WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 954 - Gale Anne Hurd

Episode Date: September 26, 2018

Gale Anne Hurd is one of Hollywood’s most successful producers, with films like The Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss and Armageddon under her belt. She tells Marc how her first job out of college, working as an assistant for Roger Corman, prepared her for a lifetime in the movies and how her collaboration with James Cameron helped her storm the gates of the studios. Gale also talks about shifting from feature films to producing documentaries, why most producers don’t understand how film sets operate, and how she juggles her concurrent products, like the new movie Hell Fest, the new season of The Walking Dead, and the Amazon series Lore. This episode is sponsored by YouTube Music, SimpliSafe and Starbucks Doubleshot. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast. Oh man. So today is it. Today is the day. I don't even acknowledge it that often. I guess I do. But I, okay. I'm 55 years old today. This is my birthday, people. It is my birthday. I'm telling you because I don't necessarily think you should know. I don't necessarily, I don't parade my birthday around.

I'm not ashamed of it in any way, but on some level, I have made it this far, so I should let you know. Today is my birthday, Thursday, September 27th. On some level, I have made it this far, so I should let you know. Today is my birthday. Thursday, September 27th, is my 55th birthday. I was born in 1963 on Kol Nidra Eve. That's how everything has changed. I mean, I don't know what happens with calendars, but I was born the night that Jews around the world were repenting for their sins and fasting into the next day. And I came out crying with a slight eating disorder.

I'm happy to be to be 55. I am happy to be alive. I'm happy that things have worked out for me personally so far. I'm unhappy with the state of the world, but who isn't? What happens on your birthday? I'm sure my mother will text and do her usual leaving a voicemail of her singing happy birthday, which is both sweet and a little off-key, but it's not her job to be a professional singer. We'll see what happens.

A couple of things I want to tell you about. First, before I get away from myself here and start talking about me, I'd like to say that my guest is Gail Ann Hurd, a film producer, a TV producer. producer, a TV producer. She's produced amazing blockbuster movies, The Terminator, The Abyss, Aliens, Armageddon. She's a producer of The Walking Dead. But she's here today. I got an opportunity to talk to her and I'm like, I don't talk to many producers and this should be pretty interesting. So that's happening. That's going to happen for all of us. I will be performing in Los Angeles at a small venue October, I believe, 4th.

That's a Thursday at 8 o'clock and Saturday, October 6th at 10 o'clock p.m. This is at Dynasty Typewriter. It's down in Koreatown, and it's supposedly a great little theater. I miss the Steve Allen Theater, which is no longer with us where I could work out stuff, but I'm going to do a couple of fairly tight evenings

of riffage. I've certainly zeroed in on the hour 15 or so that I'm working on as the new material, but it's always good to work out in a small room so if you want to come to that I don't know if it's sold out I don't think it is that's dynasty typewriter here in Los Angeles you can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for the link for those tickets so that's a bit of business I also October 13th in Phoenix. I'm sorry I'm not doing a second show. New York Comedy Festival, November 10th in New York City at the Beacon is selling well.

There are some tickets left. I would get them if you're interested in going to that in New York. Also, another heads up for New York people. This is not my show, but I think it is a show that would be worth going to in a lot of ways for several different reasons. It sounds tremendous. It's tomorrow, actually. So you got to go get tickets or you got to show up and go. It's tomorrow, September 28th.

It's at the Knockdown Center in Queens. It's called Flip These Houses. It's a concert celebrating songs of protest and political consciousness but but this is sort of like astounding these are great old folk songs and also modern songs you know i have a i have a song list i don't need to go through that with you i should just be able to tell you the artists that are going to be doing woody guthrie bob dylan you know marvin gay even there's i there's just a lot of different songs that are being covered by Craig Finn, Britt Daniel, Nicole Atkins, Ted Leo, Laura Cantrell are a few of the performers. As I said before, they're going to be doing songs by Bob Dylan, Patti Smith, David Bowie, Nina Simone, dozens more.

The goal is to support Get Out the Vote campaigns with proceeds going to Power the Polls, the Hometown Project, Rise and Resist, and the Center for Popular Democracy. Go to FlipTheseHouses.org for tickets. Again, this is at the Knockdown Center in Queens tomorrow night, Friday, September 28th. It should be a pretty amazing show. I think a lot of people may not even be conscious of some of the amazing songs that happened way back in the day. Sounds a nice day nice evening go see it i think i told you some some of you guys i've been i've been going to doctors a bit not because i'm losing my mind just because

uh you know you go get a checkup i've had this had this thing on my head and uh and i think i i reflected on some oddball late stage george carlin bit where he talks about just noticing a bump on your head well it happened to me it happened and i was playing with it and i was hitting it with my comb and of course i was nervous about it when a a bump arises, you want to get it dealt with. Don't let your bump sit. Okay, folks, if I can say anything today, it's don't let the bump sit and fester. Don't wait till the bump gets bigger.

If a bump is there and a bump wasn't there before and you know it not to be a pimple, go get it checked. So I went to my skin doctor, because I didn't know, is this a cancer bump, or is it just one of the general old man bumps? Because the old man bumps and spots start to happen after a certain age. I know this is a very sexy conversation I'm having with you people. I know it's something you want to hear.

Old man bumps and spots do start to surface. So she took one look at it, said it was an old man bump. It has a clinical name, but that's what I'll call it. And then she said, do you want me to burn it off? Do you want me to knock it out? Do you want me to freeze that baby? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay. And then she walked out.

I'm like, yo, wait. You know what? Let's freeze it off. So now I'm waiting for my old man bump to come to uh to cut to come off exciting stuff right happy birthday to me i'm trying to get to know my new neighborhood but i'm walking around it's a nice neighborhood you know it's not insanely fancy but it's a nice neighborhood but uh here's an interesting thing you can do when you walk around your neighborhood. Look at telephone polls. Look at what's posted on telephone polls. And, you know, if it's just a random poem or perhaps rambling of a schizophrenic mind that's just there on the poll,

it makes you wonder, hey, who are my neighbors? Is this something they wrote? Is it something that, you know, I just saw this. It was actually someone came over to the house and they parked across the street in the wrong place. And they were visiting my house, a future guest. All right. It was on a Ferris. And she goes, I thought you lived in this house because of this thing that was on the posted on the telephone pole. It's just here.

I'll read it to you an unsatiated full tilt feeding frenzy has thus begun on cereal box tops on still barely writhing earthen complexion these insects as children pick over the red fire soft and gelatinous corpse of an octopus leaving its newly dug hole exposed for their own entertainment in tattered splintered array this playground of a shipwreck the only failure within miles to serve due purpose and instead danced upon till inches and inches slowly sink deeper does quicksand really exist this was the village it took to pick over mankind's foibles and ultimate lack of progression for in youth unless it be mother elderism doesn't stand a chance and then it just says suitor uh i guess is the author but uh this was on a on a telephone

pole stapled in in my nice relatively suburban neighborhood and for some reason that made Anna Faris thought that I was the author and she must be at my house. So that's made my neighborhood a little mysterious to me. I will do more research. That I will tell you. I hope it's not wrong of me to read the poetry posted on telephone poles.

I didn't quite understand it. Not sure why I read it. It all just happened. So what else do I want to tell you? Health things. I smashed my finger this morning. Yeah, smashed it. I was working out.

I've been compulsively working out. I have to admit that I've been locked into a fairly regimented eating situation. I've trimmed down a bit, and I've been just exercising like a fucking lunatic and somehow or another i was dropping some barbells as i was laying on a bench press and i guess there were some other barbells there where i dropped it it bounced up smashed my index finger between one barbell and another by complete fucking ridiculous coincidence how do these things time out right but there's that moment you know that moment when you hurt yourself and you know if you're lucky it's not major but you know even if it is major it's like that time right before you get into a car accident where you have about a second to know that's a little

different but that moment right after something really hurts you there's a vibration that emanates from the place it went down just this sort of like and your whole you have sort of a a full body tinnitus experience it's just this kind of like expansion of a of a pain vibration and then all of a sudden it converges as i look down on my hand i'm'm like, holy fuck. And it's got that weird white color before blood starts happening. And I realized that that nail doesn't look like it's on anymore. Sorry.

I'm sorry. Are you eating? Yeah, it didn't come off, but it doesn't look good. But I guess fortunately I didn't break my finger. But I swear to God, that weird adrenaline and cortisol rush or whatever happens again. I'm fortunate that it wasn't a major injury, but man, I got jacked. I got jacked. We put gauze on it.

And now I guess I just wait. It's just a waiting game. I'm going to wait till my nail turns black and whatever happens after that. I fucked up my picking hand. So I can actually hear the hearts breaking that there is not going to be any noodling after the show today. I can hear it. Yeah. So happy birthday to me.

I get to watch my fingernail turn black and maybe fall off. That's a gift, right? All right. So now I'm happy to share with you a conversation I had with Gail Ann Hurd. She's a big time movie producer. She produced, God, a lot. I've mentioned it already in the show, Terminator, Aliens, The Abyss, The Walking Dead, but she's got a new film coming out called Hellfest, which opens in theaters tomorrow, September 28th. And as I said, she's also the producer of The Walking Dead, which returns October 7th. And she's a producer of the Amazon series Lore, based on the podcast.

Season 2 premieres October 19th. This is me and Gail Ann Hurd. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.

An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27thth exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

I've talked to other people who started with Roger Corman. I talked to Ron Howard. And I've talked to Joe Dante. And I've talked to Roger Corman. I talked to Ron Howard and I've talked to Joe Dante and I've talked to Roger Corman. And you started there. I did. That was my first job out of college. Where'd you go to college? Stanford. Really? That was Roger's alma mater. It was. Yes. He has a degree in chemical engineering. That's right. Yes. Did you grow up in Los Angeles? I was born in LA, fourth generation, Los Angelina. Wow, yeah.

But my parents moved to Palm Springs, so I actually graduated from Palm Springs High School. Palm Springs? Yes. I can't imagine growing up there. Was it nice? Nor could I. Yeah. And I did, so. But what was that community like?

It just retired people and show business? I can't imagine. That's what people don't understand is that the economy that is required to support golf courses and hotels and all of that is a very blue collar community. Sure. Right. And it's very multi-ethnic. Yeah. So it's not what people think.

I mean, the wealthy families didn't stay there year round and have their kids go to Palm Springs High School. Right. So there was definitely this class divide. Yeah. Yeah. And there was like the resort people and then there was the working people. Yeah. They're the townies.

Right. And then the out of townies. Right. Right. So there's almost like a summer camp kind of vibe. Like people would come every year and there'd be like weird relationships between, I'm just talking about kids. You know, we didn't meet the people who were from out of town.

No. No. Because they had a totally different social circle than we did. Yeah. So we were the locals. We hung out together and we tried to leave town for spring break or the other, you know, big weekends or weeks that people would come and invade. And ruin the town?

Yeah, we looked at it that way. And what business was your folks in? My dad had retired. And he had been in real estate. Yeah. Here in LA? Yes. Oh, yeah.

And then my mother had been his secretary. Oh, old school. Very old school. But you went to Stanford. So what was your big plan? I wanted to be a marine biologist. Oh. Well, you made the abyss.

I did. I did. So that was my one contribution to marine sciences. Did you study it? I mean, did you go full on? I wasn't that smart. No, the sciences at Stanford, I mean, I did really well in the humanities. Right, yeah. But I was definitely not the caliber to succeed in math and science. So you

didn't do any of the sciences? Oh, I took calculus, and I took a couple of other courses. And I took intro to computing. Oh, yeah. And that was like a new thing then. That was when they had punch cards. Right. And we learned Algal W programming language.

Uh-huh. And the IBM 360. The giant? programming language uh-huh uh and the ibm 360 the giant computer that literally was less than um the computing power of your phone that's crazy uh took up an entire building and you got and you learned that and how to work one of those or how to program it so did that come in handy no but it acquainted you with the machinery. It made me fear technology. I mean, when I started Stanford, we were still using slide rules. Really?

Yes, because I started in 1973. Oh. And the Texas Instruments calculator was introduced, and they know 400 and some odd dollars i remember them yes they had pie on it yes yeah square roots the whole thing and they were like the the nerds that had them it was like the most amazing thing it was and and unfortunately that's when you started to see the difference between the haves and the have-nots because the people they were allowed you were allowed to use them in class so So the people who could afford a $300 to $400 outlay of cash for that were so much more advantaged than the people still on slide rules.

Oh, and they just let that be? Yeah. Wow, it sort of built in that sort of class separation that they're going to succeed and you're going to have to work harder to do it. Yep. So when you get out, though, 73, the world's pretty crazy. It's pretty exciting, right? Well, I graduated in 77.

Yeah. And the world was pretty crazy. I had degrees in economics and communications. That's what you came out with? Yes. Yeah. And what made you decide to do the movie thing? When I was in my junior year, I happened to attend a foreign study program in England because that was the only foreign language I spoke.

Yeah. And you wanted to get out? Big English. I wanted to see what the world was like outside the United States. Yeah. And they happened to have an intensive program in British film and broadcasting as well as economics. And that was my first introduction to taking film and TV classes. And you just did it because you were interested? Well, I did it because I was interested. And also, there weren't that many other classes offered.

Yeah, yeah. And I fell in love with it. So who was there? what was uh what was the the thing that kind of blew your mind about it well to know that i was taking a class where we saw the top documentaries and top feature films and met with the people who created them yeah uh was really mind-blowing to me do Do you remember any of the directors? One of the Asquiths. We met Sir Michael Balkan, who was the Ealing from the Ealing comedies.

Yeah. And we met a number of smaller directors, and it was co-taught by the head of the British Film Institute. Oh, yeah. And documentary was taught by Basil Wright, who was one of the founders at the National Film Board of Canada. Oh, yeah. Along with John Grierson. So it was documentaries that really moved you initially. Both.

Yeah. It was both. And you did a documentary a few years ago, right? I've done multiple. Yeah? I had one that came out this year. Was that the Man Killer one? Man Killer, about the first woman elected principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, Wilma Man Killer.

Now, how does a story like that come to you? Well, that was my third. Yeah. What was the first one? The first one was about the true story of the Navajo who served as co-talkers during World War II. Oh, I saw that one. Yeah.

That was good. And then the second one. They based a feature on that too, didn't they? Well, that was not the true story. Right. Really? That happens in movies, Gail? Yeah, I know.

I know. That's why I'm saying I feel like a fraud because, you know, certainly we're not going to land on an asteroid and blow it up like in Armageddon. I thought I had a lot of hope for that happening. I thought everything was taken care of. No? No. But they do have a near-Earth objects division.

Oh, good. That's trying to protect us by mapping these risks to our future. No real method to destroying them, but at least we can know it's coming. Exactly. Oh, good. Well, that's kind of cold comfort, but okay. So the Navajo Code Crackers was the first doc. Right.

And they've all been for PBS. And I partnered with Native American women. Valerie Redhorse has directed all of them. And she's of Cherokee descent. Yeah. Red Horse has directed all of them. Uh-huh. And she's of Cherokee descent.

Yeah. So it was perfect telling Wilma Mankiller's story being a Cherokee woman. She was the first president of the Cherokee Nation? The first principal chief. Principal chief. The first woman.

Yeah. And did they, like, when something like that, as a producer, does she come to you? Did she, or is this something you were interested in? First of all,

she passed away in 2010. Oh. And we were actually approached by PBS, by Vision Maker Media, which is the native voices arm of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. And has something like that been something you were interested in before or was it a whole new thing? Seems sort of specific. It's good. a whole new thing um seems sort of specific you know i i read a fictional script yeah that was the impetus for me to get involved in native stories and i've worked with a lot of indigenous filmmakers and it it seemed to me that whatever i could do to help get these stories told

and to have a wider viewing public, which it was important for me to do so because heaven knows there's no money in it. Right. Right. So, you know, these are the most marginalized people and this was their, this was their land. That's right. Yeah.

And I think we need to remind ourselves about that. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And I think we need to remind ourselves about that. Yeah. It's it's it's interesting because as a producer, you do have the the the freedom to to do any any project really that you want. And, you know, and after the arc of like, you know, science fiction films and horror films and stuff that, you know, that you start to use your power like that's great. Must feel good to do that. I just you to me these are important stories yeah and i really want to do things that keep me interested was that always the case yes yeah yeah i i kept a couple of times people talk me into producing things that i just didn't understand like what uh there was a movie called downtown uh-huh uh that i did. And I just didn't understand it. It was sort of a buddy cop comedy.

That's really not, I couldn't add anything to it. I couldn't make it better. Right, right. And so then what am I doing? Right. I'm not the kind of producer who just puts my name on something. It was too finite.

You know, it wasn't of the imagination enough, maybe. But, you know, I got to work with Richard Benjamin, who directed it, who was fantastic. And Forrest Whitaker was one of the stars. Oh, yeah. So, you know, what I do like to do is mix things up, you know, in terms of working with people in front of and behind the camera. Yeah. Who might not have leading role opportunities. I mean, Forrest was not someone at the time

who was being cast in leading roles. Right, right. So let's go back to Corman. So you leave Stanford and you do the thing in England. Well, I was still at Stanford during that time. The last year? It was my junior year.

Okay. So you come back to Stanford and you're like, I want to be in movies. I want to make movies. No, I thought that was fun. Yeah. I have no idea how to pursue a career in it. Uh-huh.

So my path was very different. One of my professors was a gentleman who teaches to this day now at San Diego State. Yeah. I mean, at San Francisco State, Stephen Kovacs. And he'd been hired by Roger Corman to be head of physical production. And he recommended Roger to me. So I got a letter out of the blue.

You told him you were interested though. Well, he knew that I was interested. Right, because you were... And even though I failed miserably in science and a little less so in math, I was excellent in the humanities. And I graduated in the top of my class in the humanities. And Roger was looking for one of the smart people from the communications department. For any specific reason?

As an assistant. Okay. He always wanted he always wanted people that you know he he wanted people who were smart yeah i mean look for francis ford coppola martin scorsese right cameron well they would they were they assistants uh did they come in as filmmakers but but roger always wanted people who would would end up having huge careers. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So you took the gig? I did. I took the gig as his assistant, thinking that that was going to be my job for life. Did you like it that much? Well, no. I mean, how many role models did we have as women back in the 70s as producers? And I was really lucky that early on, one of my mentors, in addition to Roger Corman and Barbara Boyle, who worked for him, was Deborah Hill, the late Deborah Hill.

There's a new Halloween coming out. So it's so important to me to keep her name alive because she was such an inspiration to me she co-wrote produced halloween um and all of those great john carpenter films and was she with corman as well no she wasn't but she came and um she had uh she was filming yeah uh some of escape from New York. With Kurt Russell. Yes. And she hired Jim Cameron to work in the film and visual effects. And he was a corpsman at the time. He was a corpsman, yeah.

And that was his specialty, right? He was art department and visual effects. When you got there. No. When I first met him, he was building spaceship props for Battle Beyond the Stars, which was Roger's homage to the Seven Samurai. Right. So he was, but he was at the Cameron operation when you got there.

Right. Right. And he was just like a model nerd. He was building spaceship props. And then Roger, we needed an art director. And since he had designed all of the spaceships and he could draw, I said, let's give him a shot. So we went from one of the model makers to art director overnight. When you were there?

Yes. And I was the assistant production manager on Battle Beyond the Stars. Okay. So that was after you brought, how long after you became the assistant did that happen? Well, I then was head of marketing for New World Pictures. You just kind of moved around? Yes. Wherever there was a need, you went. Regardless of how skilled you were in that position. And then I went from that to being a PA. So I went from head of a department to

production assistant. So you started as an assistant, then you're head of marketing. So what were you taking in at that time that, you know, intellectually or for your own business model, when did his way of doing business start to impact the way you saw how to do what you do? Well, I think that if you look at what Roger was doing back then, in addition to the exploitation films that he was making, he was distributing Truffaut films and Kurosawa films and ingmar bergman films right so it it was very much like if you want to look at my career i make incredibly commercial things and then i make documentaries yeah so that was a great example for me and we so as head of marketing you you know you marketed everything from rock and roll high school which was his right to

francois truffaut's The Green Room. Right, because he was like the first distributor, right? Well, Janice Films. Janice Films, I think, predated him, but it was really Janice and New World at the time. So his whole, because I talked to him, it's interesting that he continued to make the type of movies that he makes,

but he always had such amazing respect for these movies that were much loftier and much more artistically provocative. Do you think that he didn't see himself as being able to produce those kind of movies? I think the concern really was if you didn't get it 100% right, it was going to be a failure because that audience is much pickier. Right. And an exploitation audience will at least show up for the first weekend.

And if you make the movie for little enough money. Right. And in addition to that, he didn't give anyone final cut. Yeah. You're not going to say to an Ingmar Bergman or a Francois Truffaut, you know.

Right. Roger was, never wanted to be Harvey Weinstein. Right. Well, that's good. Yeah. In every possible way.

Right. But like, he also, like, even though the directors that started with him went on to do incredible sort of auteur type of movies, when they were with him, they made Roger Corman movies.

But Roger was very upfront about that. Yeah. In fact, when Jim and I wanted to make The Terminator, he said, the budget's going to be too large. You've learned everything you can possibly learn from me. It's time for you guys to go out on your own. learn from me. It's time for you guys to go out on your own. I mean, how many people would say, well, most people would say, I'll executive produce. I really won't contribute anything, but I'll take my cut. Instead, he said, you've learned all that you can learn here. Go out and fly on your own wings. Yeah. And he did that a lot. everybody yeah he gave them the the nuts and bolts education

of production or directing or whatever the hell they needed to do and he said go yep go i'll get a new crew of people to make this stuff exactly and he was okay with it and you know what we're still in touch and i see him and julie yeah once or twice a year and uh you know and and i think that i think he his name really should be a household name along with everyone else because I can't imagine the American film industry without the people whose careers he started. No doubt, and I think he is a household name to people who know film. Yes.

Right? Yes. So when you go to be a PA, is that where you started to really understand the set and how that all worked? What was the process? Well, I had to do everything. Yeah. So I made coffee.

Yeah. I, as I recall, the second AD was somewhat dyslexic. So I ended up doing the call sheets because you don't want to call sheet with, you know, pickup time at 630 in the morning and, you know, you don't want it to say 3.30, 360. Yeah. Whatever that means. Yeah.

Yeah. And you've never done any of this before? None of it. Yeah. None of it. And then I worked with Rob Bottin putting methylcellulose, ultra slime on the humanoids and humanoids from the deep. And I work with props department and I work with the costumes department.

I drove motorhomes. I emptied the chemical toilets in motorhomes. Wow. I did the runs from Mendocino down to the Oakland airport to pick up the cast to bring them set. Yeah. And I was working, I mean, I was essentially working, you know, 100 plus hours a week. But you were also essential to the whole operation. It would seem like when you're that person, it's all kind of moving through you.

Well, I don't know that I was essential. Yeah. But every Roger Corman film is essentially understaffed. Yeah. So everyone is essential. Right. But by doing all that, you learned all of it. Yes.

And then on other films, I worked as a grip and, you know, drove the grip truck. Yeah. And I really don't have as much respect for producers

who don't know how sets work. Yeah. Are there a lot of them? There must be. I'd say most of them. Yeah, because they're just money people?

You know, or they've, or just money people you know or they've or they've you know done a lot of development notes and they right come to set power and think yeah you know and just tell people hurry up how come yeah we're not shooting fast you're not understanding how difficult it is to you know, to do it the right way. Right. And to be safe and, you know, and value everyone who's pitching in on a project.

And who was like at your time, when you were there at Corman's, who were the directors that were around? Who was working at the time? Oh, Alan Arkish did Rock and Roll High School. Right. And there was a woman who actually directed humanoids from the deep barbara peters uh-huh and then was dante there dante i knew joe from cutting trailers because as head of marketing right i need trail well that

was he was the trailer guy yeah yeah yeah so i i got to know all you know the the previous generation Yeah. Yeah. So I got to know the previous generation primarily through the marketing side. Uh-huh. Peter Bogdanovich did St. Jack while I was there. And then Jim was directing second unit on a number of films. That's where he started directing?

He doing second unit stuff? Yes. So when did you guys start knowing you wanted to work together, you and Cameron? When I was the assistant production manager on Battle Beyond the Stars, and I helped him get promoted from model builder to art director. And is that where you guys started to be with each other?

No. You just started working? No. We didn't start dating until post-production on Terminator. Oh, really? Yeah. So how did that relationship take? Did you guys just decide you wanted to write together or how did it work? Well, I was helping out because we were so far behind in our department. So I would help spray paint sets and a lot more than you would typically do if you were

a union Dga upm but roger wasn't right so i literally did whatever needed to be done and so you know spray spray painting a set you know painting a set takes a long time so we'd be we'd be chatting about ideas and i mean back then he already had the ideas for The Abyss. He already had ideas for, you know, films that are being made now that he's producing. Uh-huh. He'd had them since, you know, he'd been developing ideas since he was 13 or 14. And he's still executing them now. Yes.

That's a lot of ideas. Well, indeed. And you guys are still friends? Yeah. Do you work together still? No, we don't work together. No? I mean, he's making avatars two through four or five. Is it going to be as big a production?

I think, if not bigger. Oh, my God. I think, if not bigger. Oh, my God. That was such a, like, just the promotion for that alone was insane. Well, you know what? And we did enter the world of Pandora, and he brought it alive. Yeah.

Did you love it? I did. I did. Although I have to say, 3D, watching 3D makes me nauseous. It's a little much, huh? So I'm one of those people that I tend to prefer 2D. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think 3D is ever going to take over or anything?

You know what? I am, as we established, not the greatest tech and science person. Yeah. So I'm not going to predict. So when you guys, so ultimately, initially, Terminator was going to predict so when you guys so ultimate initially terminator was going to be done at new world no never never but you told corman about it yes and he said that's too big for me so we took it to barbara boyle who had been the chief operating officer at new world yeah who is now working at or Pictures for Mike Medavoy.

And you had the script? Yes. And that's what sold it to them? Yes. And then you guys were like, we're going to produce it. Well, they said that they would put some money in for the foreign and that we needed to come up with the rest of the money. How'd you do that?

I bought a desk. Yes. And that we needed to come up with the rest of the money. How'd you do that? I bought a desk. Yes. Yes. So when you're a producer and you're trying to get your first project going, you do whatever it takes. Right. There was someone I knew had a multiple picture deal with Orion. Yeah. And they didn't have their next two projects.

Yeah. Accompanied by the name of Hemdale. The head of it, John Daly, wouldn't take my phone calls. So I found out that the head of development was a guy named Barry Plumlee and he wouldn't take my phone calls. But then I found out through the grapevine that he was selling a desk.

So I got him to return my phone call by saying that I was interested in buying his desk. And I'm also one of those people who, even though I didn't need a desk, I felt so guilty that I had sort of faked my way in that I bought the desk. Yeah. But Barry read what was at the time a treatment, a 40-some-odd-page treatment. You dropped it off the day you picked up the desk yes uh-huh and uh and surprisingly as i said you know he read it yeah and he called the next day saying he wanted to have a meeting and that is literally how terminator got off the

launching pad that's it so when you presented him with the treatment did he realize like you don't want the desk do you no he didn't because i bought it realize, like, you don't want the desk, do you? No, he didn't, because I bought it. And at that point, he didn't care. And my check cleared. Well, there you go. So you were on a business level. It was a quid pro quo. Yeah, good.

Because I don't completely understand production. So when you do something like Terminator, as you do everything you work on, what are the initial concerns? What do you have to make happen? Well, when you're making a film with not enough money and not enough time, and it's an independent film, the first thing you have to do is convince the completion bond company, which at the time was Film Finances, that you can actually do what you say because they're betting on you. It's like a construction bond. So think of it that way, that the building Yeah. a career because Jim and I went in and met with him and he was incredibly savvy. And he asked us all of the difficult questions like, how are you going to, how are you going to create the Terminator? How are, you know, how are you going to have the final chase in the factory where there's

only a portion of the Terminator? You know, how are you going to do all of that? And we had the answers and we even had the locations that we had identified you worked out all the the effects we had and and obviously jim with his expertise in visual effects yeah uh and you know we had the stop motion armature figured out um at the time we were turned on to the late Stan Winston through Dick Smith, the Academy Award winning makeup artist.

Because we were told that Orion didn't want the film unless Dick Smith did the effects. And he said, I'm the wrong person. I do character effects, makeup. And you need someone who can do armatures and animatronics as well.

And he's the one who's turned us on to Stan and said that he would back Stan and I think even give his name as someone that if Stan didn't deliver, he would step in. Even though he said Stan will deliver. Right. But he vouched for him. Yes. And those are the first concerns. Yes. And so Lindsley completely backed us.

And in fact, to the point that when we first screened the film and everyone said, oh my God, this is a disaster and it's an embarrassment. Lindsley looked at it and said, this is going to be a classic. And I believe in you and Jim 100%. So when John Daly tried to take over the film from us. At Orion or where? He was at Hemdale. Yeah, okay. He tried to take the film away from Jim and me.

And recut it and do whatever. Yeah. And that Lindsley said, because we were projecting to go into the contingency, so there's a 10% contingency, that he would take the film away from Hemdale and back Jim andency. Yeah. So there's a 10% contingency that he would take the film away from Hemdale and back Jim and me.

Wow. So, I mean, these are the kinds of alliances. That's the kind of support that people who don't know a lot about the film industry. These are such important people. Without Linsley Parson Jr.' jr support the terminator might not have

turned out the way that it did and you think these people exist today as well oh there's no question that they do and they're really unsung heroes that champion movies on that level yes yes and what was why did people why did screening go badly well because the the animatronics that weren't done um we we still had um we still had stop motion animation that also um was done by a guy named peter kleinow he was the the stop motion animator who played slide guitar for the flying burrito brothers in a previous incarnation. Great band. Yeah.

And every now and again, we'd go watch them play at the Palomino or something. Really? Anyway, these were great days. But anyway, they weren't done. So we had lots of slugs in there. Right. And so the first screening was really a disaster. But you plowed through and you made a mega hit. We did.

And because of Lindsley Parsons supporting us, and Mike Medavoy and Barbara Boyle, we ended up becoming the number one film of the fall of 1984. And made Time Magazine's 10

best list. Well, it's a great movie. Yeah, but we were told before we started, after that first screening by the head of marketing for Orion, that it was a total embarrassment, a down-and-dirty exploitation film that would be out of theaters after the first weekend because of the poor word of mouth. What did they know?

Well, I'm just glad they were wrong. Yeah. None of us know anything, as William Goldman says. Yeah, that's true. Well, what was going on in films at that time? I mean, was it a unique film for that landscape? Well, I mean, at the time, Orion was making Amadeus, which went on to win the Academy Awards. Right.

And they were clearly doing something right. But, you know, Gemini called the nightclub in which the first, the Terminator and Sarah Connor first meet and he targets her with the red laser. Right. Dot. Yeah. And Kyle Reese saves her. We called the nightclub Tech Noir because

to us there was a sub-genre that was developing of films about the possible dark side of technology that we need to be thinking about what are the ethics involved in a lot of the things that we're dealing with today with the rise of AI

and the rise of robots but that's something we were thinking about back in the 80s. And we saw films like, you know, 2001 was an inspiration and Blue Thunder. Right. And Robo, RoboCop. I think I can't remember if it was before or after. And Blade Runner. Blade Runner. Yeah. And RoboCop almost is a satire, almost. It has a satirical element to it. But it makes you really think about these things. Yeah. It's getting away from us.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was there. It was brewing, this genre. It was. Yeah, of sort of... And that's why about a year and a half ago or two years ago when the late Stephen Hawking basically said, we need to be afraid about robots and AI.

I'm thinking if you had just seen The Terminator in 1984, you could have gotten out way ahead of this issue. It is like I was just talking about it to somebody recently, how much we surrender to just on an informational basis. I mean, if they can really, and I don't understand much, but if they can really teach the mass of the machinery in place to think, they've got everything on us.

Yes. You know, they can just erase our lives. So at first the issue becomes, who are the gatekeepers? And the next becomes when, you know, when there are sentient computers, if there aren't already now, AI. Sure, algorithms that pick demographics, they are sentient. Yeah. Computers, if there aren't already now. Right. AI.

Sure, algorithms that pick demographics, they are sentient. And as I recall, wasn't there something in social media where they created sort of an AI bot that within hours became a, you know, started spouting racist rhetoric? Right. Based on what they were taking from yes right of course right that's the monster so that's who's going to be in charge the the robot gatekeeper is going to be a horrible racist well let's hope not yeah we've already got a president that's one you know we think i think i think just like doctors yeah take the you know hippocratic oath

yeah first do no harm. I think that everyone who's a developer of software, a developer of biotech, needs to first and foremost think, first do no harm, and what are the, you know, unintended consequences of their creation?

Right. Well, you know, it seems to me that a lot of scientists are sort of like, well, that's not, you know, we're just here doing the research, you know, and wherever it goes after that, that's not necessarily our like, well, that's not, you know, we're just here doing the research, you know, and wherever it goes after that, it's not necessarily our

responsibility. Well, look at what, you know, the nuclear bomb, look at the scientists then who regret. Oh yeah. Who regretted what they created. And they knew exactly what they were doing and why they were doing it. Yes. Yeah. But so this area of movie making, because when I talked to you about it, it seems like Corman did not, you know, though he made movies that dealt with stuff like this, science fiction movies and certainly movies that were, I think, creatively ahead of their time. He didn't have a unified vision, right? He would make almost any type of movie. Well, no. I mean, he did actually have a vision. And the interesting thing, if you go back and look at one of his films, which he directed

starring William Shatner, it was called The Intruder. And it was about racism in the South. And it was actually a message movie. Right. So, I think that Roger always thought about things like that. And I think that there is subtext, if you look for it, in a lot of his films. Right. I guess I was thinking genre. But no, he always had a good heart and a progressive heart about the message.

And the fact that he hired women and that women directed in the 70s for him and were editors. And, you know, he really did not look at women as well they should be stuck as secretaries for the rest of their lives i mean that's what i was expecting i was expecting to go into a culture in which you know i would go from secretary and one day i would be an executive assistant yeah that was the the level of my ambition at the time and And it was because I went to work for Roger Corman and Barbara Boyle and the other people who were running the company that I became a lot more enlightened than I was at the time. Well, that's what's supposed to happen when you're allowed to. I know, but we haven't really even gotten to that level now in the industry. Yeah.

And that was the 70s. It's crazy. And and i mean a lot of that's coming to head now it is but i but i you know i think there are there's a lot of fear out there because um uh it has been an industry in which the people who've held on to power for so long right obviously don't want to give it up easily. That's for sure. And I guess that's the advantage of having somebody who is intelligent and progressive minded and not an asshole like Roger, who really ran a sort of like, he ran his own show business. He did.

I mean, at the time, I remember that the letter had saidica's largest independent production and distribution company and that's what he had yeah all of us who work there even though we were exploited i mean the most i ever made working for him up until i produced a film for him was 180 a week even when i was running marketing right um you weren't going to get rich there right but if you had the talent you your career was going to get launched. Right. You could you were supported there. Yes. Right. And it seems like, you know, when I look at the some of the movies that you were doing early on, I mean, they all have not unlike Rogers, really, that their hearts in the right place. Even Alienation is really about racism, isn't it? Yes.

Yeah. And Aliens is about the sort of that's about the cancer isn't it? Yes. Yeah, and aliens is about the sort of, that's about the cancerous capitalism to a degree. Yes, yeah. Right? And the abyss is about, you shouldn't go that deep. And I think it's about, you know, we've got to think about this arms race that we're in

and what are the possible consequences. And let's not always be fearful of the other. Let's not be fearful of, we call them NTIs, you know, non-terrestrial intelligence. Let's not just assume that they're out to get us. Right. Yeah, that's always the thing. They're going to be bad. I mean, I think what's sadder now is that they may just be like, well, let's not even bother with them.

Yeah. You know what I mean? They're a lost cause. We're on the road to destruction. Right. Yes. And I don't know if we're turning back, if that's turning back. But you also deal with that in your movies.

Now, when you think about when something's presented to you, I mean, a few of these, Aliens these aliens was already the first aliens how did you come to get the second one so what happened was um jim and i were supposed to make terminator 1983 yeah but dino de laurentis um preempted arnold to do conan the destroyer which was the sequel to Conan the Barbarian. Yeah. So we had to wait a year. Right. So, you know, Jim needed to put food on the table. Yeah.

And so he was doing ad campaigns, you know, for low-budget films. But he was a writer, so he had a sample with the Terminator. And he went in to meet with Walter and the team. Yeah. And they pitched him a Spartacus in space idea. And he said, well, is there anything else?

Yeah. And they said, well, we're thinking of doing a sequel to Alien, which sounds very common now, but it was very unusual then to do sequels. Yeah. And so Jim came back with a pitch. They liked that pitch. which sounds very common now but it was very unusual then to do sequels yeah and so jim came back with a pitch they liked that pitch and he also was hired for another sequel which um which was uh which was rambo first blood part two so he wrote both scripts in this hiatus between the time that we had the financing for the Terminator and the time we started shooting.

Wow. And this is, at that point, you had established your production company? Yes. And were you also taking on other projects other than your own? No. No. No. Just you guys.

I mean, it was, I had my own company. Jim wasn't a part of that. Yeah. And I had an assistant. That was my production company. Jim wasn't a part of that. Yeah. And I had an assistant. That was the, that was, that was my production. That was the whole thing?

Yes. Yeah. And when does that change? When does it become a larger operation? Which movie does it? Um, after Aliens. Yeah.

Um, 20th Century Fox offered me an overall production deal. And that's when. Because you were making money. I was making money. Yes. A lot of money. Yeah. And that's when everything changed? Yep. So when a deal happens as a production entity, what does that mean? What's that contract like? What does it mean that they do? What does 20th do? They're going to release whatever you make? No. No. It means that you're obligated to... It

depends whether it's first look. I had a first look deal. Yeah. So I was obligated to show them everything I was interested in developing. They had the first crack at it. Yeah. It didn't guarantee that it got made. Right. I mean, that's a different, that's a put picture deal.

Sure. And I never had that. But it also sets forth what your compensation is going to be and it gives you an overhead and the overhead will cover staffing. Right. So that I can hire a couple more people yeah and i could develop more than just one project at a time right so which movies did you make a 20th uh made aliens alien nation um in the abyss and then what happens where do you go and then uh and then after that uh the lateeele reached out to me, and I had a deal at Columbia. And then after that, Sherry Lansing.

My next deal was at Paramount. Yeah, when she was head of Paramount. Right. And then I had a deal at Universal also. So you've always had a lot of deals, you know, moving around a bit. Yes. Yeah. And you and Jim marry and lot of deals, you know, moving around a bit. Yes. Yeah. And you and Jim marry and divorce in this time?

And continue to work together. Was that ever awful? Well, you know, I mean, the thing is that we worked together before we started dating. Yeah, exactly. So we'd already established what that relationship was. Right. And I think if it had been different, it wouldn't have worked as well. Right.

Do you have kids? Not with him. Oh, okay. So after that relationship stops and then you do... How many Terminators did you do? Three. Three? Three Terminators? Did you write on all of them? No. You didn't? No. What is your creative input as a producer after a certain point? You don't get to say, well, can we do this another way? Oh, of course. I mean, I think that's the value of a producer is always trying to be able to see the forest, not just the trees.

Yeah. And so I've always been very involved especially in post-production yeah um so development notes helping to solve problems on set yeah because you know but at that point i had multiple projects going on right so i was going from from you know one set to another and if once once film stopped shooting in los angeles it made it much harder because you can't be in it's you can go to two sets if they're shooting in the same yeah city you can't be on the same day but yeah you can't do that if and that and that started happening more like a lot of movies were shooting away

from town yeah now i know that you had a relationship with De Palma as well. Was there a shift in your mind from doing the type of movies that you and Cameron did to his more horror, psychological thrillers? What attracted you to him? Brian's one of the smartest, funniest, most engaging people I've ever met. Wild filmmaker, too. He is. And he's incredibly smart.

Yeah. And he really should teach film. Yeah. If you saw the documentary about him, you'll understand. I've got to watch that. It's a great documentary. You'll understand just how much of an expert, not just on Hitchcock. Right.

But, you know, I mean, being with him was like a graduate course in film. Yeah. Yeah. There's a couple guys like that. Scorsese is like that, too. Oh, absolutely. And Bogdanovich a bit. Quentin Tarantino.

Yeah. Just the film heads. Yeah. Yeah. So youdanovich a bit. Quentin Tarantino. Yeah, just those film heads. Yeah. Yeah. So you earned a lot about movies. And we worked together. We made a film called Raising Cain together. With John Lithgow, right?

With John Lithgow. That was a trippy movie. Like he was, what was he, a split personality? Yeah, exactly. How'd that do? It did well. Yeah. I mean, we made it.

It came in a million dollars under budget. It only cost, I think the budget made it. We made it. It came in a million dollars under budget. It only cost, I think the budget was 12. We made it for 10 something. Yeah. You know, and so everyone was surprised it came out. It did well. Brian's very much a New York person. Right.

And he moved out here. Never really loved it out here. Right. Moved back to New York and we split up. Oh, so it was a long distance thing. Yeah. He didn't live out here early on back to new york and oh that was it was it oh yeah oh it's always a long distance thing yeah he didn't live out here early on too or no he was always new york always wow yeah i miss his movies i don't know like i can't remember the last movie he made really well he's still making them yeah is it still uh does it still have he still loves thrillers yeah do you

like him i do i do love thrillers. Did you make a shift from sci-fi dystopian movies to thrillers at some point and then horror? The truth is that everyone likes to think that producers are really in charge of their own existence. We're not. But you're sought out by a certain type of filmmaker, I would imagine. Well, I tend to be the one seeking things out. And it also depends on the access that agents or managers will give you to their talent. So they tend to pigeonhole you.

They'll send you the scripts or the creators or the directors who make thrillers. Yeah. But I also made a movie called The Water Dance. Yeah. And that won Best First, which is really kind of embarrassing, Best First Feature at Spirit Awards, beating out Reservoir Dogs, Quentin Tarantino. Yeah. It won the audience award at sun dance yeah how'd you get that movie because i knew the i knew the writer director neil jimenez yeah

and you know and and once again it's it's having people who are passionate about a project and that was like a real kind of indie thing total indie yeah it do But you don't do a lot of those, do you? I did a movie called Safe Passage with Susan Sarandon and Sam Shepard. Right. So, you know,

I've done a few. I did a comedy, I've done a couple of comedies. I did a movie called Dick. Oh yeah, with Michelle Williams

and Kirsten Dunst and Dan Hedaya. Right. Yeah, it was about two dog walkers to the president. Right, right, right.

Who turned out to be teenage Deep Throat. Oh, okay. Before we knew that Mark Felt was Deep Throat. Yeah, yeah. How did those movies do for you? You know, I love doing things. Like that film I got because it was a parody. Andy Fleming, the co-writer and director,

someone whose career started off with a film called Bad Dreams. Yeah. And, you know, he had done The Craft. He had done a number of other films. And, you know, it was for Mike Medavoy. Yeah. So it was perfect. So you knew him from back in the day.

Uh-huh. And I guess you build these relationships over time in this town for sure. Yeah. And, you know, if you're trustworthy. Right. And I guess you build these relationships over time in this town, for sure. Yeah. And if you're trustworthy. Right. And you have someone's back. Yeah. And you're not a psychopath.

Yeah. People will actually work with you more than once. And they know you can deliver the goods. Yeah. And then I'll actually be on set and I'll actually do something other than, you know. Right. Just everything okay? Yeah, exactly.

Fire that guy. I'll be in my office right yeah but and armageddon was a huge hit for you right yes that was a big movie that was the number one i've had two number one films um in the world the first was uh well it was terminator 2 yeah and then armageddon and those are likedon. And everybody remembers those movies. It's crazy. And then later, like in the 2000s, you got into the comic book business a bit. Yeah. Early on. Early on.

I know. I know. And oftentimes I'm too early. Oh, yeah. So I recognized that Marvel was going to be a huge franchise tentpole. There was no way it couldn't. Oh, catapult. There was no way it couldn't. Oh, you knew that. There was no way it couldn't be. Because I read comic books from the time that I was a kid.

Yeah. I love science fiction, fantasy, horror, and comic books. And the truth was that Roger Corman knew that too. Yeah. And he was also ahead of his time and plus didn't have the budgets to make the kinds of films that are sustaining. Well, he actually had the rights to, I think, Fantastic Four and made a Fantastic Four. And I think Marvel bought back the rights and it was never released.

No kidding. Mm-hmm. But you did, like, it was starting to happen. I mean, did the Punisher or your Hulk, you did. I did both Hulks. Yeah. So I did the. Eric Bana.

Right. The Ang Lee Hulk as well as the Louis Leterrier Edward Norton Hulk. And the Punisher. Yes. And I did two Punishers. Is he sort of a secondary character? I'm not a huge comic book guy and I've been condescending about the genre. Well, shame on you.

I know. I've made an argument on my podcast before about how culturally we've become infantilized and it's sort of pushed out more of the type of movies that would be engaging for adults. Well, you know what? That's a point. But the good news is that those films are coming back. I mean, I go to the art house cinemas all the time. Right.

And that's a great thing about living in Pasadena. There are a lot of them. The Lemley is great. The Lemley and the Arclight. Yep, the Arclight. Shows a lot too. And the truth is, every time I go to the theater, it's full. Right.

Oh, when you see the smaller movies. When I see the smaller movies. That's because there's so many grownups craving craving them that even without big publicity budgets they're like we've got to go there's there's nothing wrong with that and i also love the fact that we've got a thriving bookstore next to right next to the lemmings we've got romans yeah and so they're you know and and and parents are teaching their kids to appreciate not only great literature. You think? But great film.

Yeah? I do. Okay. Everywhere? I don't know that it's everywhere because that's why, to me, it's important to go to film festivals everywhere. I'm going to the Heartland Film Festival in Indianapolis with Mankiller. I try to go either Valerie Redhorse or i go to as many film festivals as possible because there's so many places that don't have art house cinemas and the only opportunity they have

to see these films yeah is it a festival right i mean that's well that sort of speaks more to my point is that when you have most of the the distribution in the theaters around the country running the bigger marvel movies or more commercial comedies that are usually awful. And there is no outlet. Some of these people have to drive an hour if they want to see a small movie. Whereas it like it should, I think they had a better distribution at another time, or maybe the movies were just different. I mean, there's always been blockbusters or since the eighties. Well, I think, I think the difference really is streaming. I think, I mean, almost everyone says to me, is it worth going to see in the theater or should I stream it? And what do you say?

I mean, if I like something, I go, no, go see it in the theater. You still believe in the theater going experience? Oh, I love it. Yeah, it's great. I love it. I mean, to me, there is nothing better than being in a theater with people who are going on the same journey with you. Yeah, no, absolutely. And you don't need to know them.

Right. But you have a connection with them. And you can't get that at home on your computer. Yeah, you can all walk out confused together if it's a difficult ending. And you go to the restroom afterward and everyone's talking about it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no matter how big they make the screen for your house, even if it takes up a whole wall, you're still not at the movies.

Right. Even if you make popcorn. Yes, exactly. It's a communal experience. So I still, you know, so I was just at TIFF. I was just at the Toronto Film Festival. That's a big one. With Mankiller? No, no, no, no.

Actually, Mankiller screened at Imaginative, which is also in Toronto, run by TIFF, through TIFF. And it's the most important indigenous film festival. That's great. And so we've been invited to festivals all over. We won Best Documentary at the Maori Land Film Festival in New Zealand. Oh, wow. And I'm going to Iceland with it in a couple of weeks. Oh, and I bet you're going to meet a lot of filmmakers.

Yes. So that, to me, is what's so exciting. Oh, that must be incredibly exciting. When you get to be my age, to be re-enthused about the business, it's important to leave Los Angeles. It's important to get to know the people who are starting their careers now. And especially in those communities. I can't, you know, the Icelandic indigenous population, the creativity from that area, it must, like, it's completely different. And that's why, to me, it's so important to support things like Vision Maker Media, which is part of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and make sure that they continue to have a budget because we need those voices.

For sure. Canada does a much better job. Sure. Canada is doing a much better job at everything right now. But because they actually finance, I mean, they finance Canadian filmmakers and not just commercial ones. They finance the, you know, the new voices and the independent voices. And they have a lot of indigenous film financing. That's great. Yeah. And it a lot of indigenous film financing. That's great.

Yeah, and it's part of the national fabric. I mean, there's something about even partial socialism that is sort of like encourages that kind of stuff. It's important, and we should put our money behind it. That's right. You know, that's one thing that seems to happen is that when things falter here, people with money and their heart in the right place do seem to step up a bit. But that shouldn't be the only thing that we rely on. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, the government should encourage and embrace this stuff. Yes. But I think we're a bit away from it right now. Indeed. But you know what?

I like to think that we'll be back on track. Yeah. No, you have to. We have to think. And that's why, back to film, you know, seeing films at the festival, like, you know, I saw American Dharma, which is about Steve Bannon, which is a very interesting film. American Dharma, which is about Steve Bannon, which is a very interesting film. And last night, actually, even though it's screened at TIFF, I didn't see it there. I saw Quincy about Quincy Jones, which is a remarkable documentary.

And I saw Green Book, the film that won the Audience Award. And that's another film that you have to go to the theater to see when it comes out. And it's coming out from Universal. So, you know, so this is a film that'll have. What's that one about? It's, I had never heard of this, but in the 60s, you know, in the 70s, I remember doing road trips and you had the AAA guide to, you know,

well, the Green Book was for African-Americans. Viggo Mortensen. Viggo Mortensen and Mahershala Ali. Yeah. And who starred in a movie that I did called The Wronged Man opposite Julia Armand. Yeah.

And it's about this unlikely duo where Viggo plays an Italian bouncer who's driving Mahershala Ali who plays, and this is based a true story, who is driving Mahershala Ali who plays, and this is based, a true story, who is Don Shirley, who is the leader, the most important African-American pianist

and leader of a trio who played for presidents and had a tour in the South. Right. And the Green Book is where they could stay safely. Yes. Wow. It was great. I loved it. were in the south all right and the green book is where they could say stay safely yes wow so that's a it was great great i just i loved it it i sat there in in a huge theater um it was playing at the egg the elgin theater in toronto which is generally where people go you know thousand or

so people go to see theater yep um and it was another one of those experiences it was the it was the premiere was the world premiere of the film and we knew we'd seen something special everybody could feel it everybody could oh i'm getting choked up just hearing about it like the the that that moment in movies where yeah and it's a movie that will appeal to everyone it's not it's not a movie that will appeal to everyone. It's not a movie that looks down on its audience. It's not a nihilistic film. Right. It's a film about we can all be better.

Right. As long as we understand each other, as long as we can put our sort of bigoted ideas aside, we can find commonality. And it's a great buddy movie. Oh, it's great. I'm looking forward to seeing it. So the documentary that you did and you have other stuff coming out.

Now, I guess moving towards what you're doing now, it seems to me that you were able to do with your career in a very financially lucrative way sort of what Corman set out to do in a way. But you somehow figured out, you know, how to do it and make a lot of money.

Well, not, well, Roger's made a lot more money than I have, but Roger was also risking his money. Right. Because he, because. But you popularize it, I guess, is what I'm thinking. Yeah. Yeah. Because he because you popularize it, I guess, is what I'm thinking. Yeah. And do you feel like you have a sort of a pulse on why these types of movies like I know you produce The Walking Dead.

And did you have any idea going into that, say, that it was going to be the cultural phenomenon that it became? No, no. I mean, back when we were starting it, Frank Darabont and I and Robert Kirkman, who created the comic book, basically said, we want to do well enough that we'll get a second season. Right. I mean, that was our bar. Right. So you don't have any, you're not sort of prescient. Is that the word where you're like, this is, you know. And the other thing to remember is that it would not have been the success that it's become if it hadn't been for streaming. Right. not have been the success that it's become if it hadn't been for streaming right um if it hadn't been for an opportunity to tell serialized stories right where you had to have seen the episode the

previous episode and other in order to understand what the characters are going through because people could catch up on streaming right so amc has that that you can do that there you can do that plus it um it's on netflix yeah so people can catch up. The first season. Every season goes to Netflix after it runs on AMC or simultaneous. Yes. After. Yeah. So last season's available now on Netflix. I think I watched the first few and then I had to. No problem. They're still out there? They are still out there. Good. The zombies are out there. They are still out there. Good.

The zombies are out there. It just seems like there's a whole, you know, several franchises now. Yes. Yeah. What do you think that says about, when you deal with horror specifically, that's horror straight up, right? Yes. Yeah. What do you think that says about where we are culturally or in general? Why is horror appealing?

Well, I'm not a sociologist. But, you know, you make the movies. But I think that when people have the level of insecurity that we all have right now about the state of the world, you know, economic collapse could be any moment um we're natural disasters yeah i mean you name it right um why not just take it over the top and have the dead live yes and that way people can experience this you know anxiety and fear and then and then it's done and it's unlikely that zombie apocalypse is going to happen. But, you know, your favorite characters have survived to live another day. Hope. And there's hope.

And the interesting thing about it is that the Centers for Disease Control came to us and said, listen, we can't get people who are facing an outbreak of SARS or, you know, a hurricane to come on our website and find out what they should do to prepare. And can we do a how to prepare for a zombie apocalypse? We said, sure. And then they had such an enormous response that it crashed their website. Because people would go on to the CDC website in order to learn how to prepare for a zombie apocalypse. And then see the real stuff. And because the truth is, preparing for a zombie apocalypse is very much like preparing for any kind of disaster that you might face. Right.

Because people are contagious. Right. And you need to stock up on supplies and all of that. So they just route them in that direction. Oh, it's genius. And it worked out. It did. Right. You know, you need to stock up on supplies and all that. So they just route them in that direction. Yes. Oh, that's genius. And it worked out. It did.

So a lot more people are prepared for the zombie apocalypse now. And they're prepared for any kind of disaster that might befall them. Really? Mm-hmm. That's amazing that they saw that window to promote. Does that make you feel good yeah because the truth is that whatever it takes to make someone um safer to protect their families and um you know and and and not be caught unaware yeah it's good you know that's a that's a good thing and and that's something that

wouldn't have happened without the walking Dead becoming a huge pop culture hit. The other two things, like in dealing with this new media landscape, so you become obviously very savvy at that. And it offers a lot more opportunity, I would imagine. Right. And I've got a show that's in its second season. Lore. Lore. Yeah.

On Amazon. Started as a podcast. It did. That's encouraging. So there you go. Yes. Where's my show? I know. I had it already. It. On Amazon. Started as a podcast. It did. That's encouraging. So there you go. Yes. Where's my show? I know.

I had it already. It came in one. Well, now you've got a huge acting career. Yeah, it's going okay. I'm doing all right. Not bad. Thank you. So how did Lore happen?

Well, actually, my company was approached by Propagate, which is Ben Silverman and Howard Owen's company. They said that they were optioning the rights to the podcast, which we had listened to. It's like a radio show, right? It is literally lore examines folklore and mythology and tells the true stories upon which those are based oh wow yeah and um you must have been like i love that i mean because what i what i do when i am not producing yeah is

i read non-fiction yeah that is my favorite thing i love historical non-fiction i mean i cannot get enough of it learn yeah so um so the the fact that these were the true stories, and most of them I had never heard of, a few I had, but to be able to explore those on Amazon and be able to do an anthology series is something that I'd always wanted to do. And it's a perfect opportunity. Sure.

So Aaron Manke, who created the podcast, has been very involved. And the first year we work with Glenn Morgan, who is on X-Files. Yep. And then this season, the showrunner's been Sean Crouch, who came from Exorcist.

From the movie? No, Exorcist, there was a TV series. Very highly regarded critically. So these guys, like X-Files and Exorcist, I imagine you hire those guys because they understand that tonal build of these type of stories. And they understand the audience, and they have respect, unlike some people. No, I do. I do have respect.

Okay, for the genre. Yeah. And there are lessons in each one. Yeah. And I love the fact that I'm discovering things that I didn't know. Also, the movie. Hellfest, yeah. Hellfest.

So this is like a Corman movie. Hellfest, yeah. Hellfest. So this is like a Corman movie. It's like a Corman movie, but it's also inspired by the experience of turning The Walking Dead into a maze. The Walking Dead maze is at Universal Horror Nights. Right. There's also actually one at Thorpe Park in England.

Yeah. So this is a worldwide phenomenon. It's not just something in the U.S. Right. Like Universal theme parks. So this is a worldwide phenomenon. It's not just something in the U.S. Right. And. Like universal theme parks. These are theme parks to show. Yeah. I mean, and obviously there's one at Magic Mountain.

Right. They got our maze this year. Yeah. They've got a Hellfest maze. You know, there's not Scary Farm. It hasn't even come out yet? No. And you've got a maze already?

Yes, of course. Hasn't even come out yet? No. And you've got a maze already? Yes, of course. And so, you know, the idea that one of these people in a mask at one of these, you know, scary theme parks could actually be out to get you was the perfect idea. Yeah. How has that not been done?

I know. Well. I don't think the theme parks existed before. Like, you always had the guy in the mask, but he was just in the town. Yeah. How has that not been done? I know. Well. I don't think the theme parks existed before. Like, he always had the guy in the mask, but he was just in the town. Yes. And now that these things exist, they're relatively new. They are relatively new. But I just thought it was interesting that, you know, I don't mean to lean on Corman,

but this seems like a movie, like it could have been a B-movie at a different time. Absolutely. You know, like. I love B-movies. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. You know, like there's, I love B movies. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, you know, they're raw. They're interesting.

They, you know, there's room for a weirdness. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and the director, Greg Plotkin was actually the editor of Get Out. So, so he, you know, exactly. So he comes from, he comes from, I mean, you know, he's got great he's got great elevated genre cred. Yeah. Horror like I and I'm not being condescending to horror fans or sci fi heads.

I just have it was just a specific movie issue. I understand. I mean, but, you know, honestly, one of the most relevant films that if you go back and you look at today which i'm sure other people have mentioned is nine of the living dead oh yeah well i like that stuff great yeah is it i'm not i got no problem with horror yeah the problem is that that you know is that everyone's jumped on the bandwagon yeah and a lot of people who don't respect it don't like it yeah think there's an easy buck to be made right and that doesn't mean that all of us who do care and love the genre will hit a home run every time.

But at least we respect the fans. Yeah, and I'm a Dawn of the Dead guy. I like that. Yes, absolutely. I actually like it more than Night of the Living Dead. The shopping mall sequence in Dawn of the Dead is one of the best things. And also the redneck sequence.

Yeah. I like elements of satire. And there is a lot of that in horror and in sci-fi. Just not so much, I think, in Marvel movies. Well, you know, everything to me is on a scale. Yeah, sure. And I think that a couple of the Captain Americas have had great commentary. I got to watch them.

I got to watch them. I got called out today on an email saying, look, if you're going to do this, you better watch all the movies. And then I got cast in a small part in the new Joker. So I'm getting a lot of shit. Well, there you go. But you know what? You can turn it around. I'm going to have to.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, but on another level, like why wouldn't I do a scene with Joaquin and Robert De Niro in any movie? But I'm still, like they're still on me about it. So I'm going to have to make peace with them. Yeah, you will. Yeah.

And it's great talking to you. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Nice having you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. Nice having you. Thanks for having me. There you go. That's it. That's a

journey, right? Hellfest opens tomorrow. Walking Dead returns October 7th and Lore Season 2 premieres October 19th. Okay, no guitar playing. Happy birthday to me.

Thank you for all your input on my elbow problem. Holy shit. I'm falling apart, man. Old man bumps on my head. Smash finger. Tennis elbow. Bad big toes. This is what you work for, people.

This is what you get if you live long enough. And it's just the beginning, I hope. Boomer lives! It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. We'll be right back. No. But Moosehead? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.