shit like you should not be here kind of thing it seems like between the press and and some of the other the bands that there was where they were really threatened here and i think that you know going overseas like you're you've already got that

freedom like you're not you know You're not in their scene. You're not English. So you're just a band from America that sounds good. And that must have been a relief to go into that environment. Did you meet that first tour of England? Is that where you met the Pistols and those people? We met all kinds of people, yeah. A lot of the coolmy over yes in fact

lemmy was we did our first show in london yeah with motorhead we opened for them yeah and um lemmy let me wear his bullet belt yeah i thought he was giving it to me i'm like oh my god he's giving me that belt right after the show he's like Give me my belt But you know Lemmy and I Were close His whole life And uh That shows you He's a guy

You know That's a man He's not threatened by He's not threatened by Strong women Yeah You know And um

He didn't seem like He was threatened by much Yeah but I mean You know When you're around a guy like that He's not threatened by you It's very easy To just

Relax Yeah yeah You know Yeah When you're around a guy like that, it's not threatened by you. It's very easy to just relax. Hang out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah. And not have to be on guard. Did you feel more comfortable over there in England? Well, I wouldn't say more comfortable than being at home.

Yeah. I felt musically comfortable. Yeah, definitely. And when we went to Japan, oh, man, it it was like you can only compare it to something like the beatles it was crazy and it was all girls yeah all teenage girls right so that was kind of we didn't get it it was kind of confusing and then we realized you know oh women have a tough time here too right kind of looked at as second class citizens so we were sort of heroes i guess yeah and it was i mean they were rocking

the car i mean it was really intense you know i think a little scary to some of them oh yeah not for me i thought i was excited to be clear japan they were superstars yeah in scandinavia they were superstars oh yeah it wasn't so much England. England, they were in the papers, but they were treated like cartoon characters almost. Oh, really? In England. But in Sweden, they were having hit singles. Right. In Sweden, we got off a plane, and totally unexpected.

All teenage girls, all these blonde teenage girls wearing real pacifiers, real rubber pacifiers. I'm like, what the fuck is this? You know, I guess it was some, I never found out. It must have been some fad that teenage girls wear real pacifiers. So somebody, I guess, was it you? You gave me a pacifier, a silver one, you know, a little silver pacifier that I wore for years and years to commemorate that.

Oh, wow. Until my dog chewed it up. Right. But you guys weren't together then, though, right? Yet? No. Not for that. No.

No. We met at the tail end of the Runaways, the wreckage of the Runaways. So what happens to the Runaways, ultimately? You do four records. Is it getting worse? What's pulling it apart? Yeah, it's getting worse. I never understand this with bands.

Yeah, it's getting worse. What is? I think, well, just the whole cohesion of the band. We went to Japan. Yeah. I think that was the beginning of the end. Something happened over there. I mean, it's discussed a little bit in the movie, but...

With Cherie. Cherie did a big tour booklet. Right. And it was sort of like all in her bathing suit and her corset. It was very sort of soft, poor, pornish. Yeah, yeah. And she told us that she didn't know that we didn't know. But look.

Who said that? We were together all the time. There's no way that she wouldn't say, as an aside, hey, hey, John, I'm doing this photo shoot. Are you guys doing one? Yeah. You know, I knew. So obviously they were trying to keep it secret

until there was nothing the rest of the band could do about it. And Kim set it up? I don't know who set it up. Kim, we had another guy that was kind of a road manager guy named Scott. Yeah. He might have set it up. Right. But I don't know.

And it was in conjunction with the record label. Yeah. So, you know, everybody knew but the rest of us. And this was upsetting to the rest of the band. Why? Because it made it seem like The Runaways was all Cherie and just sex.

Sexualizing. Right. The big no-no. The thing you wanted to avoid. Totally. Totally. And it was like, what? Yeah.

What are you, out of your mind? Yeah. And at this point, Cherie she was like I don't care she was she thought she didn't need us she was like you guys are holding me because really sure he's more into pop pop your music she's softer music she's not doesn't really love rock and roll right Right. It's not her thing. Yeah. And, you know, I respect that, but she, you know, had it. I guess she was done and wanted to go pursue her own thing and thought, you know, I don't need this.

So she just kind of left. Right after Japan. Yeah. So that was after, so, and that was, you had done, did you do a record without her or you didn't? Yes, we did an album after, two albums after that, actually. Yeah, and you did all the singing? I did all the singing, yeah, most of it.

Actually, Sandy sang lead on a song, Lita might have sang lead on a song on our last album. And now, with Cherie, is that your third name? Yeah. You guys are friends again, no? Yeah? After the band broke up, we didn't really speak much. Oh, yeah, we speak now. Yeah.

But right afterwards, it was very weird. So after you do the two records with you being the front person, what stops the band after that? How did it come unhinged again or finally disband? Well, I think for the press and for the record label and everybody, they felt they lost the blonde lead singer. Yeah.

You know, they're looking at it like that. I was just this sort of punk rock rhythm guitar player. Right. I'm not going to be that person that gets people excited. Oh, really? I guess. I mean, that's what I'm guessing, you you know the way they look at girls yeah i was just you know too whatever right for them and um and also then within the band musical differences started coming out because sandy

always you know she was a heavy drummer she liked heavy music uh zeppelin and you know hard rock yeah and so did lita yeah and they both liked heavier music than what i liked i was more straight up rock and roll punk rock right kind of stuff and so the last album that we did we was a producer named john alcock who did hard music, I guess. And personally, I feel he probably worked on those differences. Oh, really? Right, right. I don't really know, but I just know that a lot of the songs were harder.

Yeah. And I thought, you know what? I don't like the direction this is going. I don't want to get fired from a band that I started. Yeah. So why don't we just dissolve this? Because they wanted to go in a heavier direction, and I didn't.

And so instead of having a big argument, let's just part ways. I don't know, but that was it. So it was musical differences. Pretty much, yeah. So now you're out. You're out of a gig. You're out of a band.

Did you ever meet Johnny Thunders? No, I don't think so, yeah. From the New York Dolls and from the Heartbreakers? When we did the Bad Reputation album, which was originally Joan Jett, we did it in the Who's studio called Ramport in London. Yeah. And Johnny Thunders was recording at night, and we were recording during the day. Oh, yeah.

So, yeah, Johnny doesn't remember. He's going to say because he died soon after that. We used to see him almost every night. When we came in the morning, they would be leaving, and there would be the residue of white powder all over the desk. Yeah, he was a drug monster. They were pretty wild. Yeah, yeah.

He must have died soon after that. Yeah, it couldn't have been that much longer. Maybe a couple years or something. Yeah, a sad one. That was sad. A hotel room in New Orleans or something. Someone robbed him and OD'd bad. bad so when you so what so that in the in the doc you know it really depicts that time where your band list is like existentially horrendous like you just didn't know you know what you were

going to do yeah i was totally lost i was down and you were here in this town yeah and you got what you were getting pretty fucked up pretty fucked up yeah how long that go on for um i guess i don't know we met in the summer i thought we met in the early summer of that year like yeah maybe it was earlier it was we met yeah but when you met him were you like you know you know you're in trouble? You got to get cleaned up. We got to figure out what we're going to do here. I didn't know the extent of the drug use. I think she put on her best face anyway. And although she didn't look, she wasn't well-groomed.

Did you get strung out? No, I wasn't addicted to anything i just partied too much but she was drinking a lot oh the drink and it bloated her yeah so she was like just different than she was in her own ways but when i met her i just got taken with her music. Yeah. You know, that we wrote. She played the guitar. She sang the song. And the first song that we worked on together was You Don't Know What You Got Till It's Gone.

And that one, she got to the chorus and she went, Oh, baby! And I went, Whoa! There's somebody who looks like Joan with a black leather jacket. I remember it. I don't think she really had razor blades, but I always remembered razor blades. And it was a scene. And she came in, but she also knew how to let it hang out.

We met to do a project. Right. The Runaways, it's signed to do a movie and i was supposed to write songs for it yeah and then we broke up and i did but i didn't want to get sued right because the movie thing was still happening yeah so uh my manager at the time toby mamis thought you know we should write these songs so he what movie reached i don't even know it wound up we called being called dabidio but it was one of some mama we're all crazy now was the original yeah mama we're all crazy now it was a weird porno you said yeah like dabidio it's called or something yeah yeah

they i don't know what it is but you feel that you you honored that contract i under the contract and met kenny to write the songs. We had to write six songs in three days or something, which we did. You and Kenny. Yes. And it could have just ended there.

Right. It could not even happen. Right. My wife was reading about Joan in the British, those music magazines. Yes. And Meryl said,

you should meet Joan Jett. She's going to be something. She looks significant. My wife, she spotted it in the newspaper. Oh, yeah, yeah. She thought, yeah, because otherwise I probably wouldn't have gone. I had to go all the way from England to California. You were in England at the time?

I was in England. I got the phone call. Were you living there? Yeah. I had a residence in New York and England at the same time for a while. Now, when you were in that zone where you were sort of like rudderless or depressed, now, I mean, you must have seen, was there part of you that got scared of where you were in the sense that like a lot of the people you hung out with, it like were dying yeah i mean like you know you spent time with sid vicious yeah and

that like ended like as bad as a drug scene could end it ended that way for him totally and you must have seen a lot of that totally and you didn't want to go down like that did you have that did you have that moment where you're like and fuck? And I knew I was kind of heading in that direction. And yeah, it's definitely scary. Because I always felt very alone. It's when nobody's around. You're drinking alone. Nobody wants to talk to you.

Oh, yeah. You're that person. Drinking a lot and doing other things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely know. Yeah, yeah. I got off of that shit, too. But, you know, then I thought, well, you know what?

Maybe I'll join the military, you know? But I was serious. I thought I'm going to, otherwise I'll die. I'll learn something. I'll get some discipline. I'll travel. I'll meet people, you know. Better than prison.

I hope I won't die, yeah. Or prison, right? Right, yeah, that'll get you in shape. So, you know, I was seriously thinking about it. And then I met Kenny, and I didn't have to go that route. But it always made me recognize that, and that's why I like to, when I can, do stuff for the troops and play for them

and do different things. Yeah. Because they're just like me. They are me. It could have been me. I almost went. Yeah. So, you know, just I have that sort of recognition.

Sure. Yeah, yeah, the sensitivity, the empathy. Everybody doesn't join to go fight and kill people. Right. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, because you do a lot of stuff for the troops, right? I've done things, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So I think that's interesting about the partnership that you guys created. Your music history is very specific before her. Yes. That Buddha Records was making a specific type of music, and we talked about that a little before with Kim Foley, who also did, what would you call it, bubblegum pop? What's the word for it? Well, I get the very smallest definition for bubble gum, which was the Buddha thing. And the head of Buddha, Neil Bogart, named it bubble gum.

Yeah. Ohio Express, 1910 Fruit Gum Company. Other people define it like Jeff Barry says, it's Teddy Bear by Elvis. Right, right. It's a type of hit, though. Yeah. You're trying to make hits. Yeah.

Well, it's the way of looking at it. I look at it that this Buddha thing that I was part of, that's the bubble gum and other pop music. Yeah. But then other people think Tommy Rowe, who did Dizzy, and maybe even the Partridge family. I look at them as a television phenomenon, like the Monkees. But I don't look at it as bubblegum, but other people do. Well, what were some of the songs you were involved in? It's pop music, though.

Yeah, definitely. Well, Yummy Yummy, Chewy Chewy, 1-2-3 Red Lights. Moany Moany. Moany Moany. He's the big dun, dun, chewy, chewy, one, two, three, red lights. Moany, moany. Moany, moany. He's the big dun, dun, dun. Oh, that's him on the piano? On organ. On organ.

Yeah, there's a piano there, too, but what you hear is the organ. And you played with Tommy James. Oh, yeah. Tommy was the Led Zeppelin of bubblegum. Yeah. And then you guys covered Crimson and Clover. Yeah. You did the best job with that song.

And I like Tommy's version, but I love your version. I can listen to your version. It kills me. It kills me. Tommy's version doesn't kill me as much. You did something with that song. So that's your, and you were producing and playing. Playing, sometimes writing.

So when you saw her, and coming from where you come from, like a sort of a hit-making ideology, because if you listen, your first record rocks hard, but there's something about the production that made it very accessible. Now, are you conscious of that? Yes. Yes, and I'm also conscious that, you know, because John being a woman, me being a guy,

it's backwards because the poppy parts come from me and the deep, heavy, menacing rock and roll parts come from her. You know, not 100% either way. No, but it's an incredible balance. What was the song that really pushed you guys through? Was it Bad Reputation? Well, Bad Rep was one of the very first on the radio on Do You Want to Touch Me?

Yeah. That also, both of them were happening on our own label at AOR Radio at once. Yeah. And, you know, that's something that really doesn't happen today. I suppose there's another form of it happening on streaming services,

but we were able to take a record that had no label behind it and bring it to radio stations. And they played those two songs. But, you know, we didn't know how to read it. You drove it around? What, in the car? Yes. We would book clubs. Was this after you couldn't get a label?

Was this on your label? Yes. So her first record was an independent record. Yes. Because you couldn't sell it anywhere? Exactly. Because of the same problems you always had? Because, yeah.

Well, it got worse. Yeah, yeah. Polygram, which was Mercury. Yeah. Every Girl in the Runaways, Sandy West, Lita, Cherie, those three, they all got record deals. Right. And Joan didn't get a record deal from the American company. What was the reasoning?

They didn't give it to you. It's all crazy things. The head of marketing for Atlantic Records once said to me, she's got to stop hiding behind that guitar and get out there and rock like Pat Benatar. What the fuck? I mean, give me a break. And there was... No slight to Pat Benatar, but it's just, you know.

Yeah. Joan was a punk rocker in the band. The others were not punk rockers at all. Cherie, I think, you know, going back to that story, I think the song she brought in to sing was Mandy by Barry Manilow. Yeah, for the Runaways or something like that. I think it was a Manilow song. Oh, man.

Lita wanted to take her head off. And then the other girls were Ronnie Dio fans. That's all right. It is sort of a punk glam hybrid almost, right? That's what we were shooting for. That's exactly what, yeah. So after the first record you put out on your own,

you get some juice, right? I mean, it was a big record, right? It was pretty big, but it still wasn't enough that people kissed our ass. And this is the thing, because Kenny, like you said, he knows a bunch of guys

and people in the business. He's been in the business. So he figured, I'll get you on a deal in a heartbeat. He thought it was going to be easy. And then he started running into these walls, which, I mean, you saw in the movie, all the letters of these guys writing, saying,

and at the top, which is the best part, it refers to all the songs they heard. I Love Rock and Roll, Crimson and Clover, Do You Want to Touch Me, Bad Reputation, and I think one other one. Yeah. All of which were hits. And all these letters say,

you need a song search, sorry, not for us. Right. So they don't listen to what they get. They've already decided, no matter what, we don't want her,

let's just give some lame excuse. Yeah. But whatever, they heard all these hits and they're passing so it just shows you know they've i don't know they prejudged or they still like ingrained sexism to the whole thing or whatever and he thought it was gonna be easy but it wasn't easy and then he got pissed well wait a minute a lot of bands when they start

people don't hear it the beatles were turned down by Mercury, of all labels, every week for a year in the beginning. It's hard. A lot of bands do get turned down, yeah. But there was that other thing going on that you referenced. The sexism. Yeah, the sexism was pretty intense, and I was kind of really surprised.

It was like people were emotionally offended, as I said before. Isn't that something? Yeah. I mean, why am I saying that? It's completely obvious. But it wasn't just like

an intellectual sort of, no, we're not interested, Kenny. Yeah. It's like they had, they got emotional too about it. Angry. Yeah. Right.

They were insulted. Right. And so Kenny, knowing me and now being friends, he's insulted back. What do you mean? You know, what do you mean? Now, not just me being angry about life and trying to explain it to everybody and nobody gets it. Now, he gets it.

And he's with me and he gets it from the ground level, what I'm feeling. He's getting that same stuff. Yeah. Even more, because they're probably saying shit they wouldn't say to me to him. Right, yeah. And you say, fuck you, I'm going to put out the next album too. Well, we had no choice. By then we were just like treading water.

No, we wanted to be on a label. Sure, yeah. But they didn't want us, and thank but they didn't want us and thank god they didn't want us because now we own everything yeah it works out thanks a lot dude so so i love rock and roll you put out and that was it that was the big one right right yeah but we were doing a lot of things that you know became the future right we were selling the records at the gigs no rock and roll bands were doing that no pop bands were doing it as a matter of fact when we finally made a deal we did a deal with um cbs records sony and i told them i wanted to sell the records at the gigs they were going that's ridiculous you know you know then

then it became a thing now we don't even have records so right that's so you were swapping the records around yeah yeah i'm in the trunk of the car, yeah. At the end of the gig, we would open up the trunk, and I'd sit there, and I'd be collecting like $3 a record. I wasn't thinking about royalties or nothing. It was the first record or the second record? The first record. First record.

So how much are you touring at that point? A lot? Oh, yeah, a lot. A lot. And how many of the original bands are still with you? Nobody. Nobody. Yeah.

Just us two. Yeah, the two of us. with you nobody nobody yeah just us two yeah but the drama who's now off the road because he he had an illness yeah but he's still with us and does the records uh tommy price yeah he he started with us in 84 yeah and he actually played for a minute in 80 so he he's been around a while. And so, okay, so the second record is a huge hit. Now you can tour big rooms again and you're a rock star, right? Yeah, to a degree, yeah. To a degree, still to a degree?

Well, you're not going to get her to admit she's a rock star. But I admit it. She's a rock star. But you're having like a profound effect what's interesting is like in the book you know

Kathleen Hanna is in there a lot from Bikini Kill and that you had no real idea you know how many of these the next generation

of women in rock music you were influencing no I don't really have a and I didn't i think i just kind of keep my head down and and right plow forward and you know once in a while you look up and you you see people you know what you're what you're affecting and i had no idea that you produced

that germs record i mean that's like yeah that's like one of the most important la punk records ever and that was in your your downtime right when you were lost yeah pretty much and you were just like bouncing around la in that scene and you were like we are you a little older than them right yeah yeah and a couple years and so we were hanging out with these this generation of of kids who were doing that music and they that's one of the most important punk rock records ever it's amazing when people tell me that you know know? It's just, I was lucky, I've been really lucky to be in the right place

at the right time with a lot of these bands. What was your relationship with them? Well, the germs of Darby Crash who was the lead singer and Pat Smear

who was the guitar player who's now with Foo Fighters. Right, and he played with Nirvana as well. Nirvana as well. Wow, I mean,

that's a career too right yeah but they were huge runaways fans uh-huh and they i remember them we met they were hanging out outside the studio in i believe it was santa monica brothers studios which was the beach boys studios i believe were studio they worked at um and that's where we were recording some of the Runaway's second album. And they were out there hanging out. Yeah. They said they were fans and they wanted to form a band. And they did.

I said, do it. Yeah. And so we just always stayed friends. I give credit for the Runaways. It's just the reason they became a band. Oh, yeah, yeah. credit for the runaways is the reason they became a band oh yeah yeah and and the funny thing the bass player that we had for i love rock and roll yeah gary ryan gary morse ryan yeah his girlfriend at the time was lana doom the bass player of the germs so yeah it was like a little

family scene going on and when you like in dar Darby was kind of out of control, but beautifully out of control. He was beautifully out of control, definitely. He was a beautiful spirit. He just was a wild man. This world couldn't contain him. Very smart. He was a very smart guy. But what, did the booze get him? What was it? Just everything? He OD'd. Yeah, I think, yeah. Very smart. He was a very smart guy. But what, did the booze get him?

What was it? Just everything? He OD'd. Yeah, I think, yeah. I'm not specifically sure. He OD'd the day John Lennon got shot. So that was not a good day for us. That's terrible. For rock and roll.

So you put out like a record pretty much almost every couple of years, you know, since Bad Reputation, right? Right. And you've had several hits over the years and you're still out there. You play, right, all the time? Yeah, pretty much. And like in the doc, it really shows that, you know, a lot of these women that you inspired have come forward and brought you into the fold in a way. come forward and and and brought you into the fold in a way now i have to assume that you know that must be pretty emotionally gratifying and and nice it is it's very

because you didn't know no i was not really aware of of that yeah i didn't know where i wasn't aware of how much it was actually reaching women yeah girls yeah yeah and now they come up to you and they and like there must be hundreds of them there are it's it's it's really really special and um you know it's motivating it keeps me motivated yeah and tell me about this event because i talked to a friend of mine who's from seattle about the about the gits in that situation. Because I didn't know about it. When Mia Zapata was murdered, raped and murdered up there. And you heard about that.

What year is that? That's 80... That was in the 90s. Oh, it was in the 90s? 90, like 90... Oh, I don't want to say the wrong year. It was early 90s. Uh-huh, yeah.

And how'd you hear about it? What happened? I was doing a lot of work out west up in Seattle. I was writing a lot of- Blackheart Records had a band in Seattle right around the grunge explosion called Metal Church. They were originally an indie band, so they were the first one, and they charted.

Yeah. So we were there, and then- And did you know Mia? church uh-huh they were originally indie band so they were the first one and they charted yeah so we were there yeah and then and did you know mia no i did not know me or the gets but you know i knew a lot of the people the same scene yeah we're all in the same scene yeah and you know so when i heard about it i just thought oh, it so easily could be any of us. But how many times have I walked home late at night, maybe a little drunk, just alone? And that's the situation she was in. And you figure you can handle yourself, but she couldn't. And I don't know.

So everybody wanted to try to do something to raise money to help the cops because the cops could do a limited amount, I suppose, or people felt they weren't doing enough to hire a private investigator. So initially we did a benefit concert in Seattle. Initially it started out as just this one night. Yeah. And we thought, wow, you know, that was as just this one night. Yeah. And we thought, wow, you know, that was really, really weirdly cool. Yeah. You know, in a sad way. But yeah,

but it was honoring her. Yes. You know, why don't we do a little tour and use that money to, you know, keep the private eye going. And they got it, huh? So we did that. Yeah, we did that. And they did, you know, like 10 years afterwards. No kidding. That long? It was 2003, somewhere around there. I get a phone call.

No hello. No nothing. It was Steve Moriarty, the drummer from the Gits. He just said, we got him. Wow. And it was,

they got him down in the Keys someplace down in Key them. Wow. And it was, they got them down in the Keys someplace, down in Key West or something. That hardly ever happens. Yeah. Some other thing. They'd done something else and they ran the DNA. Interesting. That whole scene was so, like, unique, really, that how many bands came out of there. Yeah.

Yeah, really. Tons. And, like, you were up there for that. So, like, you saw came out of there. Yeah, yeah, really, tons. And like you were up there for that, so like you saw it sort of starting. I mean, because that was like, it was like way post-punk and it was a new approach to, you know, raw rock and roll.

Yeah. It must have been fucking exciting. It was, it was. I didn't see a lot of live shows while I was there, though. No? You don't seem to see a lot of live shows, do you? No, I'm always working.

Yeah. I saw a lot more shows when I was younger. You know, when I was sitting around, I lived across from the whiskey in la that's where i just saw slash oh yeah it's a great room it was the first time i ever been there yeah i live beyond the gas station it's the apartment building is still there oh yeah i drive by and i lived there i lived there it was a perfect party place and you. You're in the middle of everything. And I saw so many shows then. It's a magic room, that room.

Yeah, it's very nice. Have you played there lately? No, not lately. Yeah? Not in a long time. It's still really good. I mean, I assume. I just didn't have it.

I don't go out to a lot of live shows. It's a lot smaller than I remember. Right, tiny. When you're a kid, it seemed big. Yeah, yeah. But now, you know, you go in there, it's like, wow. So what do you guys do now? Like, you know, you're producing a lot of bands. L7's back?

Yeah, L7's back, and I think they're a good fit for our label. We have a band called Fea, which grew out of a band called girl in a coma and fair incredible they're punk punk band from austin san anton texas um we have the soundtrack from this from this movie yeah which is we have a great it's in the movie, we have a great, it's in the movie, but we have Miley, Lord Jane Grace, and Joan. So many people. Doing Androgynous. Oh, that's great. The Paul Westerberg song?

Yeah, the Paul Westerberg song, yeah. It's great. We have Joan singing Smells Like Teen Spirit. Yeah. From the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Yeah, with Dave Grohl. When Nirvana got inducted. That was something. You were great.

That was so great. It was so fun and so scary at the same time. Yeah. Well, think about it. It's like you're gonna play Smells Like Teen Spirit Nirvana. Yeah. At the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. With Nirvana.

Yeah. Now it's like petrifying, but you have to do it. Of course. I mean, I was compelled. Who asked you? Dave. I think Dave did. Yeah, yeah. And then he said, you're going to go first.

Yeah, okay. How long did it take you to get comfortable? A second? I actually was very strangely not nervous. I'm usually very nervous, like too nervous. You know what I mean? Like overly nervous. You got to work on getting your head out of there.

But I was pretty calm, actually. And Pat was up there too, right? Pat was up there. So that must have been comforting. Yeah, and we were all, you know, we all do know each other. We played together before, so I hadn't played with Chris,

but I think we had a sound check, so we had a chance to run it. So outside of the doc that's coming out, what are you guys doing? Are you just touring all the time? Because I know you do a lot of festivals now, and you seem to be involved with some good causes. What do you spend your time doing mostly?

Touring. Yeah, really? Yeah, we're on the road all the time. We're going to Australia in January. And I don't know what's happening. I know- You've been there before? Yes, not for a while.

You like it? What are you doing? Sydney, Melbourne? The whole country. Brisbane? A lot. We're doing a lot. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, it's a sold-out tour, thank God, because it's a long way to go to be empty. Well, they're very happy you come. They're excited you come, make the trip. That's nice. And we will do a little bit of politicking. Yeah? Yeah. Where?

Here? In the United States, yeah. Rock the vote kind of stuff? stuff no we don't have to work that well we should actually for some of those congressional california yeah yeah we're going to help tammy baldwin uh-huh in uh wisconsin um randy bryce uh-huh for paul ryan's seat we're working for him and then you know just what does that entail you do a gig we might do a gig we go to sometimes we go to people's apartments and they raise money that way now that's my preference because the concerts always you know you're dealing with people don't do concerts normally and you tend not to make a lot of money

that way the best way is you know if a celebrity can draw some people in and say maybe they bring like 20 30 big donors yeah and joan will stay there and you know and we'll meet and greet yeah yeah exactly and i like that way the best and for howard dean when we were with him who we adore yeah we actually went on a roll with him and we both gave little speeches and that's great yeah prime during the primaries yeah when we were on the stage when he gave when he said we're going to do yeah it was much less crazy than the news made it was totally normal he had a he had 3,000 college kids they were all crying man

yeah cuz he lost and he was trying to help. That was a democratic establishment, you know, wiping out the guy. The way ABC sent the feed in, you couldn't hear the crowd. The crowd was going, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean. Sorry, how do you yell? And everybody was there. Candy Crowley, is that her name? And all these famous people were on the plane with us.

Yeah. And nobody noticed, and John always says this story, nobody noticed anything weird at all until the next day when we saw what they did with it on the TV. Right. Yeah, it wasn't like the press was on the plane going, oh, my God, look what Dean did. Yeah.

Of course not. They were working because Dean was winning. They had to figure out how can we make him look bad with what he did last night overnight. Yeah. So whatever they see at 6 a.m. Right. He looks like a nut. Yeah.

Why'd they do that to him? Because he was the outsider and he was taking on the establishment. Right. He said, I'm the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. Right. Right. Yeah. Wow.

So, you know. party right right yeah wow so you know so in your so now joan are you able to stop working long enough to appreciate what you've accomplished i mean do you have fun i don't really have too much downtime yeah when i do have downtime i don't want to go anywhere right because i'm always traveling which is kind of a drag. Because I do, you know, I do, there's a lot of places that I'd like to see or things I'd like to do. Something as simple as just driving Highway 1. Oh, yeah, it's great. You've never done it?

No, no. No, but my bus driver just did it to meet us someplace, and he took all these amazing pictures, and I'm like, damn. You know? Everybody gets to do all this stuff. But you never stop? No, I haven't. When I do, it's not for too long,

and I've got animals at home, and so I just want to be with them. Sure, yeah, that makes sense. You know what I'm saying? Which is kind of, you go, oh, man, what a sad life. She does things, though. No, I don't think so. When her mom was alive,

she and her mom cleaned the cages at the animal shelter. And she'll go out, just like people know, because she's so good. She'll go out in the freezing cold, 1 o'clock in the morning, give food to the stray animals. Sure, yeah. My mom is feeding iguanas in South Florida right now. Really? That's great. Some of them I talked about on the air,

and some woman wrote me, she's like, that's part of the problem, you're not supposed to feed them, because there's millions, there's thousands of them. Right, right. But my mother can't not feed animals. Well, what are you going to do? They're there.

Go feed the lizards. Hey, you know, the animals are, yeah, we're in their spot, people. You know what I mean? Exactly. Calm down and learn to live together. I mean, first of all, you don't even want to get me talking about animals. Because you're a vegetarian too, right?

Yeah, basically vegan. Yeah. And did you have a moment with a hamburger? What did it? I mean, I used to be like a bloody meat eater. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was just a slow dawning of what am I doing?

Yeah. You know, I love animals and I'm eating this thing that thinks and feels and all that stuff. And when you get into it and you recognize the more science proves the sentience of animals that we really, you know, say, you know, that's nothing. I mean, you know, paper wasps can recognize each other by their faces. That's a wasp. Yeah. A wasp, a bug. Yeah. Okay.

I'm not to assume that I'm better or know anything, you know, that I'm above that. Right. Because I don't understand their language or what they do. Sure. So, I don't know. I find it very hard to eat an animal. To me, it's like, why don't you just throw your grandmother up there? Yeah.

Or why don't we try some babies? Because baby meat has got to be nice and tender, just like the lambs and stuff. To me, it's like... Same thing. It is. Sorry, but... Do you find that at this point, are you at peace with your past for the most part?

I mean, do you have a relationship with Cherie? I mean, with the other ones, the people, you have a relationship with Cherie. I mean, with the other ones, do you, the people that you played with and that kind of stuff? I don't have any kind of, I have no bad relationships with anybody or bad thoughts about anything. We all did something really special and I think important together.

And I would hope, whether they enjoyed it or not, that they recognize that as well. And I hold no sort of animosity towards anyone. And yeah, Sheree and I are friendly. Last time I spoke to Lita, we were friendly. But that hasn't been for years. Yeah. Jackie?

I haven't spoken to her for years either. What was your reaction to that, her posthumous accusation of, you know, Kim? Well, she made that apparently before he was dead, too. Oh, yeah? You never saw it? No. I mean, look, that was not my experience. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did not have that sort of thing, so I can't really speak to it. Right, right. But, all right, well, that's like, I was honored to talk to you guys. Thank you. It's an honor to talk to you, too. I think it was great, and I'm glad you hung out, Kenny.

Is that your real-ass name, Laguna? Yeah. What kind of name is that? It's, well, I grew up thinking it was Italian, and now I've done the... I did that, yeah. Apparently it's Spanish. Oh, it's Spanish? Didn't you say Portuguese?

Well, that was a theory for a few years in my family, but it turned out not to be. And you can pass as Jewish, too. I'm a Jew and like i assume record business it must have been kenny goldstein but no it's not no italian guy portuguese italians and jews after a certain age they're interchangeable sometimes no i'm half jewish anyway oh you are yes okay there you go but yeah it's it's funny though because um a lot of people say what's your real name yeah so where are you guys going now you staying in la for a couple days though, because a lot of people say, what's your real name?

So where are you guys going now? Are you staying in L.A. for a couple of days? One more day, and then we head up to Washington State. Yeah, to play? Do a couple of gigs up there. Yeah, we're doing gigs with Cheap Trick. Three, that's all. It's a good combo.

Joan's been playing with them since she was 15, 16 years old. No, I was 16, 16, 17. With Cheap Trick. We are not here to 16, 16, 17. With Chief Trick. We are not here to tell the truth, Joan. We are here to create perceptions. Alright, well, great to talk to you. Good luck on the road. Thank you very much, Mark. That was exciting, wasn't it? It was very,

it was actually very fun. Sometimes it's hard for me to manage two people but uh characters and uh icons right there folks as i said earlier the documentary about her life and career is called bad reputation it comes out this friday september 28th go to wtfpod.com to get tour dates buy one of the new t-shirts and sign up for WTF premium access to get all past WTF episodes, not just the most recent 50. And, uh, I don't know, you know, I, I got a little choked up and not, this is not emotionally, but like, you know, confidence wise, after I talked to slash on my guitar and my arms been fucking bothering me and

I hope it goes away, but like I talk to people you know I talk to people I ask people on stage about this tennis elbow tendonitis fucking thing and they just say it never fucking goes away and you know I don't want to stop exercising because I'm just I'm in the groove with that but I don't want to lose the ability to play guitar and god damn it god damn it I'm gonna play I'm gonna play anyways because I know i know you demand it you four people who wait all the way through this shit at the very end to listen to me noodle in a distorted way not even noodle lately it's almost meditative Thank you. Boomer lives! Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode

where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. with your life. Reconfigure them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the

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