WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 971 - Martin Mull

Episode Date: November 26, 2018

Martin Mull has many job titles in front of his name: Actor, musician, painter, writer, comedian. But when he was younger, struggling to make it as any of those things, he couldn't afford heat for his apartment and had to borrow an electric blanket, which he also could not afford. Martin tells Marc how things turned around, how he found himself in music circles with the likes of Harry Nilsson and John Lennon, how his comedy performances led him to friendships with the likes of Steve Martin and Fred Willard, and how he wound up acting in everything from Roseanne to Sabrina the Teenage Witch to his new show The Cool Kids. This episode is sponsored by Nightflyers on SYFY, The New Yorker, and ZipRecruiter. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF, welcome to it. I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving holiday with whatever you did. I hope it went okay for you.

Maybe even better than okay. Maybe better than you thought. I just hope it did. I'll talk a little bit about it, but let me just get some stuff done up front here. First of all, my guest on the show is Martin Mull. Martin Mull was in some seminal, is that the word? Some very important comedy shows, some sort of groundbreaking comedy shows back in the day, Fernwood Tonight and Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. You've seen him on everything, but a lot of people don't realize he was a huge comedy act.

He's a very unique character. He's also a painter, and I've always was curious to talk to him. He seemed like a very sweet guy. He was actually for years on Sabrina the Teenage Witch, but a very Renaissance-like guy. He hadn't picked up a guitar in years, and he saw mine sitting here,

and we kind of got into it for a minute, spontaneously, and he was very excited. He, and he saw mine sitting here, and we kind of got into it for a minute, spontaneously, and he was very excited. He hadn't played in a long time. But anyways, it's a lovely interview with a lovely guy, and a very funny guy. He's currently on a show called The Cool Kids.

It's on Friday nights at 8.30, 9.30 Central on Fox. You can watch full episodes anytime at Fox.com. That said, look forward to that momentarily. Other than that, I will be doing a show at the Ice House December 2nd. That's a Sunday. It's going to be a 7 o'clock show, nice and early.

You can get it in without fucking up your day too much. I'm just doing a one-off at the Ice House. If you want to come, I enjoy doing them down there. It's a hot little room. So 7 o'clock on December 2nd, Sunday, I am doing a nice hour, a nice

full-long set at the Ice House. You can get tickets at the icehousecomedy.com or you can go to wtfpod.com slash tour. There should be a link there for the December 2nd show at the Ice House in Pasadena. It's in Pasadena, 7 o'clock p.m. So you won't even need a sitter that long, if at all.

Just leave the kids at home. How old are they? They can handle it. If you want to pick up some WTF merch, there's a Cyber Monday sale across the entire Pod Swag site. There's free shipping for every purchase so go get some wtf shirts or posters or whatever you want at pod swag.com slash wtf and it's free shipping today free shipping does that mean anything to you i think

so and also i wanted to mention uh ricky jay uh passed away Now, Ricky Jay, he's known as an actor, and you've seen him in a lot of things, a lot of David Mamet movies, a few Paul Thomas Anderson movies. He pops up here and there, but he was primarily known as a magician and one of the best swide-a-hand magicians that ever lived and a magician historian. He passed away on Saturday. Now, I don't know a lot about magic, and I don't know a lot about Ricky Jay's magic, but I do know about his acting, and I do know that he's always fun to see, especially in Paul Thomas Anderson movies. So as a means of tribute here, it's sad when people pass away. I never did a full episode with Ricky Jay, but we do have this little bit from Paul Thomas Anderson. He was on the show, and he brought up Ricky Jay, who was in Boogie Nights.

And it's an odd little story. It's a weird little memoriam or tribute, but it was a funny story. And this is me and Paul Thomas Anderson. He's talking about the film Boogie Nights, and Bert and Mark in this little bit are obviously Mark Wahlberg and Bert Reynolds, and he's talking about Ricky Jay, who passed away on Saturday. Ricky Jay had the obligation when Mark and Bert are in this big fight scene out at the pool, and he's coming at Mark.

He's saying, get out of here. You know, you're high and all this kind of stuff. And Ricky Jay had the job of holding Bert back, which is like not a job that Ricky should have. You know, Ricky has these magician's hands and everything else. And Bert started to improvise, and Mark says to something like, you know, I haven't been up for two days. He says, you don't look good. You've been up for two days.

You've been doing blowout and everything else. He says, I haven't been up for two days. And Bert said, nevertheless, you don't look good and I'm not going to shoot you this way. And so every time Bert would say nevertheless, I kept noticing something happened over Ricky's face. I said, what's going on? And he said, I can't. I'm almost going to laugh. I'm suppressing laughter when he says, nevertheless.

And I said, why? And he told me this great story of being at a football game where this woman is being introduced to sing the national anthem and her name is Helen Helen Helen Forrest or whatever it is

and uh they say now to sing the national anthem Helen Forrest and somebody in the stand screams

Helen Forrest sucks cock yeah and the announcer says nevertheless I thought it was a long story to tell Helen Forrest sucks cock. Yeah. And the announcer says, nevertheless. It's a long story to tell, but I swear, and every time I see, if the movie's on TV or I see it, you can see Ricky Jay when Burt says, nevertheless, just like.

Because of that trigger. Right. So, nevertheless, rest in peace ricky jay so i don't know how your your thanksgiving went but uh but i i was pleasantly surprised it was a smaller group uh i think this is what what changed things you know i got to my mother's a day earlier than i usually do i spaced out the cooking oh and by the way I did not mash those sweet potatoes. If you're following, if you're following along, if you're keeping up with the ongoing story of my neurotic bullshit,

I didn't mash the sweet potatoes. I kept them in mushy cubes. But I have to tell you something. That improvised recipe was the hit of the whole dinner. something, that improvised recipe was the hit of the whole dinner. The cubed sweet potatoes in coconut oil and garam masala and a little bit of salt just fucking killed. It did better than the stuffing, which is usually the big hit. And I've figured out a way to pace it out.

Prepping is the best. If you've got a couple of days to prep, make as much as you can before the dinner. So right when the turkey comes out of the oven and it's cooling, just stick it in there on 200 and warm that shit up for like an hour and then serve it up. And that way you've got a little space. There's no panic. You can sit and eat with everybody.

But I think the thing that made the difference this year, outside of the fact that everybody is getting older and things are sort of relaxing in that way. My mom and her boyfriend John and my aunt and her husband and my cousins and their kids, everyone's getting older, but it was really just pretty tight family dinner, this side of the family. There was no friends. There was no extended people from other people's families. It was just the core of this part of my family.

And we changed the seating up so there were three tables, but they were all in one room. And there was just something nice and organic about it. And all the cooking was done so everybody could move around. Everybody could talk to each other. But I don't know. It was a very warm and great Thanksgiving. And the turkey, for some reason, turned out fucking awesome. I mean, you know, I usually don't fuck up turkeys because I don't know how you cook it.

But we get them at this place called Delaware Farms down in Hollywood, Florida. And I think it's pretty fresh turkey. And I don't put nothing in it. I don't put nothing on it. And I don't baste it. I just put it in there. I think at like 375, you know, for like, it was like a 25 pounder. And for some reason, my mom's oven, it cooked inside three hours.

I checked the thigh temperature. I checked the breast temperature. The little thing popped up and I was like, fuck it. I guess it's done. And I took it out and maybe it was this. I let it sit for like two hours, you know, while I was cooking other stuff because I anticipated it would take longer to cook. And it was still warm by the time I cut it.

And it was fucking great. Maybe it was just a good turkey, but it was just, I don't know. You never know with that. There's a million ways to cook turkey and there's a million and one ways to fuck it up. And it just turned out perfect. And the company was perfect. My mom was thrilled.

My brother was there. He had never been to a Thanksgiving at my mother's since she lived down there. I mean, obviously, he's seen her. But he's never been there for this family event. So I guess it's the first time me and my brother spent a Thanksgiving with my mother since we were fucking kids.

Is that possible? It was just all very sweet. Sarah the painter came. She tolerated it. No, she had a nice time. But, you know, being with someone else's family, it's a lot. And believe me, my family can be a lot like anybody's family. And there was no political talk.

But all that being said, I hope yours went well as well. Okay? Potatoes. I'm glad I didn't mash them. There wasn't a lot of input from you people, but most of the input was like mash them. I didn't mash them. And I appreciate the input, but I didn't follow it. Yeah, I want your advice, but I don't want to follow it.

I got a couple of very touching emails. You know, I don't know what I set out to do here. I set out to do something and I'm doing it, but it seems to have a profound effect on people's lives and I appreciate that. Subject line, thanks. Hey Mark, this email is long overdue. I read Waiting for the Punch last spring and found it incredibly moving. last spring and found it incredibly moving. I'd heard much of the content through the podcast, but the depth of meaning and human connection that came through in the organization and selections hit me hard.

I mean that in the best possible way. Now I find myself in a different situation. I've been in the hospital for a month, no end in sight, being treated for a stubborn cancer. The nights are a little freaky, and what's been saving me is WTF. When I can't sleep or when the terror creeps in, I dial up an episode. I swear those conversations are all that's standing

between me and the abyss. So thank you for the book, and thank you for the podcast. No pressure, but please keep those great conversations coming. I'm counting on them. Best, Kate. Kate, I'll keep doing it, Kate them. Best, Kate. Kate, I'll keep doing it, Kate.

Get better, Kate. Can you hear me, Kate? Stay away from the abyss. Stay away from the abyss. Stay with us, Kate. I got a great conversation with Martin Mull coming up momentarily. Alright? I've edited out

locations and names on this one, but this is one of those other emails that I think deserves some attention because it does share some sort of message in the sense of communication and people connecting. Subject line, a crazy letter of appreciation. It's not insanely long, but it's a it's a nice story i'm a 22 year old college dropout and 12 days ago i was admitted into a psychiatric hospital after family members had finally discovered my hard drug use while battling

an increasing depression and thoughts of suicide i suffer from major depression disorder and for the first time in my life, I'm on the right type of medicine in which to control it. While that is a positive note, I've been battling the worst years of my life. After finally receiving a room within the psych ward, I met my roommate, a friendly but laid-back guy in his late 30s. After a day had gone by, I finally opened up and started a conversation with him. He's a singer-songwriter who works at a coffee shop.

At that time, he was reading your book, Waiting for the Punch. I'd mentioned to him that I knew who you were and enjoyed listening to your stand-up as well as some of your podcasts. He had told me that a friend of his gave him the book to help during his stay in the hospital. After getting to know each other a little more, I asked him to let me know how your book was whenever he finished reading. Cut to the next day, he was being released from the hospital. Unfortunately, I didn't get to say goodbye as he had left while they took us down to the cafeteria for lunch. When I came back to my room, I was in disbelief to see your book on the pillow of my bed. After coming to terms with the kindness for someone he barely knew, leaving a book, a good luck token, I started to read

the first page. If things still aren't clear by now, I want to thank you. Your book really helped me in one of the absolute darkest times of my life, and hopefully let you know how your book exchanged hands between two strangers in rough times within the psych ward. After five long days, I finally got out myself, and I even revisited your album, Thinky Pain, laughing all over again at your sense of humor and unique storytelling. Without sounding too full of myself, I think I'm a really funny guy and even have hopes

of being a comedian one day, although now I'm on antidepressants. I still struggle every day with trying to find a way out, a way out of living in a small shed, being in between jobs, and only having my grandmother and grandfather to help me. Thank you, Mark. P.S. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving. He put his name down, but I don't think it's necessary to be specific about any names or locations. Hey, buddy, I'm glad. I'm glad you're out.

I'm glad you're properly medicated, and I'm glad that things have turned around a bit. Go try an open mic. See how it feels. It might be the best thing you ever do. It might be the worst, but that might be good too. And please take care of yourself. Okay?

He knows who I'm talking to, even though I didn't mention his name. I just thought I'd protect him. You know? Martin Mull, as I said in the intro, is a fairly historic comedy figure. He was on two very groundbreaking shows at the time, Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, and Fernwood Tonight, which we talk about.

He did a bunch of amazing musical comedy records. He did some just music records. He's been an actor for years. You'd recognize him if you saw him. He's an accomplished painter. It's what he started out doing. And a lot of people don't exactly know who Martin is. But those of you who do, great.

We're going to talk. And those of you who don't, I'm happy to introduce you to Martin Mull. This is me talking to Martin Mull. He's on the new Fox show called The Cool Kids, which is on Friday nights at 830, 930 Central. You can watch full episodes anytime at Fox.com. This is me and Martin Moe. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business Podcast Creative. need insurance. Don't let the I'm too small for this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Yeah. Where's the volume? Yeah. Sounds good, right? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I popped your string right away. Yeah, I popped that fucking G string.

Boom. Oh, Jesus. Hey, that was fun. Yeah. I don't do this anymore i don't never play no that was really a treat thank you yeah buddy um francis coppola does this uh literary magazine get on the mic will you okay get on the mic already all right francis coppola does this literary magazine is it new uh that's about a year old uh he does it i think quarterly or something like that what doesn't francis coppola do now well he makes wine he makes wine he's doing literary magazines anything but filmmaking but he uh had me do all the used all my artwork as the entire that's great man so if you wanted

to see what i do as a painter that's great i knew you were a painter because it was interesting i knew i knew before that though but i i had gus van zant in here uh-huh and he like remembers you from college that's amazing did you know that yeah we're both risdyites but he said you were older yeah well i'm older than anyone no you're not i've definitely had older people. Really? Yes. I don't know. I just turned 75, and I realized, geez, I'm starting to get into a fairly rarefied atmosphere. Yeah. You're one of those guys who, like, in my life, I'm 55.

You've just always been there. Like, Martin Mull's always been there doing something throughout my entire adult life. Well, I realize I've been doing this business. Forget the painting and all that stuff, but I've been in this show business for 50 years it's been 50 years it's amazing that's wild yeah where'd you where'd you grow up though where are you born uh born in chicago which sounds like the first line of a blues it is the first line of a voice 1943 you have to put the year into that's yeah get the lyric right that's right and i moved when i was two to a very uh small town outside of cleveland about 30 miles west wow why'd that happen north ridgeville my father got a job working for uh the naca which is now the nasa but at that time it was national aeronautics and

something what was he an engineer or? He was an acoustics engineer. He was actually working. So you come from sound. Yeah. No, he was an electric nerd. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And did you have that stuff around the house? He built our first TV.

He built it? He built it. It was a three-inch screen, and the console, Mark, was easily the size of a refrigerator. The three-inch screen? And here's this little friggin' three-inch screen where I learned to love the Cleveland Indians. Yeah. And the Cleveland Browns and Roller Derby. Could you buy TVs at that point, or did he just fabricate one?

I think he could. I think it was just, first of all, lack of funds and a challenge. Yeah. To build a TV. Yeah. And what'd your mom do? She was a housewife, made macaroni and cheese. That was it? That was and a challenge. Yeah. Yeah. To build the TV. Yeah. And what'd your mom do? She was a housewife, made macaroni and cheese. That was it?

That was pretty much it. Yeah? She didn't work or nothing? No. Oh. That's the way it goes back then. Yeah. Macaroni and cheese was the memory.

And the town was so small that we had a six-man football team because there was not 11 senior boys. And that was true of the other towns in the conference, too. It was all six-man football. But it never caught on, six-man football? It didn't catch on, no. So you just grew up there outside. So Cleveland was your lifeline?

It kind of was, but I never tapped that lifeline. I just stayed home and raked leaves and jumped in them and climbed apple trees and drew constantly, constantly drawing. That was your thing? Yeah. The drawing? Yeah. And you had siblings?

I had a brother two years my junior, and then along came a sister later on, ten years my junior. They around? My brother's up in Oregon running around, and my sister is going under the name of Anadeya Judith, and she is quite well-known in the world of chakras and things of that ilk. She's a mystical aligner? Yeah. I'm about as cosmic as a doorstop, so I don't know much about it, to be perfectly honest. Well, nobody does. It's a combination of things.

You know, you pull a lot of different disciplines of sort of meditative and healing qualities, and you wrap them up and do a profession. Yeah, I'm still of the school that says if it hurts, take an aspirin. Take an aspirin. And if it really hurts or it's festering, maybe go to the doctor. See a specialist, yeah. And if it's expensive, get a second opinion. Yeah.

Yeah. So how do you end up pursuing, because as I said, I talked to Van Zandt, how do you get to RISD? Well, we moved when I was 15. We left Ohio and went to New Canaan, Connecticut, which is kind of a sleepy bedroom town for New York. Another weird sound engineer job? Yes, which he lost the minute we got there. He got fired, so he had to do something else,

and we kind of scrambled a little bit. What did he end up doing? I don't recall. I think he started his own company or something. I'm not a big family guy. No? You're out in your own world my roots are about like uh quarter inch oh yeah yeah but not too deep in this you uh you uh you sort of were going to the beat of your own drummer there kind of was yeah kind of always have been

so that's like the and we're coming into like what is, what is it? It's the 60s. 60s. So shit is changing. Yeah. I was totally, I was involved in place kicking, football place kicking, and pole vaulting. Really? That was a thing? And drawing. And drawing and painting. Yeah.

That was it in high school. Nice range. Good arc. Yeah. And I was too small and not good enough to get a football scholarship. Yeah. So my pole vaulting, I was doing all right. I was winning a few medals here and there, but it's not really something you make a life of. I don't know any professional vaulters.

No. What happens to the pole vaulters, Martin? What happens to them? I think they become pole vaulting coaches. Or maybe more general coaches. I think I can do a few other things. I can watch these kids throw things. Yeah, exactly. and run past me.

Not a less future in the pole vault. So what was left was art school, and I applied early to RISD in my junior year, and I got in, and I said, yay, yippee. You got in with drawings? Yeah, you had to do a portfolio, drawing of a chair and a few other things, whatever work I had. And I got in, and life just changed completely. Well, I have to assume, like, you know, at that time, what year was that?

Did you get, like, 60? 61. Oh, really? So it was even earlier than I thought. Yeah. So it wasn't the whole beatnik swag. The beatnik thing was coming to a close, close kind of but the hippie thing hadn't really started the thing was just starting it was the start of what i call the folk music scare

yeah so so the the institutions and the kids themselves were changing like i imagine was more practically oriented and then because risley's sort of well known for being kind of out there it was pretty out there at the time. It wasn't terribly practically oriented. There were different aspects of the university that were. University? It's an art school. What am I saying? Not a university.

I've often thought about going to college. No mechanical drawing classes, nothing to prepare you? There was. There was graphic design or architecture or industrial design, things that actually had a real antecedent to your work. But I went to the fine arts. I went to painting. And what was happening?

I feel like I miss something by missing the 60s as a conscious person. I'm born in 63. So by the time I see or have memories of how the culture was changing, it's probably I'm about 10, 72, 71. Right. And I'm seeing the long-haired. I aspired to it early on. Right.

But I missed being a grown-up in it. Do you really feel you missed something? I do, in a way, because I don't think that culturally it took... I grew up in the sort of aftermath, the undertow of it. So the entire 70s, really, musically and everything, was still sort of coming off of that. Right.

And then once it reconfigured itself, it was with disco and new wave. Right. Yeah, so you didn't get the... I didn't get the crazy kind of... The fits and starts. The fits and starts. Even taking drugs when I was in college was some sort of throwback. Well, I remember the first time there was a guy, you're talking about drugs in college,

and since everything's on the table, I was in art school during the 60s. How much can I hide? Yeah, no. Yeah. I was trying to learn a thing on guitar called Travis picking. You know what that is. It's where your thumb is independent playing. I wish I could do that.

Did you do it? Yes, but I couldn't. Yeah. And there was a guy named David Blue. Yeah. Double Eagle David Blue. Double Eagle. Double Eagle David Cohen was his name.

Yeah. He was also David Blue. Yeah. He was a folk singer, friend of Dylan's and all these things. Used to frequent the mess hall where we all ate at RISD. Did he go to school there? No. He was just a hanger on and came in to play guitar.

Because after dinner um all the guitars would come out and you'd have like folk haven there right so how long were you playing guitar at this point we missed i started maybe when i was about 18 when i went to college yeah because you can't be in art school and not play guitar you gotta have something yeah exactly show off grow your hair have a pipe yeah have a pipe? Some Borkham Riff tobacco? That's it. Mixture number 69, I believe it was. And I was complaining to him about not being able to get this damn thumb to do this thing because it has to be independent of the rest of the stuff.

It would be like Chet Atkins. He said, do you want to learn it in five minutes? I said, sure. He said, come with me. Yeah. And this is how clandestine it was at the time. We went up to Roger Williams Park, which was a part of Providence, underneath a statue of Roger Williams with his hand out over the city. Underneath some pine needles

in a tiny little pastilles box is about a three-quarter inch long roach. And he said, take this back to your room, smoke it, and I guarantee you'll learn to do it. Yeah. I did, and I did. Really? That was it? And to this day, it's still my favorite way of playing. Yeah. Yeah, I'm still trying. So do you use one finger or more than one?

More than one. On the bottom, you use more than one? Yeah. So you can go one on each string kind of deal? Yeah, but the thumb is absolutely independent. So how did you do it? Just repetition? Repetition.

The kind of repetition one can get into when one is in that state. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would be really high and focused. Yeah. So that's a,

well, is that the most important thing you learned in the 60s? Musically, it was certainly right up there. But mostly I learned that painting is something you can be married to. And really,

there's a whole, there's a lifetime of work to be done there. Well, it's interesting because my girlfriend is an abstract painter, and she does well for herself. And that world of abstraction is something that I didn't know a lot about, and now I know more about it. And it is a life. Absolutely. lot about uh and now i know more about it and uh and it is a life and it is absolutely an ongoing kind of adventure because the challenge is is always confronted right there with you and on that canvas right and well you know you can't really even separate abstraction from representational either because representational painting is abstract in itself in that what you're doing is you are taking something that is essentially to be perceived as three dimensions.

Right. And you are making it into two. Right. So once you do that, you've abstracted the image. Sure. Absolutely. Right. But I'd imagine if you talk to an abstract painter, there'd be some subtler nuances between

the two. Yes and no. Yeah. The formalist requirements of making a good painting are the same right right you know and what are those balanced compositions yeah all of those all of those buzzwords yeah balanced composition and so forth and so on nicotine i do the same you do absolutely what do you got number two oh what do you have, four? Four. I break them, though. Okay. I did two. I just got back on them, dude.

I did two. This is amazing. Cheers. Cheers to you. Oh, yeah. It feels great. I was off them. I was off everything for about-

Were you a smoker? Well, yeah. I was a smoker for a long time, but then I was hooked on these things for like eight years. Uh-huh. And then I got off everything, and life got slow slow yeah yeah i don't think nicotine is bad for you well i started what happens to me is i said were you a smoker oh god yes yeah well i started smoking what happened was i got off everything and it's always a cycle where i'm like i'm gonna have a

cigar that sounds nice and then within a month i'm like two a day i'm like i'm wheezing and i'm like this is can't be good can't so then I I said I get better get back just gonna have a couple lozenges to get through getting off the cigars then I'm like why did I ever stop yeah but now they're in my mouth all the time I go to sleep with them sometimes do you be honest no no not like that no oh really no good for you reigning it inigarettes and cigars was my thing. Oh, cigars. And then I had to quit it all about three years ago.

Yeah, why? What happened? They found a little something under my tongue that they had to cut out. Oh, shit. Yeah, so. Oh, well, good. Well, good. So everything that's fun is gone.

We got the lozenge. Yeah. The lozenge, they'll deliver. Yeah. In the morning, you know, they deliver. Yeah. No dope, no booze. Really?

Yeah. Me neither. That's almost 19 years. It's 19 years I just had. Yeah, I'm about 30. Without no booze, no dope? Well, I didn't quit booze. I finished early.

Yeah. You know, it's like these kids who go to college and they finish in two and a half years. I got a lifetime supply of drinking done in about 45 years so okay but that but you're back you're in risdy you weren't at a thumb pick you're surrounded by folkies and so you're there from what 61 to 65 with 61 to 65 undergraduate 65 i spent in uh half of it in rome on what they call a european honors program where they sent the, you know, you paid extra to be so honored. But they sent you to Rome and no thesis requirement in automatic 4.0 average and everything like that.

Did you paint there? Yeah. Yeah. So you wandered around Rome. You looked at the ceilings. You looked at the walls. You looked at everything. You looked at the sculpture.

Absolutely. It's sort of an amazing place, isn't it? It is, especially if you go over like I did with only 400 bucks in your pocket to last a year. So I ended up playing folk songs in Trattoria's for my bistecca. Oh, really? Yeah, and learned a little bit of the language

and kind of hung out, got a motorcycle, did the whole thing. And at that time, it must have, everything was smaller and better then. Seems. Yeah. Easier. cycle did the whole thing and at that time it must have everything was smaller and better than seems yeah and uh you know there's easier a lot more mental space around you know like you know people were sort of interacting as people you know and not there's no you know well there one thing that wasn't that there is now and i hadn't thought about this until you just said it there was no social media back that's That's right. Exactly. There was just like, you know, I do a bit of my stand-up now.

I say, you know, back in the day before the Internet and cell phones, we had to do things like wait. Yeah. And if you were actually waiting for something, that's all you could do is just wait. Yeah. And then I'll stand there and I'll wait on stage. And you create this space. And you realize it is just wait. And then I'll sit in there and I'll wait on stage. And you create this space. And you realize it was all around. Well, it's interesting you say that about waiting on stage.

Toward the end of my alleged musical career, I always traveled with my furniture. I could tell you why later. So I'd have my furniture out there. I'd come out. I'd sit down. And I said to the audience, we have a terrific show for you tonight. And there's no sense rushing it. And I would just sit there and have a scotch and a cigarette and talk to my piano player about our flight arrangements for the next day and do nothing for three and a half minutes.

And the people would scream. Mad or? No, laughing. They love it. Yeah, laughing. Because waiting is something that was a treat. Yeah. Yeah. And that space, it creates an interesting space.

I agree. And also that, but I mean, to get existential about it, I mean, that's really all we're doing is waiting and trying to occupy ourselves. Oh, sure. While we wait. Well, in a way, that's kind of, not to get the author's message in here, but the show I'm doing for Fox, The Cool Kids, is about a retirement home, which when you think about it, that's the big wait. Yeah, well, that's when it becomes unavoidable.

That's what we're doing. Yeah, but it's more obvious if you're 65 in a retirement home that that's what you're doing. But if you're 22 in your first year of grad school, you're also waiting. That's right. Be honest. I mean, on some level, we're all waiting, but what we're waiting for is disconcerting. So everything during the waiting is an avoidance of the inevitable,

and you try and get as much done as possible. Exactly. And that still holds true with this show. That's what these four people are doing, is trying to be as youthful and as irresponsible as they possibly can during their during the uh yeah the way during the two-minute warning and in the show do you like the does everyone have relationships that are weird with the grandkids or with the kids like does that come up like that they've been put there well actually i had a one

one line in in the pilot where the lady says to me, you know, you guys are here of your own volition. And I look at David and I say, my God, my kids are liars. And we had an episode where Leslie Jordan finally has to come out to his son who's 30-something that he's gay. So it's fun. And you're working with Vicki Lawrence, too. Vicki Lawrence. Unbelievable. I haven't seen her in years.

She's still funny? She's very funny. She's got all her chops. It's amazing. Amazing. I look at this job like, you know, as I say, I've been doing this for 50 years. If I've been selling shoes at Nordstrom's for 50 years, they'd say, okay, Mr. Moll, we're going to retire you now.

Here's this lovely gold watch. Yeah. Maybe. And this certificate. Maybe. Yeah, right. I think that's what this show is for me. I get to play with these monster actors.

Yeah. And just goof. Yeah. But you've been a working actor for decades. I mean, you're one of them. It's weird. You're one of the comedic guys. Because I never intended on it.

That's what I was trying to figure. You're in Rome and you're playing folk songs. You're riding around on a motorcycle, maybe getting a little painting done, learning things. You're mind-blown by beauty. That's one thing I noticed about Rome. Italy in general, you go there and it's like it doesn't disappoint. It delivers on

all of it. It actually is foreign. It's amazingly beautiful. No. It delivers on all of it. It actually is foreign. And it's amazingly beautiful. Right. And just those layers of Christ-infused art. Right. And all those cypress trees you thought Da Vinci invented, they're real. So you come back from that and you're like, I'm going to be a painter?

Yeah. But you're playing guitar pretty serious, if you can compare. I was playing guitar pretty well at that point. So what happened? I decided to get my master's. So I got my master's at RISD. Same place. You stayed there forever.

Yeah. You were like a guy who was always there. People came and go. I had a girlfriend there that we were living together, and I didn't want to leave her, and I wanted to stay on, and they gave me a... I was a teaching fellow, which basically absolved me of tuition requirements. Oh, so you got to – And I was supposed to just help out a drawing teacher.

It turned out they were shorthanded, so I ended up having my own drawing class. I was teaching sophomore drawing. And for two years, and I got my master's. And then, oh, my God, there's a Vietnam War going on. There's a draft. There's something I can no longer hide in academia. What do I do? How old were you at that point?

Were you draftable? Yeah, I was 22. Oh, really? Three, something like that. What are we, 67 now? Yeah, 67, eight, nine. And so I went down and did my little test, and they were smart enough to see that I was not military material. Oh, yeah?

Based on what? Based on just, I don't know, my attitude, my sentences, whatever, my look. Really? Yeah. So what happened was that they would bring people in from RISD who were all these just raging hippies. We all had hair down to our ass, you know, and so forth, and looked like we hadn't been to bed in three days. And that happened in the mid-'60s? Yeah.

That started to happen? Yeah. And then you'd have the other guys who were working for tire companies in Providence who couldn't wait to go over. Right, right. And so they would fill their quotas quickly and could get rid of a lot of it. Oh, yeah. Let's leave the art studio. Like I had a friend at Brown University, which was a sister college, who took a rhesus monkey out of a jar in one of the labs up there, dried it off, dead for many decades.

Went down to the draft board, threw it on the desk, and said, we want to enlist. Really? It was things like that. Yeah. They didn't take either of them. I've never heard that one. No. I heard the Ted Nugent story about shitting himself and going in there.

Oh, Jesus. There was that, or the peanut butter trick. Well, I had a friend at RISD who basically for a month peed on his jeans. Right. And then wore those in. Right. And he said, I convinced them I'm crazy. Yeah.

And I thought, well, you pretty much convinced me, too. With your focus on this project. Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like an art piece. Looking back, it could have been a conceptual piece. It sounds like you could have still been at RISD now if you had stayed in that game. If I had stayed in that game, what happened was I put together a band called Soup.

I had played in some copy bands and, you know, just playing guitar and doing Hold On, I'm Coming and Give Me Good Lovin' and so forth. The Brown University Mixers. Yeah. And then I put my own band together with my own songs called soup and um it was pretty it was halfway between a band and a happening right so which were also going on back then jim dine and all those kind of things in new york oh right yeah sure um and actually probably more than a nod to the bonzo dog doodah which is still one of my favorites yeah i you know don't know if I've heard this name before twice. Neil Innes and Vivian Stanchel. That's where I just heard it.

Yeah. I just heard that from fucking Eric Idle. Eric, yeah, my buddy. Yeah, he was just in here. Oh. Like three days ago. Oh, okay. He's got the new book out.

What did I do with it? Oh, that's right. Right in the house. Right. Yeah, and he meant, because I was talking about Neil Innes for a second, and he had that band, but I didn't know anything about it.

I just sort of nodded my head like, know well they were doing funny songs okay so like when you're we performed at risdy a couple times and then uh i also was in the double standard string band which was uh an old-timey bluegrass band and just uh guy you really learned how to work that thumb huh yeah and uh we were uh started going to the club 47 in boston which was a folk club and we'd get go up there who'd you see who was working um we were yeah the double standards but like who were the the other cats who were oh you would have judy collins and bob dylan and reverend gary davis and right um sunny terry brown and mcgee people like that they come up with eric idol too Why did they come up?

Oh, my God. It's like, yeah. They were my opening act at one point. Really? Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee. And I thought, if ever there was putting a cart before a horse, you know, why should they be opening? So, okay, so you're doing these bands. So the music you're writing was always funny music. Yeah, it tried to be.

And I got a deal. I actually was out of RISD, got my master's, poor as a church mouse. I actually had an electric. My upstairs neighbor loaned me an electric blanket because I had no heat in my $35 a month apartment. It was a plug-in electric blanket? It was a wire going up the stairs to his electric because I had no electric either. Oh, yeah.

And at that point, I finally got my first deal with Folkways. Folkways. I just got some records from them. And a producer named Sam Charters. Okay, so you got the deal with Folkways. It couldn't have been a big deal, but did you get your own blanket? Yeah, I had a couple of bucks, and I moved to Boston, stayed on a guy's couch until I got a job in a recording studio being a machine operator. Where in Boston were you living?

I was living in Back Bay on Marlboro Street. Oh, yeah. Brownstone? Yeah. No, basement. Oh, basement. Brownstone basement? Yeah, it was the one-room basement, and I got completely robbed there.

They took all my guitars, all my everything. They even took the clothes off the hangers. Really? They took the hangers. Wow. And the only thing that was left in the apartment, the door was off its hinges. Yeah. I found my headphones on the front steps of the building.

So that was my tip off that something was wrong. Went in. The only thing they left, I swear this is true, Mark, were false eyelashes floating in the toilet. Was that their signature? I guess. I've heard about robbers shitting on beds. Yeah, so like any responsible citizen, I contact my local gendarmerie. I say to the policeman, I say, this is what happened.

He said, oh, boy. He said, well, if you find out who did it, call us. He said, don't try to apprehend them yourself. That's the disappointing thing about justice. Cops can do what they can do, but you watch enough TV, you think the cops are going to be working on your case. At least he was honest with you. Yeah, we got a 1040 over on Marlboro Street. We're going to get a few guys on this.

We'll let you know in a week or two. Dream on. All right, so you get robbed. But are you touring as this get robbed but the but are you touring as this band i mean is are you playing out no so you get the record deal goes nowhere so i'm writing a bunch of little songs here and there here and there here and there yeah and finally uh one of the songs i wrote it was an answer song yeah which uh people don't do anymore but when you um it's got a refrain that the audience does, or what?

No, where you answer somebody else's song. Johnny Cash had a song called A Boy Named Sue. Right. I wrote a song called A Girl Named Johnny Cash. Okay, that's funny. Ended up placing it with Warner Brothers Music, and it actually made the charts. And because of that, I got writing writer's deal with warner brothers

music okay it was 105 bucks a month so what is it like what what is a deal with warner music at that what are we talking like 1970 71 yes it would have been about 1971 exactly and what does that mean that they that you they're like you know write his songs kid yeah exactly write songs send them in see if we can do anything with them. Well, needless to say, the songs I was writing, there was nothing that could do with them. But would you call them, I don't think they're, I guess it's kind of novelty songs, but, I mean, you evolved into something else, into a sort of a kind of musical comedian. But, I mean, at that time, would A Girl Named Johnny Cash be a novelty song?

I would have to say it would be a novelty song. I certainly wouldn't call it a classic. Right. And it's not something people would play at their wedding. Right. But in the market for a novelty song was like, you know, if you got one going, you could make a few bucks pretty quick. Oh, Ray Stevens did really well. The streak.

Guitars and things like that. Didn't he do the streak? Yeah. But what happened was I ended up amassing this let's say an axe worth of songs that I had written, which they didn't do anything with. And I thought, well, I'll do something with them.

And a few people around the studio in Boston on it was Petrucci and Atwell was the studio. Yeah. And there were some people that caught wind of it and said, you know, I like this stuff. Why don't you go out and play a few places? And I did. I went to a couple little coffee houses and did my stuff.

With the band or just you? Just me. Yeah. And since I was a dreadful singer, I think, you know, pitch was not my forte. Yeah. And since I was a dreadful singer, I think pitch was not my forte. Yeah. I would do these kind of longish introductions. Yeah. And it's kind of an apologies almost afterward.

And it turned into a comedy act of sorts. Right. And all of a sudden, I'm doing this act, and I put a little band together, and I got a manager. And that manager was handling a singer named Jonathan Edwards at the church folk singer had a song called sunshine yeah like that and it was full it's on shine yeah uh-huh and he's a Boston guy yes yeah and he was with Capricorn Records yeah it was Phil Walden he had the Allman Brothers and so forth and so on.

And my manager said, I want you to come see this band. And it was my band. Yeah. And afterward, he said, it's just terrible. This is terrible. Terrible. Perfect. And it turned out what happened was the sound system was so bad, you couldn't hear any lyrics,

which was what my whole thing was about. So we finally sent him a tape. And he said, why didn't you have me go see this band instead? I love these guys. And I got signed to Capricorn Records, made a record, and it did well. This is the first record, 1972. Yeah. It's a lot of you doing stand-up, really, and talking about...

Really well. Yeah, yeah. But where it got lucky was Underground Radio, which at that time, there was such a thing, like WBCN in Boston. lucky was Underground Radio, which at that time there was such a thing. FM. BCN in Boston. That was Underground. When I was in Boston, because I went to college there and started a comedy there, BCN was like big.

So you're talking about FM, FM, just the guy sleeping a bit. Right, right. Playing old sides of records. Smoking whole dupes. Yeah. And just sitting there and playing, yeah, playing James Brown over and over again if he'd like to. Yeah. there and playing James Brown over and over again if you'd like to. Yeah, and what happened was I started selling some records and getting some following.

And one of the greatest things was it got heard by, if that's a correct sentence, a guy named Stanley Dorfman in London, who was a British producer for BBC, said, I love this album. I want to do it live on the BBC. I said, well, there's even an orchestra. He said, no problem. We can do it. We can do an orchestra. So I went over there,

and the first thing he does is put me together with Derek Taylor, who was the Beatles publicist, and Harry Nilsson for a very, very long red wine-fueled lunch, which finally... What was he doing there? Drinking.

In London? We were both drinking, yeah. Harry was there, I think, working on some stuff. Yeah. And was tight with Derek. Yeah. And just, they had the feeling that the two of us would hit it off, and we did quite well. But that was my introduction, rather, to actually having my stuff done for real in front of people and on television and meeting a Beatle guy and Harry.

Yeah. And it just kind of went from there. So when they did it on the BBC, it was just a live performance for the radio? It was for television. Oh, for television. Yeah. So now was Harry there for the show? I believe he was, yes.

Did you stay friends with him throughout? Yes. In fact, that's how I met John Lennon. It actually was that Harry said, when I get to New York, I'll give you a ring and we'll have a drink. And he gave me the, he said, I'm over at the, I don't know, some hotel. He said, room 15. Knock on the door. We'll have a drink and knock on the door.

And John Lennon answers the door. And I was pretty blown away, you know, because I'm still just this kind of starry-eyed kid. Yeah. You were a painter years before. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not even 30 at this point, or maybe I am. And so I went in and watched Lawrence Welk with him and Harry and Yoko, and John didn't say a word until the Lawrence Welk show was over,

and he just looked at the screen and he said, he's got a good gig. Really? Yeah. That's hilarious. So now, okay, so you're hanging out with Harry Nelson, who, what an astonishing songwriter and singer that guy was. Wonderful songwriter, wonderful singer, yeah.

His voice is like fucking beyond, man. Yeah. Did you watch that weird documentary? I did. What did you think of that? I liked it, but I thought it could have gone to other places as well. It was a little disconcerting, the insinuation that John Lennon sought to destroy his voice. I don't think so at all.

I think that was imposed on that. I think so, too. I think in a lot of documentaries, what you end up is the documentarian, if there's such a word, there shouldn't be, has a predisposed attitude towards something and does everything they can to prove their point as opposed to discovering things. That's true, yeah. I like more things like capturing the Freedmen's where you go in looking for one thing and find out a whole nother. Did you see that?

Yeah, that was something, that one. That was great. That guy, the clown son, he was sort of around New York comedy for a while. We would see him around. But did you see the one about the triplets who were separated at birth, the new one? No. You should go see it. I don't know if

it's still in the theaters, but it's genius. I wait for Netflix. I don't go out. It's genius. Yeah, it's great. Triplets separated at birth. Yeah, I do. It was like, it's a crazy story that goes places you would never imagine, and it's very provocative on a few different levels.

Alright, so when do you, like, okay, so after England, you're back, you're hanging around with john lennon and harry nelson when do you become destroyed by show business martin what do you mean destroyed when do you enter the machine out here i was uh touring all over the place with the band or just you with my with the band uh for a lot of it. Sometimes just myself. Yeah. Sometimes just myself and Ed Wise, my piano player. Uh-huh. Doing these comedy nights.

Yeah. And doing all sizes of small comedy clubs, small folk clubs. Yeah. Big. I opened for Liza Minnelli on a tour. I mean, big. We were getting to the point where we could fill 2,500, 3,000 seat halls. It's interesting about comedic acts is that that used to be the gig was to open for people.

Did you do a lot of that? I did a lot of opening. Yeah. But I also did a bit of headlining. Right. And then you'd have packages like Steve Martin and I would do the Steve Martin Mall Show, where depending on the city, who was ever bigger, it was usually him. What year was that?

72, 3. Oh, really? Yeah. So you guys were, because I noticed that, you know, looking at the sort of chronology of things that, you know, that it seems that the type of comedy that Martin became huge for was something that you were doing for a while. I think we were both doing it at the same time. I think it's like that, what do they call it, Zen poetry, where two people from different parts of the world will come up with the same slogan or something. I know when we first met, I've told this story a hundred times, but I'll tell it again. It was a crowded hallway backstage at the Great Southeast Music Hall,

and he was tuning his banjo sitting there, and there was just enough room for me to get by him with my guitar and my case. I'd not met the man, but certainly his reputation preceded him. But this was long before he broke big. Before really big. He had been on the Smothers Brothers show and done some things like that, so I knew of his work and knew how good he was. And found myself really unable to even come up with a howdy-do. When I walked by him, I just walked by and didn't say anything because I was intimidated.

Yeah. It turns out, he said the other day when we were doing something, that he was intimidated, too. I find that amazing. He still hang out? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I got about four feet past him, and I hear, oh, pretty good. How are you?

At which point I broke down laughing, and he did too, and we have been friends for close to 50 years now. That makes sense, that double bill. That must have been fun. It was really fun. Because you're both very different. So I did that a lot. And the other thing about me was I wasn't a comedy act, really.

I was a music act. You know, I get that, you know, because, like, as a child, you know, comedy, musical comedy was not my bag, really, you know? Like, I was more of a stand-up kid. Okay. You know, and even with, you know, but, but like listening to your records now like i don't know maybe they were a little too sophisticated for me when i was a younger man but i they strike me i mean i get your musical act but those are comedy records they they are but let me ask you this what was spike jones well i i would i would he was a musical comedy act. That's what I would have to say I was. In fact, oddly enough, the very first time I ever saw live music performed ever as a child was my parents took me to see Spike Jonze in Cleveland.

Really? I realize that now. Yeah. Yeah. That must have been how I thought music should be performed. You did funny songs, but you were not like a musical parody guy. No. You did funny songs, but you were not like a musical parody guy. No.

And when you did do something like Dueling Tubas, which was a hilarious take on something that became some sort of weird national phenomenon. Right. But that's not parody, really. No, no. I didn't go the way Al Yankovic goes. No, I would write my own songs. And sometimes they'd be somewhat serious, etc. But a lot of the things you were doing, like, structurally were like Steve Martin in that, you know, you'd talk for a while. I mean, he was obviously doing jokes, but you were doing comedic monologues in, like, you know, long form.

Right. And sort of, like, then you'd ease into the song. Exactly. So when did you move to L.A.? About 75, I think. Oh, really? Something like that, 74, 75. So you stayed in Boston?

No, I was in New York. Oh, okay. And made another album there. You playing the bottom line and that kind of stuff? I did, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you made the album that I was talking about in New York? No.

The first live record? No, I made that in L.A. Oh, perfect. What is it? That was just called Martin Mullin and His Fabulous Furniture in Your Living Room. Oh, that was that record? Yeah. So the furniture thing.

Yeah. That came about while I was still in college. I was getting these jobs with these, I told you, these copy bands. And that was back when bands used to set up like the Beatles did across like a 50-foot stage. You'd have a stack of marshals and you'd stand in front. And all you hear is you. You don't hear anybody else. It's just cacophony.

Right. And it's noisy and it's loud and you're trying to do Hold On, I'm Coming at top volume. Yeah. And then you go back to your house at night after the gig is over and you go, ah. You have something to maybe alter your sensibility. Yeah. You have a beer or two right and you both pull out your acoustic guitars and start playing and i thought now this

is music right and i thought what's the difference furniture so um when i started going out actually doing my little act um this would be like 71 72 um i actually took my living room furniture in the back of my ford pinto and uh set it up set it up on stage so that I would feel at home and have the same vibe I had when I was. So it would be more like music. And you did that when you were opening as well? Absolutely. And then when I started touring, I couldn't very easily put the couch into baggage claim. So I would have a writer in my contract that said, you have to go to the Salvation Army army get the shittiest couch you can find an end table a lamp and so forth and so on

and i'd always have it on stage so you'd have them go spend 100 bucks yeah on a full living room set exactly so when you move out here uh that you're coming out here on the fabulous furniture album right and and then like what's it like here in, like, 75? It was pretty crazy, I guess. I was just all about the music at that time. Now, was your reputation preceding you? You had met Steve Martin already. Yeah, we were friends.

So you had a little cachet in terms of, like, the Troubadour and that crew and everybody. Yeah, kind of. Yeah, I kind of, I knew most of the people that were making music at that time or funny. Did they play on your records ever? Oh, let's see.

On one record, the record, I think it was I'm Everyone I Ever Loved. Let's see, Tom Waits. I was just going to ask you that. He's the guy at the bar. Yeah, Tom Waits is in that.

Melissa Manchester's in that. Ed Begley's in that. Rob Reiner's in that. Billy Crystal's on that. Ed Begley's in that. Rob Reiner's in that. Billy Crystal's on that. A lot of friends would come in and do little bits and pieces. Begley is everywhere. He's everywhere. Always.

Yeah. I just saw him last night on Better Call Saul. Yeah. I've interviewed him, too. He's like this weird, zealot-like character in the Hollywood Hills. And it seems like there's not a role he can't do and won't do. Yeah. He's like the Michael Caine of television.

He's definitely got a very unique, funny presence. But when I talk to him, I mean. I like him a lot. You know, growing up here and having that experience of being, you know, he was like, he was everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, for whatever reason. Yeah, he's great. Yeah.

So I had, yeah, a lot of friends and lived in the Hollywood Hills and so forth and so on. Yeah. And was it still primarily music yes so how many so you put out like when did you when did it happen that how did you enter you know the world of uh you know becoming a comedic actor well i was getting kind of sick of the road you know really a touring act. Yeah, I was. And I was with a management group that also handled Louise Lasser and was at the same time a huge fan of Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. You were? Yeah, I used to.

So that was already on before you got the role? Yes. I remember coming home once and turning it on to see what the hell is this show. And the first scene was the grandpa coming in to the kitchen saying where the hell's the peanut butter and the first place he looked was in the dryer and i said i like this show and i became a fan and when i found out that uh my management uh company was actually handling louise lasser and connected to the show i said look any way i could maybe get a job as a writer on the show. I remember seeing it because I was young, and I'm not sure I quite understood the comedy

because that was like 70, what the hell was it, like 76, so I was 13. Yeah. It was on late. That's right. It was a riff on a soap opera, but I remember like Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. Yeah. It was very off-center. It was a great show.

Yeah, it was. It was sort of groundbreaking. Exactly. Yeah. So this show was sort of groundbreaking. It was weird. It was a new type of comedy. It was a satirical soap opera.

It was late at night. Norman Lear was involved, right? So I would have asked him. We had a nice meeting about an hour or so. With who? With Norman. Oh, yeah. And to be a writer at the end of which he said, we don't need any writers.

He said, but it's nice meeting you. Boom. And six months later, I got this call to come in and read for a part or that they had offered me the part. I can't even remember. Yeah. Because I'm at that age where the fact checker between my imagination and my memory is gone right it's gone of course so if i lie it's it's forgivable no one's gonna call you on it no

and anyway i got the part yeah and i thought well this will be fun i've never acted in anything not counting my draft physical yeah and um and i've been doing comedy on the road, so it should be, you know, a piece of cake. Yeah. The part was the part of a wife abuser. And in a nanosecond, I realized there ain't nothing funny about this. Uh-huh. Nothing funny. Right.

So I'm going to have to learn to be an actor. Uh-huh. And thank God there were people like Dabney Coleman and Marion Mercer and Greg Malavy, et cetera, who would take me outside and say, you know, you might want to think about this or you might want to try that. Oh, yeah. Or don't you think before he walks in the room, he would check his pocket to see if he has his keys? And you have no pretense.

You need advice. Oh, my God. I was a sponge. Yeah. And so I finally made it through. And then they kill your character. Well, what has happened is I recall, and again, my recall, what's it worth? Yeah.

I was under contract to, I think it was NBC for a development deal or something like that. They were going to try to come up with something. So I was loaned out to Mary Hartman for four months. And so I was killed off at the end of that four months. Yeah. Four months. Right. And so I was killed off at the end of that four months. Yeah. That very day, NBC, if it was them, said, we're not going forward. Right. So you can stay on Mary Hartman.

I said, well, I can't fucking stay on Mary Hartman. I'm dead. Right. I have a Christmas tree through my thorax, for Christ's sake. And so I went to Norman. I said, has anyone ever asked to come back as their twin brother? And Norman said, everyone asks to come back as their twin brother? And Norman said, everyone asks to come back as their twin brother.

He said, but in your case, I want to do it. He said, I got this idea for a thing called Fernwood Tonight. He said, which would be what if the Johnny Carson show or a talk show, period, originated from this tiny town in Ohio where Mary Hartman took place.

And Mary Hartman was a soap opera. Am I remembering that right? No, you're absolutely right. I'm confusing it with soap. Did soap come after? Soap came after. Right. I think. Yeah.

So he said, the only problem is, he said, I'd like you to do it. I think your character, your twin brother thing would be perfect. He said, but we're going to have a live audience, and I just don't know what you can do in front of a live audience I'm only seeing you here yeah and you're so I had to put together a gig at the Roxy and invite have my band back together invited Norman Lear to come down and see the concert yeah and halfway through it I stood up on stage and I said Norman do I have the fucking gig and And he says, you've got it. Finish your show. And that was it.

Yeah. And then on day one, I met Fred Willard. Oh, man. And the rest is history with him and I. Yeah. That was a great pairing. He's something else. Yeah.

I've interviewed him a while back. Isn't he amazing? He's like a truly, like, oddly funny guy in a very earnest way. And he comes out of that West Coast sketch troupe business. That's so funny, Mark, because I have often tried to think of what it is about him that's so singular. And that's the word, earnest. Earnest, yeah. Earnest.

There's a genuine earnestness to his completely inexplicable responses. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, he just sells it so matter of fact. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, he just sells it so matter of fact. Yeah. Yeah, always. I've often likened it to working with him as like following someone to an unknown destination and the person refuses to use their turn signals.

Yeah, yeah. Did you guys improvise a lot? A lot. Yeah. Yeah, because you just never know. You're like the straight man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you just never know. You're like the straight man. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, what happened was we had to improvise a bit because when Norman decided to do the show, he wanted to do 10 a week and to have 10 scripted half hours a week. Why would he do that, man? Right now, I'm doing one a week, one half hour scripted, and it's hard for the writers. You can imagine what that was. Right. It couldn't happen. I think, again, it was a hard for the writers. You can imagine what that was. So it couldn't happen. I think it was, again, it was a smaller business, a little looser.

Yeah. And there weren't as many people involved. There was not as much pressure as there is now. Right. And people had a tremendous amount of confidence in him. Right. So they cut it back to six a week. But what were you going to do with 10 a week?

You just stockpiled them. Right, right, right. But it was a daily show yeah we ended up doing two a day and uh it was on every night yeah every night so you were you were actually i didn't realize that so you did a lot of episodes because it didn't run 30 yeah and it didn't it wasn't on that long no two years uh harry shearer and i wrote all the monologues together, and Alan Thicke was the producer. And you were having real guests. We were having fake guests the first year in Fernwood.

Then what happened was it got popular, and we would have people, let's say, like yourself, well-known, that wanted to be on the show. Right. Well, we can't say that your name is Joe Bifsplick because people are going to know it's Mark. Yeah, yeah. So we changed the format where we said that we are now coming from Altacoma, California, the unfinished furniture capital of the world, and we're damn near the airport, and we could get celebrities whose flights were canceled.

Right. And so we'd have people were canceled right and and so we'd have people like carol burnett and so forth and oh that's funny and coming on as themselves yeah so that well so like for the first year the i mean the you must have like used every you know sort of bit playing character actor in hollywood pretty much we we had people like kenneth mars who was unbelievable uh-, geez, yeah. Yeah, just a never-ending cavalcade. And the ones that could improv would be the ones we would keep.

It's so amazing to me because, like, you know, this show, like, I knew about it, and I remember seeing it a little bit, but I was, like, pretty young. And Mary Hartman I remember seeing a little bit. But, like, this was a definitive show. It was an important show. And I mean, and Saturday Night Live is really just getting off the ground and you guys are sort of way ahead. It's sort of like was defining and I, and it's weird that people forget about it.

Yeah. Well, it was also 40 years ago. I guess. I mean, but it's sort of like, it's weird that, you know, things repeat themselves and everyone thinks they discover things and it's like it's like, no, you didn't. Yeah, no. But it was groundbreaking when you did it. Yeah, it sort of felt that way.

So then that begins your acting career. Now you've got chops, now you're in and you're moving. I did a movie called FM. Yeah, I remember that movie. And I think that WKRP kind of stole the movie in a way, and to build that from that. A little, I don't know if you steal anything. Not steal, but it was before WKRP became a TV show, and it was about a similar world.

Right, right, right. And that was what Freeform, which we talked about earlier, became. Exactly. The FM world. Absolutely. It became the hip thing that people listen to if you wanted to get away from FM,. Absolutely. It became the, you know, the hip thing that people listen to. Right. If you wanted to get away from FM or AM.

So that was your first movie. Right. And then from there, started doing, you know, all the talk shows. Yeah. And I got another movie. I actually got my starring role in a movie called Serial. Yeah. And I've just kind of worked ever since.

a movie called Serial. Yeah. And I've just kind of worked ever since. And what, like, so at the time, you know, like, because you're, yeah, you're one of those guys that's sort of like, you know, always around and always in things. And do you stop the music? I pretty much kept the music going here and there,

made a few albums. In fact, the album that got nominated for the Grammy was an album called Sex and Violins. And it was arranged by Frank Duvall, who actually played Happy Kind, the band leader on Firmwood Tonight. Uh-huh. Because he was basically a well-known movie composer. He had done, I think, Cat Baloo and whatever happened to Baby Jane

and all these great movies. He just did a beautiful job. Baby Jane Hudson. Yeah. There's always a never-ending sort of parade of versions of Baby Jane Hudson in this fucking town. But then you were on Roseanne for a lot.

Then what happened was I did a series called Domestic Life that Steve Martin was exec on, and we did a few episodes of that, and that didn't happen. Then I was kind of out of work just doing little guest shots, and Tom Arnold approached me on the street because we lived nearby, and he said, we want you to be on the Roseanne show. And it was number one at the time, and I said, whoa, yeah. He said, we want you to be on the Roseanne Show. And it was number one at the time. Yeah.

And I said, whoa, yeah. He said, we want you to play her gay boss. I was just about to buy an electric blanket. Yeah. Right in time. Right, exactly. Yeah. And he said, you'll be playing her boss, and he's gay.

And I said, yeah, okay. You know, nobody ever believed that Eddie Murphy was Gumby. Yeah. And. Right. Yeah, it's different. So, yeah, it's different so yeah it's different i said but i don't want to play him swish right now i think that would be insulting and i can't do that

i said if i can i said i don't mind being an asshole yeah i love being that right that's fun i said but i want to be uh respectful yeah and and uh he said no that's exactly how we want to do it too yeah and so i ended up doing think, eight or nine years on that show. Was that fun? Yes, it was a lot of fun. I got to work with, you know, Laurie and John Goodman and just, you know. Oh, Metcalf's the best. Oh, my God.

Laurie's unbelievable. Yeah. I've talked to her. Yeah. Just like a real deal. Did you ever see that nine-minute monologue she did for Louis C.K.? In C.K. Show? Yeah.

It's crazy. Is that not astounding? It's crazy. It's mind-blowing. Absolutely mind-blowing. Yeah, I talked to her. It was a great conversation because she really put a lot of things into perspective historically around Steppenwolf. I mean, she was a founding member, and they were all kids.

It was really kind of fascinating, And she's just an amazing actress. I have yet to see her in a stage performance, which I understand is just like light years ahead of. She just did one with Glenda Jackson, I think. What was it? Which play was that? Oh, God. Was it Three Women? Three Women, I think. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, she's amazing. And what a funny show. And Kooky Roseanne, who got kookier and kookier. Yeah. But she was always uh uh i i mean i i imagine you know to being on on a show that that was that popular and and and that you know being around her uh you know must have been pretty exciting

but it was a good set yeah it was a good set yeah um there were problems here and there you know but i just stayed at arm's length. That's the great thing about just being a hired guy. Yeah. Where's my script? The ombudsman, you know. Yeah. You come in there, where's my mark?

Where's my script? Right, right. I'll be in my trailer. Good morning, everyone. Good night, everyone. Let me know when this is over. Yeah. Exactly.

Whatever this is. Yeah. And then you did Sabrina with my friend Caroline. Yes, I did. I just saw Caroline last week. How is she And then you did Sabrina with my friend Caroline. Yes, I did. I just saw Caroline last week. How is she? She's well.

She's doing good. How old? Her kid's got to be older now. Eight or nine years old probably. I think something like that. Yeah. Yeah, she showed me a picture. Oh, that's sweet. But that was your meal ticket for a long time.

Sure was. And you like doing that? Yeah, I love doing that. Yeah. That was fun. I had my watercolors in the trailer, and I'd sit there and do paintings when I wasn't being needed. And that never stopped, the painting? No, never.

No. I had shows, started having a lot of shows starting around 1980. I think I started showing again and have not stopped. That's great. So I noticed that we played a little guitar before. There's that thing that that generally sort of creative spirit.

You know what I mean? Like you're just one of those cats. Like, you know, I like playing guitar. I don't do it publicly that often. You play very well. Well, thank you. I've gotten better.

I've practiced. I've gotten worse. I don't. Yeah. But see, for me, it's like it was never my profession. It's just always been my reprieve. Yeah. It's like my meditation.

But lately, for years, I'd do Conan O'Brien shows. I saw you play with Conan with the band. You saw that? I saw it. You were kicking some serious butt there. That was a big night, man. I don't know. There's something about it.

I got to do that on the Tonight Show with B.B. King. Oh, wow oh i got to trade for us with him on a blues and the band joined in and oh man what a rush oh wow it's the best yeah i got to play green onions with booker t and the mg yeah on the on the tonight show it was great what was like what was that like being around carson um i love johnny i just thought he was a fabulous fabulous guy i just loved him did you did it a lot yeah i um i even guest hosted about a dozen times really yeah how i got on the carson show is kind of funny they used to have what they called um i don't know like a cattle call kind of thing on friday afternoons where the world who juggled or had a trained snake or anything like that could come in and audition for the show. And I went in and my manager, same one that put me with Norman Lear, said, go in and do

a song. And I had this thing I used to do called hors d'oeuvre. It was a French song about saying instead of hors d'oeuvre, say hors d'oeuvre. And I decorated myself up with a red and white check tablecloth over my lap. And I had grapes hanging from my guitar and a beret and did the whole thing, a loaf of French bread. And I did this number. And it used to kill when I was on the road. And afterward, Freddy DeCordova called my manager and said, worst thing I've ever seen.

Never send this man here again so about three weeks later george carlin is guest hosting and when you're guest hosting you can suggest or even i guess probably even require that certain people be your guests yeah and he asked for me and they said okay and so i got on the carson show and of course you know what i did the grapes yeah yeah i had to do it and it did really well yeah and then um geez i think within a few months i actually was guest hosting see that's something like you know i remember that all the time and i remember like as a kid you'd you'd have uh your favorite guest hosts you know i remember you know david brenner used to do it all the fucking time and like you know they're always different guys and that that's sort of um gravitas and confidence

of a guy like carson who's going to be like i'm going to take a couple weeks off and you know just let uh who's on the list yeah and let them do it put the show on autopilot basically yeah and give these guys a shot handling yep you don Yep. You don't see that anymore. People are too terrified. It's absolutely terrifying. When you're backstage and the show's about to start and Ed McMahon says, now here's, there's really only one word that follows that. And when it's your name, you just are terrified. And I realized later on that my first guest was Steve Allen, who was the father of all this stuff.

Yeah. And I think that may have been just wise judgment on their part that if, in fact, I did mess my underwear or worse, they had a host right there that could take over. Well, had you not met him before? Who, Steve? Yeah. I had met him before, I think. Well, it just seems like that time you were here and at that time you were working in the 70s that, you know, there was this interesting thing I always loved about and what made me sort of drawn towards show business was a seeming camaraderie of the people that were in it. And there were a select bunch of people.

You know, there were the people you always saw on TV. There were the people you always saw in movies. But it still felt like a small community to me watching it. And it seems like you were here where that transition of the old guard and the new guard was happening. But the old guys were still around. Right. And you'd see them and you'd get to know them probably. Well, I'll tell you what's striking me as odd is, and I was talking to both Eric, Idol, and Steve about this, is that there was a time when we were just coming up.

There was George Burns and Bob Hope. Right. They were there. And they were there. We've become that. Yeah. You know? And I get people coming up to me and actually have used the word, and I'm not saying this in terms of self-praise, they'll use the word legend.

And I realize the word legend can simply be translated using a calendar. Right. That if you are old enough. You're not dead. If you're old enough and not dead and have stayed in the business, you're automatically a legend, regardless of the quality of what you've done. Right. But I think the sad thing to me, and I guess it's sad on some level, but on another level, it means a lot more opportunities for creative people, is that the media landscape is so

fragmented that there was a time like those guys, like Burns, George Burns, Bob Hope, Jack Benny, where the entire country knew who they were. Absolutely. And they had a relationship with those guys. Yeah. Their country knew who they were. Absolutely. And they had a relationship with those guys.

Yeah. So, you know, as they got older, you know, there was a nostalgia, but also a real human connection. Absolutely. That a majority of the people felt with these entertainers that you don't have anymore. No, that's true. Yeah. That is true. And it's sort of weird, like even someone like Steve Martin, who is, you know, a giant, that, you know, the fact that there's a whole generation of people that are so either self-involved or into their own thing that is available that like, you know, I don't know who he is, you know. But I guess that's just the cruelty of history.

Well, it also could be just the size of the industry has increased exponentially. Oh, yeah. And what people can watch. I mean, you can't keep up with anything anymore. But it seems to me that you stay busy and that you're happy. You seem happy. I am. I'm happily married.

Wendy and I have been, she was my keyboard player, and we've been happily married for almost 40 years. I've got a soon-to-be 33-year-old daughter, Maggie, who is one of the producer-writers of Family Guy. Oh, yeah. And you've been on Family Guy, right? You've made little appearances everywhere. Yeah.

I did The Simpsons once with George Carlin. I hadn't seen George in years. And this sums up George. I hadn't seen him literally in years. George in years. And this sums up George. I hadn't seen him literally in years. And when I first saw him on the set for the recording, he said, Martin, he said, you know something?

You and I have never been shopping for swimwear together. It was the most astounding statement. George, I miss him terribly. Yeah, he was great. He was great. Yeah, even as he got older, he got a little more intense, but it meant something to him. You know, stand up. Absolutely.

And speaking truth to power was something that, you know, you don't see as much from people with real ability to do it. Right, right. Like he was singular. He was unique. And who are the other guys that you still see? You see Eric and Steve and... Not a whole lot of people. I've become very much a homebody.

I sit there and watch my Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Browns, and my wife and I watch Peaky Blinders and all the good stuff. And paint. Yeah. And what's your work schedule like? How many... You did a first season, so now you wait? We haven't finished the first season.

We're halfway through. We've done six. We've got seven more to go for the first order. Then if the gods are willing, we will get the famous back nine, which will give us a full season. And this is on which network? It's on Fox.

So this is a big shot, and it's a show that appeals to a group of people that have watched TV forever. I would say it does. It's very hard to know where the appeal is. I thought going into it that it would have an appeal to the Golden Girls set, the older people. They're not thinking that. They said the testing was younger people, so I have no idea what people watch. Maybe you're going to teach younger people to respect old people.

Wouldn't that be something? Well, it's sort of interesting. Yeah, it would be something. But, like, I talked to, you know, Michael Douglas is doing this thing with Alan Arkin that Chuck Lorre is doing. I heard about that. It's interesting, man. You know, it's like, it's weird because you've got...

That's Chuck's? I didn't know that. Yeah, it's Chuck's, and it's like, it seems almost like a passion project because he's a three-camera guy. Yeah. And this is like a single-camera feel. Wow. But, you know, he's writing like he writes.

And when I was watching it, because we've all gotten so sort of sophisticated and condescending about the nature of what TV is supposed to look like, and. When you watch TV that is more like watching a movie, this is something that, like, it's not in a live audience, but they're doing that patter. You know, they're doing, it's not quite shtick, but it is sort of joke to joke, but it doesn't ring false because it feels like Neil Simon almost. Like, you know, it's like old Jewish guys doing the thing.

And, you know, you would think that there wouldn't be room for that now, but it kind of was very endearing and good. Wow. I look forward to that. Yeah. I mean, how's the comedy on your show? Broad. Fairly broad. And silly.

And not issue-driven. And I find it really refreshing that we have basically the old, I play kind of an old ex-hippie. I'm the white guy. David Alan Greer is the African-American. Leslie Jordan is blatantly gay and out. And Vicki Lawrence is a lady. So we've got all of the identity groups right there. And there has not been one identity joke no issues

right no nothing you know judd hirsch isn't in it how's that he must be working he may he may come in we had jamie farr oh yeah from mash no kidding yeah oh that's nice yeah he came in oh that'd be max gale from barney miller sure he came in really yeah well this is what's nice it's going to open things up to getting people like Fred. The guys we're talking about. Yeah, Tommy and Dickie. I'd like to get them on, the Smothers Brothers. Are they talking about doing that?

Yeah, we're talking about getting everybody, a lot of guest stars. But that whole generation, that's great. It'd be terrific. That's fun. Well, man, I'm glad you're doing well. And all I can say is that I think you need to pick up your guitar occasionally. Yeah, I'd like to. What kind of guitar are you playing?

A Gibson? I have. I got rid of my L5. I got rid of it. Oh, you did? Yeah. Why? Why would you get rid of a guitar?

I didn't need it. I'm at the age where I'm trying to get rid of things. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't want my daughter to have to go through everything and say, what am I going to do with this fucking thing? Yeah, that's what happens. I start thinking about that with the books.

It's like my brother going, should I throw this away? So you just got the Martin, huh? And now I got the Martin and I have a Del Arte, which is a handmade archtop full-size jazz guitar that I play. Oh, nice. Yeah. Great talking to you, man. Same here.

What a sweet guy. What a sweet guy. What a great talk. I really enjoyed talking to Martin Muller. As I said earlier, the new series he's on is called The Cool Kids. It's on Fox. It's on Friday nights at 830, 930 Central. Full episodes anytime at fox.com. And what a great guy, really.

Also, I'll be at the Ice House in Pasadena on December 2nd Sunday at 7pm tickets you can get them at WTFpod.com slash tour or Icehousecomedy.com okay alright how about some

psychedelic wah-wah guitar that seems to be where I'm at I'll just do it for a minute for those of you who are still listening Boomer lives! at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. Discover the timeless elegance of cozy

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