WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 981 - Reinaldo Marcus Green

Episode Date: December 31, 2018

Before directing his first feature film, Reinaldo Marcus Green's life could have gone down multiple paths. There was baseball in his teen years, then teaching elementary school students, then going to work on Wall Street, then helping his brother and other filmmakers with their movies. But it was a short film of his own made with a cop friend that led to an impassioned discussion between the two of them, which provided the impetus to make Monsters and Men. Reinaldo takes Marc down all of these connected routes ending with a film that asks difficult questions and doesn't provide easy answers. This episode is sponsored by TurboTax Live and the New York Times Crossword App. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gate! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. What's going on? How's everybody doing? Tonight is New Year's Eve.

Don't die. Happy New Year. Don't die in a car. Don't die from a drug overdose. Don't die from a drug overdose. Don't die from alcohol poisoning. Don't die because you're letting somebody with any of those drive or talk you into anything. Maybe I've harped on this long enough. Just don't die and be present for the first of the new year.

What are your resolutions? Jesus, good question, right? Right? Are they even necessary? But I think I've come upon, so maybe I'll move towards that as we have this conversation. Today on the show is a film director, Ronaldo Marcus Green. His movie, Monsters and Men, is available on Blu-ray, DVD, and digital on January 8th. It's a great movie. I enjoyed it. We

talked a lot about how it evolved out of a short he made about a traffic stop. It takes place in New York, and it's a very provocative, charged movie. I loved it, actually. I love the movie, so you should check it out, and you can listen to me talk to him shortly. But let me focus here. Let me try to focus. I'm still in New Mexico. There was a blizzard here and it had been a long time since I'd risen to the challenges of driving in a blizzard. But thankfully, and I give myself credit for this, I rented a Nissan Armada. This is like driving a fucking military vehicle.

It's like driving a tank. I didn't even know that's what I was going to rent. I thought I was going to get a Jeep because I thought it might snow, but I had an Armada. This is a heavy car. So when we left Albuquerque, it was slightly snowing. And then by the time we hit I-25, they had closed the fucking highway down because I don't know what it is.

I don't know if I mean, snow happens here, but it's not like the East Coast where you're buried under six feet at least a month out of the winter season. And there is snow plows everywhere. But the entire highway was shut down. There's really no other way to go. Cars are just sliding everywhere. You could just see what happens as brakes locking up cars in ditches on the side of the road, cars at the wrong angle. And we had to sort of navigate through the Cochiti-Pueblo area up and around through a lot of snow going very slowly. And I guess here's the point in terms of relationship progress.

I guess here's the point in terms of relationship progress. I did not slam on the brakes and get stuck in a ditch and open the door slowly because I was mad that I was being told how to drive. And I think that's a great testament to any relationship. If you can drive in a blizzard where the conditions are rough and you don't let rage overcome you to the point where you slam on your brakes for no reason, roll the automobile, get out and say something like, why can't you just shut up? So that didn't happen. So that's progress. There was no car accidents and only just minor moments of aggravation about the proximity, mostly about driving. How many relationships end because of cars?

That's what I want to know. Does anyone got statistics on that? So we survived the blizzard and then eventually we were holed up here where we are. Fortunately, it was a luxury hotel. There was no risk of freezing to death or exposure or frostbite, just mild discomfort that the thermostat didn't go above 75. And Sarah slept with a hat. And I refused to do that. I refused to be paying the price I was paying at the hotel I was staying at and sleeping a hat. And she refused to let me call the front desk at 1130 at night because I was slightly uncomfortable with the 74 degrees

in the room, which when the heat adjusted, went down to probably 68. Oh, oh, that's, oh, I forgot to mention that we went without Wi-Fi for, I think, almost 24 hours, and the cell phone service wasn't that good. And man, I'll tell you, you really get in touch with who you are when you can't pick up a thing or turn on a thing and fill your brain with garbage or distract yourself. Really got connected. I mean, is that a therapy? Of course it is. But that's part of my New Year's resolution. But we're not getting to that yet.

So let's get into uh into some stuff here into movies and things i've taken in and in the last week or so i somehow or another this is before i left for vacation i was watching tv and uh i like to flip around and i found that uh eric clapton the eric clapton doc now i know some of you like okay i'm gonna have to cop to something here uh the documentary is called eric clapton a life in 12 bars now you've heard me talk on this show that you know i'm not an eric clapton guy that i'm a peter green guy that you know you can draw lines you can make you can have favorite blues guitar players and what have you but i have always said that i loved clapton when he was with John Mayall's Blues Bakers, and I like Cream except for the lyrics.

And after that, I go in and out of Clapton. It doesn't resonate with me because I felt like he was really kicking on all cylinders when he was a very young man. And then after Derek and the Dominoes, I'm kind of in and out, and I'm a little bored. That's just that. I've said that publicly. I don't mind saying that. But I knew nothing about Eric Clapton.

And should or does that make a difference? It does, actually. This documentary, Eric Clapton, A Life in 12 Bars, was so profound and moving, and I knew nothing about that guy. Nothing about the upbringing he had, nothing about the depth and length of his drug addiction. The things I knew were he was sort of a savant blues guitar player. He had an amazing career, both with Mayall, with Cream, and then a solo career. I know that his son tragically died. I knew he had a substance

abuse problem. But the journey of him finding out about his family, I don't want to do spoilers because you should see it because the whole thing is so moving, and the depth of his emotional and psychological trauma and pain and how he translated that into those early, especially those early records that are just fucking brain bending. The pure blues stuff was deep shit, and you really get a sense of where that comes from.

And by and large, did I just use that phrase? By and large, the thing that's amazing about the film is that it's really a recovery movie. And all the records that I'm in and out with or don't really necessarily resonate with me or I think they're not as deep or as cutting and as fucking moving as those early records up through Layla. Is that he in the documentary, he doesn't he gives them short shrift because he looks at most of them as the records he made when he was shit faced. I had no sense of the depth of heartbreak, both in his immediate life and in his past life.

I mean, just, what can I say? I am sorry that I have seemingly dismissed some of Eric Clapton's work, or that I judge him as an older man in a way that was insensitive to how he got to where he is and the struggle that he had. And, uh, and also go see this fucking movie, go see it, go see it on your couch, take a little time and go watch it on Showtime. Why am I, I'm not getting paid for this plug, but if you're a blues guy, um, it's like, it's essential. And

if you're a recovery person or you're struggling, you should watch it. I mean, it's like, it's essential. And if you're a recovery person or you're struggling, you should watch it. I mean, it's really something. That said, okay, there, I did that. I did that plug. Now let's get into the screeners. Saw Green Book. It was okay. It's pretty good. Kind of knew where it was going. Some great performances. Vice. I enjoyed it. A lot of people don't like it. Maybe Adam McKay is a little heavy-handed sometimes, but I thought the acting was great and the information was great, and I enjoyed the movie. Beautiful boy. For me, a little redundant. It takes a while to realize that the movie is really about the father and not the son, and it does show the horrible redundancy and hopelessness of drug addiction. But for me, as a guy in recovery,

I was like, oh man, is this kid gonna get it or is he not gonna get it? I watched the middle part for about 15 minutes of Mary Queen of Scots. Seems good, don't feel like I need to revisit. Bohemian Rhapsody, we watched that. Rami Malek did a great job. The guys in the band did a great job.

The music was great. They really got into his life. But it's hard to make a biopic about somebody in your memory and kind of move through it. But I thought it was good. I thought it was satisfying. I enjoyed it. Watched Boy Erased last night. I thought it was pretty great.

I enjoyed the movie. That Hedges kid, is that his name, Hedges? Someone please tell me when I became my father. Yeah, please let me know when that's fully taken place. Lucas Hedges did a great job in that. I enjoyed the movie. It's good. It's satisfying.

On the basis of sex. Enjoyed it. Again, a biopic of a very specific time of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Historically good information there. There's a lot of finessing with biopics in order to make the characters kind of, it was good. It was good. And it was an important movie, I think, in terms of history. I didn't know about it, which is going to be a theme in my life in terms of what I'm talking about now. What about history? Huh? What about it? Watch the first 15 minutes of A Star is Born. And got to say, I get uh watch the favorite got to watch it again because i'm going to interview that

guy now what movie had the most impact on me what did i want to tell you about well i'll tell you i'll tell you honestly and this has something to do with where my head is at we went to the museum of indian arts and culture here in santa fe and there a, there's a documentary playing in there in the pottery exhibit, part of the, part of the history of the area. And when I was growing up here in New Mexico, pottery and Indian jewelry was sort of a big deal. And I've, I've begun to wear some of it again. I'm wearing a turquoise ring. I got Sarah a turquoise bracelet. We both seemed to buy some pieces when we're here, but we were in the gift shop of one of the museums. They had one of these black pots, these Pueblo black pottery.

And I remember from when I was a kid, Maria, her name was very famous for making these. Her name is Maria Martinez. And I brought that up to Sarah in the gift shop. And then we walk into this museum. There's a documentary. It's about 25 minutes long called Maria Martinez, Indian Pottery of the San Ildefonso Pueblo. Now, this movie blew me away. It's not in contention for Oscars, but it did something in my brain. There's certain things I watch, something about practice.

And it's weird because pottery is sort of becoming a recurring theme on my podcast from now or another. But the process of making these traditional Pueblo style, this very specific black pottery, it requires, they go out, she goes out with her son who's also a potter and they kind of go out to the mesa. They find the clay dirt they need and then they find the blue sand they have to mix it with. Then she goes back and mixes it. Then she starts to craft the pot through coils. Then she smooths it.

Then she shapes it. Then it dries. And then she puts silt on it from another slip and then that dries. And then she burnishes it with a, I think it was a polished rock. So it's shiny. And then they make a hole and burnishes it with a, I think it was a polished rock. So it's shiny. And then they, they make a hole and they put a steel grate in, they lay all the pots on

it. They put wood underneath the grate and then they cover it with, um, metal. So the smoke and the heat stays in. And then they surround that with giant petrified cow chips and they bake it. And then they dump a bunch of, of, uh, broken down horse manure on top of it to put it out, and they kind of, you know, hours, maybe a day or two. This whole process was so organic and so sort of strangely connected and authentic and inspiring, and just to see the pots come out so beautifully shiny and perfect and just so connected to the earth and connected to tradition and

connected to taking the time to make things and then, you know, connected to an entire way of being somehow made me, it just was inspirational and made me want to get off Twitter. Is that the message I was supposed to get? And that comes to the resolutions. What are the resolutions? I don't know, man. I don't know about you, but right now it's very hard. In terms of information we're getting, we know we're in a cultural fucking apocalypse on so many levels. We know we've lost almost historical context entirely. We've lost any sense of history.

We've lost any sense of the depth of history, the depth of the players in history or how to put them into perspective. We've lost some semblance of what is true and what isn't true. And it's fucking with our brains. And we've lost any sort of sense of ungotchied nuance that's my word that's my phrasing where there are nuances that that that should be portals into what make people

beautiful and amazing and complicated as opposed to just you know nuances that are exploited for tabloid business we've just lost touch with all that and i sort of want to get back in touch with it in this year if i could i want to try to you know maybe pull myself i'm definitely i don't do facebook at all which makes me i don't know what so that's going i think i'm going to consolidate my twitter stuff so it's just promotional i'm going to probably pull out of instagram and try to free up that part of the brain and try to stay off the news app on my phone and figure out who I am in the world and what did I come from and how is it defining and important and what is life supposed to be comprised of as we move through it. It's a little slower than our phones would let us to believe.

Yeah, as we move through it. It's a little slower than our phones would let us to believe. Life is a little slower than our phones lead us to believe in the immediate surrounding. I want to appreciate the people in my life and try to take care of myself. Try to, you know, do the right thing if possible. Always as much as I can. All right. Yeah, I'm going to get off nicotine lozenges too.

I'm going to. I swear to God. I swear to God I can. All right, yeah, I'm going to get off nicotine lozenges too. I'm going to. I swear to God. I swear to God I am. So, Happy New Year and go look at that Maria Martinez documentary. You can find it online. I think it's like,

I just dug it up. They had it at the museum but then I found it in. It's called Maria Martinez Indian Pottery of San Ildefonso. It's from 1972 go watch that eric clapton documentary for me that coming in on the close of the year these were the most inspirational things that i took into my head and also uh my relationship is always uh exciting and uh you know making me better, I think. Huh? Oh, yeah.

Just keep trying to be as straight with yourself as you can and treat other people well. Now, let's go to my conversation. This took place a little while ago. We couldn't get it up in time for the release of the movie, but it's coming out on Blu-ray, DVD, and digital on January 8th. The film is Monsters and Men. And this is me talking with Rinaldo Marcus Green, the director and writer of that film. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

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Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

You know, the last time I talked to you, we were in New York and we talked for a little while and i watched the short that you made stop and then now i watched the movie and it's how much because in stop that that film in in a basically almost exactly what happens in that nine minute film is a you know a couple of scenes in in the in the feature so when you make in the when you're making the nine minute film were you thinking ahead of the feature, or is this something you built around it later, or how'd that happen? Yeah, not at all. So that little nine-minute short that you saw,

I made for 500 bucks as part of NYU. In the short, I cast a real New York City police officer. So he's a friend of mine. We grew up together in Staten Island. Fast forward, we get that short film. Wait, you grew up in Staten Island? I grew up in Staten Island, New York. Oh, maybe we should go all the way back then,

because I've done nothing but say grew up in Staten Island? I grew up in Staten Island, New York. Oh, maybe we should go all the way back there, because I've done nothing but say shitty things about Staten Island, and I want to find some light there. I'm trying to find the light. We're still working on it. I've moved off the island. I'm happy to say I got off the island. Right. Respect for growing up there.

Yeah, definitely. No desire to move. I know a few guys Pete Davidson grew up on Staten Island right? Eddie Pepitone a few guys but you know I never hear great stuff there's horrible stuff and there's

a lot of people that do good work there I mean the cities all the cops were there and like a lot of the firemen cops, firemen, construction workers and then there's mafia guys and then there's just- Oh, there's definitely mafia guys. I went to school with the Gambinis, the Lucchesis. They're all out there?

All. All out there. At least they were. Huh. So you got a- Now they've moved to Jersey. When you get older, you move to Jersey. You make a few bucks.

You move to Jersey. You can run the city from Jersey. Exactly. I learned that in The Sopranos. So you have a twin brother? Not a twin brother? Not a twin. He's an older brother. He's three and a half years older. That's Rashad?

Rashad Ernesto Green. Yep. And you're Ronaldo Marcus Green? Yep. He got the African first name. I got the Latino first name. And what's the breakdown of your folks? My mother's Puerto Rican and my father's African American. Okay. So now there's just two of you? This is just the two of us. And you're on Staten Island growing up?

Growing up on Staten Island, but just my father, though. We grew up in a single parent household with my dad. Why is your dad on Staten Island? So at the time, Staten Island had very good public schools. Okay. So it was the way that we can afford a good education. So that's what he was looking out for? He was looking out for us. He was working for the department of investigation downtown manhattan maiden lane

so it was a 20 minute commute with no traffic and especially because he had a badge and a shield yeah you know you can go in that hov lane and you know and kind of speed into work what's it that's a little uh broad the department of investigation what what were his uh what was his uh focus well he he's an attorney by trade yeah but he would work with like Marshall's Bureau and do sort of white collar crime. So he got a lot of people money laundering. But it was funny. We'd go on stakeouts with our dad and he'd have this huge Nikon camera.

Really? I don't know how legal the stuff he was doing. Is he retired? Sadly, he's passed away. I'm sorry. Well, then we can talk openly about his small transgressions yeah yeah no he's kids i think he was like oh it's we're even more undercover did you lose a lens dude i probably did but hopefully it's still in my case somewhere are those prescription they are which would be really

sad if i lost them god damn let's hope that it's not but maybe in the car might be in the car might be in the house i just noticed it and i was like, is he walking around with the, was he doing a thing with the one lens? I know. That would be strange, but hopefully it's somewhere in the car. We'll find out. You know, it's tricky with those aviators because the frames are very thin. And if you have a prescription, did they tell you that?

They didn't. I got these in London. Oh. And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I remember when I was a kid, I had those-ban aviators i wanted to get a prescription and they told me that and it's not quite you know if you got a little weight on your prescription they might hold in there yeah i can't see a thing i'm well where could they be they got to be in the car right it's we only took one road to get to this place so yeah so if you had them did you have them on in the car i did

have them on in the car and i didn't you know in the car. Oh, you were going to find him. And I was seeing perfectly fine, so I think I'm good. Okay, yeah. You would have noticed if there was a lens missing. You're a director, for God's sake. I would have noticed. All right, so your dad's taking you and your brother on stakeouts. Yep. Taking pictures.

But no, he's not, you know. He's not in the line of fire or anything like that. Again, these aren't hard criminals. He's not going out bust. Yeah, we weren't. Getting doors and going, these are my kids. Be nice. He had guys that were putting up storefronts and then doing.

Probably your neighbors in Staten Island. Sadly enough, probably. He was good. He loved what he did. He really enjoyed being an investigator. Yeah. But he was looking out for you. He had a he did. He really enjoyed, you know, being an investigator and that kind of thing. But he was looking out for you.

He had a good gig and, you know, he moved someplace to get everybody good education. Yeah. I mean, listen, it was a city job. Never made, you know, enough money to, you know, we all had to pay for ourselves to get through school and all that. But he put us in a position to succeed. Well, I think that like, because that relationship in the film with the baseball player, what was his name? Zyrek.

He played by Kelvin Harrison Jr. The kid's name is Zyrek. Yeah. Like that relationship with the father is sort of like an important relationship. in a neighborhood that is constantly you know uh monitored and and you know cops are imposing and uh and transgress you know morally dubious in terms of how they treat the african-american community but that father he worked hard his whole life and he kept his nose clean it seems and you know he he knows what trouble is but he's not gonna let his kid you know fall into that exactly exactly and i think my father was probably one of those guys.

Right. Probably on the front lines doing that thing, listening to protest music, 60s, 70s, 80s, all of that. We grew up with that in our house. You did. But then it's like he keeping us, not to say, of course, informed. He would tell us about those things, but that whole going to marches and stuff well yeah i thought that riff that that guy did he said like you know you know this is what's happening this is what we you know are living with and living in and there there's no

end in sight per se and it's it's nice to be aware but uh i'm trying to get you the fuck out of here yeah yeah it's true it's it's uh it's the current climate man. Yeah, it's true. It's the current climate, man. Yeah, but I think it was sort of always like that. I imagine that there was sort of, of your father's generation, maybe a little more unity. But I don't know. I'm projecting as a dumb white guy.

It seems like that there is a lot of organized resistance within the community. And I think that back then, maybe you felt like you had a little more support, I would think, from the community at large. Now it seems like everybody's doing their own thing. Well, I just think social media has changed the way we communicate.

And you can reach way more. Yeah, because you can send a tweet and reach 50 million people or whatever it is right where where then it's like well if i'm going out and i'm putting my my body at risk you know literally it was a different thing when you're a soldier on the front lines of a protest versus like okay cool i'm in this tower up here and i can i can send a tweet or i can right you know i'm not but at the same time you're you're accessing way more people than you could so information is we're just in a different time.

Right, but it also enables people to draw lines from where they sit. So you can tweet, you can do whatever, but you can also like, well, I'm not going to buy that point of view because I got my own point of view over here. And these are my people and those are them. that when people do hit the streets and they stay in it, that the spectacle of it, of the resistance or of the confrontation, delivers the message in a visceral and human way that does have an impact. But the other side is sort of like, look at them. They're fucking out of their minds. So those people also have means of communication. A hundred percent.

But I thought that was like an amazing balance in the film because I didn't really know where it was going to go because your brain, when you watch a movie, it's beautifully shot, but you watch a movie and a story, you know, you kind of, you know, you want the cop to act a certain way. You know, you don't know what's going to happen

with the baseball player. And it's like, is this all going to turn to shit? Or how, you know, how do we find hope through this? And this and you know without it being pithy and and overwrought but it was a i thought you did a good balance oh thank you so much and not everyone's a good guy but they're not terrible yeah we all have monsters and men in us that was that was the idea you know that we're all sort of have confronted we all have good and bad you have all have choices you all have we we as individuals have choices to make.

Well, when you were coming up, you know, you and your brother, so you, you know, you had this father who was, was he strict? He was pretty strict.

I mean, like, very strict. And he was a baseball fanatic. Like, how the father in the film speaks to his kids, like everything

was a baseball analogy. Oh, yeah? So whether it was girls at home, you know, like he was baseball, baseball, baseball. Watched 162 games a year. Diehard Mets fan. We'd watch reruns, tape at night. I mean, if I struck out in a game looking like we'd have to come back home, take 200

swings, like my dad was intense. Oh, really? It's like the great Santini. He was like Serena and Venus's father. Yeah. He was raising major leaguers. Like in his mind, he was going to have and Venus's father. He was raising major leaguers. In his mind, he was going to have a major league side. Were either of you gifted in that way?

So I took it pretty far. I played college baseball. I had two major league tryouts. That was as far as I got, but I didn't make it. But I guess the big question is, even in the film, with that character, it's like, did you like it? I think when you're a kid, you like the things you're good at you know or you know you think that there's a chance so you know when i stop being good at video games i stop liking them you know

and there's no major league video game yeah so with baseball i was i was i was good and i played a pretty high level our our high school you know Richmond High School, we went to the city championship, played in Yankee Stadium. We were on a very, very competitive field, and it was good. What position? In high school, I was a hitter and a catcher, and then I was converted into a pitcher in college. Oh, yeah? Never touched a bat again.

Really? Yeah. He had a good arm? I had a pretty good arm. Control was the one thing, but I became a closer in college. A little erratic. A little erratic, you know. Walked a couple guys going ouch.

Exactly, and then I'd strike out the side. I'd walk three and then strike out three. Hence why I'm making films and not in the major leagues now. But it was a longer journey to get to films, as I remember from our first conversation. Your brother wasn't playing ball? Well, he played ball until college and then studies took over and then he went to drama school. In college, he went to Dartmouth and then started learning Shakespeare and then he became

an actor. Yeah. So he acted for all of Dartmouth, went to NYU, did the MFA in acting, and then went back to NYU and did the MFA in film. With you? So he was just grinding. No, he did it before you. Yeah, before me, before me. So how's the old man?

So, like, you know, how bad was it? I mean, in terms of, like, okay, so you did 200 swings, you know, if you fucked up in the Little League game. But did it wear on you? I mean, was it like it wasn't aggressive? It was just you just felt bad? You felt like you had to be better? No, he was, I mean, my dad was intense, man.

He was an intense guy. There were moments where, you know, I'm sure my brother and I were both brought to tears. Oh, right. About a game. Yeah, but it was life to him. For him, baseball was how, it was life. I mean, I think he literally like i i say this uh

truthfully i think if he was a yankee fan he'd still be alive because they won more you know but growing up a mets fan and the heartache you know but it's just so tough and and you would see him you think that's what killed him it helped it definitely helped and i love them you know we're still fans today and you know but but i. But it definitely didn't help his longevity. Really? I don't think so. Did he smoke? He didn't smoke.

Wasn't a drinker, really. It was the Mets. It was the Mets that I think. Fucking Mets killed your dad. We still love them, though. We still root for them. You got to, man. Do you watch all the games?

Are you still locked in? Well, there was a point after those Major league tryouts where I didn't make it. I just kind of shut down. How could you not? I don't even think I watched baseball for about five years. And then when I became a dad four years ago, I started picking up the game again. I had lost my father right before then and realized the relationship I had with my dad was this game. Was this game.

And how am I going to communicate to my kid? And of course, the first thing I'm doing is looking for a baseball. He has no idea. I don't think my kid has any athletic ability yet at four, but somehow I'm waiting for him to put the ball in front of him and see if he's going to reach for the ball or reach for the thing. That's interesting. And so I just started watching.

I bought the MLB app and now I'm... You're in. I still remained a Mets fan and would still, you know, look, but I wouldn't watch, you know, it was more like, uh, I'd read the trades, but not, not watch the game. It's interesting though, because given, you know, this sort of, um, you know, your, your, your trajectory and your kind of focus and your ability to get things done that you have to look at your childhood in respect to your father and realize that he did a good job parenting. And then if you really isolate, like, well, it was all baseball,

it would seem natural, not just nostalgic, to be like, this is how you parent. I need to get this kid a glove and a ball as soon as possible. It's just crazy how it all comes back and all the lessons that he taught us. And now all of a sudden I'm talking situational baseball with my four-year-old. Did he teach you how to lose? Yeah, absolutely. You know, if we, like, threw a glove or a bat or something like that,

I mean, my dad would just go ballistic. He was never allowed to show that. And that's the beautiful thing about baseball. There's 160 to do games. So when you lose, you come back tomorrow. But I think that to me, like, a guy that like you know was you know i'm fairly athletic but i i was never you know taught i was in the little league but i never really stuck with teams or anything and i've talked about it before but i think the most important thing you you got to teach is is how

to lose i mean on some level that seems to be the big life lesson is that you know there are more games you know it's not the end of the world and and uh you know you get up and do it again that the competition is is what is the exciting part of it yeah but how you lose was more important to my dad it was like it wasn't that we lost he doesn't want you to lose he doesn't want you so for him if i struck out and i was looking i left runners on base and I didn't attempt to swing. And so that was the disrespect. It was like you're letting your teammates down because you didn't even bother to swing. Right.

You know, you struck out looking at a ball that was too close to the strike zone and he would just lose it because it was like it was about the team. You let those guys down. I don't care if you struck out. Right. But if you struck out looking, it was about the team. You let those guys down. I don't care if you struck out. Right. But if you struck out looking, that's, that's. That was it. That was it.

So, so, you know, we didn't have too many strikeout, you know, strikeout lookings after those cuts in the living room. But, but, but yeah, no, he, he was intense, man. But he, you know. That's an interesting lesson in itself. He was a dad raising two boys on his own, you know. Yeah. That's an interesting lesson in itself that, you know, like, what are you expecting?

You know what I mean? Yeah. You got to take a shot. Got it. You know, you know? Yeah, that's an interesting lesson in itself that, you know, like, what are you expecting? You know what I mean? You gotta take a shot. You know what I mean? You might walk some of the time. Yeah, you might get hit by a bitch. You know, you can do anything. Stick the bat out. Well, where was your mom?

My mom, she was a teacher in Jersey and my parents got divorced when I was eight, you know, but I think they, it was rare that a father was raising the two boys, but I think my mom, you my mom recognized that there were some limitations and she wanted us to have a father. And what, she was going through her own thing? She was going through her own thing. Again, no resentment there.

She just needed to take care of herself, heal. She's in my life now. Yeah. She's actually ended up living with my mom in college. You did. I went to school in Jersey, very close to where she was. And yeah, ended up moving in with my mom, which I wrote a feature comedy based on

because I didn't grow up with my mom. And here it is, this Puerto Rican from the South Bronx is living in Jersey. Yeah. And she's still as neurotic as she was back then. And so she's locking the doors

and there's like chains in there. And it's like, what's going on? Really? We're not in the South Bronx anymore. We're like in a nice, you know. So she grew up when it was falling apart. Oh, yeah, no.

She grew up poor in a one-bedroom tenement with eight brothers and sisters. Oh, my God. I mean, it was like fish food in there. Just a life of PTSD. Yeah, basically. And she's still, she doesn't take the train. She can't go underground. Certain things that she just doesn't do.

Yeah. So I understand, you know, she had a very, very rough upbringing. Well, the South Bronx was always sort of the kind of example of what a burned out. Bronx is burning. Yeah. Boogie down Bronx. I remember that when I was a kid. Like Fort Apache, too, right?

Oh, my God. What is it like there now? I mean, listen. Have you been up there? I have been up there. And the real estate is crazy. I mean, yeah. Well, it's not.

You know, listen, there's still pockets. Yeah, right. But gentrification has taken over in the Bronx, especially the waterfront. And, you know, listen, 10 years, you got some money. I think the Bronx is where you should put it. I think so. I mean, I'm no realtor. I'm kind of looking at, like, what's going to happen to Detroit?

How does the whole city go under? It's like it's insane. Like, you know, like when I heard that they looking at, like, what's going to happen to Detroit? How does a whole city go under? It's like, it's insane. Like, you know, like, when I heard that they were selling houses for $10, like, is it really that it's that hopeless? There's no coming back? And artists getting in there and buying these houses and doing this stuff. So, you know, I've never been to Detroit, but I'd love to see it and see... I haven't either.

I haven't been downtown. So you didn't, but filmmaking was not... I mean, this is relatively... How old are you i'm 36 but it wasn't the first thing you not at all you you finished i guess you didn't get on the mets i didn't get on the mets i got we went where'd you go to college i went to fairly dickinson university fairly dickinson i know the name of fairly dickinson that's a good school right yeah it's a it's a it's a how do you call it i don't know why i know it because my dad's from jersey i'm like

a business school it's in oh that's what it is so it's close to the city a lot it's a, how do you call it? I don't know why I know it. Cause my dad's from Jersey. I'm like. It's a good business school. Oh, that's what it is. So it's close to the city. It's in Jersey? It's in Jersey, in Chatham, sorry, in Madison, New Jersey. Very close to Chatham. And you go all four years? I went all five years.

I did my master's in education there. So you were going to be a teacher? I was going to be, I was a teacher. I became a teacher. So you leave Fairleigh Dickinson. I leave Fairleigh Dickinson. And you teach in what? I become a teacher.

Where? I taught in Bedminster. Bedminster Township, which is like where Jackie Onassis has a house out there. I mean, it's very wealthy. Tough gig, huh? No, it was great. No, I'm kidding. No, but it was tough because I was the only black person in like the town.

Like forget the district. It was like, what? And then here I am. I had long hair at the time. Sort of looked like lenny kravitz a few you know when i was young i had a little lenny thing going on and so it was just like here's this kid with long hair like how did i wind up in this in this district yeah but uh you know i did i did my thing and i loved it i was teaching kindergarten through fifth grade it was a it was a gift and a talented program oh so that's nice you're dealing with smart young kids yeah yeah pretty much but no you're really dealing with their parents uh-huh

and uh and that could be intense so you have to do like presentations first it's not like where you were where i went to school uh-huh you know you have it's a different level of parent teacher communication oh yeah so like what like parents you know are very involved well they already know they're gifted so they now they want them to be geniuses all the way through. 100%. Right. So they're like, what are you doing with my genius? What are you doing with my genius?

Is he challenged enough? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Is he, you know, like, is he doing what he's supposed to do, the genius? Of course. And then when you have someone that looks like me, you know, you're apprehensive. You know, you know. The parent is.

The parent. What's the black man doing with my genius? So, yes, to put it bluntly, you know, no, I mean, listen, you had, you had, listen, it was a balance between the, of course, there's some parents that would, that completely felt that. I don't know if that's just something you grow up with as a black man, a Puerto Rican man. I don't know.

I, I, I always feel it. Well, yeah, no, I mean I mean, I think it's very hard for white people to effectively empathize with the experience of just being in the skin. Yeah, just being in the skin. It's like, oh, yeah.

Even if it's just like a little bit of a longer look. It's like, oh, yeah, it's great. You know, it's like, but it was like, I don't know, four seconds longer than it should be.

So now I feel a little awkward because you're staring. So it's just like little awkward cause you're staring or it's just, it's just like little things. Why are you running? Well, you know, you're just, why are you crossing the street?

It's just strange, strange things. Well, yeah, but you can't, you're never, you're never free from the consciousness of it. No.

Yeah. Um, so how long the teaching last? It lasted about two years. I was dating a girl, you know, I had a girlfriend at the time. His father worked on Wall Street.

We were getting serious in a relationship. I had an undergraduate student loan that I was trying to pay off, and I thought that was a lot. That was 40. Little did I know I was going to end up getting into over 300 with film school. So I ended up moving to Wall Street, and I became a director of educational programs for AIG. So is that something?

Okay, so you do your time at the fancy school, what, for a year or two? I did the, yeah, I did two years. It was a great gig. I had every intention. I wanted to be a principal and a superintendent. That was my career path. That was what I wanted to do. What was it about education?

Was it the thrill of young minds? I don't know what it is i just i love kids i thought i you know uh i really like being in front of the classroom putting on the the teacher show putting on the teacher show was fun you know making things interesting exciting but somehow it's like you know you're kind of telling stories yeah you know sure you're storytelling doing that i guess there's nothing more rewarding than seeing, you know, making children understand something that they didn't know before.

A hundred percent. Right. And I ended up doing that even after film school. You know, I taught at NYU. I'm still an adjunct professor there. And I, you know, I try anytime I get an opportunity. I guess I can't, I'll do it for free. Like it's not even something you have

to pay me that's like a passion yeah but at the same time I need to earn a living and so that question of like can I sustain can teaching sustain me yeah maybe you know maybe right but but that moment though where you blow a mind where they're just like what like I you know because teachers are the ones I mean you got parents, and that can go either way, but you're always going to have in your life a couple of teachers that changed the whole fucking thing. The course of everything. You're like, you know what?

I'm never going to do that again. Yeah, or like, I never thought of that. Yeah, yeah. And now I'm thinking about it all the time. Yeah, that's true. Do you have teachers in your past? Yeah, I mean, there's been a handful. There's been a handful of teachers along the way handful of teachers, you know, along the way.

Different stages, you know, creative writing. Yeah, right. I remember the guy in high school, Dr. Hayes, who, you know, had us write poetry, and he was this animated weird little man. And, you know, I was in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and, you know, he told me to write some real shit, and I wrote some real shit. And the whole class was like, what the fuck? But he was like great yeah and i'm like okay it's not going to help me in the hallway dude yeah why'd you get me here but it did change my mind yeah my life i wasn't i wasn't the best student growing up

to be honest with you i am my parents left i was a jock guy but i think i was just distracted i had i had add before it was classified oh yeah you know so thank god because i didn't get the medicine you know i just i just was self-healed yeah you know and uh you know i think i think no because i think had i been in that wave of like add and medicating kids like yeah absolutely like all if you go back to my like report cards it was like ray can't raise a good kid yeah can't sit still for more than five minutes can't sit still for more than five minutes. Can't sit still for more than five minutes. And, like, my dad had a tough time. I mean, I can't imagine. Like, I don't know if my brain was just somewhere.

Well, I mean, like, I don't know what happens. You know, like, my parents didn't split up until I was in my 30s. But it seems that, you know, when one of them goes, something happens. You know, there's something ungrounded. There's something angry. There's some, like, rudder that's loose for a while. Right? But, yeah, I mean, how long did you not have a relationship with your mom i mean you know it was it was just a distant relationship you know what what she was in time weekly visits became bi-weekly visits became bi-weekly became try you know it just yeah but she wasn't like there wasn't touch

of course i could call my mom whenever she was always open love but once especially once once middle school and high school once we became so yeah once i once sports took over she wasn't trying to be on the baseball diamond baseball was probably what split up their relationship so and now baseball is being used man no but somehow you know the mets ruined their marriage killed your dad. No, this feels like anti-Met. I'm like the biggest Met fan. I love the Mets. No, I know.

But no, no, but it's true. But there are just, I think baseball and that, I think she just didn't want to really deal with that. And we were on the field. I mean, there were times where I was on three leagues at the same time. We played the team. Right. And then we'd play in the outer league.

And we were on teams. And then the all-star team and then the traveling baseball i mean it wasn't it was madness i was i was on the field all the time and that was your dad's trip that was my dad's thing yeah you know what you're gonna make a i think there's a baseball movie in your future i i'm i'm working on it right now of course you are. You have to. And you're dedicated to your old man. Yeah, he was a good guy, man. He meant well. But so, all right, so you go from teaching to this Wall Street gig.

Now, is that a job that you created for yourself or it was something that they had? Well, it was, to be honest, it was a position that was being newly created. It was working out of the diversity department at AIG. And, of course, AIG, insurance company, diversity was a hot button thing at the time. And of course, AIG is an insurance company. Diversity was a hot button thing at the time. And all these insurance companies- Got to mix it up. Got to have a lot of different people. Got to have a lot of different people.

So yeah, no, but it's true. Sadly, a lot of it's window dressing. Of course, you have real people that are doing real work. But a lot of it is just, hey, we're doing this for the company. But we just really need to say we're doing something. We're not actually caring about the difference in what we're doing. So I wound up doing that. When the crash hit, they were getting rid of people.

And, of course, the first thing they do is blame, you know. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, diversity was what it was that brought down the financial crash. So somehow I was able to navigate within the AIG, and I ended I ended up getting another job, not getting let go. That's because you were connected through the woman? Well, at that point, we had broken up. Her old man wasn't helping you? He got let go.

He got let go. Oh, really? He was top, top, top, top dog. He had to be thrown under the bus. Let's just say he was removed yeah from from his post and you break up with her we break up it didn't just didn't work out and you're still in and i'm still in yeah wall street i'm still on wall street i pay off my student loans but i'm young you know i didn't grow up with money so what are you doing the first thing you do

when you when you see like the light of day is you buy a car you know i bought a car you know i went to the mercedes dealership and i'm i'm earning a living yeah i'm paying for my own apartment so you paid off your loans you got a mercedes you're paying for mercedes living the life i'm living the life but i'm not saving anything you know i hadn't been on a plane until i was an adult was there a moral crisis did you start to think like uh do i owe you know what you know what got me here what about the people that are still suffering a hundred percent and really yeah absolutely i think there was there was that coupled with seeing my brother do what he was doing he went to film school and started you

know telling our stories telling yeah you know the stories that i grew up knowing and everything and like the teacher woke up yeah and just whoa all sudden, like, my brother's traveling the world on his art. This is crazy. Like, he's going, Asia? What? Like, again, I wasn't on a plane until I was an adult. Yeah. You know, and then to see my brother go to Europe and to go to Asia.

Was he doing what? Making movies or acting? Well, he had made his film. He made his film. Which film? Gun Hill Road in 2011. Yeah. Isai Morales and judy reyes and that film in harmony santana that film went on to like travel to different places in the world poland and so he's going to festivals going to festivals and i i think it's just the coolest thing in the world my big brother's but

he's not making any money there's no money there's nothing but somehow i thought okay you had leveled off i'm good you know i'm never gonna get into debt again yeah i'm good yeah i'm you know i'll stay gainfully employed my adult life and yeah i know we'll be fine right and then i thought you know how cool would it be if we became the green brothers my brother would write and direct i would produce so that's your pitch you're like i would produce no in my head, I was like, oh, I have the access. I may not have the money, but I have access to all these Wall Street people that don't know what to do with their money.

Maybe I can help them and say, hey, you want to help tell our stories? Because my brother is, look, they're comparing him to Spike Lee. They're calling him the next Spike. Like, look, he's the guy. But of course, I didn't want to live off my brother. I wanted to learn the craft. It's like one thing to face. Are you married yet?

I am married. You got married. I got married in film school. Oh, so after this. So after this. Okay. So, okay. So I'm single.

Got the production vision. I got the production. Well, I got, I got the bug. I missed, I missed a very important fact. My brother goes to film school. Yeah. He has to make a bunch of shorts. In making the shorts, he puts me in as

an actor i told you i had this little lenny kravitz thing going yeah yeah so you and the first thing that get the first short that he does gets in a sundance yeah i'm the lead actor in the show but i'm not an actor i'm just the guy that my brother put in a film you got the hair so of course i go there and i meet the real lenny kravitz i'm like this is crazy you know where'd you meet him he was at sundance that year with Precious. So all of a sudden, I'm seeing the stars that I watch on TV. I didn't really even know Sundance. You're trying to breathe in the snow.

Yeah. And it's like a hallucinatory experience seeing all those people up there. Of course. But listen, I go back to my desk job. My brother goes back to making another short film and then his feature. But at that time, he was introducing me to what a set looks like. I had been on a set. I had wrangled cables as a PA.

You worked as a PA for him? I think it was more than a PA. A glorified PA. Having your brother around. Yeah, bro. Get me, we need sandwiches. I need you to park the car.

I need you to... Right, right. We just, you know, you gotta figure it out. You learn all those things. But I still didn't know what it's like. It's like one thing to be an athlete and face a 90-mile-an-hour fastball, and then it's one thing to be a fan and see a 90-mile-an-hour fastball.

And I felt like I was a fan. I don't know what it's like to face 90-mile-an-hour heat. And now, when I decided to go to film school, I was like, oh, this is 90-mile-an-hour heat. Like, this is different. I'm experiencing the game. So you work with your brother on just getting a uh getting the hang of like seeing him work and going places with him but he had graduated he had graduated you weren't you weren't doing any

producing really yet you were just you were just hanging around with his feature film i had somehow become sort of the marketing guy at aig you know i was you know putting stuff together so i was helping him get the word out just you know like promoting for gun you know social media you know, putting stuff together. So I was helping him get the word out. Just, you know, like promoting, you know, social media. What was it called? Gun Hill Road. So I was just helping with social media. You know, at that time, Facebook was still growing and changing banners and profile pictures.

Like, what can we do to get this little indie film scene? Yeah. And I thought I was pretty good at it. You know, I was good at telling people and getting people involved. We made t-shirts and walked around the AIDS parade. Like, we did so much to try to call attention to what was that movie about? It was about a young,

um, uh, a young, uh, transgender girl, um, who basically is transitioning. Yeah.

Um, transitioning from, uh, from boy to, to girl. Um, and her father has been in prison, uh,

has been in prison and strange and comes home to realize that his son is now, uh, you know, wanting to be, wow. Is that just a made up story? No, it's based off of a real family member of ours.

Oh wow. Cousin of ours. Yeah. Uh, who has transitioned now and it's real and who had been to prison, came home and the father, the father. So the story is really told through the father. How's, how's she doing? She's doing fine. You prison came home and the father my the father so the story's really told

through the father how's how's she doing she's doing fine you know listen it the father you know hadn't spoke to the son yeah in years right once when once that happened cut him off but the movie after seeing the movie they had you know they got in touch oh really yeah it was really special to be like you know what the power of cinema huh you know seeing yourself there it is seeing yourself like where you're like whoa i'm a dad i've cut my son my daughter off it hit hard hit hard hit hard when you see that you know when you see yourself and you see that you're grappling with but it's also that's that teaching moment we're talking about yeah but you gotta understand it's like it's cultural you know there's some deep cultural things like you're not even allowed to feel that way

even if you want to. You know, like you can't come home to the community. Maybe you're okay with it but like, not your boys. Yeah, right.

You know, so it's like, it's tough. You know, and in the South Bronx, like you could lose your life. So this was a Latino community? Yeah, yeah.

Definitely. That side. Yeah, that side of it. That side of the family. Uh-huh. And wow, that's a heavy, that's a heavy. It was a heavy film. Heavy film. How's it hold. Yeah, that side of it. That side of the family. Uh-huh. And wow, that's a heavy. It was a heavy film. Heavy film.

How's it hold up? When did he make it? 2011? He made it in 2011. Yeah, it's a great little film. Okay, so there you are. You're doing the. I'm just promoting.

Being brother, promoting. Yeah, yeah. Whatever I can. My brother is doing something. Oh my God, I'm the happiest man in the world. I look up to my brother. He's a king. How much older? Three and a half years uh-huh you know i'm borrowing his clothes

get ketchup stains on it yeah sneak all that you know we went through all that but we were best friends for a long long time so you decide to to to to walk away from the gig to go to school so my brother's editing gun hill road at the time yeah right uh i remember this specifically i was i was looking for a way out i go online that day i was bored at work and i go on the nyu website it says oh there's a dual degree program you can get your mfa and mba and i read the you know one paragraph and i was like this is me it had business it had film yeah this is perfect but then i also looked and said the application was due today i was like oh crap yeah i'll wait till next year yeah i go to the editing room that night i leave office i go to visit my brother in the editing room and i was like bro i know what i want to do uh but the

application is due today it was like he steps out of the editing room he steps out he's like bro are you serious he looks at me like with like this filled heart as if he was like so disheartened i've been on wall street and waiting for my passion he's like is this really what you want to do and i was like yeah bro i'm telling you this is amazing like this is me sends a text message to the chair of the department who just writes back tell him to get it in soon yeah that's it yeah and what do you got to do i had to take the gmats i had to take i mean it was like i had to i had to make a short film i had to do two applications because it was two different schools you have to get you know get into yeah fast forward i don't get into the degree program had the interview i get i get waitlisted for the mfa program yeah so i'm like i'm waitlisted to the arguably one of the best film schools in the country yeah if i get in so

you got the short done and everything i got the short i shot it on new year's day as a comedy i'll show it to you it's called the interview um and i use my office i you know i use my office you know i'm acting in it it's uh yeah it's a it's a it's a commentary yeah on on sort of race race in in in wall street wall street yeah yeah it's it's it's quite interesting anyway uh i find out that I get accepted into the program. So now you got to go to film school. So now I got to go to film school, just the film school. Yeah.

Just the same program my brother did. I get into that program. And how long is that program? Well, it's three years of coursework, and then you can take up to two, three, four years to do your thesis. A lot of kids stay in because you can matriculate and not pay back your loans. Right. I don't even know what that means, matriculate.

It means you pay a small fee that allows you to say that you're part of the university and your student loans won't kick in because you're still taking coursework. Oh, I see. Okay, okay, yeah.

But once you graduate, you know, Sally Mae or whoever, you know, I forget what the loan company is now. They're like, hey, by the way, here you go. yeah and of course after the first year of film school and i look back and i'm like 80 grand in debt now which was double what i had for undergrad

yeah i was like well i'm all the way in now so here we go yeah you know and i graduated 2016 with 330 000 worth of debt and you know you said not paying And, you know, I'm on the road to paying it back. Yeah, I'm on the road to paying it back. You'll get it. I'm on the road. I'm on the road. They'll give you a Marvel movie after you make a few of the heartfelt...

We'll see. We'll see. You know, listen, what Ryan was able to do with a Marvel movie and make it as heartfelt, make it as grounded, make it as culturally relevant. I mean, listen, if you're allowed to do what you want to do with it and you don't sell your soul, I think you can carve out. Yeah, I think so. But it is a tricky journey in that,

not unlike whatever you felt, whatever moral turpitude you had in working on Wall Street when you realized that whatever it was, it was window dressing to some degree, I think you said, something like that. But, like, you make a movie like this one, like Monsters and Men, where, you know, you really sort of, you know, there's a lot of uncomfortable truths, and they aren't necessarily resolved in an easy way,

but there is, the ending was very, you know, was very clever and reasonable. um clever and and and reasonable you know what i mean like it was powerful but like it wasn't like we know we fixed it yeah no no because we haven't right and also the the way you ended your film is very relevant to what's happening like that like you couldn't that wouldn't come up in your head two years ago no it's crazy right no? No, not at all. But when I started writing the script and when we ended, the conversation had changed. We went from talking about Eric Garner and how important that video is to all of a sudden now you got Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, Walter Scott, Sandra Bland.

I mean, the list goes on. And there were folks before then, but we didn't have the video evidence of it. So the conversation has just changed. The movement has grown. Sure, yeah, there's that, the video. But even what happens there, the poetry of that is like just a couple years i mean it's not that's not the video that's you know that's a different cultural dialogue yeah no which which we definitely you know you might have been thrilled yeah when you figured that out well

it was crazy because it happened so you know we we we definitely utilized what was current so what was the process so you're in you're in school you're in that program and you know you did you did stop there i did stop there yep you did a lot of shorts i did a lot i made seven shorts in film school now shorts are are you know people do them it's not like there's a huge market for them but you know what is the the intent of shorts really well the intent obviously it's a it's too it's a calling card for right being able to develop longer form right so whether it's television and they teach you that they teach you the fundamentals of how to work with a crew how to um but i mean the idea that like you make

a short and it's good that'll get you seen yes that's understood film school you have to yes and no they don't really teach the festival part of it you know they they touch on it it's a graze but it's really about learning the craft and you have to say a lot of kids that go to film school are very wealthy right come from very wealthy parents yeah so they're not concerned necessarily with the business debt or the business right it's more of learning the actual right where like some of us where it's like we have to be seen in order to get any sort of traction in this world like there's no way i could pay back my loan if nobody knows who i am right i have to be able to this isn't a phase i'm going through this is not a phase this is life like you guys hey hello i'm here

hello hello i gotta make some money i gotta make not just money. I have to make, I have to be able to put myself in a position to succeed. Yes. Of course there's financial upside to that, but I, there's no way to do that without a platform. And so, you know, of course, film school grazes on that and there's producing courses that talk about that, but it's not, that's not the focus of film school. Focus is make shorts, learn how to make, shoot on film, learn how to tell a film with no dialogue, learn to shoot a film with dialogue i mean it's sort of broken into a very systematic like this is how we we do your first film which is four minutes silent black and white we do your second film which is an observational documentary we do your third film which is where you incorporate you know dialogue and you know that kind of thing and then your

second year film at tish is your big film that's the film where everybody pours their resources it's a short you make your short but it's like you combine everything you've practiced on in your first year and it's your choice how what you want to what you want to do with it and i went to cape town south africa i made the short uh called stone cars which went to can competition. And that was a life changer. What was that about? It was about a young girl who's sort of coming of age, young girl in Cape Town who's questioning her sexuality. I had gone to Cape Town six months before that in my first year between my freshman year.

Right after the first year of film school, I went to Cape Town to shoot a documentary for a nonprofit organization. You just got a job. I just to shoot a documentary um for a non-profit organization you just got a job i just got a job but it wasn't it was non-paid yeah but i get to go to africa for three for three weeks yeah live and shoot this doc how was that experience it was life-changing and it made me go back and make this short film life-changing like what what specifically it just was i had never seen poverty um like that before in my life. Never. The expansiveness of like as far as your eye can see, like that's how poor.

Like literally like, oh my God, you can see off into the mountains. Like people living in corrugated tin shacks for miles and miles on end. I'd never seen that, but I also never saw how happy a community was. Like they were the happiest people I've ever met in my life. Nobody's complaining about the food. It just was like, I'm never going to ever met in my life. Nobody's complaining about the food.

It just was like, I'm never going to complain again in my life. I'd never seen such a joy. The colors were so rich. I also felt like, you know, you go to a country or you go to a city and you're like, oh, this is a nice city. I don't know if I could live here. Cape Town felt like a place I could actually live. Really?

I was like, this isn't, I don't know. I don't feel that about, I don't feel that about LA. Right. But I go to Cape town and I'm like, I feel like I could actually live in this place. I felt pure joy. It was amazing. But I mean,

I was also saddened by the poverty. I was saddened by the situation. I met this young girl there who, who, you know, who ended up becoming the subject of my little, my little documentary who I ended up casting in the short film. Sounds like a heavy short.

It's heavy. Yeah. I mean, it deals with, you know, with rape culture, you know, it deals, it deals a little, a little bit with that. You know, it's another slice of life story, very similar to stop. I stopped after that. And what worked in stone cars is what I try to keep in sort of the, the filmmaking language, which is a certain poetic ambiguity. Yes. And you have that in Stone Car. That was the first time.

But because that film was able to play on HBO, went to Cannes in competition, all of a sudden, I'm a director. Yeah. I wouldn't even know if I was considering myself. Again, I told you I wanted to produce. I was trying to produce. I was producing for all of my other friends.

You were? I was producing. I produced 20 shorts in trying to produce I was producing for All of my other friends You were? I was producing I produced 20 shorts In film school I won the top producing prize At NYU I didn't win top Directing anything

Well because that was Because you stuck with that As being your primary focus That was going to be my focus Yeah You wanted to learn How to produce Whether you were in

The MBA program or not Exactly And so I just started producing Yeah And what does that entail When you're doing shorts Just organizing like you know Yeah Getting the insurance Getting're doing shorts? Just organizing like, you know. Yeah.

Getting the insurance, getting locations, making sure stuff shows up on time, you know, hiring the crew. Yeah. You know, all, like everything. And so you learned that. I learned all that. And somehow learning that, I also learned how to make stuff for nothing. Yeah.

And so I would be able to take a small thing thing like Stop, which I made for 500 bucks. People are like, how did you make that for 500 bucks? What did you shoot it on? We shot it on a red, but I borrowed my friend's camera.

Right. Who was a DP. Right. Because you knew him from producing. Yeah, but otherwise you go, you know, you rent that camera

for two days, you're already at $2,000 or whatever, you know, $3,000 for the weekend. Right. But the thing about Stop, which is really interesting,

is again, you know, you're moving through this event, you which is really interesting is again you know you're moving through this this event you know it's really you know the whole film takes place almost in real time right yeah and and uh and you know you don't everything is loaded up you know as soon as he you know he's as soon as he's on the bus as soon as he puts his hoodie up to get off the bus, you're like, already it's referencing everything that could go horribly wrong. It's all very subtle.

When he gets home and just dumps the weed, just that, you're like, that was all it could take for that guy's life to be over. Right? Absolutely. I mean.

You're hoping that people aren't going like, you know, you got through it. What are you dumping the weed for? Well, it's hilarious. You know, I had so many different reactions. I had other folks, you know, who were like, they were happy that he had weed. Yeah. Like celebrating. Like got away with it.

Oh, like, yeah, that's right. They had the right to stop him i'm like they kind of missed the point but both of those kind of reactions too which look look yeah they had the right to stop him because he had weed what the fuck is that it's like what's weed you didn't even know you didn't know that he had weed right you assumed who the hell had that reaction i mean you know there was audience members really audience members when we were trying to see they, so they were like, those cops had good instincts.

They just fucked up. Yeah. That's their side. Yeah, I got a couple of the Staten Island kids, like, look, look. Yeah, see, that cop, those weren't wrong. He got away with it. He's lucky.

Yeah, and then you had, but then you had other folks. You know, I had a black woman in the audience who was not happy with me for having put weed on the kid. Like, why would you, you know, why would you show that? Well, because you needed an ending. Well, that as well. But also, you know, but my answer has always been,

it wasn't about the weed. The film is not about the weed. It's about the stuff. It's about the stuff, yeah. So it only complicates that. It only makes it more complex of how we look at it it only makes it a little bit more gray but if you think about it like he should he been stopped in the first place that's right and also it just comes into play like you know the the percentage of you know black guys who are busted for small

drug uh uh what not even crime. Yes. Small possessions. And they're done. They're introduced into jail culture and it's over for them. Yeah. And so, yeah, and now weed has become illegal in many, many states. But they're still, you know, they'll still find a way to, you know.

Yep. So coming out of that, you know, where did Stop go as a short? So Stop premiered at Sundance. Premiered at Sundance. So I think I mentioned, I cast a real New York City police officer in the film. And a guy you grew up with. A guy I grew up with. We go to Sundance together.

He's lodging with me. So he's my buddy. We knew each other. We start talking. It's 2 o'clock in the morning. We're eating pizza. We start talking about the Eric Garner case in Staten Island, where we're from, where I used to deliver pizza. Somehow we get, it starts off in a conversation, ends in a heated debate, what ends up becoming

the dinner scene in the film. Oh, yeah. But that conversation, so, you know, what I saw on the tape was a guy that should be alive, and he said- And he's not African American, this guy. No, he's a white cop. Yeah. He's a white cop.

Yeah. And, but anyway, so, but he was like, Ray, listen, it's unfortunate what happened to him. You know, it's terrible, but he was resisting arrest. Of course we start getting, well, just because he was resisting. I was like, Brian, he could have a shotgun and killed everybody in that store. Yeah. Left it there on the ground, come out and he, our, you know, due process says he should

still be alive. Yeah. And my, you know, we're just going back and forth. Right. You know, and next thing you know, he's talking about everything be alive yeah and my you know we're just going back and forth right you know and next thing you know he's talking about everything that's not on the tape yeah you don't understand what it's like being a police officer you don't understand what it's like you don't understand that these police officers had a relationship with him that they were trying to move him for 10 minutes what would you do what would you do if you're in that situation he kept like kind of you know getting what would you do well brian i wouldn't have gotten on his

neck and choked him yeah you know and by the end by the end, we're like, not like going to fight, but it's, well, I wasn't going to fight him because he has a gun and he's a police officer. But it was like, it was intense. And he was in tears. He was in tears because he was feeling real pain. He felt like I was attacking him. I wasn't. I was asking questions about, you you know what do we do about this

situation and he couldn't resolve it couldn't resolve and are you guys still friends he came back to be a to be an actor in the future we're still friends yeah still friends uh who was he in the future he's the same guy he was in the short oh the one of the two guys he's one of the two cops yeah so it goes to show that he's still an active cop he's still an active cop. Yeah. So it goes to show that- Is he still an active cop? He's still an active cop. Where? He works downtown. I don't want to give away his priesthood, but he works downtown Manhattan. So was that confrontation the seeds of the feature?

100%. I had no intention of taking my nine minutes short and making a feature. None whatsoever. That conversation was like, whoa. And still, even then, I was like, and still even then it took i was like oh this is a really crazy conversation six months later i'm still thinking about that conversation and thinking well i haven't i have to figure out what i'm gonna do as a feature you know my mom's coming in what am i doing i want to stick to my roots and then i got this idea of doing a triptych

you know i could i could i had three characters yeah but i had two i had i had the cop and i had the kid but i was like that is that's a circle you know which cop the black cop well he wasn't a black cop yet okay and so i came to the conclusion i said well if i made because he was a white cop i had a conversation with i thought the film was going to be black and white oh you know it's a white cop, black, you know, us versus them. And I didn't want that to get lost. And so when it came to me that, oh, I should make it a black cop. But that wasn't the cop in the film that did the stop.

No, he was not the guy. He wasn't even there. He wasn't the guy. He wasn't even there. He's one step removed. You don't even see. It's interesting in the movie that you never really see it. No, you never see it.

Yeah. Never see it. Because, you know, that was a conscious decision. I said, you know what? We can turn on the TV and see that. Yeah. What's different about this movie than everything else? And it's how these people-

But what's interesting is you deny the audience the ability to assess what happened from their point of view. Mm-hmm. So you're kind of forced to move through the two distinct point of views. You know, like, did the guy go for the gun do you not go for the gun so like it doesn't matter yeah it doesn't matter yeah it doesn't matter yeah the guy didn't have a gun didn't have a gun right but but i thought that the performance that you got out of john david washington for me and i'm just saying this you know i don't think you know

you know spike's gonna ever listen to my show but i thought i thought it was a better performance than black clansman which is like the tone of that movie's tricky yeah but like spike yeah i could do spike you know spike spike tone and and it's i saw it in the uk and obviously i went to support spike and support uh john david and you know listen i i think spike was back with the film it was the best film he's made in years and I thought you know like kudos hats off to to to the master sure I was absolutely I was just waiting the whole movie for his signature shot I'm waiting for the dolly to happen thank you Spike now we're moving now you're moving you gave it to me you're waiting we're on a rolling thing on a rolling thing um but no I mean John David man I mean he really no I like that but it's interesting that movie because like

I did not walk away from it because of the tone I didn't walk away from it you know mulling over do you know what I mean

like because it was very compact and it was and it was very some of the characters are very broad right and there wasn't

a lot of room but like I walk away from your film like oh you know like it's complicated it's complicated but it's also it's gritty enough broad yeah right and there wasn't a lot of room but like i walk away from your film like oh you know like it's complicated it's complicated but it's also it's gritty enough to where your relationship with the characters feels genuine do you know what i mean like these are guys when i lived in new york i saw these guys you know there was a tone to it to how you capture the neighborhood

and all the you know you you know the way, you know, when you're doing these sort of beautiful panning shots from a distance, but also you get right up into people's shit. So the mixture of that, you know, really kind of works, you know, and I don't always pay attention to that stuff, but you're a director. Oh, thank you. No, no, I appreciate it. You know, I work closely with our DP, Pat Scola, who did an amazing job. And he came on in the 11th hour.

I'd never worked with him before, but we talked a lot about like, we wanted to, we wanted to feel complicit with each of these guys. We don't, we only have 30 minutes, 25 minutes with each of them. So we got to love them.

Right. You know, from the opening scene, like I want you to be singing along, you know, when you go into Manny's apartment, I want you to smell the platanos. Like I want you to feel that little bit of Puerto Rican culture.

Like, cause we don't have so much time. Yeah. So we have to, you know, we have to feel and how we lens them, wide lenses, moving close. How do we capture that? Let's not rack focus to people

that don't need to be rack focused to. It's about them and their experience. So the panning shots, the longer shots, were really to sort of make you feel the expanse and also the intimacy of the neighborhood, whereas when you walk into Manny's apartment and his mother and his girlfriend's there with the kid or his wife, whatever, then all of a sudden you're in that. So that was a nice way to treat the environment as a character.

Oh, thank you. Right? Yeah. And I learned a lot from Spike in Do the Right Thing and how he used Bed-Stuy in one block. Right, right. And, you know, of course, this is shot in a few blocks in Bed-Stuy, but how he used that character in a film was just amazing. The bodega. The bodega.

Yep. And then he had the pizza parlor. Exactly, he had the pizza parlor. The bodega, like, if you've lived in New York, you're like, oh, that place. That place. Yeah, yeah, you know it. You know that Orning. You know the yellow. Yeah.

You know, I wanted the film to feel familiar but also different. Right. And like, oh, like you think you know what this movie's about. Like there's so many

assumptions about it and then we subvert. Right. We subvert. We subvert. Well, that was, what was interesting right away for me was that,

you know, you have this guy that's like trying to be on the up and up. He's got a kid at home. He's got another one coming and he's going looking for jobs but then when shit turns shit, when shit turns bad on the street in a minute he's like you know

fuck you like you know like right away this guy who's you're gonna he's got to look out for himself and for his life but as soon as he sees the cops doing bad shit like he's provoking yeah you know you know you can't like right and that was sort of like wow but that's that neighborhood yeah right it's it is and you know you grow up a certain way and it's like you defend right you know and when you see somebody that you know has been attacked like all of it's just the street comes out of you yeah you know it's it's it's family it's beyond right because it's not about it's not about money it's not about about, it's about like, it's about what's right. Yeah, the same right.

The same right. Yeah. So, yeah, and the way you establish a victim, like, was fairly quick, but you knew that guy too, as well as you know the bodega. You know, that guy. Yeah. Right. You've seen him before.

Yeah, I have. Yeah. But, so what was the, you know, in making the movie in terms of not so much directing, but in story, you know, what was the trickiest part for movie in terms of not so much directing but in story you know what what was the trickiest part for you what would you get stuck on well i think the hardest part is you know when you're doing a triptych you know is is and the characters are manny the cop uh manny played by uh anthony ramos and then dennis played by john david washington and then and zyric played by calvin harrison Jr. And I guess the hardest part in doing any film,

but especially a triptych, was how are these stories going to intersect? And in the script, you know, especially even getting the financing, they want more, more, more, more, more, more Crash. You know, more of that type of... And I didn't want to make Crash. Crash was done.

Crash won an Oscar. You know, that was that kind of film. You know, and I didn't want to make Crash. Crash was done. Crash won an Oscar. You know, that was that kind of film, you know, and so, you know. But that wasn't as intimate. It was a little more spread out.

Yeah, exactly, but the feeling of wanting this, this kind of intersecting, this intercutting. Right, and the way you did that was just the nature of the fucking neighborhood.

Like with Crash, you had to have people walking in, like, you know, it's like really. Yeah, like my cousin with the thing and it's like,

I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to do that i don't want to i don't want to do that kind of these guys all like all of them knew like that one line where where uh john david washington sees that man he's been busted that he says they finally got man they got they got got him on something yeah like you know him from the neighborhood these cops know everybody from they know everybody they know you know what they get him on, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And that's, like, it's interesting. I'm just realizing talking to you is that, you know, his story doesn't get any resolution at all.

Not even, you know, a morally ambiguous one. Yeah. Not even, I don't know if it's moral. That was, his character was the toughest for me because my impulse was to bring him back. You know, I loved him so much when writing him. And I was like, he's somebody that people are going to want to see him, but they want it to turn out. All right.

I want, yeah, you just want to be okay. You just want to see him again. You just want to, Oh, just, just check in with him as a character,

you know? And I, my, but my impulse was like, you know, I was like the reality of situations like God, like Manny, that we don't know what happened to them.

And I know maybe that's a, you know, intellectual exercise, but i was like i think that's closer to the truth than actually continuing to follow what's happening and i'm hoping that through these other stories we can check in with him that way we check in with his girlfriend and realize oh we do miss him we miss him when zyric goes in and plays with the airplane and we remember what happens on the rooftop we remember right but like you but like We remember. Right, but for me, most importantly, was that you don't make it clear that he was set up.

Yeah. Right? So where'd this kid get this gun from? It's sort of like you don't know from his reaction whether he's guilty or not. Yeah. You know, your assumption is these fuckers set him up, but then you're sort of like,

well, he didn't really react that way, did he? It's great. it's great it's great it is great and i think you know i think most people you know will know we've never seen him with the gun right we've never seen him go get the gun right so right so like in the in the story math in the story math it looks like he got set up it looks like he got set up in my in my math but one could say in the same way that that woman said to me you know or you know the celebration of he had drugs they had every reason to do it there's going to be a handful of folks that feel that way and and i'm okay with that but all i kept thinking about like you know is that he's got to live with that for the rest of his life you know that the whatever your argument with your friend was about you know how cops you know we don't understand it you do understand that

as people you know if they have a conscience that hasn't been destroyed they're gonna carry that you know that they're carrying all that shit all the time all the time uh we had a consultant on the film edwin raymond yeah who has a open case against the nypd right now uh and he taught he talks a lot about you know he still he said he's up for promotion he hasn't gotten his promotion he passed all the tests he has all the qualifications keeps getting denied doesn't know what i mean obviously he's suing the nypd so that could be a big big part of it but like it's real stuff well it's like serpico man serpico did you watch that love that film yeah when they fucking when when his like they set him up yeah i mean that's fucked up yeah it was it was a reference film you know it was a reference film for us we had we had a few you did

few few films that probably won't translate like you know elephant or uh you know amoros perros and uh you know what about elephant in the way that gus van zandt transferred you know follow you'd follow the back of someone's head oh yeah and all of a sudden you're somebody else but the genius of that film is that it's in one location yeah you know it's sort of self-contained that way where this was like, we're everywhere. Can we do that? Can we transition out in the streets? You know,

that's something we can do. So it was an experiment, but we tried a bit. But I love how, you know, how he used Steadicam and how gracefully he was able to do that. And so you see that

and how we transitioned and made sure Steadicam was how we were going to use it. And it's so funny because it's such a white movie. Yeah, yeah. It is quite, it is quite a white movie. Yeah, yeah. It is quite a white movie. You know, like I just realized that.

Artfully told, though. Like it's like, oh, no, no, it's a beautiful movie, but it's sort of very, even the outdoors. Yeah, no. It had a sort of clean. Trees and clean. Yeah, yeah. Heavy, man.

That's a heavy. It's a heavy, heavy show. In that movie, you know, just the choice to sort of put them in the shower together for a second i know it was sort of like whoa yeah yeah no it's it's uh i mean that was a heavy film but yeah no i mean you know there was a lot of yours but i'll tell you at the end like i was like satisfied you know like i got a little nervous when you know he's like i want to get involved and there's that sort of like he likes that girl too but like you know well here's what you do you start doing this and i'm like is this gonna get sappy and it didn't okay good good yeah i was like this can't be a love story right right it's a love story in a different way yeah it's a

love story in a different way you know you know it's not about you know physical chemistry so it's about yeah it's it's a it's it's about what is it if it's it's not about physical chemistry but it's about um waking up you know to to to social awareness and social responsibility yeah i think there's there's that component you know it's funny because i i feel like i have a different answer every time and well that, that character in particular. You know, his character. And I think,

I've been thinking about it a lot this week. You know, I've been asked a lot. You're talking a lot. Well, it's because it's so many things, you know. But I've been trying to boil it down.

Like, what is it for me? Like, what, you know, what is it? I had all these different things. And I realized, like, there's so much silence in the film. You know, there's so many

characters that don't sort of speak up yeah and I think for the longest time you know growing up in Staten Island growing up with teammates that were like very racist towards like the teams we were playing but like no offense right no offense not you yeah you got a little of that in there yeah like no way not you yeah but I can call yeah I can use the n-word and use other epithets against your teammates who are basically my brothers or cousins. Yeah.

You know, so, but I, but I couldn't say anything. I was quiet. And then I had a father who protected us from those things. And, you know, you kind of stay in line. And now as I get older, as I have a family, I'm like, I don't want to be afraid to speak up. Even if it, you know, like you're afraid to raise your hand in the back of class you know oh yeah people gonna look at you you're gonna think you're stupid are you gonna say something that i just as i get older i'm saying more things right you know and i'm like

i think it's okay it's okay to yeah to say something yeah that you believe in it's time it's time and this film is sort of my time well yeah it's great and but i think it must be tricky you know as a black filmmaker now you're gonna get those questions yeah it's great and but i think it must be tricky you know as a black filmmaker now you're gonna get those questions where it's like well how do we fix this race thing right well we fix it by talking about it yeah and not but the thing is we've become so do you find that that you're getting questions that are broader than the film because it's like the film doesn't answer it doesn't give you the answer it's like but, but that's not, I think if I said, this is how we fix the world, who am I? Just watch this movie.

Yeah, it's all done. I'm a dweeb. What do I know? I know how to fix the world, but I know that we need to have difficult conversations. And tell these stories. And tell these stories. I know we have to feel uncomfortable at times. We have to, because if we're constantly creating a bubble of around only like-minded

thinkers we're never going to move past i learned that on wall street you know in terms of diversity it was like if i walk into a boardroom and everybody looks like me yeah there's no diversity of thought like we're all we're going to get the same product but if you have yeah maybe you have a little argument or disagreement but you know at the end result will be better yeah so that's a good team's work that's that a, that's understanding the game. Understanding the game. It's a chess, it's chess,

you know? It's chess, but it's also baseball. It's like, you know, like that argument, like, you know,

you made a good point and, uh, you've, you've showed me a different, uh, you've opened up, I didn't, it's not winning or losing,

you know, it's, it's just, you just stay in it. Yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely.

Well, it's a great film and I wish you the best of luck. Thank you very much. Good talking to you, man. man you too thank you so much great guy real worker that guy good story uh you should see the movie i don't know where it's like i don't know what happens to movies but i'm very detached but i do know you can you see it see it on Blu-ray, DVD, and digital on January 8th, Monsters and Men. All right. Okay.

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