WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 968 - Michael Douglas

Episode Date: November 15, 2018

Michael Douglas produced an Academy Award-winner for Best Picture, was the star of a successful television series, and was compiling a notable filmography both in front of and behind the camera. But he still didn't feel like he made it. That finally changed in his 40s, with movies like Wall Street and Fatal Attraction, and Michael tells Marc why that period was such a breakthrough for him. They also talk about why his early work on TV was vital for his career, why Jack Nicholson calls him a “hair actor," and why he was draw to making a serialized comedy like The Kominsky Method with Alan Arkin. This episode is sponsored by Screen Dive from 20th Century Fox, YouTube Music, 23andMe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies

what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark mar Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. If you're new here, well, let me show you around. This is my garage. This is the new garage where I do the podcast. It's sort of in flux right now. There's a few guitars laying around. There's shit all over the floor. Couldn't find my wah-wah pedal for like a half hour it was just in a bag i gotta get some work done in here these sound panels were made by some guy that i met at a at a studio they're working out pretty well sounds pretty nice uh there's just shit on not unpacked and printers on the floor and wires everywhere but this is the new look so if you're just coming around you'll hear the old garage in some of the older shows,

but this is the new garage. I don't know how much you'll be able to tell the difference in sound, but this place is sort of, it's a little more chaotic right now, and it seems to be doing all right. Are you all right? Everybody all right? I do want to tell you this, that the t-shirt, the new Aaron Draplin designed WTF t-shirt at podswag.com slash WTF or buy. If you get it, you can go to click on the merch link at WTF pod.com. That t-shirt, it's a hit, folks.

People are loving it. It's hot. It's happening. Go get yourself one. Did I mention Michael Douglas is on the show? Who doesn't love Michael Douglas? I love Michael Douglas. Are you kidding me?

Man, how good was he? He's been good in a lot of shit. But how good was he in that Liberace movie? That HBO Liberace movie? Who are you talking to, mumbles? Who are you talking to, mumbles? I can't do it. But yeah, he's been in a lot of stuff and he's always pretty good and he's produced and he's done. It was a great talk and it's coming at you momentarily. I got the cats. The cats are very excited to see me. But now

here's where my brain is right now. I, they've been eating the same food for a while. It's good food. It's a, I think it's wellness. It's like a chicken and herring, but they sort of, they're not that excited about it anymore. So then I went out and bought this Dave's food because Sarah, the painter, she's all into the Dave's food. It's, it's no grain, all good shit. And I bought it, like I had a, like a salmon and tuna one. And I put that out in the buster buster kitten you know he's not so hot on the wet food it's hard to get him to eat the wet food he likes the dry food nothing i can do but i put out this tuna and salmon shit and it was like crack

man they just fucking went through it to see do people still say that like crack is that is that nostalgic is that outdated is crack like crack there crack anymore? It seems that culturally in terms of addiction and death in that area of engagement that we're going down, we're not going up anymore. I guess that's not true. I guess it seems like crack is way out. Meth and fentanyl. Fentanyl. Fentanyl, you know, go fast fast go slow go dead either way but anyway so talking about cat food i'm just telling you where my brain is at right now so i just bought some more dave's fishy food herring and tuna fishy as shit man and i don't know if you're a cat owner but cats are pukey and you never know what the new food. So right now, like I fed them the new food and they inhaled it and they fucking loved it. But now I'm sort of, I had to go, I shut the door to my bedroom. I shut the door to the living room because, um, one thing about fishy food is that when they throw it up, that's a fishy stain on your fucking sofa. That's very hard to get out.

So I'm trying to hedge temper whatever the word is curb the possibilities of what's going to be thrown up upon i don't know if they're going to throw up but this is where my heads are at are they puking up fishy food on something i love or something i sit on or something i'm gonna have to clean i know it's not my bed because uh shut the door powerful stuff Don't you wish I was talking about sports or something? Huh? Is that who you wish I was? I got some emails that are nice. I got some nice emails. Oh yeah, this is something, and this goes, maybe you can relate to this in your life. When I did the Beacon Theater last weekend I I had a the the subtext of it was I wanted to correct

what I thought were mistakes at Carnegie now Carnegie Hall was an amazing night it was a big night for me but I don't know I don't know if people experience this in whatever you're doing you must experience some version of it you know when you show up for work and you're in it and you're you're you're just uh you're just you nailing it? And I don't like to use that fucking word. You're just in your body, you're in your shit, you're in your work, and you're operating on all cylinders. from happening sometimes is that you just get a little bug in your brain that it's not going to work out or it's not going to be good or it's not going to go the way you want it or you're not going to nail it. I don't like using that word, but that can fuck you up because then you're self-conscious, you're not in it and you don't feel grounded and you feel like you're a little, just a little bit desperate, a little bit, got a little like, you know, you're a little just a little bit desperate a little bit uh got a little like you know you're

too vulnerable to to be doing what you're doing but you got to do it because it's your job this is a long way of saying is that as good as Carnegie Hall was even though I did two hours whatever um and I and I was up there a long time and I made that place an intimate environment in my mind I was like the first half hour of my Carnegie Hall show a couple years back I I felt like I was struggling I felt that any minute that uh the funny would dissipate it would just be me up there wondering why people uh weren't liking me or or or being too serious and demanding some sort of emotional support. See, that should all be the subtext of good comedy, not up front. But I mentioned it at The Beacon, and I need to sort of apologize,

because I got this email from New York City as a subject line from NYC. Hi, Mark. My wife, Lee, and I saw you this last time at The Beacon and loved the show, but we kept hearing how you felt the Carnegie show was not as good. We were there sitting right next to your family, and we thought your show then was better if it has to be graded. But that's the BS thing about grading. It implies something is better or more valuable or what the fuck ever. The Carnegie show was different and we enjoyed the difference very much. My wife pointed it out best when she said that the Carnegie show was more personal. It was less joke related and more

Mark related. Like we were getting a look into how you look at things spontaneously. You consulted your notes more at Carnegie. Like you just wrote something down on the subway. I probably did. Yeah, I probably had. Of course, there was plenty of showmanship at Carnegie, but there was also some of you just grooving with things.

And it was great to see your mind working and the audience loved it. The Beacon Show is great too. Definitely more bit related, but even with that, you'd go off on tangents and assure us you were coming back. But that tangential thinking of yours is really amusing. Some may qualify laughter as the delightful response to astonishment and the reward for learning something new. In that sense, comedians are our teachers. They show us other ways to think about things and especially about humans. Following

your tangents of thought is part of the real delight in seeing you perform and to listening to your interviewing. So yes, Beacon was tight and well done with a nice sprinkling of Marin flourishes, but Carnegie felt like more full-on Mark bolstered occasionally by set bits. Both shows are great to be at. So thank you from both of us, David and Lisa. Okay, okay, okay. I, you know, and I've learned this lesson before. Like if you don't feel like you did as good as you should, just keep your mouth shut about it

because you don't know what other people's experience of. And I think that applies to anything. Like if you're not feeling like you're hitting your mark, just, you know, shut up about it. You know, you don't know if people are paying attention to you in the same way that you are. Does that make sense? Is that at all helpful? Can I read you one other email?

Would that be all right? Comedians laughing. Oh, this is not the one I wanted to read. But this is a nice one. I'll read this. Comedians laughing is the subject line. Dear Mark, I have been a fan for a long time, almost since the beginning. I remember hearing the Gallagher and Carlos Mencia and Robin Williams interviews and having my mind blown. I avidly sought out each past episode as I kept up with all the new ones. I can't listen to every episode now, but I always listen when you're interviewing a comedian.

Not only because I love comedy and comedians, but because there's this thing that happens every time you interview a fellow comic. At some point, one of you makes the other laugh and you both just let it rip. The kind of deep, full-throated laughter that is so rare in the world. It's like a tonic for the soul just to hear it. And often you are laughing about something awful, some terrible thing that happened to one of you, but you look back on it and laugh and laugh and laugh. It's a beautiful thing. Some true deep wisdom. Thanks for bringing it. It brightens my day and my world every time. john yeah man you know comey what comedians find funny it does go pretty deep so all right i think we're okay i wanted to read this other one but you know why

am i even telling you maybe i'll read it next time what difference does it make now am i right michael douglas is here michael douglas is someone i feel like he dug deep into my brain because my mother, I think, had a crush on him, really. I remember watching The Streets of San Francisco at the base of my parents' bed because my mom would lay in bed and watch it. You know, they watched the TV in their bedroom. We'd all go in there at some point. But yeah, so I think that was it. It was The Streets of San Francisco. But he feels like somebody I've watched my entire life because I have. He's now starring in the new Netflix original series, The Kominsky Method, along with Alan Arkin. It's available for streaming tomorrow, November 16th. This is me and Michael Douglas talking right here in the new garage.

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Thank you very much. Nice to see you. Nice to be here. I feel like I've known you my entire life. Well, gosh. You look younger than that, man. I'm 54, dude. I'm 54. I'm 74 next week, so there you go. But just from when I was a kid, my mother watching Streets of San Francisco. You were too young to stay up that late. I remember. I remember. But it's weird when I talk to people that I feel like were active parts of my life throughout the entire thing.

A couple questions up front. How's your dad doing? My dad's great. As good as you can be at 102 in December. That's crazy. He's discovered FaceTime, so all we do is try to keep a curfew because we live back east. He tends to forget about the three-hour time change. We're an early-to-bed family.

Yeah. And, but he loves it. Yeah. So, you know, he hits that FaceTime button, and there he is, and you have a nice conversation. And we say goodnight or goodbye, and the only problem is maybe 10 minutes later, he calls again and says, how are you? I said, Dad, we just talked. We talked 10 minutes. He goes, all right, right, right, right, right.

Is he by himself? No, he's with his wife, my stepmother. They've been together 65 years, and she's there. She gets angry when I tell people how old she is, so I won't do that. But she's close behind him. Right. And the two of them are quite a pair. I go over, have good conversations with them,

a little dinner, and I get out. Usually I'm a little hoarse from speaking so loudly. Yeah. I'm always trying to check on their hearing aids, but bless them, you know? So genetically sound. Genetically sound. The only thing he always asks me is, are you working out?

Are you working out? And I said, I am, Dad, although I travel sort of hard. And I look back, and he had a trainer, Mike Abrams. He had a trainer forever, like 40 years. I remember he worked with this guy. And then one time I went to see dad when he was 90. Uh-huh. And he was, you know, I wasn't too, what's wrong, dad?

Yeah. Mike died. Mike Abrams died. His trainer. Oh, dad, I'm sorry. How old was Mike, dad? 94. 94.

And he was working out with dad when he was 90, so. I would have liked to have seen that. That should have been a fitness video. That was a special generation. and he was working out with dad when he was 90 so i would have liked to seen that that should have been a fitness video that was that was that was a special generation everything they say about that generation is true well i mean did you so he's out here like he lives out here forever he lives yeah he lives out here in beverly hills forever and you grew up out here no no no i grew up uh i grew up back east basically really, my mother and father met each other in acting school, the American Academy of Dramatic Arts.

Yeah, in New York. In New York City. Yeah. And, you know, they were both at the school together. My mother was Bermudian, British, kind of lied about her age. She was very tall for 16 years old and came to the States, the American Academy. My father, Belarus, Russian Jew. Yeah.

You know, immigrant. Yeah, I got it. Family came over here in 1914. He was born in 1916. Opposites attract. Yeah. They got together. And then soon after that, my father got a contract that came out to Hollywood, proceeded to chase every skirt in town, and my mother said time out.

And so my brother and I, we all moved back east. So I grew up in New York City and would come out and visit my father on the holidays over time, and then grew up in Connecticut with my stepfather and my mother. So your relationship with Kirk was on and off? No, we always maintained he was a very guilt-ridden father in terms of the one thing, you know, his father never gave him much attention at all or really acknowledged any of his success. And so I think when they divorced, I think he felt guilt. So he was always, we'd see him on holidays, no matter how hard he was working on pictures.

A lot of pictures. A lot of movies, over 100 movies. Those are the days before television. Before television, five movies a year you'd be making. Did you get introduced to the, like when did you become sort of you know driven towards acting i mean because of him or being on set my mother was an actress too that's right yeah no really uh you know i was in my junior year of college i went

to the university of california at santa barbara i was a hipp 1963. So you were out here with him then? I wasn't with him but I moved to I'd gone to schools in the East Coast when I came to college I came out here So you were a hippie. I was a hippie and finally I was in my junior year and they said you gotta declare a major

you can't keep taking general education I thought oh man I thought theater would be the easiest. The easiest, but my mom was an actress. Oh, really? So it was like that? Yeah, so that was it.

I started reluctantly. I was a terrible actor. Kirk used to tell me that. He did? Well, I was bad. I was not inherently talented. I'm a grinder. Really? I, I was bad. Yeah, I mean, I was not inherently talented. I'm a grinder. Really?

I'm a real grinder. Well, in the hippie thing, like, you know, like at that time in the, you know, out here in L.A. or in the country, I mean, like, how active were you? Or were you just doing the long hair? We were, you know, we had a community group up in Santa Barbara. Actually, those were my first theatrical productions. We used to put on Greek comedies. Right. A bunch of long hairs.

A bunch of long hairs. We put a sheet over us to look like togas. Yeah. And we used to work out. We'd take the cardboard roll of the inside of a paper towel thing. We'd tie a string to our hand, and we'd make it like a phallus. Yeah. And we'd point, and the phallus would rise.

The string. You know, that was sort of the beginning. Experimental theater. Experimental theater, right. And the beginning of the Pleasure Fair, the first years of Renaissance Fair, and driving up to San Francisco on a motorcycle to fill a mortar. It was a great time.

Yeah, good time? It was a great time. Like in the late 60s? Late 60s. Now, did you hang out with any of the, so you weren't locked in with other like actors, kids? Because I had Peter Fonda in here a few weeks ago. And it just seems like there was a community,

like the Hollywood community was smaller. It was tight. It was tight. You didn't go on location. The back lots of 20th Century Fox, of Universal, everything was shot in town, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I would visit my father when I was a younger kid,

yeah, sure, I knew Frank Sinatra Jr. and Candy Bergen. Right. Everybody was around. Your dad's friends? My friends, Billy Lancaster was good friends with my brother Joel. So it was a very tight community. Jamie Lee Curtis and all of that. And you knew all the parents, too.

Knew all the parents. Have dinners together and stuff. And that's probably the biggest advantage of being second generation is to be able to see these movie stars with their foibles. As people. With their insecurities. Yeah. With their people. Yeah.

As real people. Yeah. And I think it allows you to conduct yourself as a person when you have a little degree of success. Right. And, I mean, you've had a tremendous amount of success. So your dad tells you you're a shitty actor, and so what do you...

Because, like, you know, you're a very good actor, obviously. So how does that... I mean, even with grinding, I mean, like, how do you... Where do you train initially? Well, I just... I worked hard at it. Yeah. I mean, you know, I say that, you know, he was the same breath. He went to every one of my productions, every one of my shows, and was the first guy to tell me when I did a little Michel de Gelderode play.

He said, Michael, you were good. You were really good. Oh, yeah. And that was that. Did you train I did I was fortunate enough in the summer times I went back to a place called the Eugene O'Neill Memorial Theatre yeah in Waterford Connecticut they had the National Playwrights Conference yeah and I worked there basically just in

construction and trying to build theaters but I would get a chance to play small parts and they had a this National Playwrights Conference, and it was at a time when there were just these great writers, Israel Horowitz, John Guare, a whole bunch of really, really fabulous writers, Sam Shepard. Sure. So I started doing these last two, three summers

where I met Danny DeVito at this theater and all of that. Oh, you did? Yeah. So you knew him when he was starting out? I knew him when he was at the American Academy. I knew Danny DeVito when he had long hair. Really? When he had hair, period.

Forget B.C. That's B.D. before Danny. Yeah. So there we were one day. I'm looking out in New London out of the Long Island Sound with the fog coming in the hoop the fog horns yeah and this little guy comes up to me and you know and he uh long hair hey hey hey you get high i said so and that was the beginning that was the beginning yeah and he's around he like he's in this new thing he's in the kominsky method yeah he shows up in a lot of your movies and like in so you

one of his dear friend but finish your thing yeah so after that when i graduated from school i went to new york city yeah studied with a guy named wininn Handman. Yeah. Who, bless his soul, is 94 years old and he's still teaching. Uh-huh. And then basically got picked up with the CBS Playhouse. They were still doing those? Mm-hmm. So you're a regular player on the CBS Playhouse? No, the CBS Playhouse was like an original production.

And it was one-off. It was with Tish Sterling, I sterling and so i did that and i got some attention and then came back out to hollywood and started and then you started a couple tv things then you got street i did two or three movies that were turkeys and then i started going into episodic television medical center fbi medical center chad everett chad everett right and then the um streets came up. Yeah. Which was an opportunity I couldn't pass up. Did you know Malden when you were a kid?

No, I didn't. Although both Carl and my father were in summer stock together, and they both changed their names at the same time. Carl was Mladen Sikulovic. Wow. He's a Serb. And dad was Istio Danulovic. Wow. He's a Serb. And dad was Istio Danilovic. Yeah. And those are two tough names in light.

But they weren't friends? No, they were friends. They didn't know each other. They were friends that summer. And they both basically changed their names. Carl and add to Kirk. So he did a lot of streets of San Francisco. 104 hours.

Yeah. 104 hours. And you got an Emmy for that? No, I was nominated two or three times. But that's the whole basis and structure of my life or my success was were those those hours with Carl Malden from Gary, Indiana

Steel Mill Town who taught me the value and work ethic really? he was the guy? he was the guy and the structure

of of working on on an hour show which is actually 52 minutes in 7 days of filming with a new director every week, new guest stars.

Yeah. And I learned my responsibility of carrying the plot line or this or that. So all the business stuff. The business stuff, but just the technical parts of it. And also whatever stage fears that I had from earlier, just staring at that camera every day reduced that.

And it also, so when I left that show after four years and it was a big hit, to go produce One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Yeah. And everybody thought I was crazy. Why are you leaving a hit show, you know, in your fourth, your fifth year

was just, you know, doing well. Oh, they were going to keep doing it? Oh, the show was a big hit.

So did it go on without you? Yeah, it went on, went on with it, only for one more season with another guy. What happened to that guy?

Richard Hatch. It didn't go so well. The show didn't, you know the show didn't you know it didn't work out we carl and i i think carl was you know but i look back and again i have to remind people you know i mean in this day and age of the contracts you think i i back then i went to quinn martin who's a big big television producer and carl moan said i like to leave i have a contract and i like to leave and i mean today you say but I'd like to leave. And, I mean, today you say that, you say, yeah, fat chance. I mean, they both said, hey, I know how much this means to you.

Go for it. It's okay. So it was towards production. And that seemed like a weird jump in and of itself, right? You're leaving because you want to get into. Producing, not stepping into acting. And what was the story like? Because I know that it's probably something you've talked about.

But, you know, in terms of how Cuckoo's Nest worked, getting from, because I know there was tension with Keezy, right? There was. And it went from, your dad had, what, the rights to the stage play? No, he acquired the rights to the book. He acquired the book in galley form. He owned the book. Kirk did. Kirk did.

1959. Because he wanted to play McMurphy. Kirk did Kirk did 1959 because he wanted to play McMurphy yeah he wanted to play McMurphy and he had the book adapted by Dale Wasserman into a play right and at the height of his career at the height of his career right after Spartacus he went back to New York and did this play made a commitment you know as a big movie star with the idea that it would, you know, be successful. He would receive some critical acclaim. Right.

And they would make it into a movie. Yeah. Didn't do well. Wasn't received well. The production maybe was a little too. The play was not. It was a little ahead of his time. And so, and it closed.

Yeah. It closed after a period of time he then tried for a few years to try to get it made into a film or to make a film but nobody wanted to do it he was obsessed with it well he was he liked it he had but it's like a lot of projects he had but he wanted to get it made into a film he couldn't get it meantime i go into. Now the book has come out three years, four years later. You take a 20th century American literature class. One Flew Over Cuckoo's Nest is a 20th century American lit. And it's great.

It's a fabulous story. It is. And so now I've gone off and I've started my career. And as I said, I've had a little bump in the road. We're out of feature films we're starting to do episodic television and I hear the dad is now selling his rights he's not he's given up trying to make it he wants to sell the rights when you say that that you know when you say that you do okay

so you did a few films and then you do episode television did that seem like a demotion to you I mean on some level were you gunning for for movies to be in movies and that doing episodic television at some point became like sort of like well this isn't where I want to go yeah well sure I mean I mean if you're fortunate enough to to get a a contract a movie contract and at that time it was with CBS films right and you're starring in movies right and I And I remember my first movie, my first movie was actually shown at Radio City Music Hall. Right. And one of my friends, you know, Radio City Music Hall has got 6,000 seats. And he called me.

How was it? It was a long pause. He said, Michael, there were more people on stage than there were in the audience. You see the Rockettes. The Rockettes were all... There was nobody. So, yeah. So, it was a demotion. Yeah. And there always was a big

separation between television and movies, where they have to pay to see. So, it was a double-edged sword. You got an incredible amount of education about the nature of working and acting, but you wanted to do bigger things. Well, I wanted to produce. I mean, if it wasn't for Cuckoo's Nest, I mean, I never thought about producing. I just had a passion for this project. I loved this book. So did you have to buy the rights from your old man? No. I said, let me run with it for a year, and then let me try to get it set up.

So it took longer than that. And he said, you know, he's very nice and give you an opportunity. But I said, no, we'll share the deal. You'll get the credit from your company, and I'll try to get you the part that you want to play. It's such a great part. So he has not forgiven me for this day that he didn't play that part. And I explained to him, and he sort of blames it on me.

And I said, wait a minute, what happened to directors having the choice? But years had passed, and he was older then, too, and his career had changed. So, like, oh, he was too old to play McMurphy at that time. A little older, yeah. He was a little older, exactly. So you brought Milos in? Yeah, I did. I brought Milos Forman in.

I developed a screenplay originally with a guy named Larry Haubin. It was a friend of mine. And then I went through some of my father's back files of the people that expressed interest over the years. And I found this group led by Saul Zantz out of Fantasy Records in Berkeley, California. Yeah. Time has not done his reputation well. Well. With the Creedence Clearwater.

With the Creedence Clearwater. Yeah, yeah. Certainly as a film producer who also did Amadeus and others, he had great taste. There has been, obviously, a lot lot of discussion debate with credence clearwater and john fogarty yeah yeah zance can't dance sure zance can't dance and yeah he took the whole catalog they yeah all of that yeah um but he was my partner who did a uh a great job together but that wasn't it just turned out i mean there was just a passion for that project. I didn't think about being a producer.

But I realized that with my four years of 104 hours of streets that I had learned a whole hell of a lot about producing. Right. You know, I knew a lot. And so it paid off. Sure. And Nicholson, you know, did you know him before? No. I mean, he wasn know him before? No. And he wasn't

necessarily our first choice. One of the directors that expressed strong interest for was Hal Ashby. Oh, yeah. They just got a new doc about him. They got a new documentary out about him. He was quite a guy. And you had Harold and Ma

and the landlord being there. Shampoo. Shampoo, yeah. Oh, and the last detail. Last detail. But that was the whole point because it didn't work out with Hal. Hal and Saul didn't hit well, and when we got with Milos, we were trying to find out who to play McMurphy, and Marlon Brando turned the part down.

Gene Hackman turned the part down, and I know it's hard to think about Jack Now because he looks so perfect for the part, but at that point Jack Was sort of the gentleman the gentleman young man. Yeah an easy rider He was the intellect college guy all of that and Hal said listen. I just did this picture It hasn't come out yet called the last detail And Hal said, listen, I just did this picture. It hasn't come out yet called The Last Detail. Oh, that's good.

Where I think you'll see a Jack that you hadn't seen before. And so he showed me some outtakes and some scenes from the picture, which I then shared with Zach. Yeah. And so we went in that direction. Milos, for a while, was infatuated with Burt Reynolds. Yeah. May he rest in peace.

Yeah. And if you think about it, Burt would have been a very interestingly and charming choice. And I love the- Could have done it. Milos' lines are, no, no, Burt, he's got cheap charisma. Yeah. Cheap charisma.

What is that? It's a great line. But he's a wonderful guy. It was an interesting idea, but he did okay with Jack. Yeah, and the movie turned out incredibly well, obviously. Yeah, right. I watch it once a year, I think.

There are certain movies that I watch once a year. I just watched Wall Street again, actually, on the airplane. Uh-huh. Your movie. I haven't seen that for a while. You haven't? Oh, you're great in it. Yeah.

Yeah, it was a great part. So what was it like? Before we move off of Cuckoo's Nest, what was the dynamic with Keezy? Well, when we first got together with Saul, is that my partner? Yeah. We went up to Ken, to say to Ken, and we offered Ken a writing deal to write the screenplay. Right. And we said, listen, you write the screenplay, and um and we said listen you write the screenplay and we gave

him a percentage yeah and so ken wrote the screenplay and like a lot of authors of books uh screenwriting and the visual of a movie is a different medium yeah and the screenplays didn't work out so he did write something he wrote a. Well, the whole book is from the point of view of the chief. The book is from the point of view of the chief and can continue to have the movie from the point of view of the psychedelic of the chief and that vision and all of that. Yeah, the poetry of that.

And so it didn't work out. And you were trying to make a, like it was on your mind that you needed to sell this movie. So you weren't making some sort of experimental film. Well, it was a, I mean, it was a unique project. It was just a point of view that we didn't share. And we realized in hindsight, we shouldn't have, that it's extremely difficult for a writer of a novel to be able to open himself up to think in terms of a screenplay.

But in any event, we got into a contractual, silly kind of contractual issue, which I think was as much in hindsight about saving face where Ken said, well, basically he said, I get a percentage whether I do or not he said i get a percentage you know whether i whether i do or not so i get that percentage but then i should i should obviously get another percentage and and it was like whoa whoa whoa no no no no and he didn't want to have lawyers no lawyers involved but he didn't want to have lawyers like that you wanted to have hell's angels do it do the

negotiation so it was unfortunate you know i spent time with him up there and he was obviously a you know key member and was on the bus. All up on the hog farm, he went up there. Yeah, we were up there and all of that. And he was an amazing guy and is the only unfortunate and disappointing part of this whole story. Right. this whole story. And it ended up, we kept maintained his interest in escrow for him as this struggling debate went

on and on. And then finally, Saul said, look, we're going to donate your share to the University of Oregon to the Ken Kesey, and create the Ken Kesey Chair in American Literature. And he settled. Oh, really?

That was it? And there's a story that he claimed to never have gone to see the movie. That's what he said. Yeah. And there was some story about a Hell's Angel. What was it? No, someone asked him about why hadn't he seen the movie. He said, well, if a bunch of Hell's Angels came up to your door and said,

we're out front raping your daughter, you want to come watch? Right. Yeah. Do you know that story? Something like that? Yeah. The mythology? Yeah. we're out front raping your daughter you want to come watch right yeah do you know that story something like that yeah it was it was a mythology yeah it was uh it was it was it was unfortunate yeah yeah it really was and um it was the it was the one part because it was a magical experience oh yeah and i always wished that he could have been part of and you pull your buddy

danny in well danny had been devito uh had been in the first off-Broadway production because after the failure. As Martini? As Martini. Because after my dad's failure of the Broadway production, then the book came out and then the play was revived and became a very big kind of off-Broadway, San Francisco productions, off-Broadway in New York

and Danny was the first guy that was cast because I dragged Milos down to see the production and he had Martini down, so he was the first cast out of the box. Yeah, it's a great character. I just get sort of caught up with the nostalgia of it, I guess. No, it was a magical story

because it was all about innocence. I mean, we look back in hindsight. Yeah. We shot in a state mental hospital in Oregon in January. I mean, it gets dark at 3 o'clock

and 3.30 in the afternoon. Yeah. The whole thing could have been done on a set. Right. It said, you know, that the magic

of finding the Indian, the big chief, Will Sampson. Oh, it's great. Finding this amazing guy was just, you know, a fortunate part. And all those cats. Christopher Lloyd's in there. And the guy, who was Cheswick?

Yeah, Cheswick. Yeah. He was on. Yeah. I thought I might have to leave Cheswick up there for a while. So then, like, and then after that experience of producing, you kind of leaned into acting for a while? Well, no. Now I'm an Academy Award winning producer.

I got an Oscar as a producer, and yet I'm a television actor who's trying to get into feature films. And there was a big disparity back then. Before me, there's only two guys i could think of was who had been in television shows yeah clint eastwood and steve mcqueen who had made the transfer from television into feature films did you know those guys yeah i knew steve mcqueen produced one of the first movies i ever did so i knew steve which one oh it's called adam at 6 a.m i got to know ste Steve pretty well. He's a lovely man. Yeah?

Yeah. And then you went out, so you're still part of, like you wanted to get credibility as a film actor. Yeah, and I couldn't, so that's why I started producing The China Syndrome, and I got a part for me in the picture. It was a secondary lead. Jack Lemmon, huh? Yeah, Jack Lemmon, Jane Fonda.

How was Jack? Jack was the best. This is a picture, again, took a bit longer to set up. He waited a year. This was a strong issue, nuclear power. The meltdown was an issue that was very dear to his heart. And he waited a year for that part. Jane Fonda was great. It's a great movie. It was an issue that was very dear to his heart. And he waited a year for that part. Jane Fonda was great.

It's a great movie. It was. And then Romancing the Stone, again, was a picture where I was fortunate to get into it. Then I was producing pictures. So you produced and starred in that, right? Yeah, I produced that. But then I had pictures like Starman, which Jeff Bridges did, which I was not approved. I was not approved by the studio as an actor, as an actor for that.

With John Carpenter? Well, John Carpenter. You directed it, right? Yeah. That's a good movie. It was an interesting movie. Yeah. And you just produced it, but you wanted to be in it.

Yeah, I wanted to be in it. You wanted to be the main guy? I wanted to be the Jeff Bridges part, yeah. And this is after Romancing the Stone, which was a huge hit, right? Yeah. So you're like a movie star for that movie, like the adventurous comedic lead almost of Romancing the Stone. Well, yeah, but even then I was fortunate to get, I mean, it was a tight budget picture. If you're producing, you couldn't cast yourself?

I couldn't cast myself. Because the studio said, what do we know about you? Well, they just, that's the way you were approved in terms of- Carl Malden's in terms of carl malden's not here well yeah it's not television yeah right it's not television so it took it was still a fight when you're making millions of dollars for these guys yeah no one's willing to gamble on it no no so when did that turn around for me ultimately it really ultimately didn't turn around until the year 85 with the combination of Fatal Attraction and Wall Street. The two pictures came out within three months of each other. Fatal Attraction was a huge commercial success as well as sort of viscerally hitting a note. And then Wall Street, I had a great part

and got the Oscar. So that was the year that both took me, I think, out of the shadow of my father's shadow as well as really established me. It's so weird because I wouldn't have thought

looking back on it that it would be seen that it took you, like that was a struggle. Because you're a big mocker and show business at that point right as a producer as a producer right but in your heart you're like why can't i yeah no it was it was uh yeah and you know and it's it's it's this is the one area where being your father's son is not really a big benefit because people say, oh, you know, you look just like your father. It's just like, you know,

and you're trying to establish your own identity and create who you are. And so sometime, interestingly, my father in his career early on, he played a lot of sensitive young men roles. But it wasn't until he did a picture called The Champion where he played a prick, the champion uh-huh where he played a prick you know a boxer and a tough guy yeah and for me it wasn't until wall street where i play a gordon gecko tough uh guy that really helped identify my character and sort of

separate me from morally compromised sympathetic character i don't know if gefko is completely sympathetic i wouldn't say sympathetic. Human. Yeah, human. And that's basically been the crux of my career is the gray area. I am, and it might be, we talked earlier

about the Vietnam War where the biggest difference I see is between black hats and white hats in World War II and the westerns and good guys and bad guys. And then for me, from the 60s, 70s and everything, it was more of a gray area as to who's right and who's wrong,

what's good and what's bad. Now we have what's true and what isn't. Exactly, exactly. And that is an area that I guess I didn't consciously do it. Yeah. But has overcome. If I look back over all my projects, is this area of people struggling to do the right thing but still have avarice and those desires and everything else. And how do you do the right thing or not?

That's interesting. Because it's interesting because the 70s movies, during the war, you know, where these antiheroes that sort of became championed were more sort of existentially challenged, you know, as opposed to morally challenged. Exactly. And your dad, too, like, he played a lot of heavies. Yeah.

I mean, Out of the Past is one of my favorite movies. Yeah. I fucking love that movie. Ace in the Hole. Oh, Ace in the Hole. Jesus, it was hard to find that movie for a while. So as you do these movies, and then you did a couple where the guy, you were at both sides of it. You were the guy having the affair in, what, Fatal Attraction.

Perfect Murder. The one with Demi Moore. Oh, that was Disclosure. Oh, that was disclosure oh that was another where you played the other side of that yeah yeah i'm surprised i've been i'm i shouldn't even mention this but during this whole me too movement and everything i've been surprised that people haven't jumped out at that picture because that was a little it was a little in your face where we kind of did a reverse thing on harassment. We had a female boss.

Yeah, why it hasn't been used as an example. Yeah, it seems like they're more concerned. It's a tougher thing in terms of holding people accountable for the work they did. They're more concerned with what you did. Right. Right? But so as you continue to act, I mean, you were able to really have a shot at everything, you know, action hero. I tried.

I mean, I think the thing that I'm most proud about now is that you're right. Most actors sort of find a mold or a certain identity. And people say to me all the time, they say, Michael Douglas, you know um i when i see your name i don't know what it's gonna be yeah but i know it's gonna be good right and i go all right man thank you i'll take that it's true yeah you know so it's true you bring yourself to all of it there's something about you that we we all kind of know i think that's the nature of like yeah i mean you're a movie star you know and you're a great actor but like there's something about you're not a character actor per se i like i love to do character right but you're gonna be you know you're happy to see michael douglas you know you're not one of those like

who's that guy i see that guy all the time right you know you're not ned baity right not yet god bless him still fighting my weight though you've played presidents you played you know you've done the whole the whole thing so like but there's certain characters like also in the kominsky method as well because there's a movie about old guys right and about guys that are dealing with those issues uh but like you've played it seems like there's been a lot of points in your life where you've played characters that you relate to certain elements of your life. I mean, like Traffic, that was a hell of a role.

Traffic was a great, I keep up on current events. I mean, I read a lot of newspapers. I like to think that I'm sort of in touch with stuff. And so, you know, people, I do take pride in sort of in in touch with stuff and and so you know people I do take pride in sort of learning what the zeitgeist you know is so whether it's a movie like Falling Down um that was that was an insane movie yeah who directed that uh Joel Schumacher I mean Falling Down like that part like how do you know I mean because like out of all the films you've done that

I I've seen and remember that that was something where you almost lost yourself. Yeah. Like where like you could watch that movie and, you know, it wasn't a Michael Douglas movie in a sense. Right, right. So what was the story around taking that part and how did you approach it? I just, it was just Ebi Roswith, a beautifully written script. It was just Ebi Roswith, a beautifully written script. And to me, it was right after the Vietnam War was over.

And it's hard for a lot of people to remember. Oh, the character. Not the movie wasn't made then. Yeah, no, the character, the whole thing. And people kind of forget in L.A., but L.A. was sort of the defense center. It wasn't about movie business. We had our major defense contractors were here in los angeles for you with the rockets yeah and all and and and so here was a guy who had you know was a patriot in the country and was pink slipped yeah for his job in the defense contracting business because the war was over we don't need you anymore yeah and who kind of just lost it yeah you know

and was in a divorce with his wife and this and that and lost his identity and this vision of having a, leaving his car, caught in a traffic jam and walking across LA and dealing with every

politically incorrect situation that might happen to you. It was like, it was picaresque. It was like Candide. Yeah. It just gets worse and worse. It was like, like it was, picaresque. It was like Candide. Yeah. It just, you know,

from, it just gets worse and worse. It wasn't funny. Well, some of them were funny and that's the other area. I love, I mean,

it's a lot to do with the Kaminsky method. I love nervous laughter. I love dramedies, you know, in this area where you go, because that's what life is about,

isn't it? Well, yeah, the scene with Forrest, what was it, what's his name, you know, from, yeah, with Forrest, what was it, what's his name, you know, from,

yeah, Fred Forrest, Fred Forrest, yeah, that almost got comedic, like, he played that so broad, or the Korean grocery store,

yeah, yeah, yeah, and, and, and your reactions, that's true, there was definitely comedy in there,

there was, you know, dark comedy, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love dark comedy, because like,

I, I do, I'm a sick guy, yeah, no, no, I love it too, but like, I just like sick guy. No, no, I love it too. But like, I just like in really thinking about it, it is almost a comedic character, that character.

Because of like, just that, you know, it's like life is shitting on him. Well, you just can't believe the absurdities, just the insanity of life not making any sense. But like, when you immerse yourself in a role like that one and not unlike, you know, like Komitsky Method, this new series on Netflix, you know, I think it's pretty close

to familiar territory for you as a person, you know, in terms of show business, maybe in terms of who you are. But when you really think about something like Falling Down or like playing Liberace,

Right. Well, Liberace is a guy, but this Falling Down guy, I mean, when you approach as an actor, what do you got to turn on or off in you to sort of like, you know, to peel away at that thing? Do you think about that? You know, it's the writing. It's the writing.

Oh, it is, yeah. And you picked, you know, Ebi Rosemith is just really, really good writing. Right. And, you know, then you work, Jack Nicholson always accuses me, Mikey D, you're a hair actor, you know. I mean, different ways, you know.

So you've got to cut your hair, give me a cut. Falling down was a flat top. But you find it different ways, you know. Gordon Gekko was, you know, Pat Riley. You know, you find different kinds of hair thing. You find different stuff that kind of helps. It's true. It's true.

You put the pants on and you become the guy, you know, that's what I do. And that's the fun is there's basically two ways of acting. You know, one is putting on the mask and the clown and, and that's the joy of character acting. That's the fun of character acting is you create this kind of character. It gives you all the fun of character acting. Sure, yeah. Is you create this kind of character. Yeah. It gives you all the freedom in the world.

Yeah. Or you're doing stuff where you're stripping everything off. You're going down to your skeleton. Yeah. And that. So for the longest time, somebody told me early on about acting and said, you know, the camera can tell when you're lying. Uh-huh.

Ooh. Yeah. Ooh, the camera can tell when you're lying. Ooh. Ooh, the camera can tell when you're lying. So earlier in my career, acting was so painful because I was dealing so much with reality and trying to be truthful and acting was painful.

And then one day I said, wait a minute, I lie every day. At least once a minute. I lie every day. At least once a day. I lie about something. That's what it's about. I lie. I mean, and all of a sudden I realized, wait a minute, acting is all about lying.

It's just being a good liar, isn't it? And I sound so silly now, but it totally freed me up and gave me, almost made me, I started laughing with the freedom that it gave me. I can do anything I want. So it's a contradiction to the camera always not the truth. Exactly. That was bullshit. Exactly. You look at the cameras, like John Lovett's character.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to do this. Right? Yeah. You can say anything you want. Now we have a president that makes a career out of lying. exactly and 40 of the country somehow believes it what the fuck what and so when uh uh i didn't realize you produced the rainmaker yeah francis coppola that was i love that

fucking movie matt damon was so good in that role it's a great script it's like one of these weird like you know coppola some of these cats that you came up with, they get known for this weird swath of time and then they get a little inconsistent, but The Rainmaker's a great, solid movie.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it was. Oh, my God. Yeah, but he really, it was his baby and Francis was, you know, it was great.

Francis, was he champion that whole thing? Well, we brought him in and he took care of it. He was always wonderful in emails, like the first time I knew about emails, but he would, you know, keep you abridged and everything, and he took care of it. He was always wonderful at emails, like the first time I knew about emails.

But he would keep you abridged and everything, what he wanted to do and what he was doing. But you were in the hands of somebody. Yeah. I had gotten to know him from when I was in San Francisco on the television show. Oh, you did? Because he had that building right downtown. American Zoetrope. In North Beach forever.

North Beach, right. The big copper building. Right, and then La Tosca, a little bar right beneath there. Yeah, now they got the winery and everything. All this stuff. So when you do something like, what was your experience in,

because traffic's heavy, man. I mean, your story in that movie is heavy. You got a daughter who strung out and you're the drug czar and you've had your own experience with drugs. Right. You got sober? Yeah. You mean got sober? Yeah.

You mean me personally? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was in rehab in 1991, probably more alcohol, but some of the drugs were part of Did you stay off it? Not really. I mean, I think everything became a question of moderations and all of that.

But yeah, just not like the way you wake up in the morning anymore and kids and going on. But you have to, yeah, I think you all have to be careful. I've had addiction issues in my family. I've lost a brother. I knew him. Eric. I knew him from the comedy scene. Yeah.

Because back in New York, he used to walk around all sweaty with his dog. Yeah, exactly. And Eric lost Eric. That's sad. And my oldest boy was a heroin addict. Oh, really? He spent seven and a half years in federal prison. No kidding.

I didn't know that. Yeah, for a nonviolent drug offense. How's he? He's fine, thank you. He's doing really well. He's an actor, a really good actor. Oh, good. He's getting it going.

That's hard to get through. It's really hard to come back from that. It's good to hear. Yeah, yeah. No, he's doing good. But I think you learn about genetics amongst other things that you got to be more careful. You saw it in your family? Yeah.

Yeah. So both sides. So, and, you know, I think my younger ones, it's been great. They, I mean, unfortunately with the difficulties. Your new ones. My new ones. So they keep a much closer eye on it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you have a conversation about it. Yeah. How's it going? Exactly. Well, yeah? Yeah, and you have a conversation about it on the going. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's great. When you did

the Liberace movie, I've watched that thing like five times, man. You're so fucking good at it. The two of you are too good at it. I can't, like, did you know Liberace?

I did. I mean, not well, but I did. He was around, right? He was around when my father, that time, they had a place in Palm Springs. I would go out on holidays and visit. Yeah, yeah. And I do remember one day, we were driving home.

Everybody had convertibles back then. Nobody worried about the sun. But there was, you know, dad stopped. This guy pulled up in a Rolls Royce convertible. It was a bright day. All I remember is I could hardly see him. You were a kid? How old were you?

I was maybe 16. Uh-huh, yeah. And I could hardly see him just because the sun was banging against his gold and he had diamonds. And it was just, he was simmering. It was, hey, Lee, how are you? Hi, Kirk, how are you? You know, and it just was the best. He was a sweet guy, right?

Lovely guy. Everybody loved it. Wonderful host. Yeah, yeah. And a great guy. And, you know, that project, you know, for a lot of reasons, meant so much for me because, you know, I had a stage four cancer bout, which I was fortunate enough to get through.

That was recently. Well, six, seven years ago now. But, you know, it was a time, you know, I had two other friends had the same cancer I had. Larry Hagman, you know, was one. And then Nick Ashford of Ashford and Simpson. That's how Hagman died? It was a mouth cancer? Yeah. It started there?

Throat cancer. Throat cancer. Yeah. From smoking? Don't know what. Yeah. I don't know what. Wasn't there some rumor going around from eating pussy?

Was that? I don't know. Who started that one? Well, no. There is an HPV-16 virus, which is an HPV-16 virus, which is HPV-16 virus, which can cause cervical cancers and throat cancers and this and that. Yeah. And I did have HPV-16 virus. Oh, okay.

But also, if you have that virus, it's the best opportunity you have of overcoming your cancer. So I got a little trouble just for spreading the message. There's a vaccination that is out there and would encourage all younger people before they become sexually active to take the vaccination and it'll limit about half a dozen different cancer viruses. From the HPV. From the HPV. You got into trouble for saying that?

Yeah. Yeah, because it was taken the wrong, you know, the tabloids pick it up and they make it, you're trying to do a public service and they turn it into dirt. But yeah, so anyway, but one of the things,

mine was getting dentists, for instance. It was very simple for dentists when you went in for dentistry, just to stick their fingers down the back of your tongue and throat to check for tumors, which they were not doing before. And now many, many drug doctors, any of your listeners, I would encourage you to ask their dentists to have them. Oh, really? Yeah.

And you were able to, it was advanced age. So he spread it, yeah. So it was advanced age. But so anyway, getting through, the Liberace thing came, and I was so excited about it, so excited about it. And then Matt was already there and Steven Soderbergh. Then they came to me, I was just in remission, and they said, you know,

each of us, we got projects to do, we're going to put this off for a year, we're going to put this off for a bit, we got projects to do, and I was heartbroken, because I thought, oh no, this is not going to happen, but the truth was, and you know, I still get emotional about this, both guys knew. I mean, I was happy to be alive. I didn't really look at myself. They could look at me and I was 30 pounds underweight. There's no way this guy does not look. From chemo.

From chemo and radiation. And so they put it on themselves. They said, let's wait a year. And let Michael get his weight back and all of that and so and what i was able to do was have an extra year to work with the piano and work on the voice you know and all of that stuff and it just made it so much more rewarding when it all came about and i imagine the struggle with with Liberace's disease, like he must have been right at the forefront of your recollection. The struggle with which?

With his disease. Yeah. Like with AIDS. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That he couldn't talk about. Right. But like, you know, your immediate memory of that fear and that. Yeah.

immediate memory of that fear and that yeah but i look back and again matt damon you know would i you know it was fine for me at my age to do liberace and do a character and gay guy dying would i in the prime of my career you know as a leading man have done this i don't know you know so i mean matt damon i take my hat off he dove into that project man and was he's like he's really that the best of his generation really when he puts his mind to it yeah it's really something else yeah I'm impressed with him too that scene in the hot tub where you go like who you're talking to Right. I'll wait the whole fucking movie to hear you say that. Yes. So let me ask you a question about like a couple of odd questions.

I'm going to talk a little bit about the Kaminsky method. Like when you, like you did the remake of The In-Laws. Right. And you, it was you and Albert Brooks? Yeah. And did you, you didn't do the first one. You didn't produce it, did you? No, no, no.

But that's Alan Arkin who you're now working with. Alan Arkin, Peter Falk. Alan Arkin was in the original. Yeah, Serpentine Shell, Serpentine. Right, exactly. I always wonder about why things are remade. I mean, I understand sequels. Yeah.

You know, but it seems like there's a lot of stuff that gets remade. And, you know, if you have a connection to the first one, you're sort of like, why am I going to do that again? No, it's true. But it's a funny movie yeah it was it was a funny picture was you know a gig it's a gig that came up and quite honestly for me and this is part going into the Kaminsky method which is comedy yeah uh I love comedy I'm not inherently a comedian. Right. I'm fascinated about comedy. Yeah. I think comedy is always shortchanged. I think we all love our funny friends, right?

Yeah, yeah. When it comes Oscar time, nobody ever acknowledges a comedic performance. Right, right, right. Which is so much more difficult than drama. We all know how to be dramatic. Sure, sure. We all know how to be dramatic. Sure, sure. We all know how to be confrontational. Yeah, yeah.

Sad and tense. It's the people that find that comedic interpretation of life or can make you chuckle. Yeah, yeah. So- Reynolds is great at it. Ryan. He's fantastic.

Oh, my God. I mean, the Deadpool stuff is just unbelievable. But so I've- As to the in-laws, that's probably why I definitely want to do that, because I'm always trying to find out, which is what brought me to Chuck Lorre and the Kaminsky Method, one of the reasons why I was so excited to do this. I mean, Chuck Lorre is such a good writer.

Yeah, it's a tricky thing you're doing. Like, you know, like when he came to you with it, did he have Arkin already? No, no, I was the first person. And have you worked with Alan Arkin before? Had I? Yeah. No.

I hadn't worked, nor had Chuck. I mean, Alan's got a really, he's out of the Second City. He's got a, you know, comedic background. Oh, no, he's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's fine, but no background. Oh, no, he's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's fine. But no, we had not. Is he pleasant to work with? I'm sort of fascinated with that guy. You? Yeah, he's, yeah, he's, yeah. All right, all right. He's great.

No, he is. I have a great relationship. I love working with him. And he's great. But there's a little bit of that cantankerous quality that we love in the character. Sure, sure. That's really it. That is in Alan. Although he would not want to admit it.

Right. But he's got a little wonderful quality. He's a brilliant actor. And the two of you, it seems to me that at the ages you guys are at, that this stuff that's in the Kaminsky Method, the things you're dealing with as aging men are very, you know, they're happening. They are happening. And the thing and the beauty is that there's never very much fun that you can find about getting old. Chuck Lorre, he finds getting old funny. And so one of the things that I'm just loving about that is finding these comedic moments

in part by getting old and two guys who've known each other for a long time and together. And that's the interesting thing I noticed about watching it. I'm about halfway through, so don't ruin it for me. But the way he writes, it's a type of writing. Like, you know, when you see a sitcom like The Big Bang Theory or Two and a Half Men or whatever the other ones he does, that's a three-camera setup.

You're going joke to joke. So then when you do a single-camera thing like this or more of a film-like kind of thing, and he's still writing bits, but he has to tweak it a bit. It's almost like Neil Simon in a way where the dialogue is not essentially organic, but it has to be played properly for it to work.

And you guys are doing great at it. Thank you. It's a very astute difference between i mean the the the one camera versus four cameras like night and days i mean i i'm sitting now in such envy of the big bang theater they're like 35 hour weeks yeah maybe 40 hour max yes right yeah we're doing 70 you know yeah right it's it's entirely different kind of it's like it's like uh it's like a vaudeville it's almost like a stage production right you know that it's just two-dimensional in the sense that you know the audience is right out

in front you have a live audience in front yeah with them four cameras yeah and whatever else versus uh you know actually just shooting you know shooting kind of real scenes and locations. But I'm loving it, and I can't say enough about the writing. This is why all the good writers, screenwriters included, have moved over to television. Because in television and the streaming areas, not only are you a writer, you can be the showrunner, you're the producer of the show.

It's much more financially beneficial and now with this stuff with the kominsky method half a half hour comedy it can be 25 minutes long yeah it can be 35 minutes long yeah no commercials fuck shit piss whatever you want to say or do it's like a uh a movie yeah yeah so um i'm having a ball yeah and i think like uh it it's like a movie so I'm having a ball yeah and I think it's a generational thing I see what he's trying to do what you guys are doing

it's something that my parents could love but there's also an element where you're watching pros and you're seeing them interact with people of a different generation and you know it sort of definitely it definitely all works. I was very, you know, I was happy to see you guys. Thank you.

That's great to hear because we're still, you know, but you're right. I mean, I play a L.A., Los Angeles acting teacher, Sandy Kaminsky. You know, we've got a lot of students. And so we have this whole, and obviously, you know, assuming there will be upcoming seasons, we're going to, you know, assuming there will be upcoming seasons, we're going to develop these younger kids that are in the classes and all of that and deal with this generation. Oh, okay.

So that's the next phase. I would think so. And working with Chuck is great? I don't know how he does it, man. I mean, he promised us that he would be there, like, every day, and he was. And, you know, I'm looking. He's got the Big Bang. He's got Young Sheldon.

He's got Mom. You know, it's just an amazing. He's got all the money. Yeah, he does. Yes, he does. So now you just come out here to work. You're mostly in the East Coast? I live East Coast.

I'm just out here for a few days. Emmys are coming up on Monday. They asked me to do something for that. Well, they used to be more fun, didn't they, the award shows? Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, everything seemed to be a lot more fun. I mean, we had more autonomy in the 70s and 80s. It wasn't such vertically integrated.

I mean, studios, you went to the head of a studio, and that was the boss. That was the boss. Now it's just a division head of some huge vertically integrated company. And also, I remember, I think it was Nicholson talking about what the Golden Globes used to be. Oh, man, it was rough. It was crazy, right?

It was insane between the amount of drinking that was going on, what was going on in the bathrooms, what was happening. It wasn't on TV. It wasn't on television, exactly. I was going to just say that's what changed all these awards was the fact that they had to clean up their act. To try to sell it. Yeah.

I had a funny story. I just remember I was saving up at the Golden Globes. Yeah. And I was nominated for the Golden Globes. I'm staying out. I'm staying out at the Bel Air Hotel. Yeah. And I'm getting ready to go to the Globes.

I come out in the lobby and there's George Harrison. Yeah. And he had just won Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and thing had come back. But because Paul hadn't shown up, I think there was some friction or whatever. Anyway, I was just talking to him. Just said, big fan, fantastic.

I go to the Golden Globes. I win. I took my mother. I win. By the time I finish all the press and everything and I come back out, everybody's going home. You know, you do all the press, go home. So I take my mother to their home.

I go back to the hotel. I'm feeling sorry for myself. You know, I sit there with my girlfriend. Where's the party? Yeah. Where's the party? Yeah. 12.30, my phone rings.

I said, yeah, hello, Michael? He said, yeah, it's George. George said, hey. Hi, George. Yeah, yeah. Me and my mate, we're just down here. We thought maybe Ian would come over. He said, yeah, yeah.

Come on. Come on over. So come on over. So come on over. So I knock, knock. They open the door. George Harrison walks in. Yeah. And Bob Dylan.

No. Bob Dylan with the biggest fucking dog I have ever seen in my life. I thought it was a small pony. Yeah. And he comes in and I order some caviar, a bunch of caviar. And Bob sits down. I'm not saying much. Bob's not talking.

George is not talking. The dog is walking. I got to look up over the top. The dog is walking back and forth in front of us. All of a sudden, the dog smells the caviar. Yeah. It smells. The next thing I know, it goes.

$150 a lick. I'm looking it's Bob Dylan's dog man it's Bob Dylan's dog when I keep looking at Bob Dylan I'm like hey you know what

he's not saying nothing you know so finally I see Bob hasn't said a word he finally opens his mouth he goes far out he likes caviar

that was it that was it that was all he talked that's all he said far out he likes caviar that's funny man it's funny too that like that moment I forget. That was it. That was it. That was all he talked. That's all he did. Far out, he likes caviar. That's funny, man. It's funny, too, that, like, that moment, that feeling of, like, you know, you've reached this success.

Like, you know, like, where's the party? There's no party. Yeah. And you're probably a huge fan of Bob Dylan, right? Oh, I agree. And you never met him before? Never met him before. That's the way it goes down?

Yeah, yeah. It's nice to still be a fan of somebody. Oh, yeah. Well, look, man. Oh, Ant-Man 2. You did both of those movies, right? Did the two Ant-Man pictures. We have Ant-Man and the Wasp is coming out in October now on the DVD.

DVD or whatever. The streaming. I just had Paul in there. He's a great guy. Yeah. Paul is a great guy. Very, very funny. He's a great guy. Yeah. Paul's a great guy. Very, very funny. He's funny.

He doesn't think he's funny. Yeah, no, he's just so wiggy. He's got a great, very dry. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm doing that. I did all that and they're going to probably

do another one of those and, you know, another season of the Kaminsky Method and I got a Chinese movie I went and did. What does that mean? It was a got a Chinese movie I went and did. What does that mean? It was a Chinese, Chinese movie.

I went over to China, and I went all by myself. I did a Chinese movie. I had one woman that couldn't bring anybody with me, and I had somebody translating for me. I had my sides in English. I didn't know what the hell a movie was about. You have no idea? Well, I've seen it now, yeah.

How is it? I was sort of, movie is fantastic. It was number one picture in China. It's a huge picture. It's a big special effects green screen. It was beautifully done. It was really interesting. Beautifully done.

I'm sort of a variation of a Gordon Gekko, Western, greedy, capitalist kind of villain character. It was fine. You just did it for fun, or you what? I did it for the money and I did it for, I love. To see China?

To see China. And, you know, my history is, you know, as a producer, I produce pictures all over the world in South Africa,

everywhere, you know? Yeah. So I enjoy it and it was a chance. And that's the beauty of movies is, is they're exactly the same crews.

Everything is the same. You get it. It's a wonderful international language that we all share. And do you still like, you're not adverse to doing smaller pictures? I saw Copelman's picture, The Solitary Man. Yeah. That's a heavy part, and that was good. I love them.

I'm not adverse to it, but I now enjoy the streaming area because Solitary Man or another picture called King of California where you bust your ass, you work for nothing. There's no marketing budget. You are the marketing budget. You got to go. And they ultimately end up playing for a week in theaters and they go direct to streaming anyway. Right. direct to streaming anyway right so the this these areas now with uh with the netflix hulu amazon and facebook my wife uh katherine has this has a series um called queen america yeah that she's

doing for facebook right it's coming out it seems more advantageous in a sense to like when you do a smaller movie that means you you you're expected to be involved in the promotion you don't really know if it's going to go anywhere, if anyone's going to see it, and the money's not good. So now with the streaming structures, you can get paid reasonably well, and people watch it. Yeah, and you have a built-in audience. Right. I mean, saying that, Netflix, I believe, is doing three times more feature films than

any studio, but they're going to release it day and date with their streaming out. The only problem I found being on a show on Netflix is that with the streaming thing is that, you know, it really is like they'll drop all of them. Right. Right. And then people will watch them in a day. Right. Right.

And then they're like, when's the next one coming? It's like, I don't know, fucking year. Yeah. And that's just the way it is. It's interesting. We're doing that. November 16th, you know, all eight episodes know fucking year yeah and that's just the way it is where it's an interesting that's we're doing that november 16th you know all eight episodes boom yeah that's it and then like you know the people they like the show but there's nothing you can do whereas at least back in the day it was you got to keep up with the story you got to sit down and

record it in a week it's a valid point i i don't know how they're yeah i mean i guess that's the way people want they're willing to wait what are they going to do that's the way it is now yeah well look you look great. I'm glad you're healthy. Thank you so much. Real privilege, honor, and a privilege to talk to you. It was a treat to be out here. Thanks, man.

Thank you. That was a great talk. I enjoy it. He's a very happy guy. Very kind of like great energy, man. It was great to kind of look at him and talk to him i feel that a lot like i'm just hey i'm looking at michael douglas for an hour and we're talking look at look at look at across from me it's michael douglas talking to my face he's

talking his face is talking to my brain and he's looking at my face and we're talking and it not only was he talking to my face out of his face face, he's also in the new Netflix original series, The Kaminsky Method, along with Alan Arkin. You can stream it starting tomorrow, November 16th. I found my wah-wah pedal. You know what that means. I think you do. ¶¶ Boomer lives. We'll be right back. and mozzarella balls? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region.

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