WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 989 - Allison Janney

Episode Date: January 28, 2019

Allison Janney won an Oscar playing the mother of a figure skater, but when she was younger she actually wanted to be a figure skater. That dream was cut short by a freak accident as a teenager and her acting career didn’t really take off until she was 38. In between, she tells Marc how she became friends with Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, took an aptitude test that told her to become a systems analyst, and was told by casting agents that she could only play lesbians or aliens. Allison also talks about the grueling shooting days on The West Wing, why her Oscar win was such a relief, and how a personal tragedy was part of the reason she did the show Mom. This episode is sponsored by TurboTax Live, the New York Times Crossword App, and Stamps.com. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it if you're new here hang out for a minute get to know some of the other people uh you don't have to you know you can talk if you want you can talk back to uh me and to my guest while you're listening you can uh get mad you can uh uh laugh do whatever you need to do just hang out and uh see if it works for you i i you know i i'm not everybody's cup of tea but uh that's okay that's a weird thing about uh getting older or getting more comfortable i don't know but uh i'm not i'm not really competing with anybody anymore you You know why? Because who gives a fuck? It takes too much energy to be jealous or compare yourself to other people.

Because if you're doing okay, if you're just doing okay, you're probably winning. And I don't like to use the word winning. First, I want to say that Allison Janney, the Allison Janney, Oscar award winning Allison Janney, one of the most amazing actresses and presences. Is that a word? Presences from the show. She's on the show, Mom, but you've seen her in many movies. She's in the West Wing. She's been in a million things.

But Allison Janney is here. All right. Hey, look, I've got some announcements. A couple of big breakthroughs. But mostly I'd like to tell the people of the UK and Ireland that I'm coming there in April. I'll be at the Lowry in Salford April 4th. I'll be at the Royal Festival Hall back in London April 6th. April 4th, I'll be at the Royal Festival Hall back in London.

April 6th, I'll be at the Birmingham Rep on April 8th. And on April 11th, I'll be back in Dublin at Vicar Street. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all the ticket info for the upcoming, I think, four or five more dates at the Dynasty Typewriter here in Los Angeles through February. Those are Sundays at 7 o'clock. So they're nicely positioned time-wise for those of you who need to get sitters or whatnot. Those are on February 10th, February 17th, February 24th, and March 17th here in Los Angeles. 17th, February 24th, and March 17th here in Los Angeles. And then I got a couple of dates in Colorado coming up March 23rd at the Wheeler Opera House in Aspen and March 24th in Boulder. I'll be doing a more extensive club tour, preparing the hour, reaching out to the people,

doing multiple shows in multiple cities before I do a few theaters here and there. Keeping it light, not trying to kill myself or win some goddamn prize. But those days will be forthcoming after I get done with shooting of the third season of Glow. So there's that. Something happened that does sort of imply change is possible on all levels, but certainly personal. And yeah, I'm not thrilled about it, but it happened and it happened in sort of a roundabout way in a theater. in a theater so what is the dramatic change i've been doing a lot of comedy lately i finally broke some ground on some new kind of you know personally relevant bits which is good doing the work on that i was at the comedy store last night and for some reason chevy chase got on stage with no act at all uh with not do did nothing you know it's sort of weird to see him but like you know his i used to love him when i was a kid but you know over time you start to realize man

he seems to be a kind of cranky nasty old fuck and i saw him sitting in the back of the room i didn't know why i thought maybe he's just, wanted to come watch some comedy and judge. But he got up there and he took questions for about 20 minutes and it was up and down. But it was one of those things where it's like, why did that just happen? I guess he's Chevy Chase. He can get up there and do what he needs to do. But why did he want to do it? I don't was uh it was very bizarre and it happened i saw it happen i was there and i was wandering around the back of the room going what's going on what is going on what is happening right now 75 year old chevy chase is up there asking people to ask him questions in the original room with the comedy store but i think people were were happy to see him

and uh you know that's what he did there were some moments but it was just a bizarre thing where you're like why did that happen this is not that was not life-changing if anything it was a little slightly sad but whatever all right so here's what happens and this is really what i wanted to talk about the change in my life is that uh i think i'm turning a corner on steely dan hey look it's not a big it's i'm not dropping a bomb here maybe i am i've been judgmental and maybe this might give a portal of hope to those people that are upset about my point of view about you know marvel movies maybe maybe it's only a matter of time before, as I get older and softer, before I start to relent on my opinions about that.

But I was at a play, a play, say the L right, play. That was really the high point, though. I don't go to theater much here in Los Angeles. But my friend, and I'm going to call him that if I can now, judge me, whatever. I don't care. My friend Tracy Letts has a play up here in Los Angeles at the Mark Taper Forum called Linda Vista. And Mr. Letts, my buddy Tracy, set me and my buddy Duncan Birmingham up with a couple of tickets last week. And we went, and I got to say,

I don't know how many of you have seen any of Tracy's plays. I haven't seen enough of them. I saw August Osage County, which was genius. Won a fucking Pulitzer. I talked to him about it. But this Linda Vista play is fucking great. And I do not understand why. i've talked about this before you know go to the theater it's right there i drove down on a wednesday night and i parked on the goddamn street down there it was no hassle at all and i went in and i sat i did not

know what to i didn't know what to expect from this play but But man, it was for me, it was relatable. It was funny. It had a great pace. And it wasn't tragic. It was sad in parts, but ultimately buoyed by the humanity of it and the comedy of it and the relatability of it. It's very modern. I don't want to give anything away. But there's

some nudity in the play, but it's not gratuitous. it's kind of visceral and raw and necessary and uh it's a lot about relationships it's about who we think we are as as people and how we interact with others and and at the center of it is a cranky smart defensive broken self-involved man. But there's a lot of women around. There's a balance. There are relevant themes in it about relationships between men and women, between men and men,

between ourselves and ourselves, between us and others, people from other countries. It's got it all, but it's all all very confined almost to three or four settings an apartment in san diego and a camera shop and a restaurant or two and a bedroom but it's like it just jams the language of it the pace of it the comedy of it and the main character the guy who played the main guy, was just great. Everybody was great. And it's a Tracy Letts play, so it's got some punch, man. But where's the big revelation? Is that what you're asking? Outside of having an amazing night at the theater, what changed?

I explained to you it was the Steely Dan. How did it change? Well, the main character in the play he likes steely dan and they and in the play in transitions they played like two or three bits of steely dan songs and i've been sort of weird and snobby about steely dan i've always felt that it was too sterile too jazzy too clean too you know orchestrated the the very tone of it i found condescending. But there was something about in between scenes, set changes. They played just a bit of Pretzel Logic. And it just like all of a sudden I realized like, wait, there's a blues song in there.

I can hear it. And I got home and I I put on pretzel logic and I've I of course I know some of the songs on there but I I don't I've always just sort of been like oh okay yeah of course I know that song I know the chorus was pounded into my head but never I and I I resented people that like Steely Dan because they really like them and it's almost like a fucking religion. But I listened to it all. And I realized, like, that guitar is kind of a little dirty. That's not alienating. That's not.

This is all right. It might be better than all right. It might be amazing. I'm not going to give it that. But point is, I turned a corner. I turned a corner on Steely Dan. So Allison Janney. I was thrilled that Allison wanted to do the show because I'm a big fan.

She seems like an amazing person and an interesting person and somebody I wanted to talk to. And I was excited to have the opportunity. She's currently in the show Mom. It's in its sixth season. It's on CBS on Thursday nights. She's also in the new movie Troop Zero, which has its world premiere at Sundance this Friday, February 1st. And this is me talking to the truly amazing Allison Janney. And this is me talking to the truly amazing Allison Janney. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats.

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I'm too small for this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. You know Phil Rosenthal. I do know Phil Rosenthal. So Phil Rosenthal. I do know Phil Rosenthal. So Phil Rosenthal invited me and my parents, who are in town from Ohio, to a goose dinner tonight. So today I text him and I go, what time's goose dinner? And he goes, 5 p.m. And I'm like, who has goose dinner at 5 p.m.?

So then I was like, I'm doing Marc Maron's podcast from 4 to 5. I can't be there at 5 and he said well see if you can do it earlier and I was like well I'll see but I think I'm just going to be a little late to Goose Dinner

Where's Goose Dinner? Is that like in Palisades or something? No he lives over in the Wilshire mid Wilshire area Yeah I had him on years ago and I think it went okay

What happened? He said to say hi so it it must have been a problem. No, no, no, we're fine, we're fine. But I watched a documentary he made about traveling to Russia to sell Everyone Loves Raymond to a global, anywhere he can. And in the documentary, it was clear that his parents still lived in the house that he grew up in. And I had this moment where I'm like, why don't you get him a house? And he's like, they're fine, they're fine.

And I just sort of like, yeah, I have a billion dollars. Maybe you can get your folks a house. I think that he finally did, by the way. Oh, good. Goose is nice. It's very fatty. I don't know.

I'm afraid it's going to be a little gamey. I'm not a fan of gamey things. It's not gamey. It's fatty. It is? What, you've never had Goose? I've never had Goose. Really?

I've played Duck, Duck, Goose. Sure. I've been called Goose. Been Goosed? I've been Go Goose. Really? I've played Duck, Duck, Goose. Sure. I've been called Goose. Uh-huh. Been Goosed? I've been Goosed. Yeah, all those things. But not in an office situation?

No, not in a Me Too way. You haven't been Me Too Goosed? No. Good. I've been listening to your pod. I listen to it a lot. You do? Yeah, I do.

And I was afraid to come on your podcast because I feel like I'm a better listener than I am a talker. So if you could just talk to me for an hour. Do you want to talk more about goose? No, I don't. I'm done with the goose. My goose is cooked. I have one goose story where some years ago, it was Christmas, and a drug dealer that knew everybody and was involved in everyone's life.

I can't believe drug dealers associated with a goose story. Yeah, no, he had a Christmas party or a birthday party for a guy I knew that is now a farmer in Nebraska, alcoholic farmer in Nebraska. But they cooked a goose, but there was no plates. So it was really, it was just, there was no, it feels like there was no knife, but there was this cooked goose that people were just going at. Did you just like pass it around and gnaw on it

and rip off the cheese? Yeah, and just, and it was, yeah, it was not, it was, I don't think it was your traditional

Christmas goose dinner. No, no, that sounds very, not traditional. Yeah. I used to have no utensil meals in college.

You did? I went to Kenyon College in Ohio, and we used to, I don't know why we thought this was a fun thing to do. We'd go to the diner in Mount Vernon, Ohio, and have breakfast, and you just couldn't use utensils. Oh, you had to use your hands no matter what? Yeah, no matter what. It wasn't like a Moroccan-themed? No, no. It was a diner, diner.

You know, sunny-side up eggs, and you just had to eat everything with your hands.can themed? No. No. It was a diner. Diner. You know, sunny side up eggs. Sure. And you just had to eat everything with your hands. You and your friends. Yeah. Yeah. Was it a theater thing? I don't know. I don't know.

It was a stupid thing. It was a really stupid thing. One of those things you do in college. Did you smoke? Oh, yeah. Yeah? Yeah. When did you give it up?

Who said I gave it up? Oh, nice. Good for you. Hang in there. Well, I'll tell you what. No. No quitter. Yeah i have i've been back and forth with that and i just um yeah i've quit so many times and i'm i'm reading for the fifth time uh alan carr's easy way to stop smoking yeah you gotta read it again again i'm reading it right now i have a stop date again

but he did just have to play this role in this movie about Roger Ailes. I had to play Susan Estrich, Roger Ailes. She's a feminist lawyer, activist, rape survivor. Incredibly smart woman. But she talks like this. So I was doing a whole movie like that. So I can't stop smoking now. Did she smoke?

Oh, yeah. I think, yeah. But not on camera, obviously. But you could tell that she smoked. So I thought, I can't quit smoking now. I've got to keep smoking because I've got to keep that voice going. For real. You want it to be authentic.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And you still have it. Good. I can go down there, but. Yeah. Well, you know, if you keep smoking, you'll just have that voice.

I'm not going to. I'm just going to have Paul Malls fall out of my mouth when I open it. Paul Malls. Strangely mild for the fact that they're not filterous, is my recollection of them. I've never smoked a Paul Mall. What was your cigarette? What was? Or his, whatever, wherever you're at.

What did you start with? I started with, for whatever reason, Terrytons, because I'd rather fight than switch. Would your folks smoke those? No, no,ons, because I'd rather fight than switch. Would your folks smoke them? No, no, actually, that's not true. My first cigarette was my grandmother, who I blame. She glamorized it all because she would go to the beach with her straw hats and her yarn around her hats and her shaker of martinis and her Marlboro Reds. Yes, that was what I started with. So I would steal, and she had them in her house in the little silver cups with the cigarettes everywhere back when it was like, you know.

And I'd steal a couple of those and take them to the beach and we'd go under the boardwalk and smoke Marlboro Reds. It was kind of, it was like so, I mean, God, that habit was so romanticized and so mischaracterized and everything it brings to you. It just, they really did a great job of marketing that stuff. And I still love them. No matter what I know about them, my character on Glow smokes, and I've got to smoke those horrible herbals. But you know what's nice about smoking?

When you get cast to smoke, you know how to do it. Yeah, nothing worse than a smoker who doesn't know how to smoke. But I actually told people how to do it because the trick is you never look at the cigarette. That's what you look like. Oh, yeah, it's just part of your body. You just don't look at it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so weird to have them back in my hand again. Oh, God. Marlboro Redzo. I read just the other day that they were originally marketed to women before cowboys. Really?

Yeah. I don't know when that happened, but I'm reading a book about the making of the Wild Bunch and somehow it went on a tangent about Marlboro because of someone in the book. And originally it was marketed to women, and then they just shifted the complete other direction. God, I wish, I wish, I can't even see what the visual was for that, for women. Yeah, yeah.

It was probably, well, I don't know, but God, they did. So what about that Fox movie? How did it come out? What are you feeling? Well, I didn't, I didn't I didn't I just finished I think they they wrapped today actually really

yeah so it's not it's just it'd be edited and everything has to come out and I signed an NDA so I can't talk about it at all except for to say

that I did it and what's his name Roach directed it Jay Roach Jay Roach God I love him yeah have you met him

I met him on a plane once and I have not I think he wanted to be on the show I should probably have him on the show but I forgot you've met him on a plane once and i have not uh i think we he wanted to be on the show i should probably have him on the show but i forgot you would like him he seemed like a nice guy he's a really smart thoughtful guy as a director as an actor uh he the notes john i got to work with john lithgow and we just were sitting together and jay would come over and say something and john looked at me and said i've everything he says i can use really not there's nothing he says that you can't use as an actor.

It's really extraordinary. And he's really gracious and supportive and appreciative of what you do as an actor. Yeah. Is it shot as a comedy? No, it's. You can't talk about it at all. I mean, he's sort of a comedy director. So I was just wondering.

Yeah, no, this is not that. Okay, fine. I understand. I'm not going to try. I look at the naked mind of Buddy Hackett. I'm just looking. Yeah, no, this is not that. Okay, fine. I understand. I'm not going to try. I look at the naked mind of Buddy Hackett. I'm just looking at your book. His son gave that to me. Really?

I mean, look, I just stuck it up there. I love it. There's a few books, you know. I love the book. That's a book I would buy for its cover. Exactly. The Naked Mind of Buddy Hackett. I love it.

Yeah, these are just some of the books. And all your guitars. Guitars. And then stashed over there, hidden, is the recovery stack that's on the floor there. Oh, I've got all my self-help books on the bottom of my shelf, too, like tons of them. My mother sent me one every week when I was in college. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

That's hilarious. Yeah. I've got recovery books, too. I've got everything. I'll be honest with you. When I've had, I don't know if I should tell you. What? Well, I had, like, you know, Brolin was coming on, Josh.

Yeah. Yeah. And I put my, I made sure I put my 12 and 12 up on this shelf so he would see it directly. So he would, you know, start maybe talking about it. Oh. You know what i mean because you're not supposed to talk about it but i do openly and i you know it's like you know fuck it i mean in my mind in my mind it's like you know normalizing that thing is the best anyone can do so too at this at this juncture that tradition has to be rethunk. I agree. I concur. So now, Ohio, you went to Kenyon,

but were you from there? Well, I was born in Boston while my father was finishing at Harvard Business School. Oh, that's fancy. And then they moved to Cincinnati, Ohio, and then to Dayton, Ohio. And my father went into his grandfather's business, which was commercial real estate.

Oh, and he stayed in that? And he stayed in that, even though in his heart, he's an artist, he's a musician. What's he play? He's a jazz pianist and he plays guitar. Yeah. He's just, my dad is 85 and he just, I bought him a recumbent trike for for the holidays while he's out here he was

when i left he was out on a bike trail somewhere and he'll come home and play guitar for hours really yeah he just still sit and he's good he's really good his hands are he's got some um arthritis stuff so the piano is a little harder from him but but he is um jazz piano was what he grew up doing i mean you grew up with that in the, jazz piano was what he grew up doing. And you grew up with that in the house? Oh, every day, yeah. I grew up with that kind of music

every morning, every night he'd come home and we used to joke that he learned to play the piano so he wouldn't have to talk to anybody because he really,

he loves to just be at the party and be the guy who's making the music but he doesn't have to do any small chat, any chit-chat, anything. But the guitar now, he just, who was he? He made me, I set up my Sonos system for him on his phone

and he put on Jimmy Rainey, who he's listening to right now, a guitarist that he's listening to. What kind of jazz piano did he play, old-timey? He listened to like Fats Waller or Tatum, that kind of music. It was really great to have that growing up. That's nice.

And yet I didn't. I mean, I learned to play the piano, but I didn't follow through on that. Instead, I wanted to become a figure skater, and then I went into this, into acting. And then, you know, just it never, my musical talent didn't come out of my fingers. But it was an encouraging environment to be creative. Yes, and to music for music is very much a big part of my what i do when i act i always have to find music that um helps me feel a certain way whatever i have to feel in a scene yeah music helps me get anywhere i need to go yeah so you can identify certain pieces of music that'll make you have

certain feelings yeah huh yeah and did your mom, was she a musician? No, she was an actress. She went to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York City. She did. And she did summer stock and was roommates with Rue McClanahan and Eileen Brennan. They were her really good friends. And she did plays with Tallulah Bankhead and Tony LoBianco. But she was just like an apprentice at a summer stock when she did that.

Those older actors used to do the circuit, right? They'd come out and do like a family-friendly or fun show for a few weeks. Yeah, so she was in those and got reviews for her great legs and won, I think, that she saved that review which was kind of fun to look at. Tallulah Bankhead.

Yeah, yeah. I can't even, like I have no point of reference for her. Like I know a lot of older actresses. Do you? Not really.

I know the name. I know, Tallulah Bankhead. I can't think of one thing that she's in right now at all. That makes me mad at myself but Eileen Brennan, of course,

is one of my heroes. You know, I mean, you have to know her. I think so. And The Last Picture Show. Oh, yeah, of course. Oh, yeah, she's great. The Sting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, she's Private Bench. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's just genius. Is she still around? She's not. But I grew up getting to go see Eileen in a play. We'd go to Chicago because Eileen was in a play there. And we were kids, so my parents would take us to the...

And she's a friend of your mom still? Yes. Well, they remained friends throughout her life. But so that's where I think I fell in love. I knew my mother had been an actress. And then I got to go see Eileen when I was a little girl. And it was so sort of glamorous and romantic to stay up late to have Eileen come visit after her night on stage. And I just idolized her.

So I think that helped me make a decision to become a... Dayton. Dayton, Ohio. It's a real nice way to spend the day in Dayton, Ohio. Randy Newman. Yeah. Yeah. I love that song.

It's a great song. Did your dad do any major architectural masterpieces? No, but my great-grandfather did Frank Hillsmith, the Dayton Art Institute. They're a beautiful building. He built it? He didn't build it, but he helped make that come to fruition. But no, mostly my dad's just commercial real estate nothing artistic there yeah um but um i suppose in the wheeling and dealing of you know contract

i don't know yeah i don't know about it either yeah but it's uh it's a big business they make strip malls and hotels and stuff he did have a he housed a he had a building that he was renting out to someone who had it was an ice skating r. So that's where I got to go skating. So I got skating, free skating, anytime I wanted. And I wanted to become a figure skater. And my mother would get up at 5 in the morning and take me to the rink. Come on. Yeah, I worked on my figures, the compulsory figures that figure skaters do.

They trace figure eights and loops and things. And that came in useful to get yourself an Academy Award. It kind of did. I mean, you know why it did? Only because I knew the world of figure skating. I knew what it took for a mother to get up at that hour and get her daughter to the rink and how expensive things were. I felt like I had enough of a knowledge about it real firsthand that I felt, yeah, I can play that role. So when you were there next to the ice in the rink, like it was familiar.

Yeah, absolutely. How long did you do that for? I only did it for maybe three or four years. And then I had this accident where I went to a play class window. On skates? No. It seems like something that would take some work much better story i was going in for a triple axle and i swung too far i went out of the rain and

threw the play class door of the ring no it was at a party i'll tell you the true story because i don't oh really don't tell everyone this is there a falsehood out there? There is. Okay. I just graduated from high school. Yeah. I went to a very exclusive boarding school in Lakeville, Connecticut called Hotchkiss. Oh, really? My father had gone there. Yeah, prep school. His father went there.

My brothers went there. It was like one of those things. Legacy. And I was like one of the first group of women to go through there. I graduated and they were throwing a party for me at home at a friend's house and and there was a band and and there were parents and kids and and someone had just given me my first quaalude oh good and which may have saved my life because uh here's how i figured that maybe i don't know yeah because i lost three quarters of my blood like i did almost oh my god it was it you know, and we were playing this game where the girls had balloons tied around their ankles and you were in a couple and you tried to pop the other couple's balloons.

Wow. I wish I could say like, oh, of course. No one's ever played that game. Right. And I was cheating. I had a strapless long dress on and I had it tied around my knee, but so no one could pop my balloon. Right. had a strapless long dress on and i had it tied around my knee but so no one could pop my balloon right so the last we were the last two couples and someone was this guy was furiously trying to

step on my dress and it ripped it and it started to fall off and i was like in front of all these people and i picked up my dress and ran to go into the the porch those sliding doors and some of them were open and some weren't and i just crashed into it and the glass like fell on i fell onto my leg which is where i lost um you cut the big one it cut yeah oh yeah my right leg lost less artery tendons it was crazy oh god and i just all i could do is i turned to the band what's right there and they're all like their jaws on the floor and i'm like and i'm thinking that i just cut my finger and i'm just saying keep playing keep playing keep playing i'm so embarrassed that I've stopped the party guy please keep playing and then I turned around and I looked at everyone in the party just staring at me and it

was like slow motion and I thought okay uh okay this is a movie and I'm gonna scream and I'm gonna faint and I'm gonna die and I remember thinking that and so I screamed and I remember falling and and I remember just seeing a lot of people's faces come in over the top of my head, like seeing people with drinks and cigarettes looking over to look at my face. And like it was the weirdest thing. And then the hospital people came, the ambulance. There's blood all over. There's blood all over. I lost three quarters of my blood.

Oh, my God. It was crazy. It was a crazy accident that happened to me in my life i was in the hospital for seven weeks i missed my first year of of college i just took had to take a year off to to and again this this this helped you do uh the film margaret oh yeah see life into art yep exactly god exactly. God, did I talk about... Yeah, that was... Yeah, for that fucking one scene...

That was insane. Kenny Lonergan is one of my favorite writers on the planet. I laid in a pool of blood on Broadway and 74th Street for the whole day. Because I was covered in blood and they were like, well, we're going to take a break. Do you want to... And I was like, what am I going to do? Go to Crafty?

And I'm like, I can't. I'm just going to stay here. Just give me a pillow. Stay there with a Teamster. And I lay on Broadway for the whole day. With your fake leg, like over a few feet away? Yeah, exactly. That scene was so fucking leveling.

Oh, my. That movie. Yeah, that scene was. And that's Kenny. Kenny directed me. And I didn't know what to do. I had no idea. Like, how do you? And he was like, be mad was, and that's Kenny. Kenny directed me in the, I didn't know what to do. I had no idea. Like, how do you, and he was like, be mad now.

Be, be the, he just kept giving me different things to be. Oh, for each piece? Just, just giving me different directions. Because he, I think in his mind that that experience must be very, like, you're obviously disorienting, but. Dying. Dying. Yeah. Yeah. More than that, I don'tying. Dying. Yeah. Yeah.

More than that, I don't know. I just know that his direction helped me. Don't, yeah, no, no. Be mad now and be... But did you have, with the same lines or was it with the, were you improvising? Okay. No, same lines.

Okay, so you just do different takes. Yeah, I'm not a great improviser, except for maybe at the end of scenes, I'll come up with something to say in the silence. If they let the camera keep rolling, then I'm like, I'll come up with something to say in the silence. If they let the camera keep rolling, then I'm like, I'll come up with something. A button. Yeah.

Yeah. I love a good button. But that scene sort of like is the whole movie. The whole movie is built around you getting hit by a bus. Which is exactly what Kenny told me when he said, when he tried to get me to come from LA to do it. And he said, it's just this get me to come from LA to do it. And he said, it's just this,

it's a really pivotal scene. It's one scene, but, you know, it will never get cut. You were in the movie and that's what the whole movie is about. It focuses on that incident.

So it's really important to me. Please come do it. And I said, I will do it. I will do it for you. Did you like the movie? I love mine. It's incredible.

It really is. It's a masterpiece. It really is. A post a masterpiece. It really is. A post, the first post 9-11, you know, masterpiece, I think. Yeah. And, you know, I talked to him about it and I don't know which version I saw because now I'm thinking like I just spent two and a half, three hours and I might have watched the wrong version.

Watched the short version. Yeah. I don't know if I've seen the uncut version actually. But I thought everyone was so fucking good. The uncut version, yeah. I don't know if I've seen the uncut version, actually. But I thought everyone was so fucking good. And the other woman who plays your friend, now I'm forgetting her name, Elaine May's daughter.

Oh, you're talking about Jeannie Berlin. Exactly. Yes. And J. Smith Cameron, who's Kenny's wife. Yeah. She's brilliant. She's great. I love her.

But you didn't get to work with them because you're dead. No, right. Everybody's talking about you, but you're dead. Yes. You're long gone. Yep. Dead. Yep. But you didn't get to work with them because you're dead. No, right. Everybody's talking about you, but you're dead. You're long gone. Yep. Dead. Yep. But a great movie.

So you go through a plate glass window. Do you almost die? Yeah. Is that what happens? Yeah. Three quarters of your blood. Three quarters of your blood. Did you see like...

I just know that in the ambulance, I was really irritated because they kept slapping my face. Stay awake. Stay awake. They didn't want me to slip into into a coma so they kept asking me all these stupid questions but i didn't tell them i had a quaalude oh i didn't tell them they see how deep shame runs i i was so your life could have hinged on it but i didn't tell them you want to cop to it is this first time you really talked about that the quaalude was involved uh i'm sorry yeah i think it is oh well good how does it feel do you feel like a burden has been lifted do you not really i mean i i don't know i i wish there were more i would kind of like to try one without going

through a play class window but my you know i don't think it's the reason i went through the play this one i think it may have i don't know kept you loose yeah yeah could have been worse maybe it sounds like it was pretty bad it was pretty maybe the clay would stop you from cutting your neck open but if you want to look at it that way but it doesn't sound like it got off easy no i kind of want to let's do our like a jaws thing here and compare scars. There's my scar here. See, it goes like this and it went all the way down and cut across here and cut the tendons. And so my foot, I can't lift up my toes on that foot. Oh, now?

Yeah, my foot's really fucked up. So that's what got us there is the end of your figure skating career. The end of my figure skating career was that. And then, yeah, and then I went to Kenyon. And my freshman year at Kenyon College, that's when, you know, they had built this beautiful new thrust stage theater called the Bolton Theater. Yeah. And they had Paul Newman, who was a graduate of Kenyon. He was coming back to direct the first play in the new theater. And you were a freshman?

And I was a freshman. And I got in that production. And I got to be, I mean, there were just chorus girl parts for the women in that yeah it was called cc pile and the bunion derby why that play it was a new play that was they that michael christopher who had just won the pulitzer prize for shadow box yeah he wrote this play for paul to direct because paul and michael christopher and joanneward, they're all friends. So they asked Michael. Hanging around? Yeah, sure, sure.

And so they asked Michael to write this play and he did and it was the only production ever done at Kenyon and I got cast in it and started a friendship

with Joanne and Paul. As an 18, 19 year old? Yeah. It was pretty great. They took to you? Yeah, they were. Paul said, if you ever need a favor, you let me know. He said, As an 18, 19-year-old? Yeah. It was pretty great. They took to you? Yeah. Paul said, if you ever need a favor, you let me know. He said, it has to be very specific, so don't waste it.

But if you have a favor, I want to help you out. And I never asked him for it because I kept judging my favors. I was like, that's not a good enough one. Oh, really? What were some of the options? I don't know. I don't even know. Can you get me an acting career? It took me forever, you know?

I was like, I didn't start working until I was 38. So I had a lot of years in New York where I was just doing, you know. 38? Yeah. Yeah. So wait, no. So you're dealing with Paul Newman in what year is that? That's 80, no, 78, 79, somewhere there.

Wow. So like, he was still like, it was sort of the new uh you know older paul newman doing movies like around it was that around the time of the verdict maybe yeah what a great movie yeah but what kind of guy was that guy oh he was extraordinary he was so he was a i love to watch the way he directed because he loved actors. He loved talking about acting. He did. Yeah.

He really loved the whole process. He loved directing. He would sit and he would watch a scene going on and then he wouldn't direct from out in the auditorium. He'd get up on the stage and put his arm around whoever he wanted to talk to and give a note to. And so it became this private relationship you'd have with Paul. And I kind of loved it as an actor, too. Like, I don't want to know what you're being told to do if I'm doing a scene with you, Mark. And it's kind of cool to not know what the director told you to do and see how it affects me.

And he just, he was, he really, I just was impressed by how much he loved actors and acting. Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking of a moment I had. I don't, I'm new to really sort of. You're great in Glow. Thank you very much. You really are. I love the show.

Chris Lowell's a friend of mine. Oh, yeah. And I think the show's amazing. Well, thank you. I think you're a really good actor. I appreciate that. You know, I think if it's in my wheelhouse, I can do it. But here's what happened.

To just talk to your story, which is better, but in terms of not knowing what the director is directing other actors to do, is I did a very short walk and talk scene with Robert De Niro in this new Joker movie. Okay. I'm going at it with De Niro and it's cut. And then I see De Niro walk over to Todd. Uh-oh. And I'm like, oh.

cut and then i see de niro walk over the todd oh and i'm like oh and todd todd comes up to me goes hey man like like i didn't see him talking to deer it goes you're coming in a little hot i'm like okay okay yeah okay i'll take it down i'll take it down yeah a little jacked up i guess uh i mean but you'd hope that the director would if the director wanted you to do that, he would do that. But I understand him going that route. No, that's the right route. That's the right route. But that's the right editing.

Yeah. I've seen that before, too. Yeah. When I'm at NSC and I see someone going to the director and I'm like, my cackles go up. I'm like, what the? You know, Brad Whitford always says this funny thing. He says, when an actor gets a note, the first thing he thinks is, fuck you. Yeah, right.

And then it's like, I suck. Yeah. And then the third thought is, how can I please you? How can I make you happy? You guys worked together forever. Yeah, well, I keep thinking it was seven years. Maybe West Wing was six years. I can't even remember anymore. It feels like it was on my entire life.

Oh, my God. I did. I mean, if I added up all my personal time in those six or seven years i i probably had an hour of free time i mean those hours were i mean do you have them on glow do you have those hours crazy 12 13 hours we're not we're i mean they usually make their days give or take an hour so like you know we're not going much over 12 hours but you know some days yeah and you're dealing with a lot of people when you have the big cast thing and everyone's got to be there even if it's just to go can i leave you know even if it's one line you're still there oh when we were in the we call it the awful

office because it was just you would be in there for hours and it was the trick was to place yourself in the scene where you'd have to be up to be in the least amount of coverage and that became the game that choice it, well, if you justified your care. No, I think that CJ would be standing here because she needs to be close to the door in case there's an emergency. Whatever. In case CJ, in case Allison needs to go home early. Because Allison has a party she wants to go to.

She has a plane she has to catch. Oh, Dulé was really good at that. Dulé Hill was really good at placing himself to get out of a scene. Oh, my God. Just that you're like five feet away from all the other actors. There's no reason

for like an over the other person shot. No overs. I'm alone over here. You don't tie me. I'm not tied into anyone. You're free to go or you know,

shoot around. Didn't the director ever come in and go like, why is everyone standing against the wall but 38 so wait so you now your relationship with with paul yeah and well joanne but you went through all four years at kenyon i did and you stayed in theater you but you got what a liberal arts degree theater history major but but you were doing the acting but that you couldn't major in it as an undergrad no right no and then did you do graduate no well

i went to the neighborhood playhouse in new york in new york which is not a just an acting two-year acting program that joanne woodward had gone to and she said you should come to new york and go to the neighborhood playhouse so i ended up going going there, but not because I filled out. I don't know what my deal is, but I didn't fill out the application. My friend Allison filled out my application for the playhouse and sent it in. And so I got a letter saying I was accepted and I didn't apply. So things like that have happened in my life when people do things for me because they know that I'm a procrastinator and I'm lazy.

Was it procrastinating or were you just sort of like you did? I was probably a little fear. I was probably afraid to go to New York and try to be an actor. From Ohio? Yeah, I didn't think I would. I just didn't think. I didn't know what I was going to do. Were you keeping in touch with them throughout college? This is pre-email, like with the Newmans. No. I mean, after that play was a pretty big thing for all of us, and we spent a lot of time with them. What did you learn from him during that, aside from being an intimate director? He's good. I played pool with him.

I got to drive his Datsun 280Z. So you learned how to drive a stick with Paul Newman? No, I had a, actually, that was how I auditioned for the play. And my grandmother had just given me a Scirocco. Oh, yeah, the Volkswagen Scirocco. A 1978 Scirocco. I had a navy blue Scirocco stick shift. Were there stripes?

No, just navy blue with a tan interior. Oh, nice, yeah. And I talked about my drive from Dayton, Ohio to Kenyon College and how I could cut off this amount of time if I drove over the speed limit on the stretch and whatever. And I thought I was appealing to, I knew he was a race car driver and I thought this was...

Your Scirocco stories would really charm him. I don't know if that's what it was or if I just had the baby fat of a 1930s, 20s flat. I don't even remember what the... But part of the audition was driving Paul Newman?

No, you just had to tell a story. They just said, get up on stage and tell a story. And you were appealing to his... I was appealing to his race car driving interest and it worked well it did i got cast i don't know if that was it or if it was my my good looks or you know maybe just did a good job acting maybe you had that thing maybe i did but what was his like approach to like talking about actors because like he's sort of a method dude right um i don't know if he's methody methody but um i thought he was this strasburg guy no what do i know i don't know

which one yeah he was i mean group joanne was definitely part of the group yeah theater but i don't know about paul so much um i just know that he liked talking about acting and choices. And I think he was more into the cerebral part of it. Joanne came to it from the Playhouse. So what is that? So you graduate college and you go to New York. You tell your parents, I'm going to New York. I'm going to be at the Playhouse after your friend Allison gets you in. I know.

She gets me in. And I go. And they're like, okay, sure. Yeah. What is that thing? I remember seeing it. What was the actual, what was that playhouse? The playhouse was, it was on 54th Street,

2nd and 3rd, somewhere there, a big red door. Like a town, four-story building. And they taught, Latter Virginia taught elocution and there was breath. There was a little of that breath work. So it was a school. It was a school, yeah. A two-year program.

They had 100 students in the first year and then 24, you know, in the second year. Right. Oh, everyone gets it. Really? There's that big a cut?

There's that big a cut, yeah. Holy shit. And you learned about emotional preparation and you learned about, I mean, there's some things that just are terrible because you learn

to sort of disrespect the word, the written words. Oh, right. Just any script, your script, you sort of, they tell you to throw out, don't worry about the script. It's all about the emotion. Really? Do you think the opposite is true now?

Yeah. But it's learning to work with the emotion. It's a good process to go through to not think of the script. So read it and think what's feeling. Well, like, so you could say a line, like, if the line was, I hate you, you don't necessarily have to say it. Like, I hate you. You could be like, I hate you. You'd be happy. Or you could do it silly.

I mean, it just taught you to just disconnect from the script and have an emotional life aside from it. And then you marry the two later. But it takes you years to come to that, I think. Do you do the action verb thing or the action words for each sentence of the script? What you're trying to do? No. I don't do any of that crap. I don't know what I...

I don't do... I just... Yeah, you've been doing it a long time and you do it. Just in that moment I do it. I don't... And I always feel bad when I see someone's script.

They've got all these things written all over it and I look at mine and there's like absolutely nothing. So you don't even highlight the name well that I started doing just to look like I was like

you know working I remember this is my line and then scribbling something to look like an X and putting arrows and like exclamation

point but I don't I don't know I just know I do it as I feel it rehearse it and then I know

what it is or maybe i don't maybe sometimes i don't even know what i'm doing right i'm doing it yeah and it's working so i don't have to that's what i hate having to talk about what i do after it's like i have no idea right what i'm doing and and this i don't know how to break it apart or tell you i just you did a lot of it and you do a lot of it and you work a lot so i mean it's like eventually you've you it's your job yeah yeah it's my job yeah but but the neighborhood playhouse do they put on shows as well well for the second year students you do to showcase to you know get agents to to be to come and is that what you did i did i didn't get an agent out of it though really yeah i think i was just i was too tall and too not pretty enough to be um um an ingenue too weird like i had to cry to get older before i started

working but wait so what did you do from age 22 to 38 or whatever oh god i mean like you're telling me really that you didn't you didn't well i did. Well, honey, sweetheart. It's okay. Baby. Yeah, all of those. What's your name again? Mark. Mark. Yeah, I'm talking to you. I did. I did. I did. Okay, let me tell you.

I scooped ice cream on Spring Street. I worked as a nighttime receptionist at a recording studio, which I say, which I actually was a drug dealer there because I didn't know it, but I say, which I actually was a drug dealer there because I didn't know it, but I was dropping things off for the nighttime session musicians. Like, oh, Mr. So-and-so, here, this came for you. Is there a Mr. So-and-so? Are you hiding someone's name?

Yes, I'm hiding someone's name. I'll tell you after because you'll probably know. I don't know. Any of them. But it was kind of crazy to realize that. And I didn't tell my parents that of course and then i was they know about the quaalude they don't oh good well i'm glad you're telling me and they're just down the street wherever they are they're not gonna listen to

this no probably not my dad hasn't so why were you serious yeah really yeah and not one of the 900 and come on i mean he's just lying to you maybe he is that's true maybe he is does he that kind of guy would he be is he secretly proud of you he's like no he's he's proud of me i think yeah no he's definitely proud of me i don't know what he's doing like you know you talk about your dad playing guitar my dad sits around going like i just don't want to do anything like he just he's got all this time on his hands but he can't figure out one fucking thing to do except complain about not wanting to do anything what did he do for his life a surgeon he was a surgeon he was a surgeon god couldn't he like knit or something or i don't know if that'll do it

he retired he tried a lot of weird things he became a postman for a while because he thought i don't think he had some weird idea that he would be socializing with people as a mailman and then then he worked at walmart for a minute but how old is he is he like my just turned 80 oh he's younger than my folks are five years older than so he needs to be doing something yeah i don't i don't know get him a guitar does he play i mean it's just it. You know, he sits around. He does like weird research online. He watches the wrong kind of television. You know, he, yeah. What's the wrong kind of television?

Fox. He watches Fox. Oh, the wrong kind of television. But he's never been, he doesn't know much about politics, but I think he likes the anger of it and the focus of the personalities. And he tends to think it's real news. And then he gets on the phone with me and starts talking doing fox talking points and i'm like i'm not even going to do this with you because you don't know what you're saying and then i'll explain to him that there are three branches of government and that there's a legislative branch and a judy and then he's

like okay maybe you're right i don't really know what i'm talking about but your mom what's her she's in florida she's all right sure so they're down there when your dad is yeah he's in new mexico in albuquerque where i grew up yeah they're yeah we're all everyone's better off that he's got uh his life there and his wife and we're all very grateful that she's has him covered okay okay copy that copy that but that worries me i can't want to think about your dad just sitting there and it's like his hobby is complaining you know that's what he does

you know he that's his thing worrying and complaining I feel like I'm this close to that really I don't want to go I don't want to go

to Mark Martin's pod yeah I know where is it where is it what time can we do it earlier Phil Rosenthal has a goose

no I was really excited about coming to talk to you although intimidated because of all your you know Anna Faris said you didn't want to do it

well she'll she said that because she no it's not entirely false I didn't want to do it because I didn't because I was intimidated

and didn't as I said I didn't want to I'm like a better listener and I feel like I don't have it well whatever I don't want to go down the self-pity thing i was intimidated really come on why i was the allison jannie's coming over and uh like i don't know all i know is what i know

from watching you work i didn't know which character you would be when you came here and most of them were scary. You're like, which one is she really? Because there's a few that I really don't think I could talk to. Oh, my God. You're right. Okay, I get that. I get that.

I get that. But I hate when people think that they're going to be talking to CJ and I'm not that thing. But somehow or another, you've managed to transcend that, which is impossible. I imagine there's plenty of people that still see you as her, but I didn't watch the West Wing. I'm one of those people. So, like, to me, you've always been that actress. Yeah. And then at some point, you were like, that's Allison Janney.

She's amazing. But for about a decade, you were that, oh, that lady. That lady from the, that tall lady from the. From American Beauty. And I remember seeing her in Little Things right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah that's right. Martin Sheen calls me

the big lady. Oh really? He was terrible with names and he knows my name now but he would call me the big lady. How did you teach him your name?

By walking up going Allison. I called him Pumpkinhead until he learned until he said my name. I know it was a great show but I don't know what years were that

because I was probably not watching television. I think it was 2000 to 2006. Yeah, but I don't know what years were that because I was probably not watching television. I think it was 2000 to 2006. Yeah, no, I don't know what I was doing, but TV wasn't part of it. That's all right. Yeah, I was busy

trying to be a comedian. A lot of people are coming to it now because it's so great. Relevant. It's an antidote to what's going on now. Can we have that one?

Why can't Martin Sheeby be president? Why can't he? Oh, God. What a mess. Oh, my God. So, all right. So, you're scooping ice cream.

You're a drug middleman. Yep. Middlewoman. And I'm in a lot of theater companies. That was big. Big theater companies. The Red Earth Ensemble. Yeah.

The Facts. In New York. The Shadow Facts Company. And then Joanne started the group, the Actors Group of New York, otherwise known as Agony. We had that. So we just did plays and tried to get people to come see them, tried to get agents to come see them. And I had, you know, my terrible agent stories where people had said, you're too, you're not pretty, you're too tall. What are we going to do with you?

Aliens and lesbians and all that kind of stuff I had. Aliens and lesbians, those are the options? Yep. Wow. Apparently. And I just stuck it out. And all that kind of stuff I had. Aliens and lesbians, those are the options? Yep. Wow. That's apparently. And I just stuck it out. I just, you know, I went to the Johnson O'Connor Institute to do aptitude tests to figure out what else I could do because nothing was happening for me. And what came out? Figure skater?

No. Well, a systems analyst. Hmm. What does that even mean? Well. What do they do? well I a systems analyst hmm what does that even mean well what do they do well this is my

my understanding is that there someone someone hires them they go into a company and go oh I see this is what's wrong you need to do this

move this person over here so they see what's wrong and fix it fixers I guess so you got the control freak diagnosed

no I feel like they didn't know what to do with me. They looked at, I envision people in a room that were like, what are we going to tell her? I don't know. Cause I just,

I can't imagine. I can't do anything. Tell her she'll be, that's easy systems now. It's like vague. Yeah. And I, I didn't,

I don't know. And then I, I think the next day I got a job understanding Kate Nelligan and Faith Prince and Terrence McNally's bad habits at, at the Manhattan Theater Club. And that was a huge thing for me to get. That was your first job? That was my first job after I was going to quit for the last time. I was really going to go. And these theater companies, did you come across people that you now know that are big actors? Because I know there

were people that had theater companies. I don't think a lot of people went on to do it huh um it's tough tough tough long haul tough racket i would if i were something else i could have done i would have done it yeah yeah isn't it weird when you're possessed by something and then you know it's too late to do anything yeah what are we gonna he's just like you come up blank where you're like i could always oh no it's too late i know i'm buying i'm at that age now where i just realized oh yeah i'm i'm there's nothing else uh well even at 38 it was like wow uh that's scary that anymore so what what was the big break outside of being kate melligan's understudy? I got to say, okay, getting my first Broadway show was Present Laughter with Frank Langella

that I did at the Walter Kerr Theater. Oh, that's big. Which is where Springsteen was doing his show, which was so cool for me to think. But anyway, that's where I had my Broadway debut, in that theater. Frank Langella? Frank Langella.

He's a powerhouse. Yeah, he is. I had my Broadway debut in that theater. Frank Langella? Frank Langella. He's a powerhouse. Yeah, he is. I was terrified of him. Terrified, convinced I was going to get fired every day of rehearsal. I was... It was just the two of you? No, it was a big cast. But I had to play his ex-wife and we're the lead relationship in the play.

And I was so terrified of him. And since, you know, I got through that awful, awful phase. But it was really, and my younger brother Hal was the one who saved me with that because he brought up that movie, Gene Hackman, The Hoosiers. You know, when they take the small town team to the big town. It's like, look, it's the same size basketball court. measurements same relationship to that and my brother was like that's all it is just because it's broadway doesn't you know it's the same relationship if you got an audience you got a stage you did and it did it did kind of work calm me down help me help me get over the

the bad part of it and once that once i was out there you forget how much the audience as much as i'm afraid of them, they really bring a lot to, you know, booing you up, like feeling like you got... Sure. Oh, yeah. It's like that's what you do it for. Yeah. Like, you know, like I imagine after a week

when you're actually doing the run, you're like, holy shit. Yeah. This is the way I wanted to do this. Yeah. It was kind of fun. I wish it had been fun going back to Broadway. I went to do Six Degrees of Separation last, or 2017, in the spring of 2017.

Yeah, no good? No, it was just, I had stage fright, like crazy. I was like, no, no, no, no. What? I haven't come all this way to have this bullshit. No, this is terrible. It was really, it was just, no, I hated it. I'm laughing at some of that.

Do you know Harper? David, the actor from Stranger Things. You know, yeah. It was just that moment where he would, we were talking about when you're about to go on stage and you're freaked out. Yeah. And you've done it a million times,

but for some reason there's that moment where you don't think you know any of it. He just had this moment where he's like, he's like two lines away from his entrance and he goes, somebody give me a script. I have lived that. I have lived that moment.

I have many times. Oh, it's horrifying. It's terrifying. When I had to go on for Kate Nelligan in Bad Habits, I actually had to go on. You did?

And the show starts with a big crack of thunder and lightning effect. Yeah. And I have to walk out on stage in that thunder and lightning. And the thunder goes and I'm like, what's my first line? What's my first line? And I'm screaming like I literally didn't know and I had to walk out. I'm like, I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is.

And the lights came up and it was there. It came out. It just came out. But I was. The out. I'm like, I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. And the lights came up. And it was there. It came out. It just came out. But I was. It's the worst. Oh, my God. Because that's the one that you need to get in. Yeah.

If you don't have that, you can't get in. Oh, my God. Why did we do it? It's terrifying. Awful, awful, awful. I felt like, I mean, not to bring up politics, because I don't want to talk about it. Yeah. But that meeting with Pelosi and Schumer and Pence and Trump, when Pence is sitting there, I was like, that is my actor's nightmare right there.

It's like, I'm in a play, but I forget where my lines are. I don't even know if I'm in the scene, but I'm out here on stage. It just embodied everything that I fear about being on stage and not knowing. It's terrible. Now I'm worried about you making it to the goose party. What time is it? It's 4.30 already. It's 4.30.

That's fine. Okay. No, I'm... We got a little time. My goose party is... Yeah, but I don't have to be there at five. Okay, all right. Because I feel like...

Okay, so... No, please. I'm not freaking out. So you do theater and then like you. I got a soap opera, The Guiding Light. That was a huge thing for me to get in terms of paying my own rent. Right. Because my parents have helped me along the way this whole time.

Right, sure. I'm very fortunate to have had their help. Even though my father would be, you know, quite concerned and say, I think you might want to get a job. Yeah. Maybe you should be a systems analyst or something. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I think I didn't even tell them that outcome.

Because they would have went, that sounds funny now. But, so yeah, I was Ginger, this maid on The Guiding Light, and they paid me very well. You did a lot of episodes? Yeah, I did. I think I, I always forget, I think I did it for a year. It's like a crash course in weird TV, because they do, you just shoot like a hundred of episodes? Yeah, I did. I think I, I always forget. I think I did it for a year. It's like a crash course in weird TV because they do, you just shoot like a hundred of them, right?

Yeah. Or, I don't know. Didn't they, didn't they, it didn't, didn't it, like my impression was they shoot quickly. They did. They broke down the day in terms of you were either shot in the afternoon or the evening or the morning or the afternoon. They do like an episode in a day, right? And it was, it was great.

It was very fast. Yeah. And I, and i i i loved it it was kind of fun do people know you from that uh no well some maybe some ladies people out there but no i've never had anyone say oh my god ginger on the guiding light no one ever recognized me from that but um and then uh shortly after that i did you know will Williamstown Theater Festival introduced me to a lot of people. That's where I think I made a lot of connections that paid off later. And Stanley Tucci and I, we got cast in this play with Naked Angels called Fat Men in Skirts. It's a Nikki Silver play. Really crazy, crazy play.

Yeah. In it, I get, you know, it's a plane crash and we start off on an island. We've crashed our planes, crashed on an island with my son. The end of the first act, my son is sodomizing me. Then I'm like going back crazy from the island. It's one of the, but it's hilarious. Sounds funny. from the island.

It's one of the, but it's hilarious. Sounds funny. It's really crazy and funny. But Stanley was in that with me and then he wrote this movie called Big Night. Yeah, I saw that movie. And he said, hey,

will you come, you know, be in this movie? Yeah. So that was kind of a cool thing. Yeah. And then Mike Nichols saw me in that production of Fat Man in Skirts. he put me in um primary colors which was a huge movie for me because i got to do that big pratfall down the stairs and be um and i know that's where aaron

sorkin saw that movie and wanted to see me for cj on the west so those were the primary ones those were kind of big things that that happened that introduced me to people who? Who ended up so you didn't do a lot of bit parts in TV there too, or you did a few I did a few I did one on Bill Cosby show And I I don't remember which show it was of his you were still in New York though. I was in New York I was in New York And it was I just was I remember though going in for the part of a nurse and then they changed it to a janitor And then they changed they kept changing my part around.

I never saw it. I have no idea. So I did that little part. I did the soap opera. I did not too much, mostly theater, all theater things. So you were like, and did you actually do a Prairie Home Companion? Oh, yeah. I did that a lot.

And was that like a regular gig? Did you have to live in Minnesota or you'd go knock them out? No, I took that job because I was afraid of flying. And I thought, I didn't want, I told myself I would never let my fear of flying get in the way of taking a job. And so I got auditioned for the Prairie Home Companion and I got the part. And it meant that I would have to fly every Friday to Minnesota and we would tape the show on Saturday and I'd fly back Sunday okay I had to do that but I had a my brother my younger brother

lived in in st. Paul so I got to go see him so I looked at it as an opportunity to see him and also just get over my fear of flying. So I did it and I had a great time working with Garrison. He's a very eccentric, odd, brilliant man. And I had a lot of fun with everyone who worked on that. It sounded fun. I would listen to it sometimes because I just have NPR on when I was living in New York. And it was like, it seemed a little like oddly. I just, I would just listen to it, but it didn't seem like it was really geared towards me but I enjoyed it. It was kind of hokey a little

but in a comforting way. Guy Noir. Yeah Guy Noir I loved doing those skits with him doing all those places. Were you the lady on Guy Noir? In some of them yeah not all of them but there was a season where I was I played the lady in that and I did the joke episodes with him and and he had some cool people working for him there was this one guy I episodes with him and and um he had some cool people working for him there was this one guy I wish I could remember his name he had really long hair and he would drive the trucks and he would go to wherever Garrison was going ahead of time to to hang out in the local bars and find out all the local stories oh really so the research no research and then he'd give it to Garrison who would write these unbelievable model I mean he

never he would just go out and talk he wouldn't't have a script or anything. Oh, really? He didn't have a teleprompter. He would just go out on stage and just talk. Huh. For, it was kind of extraordinary. Yeah, yeah. What he could do. Did he get into a little trouble?

I don't know. Oh. I can't remember. I feel like he, I don't know. Yeah. Now that you're saying that, I'm going. I wonder. But you didn't have any problem.

No, not at all. Nice guy. No, he was lovely and I enjoyed doing that show a lot so after those movies though like i think the first time that like i really registered you was in the ice storm oh yeah i love the movie because it was it was my parents generation that they were coming of age as young parents in that time did your parents do key parties i don don't know, but they were, I feel like there might have been some swinging. I don't know, I'm not sure,

but like looking at some of the pictures of them in the 60s, I was sort of like, hmm. Why are they? I don't know your parents, but I feel like looking at you, I would think that of your parents more than my parents. Right.

There's a lot of pictures of my mom and some swinging garments, my dad in some Nehru collars. All right. Yeah, maybe. Not my parents. They were very, no. No?

That wasn't their bag? No. But that was like a big movie. Yeah, it was cool. It was a really good movie to be part of, and I remember, and you know what else was, when did

okay um american beauty and ice storm when did those 99 and 1999 american beauty ice storm 97 so you must have done it like a year after i guess so i i think maybe being in that ice storm was helpful to get in well alan ball is the one who got me into um see this is another theater connection because i did his play six thought no five women wearing the same dress at manhattan helpful to get in. Well, Alan Ball is the one who got me into, see, this is another theater connection because I did his play, Five Women Wearing the Same Dress at Manhattan Class Company in New York, and Alan wrote that,

and he had me come in and read for Sam for American Beauty. And then I got that. That part's so disturbing. I know. What music were you playing for that role before you went on? I don't remember.

Actually, you know, it's weird. I remember sitting there in that dining room and just staring. And I thought, wouldn't it be fun to think of the best sex you've ever had? Yeah. And I kind of thought about that. But you didn't tell your face? No. But it's just like...

Longing. Longing. Something longing or something missing. Just, I don't know. Oh, my God. It's just like, it's horrifying. It was sad character. Yeah, very.

I figured she was on the wrong dose of medication, too. Oh, that's what you're thinking? That's what I thought. Yeah, yeah, that's what it seemed like. She just would be a little anesthetized. And The Hours? That's a big movie for big actors. That was good. That was one movie. Aaron let me

go do that while I was doing West Wing. I was the only actor of the main group that wasn't in all of the episodes. Because he let me go do The Hours. With Meryl and London. And that was pretty exciting to be part of that and be with her and get to do a

kissing scene with her and be like you know, be her girlfriend. It was crazy. And she was so much fun, which I loved about her. She was so not like this up on a pedestal and all that. She was just a girl. She just wanted to have fun. She liked to have fun.

And I remember, oh, my God, where we were staying in some Hyde Park Hotel. I don't remember, but it was a small little boutique hotel. And I think I think it was John Cleese who was in the other. We were in the bar area and he was in the dining room. And I think she wanted to go say hi, but she didn't know if he would remember her. And I was like, Meryl, of course he would know who you are. Go say hello. And she comes back just absolutely dejected that she said she did her best sort of drive-by where she just sort of walked through, floated through, and looked in his general direction and then didn't have the right eye contact and kept walking.

And it was just so. John was probably just being a dick probably i don't know but i just have made me love her even more that she was like seriously you think he's not gonna just go say hello to him yeah but she i know that's so funny that guy her to me i've talked to him he's a good guy yeah i know i listened to your podcast with him yeah so but i i guess that juno too like that really puts you on a bigger map. I know West Wing did, but as a film actress, like, starting to kind of, like, get away from the TV thing a little more, right? Yeah.

I was glad that I had the opportunity to be, to have those. Because I think a lot of people knew my work beforehand as a, you know, on stage and theater and other things. And Drop Dead Gorgeous was a movie that a lot of people are, like, huge fans of, cult fans of that movie. And that was a crazy character I played. So anyone who was doing research, people just knew that the CJ wasn't the only thing I had in my pocket. That's a relief. Even though that was my introduction to the world. I mean, it became, a lot of people don't want to give her up.

What's your relationship with Sorkin? Sorkin, I love him. I wish I could work with him again. I don't know. You will. Familiarity breeds contempt sometimes. Did you do that Studio 60 thing? I did.

I got to be myself. I was one of the guest hosts. And so, let's just get to winning an Oscar that was exciting to watch wow could you believe it how much

did you like did you think it was going to happen no I I love my friend Steven Rogers who wrote I, Tonya

and he told me about it when he was writing the part way back before he even finished the script he said I'm writing a part and you get to wear a fur coat and have a bird on your shoulder.

And I was like, okay, sounds like a winner. You know, can't wait. And then they were trying to figure out, they decided they were going to do it whenever we did it. And I was doing Mom and I was rehearsing for my Broadway play I was doing. The Six Degrees?

Yeah. And I was like, I can't, I don't have time to do this movie. And Stephen's like, we're not doing it without you. So we're making it. I said, I don't, I honestly don't know if it's going to work. So the producers of Mom, the producers of Six Degrees of Separation and the producers of I, Tonya all figured it out. But it was, it was a real that was a kind of yeah and then to find out I didn't think for I mean you don't I think that's the best way to go into a role not like I'm doing this role because I'm going to win an Oscar for right um I don't know how many people can do that or who have done that but I certainly didn't take it because of that I took it because of as my

friend Steven who wrote it and it was a great script and a great town it's that but um i certainly didn't take it because of that i took it because of as my friend steven wrote it and it was a great script and great tone it's really great god he's so he nailed that and which one was he he's the director oh okay yeah he just did a fantastic job um so i was i i didn't know that was going to come of it and then it started slowly building the the word of mouth and then then getting nominated for things and and every time i'd win something i thought well i'm not going to win the next thing you know it just kept the pressure building and because i because because of who i'm up against you know laurie metcalf is one of my favorite actors of all time i've never but i know her i've met her in passing i just love her so much so i was i i just and octavia who's my dear friend i love and um i i just you know

mary j blige i there were so many i so when when it was that night and i was waiting to hear my name it was more of when they said it it was more like oh my god it was more of a relief that i didn't get to that point and and lose because I had won you know it was just there was so much pressure and so many people watching I felt so so many people's shoulders and eyes on me but wanting me to win yeah and it was more like oh my god thank fucking god oh thank god thank god thank god yeah and then getting up there I was just like I felt somewhat just very calm and like, I was just, it's a lot to go through one of those campaigns. I've never done anything like that. Yeah, it's crazy.

And the line that my friend Nick Bacai gave me to say, you know, I did it all by myself, was so fun to say because it was so, I mean, you know, I memorized the lines and I said them. He's a funny guy. How do you know him? Nick and I were in college together. We went to Kenyon College together. No kidding. Because he was involved with the first comedy channel

like a million years ago if I'm not mistaken. That sounds right. Well, he's one of our showrunners on Mom. Right, that's it. And with Gemma Baker and Nick is fantastic.

I love him. We did plays together. That's cool. Well, so there you go. That's a guy you've known forever. Yeah. And the movie was, I thought the movie was great.

And you dedicated the Oscar to your brother. Yeah. He had passed away? Yeah. Well, he took his own life. Oh. Yeah.

He was suffering probably a lot of mental issues, substance abuse. Yeah. For his whole life? I would say pretty much at least most of his adult, young adult life. I mean, he died when he was 49, so I would say most of his mid-30s on. The struggle just got him. Oh, yeah. He was in and out of places, and we kept trying to get him to, as my father said, he just couldn't find a place to land.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was really sad. Is that something that's in your family? Mental, there's a lot of- Mental addiction things? A lot of, yeah. I would say there's some lot of mental addiction a lot of things yeah i would say there's a

there's some pathology yeah there um on both sides i would say yeah so yeah i think he just um i wish he had gotten the right help yeah and just it's been going on for years yeah yeah well i'm sorry to hear that i know me too is that and that was that some like some of the impetus for doing a show like mom yeah i felt like i want i is like it was a world that i felt that i wanted to be part of telling you know whatever i could do to destigmatize to normalize normalize it and show people not just you know the dramatic parts of of getting sober but people who actually are are living in recovery and having and hilarious and hilarious and having fun it just that felt like an important

story for me to tell and i wanted to because of my because of my brother i feel like there are other ways i should be honoring him too but i um i think that's a good way good way yeah i mean like uh you know i've been i've been in the rooms for 19 years, and there's a depth of humor and wisdom there that because of the language of recovery and because of the nature of people's personal stories in those rooms, you're laughing at stuff that's pretty fucking dark. Yeah. And it's pretty beautiful. I wish that he had found that in the rooms the rooms he just was like i can't go to another fucking church basement oh yeah he just resisted he did not like the community he didn't like going to meetings he didn't he he i don't know i wait i don't know the compulsion was too

strong do i guess is that what it is well i think like you know everybody resists it at first and it's just like they're either you're going to have that moment where you know you've you've you've really run out of ideas right so and then all of a sudden you realize like well i can make this my own there's there's obviously help here and you know and there's no rules necessarily right so it's just a matter of like understanding the things for yourself and realizing like you know getting past the way the 12 steps look on a wall as being these weird god-oriented things and sort of integrating them you know understanding powerlessness right i mean that that that's the whole trick i don't think he got that and i I didn't. The God thing always. Yeah. But you can just remove that.

I think. No, I feel like he had enough people telling him that, but he just didn't. Yeah. It's hard. I get it. I think. Yeah. And there's like, there's nothing anyone can do after a certain point.

No. You know? And yeah. I mean, the powerless thing is it's, it's, it's like, I don't know. Like the disease is strong, you know? Yeah. I've been in a lot of the uh alan on meetings and i love going to those but i even get self-conscious thinking

does someone do people think i'm here because of my show or what you know like i'm researching i get in bad feel bad thinking people will think that and then i went to one meeting where someone came up to me and said just so you know you, you're not safe here. So be careful what you say. And I was like, copy that. And then I even stopped. I should be in those rooms every day. I'm like the classic Al-Anon person every way. Codependency is a rough game, you know, because it's so fucking heartbreaking yeah you know to have to learn how to do that if you don't have the the boundaries or you know you're not like that that's sort of like the

idea of detaching but caring is a tricky i know oh it's like it's it's yeah it's hard breaking thing to because i think one of the last things we were just trying to get my brother to, we were, oh, I don't even want to, it's, it's detached. It's this detachment part and cutting off from finances and things because

Enabling. Trying to, yeah, I'm trying not to enable. Yeah, yeah. And just wanting to enable because I want to,

because that's love to me. Yeah, yeah. Make it feel safe. What do you need? Yeah, how can I? Do you need some Xanax?

I'll go to Laredo. I'll go over the border. Right. I mean, I don't even know what else all was in his system in the end. And I wish I did know. But it was on purpose. Yes. Yeah.

It was very much on purpose. It was very much on purpose. But I think it has working with, to sort of approach that as comedy must be kind of relieving in a way. And Anna's really funny. She's hilarious. And you get to do just like three camera. But it was interesting when I watched it

because I watched a bunch of them when I talked to her. It did not help the conversation. That's way up there with one of the more challenging conversations. We were engaging, and we were deeply engaged, but she wasn't giving me much. Yeah, she holds her cards close to her chest. And I kept pushing. She kept charming me I know

she's like no no no we're not going to talk about that because then I have to talk about it she she

she was hilarious but I liked it I like having that tension it was fun I think the point where I'm talking to her while she's

peeing was I think it was the first that was my favorite thing it was the first. That was my favorite thing. Yeah, it was the first on the show. It was hilarious. She is so hysterical. But I think that even though it's a three camera and even though it's very cleverly written, but it's still a joke-driven show, that there's a depth to it because of the nature of what you're doing.

Yeah, and I'm grateful for that because i don't i mean i know there's there's a lot of we have to serve the the jokes but i i love the the moments that are yeah quiet that we that that are real and yeah there's definitely some real shit in there yeah yeah well i i think you do great work mark i think you do too and i'm now you know i want you to go eat goose with phil rosenthal are you taking your parents how's that, now I see that I was all worried about the logistics of everything because my mom's not good in the car with other people. And so my assistant is driving them. And then your guy.

Yeah. Who you picked. Yeah. Who used to drive me occasionally. It was very nice. Yeah. Wonderful driver. He's going to drop me off at Phil's house right now.

Yeah. I think you can get there by 530. Should I give you the exact address? Would you, Phil? And tell me where the house he bought his parents is. I'd like to know where that is. Where's the house that Phil bought his parents? I'm going to ask him that when I see him.

I don't know. I'm fine with Phil. I hope he's fine with me. Well, he sounded like he was, but I'll find out more. No, no, don't. It's just we go where it's at. All right. Nice talking to you.

Nice talking to you, too. Wow, that was great. What a great time. What a great talk. What a great person. I like her. I love her. I love her.

Is that all right? So, again, Mom is on CBS on Thursday nights. It's in its sixth season. And Troop Zero, Allison's new movie, has its world premiere at Sundance this Friday. I'm going to play my three chords in a slightly different way

than I usually play them again. Okay? So let's do that. My three chords happening now. ¶¶ Boomer lives! Thank you. highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of kids night when the Toronto rock take on the Colorado mammoth at a special 5. PM start time on Saturday, March 9th at first Ontario center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance. We'll get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction. Punch your ticket to kids night on Saturday,

March 9th at 5. PM in rock city at Toronto rock.com.