WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 976 - Maggie Gyllenhaal

Episode Date: December 13, 2018

Maggie Gyllenhaal grew up with filmmaker parents but didn't really feel like her family was in show business. That disconnect has helped her in her work and life, like when she performs with her husband, Peter Sarsgaard, or when she turns to her mother for screenwriting advice. Maggie and Marc also talk about the sexual politics of The Deuce and how they match up with the Hollywood today, her relationship to poetry and how that factored into her performance in The Kindergarten Teacher, what she learned about herself making Secretary, and what kind of support system she shares with her brother Jake. This episode is sponsored by Omaha Steaks, YouTube Music, 23andMe, and the New York Times Crossword Puzzle App. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuckstables what the fucking ears what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf it's weird i do that intro and I've been doing it for years and years. And I used to think about all the different names I could use, but then things become a habit. I'm going to have to mix it up again. Maybe I'll, no, I'm not going to get rid of it. It's just that, you know, I turn on, I hit record and that's what comes out of my mouth. I'm part of the machine. It's a symbiotic relationship. When I see the little sound wavies going when I talk, I don't know. I'm not exactly sure what's coming out of my mouth for the first few seconds, but I know I've been doing it a long time.

Isn't that life? Isn't that life a bit? If you live a certain life, if you live any life, there's a certain amount of repetition. Ritual. Ritual. Maybe you should look at it like that. Don't look at it as a tedious redundancy. Look at it as the rituals of your life that keep you grounded in your process.

What is it? Self-help day? Is that what we're doing? I don't think so. I'm talking to Maggie Gyllenhaal today, and that turned out to be a great conversation. That's coming your way shortly. Now I'm teasing what you can fast forward to if you really want to. Right now, you could be like, oh, Maggie Gyllenhaal. I'm just going to, I don't even care what Mark has to say now. I understand. A couple of things I do want to say about things that I need to promote for myself.

A couple of things I do want to say about things that I need to promote for myself. The digital audio of my Netflix special, Too Real, is officially available for purchase tomorrow, December 14th. You can still pre-order today on the homepage at WTFpod.com. And starting tomorrow, you can get it directly on iTunes, Amazon, Google Play, or wherever you get digital music or video content, I imagine. Also, all merch is still still 30 off for the rest of this week at pod swag.com slash wtf you just enter wtf at checkout and boulder colorado i'm gonna be there shit when is that march 24th that March 24th my memory works as quick as I can find you know the link on in my browser that's how quick my memory worked right then yeah March 24th I'll be in Boulder tickets go on sale tomorrow it's a nice little theater I always like playing there I noticed the schedule two days after me

hot tuna is playing there and they're already sold out. People are going to see Yorma and Jack noodle around on them guitars. I've never seen them. I've never really locked into the Hot Tuna experience. So what's going on? What is happening? Well, first off, I want to thank all the people that sent in suggestions about my dishwasher, soapy tasting bowls and silicone, silicone, silicone apparatuses, steamers and things that just thank you for the advice in helping me solve my it tastes like soap problem. I think I'm going to try to resolve that by cleaning my dishwasher with a vinegar and baking soda. It's a couple-step process. I can't get into it right now. I'll let

you know if it works. And then I'm going to switch to a liquid dishwashing detergent that has no smell to it and maybe use vinegar as a rinsing agent. Now, I've tried these kind of hippie solutions before where you don't use a product, but you use vinegar or you use apple juice or not for that kind of thing. But there are holistic approaches to things that seem to not be as good as the chemically ridden products that smell nice and have nice labels. But maybe I'm wrong. But thank you. Thank you for all of your advice. I will take it.

So I guess I can be honest about I was a little haunted the other day and, and I, you know, this is heavy, but I, I, I mean, I, I'd like it to be hopeful in a sense. I just got to put this message out there because I think it's important because things are weighing on us. And I've talked about this before. I'd like to be funny right now, but I, I'm not, uh, maybe I'm, maybe I'm feeling a little funny, be funny right now but i i'm not uh maybe i'm maybe i'm feeling a little funny but uh well here's the deal i someone who i don't who i didn't really know but tried to help briefly but i tried i mean it's not not briefly i mean i tried to help this person they were having a drinking problem and they couldn't get out from under it. So I did what we do in the thing that I do.

We went to a thing with other people to try to do the sober thing. And this person was very squirrely about it and freaked out. And they could not, they just couldn't they they and i i said look you know you can contact me about this anytime if you want to go to a meeting if you want to you know if you if you're ready to do it and this was a few months ago and they didn't do it and i found out the other day that this person took their own life and it it haunted me and it's haunting me now like i didn't know this person but they are a defined person in my in my head because i tried to help them and this is not unusual in the world of of addiction and recovery and and whatever where people can't

bear the weight of it for i don't know what other problems this person had or anything else but i do know they had this problem and i guess i'm just saying that uh there is help and the the issue with this thing with if you have addiction of any kind is that uh it it locks it it's got a hold on your brain it's got a hold on your brain and you'll put off making a decision to help yourself because you can't think straight because your brain is seized. And this can happen with anything, man. I mean, it can happen with food, drugs, booze, sex, gambling, whatever it is, getting into debt. It can even happen with even anger. Anger is compulsively addictive. A lot of damage to yourself and others and i know that if you're hearing this and you're in the grips of it you're not going to hear exactly what i'm saying but i and maybe this won't work for you but you can get a window of reprieve and there is help out there

go find it because we don't know the alternative all right life is life what happens after that who the fuck knows at best uh you you know you might get you might get to fly and and feel good about everything for eternity at worst nothing nothing so i'm on set the other day and uh i'm sitting with uh the lovely alice and brie we're we're doing a scene and we're uh we're we're waiting to shoot and there's a another uh person an actor who's got a small part there and we get to talking right away and he just uh you know something came up on set and he's like yeah it's tough man you know it's tough being a conservative now and just weird you can't say things you can't this standard kind of uh patter you know like you know you got to be you got to be worried you got to be worried about everything you say. You got to be careful of what?

Not hurting people's feelings. Well, yeah, you know, whatever that is. I understand. You know, I am a comedian. I've had these conversations before. But then we started talking about, you know, he says, well, I'm a Republican. But, you know, I'm concerned about the environment and that kind of thing. I'm like, well, isn't that enough for you to not just buy in?

You know, I guess my point is, is that I just talked to him and I brought up some stuff that's in the news. And the interesting thing was, is that he knew none of it. He didn't, he hadn't heard anything about what was going on with the state legislature in Wisconsin or what the true agenda of his party is in the context of what's happening now. And and maybe some of you are sitting there now. Some of you Republicans are like, well, what is it? What do you know? How do you know that's true? There has to be a barometer of truth.

But you also have to you know go find it and not just sort of it's not even a party line thing you can't sort of buy into the constant destabilization of the truth by sort of you know independent speculative investigators with a conspiracy bent on the secret knowledge and hidden truths that are mostly bullshit there are facts but whatever the case my point is is that tremendously uninformed and willing to uh to sort of uh you know hold his ground but not in an aggressive way he was open and i i i am you know relatively open there was no anger in it on either side. And I think that eventually things, issues and realities will reveal themselves that hopefully all of us can wake up. And hopefully

it's not because we're all burning. Man, this is not going the way I wanted it to. Let me, how about I read this email? Because this is sort of what I was setting up. The subject line is just, thank you. I'm a new-ish listener. I think she meant new-ish. It says I'm a new-fish listener. But yeah. I am a new-ish listener as I recently stumbled across your podcast trying to find something

both my husband and I could listen to while driving up to see our daughter for parents weekend in Northern California. I don't think I'm in your predictable demographic. I'm a middle-aged Republican suburban mom, retired chemistry teacher, yet WTF has become my go-to podcast. You are a gifted interviewer and I enjoy every person whether they are are familiar to me or not, because of your conversational and empathetic style. While I don't agree with your politics, your sincerity and genuine concern for the country are palpable and draw me in to listen to another perspective. You are an example of how we can talk with civility because you speak from your truth, not disembodied ideology, and it immediately diffuses knee-jerk tension. I'm reading your book now and riveted by the addiction chapter. My

husband is 15 years sober, my father an angry drunk, and my mother a schizophrenic. I know the horrors of these stories, and they are important to tell. It will help people. It is helping me, and I've come very far in my coping, but there are little ghosts i just felt i had to reach out and thank you for being an open sincere voice and for bringing something wonderful and qualitatively different to podcasts i enjoy your creative contributions wherever they are so great so so great best patricia see we can talk we've all got problems we all handle the problems differently. You know, but and we all maybe maybe we all think the same. This all seems futile sometimes.

What will it take? I have found that that's and that's a good point that she made. You know, you speak from your truth and not not disembodied ideology and it immediately diffuses knee-jerk tension is it possible i know there are there are hard cases everywhere but is it possible that we can have these conversations i think so i think so how about some happy talk man how how how's your life how are your memories how do you hold on to them i've been reading this beastie boys book yes i'm going to talk to them but like it was one of those things where i love the beastie boys i've listened to a lot of their

records i listened to the hell out of a few of them and and but i i don't i didn't really know them or about them and you know i always assume that uh somehow or another we were similar but very different and slightly they're a little younger than me they just that the new york that they describe in this book is so was so beautiful i remember it from when i was a kid it was gritty and weird and sweaty and noisy and i i guess it kind of still is but there was a there was a sort of like edge to it there was a slight chaos to it there was a there was something holding it together there was a a kind of um self-regulating democratic stew of uh frequencies going on there and the one thing about New York though that like I you know I'm talking to Maggie Gyllenhaal and she's in the

deuce and that's like the 70s and I have vague memories of that because there was a time where where my I used to visit New York City I used to go to New Jersey when I lived in New Mexico as a teenager 14 15 years old I'd go to New Jersey visit my grandmother and they'd let us take the bus in and spend the day in new york go to port authority 63 73 76 77 maybe 78 i mean it wasn't the early 70s where it was complete fucking chaos but it was still pretty chaotic getting out there and like it just when i watch the deuce i have i have vague memories of that time just that that what i was talking about before that that that bit of chaos at the edge that bit of menace the bit of just you know garbage and things breaking down and people talking to themselves in the street and traffic and roads sort of crumbling uh but being very

and light and new york yeah maggie gyllenhaal is uh is is she's in the film The Kindergarten Teacher which is now streaming on Netflix she was great in The Deuce which we talk about she's always great I was excited to meet her a little intimidated but I think ultimately it went well this is me and Maggie

talking here in the garage you can get anything you need with Uber Eats well almost me and Maggie talking here in the garage. the upper details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Have you been to other people's homes to do podcasts? Okay, good. This is the first time. And never anyone's garage. Okay, good. Good. I just want to make sure that... I did a nice one, which was for backstage, you know, which was like where you're basically

talking to actors. Oh, yeah. Being interviewed by someone who, I don't know if he was an actor, but he was into actors. Yeah, yeah. And that was an acting one. That was where you talked about acting. Yeah. Was that a long one?

It was a nice long one. And that was in New York? That was in New York, yeah. And you went to a place with the guy? Yeah, I went to like a, I think I had auditioned for like a car commercial voiceover at the place. I didn't get it, but I had been there before. So you went in with a little PTSD about something that happened there. About rejection.

Yeah. So you live in New York, but have you always lived there? I was born there. In the city? Yep. Yeah. On 2nd Avenue and 2nd Street. Really?

Yeah. That's like right where, kind of where I used to live. It doesn't matter, but I mean, I know exactly. This was in 1977. 2nd and 2nd. There was a good AA meeting there back in the day. That seems right. At that church right there in the basement.

And what year does that? 77. Yeah, I wasn't there yet. Yeah, 77. And then before I turned one, my parents drove out here to California. So I grew up here. With you in the back? Yeah.

Strapped in? Yeah. Yeah. And then I moved back to New York when I was 17 to go to college. So they came out here for show business? Yeah. They're show business people? Yeah, my mom's a screenwriter and my dad's a director.

Are they still? Yeah. Has he show business people? Yeah, my mom's a screenwriter and my dad's a director. Are they still? Yeah. Do they make, has he made big movies? No. Well, my mom wrote Running on Empty. Yeah, yeah. The Sidney Lumet movie. Oh, yeah.

And as well as some other things. Yeah. And my dad, actually, I just saw a screening of this movie my dad directed called Waterland. Oh, yeah. Aren't you in that? Isn't that an old movie? I'm in that for two seconds. I like walk across the screen.

How old are you? 14. And so there was a screening of it and it's an old movie. There was a screening of it at Columbia Film School because they were honoring the guy who had produced it. And they flew my dad out and they did a Q&A. And my parents are divorced now. Right. But my mom was there.

Oh, really? Yeah. They get along? They sort divorced now. Right. But my mom was there. Oh, really? Yeah. They get along? They sort of do. Yeah. And it was kind of a nice thing that she was there in a way. Because, like, I don't know if you have a partner. But, like, for me, my husband is, like, he's a part of my work.

He actually sort of hates to talk about my work with me. But it doesn't matter. We still end up sometimes talking about it, you know? So for her to be there and also for, you know, I actually thought it was a great movie. I haven't seen it, but I mean, who asked, did your dad ask her to go or did she just go or like, how does that work? I don't think she's allowed to just go when we're divorced. I mean, that'd be sort of weird. Boundaries. There's boundaries. Yeah. He asked her.

He asked her. That's nice. Was it well received? It must be wild to have your movie screened after, what is it, 20 years?

Yeah, yeah. It was. It was a really good movie. Yeah. I mean, and I don't think they screen a movie again

very often after 25 years or whatever unless it's good. So you grew up in show business, basically. I mean, i think that that is a uh i would say that's inaccurate i mean people it's hard to know because yes i grew up

with my mom writing and my dad directing but they made like little movies they weren't stars you know right and i wasn't making movies i mean yes, yes, it's true. When I was 14, I walked across the screen in Waterland. And it's weird. It's kind of a funny thing that when I watched that, I was thinking, I already knew I wanted to be an actress. Right. And yet I'm sort of getting this tiny gig from my dad. And, like, it felt terrible, actually, to have this weird job for one second and have nothing to do. And I also had a little tiny little scene like that in another movie they made. actually to have this weird job for one second and I have nothing to do and

I also had a little tiny little scene like that in another movie they made together where I came in and said one line actually on my birthday when I was like 16 Which movie was that? It was called A Dangerous Woman. And they wrote that together? Or they did it together? My mom wrote it

and my dad directed it. Is that what led to the divorce? I think actually truly it might have had something to do with it no kidding they really didn't work well together my parents oh that's so that's sad i guess you learn something about people when you work with them you know like when you're in it it's so interesting actually because i really work well with my husband that's uh peter sars peter sars yeah we we act you guys are great actors separately and together when did you act together we did two plays together uh in new york two checkoff plays and it was like we fought sometimes for sure but it was also like heaven it was really he's an amazing actor yeah he is and just to be on stage with him you're like okay

this is gonna be fun whatever it is right uh and also i was just you know i am i just actually today today i'm 20 minutes of work away from finishing the first draft of this adaptation i'm doing of a book uh-huh um and i i showed it to my mother yeah as a screenwriter she was the first person i showed. So it was, you know. You're 20 pages away or 20 minutes away? 20 minutes of work away. Truly. Like, you know,

it has a the end on it. You know, I'm just like little tinkers before I send it to my producers. But I showed it to her. Yeah. And I remembered about my mother that I actually get along

with my mother notably better when we're talking about work than like at Thanksgiving, for example. Sure. Yeah. Was she supportive? What did she say? Did she give you notes?

Yes. I gave it to two people. I gave it to my mother and I gave it to Amy Herzog, who's a great playwright and who I worked with on another project. And they actually both gave me the same note. Which is? It was just about when this reveal happens. And they said I have to push it back.

And I thought that was interesting. And they were both very supportive. I'm thrilled by working on this adaptation. What's the book? It's called The Lost Daughter. It's an Elena Ferrante novel. Is it recent? I wonder when that book came out.

Ferrante made like a big splash recently. That's a pen name. Nobody knows who she is. She's an Italian author. Do you know who she is? I don't. You don't either? No.

How'd you get the rights to the book? I wrote to her publishers knowing that I would really, well, I asked her publishers, they said, write to her. Right. And they would get my letter to her. And I spent like about three weeks probably writing this letter to Ferrante. Handwritten? No. With like a wax seal. No. Delivered by a guy. A bird. Delivered by a bird. No, I just typed it and I emailed it.

And she gave me the rights. So that's how I haven't met her. What was it about the book? What's it about? What made you like this? Because like, and you're going to write the film, produce the film and be in the film? I'm going to direct it. I'm not going to act in it.

Is this the first one you've directed? Yeah. Have you directed, did you direct any of the De the deuce no i haven't have do you direct your show the what which my old show um on glow of glow yeah no no it's a little that's a little big for me i when i did marin i directed a couple but i was in every scene so it's not really the same experience yeah you're basically just asking the DP, is it good? Right. Okay, let's move on. Right.

Also, I kind of, James Franco directed the first season of The Deuce and he would be like in costume. Yeah. You know, directing, which is strange.

He directed how many? All of it? Two. Two. Yeah, because like, it's hard, but it seems to be, I think the key is

get the good DP. I think that's the key anyway. Yeah, right. No matter what. Right. But no, I'm not going to act in this. The person who would play the main part in it, it's too much. I mean, to me, I can't imagine doing all of that.

What is it about? You know, I haven't figured out how to say what it's about without giving everything away. Oh. But I'll say what's interesting to me, which I got to figure out, obviously. But it's what appealed to me about the book and also about all of the Ferrante, because there are a bunch of novels that kind of came into my life at the same time, and I read them all. Someone recommended it? Or you just... All of these books made like a big splash a couple of years ago.

All of these books made a big splash a couple of years ago. And she writes about... Basically, you read it and you're thinking, oh my God, this woman I'm reading about is so fucked up. And then a second later, you're like, oh my God, I totally relate to her. And then you get this feeling of maybe this hidden, fucked up stuff inside me is actually a common experience. And I think especially for women,

talking about mothering, talking about sex, talking about a feminine experience in the world, I think that there aren't all that many examples of an articulation of something that's really, really real. what that's what made me want to work on the book well that's interesting i mean because you do that you've done that in many movies that like i as a comedian i sort of make a living off of sharing my fucked upness right and that's what i make my living right right it's just not funny when i do it. No, but it's important because I don't know what stops like, you know, in terms of talking gender. I mean, I'd imagine that there are certain

expectations that everybody has, but there's a cultural shame component to exploring your fucked upness. And as soon as you let it out, like so many people are like, oh my God, thank God. I feel so much better. I thought I was the only one sitting here in this shit. Because everyone's so separated and isolated in their own little worlds. And it takes people through a film or through a podcast or whatever to voice some of that stuff. And it really helps in a very deep way. I totally agree.

And I think that is so often what I'm trying to do when I'm acting. Yeah. And I think she, in these books I read of hers, went further than I, you know, or certainly as far as I'd ever seen. And it was inspiring to me. Yeah. You know, and I think. It's a relief, right? Totally.

It is. It's a relief, right? Totally. It is. It's a relief. And also, I think sometimes when you watch someone else doing it. Yeah. Or read about another, about a character, you get to have like a little objectivity, you know. And I think it allows a little more empathy. Yeah. You know, you get to go like, oh, I have a little space to look at that. And as opposed to when it's happening in your own life, something painful, you're just in the middle of it.

Or else if you're one of those people that's not aware of how you're broken, then you end up just judging people who are broken the same way. What the fuck is wrong with that person? It takes God knows what to make you go like, oh, I'm that. Yeah. Yes. Well, that's what the Ferrante does. Yeah. Or I think that, you know, sometimes that's what I sort of think all of us are doing like on the deuce. Yeah.

Or like a group of people who the culture has totally marginalized and pushed to the edge. I mean, I follow Stormy Daniels on Twitter. Sometimes she always responds to this mean stuff that people say. I want to just write to her and say, please stop reading it. And yet I see all this awful stuff that people say. And I think, I mean, look at this dehumanized group of people. You know, the culture has dehumanized them. And I think in a lot of ways in The Deuce we're going like,

but hang out a little bit with an imagined version of this group of people. Can you still dehumanize them? Can you still call them these awful names? Can you still write them off if you see them as human beings? Well, that's always been like this weird, you know, that creative struggle like Baudelaire or anybody. You know, the poetry of the disenfranchised and the vice-ridden, whatever it is, that there's a humanity to it that has an understanding that people who are frightened or trying to behave a certain way don't have.

Right. You know what I mean? I was thinking about, actually, my daughter, who's 12. Yeah. Peter played her. Why was he playing her queen? Maybe because that, oh, he'd seen a documentary about queen, which I guess was coming out because of the movie. And so he was playing

her Bohemian Rhapsody and then he played her We Are the Champions, which of course I'd heard that song, but I was never like that into queen. So I, anyway, I listened to it really carefully because Peter was playing it to her. And I was like, you know, Ramona, the thing is, this is not a song being sung by the head of the football team or whatever. This is a guy who is a gay outcast. When was that song written? I don't know.

Early 80s, late 70s. To say we are the champions from that perspective is so different than saying we are the champions after you just won your Senate race or whatever. It's such a beautiful thing. Did she get it? Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah.

That's a good lesson. Yeah. So the deuce, yeah, I mean, I think you bring a lot of rawness to that part, but a lot of strength, too. The whole thing is kind of it may like i vaguely remember new york when it was like that but you weren't born yet right no so that's like what 71 the first season is 71 and the second season is 78 yeah so like 71 i kind of remember at 78 i definitely remember because i was taking the bus in from jersey when i visit my grandmother to go walk around that place i remember seeing like when i was in college, maybe freshman year, I went to a live sex

show because I wanted to know what exactly that was in Times Square. What year is that? That had to be like 1980, 81. They were still there. That's like the third season is going to be 82. Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, like it was sort of like in the, I don't know what season it is, but once they figured out the booth.

So it was that second season? Yeah. You know, it was that thing. And like you go in and you put these tokens in and the thing comes up and there's just people fucking or whatever. I don't know what was going on on a rotating table. Yeah. But there's an awkwardness to it because those people in there are doing whatever they're doing.

They've got this half semicircle of faces just looking in these windows. Yeah, yeah. And I remember one, the woman came up and goes, are you tipping? And I'm like, yeah, I guess so. I mean, I wasn't really there

to do what people do there. I was there to see what the hell it was. But it just seems so human and awkward and weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I read a couple of autobiographies of people who did it, you know,

and the way they describe it and like the sheets were dirty or, you know, even things like that a couple people did it like with their boyfriends, but they would have to do so many shows a day

that they started to figure out that they would have to be, they would have to fake it so they couldn't keep it going. How are they going to do it? It wouldn't be a very fun thing to watch a guy trying. Although, very interesting. Yeah.

God damn it. Come on. And make everyone feel good. Yeah. He's just like us. Happens to everybody. Totally. So what do you think

like, what do you think that show, because I've watched a bunch of, I think I watched all the first season, I don't know if I caught up

totally on the second season. What do you think that David, or you in that sense, is, what's the point of it? Why that time? What is fascinating culturally?

Because like, you know he's a multi-leveled guy, Simon is. Yeah. And you know, and I he's a multi-leveled guy, Simon is. Yeah. And, you know, and I don't know because I don't, I see the mafia stuff. I see some politics. Usually there's many tiers of civil society operating in his things. What do you think is his, what's he throwing?

Well, there's also all the civil stuff with the state government and what's happening with the cops. Right. The real estate. Yeah, yeah. It's all gets brought in. Who's going to clean up who and who's the labor force and who is sort of middle management. Right. Right. And I actually think like transactional sex is so much of what we're all talking about now, too. You know, like in isn't that in a way what we're talking about in terms of, well, you give me a blow job. I give you a job in this movie or whatever. And how, and I think it's, what I think is really interesting, and this is a little bit off of the deuce, but is, you know, look, women, women couldn't vote a hundred years ago. Yeah.

It just happened like less than a hundred years ago. Sure, yeah. And, you know, actually in Mary Poppins, I was just watching Mary Poppins with my kids. And there was something where like, you remember the little kids go with their pennies to the bank and the guy from the bank wants their pennies. And my daughter was like, why can't, why doesn't he want her penny? Yeah. And I was like, I don't think that women could have a bank account.

Oh, right. You told her that? I could be wrong, but I don't think women could even have, they couldn't have credit cards. Okay. So like. Without their husband's name or something. So then how, as a woman, do you get what you need if you can't make any money?

Right. Or if there are very few roads open to you to make money. Sure. So sex becomes a part of that conversation. Right. Sexual wiles, how do you get a man, whatever, all those things that are so looked down upon. Marriage itself. Absolutely.

Is a contractual sort of ownership trip, or it used to be. If you can't make money yourself. So then to just totally vilify sex workers, and I love how it's called the oldest profession in the world, and yet it's so hated. So I think in some ways, the sexual politics of all of it and how, and Candy then all of a sudden is, she has really big needs. You know, she has really big desire. Creatively.

I think even though she's not an intellectual, but like in her mind, in her heart and every way. And what is she supposed to do with that? And what are all of these women supposed to do with that? And what are all of these women supposed to do with that in 1971? What's interesting, too, that like, you know, what you're saying in that what we were talking about before is like, are prostitutes hated or are they just disregarded? Because it's one of those things where if you talk about it the way you're talking about transactional sex, there's very few, I would think there's a lot of people that are in relationships that are not perfect or even desirable because of transactional necessity. Sure.

Right. And I guess hookers, prostitutes, I think the thing that's the most sad to me is just they're not, you know, they're not accounted for as humans. Yeah. So I think you said, are they hated or are they? Yeah, yeah. I think they're hated. Oh, yeah. I think not accounting for them as humans is a kind of hatred, you know. But I also think it's interesting.

David was saying to me, we had an interesting conversation when the first reviews came out for The Deuce this season. And they were saying, like, this is a season about the women. this is a season about the women. And David was taking some issue with that and saying it's not actually, it's about the interaction between the women and the men and the way that they together sort through this broken element of our culture. And I think that's still true.

I still think it's something we've agreed to do together. Yes, women were backed into a corner when they made the agreement. But like it's together. We're going to have to change it. Anyway, I think a lot of I agree with him. And I think the ways in which the men on the show are I mean, they're not heroes. I mean, who's the hero on it? But it's interesting how it seems that sometimes the prostitutes are more human to the cops. Yeah.

That their relationship with these cops that they know because they get busted every other day have a sort of human understanding of the situation, unlike either the Johns or even James Franco's character who's once removed from it. And the pimps have a very specific thing. And they, you know, they. Which is based on fantasy, which is less real, I think. Right. Then the cops relationship would come where they're like, okay, we're in jail. This is all pretend. Can we have Chinese food, please?

Yeah, exactly. You know, which is a great scene. I wasn't in that scene, so I could really appreciate it. And they understand the reality of what's really going on from all sides. The cops do. And, you know, unlike a lot of the men in the rest of the cast. Right. Well, like, what are they selling?

It's interesting. They're selling something very real. Yeah. It's their physical body in the most intimate way, physically, along with a fantasy. Yeah. You know. And you kill a guy, don't you? Not on purpose.

He dies from getting a blowjob. I don't think that she can be held responsible for that. Okay, that's true.

So when you're doing it, I mean, how, what, was it, because your character is sort of like, it has a great arc

because you're going places. But I just watched the one where your dad won't let you in the house and it's horrendous. Oh, the very last one. Yeah. Oh, my God. Well, you know what I love about that? I'll tell you something.

Yeah. I love basically Candy. Candy in the first season, it's totally obvious. And then the second season is just her like way modus operandi as they say it like her way of being she does not have the luxury to feel sorry for herself or to be sort of even sad you know like that somebody who uh has a little more leeway in terms of their survival has the space to go like oh i'm feeling really bad today and you know right um candy doesn have that. And so she gets told no over and over and over and over again. In the first season, she, you know, gets beat up and she gets, you know, this and that.

The second season, it's more like she's like, I got a great idea. No. Oh, okay. Let me come at it this way. I got another great idea. No. Right. You know.

And yet she never falls apart. Right. She's like, it's cool. It's cool. I can totally handle this. I can actually handle anything. And I started even feeling that. She's like, it's cool. It's cool. I can totally handle this. I can actually handle anything. And I started even feeling that way when we were shooting it. Like, I remember the first season they were like, your candy's always like cool with everything.

And so they would make it worse for me. They'd have a rat go up my arm while I'm giving a blow job in a movie theater and then get hit my head on the, you know, so many. Then I get the shit beat out of me. Then I get this. And I almost felt like they were going, are you going to break? And I was like, no, I'm not going to break. That's your choice. But then, of course, in season one, she does break.

So it gets her off the street for a minute. But so in season two, I just was like, I'm never going to break. I'm going to like, she's going to, she doesn't have the luxury. Yeah. And that reveals that there's so much at stake for her. That reveals that it's life or death. Right. Yeah.

Like if someone says to you, will you like, I don't know, eat this scorpion or you're going to die. Eat the scorpion. Right. Yeah. And yet then at the very end, there's this scene with her daddy, you know, and she's like, die, eat the scorpion. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yet, then at the very end, there's this scene with her daddy, you know? And she's like, and she can't handle it. Well, what did you put in, like, I found myself asking questions about the character, about what, as an actress, why didn't she, why wouldn't that character do something else? What do you mean?

As a job. Oh, why, in the beginning, why is she? Yeah, I mean, like, what did you put in a job oh why in the beginning why is she yeah i mean like do you what did you put in place in your mind for that anything well you mean in like season one yeah before she finds out that she's a filmmaker yeah i think i think in some ways that's a question that a lot of people have asked me oh really well in a way people are like well why doesn't she do something else she's got the money she's got a nice apartment i mean nice enough and also i think that sexuality in in general at that time just post 60s there was a different point of view about it i think culturally we've we've grown to assume uh from

from you know people talking and and that that people in porn or in prostitution are somehow fundamentally victims. Whereas I like that it's not addressed because you're coming off the sexual revolution. It's like, why not? That's exactly what I was going to say. I don't think it's as simple as why not. But I think that's how it started. I think she came from this really uptight family she and she like was like i'm out

yeah here right with it with a i you know i and again not addressed how her father is such a monster but you do see in the first season that he's basically destroyed her brother who's gay and you know and i just think she was like fuck all of this right and she's gets wild yeah and i think that it gets then absorbed into survival. And I think she gets pregnant. And I think she finds that it's actually like a viable way for her to survive. And I don't think she has a lot of other skills or tools. And I think actually when you meet her in the beginning of

season one she's surviving but i think she's kind of dead inside right and i think that's always an interesting place to start a character she's dead inside and then by episode two of season one she goes and makes her first movie and she's like lit up oh my. You know, and it's not the sex. The sex is incidental in the porn she's making. She's like, oh, shit. That makes a frame around it. And, like, you put the frame here. Whoa, versus there. You know, and I think she's also, I think in that scene she's even like, oh, my God, we're all made of light.

You know what I mean? I think she just goes. And then there's no going back. And then she's lit up. And I think that's kind of great. Yeah, it's great. But she's a strong character from the beginning, even though she's dead inside. She is.

But I think partially being dead inside is what's allowing her to, like, make her money. Sure. Send her where it needs to go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sleep with all these guys. I mean, I was learning about it. I mean, you know, the sex workers now will take issue with sleep with all these guys. I mean, I was learning about it. I mean, you know, the sex workers now will take issue with this. They always have whenever I've said this. But to me, it seems like a very difficult job that requires disassociation

in order to do. Now, whenever I say that in the press, I get a lot of tweets from sex workers who say every job takes disassociation. Yeah, but it's sort of a weird false equivalence in a way. I mean, to be honest with you, neither of us have ever done it. So, you know, I can't like, but to me, it does seem particularly difficult. And when I started to learn about it, you know, in 1971, maybe like six to eight, eight men a night. Yeah. You know, it's a lot.

Yeah. And I think it's also, it has something to do with, right, well, sex workers and the porn industry and the prostitution industry has sort of sought and succeeded at normalizing itself a bit. And I think they deserve respect as people, and I understand their argument. But I think that depending on how you feel about sex is really going to decide how you feel about whether it's a job or disassociation. It really has to go deeper because we have this idea that sex means something other than just a job. And it's kind of hard to shake that. Well, and also, I mean, I would imagine that sex workers still feel sex means something

in their personal relationships. Yeah. Well, that's the other one where you're like, really? How does that work? But then again, it's also like, what about my weird job, our weird job, where you could go to work and you can, like the scene that you were talking about with my my dad i can weep all night long i can go through this whole thing and then i can also just have a relationship with my father my real father that's true you know so and and i think our job is really weird and i've been thinking that more and more lately acting yes

it is weird and and it's it what what else is what's also weird about it is i've argued and i'm not obviously i'm not the actor you are, but I've argued to people that think it's somehow, like, especially, you know, right-wingy kind of people, like Hollywood types, and they've got it easy. It's a relentless, weird job. Yeah. And, you know, whatever they think we're doing, it's very time-consuming. It's very sort of like it can be a chore.

Yeah. No, it's work for sure. It really is. 16 hour days, you know. Yeah. I mean, you're not, you know, you're not at a lathe. No, no. Unless that's your character, but it is work.

Yeah. Well, what are you thinking about it in terms of weirdness? Why is it dawning on you now? Huh. Why now? I don't know totally the answer to that i mean just in terms of the work thing i mean so it's not even so much the labor right so you say like a kindergarten teacher uh we made in 22 days yeah i mean so much work you can't even stop for one second uh changing my clothes in the bathroom on the Staten Island ferry.

For real. And many other strange places. Sure. And going for however many hours a day. Was it a budget problem? A budget issue that you shot it like that? Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Sure. Of course, nobody wants to do that. And yet, it does make it. Couldn't put a trailer on the ferry? It makes it have a great, no trailers at all, you know, makes it have a great feeling and energy. Yeah, I was going to say agency, maybe that too. But it's not that.

It's not that that bothers me. It's, okay, let me put it this way. I was really just feeling like, okay, weird to put on someone else's clothes, go through all of these feelings, whether they're sexual or painful or whatever they are. And they're not me and my story. And they kind of are me and my story. Yeah. And then I read this quote my friend sent me after she saw The Kindergarten Teacher, this Ann Carson quote. my friend sent me after she saw the kindergarten teacher,

this Anne Carson quote. Anne Carson did all these translations of Greek tragedies and she was writing about tragedy. And she was basically saying, we were sort of talking about this before. She was basically saying, why do we have tragedies? Why do we watch tragedies? And maybe comedy is similar in that you're saying

you're going to the core of what's most fucked up. Yeah. And she says. With a little relief involved. Yeah, exactly. And maybe even tears are another kind of relief, right? So she says, we need tragedies because they basically they expose our rage and our pain. And if you have an actor doing the job of putting it on a stage for you,

it's like I was saying before, it gives you a little objectivity about your own rage and pain. Oh, yeah. There you go. And so then all of a sudden when I read that, I was like, no, okay, I have a normal job. That's a really cool thing to do. I'm happy to do that. That is a description of what I'm trying to do. But sometimes- Finally, I know. When I'm like, I don't know. It's so fun to put on six inch heels and hot pants and a crazy wig and walk down the street. Actually, the more fiction, the easier it is.

You know, like the kindergarten teacher where it's just me and my hair and not so different than me. And that character is a little morally challenged too, eh? Well, I would say she's morally challenged in a way Candy is not. Right. She's really trying to figure out what's wrong. Yeah. Something's wrong, but she misidentifies it. Uh-huh.

And what's your experience with poetry in general? Some of my very, very close friends, my very best girlfriend is a poet and she's a professor at Bard and she sends me her poems very intermittently. Yeah. Um, and they're like, it takes me a while to chew on them and think about them, but then they're like a sort of straight line into her mind, which is cool. Into her mind. And you know her, right? Yeah. Yeah.

It's a very, very like deep level level conversation it's someone i know really well yeah you know like if you're like how are you really yeah yeah you know yeah right um and i've never been like a really a good reader of poetry i've never been someone who is moved by it every once in a while yeah i'm moved by it and i sort of takes my breath away um but i find it hard i wonder how the poets uh define themselves like you just had that moment with the what's her name ann carson yeah yeah like because poet that's even more esoteric but like it's all it's been so essential for so long for some reason yeah you know that poetry is like has been there since the beginning and there are these people that are carrying this torch and it must be important to somebody outside of academia i would think because i've i read it i

still have a bunch of poetry books i wrote poems when i was younger there there is an equation element to it that there there's a weight to solving something with it well because it's almost like a kind of alchemy like you put a few words together in a certain way and it sort of makes this feeling or makes this expression of something, which is why I think it's sort of an interesting, plays an interesting role in the movie. Yeah. Basically, the movie is about a woman who's an artist who isn't heard. And why not? Yeah.

And what happens when a woman with a vibrant mind is just pushed aside and not heard? a woman with a vibrant mind is just pushed aside and not heard. Now, the movie is a kind of thriller, horror, rollercoaster version of the answer to that. But it all revolves around that kid's poetry, right? Well, I see. I don't know. I think it revolves around her unmet need. And I think she sees in that kid what she needs to see because she's so hungry. And of course, she tries to feed herself. I mean, you can't feed yourself off of a five-year-old child. A five-year-old child is supposed to get fed by the grown-up woman. I wish you would have told my parents that. Well, but I think that's part of why the movie resonates because, you know, like Peter used to

say in a horror movie, like, what's the real horror? Yeah. Right. So, like, in what's the one with Ellen Burstyn where she's the actress, super famous horror movie. Oh, The Exorcist. The Exorcist. Yeah. Well, in a way, like, at the root of that is, like, this mother who's absent or, you know, she's a working mother.

Yeah. And that's sort of every mother on some level. Uh-huh. And so it feeds into that fear. Right. mother and that's sort of every mother on some level and so it feeds into that fear and either you are a mother or you have a mother and you know or the same with like rosemary's baby you know it's like what is this thing growing inside me that everyone can relate to so here i think i think every grown-up feeds off children in ways that they shouldn't and their pureness of spirit that like i think that if you get to a point where you're so bitter or so compromised or so hungry for relevance or definition that you can envy a child.

There's a purity of vision that you wish you could have as a grown-up, but you can't really. That's so interesting. I mean, honestly, yes, I think that's very, very interesting. And I think envy is such an interesting part of all of this because, I mean, for me, again, I kind of relate this a little bit to sexual politics because all of that's been on my mind. So here's a woman who's not heard. Gael Garcia Bernal, his character, gets to decide what poetry is worthwhile and what poetry isn't yeah

I think just a guy that's always the way it's just one fucking guy it's always one fucking guy I mean the thing is I do think it's often one fucking guy

in every business in every situation right why didn't the movie go well Joe right who the fuck is Joe he's part of the team

what the fuck is wrong with that guy yeah exactly but it's I'm just saying it's not as often Well, Joe. Right. Who the fuck is Joe? He's part of the team. What the fuck is wrong with that guy? Yeah, exactly. But I'm just saying it's not as often one fucking woman. No, that's what she, yeah. And so I think, not that that's never the case, of course it is, but this is sort of, I think, about what is feminine work and what happens when it isn't heard. So the kids' work, I think there's a way to watch the movie.

I don't think it's the way the movie is actually naturally constructed, but there's a way to watch the movie. I don't think it's the way the movie is actually naturally constructed, but there's a way to watch the movie where all of it's coming from her. Where in a way she's, I mean, in a really trippy reading of the movie, she's actually really just kind of imagining all of this. But also it could just be five-year-olds say amazing things all the time. They do, yeah. Who writes it? If you write it down and you put this line break or you didn't hear that word and you put this word in, who is the author? Right.

Maybe that's just my subjective take on it. Well, I think that would have to be the character's take on it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So with your kids, well, the neat thing is trippy because like my brother's got teenagers he's got a teenage boy and he's upset right now because uh he can't communicate with the kid like and it's like it's really kind of hurting his feelings like you know why can't i just i can't

talk to him we can't talk and i'm like i think that's part of it man yeah you know but i mean i imagine that parental needs that there's i don have kids, but it seems like it's a heartbreaking endeavor. I think it is. I do. I think once you have children, you can't not be heartbroken either because you miss that thing. Also, it does fuck you up. It just cracks your mind open in an incredible way, but a disorienting way. And then you're living in that disorientation all the time. Yeah. Deep love, constant change, missing the old thing, confused about the new thing, you know? It's hardcore.

And then just, I would imagine just the pain of empathy watching them struggle through every age. Especially for me. Yeah. Once they, like, I have a 12-year-old. Uh-huh. I don't like to talk about my kids too much, but publicly just

because I want to protect them but to now see a 12 year old a seventh grader I have deep intense memories of that time you know in a way that the pain from when you're six I don't feel it quite the same way no seventh grade was like one of those like that was a big year yeah a lot of things happened in seventh grade well that's exciting you gotta keep those channels of communication open stay on top of that yeah but of course also you're doing everything for the first time i know so you like mess up i know like how you don't know how to feel you don't know if it's good or bad or like yeah well good luck how old's the other one six wow. Wow, that's a big gap.

Yeah. Was that on purpose? Well, I started pretty early, you know, and when I, you know, so I wasn't in any hurry to do it again. And when I first had my daughter, I was sort of like, okay, one is good. One is enough. We really waited until we were ready. Well, that's nice. It's a nice gap because then

you'll have like one will be moving on and then you're going to be going through 12 with the other one. But heartbroken. Yeah, heartbroken, you know, FaceTiming a lot. So like you say, it's good, though. It's productive that that Peter's an actor and that you're both in the same racket. I mean, you say like because we were talking about your parents, but you guys work well together. So how does that look with actors? I mean, just at home. I mean, I say, like, because we were talking about your parents, but you guys work well together. So how does that look with actors? I mean, just at home. I mean, I imagine you don't mean work well together only on stage or whatever, but do you? Right.

Well, I mean, there's the very simple stuff of, like, I'm so sorry. I said I was going to get home to put the girls to bed so that you could be out and go do the thing you wanted to do. But, like, we didn't get the scene and I'm here, and when you're coming home, I have no idea. Oh, he understands that. No, I have no idea. He truly understands that. You know, I think, yeah, I have a huge amount of artistic respect for him. Yeah.

So if I didn't, I think that'd be hard, you know, because he'd give me some idea about something I asked him about. And I actually haven't seen any of the Astars born. I haven't. I saw the Vastrazan one. But no, just that one is, you know, they're both in the same game, but one becomes huge. The other one just sort of stays, I think. Right.

It's a heartbreaking thing. But do you approach the craft in the same way? Yeah, I think we do. And I think he's older than me. He's seven, almost eight years older than me. And at first he, God, he like blew my mind with some of the stuff he was saying about acting. I was like, oh shit. Oh wow. That's how he did the number on you. It's part of how he did. He also showed me all sorts of cool, like, you know, Japanese movies and stuff in his bed on the Lower East Side.

He totally did. I'd never seen anything like that. Spill your mind. Never came back. Yeah, that's right. And now, though, also, we had the same acting teacher for many years who was like. Who was that? She died two years ago.

Her name's Penny Allen. Oh, really? Where is that? New York? No, here, actually. She's the most incredible woman. She also ended up being a really, like, one of my closest friends. She was almost 80 when she died.

Well, let's go back then and come back to this. So how did you start acting? I mean, with discipline. You know, what was the training? Did you do college? I acted, you know, in high school. I did all these plays, and I took it super seriously. And I learned all I could learn. Even though you look back and you're like, I played Nurse Ratched at 14.

Powerful. Best Nurse Ratched. But at the time, I took it just as seriously as I take my work now. So I was doing things like that. I went to college and I did plays there. But then when I was at Columbia, I started to feel like... What did you study there? I studied English.

And I studied English because I was like, wait, wait, I'm at Columbia. I'm going to... Learn. Maybe I should take English instead. And I'm so glad I did. And then when I got out, I just started working, and I didn't have a lot of technique. And when I made Secretary, Steve Shainberg, who directed Secretary, was working with Penny Allen, and I didn't know her. Working with her how?

As an actor? As a director. Oh, he was asking. She was helping him. Consulting. Yeah, I guess. I never met her. I just once heard her voice on an answering machine where he was like, you got to listen to this.

And I guess she'd said something like, oh, no, maybe this is just a story he recounted where she was like, so what is the scene about? She has this really funny accent, even though she's from Boston. And he was like, I don't know, maybe it's about, you know, like their interaction or their whatever, like getting to the bottom of their connection. And she was like, no, no darling the scene is about fucking and as i heard had heard that story about her and i heard her funny voice on the panting machine and then when i met peter he worked with her and he introduced me to her and um i fell in love with her you know she really taught me. She does this sort of actor studio technique.

What's the event of the scene? The event. The event. I can explain to you what that means. And what are your needs and what are the obstacles to your needs? So the event is the most exciting thing because the event is basically where you as an actor have some artistic say over what you're doing. Here are the words of the scene, but what is it about?

What needs to happen in the scene no matter how it happens? Right. You could laugh through it. You could cry through it. You could do it standing on your head. But what – So that's sort of like the conflict or the – whatever it is. Well, no, it's – you could have a very literal event.

Like you could say, oh, these people are saying I – oh, I want to buy a sandwich. You could say, well, the event is buying a sandwich. Or what I'm more into is, okay, they're saying they want to buy a sandwich, but really this scene is an apology. So you've got to sort that out. That's the creativity. That's where you get to have a point of view. And then you get to go into, but I only sorted that out a few years ago. Isn't that wild?

Yes. I mean, you were six movies in before you did Secretary, really. I mean, like jobbing actress, like in the background kind of movies, you know? But that was the one that broke you, really. That was a big, I remember that got a lot of sort of like, ooh. No, that was an amazing experience artistically, because Steve Schoenberg was like really interested in what was happening with me. Amazing experience artistically, because Steve Sheinberg was like really interested in what was happening with me, you know, not trying to jam his ideas only into the piece, but his ideas mixed with mine, mixed with James's.

Why did this piece come to us at this moment? You know, what is it that I need to work through by doing this movie, you know, and all of that was a play in Secretary. And it was you took a lot of risks. Yeah. Right? I mean, that was, you, the plot was that your boss, it was, what was it, that you were,

it was a B, like a S&M kind of trip. Yeah. Right? And it happened organically? It wasn't, you weren't doing that going in. No, no, it turned, it's basically, basically, it's a love story between two people who love each other in a way that's unusual. Right, right. You know, and that's, and I, you know, and I mean, yeah, I didn't have a lot of technique. But did doing that, I mean, because it seems like we're talking about, you know,

transactional sex and about sex in general. I mean, how did that at that time kind of blow your mind in terms of the sort of scope of sexuality? Well, let me put it this way, actually. So I had just finished college. I was probably 22 when I made it, I think. And I had been at Columbia in 1999, 8, 9, I think it was 2000 we shot it. And I was studying feminist literary criticism and reading half of it and going to the...

So all that stuff was on my mind. I thought, okay, I'm coming in to make this from this. I'm an intellectual. I'm a feminist. I know what I'm coming in to make this from this. I'm an intellectual. I'm a feminist. I know what I'm going to say. And I would say that is not even close to the most interesting stuff that's happening with me in that movie. It's all the stuff I didn't have any idea about, being like a 22-year-old and learning about, like, being a little bit of a woman. And I don't know exactly how that happened. learning about like being a little bit of a woman.

And I don't know exactly how that happened. But I mean, really the point of all of the like technique and everything is how do you let your unconscious into your work? How do you just create a space where what's on your mind is both consciously and unconsciously in the work? Right. And that happened there. Yeah. And then, you know, you have to be able to ensure that it happens. Yeah. And that's where it gets difficult. That's the job. That's the job. Right. And that happened there. Yeah. And then, you know, you have to be able to ensure that it happens. Yeah. That's the job. That's the job. Right. That's right. Huh. You're unconscious getting into. Well, I mean, that must come. A lot of it must come from experience and being comfortable, like relaxing into the role and not and not and not assuming that it's not you in a way.

Right. I think it is you. Yeah. Right. And I was thinking about, yeah, Peter has sometimes said, oh, I love. He said actually, oh, like Lisa Spinelli in The Kindergarten Teacher. He said, I just love to take her out. But he does.

He does take her out, you know. So you're role playing again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But, like, I think it's not just experience and having, I mean, I think, yes, having some experience is, like, so helpful. I think there's also, like, you're sort of asking me, like, there is a craft. Yeah. And sitting down and going, like, what is on my mind?

That's part of it. That's within the event. That's within the what is on my mind? That's part of it. That's within the event. That's within the event. That's right. That's part of it. And then there's another part of just, I don't know how you do this part. Like just making space for other stuff to bubble up. And then you don't know till later.

Oh, wow. Isn't that cool that that happened? Because look, it connects to this and it connects to that. And it's saying this. And I'm trying to do the same thing in my writing uh-huh you know just sometimes just let stuff come up and then i literally i'm like whoa i can't believe i wrote that because look well yeah 40 pages later this thing has to happen and writing's a trip because you really don't know like you know like as you're in it you things are revealed to you and it's a solitary trip whereas with acting you know you got whoever you're dealing with yeah and

you know you can surprise yourself in a moment but it might not have anything to do with you yeah right but writing it's sort of all like kind of like wow that kind of like i think it always has to do with you yeah even but i, but I, I have been like totally, but it's interactional and that I'm so used to, right. You're like, okay, who are you? Yeah. Okay. In fact, I'll tell you that in a second, but yeah, you, you know, you're like trained. I'm very trained to like interact. Right. That's how we work. Yeah. And even like, okay, you're the director. Okay. I'm going to, what are you going to give me? And how am I also going to make sure I have the space I need to do what I need to do?

And all directors are different. And all directors are different. And so then it's like this constant exercise in interacting with people. But the pleasure of just sitting by myself at my desk, going the speed I want to go at, like taking my time, not having to negotiate with anybody. Right, right. It's like so amazing. Right. But I went to, I was just going to say this thing about being trained

to interact. You're like, okay, we're going to do this scene for four hours. That's it. I'm going to meet you right now. What's up?

There was this thing in New York recently that was like this opera and it was on the High Line and you just walked down the whole High Line and all these singers and actors

in this really trippy way were kind of like looking at you and singing these things and thousands of them. Right. And both Peter and I and then my brother went another day and he said the same thing. It was super intense for me because I kept feeling like I had to like act like sort of meet each of them and like be there for them. And like after like a hundred of them, I was like, okay, you got to chill out. It was like sort of like weird professional courtesy. Like we're used to it, you know, you go on set and there's someone who comes in and they've got three lines and you're like, I'm gonna be right here with you.

Yeah. And you're exhausted. Well, a hundred's a lot. You made it through a hundred. I found, I was fighting with myself the whole time not to just like, yeah. Wow. That must have been the one day that every singing actor in New York works. Yeah, totally.

It's true. They all got a gig for however long that went on for. So you got the event, and then you've got your needs, and then what? So then, yeah. So let's say it's an apology, even though you're talking about sandwiches. Yeah, yeah. Then what do you need? So you've got to learn how to figure that out.

Yes. And that is like the exciting. That's one of the most exciting artistic things. And then you've got to ask the director? No. Never tell the director. Never, ever. Good, good.

Even though, and I still fuck this up where i'm like oh this is such a great idea i'm gonna just totally have to tell them and they always get freaked out they do oh yeah always you can't just just do your work no because i always have really trippy things and they're well i've learned from talking directors a lot of them are like they hire you to be because you got the part right yeah they just just do it. Right, right. I hired you for a reason. Don't bother me with the, yeah. I say don't ever give anyone a chance to tell you no. Ah, yeah.

Because people like to do that, I think. Well, yeah, just do it. And if they go like, cut, can you make an adjustment? Yeah, okay. And then every once in a while, the things that they want you to adjust are so exciting. Yeah, it's like, that's really good. Oh, thanks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know. It's like, that's really good. Oh, thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know. So, do you, have you learned a lot from directors? I mean, heading into this project you're doing, I mean, who are the ones that have made an impact on you? Because you've worked with a lot of, like, I didn't even know you worked with John Sayles and that must have been kind of a trip.

I have learned a lot from directors. I mean, one thing I, one thing I noticed when I was pretending to be a director on TV playing Candy was there'd be times where scenes would be written and she'd be sort of a little sort of snarky with her actors, get irritated and stuff. And I always took those same lines and made her kind because I think Candy, like me, you know, she's been naked lying on the table. Right. Yeah. Oh, that I've seen. I've seen that choice.

I've seen you do that in the show. I always do it. Yeah. Unless there's this one guy, this one character who's such a motherfucker at the end. She's just like, I'm sorry, but you need to get the fuck out of here. You know? Yeah. And that's fine, too.

I mean, of course, you're not just going to get walked all over. Right. But I believe that kindness really gets you somewhere with actors and i i so i think like i remember um scott cooper once uh who directed crazy heart oh yeah you got nominated for that that's big that was you were great in that that's a cool movie thanks i like him jeff bridges got cooper oh yeah jeff Like, it's just like, he's, he's such a, like a kind of like a, he's like old hippie, you know? Yeah. Jeff is great. I've interviewed him. It was, he was exactly how you think like, yeah, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I asked him to host a screening of the kindergarten teacher recently and he was like nope can't do it but here's a video of my buddhist teacher and the guy was really interesting and he was wearing a red

beret and smoking a cigar the buddhist teacher one yeah so what did scott cooper say scott cooper one day and we were just getting to know each other and we're i was just like i was standing outside a motel room door and we'd done a couple takes and he just comes over to me and he just goes i i love you and i was like yeah great yeah okay you know it just it does help to be loved yeah it sure does it does in every way and i so i i don't understand withholding from actors i also i know from my own experience like i don't understand what good it does to like jam your idea into somebody. I think like I worked just on a reading with Mike Nichols. Oh, really?

And after one of our rehearsals. Yeah. Like really the only note he gave me, I was playing Marie Curie, the physicist, and he was like, she's feral. I was playing Marie Curie, the physicist, and he was like, she's feral. But it was the best note I've ever gotten in my life because basically what he's saying is, you cannot go too far. Like, anything that that means to you, I've just given you permission to do it. Yeah. What happened to that project? It was a play. Oh, permission to do it. Yeah. And, um,

What happened to that project? It was a play. Oh, it was a play. It was a play, yeah. Um, and it was, uh,

we just, we performed it at, um, Lincoln Center. Yeah. Um, as a reading? As a reading.

Oh. Yeah, it was cool. It was an amazing night, actually. Who else was there? Uh, Liev Schreiber was in it.

Yeah. Bill Camp was in it. Oh, yeah, that guy. Um, Marin. He's like all over right Yeah. Bill Camp was in it. Oh, yeah. That guy. Bill Camp. He's like all over right now, Bill Camp. It's true.

He's one of those guys where it's like, where's this guy been and how is he in everything? I knew him when, I should say. We did. Well, theater cats, theater people know these people. Yeah. We did Homebody Cobble, this amazing Tony Kushner play together twice. Yeah. Here in LA and then also in New York.

So I knew him when I was 23. Wow. So Kushner, that must be a formidable guy to work with. He's amazing. Yeah. I mean, I saw Angels and I saw the musical. I'm trying to think if I saw Homebody. A Carolina change. I loved it. Me too. Where'd it go? Why isn't it done more? I loved it. I think they should do it now. Time's gone by. I listened to that musical sometimes. I thought it was great. I loved it. I think they should do it now. Yeah. The time's gone by. I listen to that musical sometimes. I thought it was great. I loved it. Yeah, he's such a sharp guy. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. I mean, and to make that musical so deep, like it did something that other musicals don't do. I don't see a lot of musicals because I end up crying for no reason, which is not terrible, but I don't see a lot of them. There's a lot of people singing. I get choked up just immediately.

I don't know. It's so funny, yeah. It's weird to sing. It's just this release. It's one of those things where it's like, I don't have the courage. Yeah. To me, singing is so vulnerable. Do you know, I did it.

I sang for one night on Broadway last year, almost a year ago. The Roundabout does a fundraiser, and they did Damn Yankees, like an old-fashioned musical. And they asked me to play Lola. And I was like, I wonder if they ever heard me sing. Because I do sing okay. Yeah, well, that's all you need in a musical. Uh-uh. No.

I think you... But I actually, I have never had more fun on stage in my entire life. It was amazing. Was it scary at first? Well, it was... They did about a week of rehearsal, but I, for two months beforehand, worked. I must have spent $10,000 on singing lessons. I'm not kidding. Oh, to breathe?

Like, how to sing. Yeah. And I worked so much on it. Did it help? Also, it was right when Penny died so I was like kind of like

I missed my a teacher yeah so I went to this woman all the time and I learned so much and then

when it came to the day to do it yeah I remember I felt this switch in my brain where I was like

oh I'm gonna do this just how I do all my acting yeah I'm not I'm not gonna like do it in some brain where I was like, oh, I'm going to do this just how I do all my acting. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not going to like do it in some, not like I was ever going to be like musical me. Yeah. But to try to have to be perfect or to try to have to like hit everything.

And so I was dancing with like, with like beautiful chorus boys. I'm kidding you. And, and, um and and I flipped it in my head I started listening to some like Beyonce and Cardi B

I was like oh she's a sex goddess this woman I'm playing like let me get a little and and also my brother wrote me a text because my brother

really actually is an incredible singer and I actually think my brother actually is like what musicals need what is well tell him to do it he just did Sunday in the Park with George and he was amazing brother actually is like what musicals need. What is, well,

tell him to do it. He just did Sunday in the Park with George and he was amazing. Yeah. But he's a different level of talent than me. And that, in that, in the form. But anyway,

he wrote me this text right before where he said, like, why do we do this? Part of why we do this is for the terror. And I'm like, and can you, what did he say? Like, can you take all that joy? Yeah. And then I remember I was like, okay, either this is going to be literally the most horrible two hours of my life.

It's going to be the same as like holding on by your fingernails to the edge of a cliff. Yeah. Or I'm just going to fucking do it. Yeah. And I did. And it was heaven. Yeah. I was high off that for weeks.

Really? And I was far from perfect. Right. But I was like, I literally daydreamed about it for weeks. It was heaven. That's great. Can you take all that joy? Yeah.

That's a good question in general. I have a joy aversion. That's great. Can you take all that joy? Yeah. That's a good question in general. I have a joy aversion. Really? Yeah, it just like it seems, I feel like there's a vulnerability element to it. Like I can be pretty open and pretty vulnerable in a conversational way and be myself. But I think part of being myself is sort of fending off joy somehow. Well, if you want joy, you have to take the terror. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I think that's what he was saying. Like, hey, I'm terrified. I'm so scared. But I'm putting myself in this position where there's the possibility of great terror and great joy at once. It's not just on stage. But, yeah. But, I mean, a musical is just a vehicle for joy. That's right.

I mean, it's wide open. And terror. Yeah, of course. I mean, right. The scariest thing in the world. Singing. Singing and dancing in front of right. I mean, like, it's wide open. And terror. Yeah, of course. I mean, right. The scariest thing in the world. Singing and dancing in front of people. I mean, come on.

And that's, I think that's true of life, too. I get terrified sometimes, just like I believe we all do. And when you, like, get all tight

and push it away, you don't get the joy. I know. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta not get tight. I mean, you know. And know. I got to knock it tight. I mean, you know.

And then you do. And then you remember. Yeah. And then you're like, I just let a little joy in. Yeah. Because I just start, like, if joy gets in me, I just get, you know, I start crying a little bit. Really? I feel it.

Yeah. Even if it's just happy. I think that's why I have that response to musical. Because I'm, like, stifling this thing. Well, Carolina changed, though, to go back to the Tony Kushner. I remember seeing an early reading of it. Yeah. And this friend of mine who works with Tony Kushner a lot was sitting next to me.

And like early on, there was this line, my father was a clarinet. And then he says, my father played the clarinet. And something about that poetry. Yeah. I just like started sobbing and my friend who'd seen an earlier reading of the play she just like handed me a tissue in this kind of knowing way like get ready this whole musical is gonna make you stop yeah so so you just took this penny kind of like she was always there for you like did you use her on every movie kind of deal after a while

i started using her on every movie at first deal? After a while, I started using her on every movie. At first, no. And then, you know, what happened was... Just to clarify your instincts primarily? I would say there was probably a period

where I didn't even let myself have my instincts. I was like, just tell me how to do it. You know? Just tell me how to do it and I'll write it down. But then, of course,

what's that mean? I still got to do it, you know, in my own way. But when we really went deep, Penny and I, was when her husband was Al Pacino's partner for many years, his teacher, and he was super sick for a long time. And Penny and I were starting to work on The Honorable Woman, which is a miniseries I did, which is eight hours. And I had never worked on something that long before. We were just starting to work on The Honorable Woman, which is a miniseries I did, which is eight hours. And I had never worked on something that long before. We're just starting to work on it, just getting into it. And I call her one day.

She's not there for a time. And I call her house and she says that her husband had just died. And I was like, okay, well, obviously we won't work. And she said, all I want to do is work. All I want to do is work. And so we sort of spoke almost every day for a while working on this eight-hour long piece when her husband had just died. And that's when she and I just like I understood her in a different way. I got my own voice.

And she was working through her morning. Yeah. And that was the big shift for you? For me, I think I was 35. Yeah. And that was the big shift for you? For me, I think I was 35. Yeah. And I felt like that's when I learned how to work. How to work. How to do the work. Yeah.

I learned on that project. And the work since then is way better. Yeah, you can see it. Yeah. You can feel it. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.

Yeah. And it seems like everything's going pretty good for you. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. And it seems like everything's going pretty good for you. Yeah. I feel so grateful lately. Yeah? Yeah. That's nice to be able to feel that. And so this thing that you're writing that you have 20 more minutes to write on, what's the arc of the, what's the timeline on that?

Then you've got to attach somebody, an actress and that kind of stuff. I think that's what I'll do. I'm sure the script will need a little more work and that'll be interesting too. Have you already been thinking about people? I have been thinking about people, which is such an interesting thing, as a fellow actress. You probably know them and you're like, she could do that.

Some of them. And then there's this really interesting thing, which I'm fascinated by, which is this combination of admiration and envy. Right. Like you're going to cast this person and you're not doing it. Well, I would not want to do it. But also like just in general, the people who I most admire, I also, to be totally honest, sometimes feel a little envy towards. Well, I mean, I don't want to say who I'm thinking of for my movie. It would be very flattering for them, you know, like, well, I mean, I don't want to say who I'm thinking of for my movie.

It would be very flattering for them, but no, but like in general, let's say. Well, just the actresses who I think are phenomenal because again. Of your generation. Of my generation and also a little older because the character is, you know, probably should be around 50, maybe late 40s. And I'm 40 for one more day. I turn 41 tomorrow. Yeah. Exciting.

Happy birthday. Thank you. So it's maybe slightly older, but the thing I'm talking about, about not sort of jamming my ideas down someone's throat, but working with an actress who I feel so much respect for that I'm fascinated to see what they'll bring. Yeah. Also comes with it probably a little bit of envy. Sure. Yeah. And also I think probably a little bit of envy. Sure.

Yeah. And also I think like that terror and that joy thing. I mean, to be in the director's seat and to have to sort of like know the other side of it so well. Yeah. And then have to sort of find a way to work with whoever this amazing person you're going to put in it is. But I will say I've shadowed some directors on The Deuce. And I could watch actors acting all day. Yeah?

I mean, there are things I find boring. I don't like watching bad acting without being able to help them or say something interesting to them. But actors, even struggling actors, even actors, because, God, we're struggling all the time. Sure, yeah. Not the most confident bunch. But you know, like you move through something watching someone struggle through something and land somewhere different than they

thought. And I could watch it all day. I love it. I love it. Yeah, every take? Really? You can just... Yeah. Yeah. Who were some of the directors you were following over there? Uta Bresowitz, who is also a DP.

So that was an interesting person to shadow because I think the thing I know least about are lenses. Yeah. Oh, right. Sure. Yeah. That's all. And lighting. I didn't officially shadow Michelle McLaren, but I did sort of unofficially shadow her.

She directed on the first season, the first and the last episode, and I'm fascinated by her and her work. I think she's like a sort of, she was directing these huge television projects at a time when it was really pretty much a closed door for most women. And watching the way she kind of maneuvers with all of that stuff on set was really interesting. And what about, how is it, like, you're close with your brother? Mm-hmm.

And, like, does he, do you guys talk about acting? Yeah. Yeah? We talk about acting. You know, I find. How much, what's the age difference? Three years. I'm three years older.

Uh-huh. And my brother, do we talk about acting? Like after we've seen each other's work. Right. Or even, it's more of like kind of a ESP thing.

Like I was like, I know. I remember seeing him on the street where he was like, I'm just so uninspired thinking I'm not going well and I was like, you need to do Sunday in the Park with George. I know he was thinking about it. I was like, I'm just so uninspired thinking I'm not going well.

And I was like, you need to do Sunday in the Park with George. I know he was thinking about it. I was like, do it. When did that run? How did I miss it? How many months did he do on it? It was short. They only meant for it to be short, but it was last winter.

Is that right? Yeah. I just saw the movie he did with Paul and Zoe. Oh, I saw that. Yeah. I liked it a lot. Yeah, me too. He was great in it. He was great in it.

Yeah. Yeah. I liked it a lot. Yeah, me too. He was great in it. He was great in it. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. He really showed up for work. It's hard to, like those characters where you're expecting kind of something horrible to happen, and they're not really that horrible. Yeah. He just had problems, but he just didn't know what was going to, there was a menace to it that, there was an edge to it.

And he produced it. Yeah. Yeah, his company. Well, good luck with it. Thank you. It's great talking to you. Yeah, great talking to you too. You feel good?

Yeah. All right. Okay. So that was great. I love talking to her. Go watch The Kindergarten Teacher. Watch The Deuce. Kindergarten Teacher. Watch The Deuce. The Kindergarten Teacher is on Netflix.

I think The Deuce is on whatever cable it's on. HBO, is it? And Boulder, Colorado. Tickets go on sale for my March 24th show tomorrow. The link is at WTFpod.com. Okay? All right. I'll play a little guitar.

Okay? All right. I'll play a little guitar. You might hear that I've been listening to too much Beastie Boys. Thank you. Boomer lives! Cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. cannabis store and a cast creative. It's a night for the whole family.

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