WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 995 - Mandy Moore

Episode Date: February 18, 2019

Mandy Moore has already gone through several career phases in her young life, from teenage pop star to animated voice artist to dramatic actress. But her latest phase, as matriarch Rebecca Pearson on This Is Us, came after a long period in which she put her career on hold and lost her sense of self. Mandy explains to Marc what it meant to be emotionally locked into a relationship, how that tumultuous time was preceded by a stunning development in her family, and why she finally feels comfortable going back to making music. This episode is sponsored by Stamps.com and 23andMe. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? How's everybody doing?

Are you okay? This is a little these uh these next couple of shows well this show and thursday were uh pre-recorded last week because my uh my business partner and uh genius producer mr brendan mcdonald is taking a well-deserved vacation so. So we had to get these in the can. The only reason I'm bringing it up is because of the Buster Kitten arc. The emergency of his illness is now an arc. Things are better with Buster, and I'll tell you about that. I do want to say this. We have the 1,000th episode coming up. Yeah, that's a lot. It's like almost a decade. And well, okay. So you know I like to read your emails on the air. So I want to hear any questions you might have as we approach this milestone, 1, thousand episodes. Just email me any questions about any of the

thousand episodes of the show or any past guests that you want some follow-up on. You can ask me questions personally, questions about what goes on off the mic and behind the scenes or any advice you think I might be able to dispense. I'm willing to give that a shot. If you want to just talk about your relationship with the show, I would just like to hear from you all in all these different ways, in any way you want. I'm inviting you to go ahead and send that. Send these things to me at wtfpod at gmail.com. And if you could get us the questions by the end of the month, that would be good anything you want to know anything you want to say anything i can maybe tell you

just anything as we head into this big show the thousandth show so did i mention that mandy moore is here today what a charming woman she came with cookies she came with fucking cookies and you know i'm a little uh i've been a little crazy with the diet and i it's funny she brought a box of cookies i didn't even realize what they were i just kind of was like oh my god well fuck yeah why but thank you and then i went after she left i realized they were amara cookies which are healthier and i put them in the freezer and uh gotta be honest with you i had mandy more on like it's been a couple weeks and i only ate two of them and they just you know not even the day of i put them in the freezer as i said and then what you do is you stick them in the warming oven just put an oven like a the

little oven on warm put them in there for five minutes and it's like they're fresh out of the oven and I ate those fuckers the weird thing is that I don't know maybe it's because I'm eating so clean I ate one cookie the next day I felt like I had four beers I was hungover is that is that a thing that happens kind of fucked me up a little bit. A little bit. So Buster Kitten, as you know, the last you heard, unless you're on Twitter, you know, he was in the hospital and it was not looking great. He had the kidney failure. And then I ended up getting an ultrasound and then I ended up getting a cancer test. And then I ended up getting a cancer test. The day of both of those things, his numbers had come down a lot. But the vet that I went to, she was like, yeah, these numbers, they came down, but don't get excited. It's probably just the fluids.

I don't know. So we did these other tests, but it just like was just a bummer. And I was going to leave him there for two more nights because I don't give a fuck about money, apparently, because I love this little cat. And I don't have kids. I don't have a wife. I don't have kids. I don't have a wife. I don't have debt. And I'm not a big spender. So we're going to save a little fucking buster if we can.

That's the way this is going to work. So the next day, I locked into this idea that she was just basically telling me that there's no hope for this cat. And I thought I had been in denial. I was in one of the stages of grief. So that, you know, the day, the morning of the ultrasound and ultimately the genetic cancer test, she calls and she's like, um, these numbers are, they're almost normal now. I don't know. And I'm like, well, what do you mean? Like, I don't know. Uh, they're, they're almost normal. We're going to let him out today and he doesn't have cancer.

So I brought him home. I went down there. I picked him up. I brought him home. I've got kidney food for him. And I've got subcutaneous fluids. I have to skin pop my cat. I got to shoot up my cat in the morning. I got to get an IV drip going into him for a little bit of water, fluids. So that was a new experience. See, we're learning new things. I can, you know, it's funny when you have to do something you've never done like that before and you got to stick a needle into a cat and sit there with it while this fluid drips in. I had to get in the right mindset. I'm more like, it's weird what I learned about my brain is that like I do prepare. I may not write things down, but in my mind, I'm more like it's weird what I learned about my brain is that like I do prepare.

I may not write things down, but in my mind, I'm like, OK, you know, get a plan. You know, you know how to do this. You were shown how to do this. Just do it. Be confident about it. Be, you know, be present and do it. And that's sort of like I do that a lot and I don't really realize it. I don't know if that's preparedness, but but like I got to get myself psyched up.

I guess everybody does where I'm like, you know, don't doubt yourself. Just do it. Just put the needle in. If something fucks up, it fucks up. You're not going to kill the cat unless, you know, you do something insanely stupid, like jam it into his skull. So I gave him the fluids, but he's eating like mad because he hasn't eaten in days. And he's very excited and happy and rubbing his head on everything and purring. And again, by the time you hear this, a lot of days will have gone by, but this is what's happening.

So this is where you're checking in. And I don't know what's going to happen. Hopefully progress will continue. And that's good news. I really thought he was a goner. I'd really got it into my head that I was going to have to put him down or I was going to bring him home and he was going to be incredibly compromised. Now, granted, this is only day one of him being home, so we'll see what happens.

But yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic. So the Buster emergency situation has been downgraded now to an arc. But either way, it's just interesting with veterinarians and with regular doctors, how much they don't know and what any one animal is going to do, human or non-human. And just that we don't know if it was a toxic thing or infection. But I guess what it isn't, it it seems is chronic renal failure not today not today and you know what's ironic is that mandy moore and myself we start right at the beginning of our conversation we're talking about cats and it was two weeks ago and i was talking

about we were talking about dead dying cats i was talking about you know having to deal with the the inevitability of my old cats going but i was like but i got this new guy he's only two and he'll be around for a while and then fucking ironically he's still around but you know he's the one who got sick but he's okay he's okay as of this recording oh man i gotta pee is that a i'll it. So, okay. This is something you need to know. On a lighter note, I, okay. So I've been listening to a little bit of Steely Dan and we've covered it. All right. You know, some guy said I was going to be cursed and I'm not sure. I'm not, I'm not sure there wasn't a message in that like as i told you

and some of you know like for years i was just sort of like steely dan annoying people like steely dan annoying you know just boring sterile soulless or whatever but then a couple weeks ago as i talked about here on the podcast um i uh i i took turned a corner because i heard it in a different way but then i kind of got like then i was like i gotta listen to all of it so i listened to all of it and i like it and the songs that i remember uh liking from you know just hearing them constantly i you know they took a different life uh in my mind a little bit, but like, again, I like it. I get it. I like it. Not crazy about it, but here's the fucking problem. It's, it's like, okay, how do I say this? Steely Dan in my head, I believe is starting to feed on the other music I enjoy in my head. I think it's got a viral

component to it. I think it's, it's, it's parasitical. Steely Dan in your head is like a parasite that eats the other music that you like. Because all of a sudden, all the songs that are stuck in my head are Steely Dan songs. And if I want to listen to some Stooges, and I got a Steely Dan song on my head. It's not that I'm going to listen to Steely think it's i think the music that i put in my head already is starting to feed on some of my other feelings about other music and i got to put a stop to that i have to get some anti-dan going i've got to it there's got to be some sort of um vaccination so now i've got to put together a Steely Dan disease vaccination song list in order to to sort of balance my brain and perhaps cleanse it from the viral nature of Steely Dan music

so that said that was the this is the the price I'm paying for finally learning how to appreciate Steely Dan at this age. Maybe if I was younger, this tragedy wouldn't have happened. But because I was older and I dumped it all into my head at once, something bad is happening up there. But I think I have the remedy for it. pushing back as an antiviral against the steely dan fucking earworms that i've unleashed in my head oh i'll be all right so mandy moore was lovely she was one of these people that came over and right away i'm like oh i am in the presence of a star she's just got that charisma where you're kind of like i'm sitting across from a special person. Yeah.

And she brought cookies. So I don't know. Maybe they're connected. But again, we did start talking about cats. And the irony is, is that, you know, Buster was the guy I was like, you know, that guy is going to be great. And he he got sick. But he's better. He's better today. Mandy, of course, is on the show.

This is us. It airs Tuesday nights at 9 p.m. Eastern on NBC. And this is me talking to her. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those.

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Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need.

And policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. I don't think he lasted that one. I think Butch only made it two years, but we knew he had symptoms. He started walking really close to the floor and fucked up. Really? Yeah, and so we brought it in, got x-rayed, and the guy told us that it had enlarged heart, but he said it wasn't going to live long.

Oh, yeah. See, our vet, she had been having some sort of health issues, but it was related to an inflamed colon or something. It was like a gastro issue. Oh, yeah. See, our vet, she had been having some sort of health issues, but it was related to like she had an inflamed colon or something. It was like a gastro issue. Right, right. And we took her to like 50 different vets and she had series after series of tests. Yeah. And then the last vet we brought her to, you know, did an x-ray and said, do you know she

has an enlarged heart? It's nothing to worry about. Come back in a year and we'll check on it. But this thing, it's like it's catastrophic when it happens. It's like someone having a heart attack. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just to worry about come back in a year and we'll check on it but this thing it's like it's catastrophic when it happens it's like someone having a heart attack yeah yeah and it's just like he just died she just well we brought her into the vet but i mean i was sitting in the back with her holding her and i could just tell like there's how do you come back from that i was like does she like i'm not sure she'll ever be able to walk again it was incredibly traumatic it's 11 o'clock the day before we got married. Oh my God.

Sobbing all night. For the cat. For the cat. I mean, you know, it's, they're part of your family. You know, it's weird. I've had, the two I have

are like 15 almost. So I've had, they're the longest relationships I've had with any living thing other than parents. And they're healthy, but I know at some point, I mean, they're 15.

That little guy, Buster, he's like two and something, you know, two years. He just showed up at the old house. Sure. I used to live in Highland Park. Yeah. Like I lived by, like you're married to the Dawes guy? Yeah.

What's his name? Taylor. Taylor. Yeah. Well, that's nice. Yeah. A rock guy. So you know Austin, the amp guy?

Oh, yes, I know Austin. Yes, I've met him. Austin lived around the corner from me, and he fixed this amp for me. It took many months for Austin to chase down the buzzes in this amp. And I guess I met Austin through Blake. Oh, through Blake Mills. Right. But I'm not a real musician guy, but I just happened to meet these guys because they come on the show yeah and then Blake's sort of like

no I got an amp guy I'm like that's a little high-end from you know just and then and but I it's too bad you don't know Austin well because I don't know if he remembers your husband's band uses those projector amps that Austin makes sure you probably know way more than i do well it looks like a film projector okay sure yeah yeah because it's from an old doesn't matter i i for some reason i have austin's prototype projector amp that he built with his dad i have it still because he told me to just hold on to it he wanted me to try it years ago and then he didn't he wanted me to hold on to it so he wouldn't sell it. And I still have it. You do.

I don't know if he remembers. It doesn't matter. Well, maybe he'll listen to this and call you to ask for it. I don't use it. Maybe he will. So you're married to a rock guy. I'm married to a rock guy. Yeah.

The second rock guy. The second rock guy. Clearly, I'm a glutton for punishment or I have a type. Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, okay. We don't have to start there. I'm trying to-

I thought we'd ease into that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I tried to get caught up on This Is Us, but I just bounced around a lot. Yeah. And it does- Something tells me it's not your type of show. No, but the thing is, it could. It is kind of.

Really? Yeah, because like I like to cry. I don't necessarily want to be public about it. Sure. I understand. But I found that even jumping around that it seems like every five minutes in that show, you can cry if necessary. If you want to. But it's.

You feel compelled to. It's designed like that i think to make i mean it's designed to like yeah tap into the human condition and what makes us tick so yes and at any given moment i'm starting to cry just now just now just listening to you talk tears are just sort of right below the surface at all times are they yeah for you too i yeah yeah i feel like the older I get for sure. What is that? Why are we, is it good? I'll lean into it.

Why not? Just getting choked up all the time? So what, now you didn't grow up here. I grew up in Florida. Oh my God. I know. I'm sorry. It's a weird place to grow up. It's a weird place for anything.

Yeah. So how did you get to Florida? Do you start in Florida? Yeah. I was actually born in New Hampshire, but both my parents are from Orlando. Oh, New Hampshire's nice. New Hampshire's beautiful, but I was there for six weeks. That's it?

And my parents moved down to Florida. They just ran away to have you? They didn't want anyone to know, so they moved to New Hampshire. It was too cold for them. Oh, really? They couldn't hack it. So they moved there, and they just left? My dad is a pilot for American Airlines.

Still? Mm-hmm. Really? I bet you I've been on his plane. I bet you have. Captain Moore. I'm going to remember that. I'm very loyal to American Airlines.

So am I. I have to be. It's like a prerequisite. Well, you'd probably get a little bit of a break, I would imagine. Not unless I want to fly standby. Who has time for that? No, no, no. No, no. You've got to get- A prerequisite. Well, you'd probably get a little bit of a break, I would imagine. Not unless I want to fly standby. Who has time for that? No, no, no. No, no.

You've got to get where you're going. Mandy Moore can't be standing there watching other people get on. It's just you need to get where you're going. I understand, but it would be a little awkward. But as kids, oh my God, we flew standby and flew first class if it was available. Yeah. It was- You guys were special.

We felt special. Well, what if your dad's actually flying the plane? I've never flown on the plane with my dad before. You never did the cockpit thing? Mm-mm. How could you pass up... He never offered? Just when we were growing up, he flew a lot to like South and Latin America.

And there was really no need for us to go on like any family vacations down there. You weren't a drug mule back when you were a kid? Not as a child, no. But now he flies mostly to London and Tokyo. So did he start in the Air Force? No, he was just a civilian pilot always. Wow. I think there's something unique and special about that job. There are these weird, kind of, they're national heroes that aren't identified with an ideology. There's something heroic about just being a commercial air pilot where you're like,

you know, yes, sir. But it's not. I will pass that on to him. Yeah. He's so happy to hear that. But it's not tied to, like, it's like they get, it's easy. They have no affiliation. Right, right.

So there's no reason to hate commercial air pilots or be judgmental of their cause. Sure. They're just trying to get people there safely. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'd tell them thanks. I will. I don't know.

Thanks for your service. What's your mom do? My mom was just mom. Yeah? Yeah. Do you got brothers and sisters? I have an older and a younger brother. How are they doing?

They're good. Yeah? They're out here. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Trying their hand at the thing? Behind the scenes. Oh, yeah?

Like gaffing or ADing? In production coordination, actually. Oh. Yeah. Well, that's the grunts Behind the scenes. Oh yeah? Like gaffing or ADing? In production coordination actually. Oh. Yeah. Well that's the grunts on the ground. Grunts on the ground.

I'm sorry I just watched a Vietnam episode so my Wait are you watching the Ken Burns? Well I already watched that.

Oh you were watching the This Is Us? Yeah I was just in Vietnam earlier today. Oh good gracious. Yeah so I'm

using the word grunts and you know kind of there's a lot of military things going. I just declared your father a national hero for being a commercial air pilot. So tell me about surviving Florida because, look, my mother's down there. You know, I have grown to appreciate Florida more, but it's a freak show and I don't know about it that far down. I don't either. Like Orlando. I try to know as little as possible wait was she she's a northern Florida or no wait I don't know so I don't know I now I don't know Florida we're in the central part of the state right no she's down by she's in

Hollywood no she's not up in Tallahassee my Jewish mom just just like making do and Jackson she decided to retire to Jacksonville, Florida. Florida's odd. I always tell people like any bizarre story always has some Florida connection. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a very, I grew up like 20 minutes north of Orlando. So just a very boring, normal suburban childhood. Is that by the?

The park? Yeah. Like it's even about 40 minutes north of that. Wow. Yeah. Did you see that movie? Which one? Oh, The Florida Project?

Yeah. I didn't. I know everyone told me I need to see it. A little rough. I've heard. You didn't watch it? No. I have to do that.

All right, so you're just in Florida. You got an older and younger brother. Yes. They're out here doing what, production work, you said? Yep. And you get along with them? I do. They're at the house occasionally? Yeah. Do they like Dawes? They do like Dawes. Do they like Dawes more than they like Ryan Adams?

Everyone does, yeah. Everyone in my life. But how do you, like, what is the, because that era that you came up in in terms of how you know in what you came up in the singing thing how does that start you know in florida how do you become a pop sensation just by chance really yeah i was like a a dorky theater kid i in high school or before no no as like a kid like eight nine, 9, 10. So you'd go, you'd do plays? Like local community theater.

Oh yeah? Yeah. And I love, like no one in my family sings or acts or is remotely artistic at all. I don't know where it came from. You just needed it. I needed it. I did. I did.

Like so much so that the Orlando Sentinel, the local paper, every Friday would have an audition hotline with all of the auditions coming up the next week. And I would listen every Friday before school and see if there was anything for anyone my age, like all across town. Really? And my parents were so wonderful because they would schlep me from audition to audition, like, you know, far out, like outside of our little area. Were there ever situations where you'd be going to an audition and your mom would be like, I don't know about this place? Kind of. It's an hour away, Mandy.

It's too far. This doesn't seem like a real theater operation. Who's that guy? No, no, we're not going here. But I did a ton of that until I went to an Orlando Magic game and saw a little girl my age sing the national anthem how old are we talking 12 and i had no idea that was even in the realm of possibility that that was a career trajectory that was a career trajectory yeah for a 12 year old i can sing the national anthem at a sentinel i begged my parents yeah to um to put me on tape and send in like an audition

to the magic and they did and i got chosen and from there like an audition to the Magic. And they did. And I got chosen. And from there, I sang for the Magic game. And then, I don't know, I got sort of put into some sort of national anthem circuit where I then sang for every other sports team that played in that same arena. So I sang for the Jackals, which I think was the arena football team. So you were the anthem kid. I was the little anthem kid. I was singing.

I remember I was 13. I was singing at the ice hockey game. And my dad was sitting in like the goalie box or whatever, the penalty box. And I'm walking back after I sang. I had my little pitch pipe. And these two guys, like bizarre men, beckon me over. And my dad's with me. In Florida, in Orlando.

And they ask me if I've ever recorded in a recording studio before. Two guys. Two guys. Uh-huh. And they say, we'd love to like, we have some songs that we've written and we'd love to have you sing them. Young guys? Yeah, like in their 30s. Right, right. Yeah, like in their 30s.

Right, right. And my parents were like, if you want to do that, if you want to spend some of your own money that you've made, like doing national commercials. Do the commercials in the anthem gig. Yeah. You did some national commercials too? I did, I did. I did a Kmart commercial. Oh. And a bunch of stuff for like the theme parks.

Nothing super big. Nationals? Mm-hmm. So you're making some money. I mean, not a ton of money, but. Kmart, yeah. But enough to go sustain myself recording in some bizarre studio on the outskirts of Orlando. Oh, yeah?

So your parents said okay. My parents said okay. I'm in the studio recording. Would they drive you over there? Are they sitting there with you? Yeah, they're there with me. Mom and dad are there the whole time. With the weird guys? With the weird guys.

I know. Looking back now, it's so sketchy. At the time, it was like, this is how this happens. It kind of is, though. Kind of. I mean, the record industry is not known for its decency. So I'm in the studio, and this guy who works for FedEx has a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend who's the head of Urban A&R, as they called it, at Epic Records in New York.

That's big. Yeah. And this FedEx guy somehow maneuvers it up the chain. And it gets to this gentleman in New York. Just out of his appreciation. The goodness of his heart. I mean, clearly, I'm sure he was looking to know, get out, find a new gig for himself. Did you give him a Christmas present?

They definitely took care of him. Okay. And this guy flew down to Orlando from Epic Records. A&R guy. A&R guy. And I sang a song from a musical for him. Which musical? Once Upon a Mattress.

Oh. I don't even, I just knew this one song from the show. And you belted it out. I belted it out for him. I was 14 at the time. Yeah.

I had just started my freshman year of high school. Yeah. And he, I don't know how, but like heard something he liked and I signed with him

and I left school just after Christmas break and started making my first... As a freshman. And you went to New York? I went to New York and started making my first record. Yeah, what's it called? So Real.

You were so real. I was so real. It was deep stuff. Deep shit at 15. This was 1999. I mean, come on. No, I know. No, no.

This was 1999. I mean, come on. No, I know. See, but it's sort of fascinating to me that you have this fundamental talent, both as an actor and as a singer. That's kind of you to put it that way. I don't know if that was really the case. No, of course it was the case. I mean, you were running around doing this stuff,

and you were charming enough to get these gigs. They't they weren't laughing at you at the national anthem you were you were doing the job or you wouldn't have gotten the job i guess i guess you weren't some free kid you know sure like you know sure but you know i think you give people the benefit of the doubt when they're 12 13 years old and right but the benefit of the doubt is one thing but from a guy to fly down from new york and decide like not this kid now that epic ain't our guy was he like old school or just another young 30 something he was a young guy he actually his big claim to fame was he had signed the backstreet boys when they were at jive records and he had just moved to epic and i think i was one of the first acts that he signed now i unfortunately i was a sort of uh i think a grown man kind of by the time all this happened so it wasn't your cup of tea no i get i get a lot of them confused i missed most things

yeah i missed i missed almost everything i don't know why but i did but but my question though is that so you go up to new york and you're doing this thing. Now, were you just, they were, obviously someone had an idea of how you fit into the whole. Yeah. This was sort of, I was on the cusp of Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera. Like they had just come out and were just sort of like racing to the top of the charts. Were you fans of them? I, to be quite honest, I didn't, it was so new. Like, you know, I was, I was my label's answer to those girls.

But they decided that, though. They decided that. I didn't know. So it was hard to even be fans of them at that point because they were just sort of coming out. And they were like kids, too, right? They were kids, too. Like 15, 16? They were slightly older than me.

Like three or four years older than me. One of them, weren't they Mouseketeers or something? Both of them? They both were. Yeah. And people assumed that I was as well just because of the Orlando connection. Another Mouseketeer. Another Mouseketeer.

They found her at the park down there. Disney's just churning them out. Yeah. So you just like singing the songs. You weren't writing the songs. They were writing the songs for you, but they wanted wanted you to be this sort of cute sexualized you know 15 year old between myself and and my contemporaries i guess is honestly i never had someone telling me that i needed to like no one made decisions for me. No one tried to

hyper-sexualize my image or even the music that I was singing. I mean, obviously at that point in time, I had probably like French kissed a boy, but I hadn't done anything else. I certainly didn't know everything that I was singing about, but no one like, no one made me dress in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. Like I still felt very much in control of the image that I was projecting, the way I answered questions. Right. So if they suggested something, you would be like, okay. But in the sense that, did you choose your clothes? Yeah.

But they presented it to you. Right, right. I mean, there was like a stylist there with a rack of clothes in the same way that that sort of exists today, but I still felt very much in control of making my own decisions. And that first album had like one hit? It did. Candy? Candy. Yeah. And then

what happens when that happens? So you're 15. Now that people that are like, you know, going crazy for candy are little girls? Yeah. Mostly little girls. Okay. Mostly little girls. Okay. Girls my age. Right. Younger.

And they're all excited. Mm-hmm. So when they see you on the street, they're excited and they're... I don't know if I had that sort of recognition. Did it have a video presence? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

It was still in the heyday of MTV. And very quickly, actually, the record came out in 99. Yeah. And that same year, at the end of the year, I signed a contract with MTV to become an MTV VJ. So I was also on the channel as a VJ, like helping TRL when Carson wasn't there. Carson Daly? Carson Daly. I mean, it was like a completely different world.

He just never, like, he never really changes much and he never goes away. It's just sort of like. He's still out there doing his thing. Yeah, you just, you turn the TV on and you're like, is never really changes much and he never goes away. It's just sort of like. He's still out there doing his thing. Yeah, you just, you turn the TV on and you're like, is that Carson Daly? Yeah. What time is it? It's 2.30 in the morning. He's got a show at 2.30 in the morning.

Now he's on, what, the Today Show? He's on the Today Show. I know. He finally landed in daytime. Yeah, I know. But then I think he still has his own show, like you said, at 2 in the morning as well. But that show, like, I did it once and he wasn't even there. I remember, like, they used to do do these record these out of studio interviews it was a

time where they'd sort of fold stuff in it was it was his really late show it wasn't the one where he was just doing a straight up talk show there were segments yeah and i knew i was going to be on the carson daly show but like someone interviewed me in a bar or something wow and then it just showed up there i'm like i don't get to meet Carson? How is this that? There's only so much time in the day for him, Mark. So, yeah, that's true. So, he's on MTV at that time? Yes.

And who are the other cats on MTV? It's you and- Oh, gosh. Dave Holmes and I believe Ananda was another. Tyrese was a VJ at one point. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was- Was he in Baby Boy? Was at one point. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was. Was he in Baby Boy? Yes.

God damn, I love that movie. Yeah. I haven't seen that movie. Oh, you got to watch that movie. It's a great movie. It's Singleton. You know, it's John. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Boys in the Hood guy. Yeah. I love that movie. So it's you guys. You're all VJs. Yeah. At that point, there's like, what, 12 videos in rotation? Or it's more than that? Probably moreJs. Yeah. At that point, there's like, what, 12 videos in rotation? Or it's more than that.

Probably more than that. Yeah. But it was back during the heyday of MTV, too, where they had MTV Spring Break, MTV Snowden, where we were in Big Bear. Like Jon Stewart used to host Spring Break. Really? He did once. That was before my time. That was my only Spring Break experience so by the way and as a 15 and 16 year old

with like drunk college guys leering at you not a good scene. That's a part of America that never changes. Never. Drunk college guys

leering at girls. Teenage girls. Yeah teenage girls. But did you ever have to at that time were you just excited? Were you just

happy to be part of it and absolutely and was there a competitive nature between you and not at all I mean first of all they had such tremendous success yeah comparatively I was I'm sure they didn't even know my name they probably didn't even know I existed so did you feel shitty no not at all I felt and I still feel like So did you feel shitty? No, not at all. I felt, and I still feel like incredibly grateful to have had those opportunities. And I mean, here I am at 34, still having some semblance of a career thanks to that.

So no, and I always knew like, look, I am not a performer like they are. Did you stop aging at some point? Did you just stop? I mean, like you're, yeah. Like, I mean, you're 34, but I feel like I've known about you my entire life, and you're just, I'm getting older, and you're staying the same. How does that happen? I don't know. No, no.

You're only 34. That's certainly not the case. But I mean, I've been doing this since I was 16, 15, so it's pretty mind-blowing, but- But so, were you an MTV personality when you did the second record? Yes. So it was all tied together. You never felt any weirdness from the record? It didn't get ugly?

No. In what way? What do you mean? It just feels like there would be a lot of pressure. It's hard for me not to see younger people who get involved in the record business as products and being pushed a certain way? I mean, I suppose there was some of that going on, but I didn't feel wholly aware of it. You were just excited. I was so excited for the opportunity. And it was so overwhelming in a way that I just kept taking it day by day and not trying to look at like the bigger picture of it

all. And I didn't know what I was doing. So there was no and you know being a young person it's like to have all of that on my plate now would complete would give me anxiety it would freak me out right as a young person i was just like i'd go open up for the backstreet boys in front of like 20 000 people and all these glow sticks and just the roar of the crowd. And I wouldn't think anything of it. Now I would shit my pants. Like, you know, I couldn't do it. You were just sort of locked in. I was so locked in.

And it's time to go out and sing. Yeah, and I had my backup dancers. I didn't know what I was doing, but I just like, I was in it. I was so present. Ish, trying to. Really? The record label noticed really early on like, okay, so she's not a dancer. I did one music video, the candy video, where I'm like trying to dance and it's horrendous.

And I think after that they realized, like, you should just sing. Just like hold the microphone stand. Oh, so that's why you're like, you're not like, like Brittany. Yeah, I wasn't Brittany or Christina. They were, they were real performers in every sense of the word. But the Backstreet Boys, those are the Boston guys, right? That's New Kids on the Block. Oh, damn it.

They were earlier. They were an earlier incarnation of the boy band, yes. Oh, so the Backstreet Boys. Backstreet Boys, NSYNC, they came after them. Aren't they trying to come back or something? Backstreet's still, I think they're like in Vegas doing a residency or something. They're still doing it. Yeah.

Yeah. Is that good or? Why not? I guess so. Right? Yeah. Don't you wonder who goes? Are they the teenage girls that were there?

That are all grown up now. Yeah. Yeah. And they're what? They're probably 40s or 30s? But I feel like I have the same fan base in a way. Or at least like young women that sort of like grew up with me well no like young moms and stuff for sure i guess there's sort of that nostalgia quotient too

for for people with those kinds of bands but you don't do you well yeah i think for any band like i think that any band that made an impact on somebody when they were like 13 or 14 it's lodged in there yeah and you kind of want to go back. Because it seems like as you get older, there's some party that's always yearning to sort of like, I wonder if I can get in touch with that person. What happened to that person? But you're not doing no nostalgia shows, do you?

No, no, no. I haven't done music in a while. I'm getting back to it though. Are you? Mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Hmm.

You did a little of that. You got a band. Do you know any musicians? Just a few. But you sang on the show. I do. I sing on the show. Yeah.

That's a backstory of your life in the show too. Which was unknown to me when I auditioned did they know though i always wonder how much they know when they start writing these shows because i've been on a couple and the ones i'm on they don't i don't get the sense that they know from season to season what the next season's going to look like but i something like this is us looks like they've got it mapped out they have it he absolutely has it mapped out until the end i think once i got the part yeah he decided to sort of add that into her backstory because we had worked together on that Disney movie Tangled. Dan Fogelman, who created this.

You're Rapunzel. I'm Rapunzel. And so he knew that I sang because of that film and that experience together. So I think that maybe factored in for the backstory. He knew that you were a singer? He knew I could carry a tune-ish. So, okay. So now you do the second record. Yes.

Any hits? Yeah. There was a song called I Want to Be With You that was in sort of a teen dance romantic movie called Center Stage, I think. Uh-huh. And that was a moderate mediocre sort of hit it's a beautiful song and I loved it and I felt way more connected to

the style and the fact that it felt like a little bit more organic and there was no need for me to even try to dance to a song like that I really I enjoyed putting that record out it did have some snappy kind of Middle Eastern grooves. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it did. It did. That was not my choice. That was a record label push. I listened to some of it. It doesn't really stand the test of time. Of course it does. As it were.

What do you mean? What's the test of time? I mean, you can still go like, oh, yeah, this is fun. This is so 2001. Yeah, but it's still like, you know, you can dance to it and it's happy music. I mean, I don't think anyone would, you know. Look, I don't begrudge it. I don't begrudge like the opportunities that it brought me.

But I can't say that I feel truly connected to any of that because I didn't have any real say creatively in the music. Like I was always allowed to be myself when it came to making those decisions but musically that's when you have the whole conglomerate of an entire machine of a record label behind you right they know what's selling they know what the kids like they know what has international market sure or they're trying to sort of do something that's a little off the beaten path and and start a trend themselves and they're like go down to miami and work with emilio estevan or whatever yeah okay like yeah here's what. And they're like, go down to Miami and work with Emilio Estevan or whatever. I'm like, okay. Here's what you do.

They're going to be doing this. Right. And there's all kinds of drums behind you. Exactly. Here's what the demo singer is doing. Copy her. Right. And you do it.

And you do it. When did you get the first acting gig? Kind of right around that time um when i was 16 i uh auditioned for the gary marshall movie the princess diaries that was a big movie it was a big movie that was like the little girls again yeah right yeah well it was it was anne hathaway i love her julie andrews yeah she's amazing Do you know that I love her though? Do you? Yeah, I do. You love, love her? I kind of do. She has that effect on people. But then- She's very impressive. Well, I interviewed her and I kept it together. Good going. Thank you. So it's you and Anne Hathaway. I'm sorry, did that- And Julie Andrews.

Yes. That's right. You got to work with Julie Andrews. I did. But there was no singing in that movie, was there? Not for me. A little bit for me. Was it fun work with Julie Andrews. I did. But there was no singing in that movie, was there? Not for me. A little bit for me. Was it fun working with Julie Andrews? I mean, I didn't really get to work with her, but I was around her on set a couple times. Oh, that's something. But, I mean, yeah, she's Mary Poppins.

So, but that was, elevated your recognition factor, I'd imagine? I guess so. It was like my first experience in a really professional setting, dipping my toe into the acting world. Yeah. And I realized that I really loved it. Yeah. And I sort of started putting myself out there and auditioning for other roles. Yeah.

And then the next thing that came up was my next gig, I guess, was A Walk to Remember. And that was sort of the biggest biggest one yeah to date and who is in that um an actor by the name of shane west to date that was your biggest movie in terms of and how it did you mean or in terms of what i think sort of the the relevance of the film right like besides Like, besides This Is Us, it's the thing that people mention most to me in my day-to-day life and out there in the world. Oh, well, now I've got to,

I didn't, I have to watch it. No, no you don't. I like Peter Coyote. Peter Coyote played my father. Yeah. It's a sort of weepy teen romance movie. It's not for you. Does anyone die again?

Yeah. Are you serious? Spoiler alert, yeah. Do you? I die. You die not for you. Does anyone die again? Yeah. Are you serious? Spoiler alert, yeah. Do you? I die. You die at the end of... I die at the end. See, now I'm sad.

My whole career is just based on making people cry, I've realized. It comes full circle. That's heavy, though. It's all I'm good for. So that's like a love story for teenagers. It kind of was, yeah. What'd you die of?

Leukemia. That is a love story for teenagers. It kind of was, yeah. What'd you die of? Leukemia. That is love story. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. So that's what people remember. That's what people remember. Because it fucked their little teenage brains.

Yeah. You introduced them to grief. Yeah, I did. Their first experience crying in a movie theater. It was you. It was me. Oh. Sorry.

But like grown ladies come up to you and you're like, you know, that movie was... Still. Oh. Yeah. It's, I mean, I'm so flattered to be a part of something that still has

that sort of resonance with people. Well, it's never gonna, yeah, it's down in there. It's down in there. But now with This Is Us, it's like every week you have that resonance

with people. I guess. I hope. You don't die? No, no. Okay, good. That would be my husband. Yeah. Well, he's already dead, right? Yeah. You don't die? No, no. Okay. That would be my husband, yeah. Well, he's already dead, right?

Yeah. How did he die? He dies of a heart attack from smoke inhalation. Oh, right, because he ran in to save the dog. Yeah. Right, I heard. I got some, I was told some stuff. You got some insider information.

My girlfriend's a secret fan of the show. Really? Yeah, and she, I don't know why people, there's certain types of people that I, for some reason don't want to cop to you know i understand i don't really i mean it's like why not you know what i mean it's it's everyone likes it because for a reason yeah doesn't mean it's bad it's not like a comedy it's like no way i'm really proud of it you should be yeah like didn't you get involved in some twitter mistake I made with the big guy on the show? Oh, Chris Sullivan.

You mistook him for someone else. He was so excited that you maybe recognized him. Well, I felt bad because the other dude, too, the guy who plays the Manny, what's his name? Justin. Justin recognized me at the last SAG Awards, too. And because I didn't watch the show, I felt bad. But he was like, hey. It's okay.

Well, now I know. Now I can have some. Now you have a point of reference. I do. Yeah. And I feel better about it. But yeah. But that was the De Niro thing where we were trying to act like we were just being casual

and not waiting. Waiting for him to finish his conversation. It was ridiculous. That's what you do with those shows though. I mean, it is your opportunity to go up and talk to people that you're a fan but you've been an actor forever i've just been a guy that some people have gone to their people have come to my house and sat in my garage and now i'm all of a sudden an actor guy and it was really odd for me the first i'm nervous being here you are yeah why because i am because i listened to your show and i'm i'm

i never thought that i would be in this seat. So you listened to that Ryan Adams? I did. I had to. Just to see if he was going to say something bad? No, no, no. I just was curious what he was going to say. What did I get out of him?

I did all right for being... You did. Yeah. It's hard to wrangle. It's hard to wrangle. I've actually not... Usually you're the one that talks more than, you know, the person you're interviewing. And that wasn't the case there.

Excuse me? It's your show. I mean, you're entitled. You should take the lead. I do not think that's always the case. So you're saying. You're right. It depends.

But I would say for the most part. I talk more than the guests. You're chattier than the guests. Sometimes. Well, it's a. It's a. It's a. It's a dance. Right. It's a dance. It's a. Like. And it's also. Like. Sometimes than the guests. Sometimes. It's a... It's a dance.

Right. It's a dance. And it's also like, sometimes you have to. Yeah. But no, he just kept going. Yeah. But we're not to Ryan Adams yet. We're still...

Oh, we're not there yet? Oh, goodness. Okay. I think what I'm really curious about is that there is a point where you say, this isn't me and i you know if i want to be a singer i have to find me which album was that the label let me make a covers record called coverage yeah it was 18 yeah yeah and i i got to choose whatever songs i wanted to cover. So, I mean, I chose Joni Mitchell. I chose XTC and Joe Jackson. And, I mean, it was, I knew that we were sort of at the end of our life together at the label. Oh, really?

How do you know that? I owed them one more record. Oh. And I knew that it wasn't a relationship that was going to continue. Why? Because they weren't happy? Because I wasn't really selling records. Oh.

And the fact that they let me, an 18-year-old, make a covers record of songs that people my age had no idea about. Yeah. Kind of indicated like it was just sort of a last ditch effort to like, you know, allow me to sort of fulfill my obligation without the stakes being too high. Yeah. Yeah. And did it sell? It didn't but people i i think i think people liked it and it served a purpose for me creatively yeah i felt like it was a stepping stone in order for me to get to the place where i am now musically yeah

like so you were able by choosing the songs you were able to you loved, you were able to inhabit them in your truest self. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good way of describing it. Right. Because they mean something to you. They mean something to me. And it was a way to honor music that I felt people my age were maybe missing out on.

Yeah. But it brought me closer to wanting to be a songwriter myself and kind of grab hold of, I don't know, the reins of my own career creatively. But also at this point, thankfully, on some level, I mean, I imagine it has to be kind of devastating that, or at least to accept the fact that you're not selling, can't feel great, but you're also acting.

But I didn't ever really sell. Like, I never made any money from music. I never really found any acclaim. I never went on tour. But a lot of people know who you are. You think that's more from the movies? I think it's probably more from the acting side of things than musically. I think the music sort of was a supplement to what I was doing on the acting side.

Like, it was a nice balance. Music's always what I've been kind of more passionate about, so I was happy to have some semblance of it in my life, but I didn't lean on it too heavily, thinking this is my only source of income, this is my only source of creativity. So after coverage, you leave what, Epic? Yeah, I left Sony. i went to warner brothers for

a second and then that didn't work out i started making a record with them and that didn't work out really and then i just went off and like made my own record and like my management company at the time put it out and this was like 2007 wild hope. Yeah. How'd that do? It did okay, I think. I never really, to be quite honest, I never kept track of stuff. I can't find the last record. You can't?

No. Amanda Lee? Yeah, come find it. Oh, man. It's not on Apple Music. Why is that? I don't know. It's weird.

Because I was thinking that's the one. It's cool. It's by far my favorite. Yeah. Do you know Mike Viola viola do i i don't love his music yeah he's a really good friend of mine an incredible musician you should he put out a record last year called the american egypt that's will blow your mind but i made my record with him this is like 2009 yeah and uh i felt like that was, artistically, again, it was like, we could do our Todd Rundgren song.

We could do our Joni song. We could do our McCartney song. Yeah. We just had so much fun. But not cover, it's just style. No, no, stylistically, yeah. You're a Todd Rundgren person? Yeah.

Not like a huge fan, but- There's a lot there. It's pretty hit or miss for me. There's a lot there. Yeah. But it's interesting, there's people that I talk to who I know, who I respect, but I don't necessarily know the whole thing. With musicians, it's like, you might like two records and then they've done 50.

Yeah. So you're like, how many do I got to listen to? That kind of describes my relationship with his music. Right. Yeah. Runt, something, anything. But beyond that, it's a little. Yeah.

And McCartney, of course. I love McCartney. How can you not? So you and Viola did a trip where you were conscious of the styles you were trying to sort of touch at. Very much so. I don't know why I couldn't find the record. I'll get you a copy next time. You should talk to some people about that.

Yeah. So, but the movies keep happening. Yes, ish. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, I keep saying ish, but they, I would say like 2008 is sort of the year that things sort of like 2008, 2009 is when I sort of took maybe more of a conscious step back and like slowed down a little bit.

I got married in 2009 and that's when things really sort of quieted down for me quieted down career wise yes personally not so much but but but um professionally yes and that was a conscious decision because i had been going since i was 15 and but what was what was that what was your reflection like i mean like because you'd done well you hadn't done rapunzel you hadn't done that came like at the beginning of my marriage i started that like 2009 it didn't come out until 2010 but right so but like when you're sitting there saying you're you know you're taking a break or you're going to reflect a little bit what what was your feeling about who you were at that point? I think it coincided with a period of growth where I didn't feel understood by the industry

and maybe I didn't understand myself. I felt like I kept coming up against a wall of like people see me in one regard. Which was what? One light. I think the roles that i was getting offered or that people sort of tended to think of me for were you know the girl next door which is lovely and is very much a facet of my personality but i was frustrated that that people were closed-minded

and couldn't sort of see me as anything but that. You wanted to challenge yourself? Yeah. What were you looking to do, though? Anything. Anything left of center. I mean, like. Drug addicts. Sure.

All of it. All of it. Corporate leaders, presidents. I hadn't really thought so much in that direction. But, yeah, I mean, I was just open to whatever the world sort of was like, oh, that would be an interesting turn for her. And it wasn't really coming. Well, you must have pretty good representation. They seem to keep you working.

You've worked. Yeah. No, I have. It's been pretty steady. But I also my parents were getting divorced. How old were you? Twenty three. Oh, really?

Really dramatic and traumatic for me. Yeah, my mom left my father for a woman. And it was completely surprising. And it sort of coincided in a year where I had this movie with Diane Keaton coming out. I had that record, Wild Hope, coming out. I had another movie coming out. And I was touring. It was like maybe the busiest year I'd ever really had.

And it all sort of happened over the Christmas break right before the year started. She came out? She, I ended up finding a letter from her that she wasn't, it was like a therapy exercise that she wasn't intending to send to us. Where, at the house? On her computer. Because I had like bought her a laptop and I was setting up her laptop for her for Christmas. Right.

And I saw this letter in her like, you know, draft folder. Yeah. And I didn't know what to do. And so I sort of confronted her after the holidays and told her that I had read it. And it just, it was really dramatic. But I- You were the only one who knew. No, I told my younger brother.

And were you guys- We were on vacation. And it was- Where? We were in, I think, North Carolina. The whole family? The whole family. We were on Christmas vacation.

And you had this information? I found this information, like sitting in the same room as my parents. And you're like 23. Yeah. And I didn't know what to do with it so i kind of like put the computer down basically the information was i've been having an affair i've been having an affair on your father i'm in love with this woman and uh i feel so bad i have kind of talked about it before but um uh and essentially like i'm i'm gonna be leaving your father and yeah i didn't i

literally just sort of like glanced at it and sort of like words kind of jumped out at me, but I didn't sit there like reading it. And there was a whole entire shift. So much to process an entire shift. I ran upstairs. My brother followed me cause he could sense that something was wrong. I told him what was going on.

And I was like, we have to go down and, and say something to them. They were like literally across, like sitting on the other couch, watching TV in front of us. Not just to like, we have to go down and say something to them. They were like literally across, like sitting on the other couch, watching TV in front of us. Not just to her, to them? To them. My parents were both there, not my mom's partner.

No, no. But I mean, you were going to be the way your dad was going to find out? No, no. He knew. That's what it had indicated in the letter, that my dad knew and they were sort of trying to figure out the terms of what their relationship was going to look like. And, and so I was like ready to go down and confront them. And my brother, you know, thank goodness was like, I don't think that's the right way to handle this. My younger brother, he's like, you know, dad seems like, haven't you noticed that he's, he's like, he's really sort of like taking in this vacation. I think he knows that this is perhaps the last time we're all going to be together as a family. Oh, wow. Let him have this time.

And so I had to go through like two or three more days of this vacation knowing this information. That's pretty intuitive. And like so angry at my mom. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it's very intuitive of your brother. It's interesting. It really was.

Yeah, he's a sensitive, thoughtful guy. And it was the right move. And we, like, sat out the rest of the family vacation. And then after the vacation is when I sort of confronted them, confronted my mom. How did that go? Like, I mean, what did you say? I just said I found that letter on the laptop. And she was shocked and didn't obviously

want me to find out that way she was planning on sitting down and telling us in person and wanted to wait until like after the holidays um but i i i wasn't equipped emotionally to sort of like figure out how to compartmentalize it. Like I just, I didn't exactly, I just, I didn't know how to handle it other than to feel, um,

it wasn't that my mother was leaving my father for a woman. It was that my mother was leaving my father. They had been together since high school. They'd been married for 30 years. I like, I was one of the only people in my orbit that like, whose parents were still together. So I had a sense of pride about that. So that was what was so devastating and that my mom had had this affair,

could have been with anybody. So I spent a whole year kind of icing her out, which was terrible, but I didn't know what else to do. And did that relationship succeed? Yes. They're still together. Wow. Yeah. So she knew. She knew, yeah. They've been together ever since.

And my dad, like six months later, met my stepmom. And they're together. And they've been together, yeah, just as long. Do they talk to each other? They do, yeah. They were all at my wedding and I saw my stepmom and my mom like on the dance floor together. Really? Yeah.

My dad and my mom's partner dancing together. So it's, I don't think they talk often, but you know. But it's not acrimonious. It's not acrimonious. They have three children together, so. And they're happier? So much happier. It's crazy how that happens in life.

Life, yeah. They're with who they're meant to be with yeah they're like more fully realized more content yeah yeah it's painful these transitions and people get hurt necessary yeah it's hard to make those choices you know it is uh And like, how were you brought up religious wise? Somewhat Catholic, but like fair weather Catholic. But were you, would you say your parents were progressive? Because like, was the fact that she was with a woman sort of like, what? It was, it was surprising, but not, no one was like judgmental about it. And both of my brothers are gay as well.

Oh, okay. And they had come out at that point before my mom had. So it was shocking just on the surface. Right, but you weren't a conservative family. No, no, no, not at all. Right, right. And both your folks are Catholic? No, my dad never went to church with us.

It was always my mom's side. She's Catholic? Mm-hmm. She was half Catholic, half Jewish. Huh. My grandmother was Catholic and my grandfather was Jewish. Did you know them? I did, yeah.

Yeah? Yeah, my mother's parents I knew. My father's parents died when I was really little. So you knew your Jewish grandfather? I did, yeah. Was he like classic Jewish grandfather? I mean, he died when I was eight. So I didn't get to know him. I mean, I have vague memories of him.

But I mean, I guess. She was brought up Catholic. She celebrated like Hanukkah and Christmas is how she always put it. Yeah. Well, this is all very exciting. And then right around this time with the movies and everything else, then you start the relationship with Ryan.

Mm-hmm. That time. Like the next year, yeah. Did you find that the emotional upheaval of all that stuff, did that play into you gravitating? It was the largest factor of, you know, when you feel out of control in a situation i can't control my immediate family and the fact that like this particular situation sort

of blew us up in a way yeah so how long for like a year you said or um i mean kind of indefinitely like it's never it's fractured us in a way that will never be the same. Obviously we won't, we don't spend holidays all together anymore. It's, and I guess that's sort of an inevitability anyway, as you get older and you have your own family. So I guess I kind of just thought, well, I'll, I'll create my own family. I'll start my own family. Yeah. My, my life seems out of control and this guy seems way out of control. In retrospect, yes.

And I'm not here to throw Ryan under the bus, but it's just that from everything I've heard about him, he's notoriously... His reputation precedes him. It does, it does a bit. But that's interesting because the trauma of that experience at the age you were at is not completely, you know, like emotionally life-threatening, but it is trauma.

It is trauma. Yeah. And it is sort of a kind of like, you know, like what else didn't I know? And like, you know, was it all a lie kind of stuff? Absolutely. You reevaluate your entire life and upbringing. And yeah. So this was like my way of steadying myself.

But did you ever talk to your mother about like, was this a surprise to her? Yes. Of course. I mean, I talked to her like at the end of that year. And it was a surprise to her. It wasn't something she was looking for it was wasn't she likes to say that she's she's not into labels so she she just fell in love with this person and she could have been a woman or a man what does that person do um she is a tennis instructor

they live in sedona oh live in arizona they move from. They moved from Florida to Arizona. A lot of red rocks. Lots of red rocks. And crystals. And hiking. Like-minded people. Yep. The one place in Arizona where there might be like-minded people. Yes. The one little dot of blue.

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's, so now, like, you, after that, that's what brought on the sort of, like, I've got to figure out where I'm at in my life. And you meet Ryan where? We met on tour. I was in Minneapolis, and he was in Minneapolis. And I remember we were- Great city.

Love Minneapolis. I love it. Love. And we were driving in, and one of the guys in my band was like, hey, Ryan Adams and the Cardinals is playing at that theater. And I didn't know his music really. Sure. But the band was really excited. And we were.

He's a band's band. He's like a musician's musician. Sure. Yeah. So we were playing really early that day. And we reached out to his people to see if we could go to the show. You were playing really early. Like why?

Because of for kids? I don't know. It was. I think it was like an all ages show or something so i think like we were done by eight o'clock or something so we managed to be able to go to his show and i remember we sat in the audience and and it was good but i it was like the stage was really dark and they were i remember in like a semi-circle and i didn't even know which one was Ryan, but I was like, wow, that was great. They're tight.

They were tight. Yeah. And afterwards we got sort of ushered into this area where they said we were going to meet the band. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And at the time, my friend Chris Stills, his dad is Steven Stills. He was on tour and opening up for us. And he's like-

You still friends with him? I haven't seen Chris in forever. I wonder how his dad's doing. I think his dad was losing his hearing last I heard. No way. Steve Stills is one of the great voices. Well, Chris sounds exactly like his father. He's got an incredible voice.

Is he still doing it? He is. He's still making music. I've got to get hip to that. He's like, I know Ryan. I worked withyan on one of his records or something yeah and someone comes back to us while we're standing there waiting for the rest of the band comes out but no ryan they're like he felt like he had a really bad show and he doesn't want to meet anybody i was like oh okay i'm like a kid i'm like i don't okay fine that my guy. So they tell us to go. If we want to say hi to him, we can go on the bus. So we, Chris and I are like, okay. So we hop on the bus and Ryan's back there and he's on his laptop and he has these glasses on and crazy hair and like a flannel shirt.

And he shows us some ridiculous movie he's made on his laptop called like pizza ninja or something that he made with his bandmates on his digital camera okay and i'm telling you i was just like this is this guy is the most bizarre person but his mind i am i've never met anyone like him yeah and as a 23 year old impressionable yeah young woman that's how old you were. I was really taken by him. Yeah. Yeah. I just like, I had never met someone who had that lens on the world. Uh-huh. And.

Blew your mind. Blew my mind. And you were in. I mean, just, just, he was so unabashedly like himself, I guess. Yeah. And I left and I remember turning to Chris and I was like, I really like him. Uh-huh. And I left and I remember turning to Chris and I was like, I really like him. And he was like, kind of a little, kind of told me like, you know what? How old was he at that time? Oh my gosh.

He's 10 years older than me. So he was like in his mid thirties. Yeah. And, and, but that was it. You were smitten. I was a smitten mitten. And then you started dating somehow. Yeah.

Shortly there, a couple months after that. Yeah. We're out here? We started dating. He lived in New York. So we sort of dated. Like, I would go to New York. And you were living out here then?

I was living out here, yeah. I've been out here the whole time. The whole time. Since what? 99. Since the first record? Mm-hmm. So you marry Ryan.

Mm-hmm. And as you look back on it it in terms of your own creativity, I mean, I imagine musically it must have been a bit intimidating. Yes. Yes and no. I mean, without getting too into the weeds, he is an incredibly prolific writer. He's constantly writing, constantly writing music and poetry. I think that's how he stays sane.

Yeah, I, I, I guess. I just, I think that that's, I don't know him. I think that's his,

um, that's just where he operates. Yes, right. That's where he feels comfortable. It's,

it's ingrained in the fiber of who he is. If he's not creating, he's not himself. right. Um, so it was intimidating, it's ingrained in the fiber of who he is. If he's not creating, he's not himself. So it was intimidating, but also it became the norm. So after a while, that kind of faded,

and you're like, oh, this is just my husband, and he's writing another song. It's not that big of a deal. And what were you doing? I was living my life for him. Yeah. Well, codependency action? Yeah.

Taking care of the... Being the mother. Yeah. Yeah. And that becomes... It's an entirely unhealthy dynamic. Well, yeah, because you lose yourself. Oh, I had no sense of self. I was imperceptible.

I was so small in my own world yeah it's interesting now did you find that can you identify that dynamic in your parents or do you know it just was a surprise the the kind of enabling uh trying to control the person thing or trying to take care of somebody who doesn't quite take care of themselves. Yeah. I think a little bit of all of that. It made me feel worthy. It made me feel like I had value if I could be there for somebody else and serve their needs, you know, because it, I think it like, not to go down again, a rabbit hole with like therapy, but I think it goes back to feeling undeserving of what I've had in my life, you know, as a young person and finding success.

And I think there was part of me that's like, okay, well, this part of my life is I'm okay to not live for myself right now. This guy needs me. He needs me. Yeah. And I know how to do that. I know how, this person who's estranged from their family, like, I can show them what it's like to have a normal life and to celebrate birthdays and holidays and go on vacations. And this is after your family is shattered. After my family, exactly.

It's like, let's do this together. And I thought that that's how it was going to sort of unfold, but it didn't. So you ended up a depleted husk of a person? Yes. Essentially. Yeah, just sort of like devoid of self and running into things like a codependency sort of bottom hitting you know you know sometimes you know people get clumsy they wreck cars they you know because you were no good i didn't do that yeah um i think it like it it my codependency fed into his codependency and

some other issues underlying issues that like it was just the perfect cacophony of yeah of madness yeah and it really was i was so not serving myself and and what was the moment where you're like yeah i gotta get out i felt i felt like i was drowning no yeah i just it was so untenable and unsustainable yeah and i was so lonely i was so sad i was so away all the time or you were lonely with him i was lonely with him oh it's the worst the worst there's nothing worse so i yeah because like part of you detaches and there's just this talking thing there. Yeah. And you're like, that's talking again.

Yeah. What am I doing? You're thinking about being other places. And I just, I knew that this wasn't the rest of my life. And I knew that this was not the person I was supposed to be with. I was not the person I was meant to be. Was there a lot of drama? Yeah.

Like yelling and screaming and stuff? Yeah. And I am not a dramatic person. I'm not a fighter. Did you become one? I would try to fight back, but I'm not. I hate confrontation. I shrink from it. I avoid it at all costs. I'm not good at it. And you're living with it. And I lived with it. And I'm just like, it's just not built in the fiber of who I am. I'm not good at it. And you're living with it. And I lived with it. And I'm just like, it's just not built in the fiber of who I am. I'm not good at it. I don't, I can't find my words. Yeah. So you just, did you, were you like, I'm done?

Kind of. Yeah. If it were only that easy, but unfortunately it was not. I'm, it just was a lot of, of endless conversations. Crying? Conversations in a loop, crying. Yeah, all of that. Yeah, for months and months and months and months and months,

even after filing for divorce. Sorry you went through that. Thank you. It's okay. It's all part of it. I needed it. How long were you with him? Almost seven years.

Oh, so that's a long run. It's a long run. So for about three and a long run it's a long run so that like so you know for about three and a half it's great and then you know for about three it's just like oh and then for about a half it's like i might kill myself more or less yeah yeah i've had i had two seven eight year ones wow where you know where it's it's weird because you realize at some point in the middle of those things where you're like, I shouldn't be, this shouldn't keep going. No.

It's not fair to anybody. Yeah, and then it goes on for years more. Oh, man. Yeah. What'd you do when you got out? Six months later, I got This Is Us. Oh, so this is relatively fresh. Yeah.

I mean, it's three years. Right, right, right. Yeah, three and a half years. But in the span of a lifetime. It's crazy, though, like when you're not putting yourself, when you're not prioritizing yourself and your needs in life. I couldn't get traction with anything. I was trying so desperately. I was like, traction with anything. I was trying so desperately. I was like, all I want.

Before Ryan. With Ryan. I was like, all I want is to be able to do a television show. Hopefully here in Los Angeles. Have a nice job. Have a nice job. Insurance. Well, I can just like, I can come home every night.

My husband's here and he'll be on the road. Were you thinking about kids? Yes. I desperately wanted a family. Boy, did you dodge a bullet yeah i think i think my i just innately knew like let's wait for things to settle down and find some even ground before i venture into that do you ever think about that oh yeah all the time i mean well i'm just glad as everyone said like you're so lucky that you didn't have children

because you're forever tied to that person and i don't want to be at all so um now you're back fresh slate so now it's a fresh slate and so would you call that time though like career wise were you because you'd made this decision to sort of lock into something emotionally that you could at least i don't know if control is the right word, but rebuild for yourself, right? And you kind of prioritize that over everything. I did. And I didn't really have a choice. I knew that I couldn't be in that relationship. It wouldn't sustain itself if I was working as well, because there'd be glimmers of that of me. I would do little jobs. It's not like I completely stopped working, but I would do things here or

there, but it became abundantly clear while I was working, things would completely fall apart at home. Really? Yeah. So it showed me. In what way? It just, you know, if you're not there to take care of someone, essentially. Who needs that?

Who needs it? Then everything. Emotionally, literally. So you get estranged inside a week. Yeah. Like you come home and you're like, what's good? Or just like endless. I mean, I hate to be so personal, but it's like endless.

Like I couldn't do my job because there was just a constant stream of trying to pay attention to this person who needed me. Yeah. And who wouldn't let me do anything else because. That's rough. Yeah, it was. So you're kind of stifled. Completely. Hostage situation. me do anything else because that's rough yeah it was so you're kind of uh you were kind of stifled completely hostage situation so it was like i knew that i wouldn't i even had my my best friend at the time was like you will not be able to work or find any semblance of success while you're in this

marriage and i remember sort of like poo-pooing her at the time but also kind of quietly agreeing yeah real and and so i'm telling you those six months after I filed for divorce and the divorce was final, I got the show. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess you were emotionally ready. I was ready. You had a lot of stuff.

I had a lot of baggage to bring to the table. A lot of stuff inside. Lots of tears right underneath the surface. Multi-generational tears. Yeah. You had enough emotional baggage-generational tears. Yeah. You had enough emotional baggage to span three generations. Yes. That's what we do.

That's what you do. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm glad you, it's one of those things where you, you know, and I have them too in my life where you have these relationships that if you really just think like just one or two things could have happened and that road would have been rough. Entirely different, yeah. So, and the show got, what was the audition process like for This Is Us?

They age you really well, you do a good job with it. They do a great job, right? Well, it's the interesting thing about you and like the small amount of research that i did was that it seems that you you were able to you know stand out in a lot of the roles you did in movies that may not have been great thanks yeah i mean like well it seems like you know for someone like roger ebert to consistently like you in things that he didn't like. I mean, that's a tough audience.

It is a tough audience, yeah. But he did, didn't he? Yeah. And so you have a unique thing as an actress. And this is great that you can really kind of work the whole range of it. Yeah. But were they looking for you or did you have to? No, I auditioned. It was a big process?

Mm-hmm. It was one of those pilots that was what they call off-cycle. Were they looking for you or did you have to? No, I auditioned. Like it was a big process? It was one of those pilots that was what they call off cycle. So I remember it was like November and usually, you know, pilot season here in this town is like January to April. Now it's all the time now. Well, yeah, with the different streaming platforms and stuff, but like traditional network pilot season is the beginning of the year. Was it February? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, it's like January to April or something. So I auditioned in November, and I was at the beginning of the audition process.

And the feedback was like, they really liked you, but now they're going to go to New York and Chicago and read a bunch of other girls. So I didn't hear anything for about six weeks. Uh-huh. And then they came back and said, you know, we'd love to read you and a handful of other girls with a bunch of guys that we're considering. And just, you know, prepare your sides. And I did. And I went in and the only guy I read with was Milo. And I felt good about that because I heard going in, like, he's the guy to beat.

They love him. Everybody wants him to get the part. That's so harsh. It's the worst that process of pleasing studio executives and reading in front of like a room full of just judgy faces like flop sweat i can't just thinking about it the worst and testing for that stuff the worst what i'm terrible in the room too you are yeah i just i feel like i'm like just give me the part i can do it like just i'll show up on set and i'll show you but just believe just but trust me in the room too. You are? Yeah, I just, I feel like, I'm like, just give me the part. I can do it.

Like just, I'll show up on set and I'll show you. Just believe me. But trust me, okay? But it's like being terrible at standardized tests but knowing that you have

the capacity to like do the work. Sure, sure. I just, auditions suck. Oh, you must have been so happy to get it. How long did it go on

for? The audition? Well, the process. It was like probably another month yeah that's a lot yeah now did you like when you read the pilot were you like oh this is good yeah oh yeah i did because i i remember i had just signed with a new agent and we had talked a lot about like let's not do traditional pilot season because i had done it like the business is going

a different direction totally but also i'd like done it three or four times and had been disappointed and my pilots hadn't gotten picked up and I was so just like shattered yeah and two weeks after that meeting I get this like script for an NBC pilot called the untitled Dan Fogelman project and I was like what we just talked about like not doing network pilot season and doing network pilots easy. But I knew my folks were on it. And of course, I read it. And immediately, it was like, this is incredible writing. And the concept. And the concept.

It left the door wide open to go in a million different directions. Yeah. So I wanted to be a part of it. And you are. Yeah. so I wanted to be a part of it and you are and it's like it's a tremendous hit on a network

show and that doesn't happen that much anymore I think we're a dying breed we are, no absolutely and it keeps winning all these prizes because it's so emotional people are acting that shit out of it

trying our best. And tell Sullivan, I'm sorry if I upset him. I'll let him know. Didn't I apologize? You did, you did, you did. I mean, I know who he is now because I've watched

the show a few times. He's very good in it. He's funny. He's the best. Yeah, he's great. And he was also on that thing on HBO, right? He was.

He was also on The Nick, which I haven't seen, but everybody raves about. But, okay, so you never made a record you were on ryan's record but you guys never did a record together you never did any of his songs no no but i would sing on his records yeah it's weird that he never wrote enough songs for you okay so no comment but you you're you are going to return to music? I am. Yeah. And what are your ideas about that for yourself?

I mean, I think the great thing about not having any sort of expectation from the outside world is it gives you the utmost freedom to do whatever you want. Are you in the studio? I'm going to during our hiatus. And you're writing songs? Mm-hmm. I have a good handful right now, yeah. And how are they?

Are they personal? How are they different? Yeah, they're very personal. But I mean, I feel like I've lived a life in the last 10 years. I have plenty to say. I think I've also like... Sounds like you could write a country record. I could write a country record.

It is. It'll be like a nouveau country record. You know, it'll be like a Jason Isbell record. Yeah. How good is that guy? I love Jason. Such a great guy. He really is.

Have you had him in? I have. That was a big show. Oh, my God. I got to listen to that one. I was in, that's a great thing because not unlike most things, like I had to catch up on him, but we were in Minneapolis together. Like we were both on that live that live radio show wits.

Oh, wow. So like I took that opportunity to interview him. So he had been on the road and he performed on, you know, I did a comedy or whatever I did on that show. And he's saying, and then that night I was going to record him.

Cause I got a thing that I travel with when I do them on the road. And I was in, it was like 1230 at night. We were in a hotel room and I was, and he was, you know, beat, you know, from the road. And I was in, it was like 1230 at night. We were in a hotel room and I was, and he was, you know, beat, you know,

from the road. But we had this great conversation and then he performed that song elephant. Oh, but like literally I was in the hotel room. I could cry thinking about it. I was holding a mic to his mouth and holding one to the guitar while he's saying that in front of him. And I recorded it like that. And it was intense, man.

He's so special. He's such a special writer. No kidding. Yeah. So, yeah, such a talent. He went on tour with Ryan and I met him then. This was years ago. With his band then?

No. Solo? Yeah, he was solo. You choked up from that. Just thinking about that song. I mean, just thinking about that song. I know. I remember because Ryan was going to produce that record at one point in time.

It was a whole thing. Yeah. So I heard those demos. Oh, yeah. And just remember thinking like, and watching him play some of them on stage. Yeah. Like it was, he's an artist for this generation. Just great.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you should get him involved in your record. See if Jason will come out and do it, too. I mean, he's a busy gentleman. And I want to work with my husband. Yeah.

Yeah. The one that wants to work with you? But I want to make music with Taylor. I want to make music with Mike. I mean, I have, a whole, like Blake. Like there's so many friends of ours. Yeah. Well, that Dawes world is a whole world unto itself.

It is. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole, there's such an incredible scene of like young musicians here in Los Angeles. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. To tap into. Yeah, Blake's great.

He's great. Yeah. He's a prodigy. He's a genius. He's a genius. Great producer. He is. Well, I'm excited to hear what songs you have about your life.

Yeah. What are you thinking? When are you going to get that? I mean, our hiatus is like March through June, so hopefully have something out this year. And you got a studio at the house? No, we don't. Really? We'll go to like East West or some cool studio out here and and you got a studio at the house no we don't really we'll go to like

go to like east west or some cool studio out here get some of the fellas yeah get some of the fellas and do the record do it up

we'll bring some ladies too if you can sure yeah we'll include them too okay good good talking to you Mandy you too

thanks for this yep okay that was that was that was great we dished a bit Yep. Okay, that was great. We dished a bit. Okay, you know, she dished a bit, you know, but relationships are tough, man. Crazy and sometimes fucked up.

But it was nice to learn more about her. This Is Us is the show she's on, obviously. And of course, many people love it. Airs Tuesday nights at 9 p.m. Eastern on NBC. And don't forget, grab yourself a vinyl copy of my stand-up special, Too Real, as well as posters, T-shirts, mugs, books, whatever, at podswag.com slash WTF, or click on the merch link at WTFpod.com. Also, tour dates, WTFpod.com slash tour. I'm going to be in the UK,

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