WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 959 - Busy Philipps

Episode Date: October 15, 2018

Busy Philipps is on the cusp of becoming a late night talk show host, so it's appropriate for her and Marc to talk about anything and everything during an afternoon in the garage. Busy explains what it's like raising young daughters, how she navigated life after a sexual assault, and why she feels like she's done with acting, despite staring in beloved shows like Dawson’s Creek, Freaks and Geeks, Cougar Town, Vice Principals. This episode is sponsored by This Week at the Comedy Cellar on Comedy Central, Dream Corp LLC on Adult Swim, Nutrafol, and 23andMe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf did i just did i swear that wdw wdf WTF. Did I just, did I slur that? WTF. WTF. WTF. This is it. This is the show. Thank you for being here. I'm welcoming probably a few new folks coming in today to listen to my guest, Busy Phillips, who's amazing. I truly, I've always, I've always loved her, really, you know, in an appropriate way.

But I've always liked her on screen. I always had a sense that maybe I knew what she'd be like. And so when I finally got to talk to her, she was even better than I thought. That is always the case. What does better mean? How about this? How about I liked her more than I did already. We had a very nice chat me and busy i do want to get some stuff out of the way not out of the way i want to tell you about some things

the wtf book waiting for the punch is out in paperback tomorrow tomorrow tomorrow tuesday we've had a lot of people tell us over the past year how much they've loved it, and we're really proud of the book. Brendan and I worked hard on it. Brendan, harder than me. After the fact of the talk, Brendan was the amazing human index. His memory is transcendent. Is that the word I want? How about unbelievable? You can order a paperback copy at markmarronbook.com or click on the book link at wtfpod.com. Or you can just go to wherever you get books tomorrow, October 16th. I know a lot of you are waiting for this because you want to throw for that hardback. Here's the paper. And also, speaking of books, if I may, my friend Jill Soloway, many of you know her as the creator of Transparent.

She's been on this show two or three times, actually. She's also a director of great stuff. She has a memoir coming out tomorrow. It's called She Wants It, Desire, Power, and Toppling the Patriarchy. So if you're a fan of Jill's and you like her stuff, go get that book too. Get both of them. But if you have to really, if you're up against the wall,

you're like, oh man, I've only got this much money left. I can only afford, waiting for the punch would be the choice to make there. And then loop back around, get Jill's book when you have the extra money. That's not really an amazing plug. Just get both books, all amazing plug just get both books all right just get both books jesus what am i wait why do you got to back me into a corner with this

shit he said to himself again over and over again so friday october 19th i'm going to be hosting this big what's going to be a a pretty amazing show actually it's called across the great divide it's a benefit concert for the american music association and the blues foundation it's going to be me hosting jimmy vivino is going to be leading the band he's the musical director but we got john prine bob weir lucinda williams leon womack Doyle Bramhall II, Shemika Copeland, Larkin Poe, Joe Louis Walker, Tosh Neal, and Slash is coming. And there's also some other special guests that I know about, but I'm not even going to tell you.

But I'll tell you this, John Prine said it's going to be surprising because, enough said, but here's my dilemma, and this is a luxury problem it's not even a problem and some of you out there are going to hate me for it i'm just going to put that out there so i'm hosting this thing you know me and jimmy are friends he lets me play with him so he wants me to play a song that i played with him out in the blues clubs a couple of times stepping out from the blues breakers album john may all in the blues breakers album the famous be no record where eric clapton is the guitar player stepping out is a guitar song

and uh jimmy wants me to go ahead and sit in and that usually wouldn't be an issue because i'll just do it you know if it's a little club but this is going to be at the Ace Hotel Theater. That's where you can get tickets, by the way. Ace Hotel Theater. Just do the searchy thing. So he wants me to do it there, which on the face of it, I can handle that. Okay, yeah, sure. I'll jump in.

But then he's like, you and Slash are going to do Steppin' Out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, back up, man. You know, people do not want to see mark maron play guitar they did not come out to see mark maron kind of wrench through his 8 to 12 blues licks yeah they're there to see slash so mark maron speaking candidly to mark maron was like dude you can't you can't do that you can't sit in with slash and i imagine some of you are like uh yeah you're right you can't and you're not you know it's just like we appreciate your hobby and we're glad you're

having a good time but there's plenty of more deserving folks and i hear that i hear that and i and and maybe none of you are saying that but the uh the guy inside of my head but he's saying it a lot and and now like you know i've got this problem with my arm and my elbow and the other finger is all fucked up so i'm looking for excuses and i just i'm intimidated and i told jimmy that i said look jimmy i'm texting myself i'm nervous about this because slash is slash and i'm you know a comic who's hosting it that enjoys playing guitar by himself generally and jimmy's like don't be nervous you're a natural it's going to be great slash is very giving not completely sensitive to my issue but but uh it was enough for me to go like all right maybe i can do this

right but i don't know you know what here's my ultimate thinking about it i'm gonna do it because who gives a fuck what's the worst that can happen i fuck up the lead people are like why is mark maron playing guitar who gives a shit because i walk away from that you know no matter what happened it's gonna be like i just play with slash uh and now you know that's a pretty big deal so those of you who aren't planning on going and are like oh well if mark maron's gonna play two stanzas of lead on an old blues breaker song with slash that that put me over the the top on that i'm gonna i'm gonna buy a ticket thank you to you people one of you

whatever i'm just telling you there's no reason not to be envious of me or think I shouldn't be doing that. But I'm here to tell you that I give zero fucks about that, really. And that's a new feeling. And I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it unless my arm, like, really hurts. See, I've got a built-in justification for the bail. You dig? The bail. So I was in Phoenix, and I have – I arizona i've been going to arizona for years

my ex-wife's from arizona my brother lives in arizona i've i've been going to arizona for a long time i always like arizona but in recent years i get nervous going to arizona and it's not arizona itself geographically i love the state culturally it's okay politically and anyway you know i've been there i've performed there a lot and i always do well but every time i go there's some part of my brain it's sort of like we're going to be at you know this this room you know with my people in it that night that's going to be all of us but so i get i get nervous i don't know what i'm thinking i'm not going to perform at a fucking Trump rally but I just I always there's sort of part of me that's sort of like I don't know man I don't know but man I'll tell you it was a it was an amazing show great people came was tight

uh Jill Kimmel opened for me and I I'm an idiot I didn't even ask but she's Jimmy's sister so that was kind of nice hanging out with her I got caught up on you know how Jimmy's kid is doing he's doing fine and got to meet her and talk to her. She did a good job. My brother was in town. That's the other thing, man. Something's going on with me. I don't know if I'm more vulnerable or more open or some shit.

I don't know what it is. But I turned 55 and something contracted and opened, if that makes sense. All of a sudden sudden it's sort of like wow i'm you know i'm pretty far you know i'm in i'm in the second half here might be the the last third who the hell knows but something happened in my brain you know i yeah a lot of the things that i use to sort of like keep people away or or act out or or or you know like just like i'm just totally onto myself all of a sudden and i realized like you know man uh whatever and i think this is good advice for any everybody you know it's like if you're you know at odds with family members for whatever

reason even if they don't know it or it's in your mind you know think about it because you're going to get to a point where you're going to be like why did i keep a distance why did i why was i judgmental why was i a dick why you know sometimes there's good reasons but a lot of times it just becomes a habit and it's based on old shit you don't have that much time on the planet and your family's your family i know it's weird coming from me, but I don't got anything against my brother, but I think, you know, we don't talk enough. You know, I've been judgmental in the past, but, you know, we spent the day together, spent some time with his son. We talked, we, you know, kind of bonded. We went over our notes in terms of how we're both dealing with

the trauma of our childhood. You know, he's got some tips. I got some tips. How are you doing with this? Are you still doing that? And he's like, no, fuck that. I'm not even going to worry about that anymore. See, that sounds like that. So maybe you ought to work on it. You know, that kind of thing. So we did a little catching up on our approach to what we've had to reckon with emotionally.

We had some food. You know, he came to the show, hung out backstage. Yeah, it was nice nice i guess it's uh i guess it's just i don't know man maybe it's just a psa if your family's not a complete fucking disaster who makes you fear and tremble with anger and pain uh give them a call you know if it is get over a bull get over over it and fucking, you know, reconnect. Because in these trying times and as you get older, you're going to want those people around. All right.

Or at least you want to be able to call them. They know you mean they come from the same war. Your family, your siblings, they were in the same war as you maybe not everybody looks at their childhood like that i don't know the same how about just the same battlefield how about that so listen the other thing i wanted to tell you that happened in phoenix if i could if you got a minute so i get to the club and i'm walking out the hotel and I'm just seeing hey there's a lot of people out here you know dressed kind of weird there's a lot of like uh Tony you know uh Tommy Bahama shirts there's a lot of uh strange headgear and hula skirts and I'm like what the fuck is happening I find the night that I'm performing there in Phoenix there's a Jimmyimmy buffett a massive jimmy buffett um concert and on enclave or

what is it gathering a buffett gathering what are they called parrot heads and uh i tell you man why can't i just let people have their good time i can but it doesn't mean i'm not going to talk about it i mean i walk out of the hotel and i'm you know they're just like hundreds of these people with their hawaiian shirts on you know and then every place out in that area is playing jimmy buffett songs i get up to the the comedy club and the restaurant across the way he's got like jimmy buffett cover band in there and it's full of these jimmy buffett people and they're playing it's like it was inescapable for about a half hour and that's a half hour way too fucking long if you're asking me it was like being in the circle of hell,

reserved for the sin of having bad taste in music. But I didn't quite understand, I guess, just how popular he is. And I know I'll get a little pushback. It's like, hey, man, why don't you shut up? People, it's family fun. We all go out. We get a little fucked up. And we sing along.

It's like an hour and a half sing-along about cheeseburgers and margaritas and whatever other ones he's got i don't know see that's a little condescending but look it's it is what it is but i didn't really realize that he had this kind of following it's like the it's like the grateful dead for golfers you know if your drug is golf and uh and beer yeah that this is who this is where you go it was surprisingly no uh it seemed very white-ish i think that you know that in my mind that could be what a small slice of fascism could look like if it sort of takes over there'd be the the sort of uh you know tommy bahama shirt uh outfit of a certain sect. We'll see.

That's all I can say. We'll see. Wasting away again in Margaritaville. See, like, how do I even know? Yeah. It's in there. It's in there. I get it.

But, you know, I fought it. That's all I'm saying. I fought it. So, Busy Phillips, what a lovely and neuroticotic kindred spirit i might say her new memoir this will only hurt a little comes out tomorrow a lot of books coming out tomorrow also she's the host of a new late night talk show busy tonight it premieres october 28th on e and i had a great time hanging out with her. And now you're going to hear that happen. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything.

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For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel.

To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I have bad knees. Yeah. I've like dislocated both of my knees.

I've had knee surgery. Jesus. How the hell did that happen? Well, I did, many different ways. Both knees? Yeah. What, skiing? No, no, it's so lame.

I wish. One time when I was in... Just getting up? Yeah, kind of. Well, once, yeah. On a skateboard, trying to impress boys when I was in middle school. Uh-huh.

Oh, in a mosh pit. Oh. middle school. Oh, in a mosh pit. Oh. But I wasn't actually in the mosh pit. I was just sort of a bystander. And you got hit by a person? And I got hit by a person. What concert was that? It wasn't.

It was the seventh grade school dance. Wow. It's in my book, Mark. It's all in my book. I know. I know it's on your book, like here's i'll tell you honestly and you're about to be an interviewer yeah yeah yeah when someone has a book yeah and you know that they're they're good talkers it it behooves you not to get too far into the book or you'll

lead them right because then you're looking for like what about that yeah yeah right so like you know if we hit some of the stuff in the book i'm good with it it seems like i tend to i found myself i you know reading the parts that were profoundly disturbing yeah okay yeah that was those and yeah but not what i mean catholicism uh when i say that yeah but wait let's not no no no but anyway so yeah and then i dislocated my knee when i was on a tv show called dawson's Creek. See, I knew about that. I'm not a moron. You were drunk on Dawson's Creek. Drunk in a bar.

I wasn't, it wasn't while we were filming. It was off camera. You were shit faced in a bar with some of the other Dawson's Creekers. And I dislocated my knee. And those are big events. When you dislocate a knee, you become the scent of attention very quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did the mosh pit stop?

Yeah, they had to shut down the school dance. Because of your... Yeah. It was really humiliating, I'm not going to lie. I'm sorry. But I also, like, I have pretty intense anxiety and depression. I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I do too. Yeah. But do you find you're depressed I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do too. Yeah. But do you find you're depressed too? Sometimes, yeah. But do you ever think, like what I realized about myself, if I could share this with you? Yeah, I would like it. Is that I realized fairly recently that my anxiety is always there. Yes.

I'm sort of like a dread guy. You know, like, oh God, I gotta, you know, like it never stops. But, you know, it's not debilitating. But if anxiety gets to a point where your brain just kind of gives in, you kind of get this paralysis that feels like depression. But I think it's just the last stage of anxiety. Well, that's interesting. Maybe that's true. I'm not I'm not a medication for depression.

But I do find that. Yeah, maybe you're right, that it gets really overwhelming. And then I, what I get is this, like, it, I don't know how else to describe it. It's just like hollow. Like, I just feel like. Empty? Yeah. Exhausted? Yeah. Like slightly detached from your body? Yes. Oh my God. I had that today. Yeah. I had, yes, I had on Saturday, I had, Saturday I had a really crazy thing happen to me, Mark. I mean, it's been like a weird fucking time just in the world, but also for me personally, just it's just been a weird time. And on Saturday, I got so overwhelmed with rage that I almost like I got nauseous and

that's never happened to me before. Like I thought I was going to puke and i was so angry and i just was trying to explain it to mark my husband mark yeah um and i and i was like i just have been so fucking angry for so long and i have nowhere to fucking put it and i almost vomited like Like I was so overcome. And then that hollowness thing set in. It happened. It happened. Because all the feelings get stuffed and you just gut yourself.

Yeah. Leave your body. Well, I mean, it was a heavy week. It was a heavy week for women everywhere. It was a heavy week for the country and you just went public with your assault. Yeah. So, I mean, of course that must have reopened it.

I mean, you could track it, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah. I know, but like even when you can intellectually like point to all it doesn't help why does it not help the emotion why does it not help the rawness of the thing well i think sometimes like the anger thing like i don't know like even today like i get angry over bullshit and it's because uh i think a lot of times it's just because of sadness. Right. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

It's like, what do you want to cry or yell? You know what I mean? Sometimes I do both at the same time. Oh, yeah. A lot of times, actually. Well, I mean, what was the reaction in general to you? It's in the book. Right, right.

But you vocalized it in relationship to what was going on in the Senate as well and for women in general. Well, I guess what happened for me on that morning, we're talking about the Kavanaugh hearings and Dr. Ford. I've come to terms with this thing that happened to me when I was 14 over the last 25 years. with this thing that happened to me when I was 14 over the last 25 years by that when I was about 20 18 19 I started going to therapy and really like digging into what it was because how I had classified it for a while and how I had tried to justify it in my brain my little baby brain to make it okay for myself was not that I was raped like it was that I was in this relationship with this person well yeah and like I always am not to interrupt but just to say you know so people know we're talking about I mean the the thing that I found the most disturbing

that story of losing your virginity to you know and not having much say in it and it being a horrible experience is a fairly common story. For sure. I said, I just said to some friends, I'm on this like one, I hate, this is interrupting this,

but like sometimes group texts are just the bane of my existence. Like I get added to them and then I'm just like mute them. But I am on this group text with a bunch of people that I performed within this show at Largo,

the Thrilling Adventure Hour show for years. And they were all like sort of reaching out that day when i posted the picture of me at 14 and said i was raped and and i was like guys i the i love you all so much and thank you so much and this is sadly the most unoriginal horror. Like it just is. Like it just, I know so many women who have such similar stories. And then even the way that like I tried to own it at age 14 and 15 and yeah, right. I'm a fucking slut. Like-

Yeah, and also like this is the way sex is. Oh yeah, oh for sure. Yeah, I think there's a lot of women that don't identify those first experiences as assault or rape. I hope that we can start to have the conversation and we can because now I have a 10-year-old daughter. Yeah. I mean, my friends have 14-year-old kids.

My friend just texted me this morning and she was like, you know, our daughter is 14 and I was looking at your post again this morning and just like thinking of my kid and crying. And I think that that also has shifted the way that I've been able to think about it, being a parent of a young girl and seeing how little, like how little 14 is. And we think we're grownups at that age. Oh, for sure.

When you're 14 or 15, you're like, I'm there. Right there right yeah i know what's up and i mean to look at these babies yeah and their little baby brains i mean they make no sense they're like idiots you know but i think that whole sort of like high school thing that there's some sort of strange pressure from you know all sides to to get that out of the way somehow but i had but i had so many friends that like that didn't that didn't it didn't work that way for them they were like like one of my best friends i remember she was like dating this kid and like her mom sat her down her mom was just very progressive and liberal and like she was young she was like 15 or almost 16 maybe and she was like let's go to the doctor Let's get you on the pill. Let's talk about things. And you never got that. No, I never fucking got that. But Catholicism. Right. Right. Talk about that in the book. Well, I mean, it's heavy that those conversations don I have already talked about sex. Like she asked a lot of questions.

And then just the other day I got on Saturday, the day, the day of the rage. Yeah. I was dropping her off at her little like theater program that she does. And I just, a thing popped up that I had gotten an email from a girl I was really close with when I was 14, apologizing to me for what hurt like for not i don't know just for all of it i guess and it just took my breath away a little bit and birdie was like what was that and i was like oh nothing buddy you know i have this book coming out you know that and she's like yeah i know and i said so listen if you see anything or read anything i need you to and you have questions i need you to come talk to me about it because i will i will tell you anything but i want to be the one to tell you so if anyone says anything to you

read any articles about you about me yeah like come talk to me because i want to i want to tell you yeah so you can like manage the situation from that because you have no control over how people. It's the worst. It's tricky. Being a public person. She didn't ask for this. No. I don't know.

Neither did you really. Well, I for sure did not. That's the truth. But yeah, I mean, I guess like as she gets a little bit older, we'll dig in. But we're just wholly different people, my husband and I. And he's a different kind of dad and we're just different humans. Yeah, like how? Like where, what's he come from?

Mark comes from Maryland. What's the big difference in your approach? What's the big difference in your approach? I think that we're just a little bit more participatory in terms of like, you know, I had a dad that was like very quiet and worked and came home. And it was like more like weirdly like a 50s structure. And maybe that's the Catholicism, too. Even though my mom had a job, like she was expected to like make dinner and have it on the table and that kind of thing. Where'd you grow up?

You grew up outside of Chicago? No, I was born in Oak Park outside of Chicago and then we moved to Arizona. I grew up in Arizona. Wow. I had like sort of, my family had a really hard time

with my book. Yeah, they're gonna. Yeah. Unless one of them's a complete self-centered. My mother, even if I say kind of bad things about her, she's like, that was fun. She's just thrilled that it's about

her somehow. Oh, you have the advance. I had to put, I got, you know, like they make you put like the quotes on the back of the book. And so Miranda July gave me one, which was like so exciting for me and thrilling. And Tina Fey gave me one. And then I was waiting for other people.

People, you know, have their own timeline and whatever. But the book had to like go to print. And so I just put the text that my mom sent me when she finished it, which was like, just finished your book. It's a good book. I love you. That's it. Just finish your book. It's a good book. Right. Great. We just finish your book it's a good book right great but but we're never talking about this again right but you have to commend her detachment on some on some

level yeah yeah right i mean like you know you know what you know what the subtext is but she you know she didn't make it about her that's true actually you know what? That's true. Give it up to Barb Phillips. I think that for a long time I was like, I was like rearing to tell my stories. And I tried to like sell a book of essays when I was in my mid 20s. When you were on what show? What was your, what was your profile? It was probably like right post Dawson's Creek. So people knew who you were and you had an opportunity? It was probably like right post Dawson's Creek. So people knew who you were and you had an opportunity? Yeah.

Well, no, no. I mean, I talked to a book agent and I gave her some essays that I had written about a lot of the early stuff that was in the book. And she was just like, no, this is not. No. She was. I mean, truly, the quote was, I think that people aren't going to care so much about, you know, losing your virginity and pregnancy scares. They want to know more what it was like to work with Katie Holmes. And I was like, oh,

well, I'll give you that, too. But sit through the fucking rape. You know, I had to. Rape aside, what was it like working with Katie Holmes? Yeah, right. Exactly. It felt so dismissive and heartbreaking. And I was like, well, fuck you. All right, fine. I'm not writing a book. But I'm glad. I'm glad. I needed more perspective. Right.

And you have it. I have it now. And then you have motherhood and you have all new experiences and you've turned out okay and you're self-aware. It's happening a little bit. Some days. Some days are better than others. But at that point, even then, you had framed it as a rape? No.

Not then. So it's lucky that you had framed it as a rape? No. Not that. So it's lucky that you didn't write the book then. Right. Because what would you have said? That's right. Well, right. That's right. I actually went back and read that essay.

Yeah. That I waited until after I was finished with this version of the book. And what was that? It was more, I mean, it's more just like more gray. It's just gray. It's just more gray i don't you put the more uh more onus on yourself yeah but even to this but even when i posted so when i posted the thing on instagram yeah and i said the word raped i truly had like i it was like a panic attack like Like I called my husband, Mark. I was in New York doing press and I called him and he was like.

I'm so proud of you. And I was like, but I I feel I it was just so just even admitting that publicly, even though I write about it in the book, I don't even know. I don't know what the distinction is between the two things. Seeing it in black and white and with that picture of me. I don't know what the distinction is between the two things. Seeing it in black and white and with that picture of me, I don't know. It was really a hard, it's been a hard few days actually. It's just been a really hard few days for me. Yeah. And when you say that, like that in framing it the way you have framed it now, which is

what it is, how do you see, what was the learning of how it affected your life i mean like was it it's been a fucking shit show i mean not not not the admitting of it but like the actual event because like you know yeah like was that a revelation that's sort of like oh this is why i do this this is why i have like intimacy issues i have problems trusting myself and my own feelings and knowing what's real and what isn't. Right. In terms of love, in terms of other people. Relationships and other people and especially, you know, Mark and I write a little bit about

like some of the, because he and I have been together now, oh years i guess yeah a long time and i write a little bit about how how tricky things have been for us to try to navigate although i don't think that's unusual but there's other stuff that's not in the book that is you know it's it's it's horrible to not be able to you know to to know what to not be clear uh as to what love is right and and also to like you know not trust your own feelings about it for for whatever reason you know rape is a very specific reason but sometimes just absent parents right emotional like you right so you like it were you and were you a drama person in terms of relationships before yeah but also like mark and i were talking about it he's very i picked a dude who was very similar to my dad in a lot of ways like when mark and i

isn't that always the way always the fucking way fucking fred and even annoying even when you think you don't like there's that initial period, you're like, this person is nothing like them. Like about six months in, you're like, what the fuck? It's just the other parent. Yes. Like,

how did I get my dad this time? Usually it's my mom. I know. It's insane. And Mark had all of those things like, which weren't sort of initially apparent. Yeah. And then once we had Birdie,

he like peaced out and was just like like just just like very much like my dad like the first kid the first kid like not doing anything not taking and i it was on all on me like i had to wake up with her all the time and it's all all of this shit is so crazy right now in terms of like what men's responsibilities are, how we like redefine roles in relationships and parenting and things like that. Like it is it's really complicated because there is a certain thing where like no matter what, the mom is the fucking mom. And like that's what the babies want. Mommy.

The babies want the mom. Yeah. Sorry, dudes. Right. But is that a problem? It's not a problem unless you feel completely unsupported and there's not a person there. Yeah. And then you get resentful.

And then you code the kid wrong. Exactly. Oh, Birdie. You want to make sure you give the kid the right code. Brain code. Yeah. Maybe coded Birdie a little bit wrong. But Cricket, we are like nailing it.

She's so good. She's like a lot. But the fortunate thing about the first one is that, what's the age difference? Well, they're five years apart. All right. So the center of attention for that long, that's going to carry her a long way. I know. You know, that confidence of being that.

It won't break down until she's like 19. I know. I always say to her, I'm like, dude, you're going to be in therapy talking him out me for years. So you may as well just like get on board. It's going to be fine. Yeah. It always, I don't know. You know, I'm with you on that.

Intimacy is tricky, you know, and you don't realize how guarded you are until that one day where you're like, am I even present in this thing? Yeah, it is. Wait, am I talking present in this thing? Yeah, it has. Wait, am I talking to a wall? Is all this drama just for, what I used to find, I guess I'm talking about me, which is not unusual. I like it. Is that if you create enough drama just naturally, like you're emotionally wired or coded in a certain way that you are going to seek, you know, what you grew up with.

Right. And you don't know what's happening. to seek you know what you grew up with right it's just and you don't know what's happening but like if i was a guy that was always in like very kind of like yelling dramatic crazy and i was yelling and dramatic and crazy so there's all this emotion going around and when you have that and you make up or you it settles down you're like see what this is intimacy like we have to arc out and make it did you grow up in like a screaming household like me i grew up in an emotionally erratic household my father was detached but when he was engaged it was not always good yep same you know like he wasn't around much and when he was around

either was sort of like where's my hammer right right right that was like a day yeah it's like you know we're going skiing where's my hat and that was like a fucking day. Right. And my mother was just kind of like into her own trip. Uh-huh. But it wasn't, you know, I think they were both self-involved. Yeah. And so like, you know, I kind of naturally, I'd done some reading on the whole kind of what we do when your parents are emotionally detached or overly, you know, boundaryless or whatever.

Right. Is that you self-parent and the way that you innately do it's not great the parent you choose is going to be one that's going to be a little hard on you and it's going to end up you know with all that kind of like self-doubt and all that shit what so you grew up in a that speaks to me does it yeah it does yeah there's a book that just sort of blew my mind about what is that it's a It's a little dense. It's called The Fantasy Bond by this guy, Robert Firestone. But he really talks about, you know, these bonds you make to sort of as like stand-ins for your parents and that like your own attempt.

Here's the deal. You want the key to it? Yeah. Which is like fucked up. The thing that blew my mind is that when you're young, if you're not feeling cared for, you're feeling uncomfortable in the world, or you're feeling emotionally ill at ease or ill supported. At that point, you're taught almost innately that your parents are your parents

and they're always good. Right. So at that young age, you just naturally blame yourself. Right. Right. So, okay. Right. So that's like a hell of a burden.

Yeah. Like, you know, parents are always good. It must be me. And then, you know, whatever you do to sort of parent that is sort of like you asshole. Right. Yeah. You're fucking garbage. Right. So that that was kind of a big. like looks at me and he's like, what goes on in your brain? You are so hard on yourself. Look at this, like look at your life and what you've done and who you are and how people respond to you. Why do you think you're garbage?

And then you're like, cause of this one tweet. Did you see the one tweet from, from a guy with no name? This, this one guy didn't thought I was stupid in Dawson creek and like i don't know who he is oh my god mark um a million years ago like basically pre-internet do you remember that on imdb there used to be like chat boards on imdb so i used to troll my own imdb and see the

horrible things that people would write about me and And I mean, there could be, and you know, because you just said it, there could be 4 million. Oh, I love you. She's the greatest. And then there's one guy. And I was so fixated on this guy. I wrote this crazy response that was like two pages long and posted it on IMDb.

I must have been like 20 years old at the time. When I did radio, some guy wrote this shitty email about me and I emailed him back to ask him what specifically about me was a big problem. And we went back and forth to the point where he said, why do you keep emailing me? Like, what is it? Like, all of a sudden, I'm the guy who's pestering him. Yeah. Because it's some sort of fucked up speedball where you're like, we love you. Yeah.

You're the best. Okay. You're shit. Like, what the fuck? Yeah. Is that it? Yeah. I guess it speaks to our own, you know, yeah, that it triggers that thing we feel about

ourselves. Yeah. And you're sort of like, this guy's right. Yeah. That's the one. He knows. That's the one I'm listening to. He knows.

I said to Mark last week, because, you know know I have this talk show that's about to come that starts in a couple weeks. Busy Tonight. Busy Tonight on E! Four nights a week. And I said to Mark, I don't think I can handle people being mean to me. I don't know what I'm going to do when it starts to happen. Because I understand it will happen.

I know people are going to... It's going to happen because i'm not i understand it will happen i know people are gonna happen she's grating she's annoying i hate her voice why is she fat and ugly and horrible whatever i don't know whatever they're gonna say that in between 90 fuck this bitch right fuck this bitch oh god what am i gonna do what am i gonna do i'll tell you what you do what okay well you tell me no you okay he said he said we gotta you gotta stop you gotta stop reading stuff he's like i think you gotta do a little self-preservation and not read the stuff just like don't just shut it down well that that is what you gotta do and it's hard but like you know i don't i don't don't do you have a google alert on your name no don't do that and also like i have found have found, we had a comment board on the website for the podcast,

which is like this minor traffic. And what happens is a lot of times is that communities form around trolling bullshit. Right. So if you really look at it, a lot of times it's like nine people who just constantly post. Right, right, right.

Right, you know? But Instagram's been like very instrumental. I'm bad at it. In my thing. Yeah, you're like a star on Instagram. I went from being a moderately successful television actress to an Instagram influencer. Yeah, an influencer. That's a new word, right?

Influencer and content. Yeah, my content's huge, Mark. But you know what? Fuck it. I got a TV show and a book deal out of it so whatever no no it's great but like you do have to like not use comment boards to uh kind of beat the shit out of yourself and i you know it it's hard here's well here's like this is the truth of matters like you know being triggered not in a sexual way but in a in a sort of shame or or or like you know i i'm a piece of

shit way yeah there there is a point where you your instinct is sort of like why but then you like if you just wait a second like it's like anger too if you get you know just wait a minute and and don't do anything about it and just realize like that's nobody does he does he or she represents nobody it's not the internet saying anything it's one guy who or one woman what are they doing like it's just you know realize that it's just this one person could be at work bored right in a cubicle at a life they hate and they're like and and you a major sort of like public personality or something they they don't they don't even think you read i know i know and and and here we are like i spent my entire day

going like oh my god what the fuck i don't even want to be in this business anymore i know over you know what like nine people yeah that's the truth i know well we know this again it's like intellectual doesn't line up with the emotional like i'm well we know this again it's like intellectual doesn't line up with the emotional like I'm well aware right but you just gotta like stop it but I can't

it's also just like it's scratching that itch it's like yeah the same itch it's like cutting it's like how I used to watch it is like cutting it is

it's like our new version because like at least you're feeling something at least you're feeling something that's the fucking worst yeah but you have but you have all these other things, at least you're feeling something. At least you're feeling something. That's the fucking worst. Yeah. But you have all these other things in your life. You're feeling like you have children.

I do have children, yes. And like every day, you know, the amazing joy of that. It's so fucking hard, Mark. Okay. I don't have any. Yeah, it's tough. You're not selling it. Listen, my kids are incredible.

I'm so glad I had them right they're awesome humans and i hope will add to the world in some positive way of course they will but um it is difficult i bet you know i it's like i i was fortunate in that i i knew like i was the kind of person like i never really thought about having them it was never a goal in my life I was like I'm gonna have a family yeah so when I actually didn't for different reasons you know like I just I never thought about it I don't think it's unusual for men to not have that feeling my brother loves it I know but like my husband like truly I've basically like forced didn't force children but I just when we decided we were gonna get married I was like you know I'm I want children he's like yeah I mean I could take it or leave

it like he didn't yeah but now have any desire he had no desire to have children is he born again daddy now though like I mean yeah he's like all in yeah that's what happens I don't care and then when it happens like oh my god he's like obsessed yeah, we both like make we both hate that thing now with dudes where they're like, never known the joy of hold like I do with holding my baby. Mark's like, I mean, I guess I don't know. that I don't really have that much regret. When I talk to people my age who now have kids in their 20s or people in your age group, it's always like, I love them, but God damn it.

I'm like, maybe it wasn't horrible that I missed that. I don't always know what to do with myself. I get to nap more. I'm so fascinated by that. I'm fascinated by my friends who've chosen to not have children and like, what is your day? Like, what is your life?

Like, it's so, I remember when- Are you saying that with envy? Yes, envy, but like also just like, I don't know, so much of our time is just spent like dealing with the kids and kids stuff. Consumed, you can't clean your house, you just take for granted that you're going to slip on a toy. I mean, it's never ending. There's food everywhere. Dirty dishes everywhere. I met Mark. Mark's older than me. He's nine

years older than me. When I met him, he was in his 30s and I was in my 20s and he legitimately slept until 1130. Oh my God. Every day. You can't do that when you're in your 50s. It won't happen. You just wake up it's the worst but yeah yeah i i wrote a joke about it i don't like i like my my angle is i'm not a god

person but if there is a god this the waking up early makes me wonder because it's sort of like god saying like you better get up there's not a lot of time left you're running out you might want to be awake for this it's like that thing when you're pregnant, you know, in the first trimester and the last trimester, you have to wake up like four times a night to pee. Like your body just does it. I wake up twice, but it's my prostate.

It's not pregnant. But I'm telling, but I think that that's like, that's like by design for pregnant women. So that because once the baby comes, you have to wake up four times a night to feed them. Like, it's like getting you ready. So I'm just wondering what. Oh, yeah. What the waking up.

Yeah. I mean, I. What it's getting you ready for. It's getting me ready for like, you know, you've got a limited amount of time to try to experience happiness. Oh, God. Or feel peace of mind. I don't know.

But like all these things, I think you're right, because there are fucking lizards that change colors to trees so they don't get eaten or they can eat things. And, you know, to think that as complex as we are, that there's not all these built in things. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure there are scientists and research on this. We just don't know what they are and we'd rather speculate. Yeah, I like that.

It's more fun to see. Oh, yeah. Speculating is great. But you guys are both doing the parenting thing and it sounds pretty good. It's all right. Yeah. Like when I think about having children right now, I'm nervous for the kid in the crib. Like just thinking about him, like, is he alive in there?

Should we go in and look? You have no idea. I don't. That it is truly the most terrifying year of your life. The first year? Yes. Oh, my God. Just sort of like is it

okay is she all right i also really had and you're anxious anyways i'm anxious anyways and i had horrible like postpartum anxiety which i didn't even know was not depression everyone talks about postpartum depression postpartum anxiety is like i mean the fucking worst i was paralyzed with anxiety i'm just terrified how could you not be i'm paralyzed now from you talking about it I mean, the fucking worst. I was paralyzed with anxiety. I'm just terrified. How could you not be? I'm paralyzed now from you talking about it. It was really stressful.

But it turns out they, like, this is the one thing that I take from talking to parents is that, you know, once they become their own person, they're a little more resilient than you expect. Right. Right. Like, you know, like you're talking about your 10 year old. Yeah. She's formulating her own ideas. You can put yours in. Yeah. You know, and do the best you expect. Right. Right. Like, you know, like you're talking about your 10 year old. She's formulating her own ideas.

You can put yours in, you know, and do the best you can. But ultimately, they're going to be their own people. Yeah. One way or the other.

And hopefully they're good. They're grounded. She's so her own person already. Yeah. Somebody said, this might have been Oprah. I may have seen this on Oprah when I was a kid.

That like by the age of four or something like that, you're barring trauma. You just are who you are. So like four. Yeah. So like a kid's personality by the age of four. That's how that kid is going to be for their entire life. Barring trauma, which we know can affect people. Right.

Yeah. But I kind of anecdotally just with with my two kids, already see it. Really? It's true. Yeah. Like, Birdie is the same human that she was when she was four years old. Like, the same way she reacts to problems, the same way she throws temper tantrums at the same thing.

She's, like, frustrated by the same things. Her insecurities are the same. Like, all of it's the same. You should write this down. Yeah. For when she's older. And so you can just say, like, look, you're really, you know. You should write this down. Yeah. For when she's older. And so you can just say, like, look, you're really, you know, this is who you are. And we have to.

You've always been this way. You've always been this way, kid. I wrote a line once that said, the monster I've created to protect the kid inside me is hard to manage. Me too. I know, right? Yes. My monster is fucking rough. It is. Yes. I know, right? Yes. My monster is fucking rough. It is.

Yes. I know. I said to Mark yesterday, we were in an elevator and I was like, I'm sorry. I'm such a fucking bitch. I'm sorry. What did you do? I'm such a pain in the ass. What did you do?

I don't know. Nothing. I don't know. It's just another moment in my life. Another day. It's tough. Well, when you track that right so you're growing up in arizona which town scottsdale that's where my brother lives oh really where my

first wife lived in scottsdale my my first uh wife lived right at the base of uh of uh camelback mountain yeah is that the one yeah camelback yeah where the monk is uh-huh yeah they they've lived in that old development right there i know exactly what you're talking about. You ended up there from Chicago because your dad, what, had a job? Yeah, my dad's a nuclear engineer. And he- A scientist. I guess.

Is that right? Yes. Okay. I mean, well, I mean, is that- He's an engineer. An engineer, but nuclear? Yeah, nuclear. But it's definitely math heavy.

I think so, yeah. Yeah. But like that would account for- I never really knew what he did growing up. Like really had no idea do you now no he's retired um i was sworn to secrecy or you just don't know for a while i was like hoping that he was like a secret agent for the cia that was like that to me that was like the story i was creating in my head that could like explain why he didn't talk to us. Right.

Sworn to secrecy. If he told you, he'd have to kill you. Yeah. So that's why we didn't know. Yeah. But he worked for a private consulting firm out of Chicago and then was transferred or needed to go to work at the Palo Verde nuclear plant in Arizona. And so we were, he was transferred there and we moved there. It was supposed to be like a temporary consulting job. Yeah. It ended up being forever. Well, I'm just saying

that might account for some of the, I guess it's sort of a stereotyping, but, but, you know, usually the engineer sort of mathy people are not the most emotionally available folks. Yeah. He also wasn't, he, I know like in the last 10 years or so he like has gone on antidepressants and is like a totally more engaged person and they also they seem to

soften up a bit yeah as they get older you know when grandkids come and you know when the things start they start forgetting I guess so

their life I guess no he hasn't bless him yeah no he has he loves he's great with the girls and my sister's got two kids and oh wow yeah it's just you and your sister yeah and so your mom was like basically she worked too my mom was a real estate agent yeah wow she wanted to be an actress mark

of course yeah she did yeah so you lived with that there yeah. So how is it over time, how has she adjusted to you living her dream? I mean, I think that we had kind of different dreams, but... What did she want to be? She wanted to be like a Broadway singer star. Oh, really? Yeah. Was she from New York? No, she was from Chicago.

They're both Chicago? Uh-huh. They met in high school. Do they talk Chicago-y? Oh, yeah. My mom. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. That's great. Never goes away, York? No, she was from Chicago. They're both Chicago? Uh-huh. They met in high school. Do they talk Chicago-y? Oh, yeah. My mom. Yeah. Oh, yeah?

Oh, yeah. That's great. Never goes away, right? Never goes away. Do you still have family in Chicago? Yeah. My two aunts, my dad's sister and my mom's sister both live there. I love Chicago.

I do, too. I'm going there on my book tour. Oh, that's great. I know. It's really kind of an amazing city. It is amazing. I know, and I feel it's interesting because even though we moved away when I was five, I spent almost every summer of

my childhood, my grandparents lived there and aunts and uncles. And so we spent a great chunk of summer vacation every year in Chicago, in Oak Park, and then going to Wisconsin, to Lake Geneva. And so I feel like a very strong connection to it, even though I really grew up in Arizona. Yeah, I'm the same way with Jersey. Like I'm genetically from New Jersey. Both my parents are from Jersey. My grandparents were there.

I grew up going there, but I didn't grow up there. I grew up in New Mexico. But I think I'm fundamentally- I grew up in New Mexico? I grew up in Albuquerque. No wonder I like you. Southwest? Yeah, it's a really specific thing. It is. And Arizona is a little different than New Mexico? I grew up in Albuquerque. No wonder I like you. Southwest? Yeah. It's a really specific thing.

It is. And it's, Arizona's a little different than New Mexico. It's a little more cowboy-y, white-y-ish. Oh, yeah. For sure. Like, New Mexico is pretty, like, a little more kind of hippie-ish and Latino. Yeah. But, yeah, it's a similar vibe.

You can appreciate the mesas. The mesas and the, there's something about the desert and the sky and the wide open spaces. Oh, it's great. I fucking love Arizona when it's like 110 and you're outside walking and you're just high because you get immediately dehydrated. You don't even need drugs. You're just sort of like, what is happening?

And like, oh, I'm about to pass out. I'm about to pass out. And like monsoons, like people don't understand monsoons unless they... Oh, the 10 minute hardcore rain? Yes, unless they grew up in the Southwest. It's just like really a specific energy. It's so beautiful. People that grew up there.

That's interesting. So how do you get out of Arizona? I mean, before that, like how heavy was the Catholicism trip? We were pretty religious, I guess, my family. I mean, I was really into church and i really liked it um do you go now no my mom actually to her credit yeah when the first round of um like revelations about the abuse and the church came out and like the mid two thousands, whenever that went, I don't know.

You know, she like, she was like, I'm done with the Catholic church. I've asked people that on stage, like what's it going to take? Yeah. And she,

but like, I just have to, you know, like my mom was like, we're done. And so she switched to an Episcopalian church. Oh, nice.

Kept Jesus in, just lighten the load a little. Yeah. Well, I think it was really hard for her, but she was just like i don't want to be a part of this system i won't be a part of the system the system that's been going on for thousands of years of years but i think that for someone like my mom she didn't really i don't know

she i guess she didn't really she didn't know but were you brought up afraid of hell yes so that's heavy. Yeah, I guess so. I'm trying to think. But then it just like, I don't know. You get older and you're like, what is it? And I was like, fuck this, yeah. But with all this anxiety and all this insanity that you have

and all the feelings that you have, do you seek a spiritual component? No. And I feel like I should. And I also weirdly feel like my daughters need it. I feel like Birdie would really benefit from. It's hard, right? Isn't it hard to engage after a certain point?

It's like, how do you do that? Like, you know, meditation seems pretty non-denominational and soothing. But like, I don't know. Like, I was never brought up with any concept of God. So like for me to find it now, I think, you know, I'd have to be in pretty big trouble. Yeah. And like, even like Birdie just always has been sort of an unbeliever, which is kind of dope for her. But, you know, like even when our cat died when she was three and our nanny came and got her, my husband and I were like literally a mess when the cat died. There's nothing like losing an animal, you know? I can't take it. I know my cats are old and someone's going to go.

It's like truly the worst. Those are the longest relationships I've had with anybody are those two dumb cats in there. Buddies, those little buddies. Yeah. Well, our nanny came and took Birdie for the day because Mark and I were like, just grief-stricken. We couldn't parent.

It was like a Saturday. And how'd she handle it? Birdie was fine. But then she came home and she was like, Ileana told me that the cat went to cat heaven. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. What did she say exactly? And she's like, yeah, that, you know, there's this place. And when you're good, you get to go there. And when you die and that's like yeah that um you know there's this place and when you're good you

get to go there and when you die and that's where the cat went and then she was this girl was three and a half years old yeah and then she was silent for a minute she goes well i don't think it's real and i was like what you don't she's like yeah i think it's just saying that to make me feel better and i was like oh shit yes that's correct, Bertie. Yes, you're right. Yeah. And it didn't work, apparently. Yeah, it didn't work. She was just like so skeptical. Oh, that's what I say about her. She was she's like the most skeptical human I've ever. She was skeptical, like in her little pram when strangers would come like, oh, look at this beautiful baby.

And she was a beautiful baby. Look at this beautiful baby. And she would just give them a side eye. Like, who the fuck are you? Easy. Yeah. She's always been back. That's what I'm saying.

Like she was that person from month two, you know, or whatever. And she still is that person. That's wild. It's wild. But like, I think a lot of people like given,

you know, what, what I share with you, which is this anxiety experience in this, it's a lot of that has to do with future thinking too, right? Like, well, what's gonna, tomorrow I gotta, oh, do you do that? Like next week I'm gonna, is it like,

do you have that kind of anxiety or is it just free floating? It's free floating. It's all over the place. But yeah, that kind of stuff. Right now I think I'm in the throes of like, I have a big four weeks coming up ahead of me and I'm trying to like remain cool,

but it's staying in the present, but it's real hard. Most of the time, the only time I'm fully present is when I'm talking to someone in here or I'm on the standup stage, you know, stuff like that. You know, other times I'm half,

you know, half in, half out. Acting used to do it to me too. Yeah, it stopped? Well, I stopped acting. Oh, but it lasted all the way through? Yeah, whenever I do it, yeah. Yeah, well, that's good. So you can really get possessed and like you're in.

Yeah. Well, you kind of have to. Yeah. But sadly, what I've learned in my small experience with television is that like, yeah, you can do it when you're acting, but it's usually in three minute chunks. Right. Separated by about an hour or two to reset. That's true.

That's true. Like, I never realized that because i'm kind of a jacked person and like when i started on my show i was writing producing and acting and everything but on glow like i do my scene and then it's like six hours and i'm like holy fuck yeah you're just what do you do a nap yeah i hate the trailers i hate trailers of any kind so i end up just sitting around on the set like Like I'm working there. Yeah. But that's kind of its own exhaustion because there's so much energy flying around on a set. So you're a trailer person? Yeah.

Like on Cougar Town, we had rooms, like we had dressing rooms, which was really nice. Yeah. And so I would always, but I worked a lot on that show because we were, there was so much, we were in, you know, it was like sort of like more a traditional sitcom. So we were like all in every scene kind of. It was all studio? It wasn't, was it? Yeah. you know it was like sort of like more a traditional sitcom so we were like all in every scene right it was all studio it wasn't yeah yeah it was really and we had like a little back lot thing that we shot on right so you actually had your own like like hotel room almost exactly yeah yeah and you could go out in the hall and there'd be a buffet yeah i took off all this weight just to prepare because i know when I start Glow again that I'm just going to get fat.

Like in seven weeks, it's just going to keep going. You love craft services? It's not that I love it. It's just like I'm sitting around and it seems like every couple hours someone comes out and goes like, there's Indian food back there. We're like, hey, it's Mexican today. Hey, there's dim sum in the back. And you're like, what? And you're like, well, this is great.

It's like being on a cruise ship. Yeah, I think it's different for um women actresses i used to just do meal delivery when i was working just so you don't yeah and then my brain i would be like well you're only allowed to eat the things in the box you can't you did it yeah you can't eat anything that doesn't come in that box yeah i mean i i i'm not i'm i'm sort of uh you know, my body image shit is more culturally feminine than it is masculine. Interesting. But I think there are a lot of male anorexic-y kind of guys who think about food all the time. But like for me, like I know that I'll be strong for about three weeks.

But then that one day where you're like, I'm just going to eat half that donut. I'm going to eat half that donut. You know, it's okay. But then you circle around to see. I feel like you and I are the same person. It's really weird. I'm gonna eat half that donut you know it's okay but then you circle around to see why do you I feel like you and I are the same person it's really weird but you circle around to see if I can do three weeks three weeks is my max right for being like real good and I can get real skinny and look real hot yeah and then I'm like that donut fucking calls oh fuck man it's such good

donut yeah the day you do it but do you circle like, I'll eat half of one in the box and then I'll come back around and it's like, fuck, no one ate the other half. And then I'll literally break off another quarter and then eventually eat the whole donut. Yeah, I mean, my thing is like, I do candy. I get like into candy. Which candies?

I'm into gummies. Really? See, I'm not a gummy guy. Oh, I love it. And then, I don't know if you have this from Albuquerque, chips and salsa. Oh, yeah. And like guacamole.

Oh, cool. Like that's like my downfall is truly just nachos. Remind me to give you a jar of this stuff that my stepmom just sent me. Why? I just called her my stepmom, my dad's wife. I mean, I was 35. I like that she's your stepmom. That's cute.

But she, I don't know where they got it, but like she brought me, they were here a while ago. She brought me three jars of this green chili salsa. Love it. But you can really taste the green chili. It's very specific, that New Mexico chili. So anyway, this is weird to say, because yesterday I just decided to Instagram about it because I had Instagram this horrible cartoon that everyone got upset about.

So I'm like, hey, look, chili. You know, there's a picture of my cat. But right after I tweeted it, I went outside and there were two boxes and it was filled with this stuff. And I'm like, that was quick. On a Sunday, they saw my Instagram post. How'd they do it?

It was my dad's wife sent me. I had sent him three days ago for my birthday. So I've got two crates of this shit. It was really just your birthday. 27th, yeah. Oh, happy birthday. Thank you. Anyway, so we're talking about food

and talking about Cougar Town. That was a big show for you. Yeah, it was. How do you end up acting in Arizona? How do you get from there to here? I just always knew. I did all the theater stuff and school theater and some community theater.

Musicals? Yeah, I did musicals. I sang. Yeah. Oh, I sang. Yeah. And I just always knew that's what I wanted to do. And my mom was very adamant that I graduate from high school and do at least two years of college,

was the thing that they always would say, drill into me. from high school and do at least two years of college was the thing that they always would say drill into me and so i applied for colleges in los angeles because i knew that i wanted to start working as soon as i could yeah and i got into lm marymount university and cal arts and i chose lmu and um and just like just i just knew like i just knew that i needed to do it. Right. And the timing was really great because it was 1997, 1998 when I got out here. Yeah. And people were looking for the next teen show because Dawson's Creek, ironic that I then ended up on the show, had just hit. It was so huge that all the networks wanted another teen show.

Yeah. You need kids that are 18 and 19 to play 16 so that they can work all the long hours wanted another teen show. You need like kids that are 18 and 19 to play 16 so that they can work all the long hours. Right, right. So you don't have to have the teacher on set. Yeah, so it wasn't hard for me to get an agent. Like it just was like a perfect, the perfect timing. So I got an agent and then I got Freaks and Geeks.

Like second semester of sophomore year, I did the pilot for Freaks and Geeks. And do you remember your audition and everything? Yeah, I remember it very clearly. And was with Judd? Yeah, Judd, Paul, and Jake Caston. And Allison Jones had brought me in a bunch for another show she had cast called Roswell. And I had made it pretty far on Roswell.

Yeah. But didn't get the part. That went to Katherine Heigl. And so she brought me in straight for those guys. And I was reading the part of Lindsay Weir that Linda Cardellini ended up playing. And Paul, after my reading, was like, oh, busy. This is a we're writing this other part. And will you just take a look at it? It's going to be in the pilot. She's a friend of Lindsay's. And we think you could you should read that.

Take that take that outside for a few minutes and come back in. I was like, okay, cool. Whatever. And I went out and read it five, I mean like five, 10 minutes truthfully. The audition was in the Palisades. And I was living in Inglewood, which meant the 405. And it was like getting to be about 5 p.m.

And all I could think was like, fuck this. I'm gonna have to drive back to LMU. This sucks. So Allison came out and she's like, are you ready? I was like fuck this I'm gonna have to drive back to LMU this sucks so Allison came out and she's like are you ready I was like yes I need to go right now and I went in and did it did like did it one time I think that was it the two scenes and you got Kelly scenes from the pilot yeah it's so wild that show like for its short life has been you know it's so important to so many people I know it's why I didn't watch it till much later like i didn't see it when it was on originally but like because i miss everything yeah yeah but like i ended up watching the whole series like within the last six or seven years

i watched it and i'm like holy shit this is my childhood yeah you know it was such that it is because it was it took place in like the what the 80s or 70s supposed to be 1980 yeah yeah because i graduated high school in 81. So it was like, I know all of these people. You're Jason Segel. A little bit. Yeah, I bet you are. Yeah, a little. I kind of know him now. He's an intense guy. Yeah, he and I

lost touch, but that's alright. He's very positive these days. That's good. Maybe we can get back in touch. I don't know. We lost touch on purpose? I don't know. Yeah, we just had some weirdness. It's fine. It's all fine. That's been. Maybe we can get back in touch. I don't know. Wait, we lost touch on purpose? I don't know. Like, yeah, we just had some weirdness. It's fine. It's all fine. I always, like, that's been my one sort of weirdly,

because as a fan primarily of people who do things with, like, every time I have actors in here, I'm always sort of like, so you guys, you still hang out? And 90% of the time, like, no, I don't talk to them. I mean, it's interesting, though, Mark. I'm still friends with, like, almost all of the women that i've worked with yeah you know like i've like maintained friendships like i've always left every acting job with like a really close where are you and

katie holmes at right now she's great well michelle i took michelle from that show yeah yeah your relationship seems like i mean you know, I have friends that I've had for years, but like, I don't see them, you know, and I really, you know, most of them live in other places and I don't stay in touch with people. Well, I'm not, you know, I have a lot of people I know, but I don't take time to spend time with people. So I was looking at that vulture piece of that sort of tracked your relationship and it's just like all the pictures.

And I was just like, it's nice. That's really funny it is nice but it it does take work like it requires work i mean you know i am like i think it's a i don't know if it's like my astrological sign or whatever but i am a keeper like i am a collector and a keeper and Loyal. Yeah. And I like make it a point, you know. And I've had moments where I've fucked up. Like I did a kind of shitty thing to like a good friend of mine from high school. Yeah. A couple weeks or not a couple months ago. And I had to like own it and be like, I'm sorry I flaked on you.

Like. Yeah. Whatever. That must be tricky, too, because there are those people from that part of your life where you're like well you're just big time now and right there's that whole other element of yeah yeah that's tricky but um you worked it out yeah we worked it out by the way you know that liz flay hive yeah do you know that she and i've known each other since i was in high school no because her now husband and i went to high school. Jeff? Yeah, we went to high school together.

In Arizona. And his little brother and I were, he was my boyfriend. Liz Fahy's husband's brother was your boyfriend in high school. Yeah, and so she dated Jeff when they were in college and I was in high school. And I like, I mean, met her then, like knew her then. That's so wild. Isn't that crazy? Well, it's sort of fascinating because of your career that like, you know, all these people that that you've worked because you've worked in movies and television since you were what 18 or 19 yeah

that you kind of grew up with this whole crew yeah and on some level i know you can't think about it every day but it must be kind of strangely and sadly interesting to see how everybody ended up like you know they're wild because some of the people you came up with are fucking bonafide superstars yeah huge and some of them have fallen from grace and some of them have just kind of drifted away yeah and like yeah i mean i i guess like you know as an outsider my thought is like what happened to that guy and you're like what do you you don't know right people go on with their lives it's a tough business it's a tough fucking business but even with me sometimes like i mean i read comments was like oh i used to love her what happened to her it's like dude i'm

still here what are you talking about because no one like knows where to watch anything anymore well that's the truth i know what even is television i just did 90 episodes of a show that no one saw exactly yeah that's really funny yeah that is true but i have to assume like during like after like during dawson's creek was that like the biggest visibility you had when you were younger was it dawson's creek or did it was it cougar town or when did it sort of like when were you sort of like hey there's that girl no i would say cougar town sort of more so than dawson's creek i had i was added to the cast the last two years of dawson's creek those kids were already like astronomical superstars they had been on the cover of rolling stone and all that shit there's a couple of them that are two years of Dawson's Creek, those kids were already like astronomical superstars.

They had been on the cover of Rolling Stone and all that shit had happened. There's a couple of them that are like, where are they at? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it's interesting. It's interesting. And it was interesting for me walking into that show

coming off of Freaks and Geeks, which is like we all had felt like we were doing such a cool, awesome thing. We really did, even at that time. And I know that that show has lived on, but we really did feel in the moment, like this is special. And then, and it was just like crickets,

like no one in the industry fucking cared. None of us could get a fucking job after, except for Franco, who was like, got cast as James Dean. So it seemed like that was like a thing. And, but you know, like Seth developed that show with Judd undeclared and like put Seagal on it as like a recurring part what about Party Down wasn't that the next sort of incarnation of Freaks

and Geeks no or was there somebody in it that was Lizzie Kaplan okay that sorry did you read the chapter in my book where I was told I was too fat to be that part no why don't you tell me about it it was real fucking depressing well just interesting that you brought it up um that you brought that show in particular up but right after i had birdie i was really struggling and i had um but you and lizzie were friends lizzie and i are good yeah lizzie's birdie's godmother yeah um but she actually is really close with my husband that's how we she and i were on freaks and geek i mean she was on freaks and geeks she did two episodes of freaks and geeks but she wasn't martin on party down too martin was on pretty okay that's right you're right you're right you're correct all right go

ahead um but anyway i had birdie financially we were like in a fucking hole because i had like made a bad real estate thing and like couldn't sell my house and it was a disaster we were so broke i needed to get a job i just had this baby i was like 40 pounds overweight it was a nightmare and i went in for party down it was like gonna be picked up they were gonna do 13 episodes or whatever rob thomas and read with adam scott and they were like you're our girl we're so excited this is amazing i also loved that i was kind of chubby because and i was like, you're our girl. We're so excited. This is amazing. I also loved that I was kind of chubby and I was like losing weight because like, you know how like those improv actors

like move here from Chicago and then within a year they're like skinny and had a nose job and then they're like on SNL. You know what I mean? I just felt like as a character arc on a show about people who are cater waiters trying to make it in this business

and like doing, like I was just like, that's the reality like the people move here from other cities and then they're like oh fuck like i was a big fish in that other right city and now i have to like conform and figure it the fuck out so anyway we had like they were on board with that whatever and then the network it just came the network oh that was your character that you pitched that like you know i just moved here um well they knew that i was like overweight from the baby right that rob and and also adam but you know like rob thomas like he knew and he had just had a kid and whatever and they were like we're right like you're who we want for the show that's it it's fine i don't we don't care about your weight. It's fine. And then stars was like, we care about her weight. Oh.

And yeah. And my agent called me and I, I mean, I remember it so clearly. I was breastfeeding my kid. I was breastfeeding Birdie. And she was like, biz, I have terrible news. It's not going to go our way. And it's the weight and the network can't see past it. The one moment that an agent's honest, it has to be about that. I was like in, I'm kind of like into it. I'm moment that an agent's honest, it has to be about that. I was like in,

I'm kind of like into it. I'm into that. She was honest with me. And, um, and then Rob Thomas also like wrote me an email that was really kind and is actually in the book. I asked him,

I emailed him whenever I was publishing the book and I asked for his permission and he, he allowed me to put the email that he wrote in the book. But it was a really, really fucking disheartening moment in my career. Like among, I mean, many moments of like, oh, fuck this. But it sucked.

Yeah. And what turned around eventually to get you out of the hole and stuff? I got Cougar Town. Oh, good. Like a few months later. Acting's hard, man. Acting's the worst.

And Bill Lawrence is married to an actress, Krista Miller. And I remember I was so insecure few months a few months later and acting's hard man acting's the worst and bill lawrence you know is married to an actress krista miller and i remember i was so insecure about my weight going into like the network test and i said something to him about i was like i just want you to know i was wearing like 17 pairs of spanx and like you know what i mean like i was like trying so fucking hard because i still was like a little bit up like i wasn't back to like fighting yeah my fighting weight and uh and i said something to him about it and he's like no one no one cares busy what are you talking about yeah i don't even i don't even see it just stop it's fine this isn't that part this isn't

that this isn't that yeah we got corny cocks over here we're fine it's cool if you're chubby i'll tell you man it's like it's the acting thing, the waiting because you're so much at the disposal of other people's sort of, you know, flip opinions. And, you know, like it could it could be one person in a room saying, like, I don't like your hands and you're fucking out. That's it. It's like it's so fucked up. It's crazy. And being on the other side of it, like, you know, even when my husband was doing his movie and casting his movie and like hearing the things that fucking. Which one? He just, I feel pretty.

That he directed that? Yeah. With his longtime partner, Abby. Yeah. You were so good in that movie. And you know what the weird thing about that movie is, is that, look, I know Amy for a long time. Yeah.

And I, you know, it got such, you know, pre-press for that thing was so brutal for it. And you know what? I don't believe it. Like I, it was so weird because I just like two, three weeks ago I was on a plane. And like, I like. That's now everyone's seeing it now. But I like Amy a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I always have. And I watched it and like, she did such a great job. She's great in the movie. And like, who wrote it? Did your husband? Yeah, he wrote it with his writing partner. That was really an amazing thing he did because the conceit of it's ridiculous. Yeah.

But it's performed so humanly. Yeah. That you're willing to accept it. And I'm not an easy guy to do that with. Like, you know, this sort of magic sort of genie hit her head shit. Right, right, right, right. But like once they start acting it and he didn't go for any broad comedy that I was sort of like, wow. I mean, they're really doing this.

And I emailed Amy like the next day early in the morning. I just emailed, you were amazing in that movie. And she goes, what a nice email to wake up to. Aw. Because she takes so much shit. Yeah, so much shit. But she acted the fuck out of that thing. She is so fucking good

in that movie. It's crazy. I know. And you were so good. Thanks. The friends were so good. Thanks. I mean,

I was happy to see you, but the comedy was so human based. Yeah, they wanted it to be very grounded. Yeah, and it was like,

it was a real kind of marvel like that because, you know, I think outside of the feminist backlash of the movie before it came out. It was a feminist backlash to a fucking trailer. Right. Like the dumbest thing of all time.

That on top of this sort of conceit of it, like, you know, probably alienated audiences. But I thought, and Michelle. It's so good. What the fuck? It's amazing. She's just sort of like emoti kind of raw nerve of an actress and she just does this full-on bit she just builds this fucking wacko character but still believable yeah I feel like also truly because Mark and Abby

directed it is part I mean that's like I think that's a huge reason why Michelle was like willing to go there and do that. Her comedy chops were so like, so surprising. I know, it's really funny. Well, also like, I mean, I said this in the Vanity Fair article about her, I think, I don't know. Yeah. But like, it's always, you know,

she gets pegged as this thing a lot of times, but like, I know her as very goofy and silly and like, we're able to have a lot of, you know, moments where it's not like us crying. No, of course. Of course. I just think she's. She just like doesn't put that out there professionally a lot. But I think she's just one of those people as an actress, she can go pretty fucking deep.

She can go so deep. And very transformative. She's the rawest nerve. Yeah. Yeah. And there's like very few people that can, you know,. She can go so deep. And very transformative. She's the rawest nerve. Yeah. Yeah. And there's like very few people that can, you know,

really kind of keep doing that. I know. Like, and Casey's another one and the two of them in that movie, that was fucking nuts. Oh God, that scene.

That fucking scene. Oh, where they meet each other? Yeah. Oh, too much. It's too much. I was just like sobbing hysterically

watching that. I'm getting choked up thinking about it now it's really intense yeah it is it is but um back to you yep uh that was kind about you and your husband performance but like i and also i thought you're great in vice principals i mean that's a funny role i mean i think, you know, you're kind of, you're one of those people that you're kind of, you're, I don't know if it's a sort of like swagger, you know, that there's a, but no, there's a confidence to the characters you play. And it's like, it reads as human because, you know, like a lot of it's coming from sort of weird insecurity.

Yeah, of course. Right. But that role seemed, that must have been a blast to do. It was so fun. Well, basically what happened was that post Cougar Town, I was like, what the fuck am I going to do? Do I just like jump on another network show and try to like make a buck or whatever? And then I got a call from my TV agent and he's like, um, Danny McBride's doing this

new show for HBO with David Gordon Green and Jody Hill. We don't know what it is, but like, we don't even know what the part is. No one knows. Like they just have these sides that you have to audition. and Jody Hill. We don't know what it is, but like, we don't even know what the part is. No one knows. Like, they just have these sides that you have to audition and like, you know,

I'm at a place like network television wise where like, I don't have to audition for stuff, you know, which is nice. Yeah.

At this point, fucking 20 years later, hey, how you doing? But you'd have to go in and audition for those guys and I don't know. We don't know what it is.

I was like, are you kidding me? Danny McBride? Yes. David Gordon Green? Jody Hill? Fuck yes. It'd be hilarious and weird.

I'll go audition for those guys. Yeah. And I went in like truly every actress I know, we all went in for that show. Yeah. And none of us knew what it was. Yeah. We had no clue. I think if they even told you what it was, it'd be hard to wrap your head around.

Yeah, I think if they even told you what it was, it'd be hard to wrap your head around. Yeah, I think so too. And like, and then also it was a little bit like, I kind of don't care like how big the part is or what the, like, I just want to work. I just wanted to work with interesting people and with those guys have such a vision. And Danny, I have to say, and then we became really tight,

like really close friends. And he is truly one of my favorite people that I've ever worked with and yeah and like doesn't get the credit that I think he deserves for being kind of like a visionary in terms of the things that he like comedy the comedy that he does and that it's like truly subversive. And like people just think he is that guy. They think that he's like some fucking redneck. No, he's like a sweetheart. He's a sweetheart, but he's also like turning it on its head.

And he like is able to do these shows where the people who sort of identify as that, you know, Kenny Powers or his character and vice principals, like also enjoy it and then maybe are like a little bit confused by what's happening. Fucking with their wires. Yeah, exactly. And I think that people, I don't know. I feel like he doesn't get the credit. Well, yeah, because the humanity he finds in these like completely sort of like overcompensating men. It's kind of bonkers. It's bonkers because, you know, you can, the only reason they're appealing

is you can feel the insecurity in every action. Like he's got that weird gif that, I think Carell has it too, and Gervais when he acts, where you're like, these guys are horrible, but like, they're so sad. It is so weird. So, so sad and desperate.

Yeah. And then also like the fact that like, Danny wrote that show and it came out like right before trump was elected but like it was almost like he fucking knew what was about to happen i don't know like i felt like it was just i don't know yeah i feel like that show's great walton coggins is like truly i mean what the fuck one of the greatest actors it's crazy also an amazing person yeah you don't have to be a fucking asshole to be like a truly awesome actor and performer I think a lot of them I I find that I don't talk to that many

actors but I don't find them yeah usually they're not assholes you you know, at worst they're boars. Okay. But you haven't been on sets with them as a woman. No, no, no. I just mean that sometimes they, for whatever reason, like John C. Reilly told me, he's like, I don't want to talk about myself. So like they are aware, like some of the guys that I've met and talked to,

a lot of them like have a lot of space, you know, that they don't like talking about themselves. So I'm sure they're nice people right I'm saying it's part of their thing it's like what you know I do my job right you know what I mean you know I don't know you but you know that kind of thing right yeah I just know from personal experience from being on sets for so long with so many different types of men and yeah how they behave and like what they're yeah to get away with. Right.

I bet from like from 19 years old, you've been seeing it. Yeah. Bad? Yeah, I think so. Maybe the tide's changing though a little bit. Maybe like the message is getting received that like bad behavior is no longer going to be rewarded or just, or maybe not even rewarded. Like we're not going to turn a blind eye anymore.

Right. And do you have like a lot of things that you just don't talk about? What do you mean? In terms of experiences with these people that you're sort of like, you know, like, well, that was sort of dicey, but you know, I'm going to let that go.

I mean, I think so. I mean, I put some stuff in the book, which I was just like, why the fuck not? But yeah, but then I guess, I don't know. I think that there's a thing that's happening now where we're all sort of aware and we're like, okay, like we're look, I'm looking at you, dude. I think that the thing, what I'm saying with Walton is that he's like a very serious actor. He's like very serious about the job and is really good at it and doesn't build

any other bullshit around it to make himself feel bigger or confident or like you know what I mean so frequently like the I don't know the dudes are just like like there's it's so aggro and like they feel like they have to like be dicks to people on set or like I'm in my zone like I can't look at you right now can you you know what I'm sorry my zone. Like, I can't look at you right now. Can you, you know what? I'm sorry. Can you just please not? Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like that kind of fucking. Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand. Extreme male. Yeah. Vibes.

Well, just that entitled diva behavior on, you know, on behalf of anybody I never quite got. Me neither. Even the excess of it. Like, you know, I'm the guy now. So like, I'm going to have these girls coming into the trailer. Bring. I need this in my trailer. A full bar, you know, a jacuzzi.

Like I, I don't, I don't understand that shit. I want to see your writer. My writer is almonds. You want almonds? Almonds and Diet Pepsi. I don't. Diet Pepsi. Do you, are you worried about drinking Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi?

I don't do it during. I just find that there's something about Diet Pepsi when I'm doing a show, when I'm doing standup. It's sort of like my Red Bull. find that there's something about Diet Pepsi when I'm doing a show, when I'm doing stand-up. It's sort of like my Red Bull. Okay, okay, okay. It's different than Diet Coke. Somehow or another when I- You just get nervous about that.

Aspartame? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Well, I don't drink it every day. Who the hell knows? I read like one article seven years ago.

Yeah, I know that one. Yeah, where it's like, it's got the same components as formaldehyde and you're going to lose your, your, your brain's going to rot. Yeah. Yeah. Game Sacks sent me a bunch of pictures. He was one of the producers on Freaks and Geeks and he just sent me a bunch of pictures from that time. And almost, in almost every one, I'm holding a Diet Coke.

Every single one. And then the fear set in. Yeah. I guess I read that article and never again. Yeah. I know that whole thing. Then there was a political component to it that aspartame was discovered by Donald Rumsfeld. Yeah.

I know that. Yeah. I know that one. You're like, but give me my fucking Diet Pepsi for life too. Well, that's ultimately the decision you make. You know, it's sort of like, all right, that all may be true. But maybe I'm not susceptible to that. Maybe not. So how are you preparing for busy tonight?

Well, we've been in the room now for a couple of weeks. And before that that i was like working every day hiring people meeting with people figuring shit out getting it all put together taking meetings meetings meetings are you what's the format fun it's a well it's a half hour four nights a week um you know three act structure so first act yeah one guest per show um for one segment yeah probably like two so like the first half of the first segment will be um like what we're kind of loosely calling a non-alog i'm not gonna do i'm not a stand-up but i'm also a person that loves to talk yeah i'm not gonna do like a tradition hard joke monologue vibe but we are gonna like go over the day's

events and things that we want to chat about yeah and then we'll bring out the guest and he or she will come out and we'll have a little catch up with friends i'm not going to do like um the traditional pre-interview tell me about your trip to belize what happened with the sloth tell me you know exactly what happened yeah i you know i don't know that just doesn't interest. I'd like to know what happens with the sloth. I mean, it was wild. So, and so,

and then we'll go to a commercial. We'll come back hopefully with the guests still if the guest has to split because they're very important and their time is valuable. They got to go down the hall

and do a podcast. Then, then we'll do like a tape, pre-taped segment. If we have time with the guests, maybe we'll get to do a pre-taped segment. If we have time with the guests, maybe we'll get to do a pre-taped segment earlier in the day with them.

That's something we can throw to you. So it's a talk show. It's a fucking talk show. Straight up. It's not gonna, no panel, just, you know. No panel. Oh, good. I didn't want a panel.

Well, I mean, I think you're gonna be great at it. Thanks, Mark. Yeah, I mean, it's exciting because you're a curious, interested person. You have ideas and opinions and you're a good conversationalist. All those things. Yeah.

And I wish you the best of luck with that. Oh, thank you. And the book, which is great. Thanks. The two pieces I read of it. You don't have to read the rest. No, no. It was sitting there and I'm like, I got to read that.

But I had a million things going on and I thought like- It was your birthday. It was my birthday. But also, I do believe, there's only been a couple times where I've read the books about people who I was talking to one of them was Kim Gordon oh fucking best book ever yeah but like she's not that candid and she's not a big talker that's true so like and you know I knew a little bit about her but I read her book because I wanted to at least know like in conversation where you know we could go right you know like so I had some place to go usually I just like to have a

conversation if people have stories they'll tell me the story right with her I was like thank god I read the book because like I was able to draw her out that makes so much sense I've like hung out with Kim a little bit yeah which is like the joy of my life no she's great but um but yeah that yeah that tracks for me thank you i did not not read your book out of like what the fuck is this i read i didn't read it because like i don't want to lead busy phillips yeah why would you oh yeah it turns out that was a good instinct on my on my part you're the right call yeah well uh it was great talking to you it was so nice to talk to you, Mark. Wasn't that fun? Wasn't that fun?

Yes. Great. As I mentioned before, Busy's book, This Will Only Hurt a Little, comes out tomorrow. The new show, Busy Tonight,

premieres October 28th on E! Go get your copy of Waiting for the Punch wherever you get books, or you can get it, as I said earlier, you can go to markmarronbook.com or you can go to wtfpod.com and click on the book link or just go to a good old-fashioned bookstore. Okay? Okay. Did we cover it?

I'm going to try to play. I need to practice. I need to practice. Boomer lives! Cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

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