WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 963 - Zoe Kazan

Episode Date: October 29, 2018

Zoe Kazan doesn't think much about the concept of "Hollywood royalty." Yes, her parents are in show business, but she still had to run the gauntlet of failed auditions and odd jobs. Yes, her grandfather's body of work is legendary, but she had a relationship with him that was completely removed from his career. Zoe talks with Marc about paving her own way, as well as working with the Coen Brothers, enjoying the unexpected success of The Big Sick, and collaborating with her partner Paul Dano on their new film Wildlife. This episode is sponsored by Screen Dive from 20th Century Fox, SimpliSafe, and Amazon Music. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck buddies? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. I am still in New York City, Midtown.

Not the greatest part of the city, really. A lot of stuff here, but it's odd that when i lived in this city i i don't know that i spent any time here almost ever occasionally go to the park occasionally go to the carnegie deli which is now just a empty awning around the corner and i'm just struggling with a certain amount of isolation it's an odd thing i i guess i can talk about that in a minute. It's been a pretty gnarly week last week, a pretty fucking horrendous week last week. With no real relief in sight, with a completely morally bankrupt president who does not know how to address nor care to address, and I think might even not so secretly support the actions that took place last week horrible attempted bombings executions of african-americans

a massacre of jews in our country and i i know that this stuff has been talked about a lot, but it's hard if you're a decent person with at least a small, even just a fragment of a moral compass and a conscience and some capacity for empathy and some capacity for seeing how this affects people and feeling horrible for what's happening. feeling horrible for what's happening, you know, it's hard to not be living in it with a certain amount of heartbreak and horror and fear. And how do you sort of manage that? What do you do as everything just gets plowed under and sort of a tsunami of information and mind-fuckedness? But I think the saddest part and the most horrible part outside of the deaths themselves and the terrorism is that wondering

just how many people in this country think what's happened is tremendous Whatever the case was with that lunatic who sent those bombs, how many people in this country think this is tremendous? This is the country going in the right direction. How many people in this country, when they see African Americans executed, think this is terrific? This is exactly the direction we should be going. How many people in the country, when they see a slaughter of Jews at a bris, at a synagogue, think like, this is it. This is the turning. Finally, finally, this country is heading in

the right direction. how many of those are there out there i think about it a lot it's horrifying and i don't mean to start the monday off in a dark way but i have to address it and i was in new york city here working uh on the Joker movie. The day that the bomb was found at Robert De Niro's restaurant, Robert De Niro's building, that was the day we were doing our scene together. So I'm heading into the city with the Teamster and we don't know what's going to happen.

Is Robert De Niro going to show up? Does he have a lot of stuff to deal with was anybody hurt what's happening and I got there and uh and he was there spent a lot of time on the phone uh dealing with it what I imagine was uh you know, how to handle a situation. Maybe he had employees that were scared. I don't know. I didn't talk to him about that, but he showed up for work, and he was resolute and strong. He wasn't afraid.

For me, it seemed like an awkward time to be meeting him and be working with him. But he was pretty unfazed. And we talked about it a bit. I'm reluctant to sort of talk about whatever conversations we had, almost about anything, because I know there are sort of kind of parasitical outlets that want to paraphrase things. So I don't want to do any paraphrasing myself and fuel a fire.

But we did have some other conversations a bit. I didn't know. The scene that I'm doing is relatively tight. But we had to shoot it a lot. And we had to sort of be with each other in the hallway in between takes. And we talked a bit about movies. We talked a bit about Ray Liotta. We talked a bit about the King of Comedy.

He's a very sweet guy, very soft-spoken guy. But I was just very sort of amazed at his lack of fear in the face of what he had to deal with that morning and his professionalism but on top of that though yeah that just the fact that uh he was not it it did not uh uh from what i could tell i can't speak for him but he seemed just the resolve in terms of of he just was not shaken so it's fucked up it's fucked up and and even more frightening as we converge on this election. So just I don't know where you are or what you're thinking in terms of this vote, but I got to mail my ballot in tomorrow. I'm in California.

And this is one of those situations where you think your state government is solid or that you don't have to engage. It's clear that you have to engage and you have to vote because the falconer can't see the falcon and then some strange beast is slouching towards Bethlehem and something needs to give and if it doesn't during this uh this midterm i i don't even know what's going to happen to the reality of this country or certainly what's going to happen to the spirit of uh trying to correct things because this is a big mind fuck for everybody.

Anyway, I'll lighten up a little bit. You know, I had a guest on not long ago named Aaron Draplin. He's a designer, a graphic designer, sort of a genius, sort of a compulsive genius,

a man fascinated with the art of the logo and he's an incredible artist in his own right. Wrote an amazing book. We had a lovely interview. And we asked Aaron to do a special edition WTF shirt for us. And he did an amazing one.

I put the picture on Twitter and Instagram so you can see what it looks like. And people who come to my show at the Beacon on November 10th here in New York City will have a first crack at it. That's the first place it's going to be on sale. So you Beacon people will be the first ones to wear it. Then afterwards, we'll have it for sale in the merch store so you can get them before the holiday. It's, I, you know, Draplin's amazing

because he has an appreciation of graphic design, of logo art, of the history of it, that it just informs everything he does. It's a great shirt. So there's that i didn't mention today that i had zoe kazan on she's uh got a film that she co-wrote with paul dano her partner and uh they're not married but they're together uh and he directed it and it's now playing in select cities it's called wildlife we'll talk to her in a few minutes

i had a nice conversation with her i I enjoyed the movie. I watched it very intently. I like Paul Dano. I've talked to him before. So that's coming up. I guess I should talk a little bit about New York if I could, because I'm continuing feeling a bit alienated from it. And I guess I should, outside of the politics of the week and the slaughter and blood letting of the week and the fucking horrendous terrorism that's happening in our country. I should say that my experience on the Joker was insanely exciting. Like I said, it's not a huge part. It's not a huge scene even, but to engage as an actor with Robert De Niro and with Joaquin Phoenix was pretty amazing. I didn't really talk to Joaquin Phoenix.

He seems to be pretty submerged in his work, but it was sort of a baptism into movie making that I had not, you know, I had a little part in Almost Famous a million years ago, and I've done a couple little movies, but this was, you know, this was big time, and I was hoping I would do good work, and I think I did all right.

It was funny because when we were doing the scene, De Niro went to the director and then the director comes to me and there was this moment where it's like, you know, he said, you're a little big, a little big at the end there. So I had to make adjustments, did a little acting,

but it was a great experience. I think it's going to be a pretty wild movie. It's definitely kind of hallucinatory to be on a film set that is a different world for 12, 13 hours a day. Anyway, that being said, to sort of move into more about New York that I was feeling the other day, which was nostalgia and what nostalgia means in the sort of darkness at the edge of it. I used to always say that Los Angeles is horrible because it's a horrible place to feel that you can feel very alone there and isolated. But I think New York,

it's worse if you feel isolated in New York, you know, because I'm here, I'm stuck in Midtown, I'm in a hotel. There are things I want to do. There's always things. That's the other part about being in Manhattan is sort of the part of your brain is sort of like, geez, New York City. I should be out doing something. I should be out. Man, there's a million things going on there. So I got what am I?

How come I'm not doing something? That feeling is kind of a non-nerving because that goes right to like everyone else is doing something but me. And then and then that goes to like I'm missing everything. And that goes to like I'm a fucking fucking loser look at me sitting here doing nothing but those are old patterns but i do think that being isolated in a city that's filled with people is definitely a worse feeling than being isolated in a city where you don't see anybody around. Because when you're in your own head among people, that's a type of loneliness

that really kind of pounds at you because they're all right there. Everyone's right there. We're all people. Why can't I feel connected to people? But when you're out in LA and you're sitting alone in your house, you're like, well, there's nobody around, so fuck it.

It's different. And I think you can ground yourself in it a little differently. But I'm just sort of struggling with these feelings. And I need to go down. I need to, like, I should go down the cellar, get a couple sets in here and there. But I just haven't, I haven't wanted to. And then I start to think about, you know, what the place used to be.

I start thinking about how it was when Patrice O'Neill was around, when Greg Giraldo was around. And, you know, what's going on down there now. They changed the whole layout of the place. I don't know. Like, Geraldo was around, and what's going on down there now? They changed the whole layout of the place. I don't know. I just have to sit with the fact that it's okay to just be in the hotel room, do my work, talk to you from the mic, do a little reading, fester about my diet, and walk around here, go shopping for almond milk and fruit. And that's okay. That's not a bad afternoon and also that i'm an old middle-aged man now i don't need to run around what am i going to run around and do

you know what's interesting is that i watched my buddy steve brill directed the the new adam sandler special on netflix and look i years ago, Sandler and I had a problem. I saw him recently at an event and he was nice to me. I'd love to talk to him, but I was never, I was a little older to be grabbed by the Sandler thing. I don't know if I would have been grabbed by the Sandler thing, but certainly I've known him and certainly I've liked some of the work he's done.

But I'll tell you this standup special, it's a very touching, very personal, and oddly very Sandler special. And the effect of it, I watched the whole thing and I was moved and it was a great show. He's somehow able to maintain what makes him Sandler from when you know you were a kid if you grew up with him but also to be mature and and and share the life he's living now and and write some clever songs and there's a joke in there about his dad that killed me I actually got I squirted out a few tears I laughed a few times I enjoyed it I'm just saying that because I don't know what some of you people think I am,

and I think I've judged Adam harshly when I was younger and more angry, but I thought the special was great, and this isn't even a paid ad. Huh? What do you think of that? I'm just saying a fellow comedian who I haven't seen do stand-up in a long time, if ever really, for a whole hour, who stand up in a long time, if ever really, for a whole hour, did a great stand-up special. That's that. Why is it so hard for me just to say that? Why? Why do I got to be that? Why is it so hard? Huh? So Zoe Kazan is here and not here. Well, I did record it at home, but I watched the film Wildlife and I watched it very intently and and I enjoyed it, and I thought it was beautifully shot and beautifully executed. She co-wrote the film with Paul Dano. He directed it, and it's now playing in select cities.

And this is my conversation with her about her. Okay? All right. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. Okay? Alright. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel.

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in Albuquerque I like Albuquerque. I like Albuquerque. You do? Yeah. But I've only spent like, you know, two weeks there shooting something. You had to go there for the shooting. Exactly.

It's been 10 years. 10 years since you've been to Albuquerque to shoot things? It seems like everyone shoots there all the time. What did you shoot there? I shot in Santa Fe recently, but... That's a little swankier. Yeah, I shot a movie called In the Valley of Allah. Oh, yeah. Who was in that movie?

Charlize Theron. Yeah. That was like a big movie, wasn't it? I don't know. I had a little part in it. Oh, it was early on? Yeah. It was one of those, hey, hi.

Yeah. Okay, I'm going to go now part. Except when you're a girl, one of those, hey, hi. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to go now part. Except like when you're a girl, it's like, hey, hi, I'm going to be naked and now you're going to kill me parts. It was one of those? Yeah, one of those. That was what was in the breakdown? Yeah.

Naked gets killed. Yeah. It says must be okay with nudity on like the first 20 things that I did. Yeah. Oh, I had to do that with Glo. It was only right. Right. Because all the women had to sign them. What am I going to be like? No. So I signed one. And I showed. Yeah. Oh, I had to do that with Gwela. It was only right. Right? Because all the women had to sign them

and what am I going to be like? No. So I signed one and I showed my butt. In what scene? It was in the first season. You know, when I walked to the door

after I swept with Kate Nash. Oh, right. And there's my butt and I used my own butt. How did you feel about that? It's all right. You know, I don't know how it would have felt

if it was my front. Like, you know, because I guess what you have to take in mind is like this is going to live forever as a meme or on a thing it's going to be always available right yes i know your buddy betty has a lot of those oh yeah betty and i both you do too and how do you feel about that not good not good not good to have you new things no it doesn't feel good it doesn't feel good and like when you're um then like trying to make deals yeah and they're like two inches of her butt crack you know or like six you know six inches of six frames of side boob or something and you're like that's in your deal

yeah like that's yeah that's crazy yep and what in what in in that's a negotiating point because you're like no she doesn't want to do nudity how about a little just a little bit yeah yeah so then you end up with inches of butt crack oh and they actually measure it i have no idea inches of butt crack. Oh, and they actually measure it? I have no idea. Or is that just a general, because you've never been on a set,

and they're like, can we just get the ass measurer out? No, but then what ends up happening is that on set someone goes like, you know, for the shot it would be better. Right. Yeah, they kind of weasel. Yeah. But did you grow up out here?

I did. I grew up in Venice Beach. Venice Beach. So when I watch Glow, it looks very familiar to me. Yeah. Cause like, okay. So I was born in 83. Oh, right. So like, those are your earliest memories for women wearing that kind of stuff on the beach. Yeah. And, and men looking just like you did. Sure, just like me, acting like me. Totally. Yeah. It's like every single one of my dad's friends. I know.

I see. I think it's sort of nice about my character, about Sam Sylvia. He does catch a break from the ladies, even given the climate we're living in. Because he reminds them of people that they knew from their dad yeah like my pediatrician oh boy well i don't think sam's that terrible no i don't either yeah i mean it in a good way no no i know he's he's a little old school little sexist but he's he's you know he breaks down sure yeah you play it really well thank you very much that's very nice of you to say i love it and you're you're you're like best pals with uh betty yeah betty and i go way back she's one nice of you to say. I love it. And you're like best pals with Betty?

Yeah, Betty and I go way back. She's one of my, you know, sister friends. It took me a while. Like the first season, I was just scared of her. Really? Yeah, I was like, I don't know even how to talk to that person. And I don't usually have that problem. Really?

Well, I just was sort of like, she's intense. But then second season, Betty and I were better. It was good. I love her. I think she's great. But then second season, Betty and I were better. It was good. I love her. I think she's great. Yeah, me too. I first met Betty when she was at the Williamstown Theater Festival with some friends of mine. Where's that?

Williamstown? Williamstown, Massachusetts. Okay, yeah. I wasn't sure. And I remember seeing her from far away and thinking she looked really confident. And then, you know, getting to know her and realizing that she had a lot of work to do on that front. On the confidence front. And now she's like soaring. It's beautiful.

What's interesting to me in talking about GLOW, and I don't know if I've said it publicly, is that, you know, Allison came up here. And she's very much a product of this business. Right. And Betty's like New York theater. So you get these two completely different approaches in a way. Yeah. And experience with acting. Right.

That are kind of going head to head. Yeah. And it's pretty cool. And I have that in common. We both came up in the theater. So it's one of the things that, like, you know, we met probably in audition rooms long before we became friends. So it's one of the things that like, you know, we met probably in audition rooms long before we became friends. So how does it work? So you grew up in Venice Beach and you have

this, you have the sister that, um, I think I met once Maya, Maya who lived, uh, by Sarah, my girlfriend, Sarah, the painter, and that's it. Just one sister, just the two of us. Yeah. And you grew up in show business, yeah sort of i don't know what that's like is that like but like in the sense it's sort of like it's just what your parents did exactly and also i grew up with like screenwriter parents so i grew up with two people who are like sitting at home hunched in front of their computers did they write together yeah they wrote they wrote two movies they wrote two movies together one of which got made this movie this children's movie matildailda, they wrote together.

And then they've both written a bunch separately. They're working screenwriters. Both of them. Yep. They're writing right now? Yep. As we speak? Well, not as we speak.

No, but I mean, do you know what they're working on? Do they talk to you about it? Yeah, sure. My mom talks to me about it more than my dad. My dad's more secretive. Oh, really? Yeah. They have separate writing rooms?

Yeah. But you also are a sort of a legacy, right? Right. My grandpa is a director. Your grandpa is a director, was a director? Was a director. Elia? Elia. Elia Kazan.

Yeah, that's right. I know his movie. I didn't know how to pronounce his first name. There you go. You did really good. No, I didn't. I did it wrong and you corrected me. Oh, that's right. I know his movie. I don't know how to pronounce his first name. There you go. You did really good. No, I didn't. I did it wrong and you corrected me. Oh, that's okay. No, I'm okay.

But did you know him? Yeah, he died when I was 20. Oh, and was he pretty cognizant all to the end? Yeah, totally. You know, I feel like I got the best of him as a grandfather sort of because he was like 75 when I was born. So he was like ready to be a grandparent. Um, was he retired completely? He was sort of retired. He didn't make any movies

or direct any plays after I was born, but he wrote, he wrote his autobiography after I was born and was still writing until he died. Did you read his autobiography? Never, never did. Huh? until he died. Did you read his autobiography? Never. Never did? Mm-mm. Huh.

Yeah, I skimmed through it. Yeah. Like, actually, just in the last year, and was like, I never need to read this. Why? You just didn't want to know all that stuff? Like, there are certain things as a granddaughter you don't need to know about your grandfather. Yeah, there's a lot, I think, about his sex life in it.

But also, it's like, you know, you have a personal experience with someone, and then the world has an experience of them. And I feel like there's some part of me that just wants to protect my own experience of him. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. But like coming up when you were a kid, like when you started to sort of realize who he was, did you go watch his movies? Did they inform you in any way?

I didn't know that he was a director until I was like 12. I knew he was like a powerful person because the way people treated him. But I didn't really know what he did and no one ever talked to me about it. Well, you know, growing up in LA in la like every kid i knew their parents were basically in the industry you know like um why'd you go to one of the schools no but like it was just the way it was just the way it was like my two best friends growing up both their dads were film editors like another one of my friends like had two parents who were working actors like jobbing actors yeah and another friend's dad

was like a carpenter for the movies you know like so it just didn't seem that weird and i and i just didn't i don't know like he was just my grandpa and then i went to a different school for middle school and my middle school drama teacher said oh are you related too which is the first time that had ever happened to me and she said his name but she said it wrong yeah like i did uh-huh and also i called him alia papu because papu is greek for grandfather and i was like no that's no my grandpa's name is alia papu and then you know went home and asked my parents about it and they and then they showed me i think viva sapato is the first one i saw oh yeah seems like kind of child friendly yeah and then on. Yeah, and then On the Waterfront. Mm-hmm.

And then On the Waterfront and Streetcar. I think those four. You know what's really hard to find for a while is Facing the Crowd. Yeah. And that's the best fucking movie, man. And it's pretty apropos of right now, right? Absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's just a crazy movie. I mean, I remember when I saw it, I'm like, why didn't I know about this? Because I saw it within the last decade, probably. Yeah, me too. You did too? Yeah, I didn't see saw it, I'm like, why didn't I know about this? Because I saw it like within the last decade, probably. Yeah, me too. You did too?

Yeah, I didn't see it until like four or five years ago. It just wasn't one of those ones that was easily available. You had to order, like, I don't remember where I saw it or why I saw it, but I was like, holy shit. Yeah, that and Panic in the Streets I hadn't seen until recently. Yeah, and like, I guess the big ones were like Splendor in the Grass, right? That was his, and East of Eden on the waterfront. And the one we had there, the other one america yeah yeah those were big movies yep but you like i i just don't like i i think it's interesting that like a lot of people don't

really realize you know people have a certain concept of celebrity and of you know the movies but it is an industry town and like the fact that like you know carpenters in the movie like you know it's like this this industry employs all levels of workers yeah and it's just like the business yeah yeah completely costume designers like yeah and it's crazy like that it sometimes annoys me people's impression of like hollywood it's like it's a big fucking machine you know what i mean yeah i mean it it only sometimes it used to annoy me at first when i first started out acting and people would be like oh you're like a hollywood royalty or something i'd be like like that is so far away from the way i was raised you know like i was raised in such a grounded way and by writers by writers exactly who are

like the biggest introverts in the world and so like loving and like such a i don't know like we sat down as a family for for dinner every single night that's a nice thing about having writers completely they could be at home exactly they take a break come out of their room that's exactly right chop up some garlic throw in the pasta and then go back into their room that's exactly right. Chop up some garlic, throw in the pasta. And then go back into their rooms. Yeah, that's exactly right. So you probably, you know, I just had to deal with that in, you know, telling somebody I was going to interview. You're like, no, those royalty, those, like it's easier for them.

Yeah. I don't know if that's true. I don't think it, well, why is it? Hmm. Well, I can't pretend to know, right? Because I only know what I know. But I would assume that it is slightly easier at the beginning to get a meeting or something. Sure.

With an agent or with whoever. Right. I bet it would be foolish to think that that didn't give me some kind of leg up. Right. I think the real thing is that it doesn't give you an advantage for very long. Exactly. You got to deliver the goods. Yeah. Or no one will hire you again. Right. I think the real thing is that it doesn't give you an advantage for very long. Exactly. You've got to deliver the goods. Yeah.

Or no one will hire you again. Right. But your entry in is a little smoother. I would guess that that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when did you decide that that was something you wanted to do?

Because I can't believe both you and your sister are doing it. Yeah. My sister's an actor, too. I think I did as soon as I knew what kind of a job that was. Yeah. Like, I remember. You saw it as a job first, not as, like, I want to be a movie star? No, not at all.

Yeah. That seems like a good job. Yeah. I think as a very little kid, it didn't seem like I didn't really understand what an actor did. Right. Like you watch movies and it's just like the people on the screen. Yeah. And then probably at like nine or 10 sort of occurred to me that that was a job.

That was something people could do. Yeah. Play pretend for a living. Yeah. Play pretend. That seemed like a good job. But I wanted to be a writer before i wanted to be an actor so that one came first and then it did yeah when did you start writing things for things like

before i could spell but like writing what did you think writing for movies or just writing i thought i wanted to be like a poet oh Oh, yeah. Sure. Poets. That's a good job. Great. Great job. Very lucrative. Yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of security. Totally. In the poet game.

Yeah. You can be secure that you're never going to make any money. You can be secure that if you don't get a teaching job, it's not going to really pan out. Yeah. That's right. So I wrote a lot of poetry and then stories and then... How do those poems hold up, Zoe? You know, they're little kids' poems.

You do say Zoe, don't you? Yeah. Okay, good. What, like Zoe? Yeah, some people do that. Do you know... So I think they do it partially because Zoe Caldwell was like a famous actress. And her parents...

When I met her, I said, oh, people always call me Zoe because of you. And she said, oh, my parents didn't know how to pronounce the name. They mispronounced her name for her life. By the time I was in high school, I was like, you know, writing little plays. Acting them out? Well, I started doing that as a kid. I mean, I feel partially to blame for my sister's acting career because, like, I enlisted her into my projects as a little kid. How much?

What's the age difference? We're three years apart. She's younger. Mm-hmm. Okay. So starting at probably five or six, I started putting on little plays on our futon in our living room. For your folks? Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Were they proud? Look, they're writers. Look, she's a writer. I don't know. For your folks? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Were they proud? Look, they're writers. Look, she's a writer. I don't know. I think they were a little trepidatious. When I told them I wanted to be an actor, they were pretty upset. Isn't that interesting about people in show business?

It's like, can't you do anything else? I know. Do you want a life of heartbreak? Why don't you be a scientist? Yeah. Why the rejection? Why do you crave this horrible thing? You know, when I was graduating high school, I wanted to go to conservatory and my parents told me that they wouldn't pay for it.

They wouldn't help me if that's what I did. They wanted you to go to college? They wanted me to go to college, college. So I did. And I think it was one of the better parenting moves they ever made. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Decide after you go get an education. Yeah. I'm so grateful to have my mind yeah oh yeah it's good so in so you acted in high school i acted in high school i wanted to act professionally they were like dead set against it did you go out for stuff in high school absolutely not they wouldn't let you they wouldn't let me but then you could have yeah you know i had like um like producers and stuff

like give my parents their cards at like uh my school plays and things oh really yeah and they were like no and i was um pretty devastated i thought they were ruining my life oh yeah you could have been yeah they ruined your life you could have been one of those weird child stars that kind of like everyone looks at in a bizarre way at this point. Well, look. Oh, that's what happened to her. She was so cute in that thing. Remember when she was seven? Remember when she was 12?

Yep. You, boy, you dodged a bullet on that one. Yep. But I agree completely. But at the time, I thought that they were actively trying to ruin my life. Okay, so the big fight at the Kazan household was like, why can't I go to conservatory? And then I applied to regular school and learned how to think. Where'd you go?

Yale. You went to Yale and you didn't study acting? did you go? Yale. You went to Yale and you didn't study acting? Well, there's a misperception of the acting school at Yale that's really famous as graduate. So I did undergrad theater, like I doubled with English in theater and did a bunch of plays there, which was a good chunk of my education. But I studied other stuff yeah what do you measure in english english in theater and i um like took a bunch of writing classes yeah and and then also you know the stuff that i remember the stuff that i think like i should have done more of that is the stuff that i had to do for my requirements like like bioethics seriously because i remember that stuff way more

than i remember like i mean like you know i remember yeah exactly that's right yes exactly well yeah sure because their bioethics you know you're weighing like they're you know there's like is this right or is this wrong this is the scenario sort of like it sort of resonates with you because it's challenges you morally. Yeah, totally. And also it's a part of my brain I'd never used before. So it was making me pathways. You never weighed out right and wrong before? Yes, I lived a completely amoral existence until then.

That's what did it? Yeah. Bioethics class? Yep. Thank God for bioethics. Set me straight. Boy, I was heading down a bad road. Just didn't know

the difference so alright well you know there's still time for that you know you can sort of brush up on that stuff

on your own I think about it I think about going back to school you do really yeah I'm 55 but that

that whole back to school thing has faded into the past I think about it like a pipe dream I tried it once in my 30s. And?

Yeah. I was living in New York. And I can't remember. It must have been in my mid-30s. And I'm like, I'm going to take a class at the new school. I'm going to take a philosophy class. Yeah? And I was just smoking a lot of pot.

And I don't know what I was thinking. But it was hard. And the teacher didn't like me. Yeah. And I became a smart ass. And I didn't do my homework. It was exactly like I was in college. Like nothing had changed.

There was no kind of like, I'm grown up now. I can handle it. Right. It was ridiculous. I really struggled in my philosophy classes in school. Well, you want it just to be like, are we going to talk? And it's like, it's not that. You got to learn the language.

And some of them are more logic oriented. It was just so much more like math than anything I could have expected. Yeah, I hated it. I took a class in college called symbolic logic and I don't know what the fuck it was about. I have no idea. Where did you go to school? Boston University. That's a good school.

I guess, you know, I was English major. It enabled me to do what I wanted to do and then wrangle a major together. That's exactly what I did. And there's a huge part of me that's like, I wish that I was still in the mindset of trying to get straight A's. Oh, wow. That's a good mindset to be in. I guess. I don't know.

I was still wanting to impress my teachers, to take classes I'd be good at. And then now I'm like, at, you know? Yeah. And then now I'm like, oh, what a waste of time. Really? Yeah. Like, well, in terms of, yeah, in the big picture, like, what does it matter if my teachers liked me? Well, I guess that's true.

But if you were getting straight A's, you were engaging with the material on some level, maybe it benefited you in ways you don't quite appreciate because, you know, it's somehow you're down on yourself for not taking more challenging, difficult or seemingly uninteresting classes. You're absolutely right. It's just one more way of me trying to be an A student. Yes, absolutely. Like if only I would have, you know. Oh, you're right. To this day, I don't think I can write a good paper.

Like I never even really, I can write a good paper like i never even really i can write i've written books but like if you were to tell me to write a term paper on something i just could not i don't know why i couldn't wrap my brain around it usually ended up like 10 pages of opening paragraphs uh-huh i just couldn't focus in yeah break it down my philosophy professors were like you do this thing in your philosophy papers where you like try to make a surprise ending. No surprise endings. Lay out what you're going to say and then say it. Yeah.

So after Yale, you've gotten your liberal arts education. Right. And your parents are happy. Yeah. And you're like, okay, now I'm going to do it. Yeah. So four years of school decided, you know, made me think I wanted more happy. Yeah. And you're like, okay, now I'm going to do it. Yeah. So four years of school made me think I wanted more school. Yeah.

So I applied to graduate school. At Yale? At Yale. And I got told, come back next year after you've had a little life experience. For the theater program. Yes. Yeah. And so I thought, okay, I'm going to take a year in New York,

and then I'll apply again, and I'll go back to school. Yeah. And I got to New York, and I had like a really wild year. Good wild? Yeah, and also bad wild. And then at the end of it, I didn't want to go back. And I started having panic attacks, and I had to call up the head of the program and be like, I started having panic attacks. And I had to call up the head of

the program and be like, I'm having panic attacks. The head of Yale? And he was like, I don't think you want to come. I was like, I don't think I want to come either. And then about a month later, I got my first job. So this is the first time you live away from home. And are you doing weird little plays? Are you like wild good and wild bad? I took a lot of acting classes. With? At a place called the Actors Center that doesn't exist anymore.

Never heard that one. I've talked to a lot of actors about New York acting places and I never heard that one. There's an actress named Mojan Marnot who is on a show called The Blacklist. Yeah. And she was at Yale Drama when I was Yale undergrad. Yeah. And I saw her in a play

and I thought she was really good and I wrote her and said, where did you study? And she said, I studied at the Actors Center. And so I applied there. And I took like a year of class there.

Where was that? It was in the mid-20s. Uh-huh. And the nice thing about that school is they hired a lot of people from graduate programs who are like looking to make a little extra money on the side. So I started with this teacher called Ron Van Loo who teaches at Yale Drama. Yeah. Oh, so you got it.

You got the Yale education. I got a little bit of it. Yeah. And like took like mask class and clown class. Oh, so you got it. You got the Yale education. I got a little bit of it. Yeah. And like took like mask class and clown class. Oh, you did all that stuff. Voice production movement. Yeah. It was really fun.

So it wasn't necessarily an industry driven class, but it was not. It was not method. No. It was, you know, you did all the things. I talked to your, are you guys married? You and Paul? No, we're not married. But he's like my.

Yeah. No, I know your partner and your baby. But I remember when I was talking to him, I said, because I didn't always talk to actors. Right. Until I started sort of acting. Because I, you know, and I've always been curious about it since I was in college. And I, you know, I would see what the training was. But I remember asking him do you ever do animal work and he's like I do he does he says hi by the way oh yeah that was great yeah I

was so happy that he was honest about it yeah yeah copying the animal work is not a regular thing you have to do in conversation oh for sure we but we both have well okay so masks and clowning yeah which was great and and also like really put me out of my comfort zone and what is mask work really well it's like the idea of putting on an archetype and then letting that archetype like inform what your body like commedia dell'arte kind of sort of yeah yeah so like these balinese masks that this mask teacher named pear bra works with and um he i learned a ton um and then i also like did a lot of like weird kind of jobs drank a lot and had a lot of sex and learned how to take care of myself. By doing those two things? No.

I remember waking up one morning and I was subletting this apartment that had radiator heat and you can't control it. So it was really, really hot and dry when I woke up. Like I was subletting this apartment that had radiator heat and you know you can't control it. So like it was really, really hot and dry when I woke up. And I went to the fridge and the only cold thing was a beer. And I opened it and drank it. And then I was like standing there in my kitchen like this is probably not good. Yeah.

Yeah. First thing. Yeah. But you know I was 22. Yeah. It's okay to do it then. Yeah. Yeah. That's the time you should

learn that lesson yeah as opposed to make a life out of it good for you you went the right way i guess so those heaters were the worst they're the worst and they'd have the knob on there do you like it's just even doing anything and then someone goes no the whole system's connected to one thing you're fucked and you're sleeping with all the windows open to try to regulate in winter yeah in the middle of the winter hissing that fucking hissing yeah and then you couldn't touch them i didn't know how to do anything like my laundry was never done so you had the you were a pile person not just a pile person but like i'd run out of underwear and then i would just like go without underwear for like a week like it was just like, really a lot of learning. Yeah. Because I had never, like, I had just never, like, lived like an adult.

Yeah. Like, you know. Yeah, I felt that when I got out of school. I didn't know how to rent an apartment or, you know, any of that. Totally. It's the worst. Just, like, loosed. And, like, not having any money, but also, like, you know, I grew up in upper middle class family.

Yeah. It wasn't like there was no safety net. But like, you also are like, okay, I need to learn how to like function and make a budget. And like, you know, you're paying your own rent for the first time. And how do I do that? And drink. Yeah. Well, drink.

That wasn't a problem because I was a girl. So I drank for free. Right. For like a year. Yeah. Yeah. Or like for three years. I drank for free. Uh-huh a problem because I was a girl. So I drank for free for like a year. Yeah. Yeah. Or like for three years, I drank for free. And then I got a boyfriend and then, you know, I got older and I don't drink for free anymore. Right. And not as much. And not as much. Thank God. I moved out of the East Village. That helped me.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I spent time there. So, okay. So masks, clowns. Yeah, I spent time there. So, okay. So, masks, clowns. Yeah, my clown teacher was named Jane Anderson. And she was great. And I was really, I really struggled with the clown stuff. Yeah.

It was really, really hard for me. Why? Too broad? No, I think I was trying, I think I was trying to control other people's perception of me. And I think I didn't like to, you have to like be willing to expose the most foolish part of yourself. And I think I didn't want that exposed at 22. And you couldn't quite frame that into your, your, the way of thinking of like, you know, I can get A's as a clown. I think I was trying to get A's as a clown and trying to do that without being honest. So you think clown work is a very honest form?

I do. I think it's super, super honest. And I really worked on it. I used to do my dishes with my nose on. Yeah. Yeah. To see what it did to my body. Did you eventually nail it or what?

I think I got better. Yeah. And then what was the practical stuff that you learned? Like scene study class and stuff like that. That was what I took with Ron and that was really great. And again, you know, actually, I don't know if you took a lot of acting class or not, but what I have found is that if the teacher is really good and i really want to impress them i'm not going to learn a lot by doing scenes in class that i learn much more from

watching other people do scenes yeah like i learned a ton in the scene work that i did but i kind of learned it like six months after the fact right And then getting to observe like an actor on stage and what you think is like getting in their way and then what the teacher identifies as like. Yeah. And then it helps you see yourself and something shifts in yourself. Right. I feel like my need to please is so high that, or it was a decade ago. Yeah. That it took me watching to really learn something.

Right, no, that makes sense. But it seems like being present and listening is kind of key. Yeah, that one. But it's tricky. Yeah. Because you like to get to a place where you're not just thinking about,

okay, here comes my, I'm about to say what I'm going to say. Sure. Here it comes. Look at that other person acting. She's good okay oh hi yeah then you kind of yeah or or or like the thing is like doing all your homework and then trying to show that you did all your homework yeah i'm not good at homework with anything i'm a sort of like last minute he kind of load up my head kind of person right and uh

sometimes that works but like i think making choices is the trick right in a lot of ways like i mean i can i do prepare but like backstory doesn't help me does it help you uh sometimes yeah i you know i did um i did a play in college, and the student director I worked with was all about backstory, and she made us write these elaborate autobiographies. And actually, we were doing The Crucible, and everything that we invented took us further away from the play. I would think so. I think that character autobiography or whatever is only helpful if it helps you engage with what's actually there. Well, that's the thing.

That's the one thing that I gleaned, and I was judgmental of David Mamet's approach early on. But I think it is on the page. And I think that if you trust the writers, that you're going to find your way to that person. Do you? I do. I agree with you. So you start doing theater? Yeah.

So I got. You did a lot of theater. I did a lot of theater. I've done like a dozen plays. Like big plays. Yeah. From like when you were like just what, when did you first start doing that? I was, I was 22 about to turn 23 when I did my first play in New York.

I did the Prime of Miss Jean Brody. Yeahdy with Cynthia Nixon at The New Group off Broadway. The New Group. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. And you were 22. I turned 23 during that production. And now did you know Cynthia? I had never met her until my callback for that.

And how was that? Was she great? She was great. I will say, like, you know, in terms of that like hollywood royalty like you have an easy kind of thing yeah like i like i was so eager to dispel that like i i think that's part of the reason that i worked so hard at the beginning is that i really wanted people to never be able to say that about me you never thought of changing your name? No. I like my name. Yeah. My name's my name. Yeah, I get it.

Some people change them, though. Yeah, I know. No, that's a lie. I did think about it. I just didn't think about it for very long. Right. Anyways, I memorized the entire play for the callback because I thought they might throw something else at me, and they did. And I was already off book.

So I gave myself a big leg up yeah and i got that part i think partially because i was that prepared um and cynthia was great and taught me a ton and she was also didn't hold my hand in the least and that was also really good and you were the two major characters yeah but what when you just taught by being with her or she actually no just by being with her and then actually like there there were like this guy named richie costar an actor named matt roush and an actor named john pink out and they were all in that play with me. And they really took care of me and were, like, great, like, gave me great feedback. Scott Elliott, who directed it, taught me a ton and was amazing.

And I just, like, kept my ears open. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, because it must have been just electrifying to be on a real stage with real grownups. Yeah. It's heavy, man. Theater's, like, intense. Yeah.

grown-ups yeah it's heavy man theater is like intense yeah well like i i don't know if you feel this way but i feel like the older i've gotten the more justification i have for confidence and the less confident i am like the amount of confidence i had at 22 23 right was so much bigger than my than my ability right and and i think, if I hadn't had that confidence, I wouldn't have gotten through those first years where everything is so hard and you're getting rejected all the time. But, like, it is like a form of self-delusion. Fake it till you make it. For sure. Yeah.

No, and there's a swagger to it. I mean, I think most people that get into this racket are, like, you know, sensitive, relatively insecure people that, you know, and you're acting confident. Totally. I mean, it are like you know sensitive relatively insecure people that you know and you're acting confident i mean it's like you have to you have to delude yourself in this business you know and yeah it can go either way yeah and like you know and if you're too far gone in the delusion you don't know when it's over and i think it probably goes the same where you don't know if like sometimes you you know how well you're doing I you know

I find that I'm a little better at that I'm a little more I can say like well that was good or there was some like you do a take

and they're like alright we got it and you're like I don't know if they did but if they if they saw something I'm not going to write them on it

yeah I don't know though like I just did this Coen Brothers movie that oh the Ballad of Buster Scruggs you haven't seen it

I want to see it but it's not on yet it's really I think the movie's wonderful I love it but I love them they're

oh my god they're the greatest they're the greatest yeah but there's like there are two scenes in it that on the day I was super unhappy with

and one of them I think it actually turned out really good. And the other one I think is not my strongest work. And like, you know, on the day on both of them, I felt like I walked,

I walked away being like, Ooh, I could have done better. But isn't that that moment though, where you, you know, you have to trust the director on some level. I mean,

well, you do when it's like the Cullen brothers. Right. But there is that moment where you're like, if you felt disconnected or whatever the fuck it was that that you didn't feel good about you're gonna see it again for sure and then you just sort of in that then the problem with that is if you can't let it go and people come up to you and go hey that was really great you're like hey it wasn't I wasn't quite I know well you know especially in the theater you do that like to the umpteenth degree because you're doing it every single night.

You're doing the same thing every single night for months on end. And you start to really feel like there's a massive difference between your good nights and your bad nights. And actually the difference is millimeters. And some of it can be just your relationship with the audience. Totally. Or on a night where the theater is really cold and like they react differently. Or Sunday matinee when there's only half a house. Yep.

Or Friday when they're drunk. Oh, believe me. As a comic, I know about that. The second show thing. Oh, it's so rough. Because you can hear it before you go on. Absolutely. So before every night, before I go on stage

when I'm doing a play I stand in the wings and listen to the noise of the audience because you can tell you know what they're going to be like. Oh yeah.

You can. No doubt. If you spend enough of your life on stage and you just like sit there and if it's sort of like like oh no. The worst.

And sometimes you can be like that guy's going to be a problem. That one guy. That's exactly right. That's exactly right that's exactly right oh god you just know you're up against a diminished attention span uh-huh and just like chatter oh what's the best night as a stand-up comic thursday that's the best night in the theater yeah thursday nights are the best nights in the theater sunday's good if you happen to be working on sunday just if you want to fucking work

shit out. But I found that Saturday's first show are oddly the worst. Because I think everyone's landed in their life. They've had a day at home and I don't know what their expectations are or why their energy's weird, but it's always sort of like, you know,

we only get out once a week. And, you know, how am I not going to disappoint them? Wednesday matinees and Friday and Saturday nights, I think, are the worst nights in the theater. Some people say Tuesday nights because it's the first night back from the day off. Yeah. Now, in your mind, when you were doing theater, were you like, this is what I'm going to be? I'm going to be one of these theater people?

Honestly, at the beginning, I just wanted to work. Yeah. You know? And like, people ask, I mean, they, I just wanted to work. Yeah. You know, and like people ask, I mean, they must do this to you too. People ask me like journalists will be like, like, how did you like plan out your career? And I'm like, Oh, give me a break. I'm lucky to have one. Yeah, for real. And also like, I'm also like, it could have gone the other way so easily in terms of what work i got like i auditioned for every cw show every abc family show i just didn't get those jobs and it's weird i would

imagine that in your 20s you were somebody who could have played teenager yeah and you probably went out a lot for that yeah i did did you get those sometimes but like always like a teenager with a problem. You're the troubled teen? No, like I just never got the, like, you know, I don't, I don't know. Like I could not pretend to be a different person than I was. Right. Or kind of thing. Like you can't fool the world about your like essential essence right like yeah i think that's i think that's probably true you know eventually they'll come out well as a as on being on the other side of the table like having i've written four plays and had them produced and when you're sitting on the casting side and someone comes in you can smell like sometimes

it's like oh don't even bother auditioning. Like you're not, you're not the right animal. Like the wrong animal came in the room and, and it's just the wrong animal for the part and it's not your fault. And you can be the best actor in the world and it can still be wrong. Interesting. Um, and that sort of like helped me start to, you know, be a little kinder to myself after it didn't go well on something. And obviously like that changed your expectations. Yeah. I don't know.

There was some, like, Americana show on ABC or CBS or something that I went in for at, like, 23. And the casting director, like, I walked in the room. She was like, oh, honey, this isn't your part. And I was like, oh, God. And I drove all the way out to Burbank, you know, and, like, you know, learned 20 pages of lines or whatever. I don't know how you guys do it

like a weird life uh because i was always stand up and anytime i'd go in i yeah but you know just sitting outside in the room like this ain't for me like it took me full like i had an art however i landed in my body like i know my wheelhouse you know what i mean like like i just got a little part in a movie and i'm and it's in boston and i just i wrote to the i told my managers i'm like if they want a boston accent it'll be ridiculous so let's let's get that out of the way because i can't do this i'm not going to sit there like pack what it's not going to happen i mean i oddly if you just plant me in a city long enough i I'll talk like whoever I'm around.

But I couldn't manufacture it. And thank God, they're like, no, I don't care. And I'm like, perfect. Great. I'll do it. So I can just be me? Yep. Great.

Yeah. I've gotten better at that. I also just like would go, I just like, you know, I just treated everything like it was Chekhov, I think a little bit. Like there is this. You did the seagull? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know what that means. So explain that to. So, I mean, like, like I took every audition really seriously. Like there was this sitcom called Kath and Kim. There was an Australian sitcom and they were going to make an American version of it. And they were like, the breakdown was like, she's disgusting. She like, it's like fat and sloppy and all this stuff. Like that was the breakdown. I was like, oh, okay's disgusting. She, like, is, like, fat and sloppy and all this stuff. Like, that was the breakdown.

I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. So, I, like, put on, like, clothes that didn't fit and, like, didn't wear makeup. And I walked in and it was, like, 20 girls all wearing cute blue jeans and a cute top and, like, wearing a lot of makeup. And I was like, oh, right. Like, they don't actually. And then they cast, like, Salma Blair. And I was like, oh, right. Like, they don't actually. And then they cast, like, Salma Blair. And I was like, okay, right.

I just misunderstood the assignment again. Like, I'll never forget. I auditioned for this horror movie. It was about a girl being eaten from the inside out by a demon. Yeah. And, like, it describes her face, like, peeling off. And, like they my feedback from my callback was can she come in wearing a cute top and more makeup okay okay always

misunderstanding but did you how'd you handle the peeling back in it did you i said i said i'm not coming back in if that's my feedback, which I didn't do very often. But I was really mad at them. I was really mad that like. Because you put that work in? Yeah. Because I like put a lot of like demonic possession work in. Yeah.

And they didn't care. They didn't care. They just wanted to see my tits. Oh, no. Yeah. That's the way it goes in horror movies. Yep. Well, it seems like you've transcended that.

Oh, that's nice. Now, when you say you've written plays that. Oh, that's nice. Now, when you say you've written plays, you've written four plays over the years. Now, did you work in a collective of any kind? Were you part of a playwrights group or anything, or you just did them? No. So I started my first play when I was at school in a playwriting class with this writer called Donald Margulies, great playwright. And I started this play in that class. And then when I was in that like first couple of years in New York and I was like drinking too much and sleeping with too many people, I thought, okay, I'm going to destroy

myself if I just sit around waiting for acting jobs, like I'll just become like a monster. And so I started, picked up that play again and I finished it and I gave it to my agent and a lit agent of my agency agreed to represent me and that play ended up being produced at the Humana Festival in Louisville. What was it called? It was called Absalom and then I've written three more plays since

and I've had them all produced, which was a mixed bag, but I learned a ton. So you can get them all produced, which was a mixed bag. But I learned a ton. So you can get them all at French's? Like in the little books? Yeah. You can. You can get them all in the little books.

That's exciting. It is exciting. That's kind of one of the nice parts about it. Well, as an actor, you know those little books. Yeah. And you like to see your name on one of those little books. It's pretty nice. Yeah.

Yeah. That part's nice. Isn't that the name of the publishing company? Is it French's? It's pretty nice. Yeah. Yeah. That part's nice. Isn't that the name of the publishing company? Is it French's? Samuel French is one of them. Yeah. Mine are DPS,

Dramatic Publishing Services or something. Same little book though? Yeah, exactly. Oh, a little script book. Yeah. You get to pick out the color for the...

You do? Yeah. Oh, that's the victory. Yeah. Yeah. So anytime it gets produced anywhere, they give you a few cents? Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah. So I never belonged to a collective. It's just something I've done to try to keep my brain alive. And it seems like you found most of your success, fortunately, I think, probably in retrospect in film. I mean, even though you tried for all these TV shows. Yeah. The standard kind of like three camera, you know, jokies or whatever they are. Yeah.

And like, I think that that can somehow be sort of limiting. And again, you might have dodged a bullet by not being a recurring on a eight year sitcom. Totally. I mean, totally. I will say that, like, it seems like now all bets are off in terms of like career trajectory, you know, in terms of knowing how it's going to go or what do you mean? I mean, in terms of what a show means or what, you know, people can do a web series and it launches them. Like, I think it's really great.

Like, there's something more democratic about what's happening now than what was happening 10 years ago. And also, like, yeah. And also, it's so fragmented that, you know, great shows can be on that no one's ever heard of. Totally. That's the downside of the democratization. That's completely right. Is that, like, you know know what's that on you know yeah i don't know what you're talking about no it's genius what i don't have enough time i don't

i don't i don't watch nearly enough of what is out there but that's okay but you have nice parts like i've seen like in the olive kitteridge thing that was great you know and you get to work with her yeah well yeah she's like just like she's something huh fran's the best she's like so like she's so in it yeah like you know whatever it is i met her briefly and she was so nice to me but she was sort of like i know you and i'm like wow that's enough that's good that's so exciting that you know me i mean she's sort of my hero i mean more than sort of and um yeah so getting to work with her on that was kind of like a career she's your hero in the sense of of how she handles herself as an actress or yeah like an acting hero like um i don't like the word idol but

like that you know yeah yeah yeah i mean there are so many women of her generation and just older than her that I admire and look up to like Jane Fonda and, you know, um, Sally Field and all, all these, you know, incredible generation of actresses to see space.

Like, um, I just talked to her. You did. Yeah. Oh, how is that? Great.

She's so great. she's a very generous nice you know kind you know thoughtful person that kind of lives a life a private life and does this amazing work yeah you know she's amazing yeah yeah profound um but but fran also like seems like like totally one of a kind ballsy person yeah exactly um and she's from the new york theater scene yeah yeah she is and when you work with her husband with the on the coen brothers movie yeah well how how do those guys direct um well no but i mean like what's the relationship like with the actor? You know, I didn't have a lot of contact with them before we shot.

Yeah. I auditioned for them twice. Yeah. For that part. And I didn't get a whole lot of information during those auditions, except that they laugh when they like something. And so I had a little tiny bit of that kind of feedback and a little bit of guidance. And they've been working with the same cast and crew, I mean, the same crew for like 30 years for the most part.

And so every person that you're meeting, every collaborator sort of is like meeting a part of their brain. Yeah. So like my work with Mary Zofries, the costume designer gave me as much information as they did probably personally and then they're very um unassuming and relaxed yeah yeah um they uh definitely hear things in a really precise way like they're

hearing the music of their film in their head very specifically and precisely. And it's in the writing very specifically and precisely. If you ever read one of their scripts, they're written the way you see the movie, like with camera angles and you can really see the movie on the page. Um, and they also give you the storyboards on your sides in the morning so you can see like what the situation. Yeah,

exactly. Um, so there's just like a ton of information there that's unspoken precise yeah not not much wiggle room there's wiggle room performance wise yeah right but and they love character actors yeah isn't that nice it's great tim blake nelson yeah i can't wait to see the movie. Like, I, you know, it's weird because, did you see The Hail Caesar? Yeah. I, like, thought that was, like, one of the greatest Coen Brothers movies

and everyone was sort of like, nah. And I'm like, no, watch it again. Watch it again. I think sometimes when people are consistently great, and also they're consistently great in a different way every time. Right? Yeah, you gotta watch them twice.

I feel like people don't always appreciate it because they take it for granted or something. Or they miss it. It took me years to really process the big Lebowski. Right. And even something like Burn After Reading, I had to watch that twice. Brad Pitt is so good in that movie. So good. He's so good in it.

When he really wants to act I mean he can really do it yeah like get into a character he's having a great time oh it's hilarious yeah with his headphones yeah I re-watched all their movies before I went off to make it you are studious but I also like that's fun I I know. Of course it is. I'm not judging you. No. What I'm saying is like I did it because yes it's studious but also like when am I ever going to get to be in a Coen Brothers movie again. So I might as well watch them all before I go do it so I can really take it in. Like I really appreciate it. And I do think that even though they're all different there is a way that they sort of orchestrate things. Yeah. Well this one's

very tonally tricky. Like, every chapter of it has a slightly different tone. And so I think part of my feeling was, like, I want to, like, watch a bunch of their movies so I can get a sense of, like, the range of tones and, like, figure out where I live. Oh, great. And it worked. Paid off? I guess.

I got to watch it. But you've done a lot of movies in small part. You, like, really kind of, like, slowly got more attention in movies. Yeah, I guess so. I guess that's the way it works, right? I think so. And I'm trying to remember.

It's complicated. I know that I saw it, but you got some attention. Were you the daughter? Yeah, I was one of the daughters. Right, right. Yeah. And you sort of got a little attention for that movie? Was that the first time?

Or when was the first time really? I did this. So my first like bigger part in a movie, I did a part in Revolutionary Road, the Sam Mendes movie. Oh, yeah. Was that with? Leonardo DiCaprio and Kate Winslet. And was that the one with Michael Shannon?

Yeah. I just saw him last night. You did? I saw him walking down the sunset and I pulled, I was on the way to the comedy store and I pulled over out my window. I'm like, Michael Shannon. He's like,

what? It's Mark Maron. He's like, oh, what's up? Because he'd been on the show. Yeah. I'm going to do comedy

and then he came up. Oh, that's nice. I didn't even ask him. He's a nice guy. He's intense. He's a very nice guy. He's kind of an amazing actor.

Yeah. So, I'm trying to remember you were a daughter in that? No, I played his secretary that he has an affair with. So, like, I'm trying to remember, you were a daughter in that? No, I played his secretary that he has an affair with, DiCaprio.

Right, right. And that was, like, a big part and, like, a big job, you know, like a kind of Tony movie.

Yeah. And I was scared shitless. I was so frightened. Yeah. Yeah. And how was Leonardo? Really kind to me. Yeah? Yeah. Well, that's sweet. Yeah. He was so frightened. Yeah. Yeah. And how was Leonardo? Really kind to me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's sweet. Yeah. He was really kind to me. I was really, really green and really

scared. But again, I loved that part. Yeah. She's a kind of fool, you know, which is always fun to play. Like kind of like Shelly Winters in a place in the sun or something oh right someone a little fragile right and taking advantage of needy and yeah yeah yeah a little bit doesn't know what they're getting into yeah exactly yeah um and and uh richard um richard yates who wrote the book doesn't have a lot of compassion for her i think think, on the page. So I was, like, trying to bring a little compassion to her. Yeah, so that was sort of, like, the first thing that let me, you know, get into more rooms and be seen for more different things. And then, I don't know.

I don't know what the next like turning point would be but i wrote i wrote a movie that paul and i made together um called ruby sparks and that was that dayton ferris who directed on little miss sunshine oh yeah i did that and that was sort of like a new chapter for me in terms of being the writer yeah like stepping into a different and also like taking charge of my career in a different way like being like i'm gonna be a creator yeah exactly yeah no it's a good move and i think everyone that you know certainly a lot of people listen to this show and the the nerd comedy world in general the big sick was a was a big movie yeah for you it was like you know that's like a like a starring role all the way through and yeah but you did a lot of independent movies

but there was a lot of juice around that movie yeah there was it was different yeah it was different because it was so true and you know i know emily i knew i know camille but i know emily you know yeah and it was sort of interesting to see her fictionalized but i thought yeah i thought you were great in it. But you're not. You weren't Emily. You were doing that part. I didn't try to do Emily.

Right. No, of course not. But did you have fun on that movie? Yeah, I loved doing that. Yeah. It was really great. You know, you're right. I had done a lot of independent film.

And like, you know, to be totally honest, a lot of, I don't know, like you never know how they're going to turn out. Right. Like it's always a crapshoot. You're always like taking a gamble. Like sometimes they work out well, sometimes they work out less well, but they rarely like hit a vein the way that movie did. Like people saw that movie. Amazon got behind it. Like critics loved it.

And that had never really happened to me before. Like I'd been involved in things that were successful, but it felt like, oh, it hit a little like zeitgeisty moment in a kind of way. And I think independent films in general are all underdogs in a way. Yeah. That, you know, if one surfaces for whatever reason, it's usually like, we did it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah so but what i was going to say is like you can never tell on set like how something's going to go right but but we had a really good time making that movie and and like walking away from making it i was like oh well if this movie doesn't go anywhere that was still really great like i still had a really great time like show

walter runs a set in a really great way. He's like really relaxed. He seems really happy about everything. Like, like a lot of positive reinforcement. He would say like, we can do it again if you want to, but I thought that was pretty great. And like something about the way that he said it would make me go like,

let's move on. Whereas normally I'd be like, give me one more. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good experience. Yeah, it was good.

So let's talk about this new movie, Paul Dano. You and Paul Dano made this movie. Yeah, we did. I watched it. You did. I liked it. Thank you. It looked, it's a beautiful looking movie and it's a nicely acted and written movie. Uh, my question after watching that movie, you know, in terms of, you know, how many movies are made and why people make movies, why'd you choose that material? So Paul fell in love with it. Paul fell in love with the book, which is a book by Richard Ford called Wildlife. And he brought it to me and was like, do you think that this would make a good movie? And I saw so much of him in it.

And he had been looking for something to direct. And I was like, yeah, let's option it. We'll hire a writer and then he sort of like dreamt on it for a while and was like i want to take a stab at writing it and he wrote a draft and he gave it to me and i thought it was really bad and i was like made a lot of notes and we got about five pages into the script of me giving him notes and we'd been talking for like an hour and we don't really fight often. We were like fighting and I was finally like, yo, I think this will be better for our relationship if you just like let me rewrite you because it will be faster and I can show you what I mean rather than telling you.

And so I did. And then we just started like trading drafts back and forth. So it started really like with him, like his attraction to the material. Right. Which I think comes from like a really personal place. I think it speaks like to some personal experiences he's had. Uh-huh. And then for me, like it started as a puzzle for me.

Like the book is really, I think the book is a challenge in terms of adaptation. It's really interior. Like there isn't a lot, you know, it's a lot of internal experience. Yeah. Cause if you were actually to sort of tell the story of the movie, you'd be like, that's the movie. Yeah. So like there was a lot of, you know, in the direction and in the acting to create that a bigger space than something that, that is that interior. That's exactly right. And like writing, it was like trying to make room for bigger space than something that that is that interior that's exactly right and like writing it was like trying to make room for that space like paul keeps saying like the space between the lines is as important as the lines in this movie um and so it was like a puzzle for me

and that was really fun and i'd never adapted anything before but then as i worked on it i started to feel like really compelled by the character of jeanette and the carrie mulligan plays really felt like there but for there but for the grace of god go i like she lives in a time where her choice is really conscribed like um she she doesn't have a lot of room to express herself or find out who she is. And so she starts making the only choices she can make. And I was just like super, super compelled by that. Well, yeah, I thought that was, you know, obviously the centerpiece of the kind of emotional flux of the movie was her performance in that character.

So, like, I found, because, you know, you're moving through this thing, and the cast is great. Jake Gyllenhaal. Yep. And who's the kid? He was good. His name is Ed Oxenbold.

I thought he was very good, because you could, you know, he held his, not his emotion, but like he was, like he held a lot in, like he was sort of a blank slate that you were reading into. You didn't quite know, but you know,

you felt there was a lot going on under there. Yeah, we felt that from, he was the last kid we saw and we just like totally fell in love with him. He's Australian and he sent in a tape from Australia and like totally fell in love with he's australian and he sent in a tape from australia and we just fell in love with him and mostly for that exactly that quality that you're talking about like he's making a lot of choices he's got a lot going on but it's all under the surface yeah and bill camp is one of these guys that you now see everywhere totally

like it's weird because i never knew who the fuck he was until, you know, that HBO movie. Yeah, Night Of. The series, Night Of. Yeah, and I'm like, now it's like, he's in everything. I know. He's been in the New York theater scene for a long time and is like a god of the New York theater scene. So you knew him. Yeah.

And Paul had done Love and Mercy with him. He played Paul's dad in Love and Mercy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah. So, you know, when we started casting it, Paul was like, I really think Bill would be right for this. and mercy with him he played paul's dad and love and mercy oh yeah yeah that's right yeah so you know when we started casting it paul was like i really think bill would be right for this um but you're right he's like had one of these like you know second act career real character

actor yeah yeah but like it is sort of uh uh i i just thought the the way it was written like it was very good you know because there is that space in the dialogue. And especially for Carrie's part, you know, like, when she starts to come unglued, you know, it's both moving and scary and completely sympathetic. I'm glad you found it so. Because it's 1960. Yeah. And you kind of realize the constraints.

But, like, you know, jake's character like i don't know it was all so subtle but yet like there's a turn at some point where you're like this is because you in these kind of movies like it because of the space you guys captured it's montana right yeah and like you know he shot the shit out of montana i mean it was like terrence mallick stuff right oh that's nice like just the space space looked great. Diego Garcia is our DP and he's amazing. Yeah, it was great. But you're kind of waiting for something major to happen and you realize that it's happening, but it's really an emotional thing. Yeah. You know, even, you know, when she drives him out there to look at that, you know, I don't think I'm spoiling anything. Just to look at fire, you're like, what the fuck?

You know? Yeah. Like, is mommy nuts or is mommy just like that? Having grown up, born in 1963 and having a mother who had other aspirations, who did not get to realize herself in probably the way she wanted, that that sort of hit this trigger where you realize, like, is she being selfish? Yeah, absolutely. But is it neglect of the kid on some level? I guess so. But that was just the time, man.

And kids are a little more resilient than you think they are. Yeah. And then when, you know, whatever happens with Jake after, you know, it ends, it's disturbing, but it's not, nothing breaks. Yeah, I think that's exactly what we're aiming for. The idea, like, that a family can break apart without people breaking. Right. And, but, you know, you're watching, you know, Carrie, and you're like, oh, God.

Yeah. But I have a problem with the way it's described on Wikipedia. Maybe you should. What is it described as? It says the plot. In 1960, a boy watches his parents' marriage fall apart after the three of them move to Montana and his mother falls in love with another man. Yeah.

That is not. That's not what happens. No. No. No. But the first paragraph of the book says something not dissimilar from that. And I wonder whether they're just lifting it from the book. Well, I understand it as a plot line.

The only problem with it is the falls in love part. I agree. And I thought that was kind of genius. You guys did a lot, or Paul did, or I don't know how it was written, with the camera where you see the kid seeing something, but you don't know if you're going to see it yeah you know and and you know there was one point where you didn't but you could make your own assumptions and then there was another point where you did and it was not quite as horrifying as it could be yeah you know uh because you're like oh boy how what's that kid going to take him when he peers into the house? Yeah, for sure.

And then it was just sort of like, no, okay. Have you ever spent extended time in an editing room? Yeah, a little bit, yeah. I really love it. That's where it all happens. I learned so much. So we helped produce this movie and we both took the year off to edit the film. So even though Paul's the director, I was there all the time and I learned a fuck ton.

And honestly, the writing process happened all over again, which seemed impossible. We worked on this for three years. It seemed impossible that there was that much work still to do. And there was. And that was one of the things of like, how long do you hold on this thing? How long is too long? Like, it's a slow paced movie. Like, but like, is the pace too slow?

And then also like building performance. Like, obviously it's all of these like genius actors. But you're also like responsible for for crafting the storytelling of it. Yeah, you're the people that when you do an independent movie and walk away from it going, I don't know what that's going to do, you're the guys doing it. Yeah, it's fascinating. It made me be like, oh, God, I should have been a film editor. It seems like the best job.

Yeah, because if you have the footage, you really have a whole other world to it. You have a whole new thing to explore. Yeah, it's like you've written books like when you're writing prose like suddenly all the there's no like template like you know when you're writing a play or a script there's a template and it sort of felt like that like right we could make anything yeah we don't have to he doesn't have to do that yeah we can take that part all together completely we can start it in a completely different way we you know there are there are infinite numbers of movies you can make out of this footage well i thought that the the way you guys build it is pretty great you know like because

there there's something about some as beautiful as montana is and the way that was all shot there there's a menace to the isolation that you know that uh that functions right alongside of the beauty you're saying all the right things that you know that the space that's there just because of like you have these humans ruminating or living in the world within themselves yeah and that you know when it comes out you know it that you you're sort of like it's so sparse that you're like oh it matters so much right yeah but i i just i thought it was a i thought it was great and i before i knew it was a book you know like yesterday my producer said what was a book and i'm like i could not understand why they would just pull this story out of nowhere

it seems so bizarre that the two of them would sit down and write this. And he's like, it's a book. I'm like, oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, that would be bizarre if that was like the burning story that we had to tell. Exactly. I was like, okay, okay, I get it now. And you guys decided pretty early on that you weren't going to act in it.

Yeah, immediately. We never, that was never on the table. Partially because, honestly, when we first started writing it, in it. Yeah, immediately. We never, that was never on the table. Partially because, honestly, when we first started writing it, we were like 27, 28. Yeah. And we were just too young. And we were thinking about actors

who were really more like the age of our parents. Yeah. Because we were still thinking of them as the parents. Yeah. And by the time we were really going to make the movie, we were like, oh, they're our age, basically, like these characters. Yeah, right. I mean you know i think i think that there's something about the mystery of your parents which speaks to everyone like that's true that's true everyone's parents

are a mystery to them yeah a line that i quote a lot from uh from michael clayton is when Sidney Pollack says people are fucking incomprehensible yeah yeah and like I really well we've had that we've had some like critical response like even we've had very critics have been very kind to this film yeah and even within that context we've had reviews or said oh this unsympathetic woman unsympathetic character and i feel like you're lying to yourself about how people are if you think that good people don't behave this way like people people go through shit like especially that generation they were young they were kids completely i think about all the time grandmother was 22, 21 when she had her first kid.

My mom was 22. If I had had a child at 21, that child would be so messed up right now. My mother's barely together now. Yeah. Well, and also like the alcoholism and the, I mean, there's like a whole thing in that generation. But you didn't overplay that either. No.

Well, that would have colored the story. Because like it was weird when you know there was a couple of like amazing choices like in that scene i don't want to spoil anything but you know when jake's character does what he does in anger that you know and bill camp's character that that the fact that he was with the the woman who worked at the place, it was like, oh, this is just like, you know, this is just men. I'm so glad you picked up on that. Well, you know, we don't have a close-up shot of her. Yeah.

You know, she's in a wide, and it was like a little detail where we were like, well, I guess we'll see whether people pick up on this or not. Could have been any woman. I mean, you have the moment where you're like, oh, is he married? And then you're like, no, that's the fucking. It's another woman. Yeah. Yeah. That guy's just that guy.

Bill Camp said this wonderful thing in the Q&A about that character. He plays this like really like loach character. And he was who's been through the war and he's got like a limp. And someone asked him about like, what's this guy's motivation? And he was like, he's been in a lot of pain for a really long time. And he wants to have pleasure., he's been in a lot of pain for a really long time and he wants to have pleasure. Like he's just seeking pleasure.

And I was like, oh damn, it's so good. It's true. And it's like, I never would have thought of it. And it's right there on the page. It's not like he's,

I mean, it's a good example of character backstory. Like he didn't invent that. It's right there. But that's the core of it. That's sort of as an actor, like what, what is,

what is it? The word I want the motivation. Yeah, totally. You know, every that, that's the core of it. That's sort of as an actor, like, what is it, the word I want, the motivation. Yeah, totally. You know, that's the core of it. Yeah, completely. Yeah. I don't know. It was really fun.

You know, we've acted together a bunch of times, Paul and I. We met doing a play together, and we did this movie called Meek's Cutoff together. We did the movie that I wrote together. And it was really hard acting together. And I don't think we'll do it again. But writing together was really nice. Well, good. You did a great job.

Thanks. Nice talking to you. Nice talking to you. The movie is Wildlife. That was Zoe Kazan. She co-wrote it with Paul Dano, and it's playing in select theaters now. All right. Dig it.

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