WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 996 - Jon Bernthal

Episode Date: February 21, 2019

Jon Bernthal’s path to becoming an actor was less about following a dream than about getting out of a nightmare. Before he was The Punisher or other streetwise characters in The Wolf of Wall Street and The Walking Dead, Jon was a kid with a nose for trouble and a rebelliousness that pulled toward violence. It was heading in a bad direction but thanks to an acting teacher, a journey to Russia and Chekhov’s The Seagull, Jon turned it around. Marc and Jon also talk about his love of making “pure theater” in New York, how he transitioned into TV and movies without compromising his vision, and what happened when the darkness of his early life came back. This episode is sponsored by Hulu and Capterra. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf as of this recording which when you hear it will have been a week ago, my cat is still is doing amazingly well. I'll let you know next week when we're back on schedule and Brendan's back from vacation. But that aside, we're coming up on our 1000th episode. OK, thousand episodes of this show.

And I like to read emails on the air occasionally. So I want to hear any questions you might have as we approach that milestone show 1000 you can send your questions to wtfpod at gmail.com any questions about any of the 1000 episodes of the show or any past guests that you want uh some follow-up on any questions you have for me personally, if they're nice or, or yeah, you can be challenging. Just don't be a fucking asshole. Questions about what goes on off the mic are fine.

And behind the scenes, you can, some of that or any advice you think I might be able to dispense. I'm willing to give it a shot. Send those to me at WTF pod at gmail.com. If you can get us to questions by the end of the month, that would be helpful. Also, Jon Bernthal is on the show today.

Jon Bernthal is an actor. You probably know him from The Walking Dead, the first season or two of The Walking Dead. He's now in the third season of The Punisher, which is available on Netflix. You can stream all three seasons right now. He is The Punisher. He was in The Wolf of Wall Street. You'll recognize him when you look him up or you've seen him he's an intense fella usually plays a angry dude of some sort oh he's in the first Sicario movie too I like him I like him he's he's uh he's he's all in and uh

it was exciting to get to talk to him so you'll get to hear that pretty pretty unique story really uh in terms of of life and acting. It involves Russia. That's what I'm saying. There was collusion between John Bernthal and Russia. But I would like to add this that I am recording this a week out because, as you know, if you listen to this show regularly, my my business partner and producer, Brendan, is on vacation with his wife. So we did these shows uh last week so i'm i'm wary i'm wary to sort of go into any immediate stories that are happening today because they're

a week old and who the fuck knows what could happen in a week right not just with me with you with the world with this country and who knows so i can't really do a a show like that where i'm engaged in well I'm immediately engaged what I'm talking to you about right now but it is a week ago does that make any sense I would like to get back to it I got a couple things that happened this this if some of you were listening a while back I got an email from this guy Jacob and he basically was talking about me doing he saw me in Bloomington at this small club up there, great club called the Comedy Attic.

And he said, I saw you in Bloomington last year working out your new stuff. And at one point, you got up from the stool, walked to the side of the stage, looked at me and said, how's it going? In that moment, I thought you were asking how I was doing. So I said something along the lines of good. You said, okay, went back to the stool and continued on with the show. Now, I also told you after that, if I said that, if my recollection was correct, I would not have done that unless I thought this dude was threatening somehow. If I projected some sort of threat that I saw him as somebody, he was probably alone. Maybe he,

you know, I thought he was going to kick my ass or he got, he gave me stink eye. I don't know what it was, but I knew that if I was doing that, there's only one reason I do that is to disarm a potential situation that I'm making up in my head. And, and he, he wrote me back after I said that, I told you guys that what I thought it was. He said, Hey, Mark, my bet is on on i was a scary looking dude i've got long hair and a long beard and something about the way my face is i just look angry a lot of the time i get a lot of questions like what's wrong or what are you thinking which is what i did from stage when nothing is wrong and i'm not really thinking anything i stuck around after the show and i got to tell you that i loved attempting normal especially the lou reed guitar pick story and i got a quick picture of you and attached it and yeah even

smiling in that picture i look a little scary angry now i wish you could see this picture because this guy he's a big boy he's got long hair a beard looks like he just break me like a fucking stick like a twig just twist me up like a pretzel just like crush me in his hand so i guess i'm just tooting my own horn that i knew exactly why i asked a guy in the audience how you doing because he was he looked like he could do some harm turns out not a bad guy apparently not a bad guy weird another thing happened today that i think is sort of a evergreenish kind of thing it's not it's not time relative i got a call on my on my cell phone i was in my car i didn't recognize the number but i'm you know i'm an

idiot if it i know what spam numbers look like but this looked like it was local they saw i picked it up it was just some guy going hey i don't is this mark maron and i'm like who's this is this mark maron well this if this is mark maron i'm so and so i you know i'm from he's from a talent agency a big one his name was pete and i'm like what's this about he's like i just saw you i was at the art show at the freeze my uh sarah the painter had a piece a an installation over at freeze la in the back lot at paramount which is where they had the fair was pretty amazing and i'm like and i was on the other line with brendan my god hold on a minute i got back on i'm like now what is this who is this

because my name is pete so and so from this agency that is i gotta tell you a story man now i'm going to preface this by saying rarely in my life has my being an asshole uh necessarily done anybody any real good myself included but this guy out of nowhere says look man you uh i just got it you know is this you is this your number i'm like just what so you got 30 seconds i'm like yeah, yeah, come on. Yes. He goes, all right. I just figured he was, he was legit on some level. I mean, it wasn't great that he was calling me, but he was doing, he says, look, man, back in, I was, uh, I went to Emerson college. It was like before school even started. I had a crush on this girl or I, I just saw this girl and I really liked her and and uh you know we ended up like you know

having lunch one day I'm paraphrasing a story and she decided it wasn't scary that we could hang out one night we went to Harvard Square I was like 17 or 18 years old the guy's 45 now so what is that 20 30 years ago almost almost 30 years ago we're walking around Harvard Square the doorman at Catch a Rising Star says you want to go to a comedy show i didn't i didn't know if i was old enough or whatever but we got in they walked us in this is the first night he's with this girl he says he walked in they they seat him right up front and uh and he says he's with this girl he doesn't really know it's like a first date so the guy the doorman probably thought he was doing him a favor he said the first guy on stage was me and i did about five minutes of material then i just opened up on him and i

just fucking ripped into him for 15 minutes 50 he said he said it was devastating just leveled him just like and at that point like what was that like 20 that long ago i must have been just a fucking just a bully just a fuck i just i probably for no reason just eviscerated this guy is that the word but uh apparently after the show this woman who this was their first date said you didn't cry you didn't uh you didn't fall apart you didn't come unhinged you didn't uh and and she said, I'm going to marry you someday. And now they've been married for like over 25 years. And he just wanted to call me because it reminded him, I guess, to thank me. I said, how'd you get my number?

He says, I'm a crazy agent guy. I've got everyone's number. But that was nice, I guess. It was a little weird, a little without boundary, but, uh, it's rare that,

uh, you know, you're, you're a complete dick and it, it brings people together and that's a lasting bond. I'm sure I didn't have anything to do with the, with the thing lasting, but anyway, that was that story.

And that was that email. All right. So John Bernthal, I always liked him on screen i always like john berthal on screen and i was happy to uh to talk to him he seemed intense i was wondering uh you know what was in there what's in that guy huh he's uh he's in the punisher he is the punisher the third season of the punisher is now available on Netflix and you can stream all the seasons right now. And this is me talking to the nicer than you think, Jon Bernthal.

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in Rock city at torontorock.com so oh hi when did you move up there how long long have you lived up there? You know, I moved up there, we've been there about five years. I did a movie, I did this movie Sicario, just a small part with, and Emily Blunt was in it. Yeah, you were a morally bankrupt fucker. It's kind of my thing, man. It's kind of my MO. But she lived up there, and you know, I'd been in in in venice for uh years you know since

since about 2003 yeah and and and and you know i had three kids at this point and really sort of wanted a big uh life change and i was talking to to emily about it and she said you know make the move to oh hi it's incredible we went up there and i saw a house i fell in love with it and and that was kind of it and then the second i moved up there she moved saw a house. I fell in love with it. And that was kind of it. And then the second I moved up there, she moved out. Oh, really? That's how you left? Yeah. It wasn't that serious. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know, man. So you drove down here today? I drove in last night, actually. Yeah. Yeah. Saw some friends last night, which is something I

never, ever- Never do? Yeah. Because you had a good excuse? Some old friends. Yeah. It was great. It it was great I went to a really cool uh a really cool bar at Union Station called the Streamliner oh yeah like completely untouched from back in the day oh really really cool one of those old-timey drinking bars yeah yeah I don't drink man but it was it was uh it was cool to sort of be there and then when everybody gets drunk I take off you never? I definitely did. I definitely did, but no longer. Really? No longer, yeah.

You got sober. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In some ways. I mean, I still will smoke a little marijuana from time to time, you know what I mean? Sometimes. Right. Oh, so it's not like you're not, because I have been sober a long time. I know.

But you're not like, bleh, no, nothing. It was really, for me, a big, big kind of life change that kind of all happened at once. And the drinking wasn't necessarily my problem, but it was the things that would happen when I drank. I guess that's the same for everybody. But I really needed to cut the other shit out. So drinking helped with that. Sure, right. Yeah, yeah.

It was a few days. Yeah, you know, I mean, it was right around 2009. It was July 3rd, 2009. I'd gotten in a bunch of trouble sort of growing up. Yeah. Kind of different episodes of some street violence, and there was one more thing, and it happened at a time in my life where it just had no excuse to happen.

You're too old for that shit? Way too old then. And it was weird. It was kind of like an acute sort of thing, and this one event happened, and that was kind of it. I had a real honest conversation with myself, and then it was just done. Well, because you probably realize,

well, that's the thing I always realize is that when you're doing shit, your odds of getting fucking dying one way or the other or getting into trouble that you can't get out of is exponentially much higher. 100%. Especially when you've been in trouble and when you've been in that situation and you've lost friends and you've seen all this shit and you just keep on pushing it and pushing it and pushing it and then sometimes it's something that maybe compared to other shit you've done is quite benign right but this one thing for this one reason it's all about fucking timing that's right you know something happens and you stare yourself in the face and you talk to somebody else and you're just like hey man you

get me out of this one i'm fucking done and that's that's that's what happened to me and really everything in my life shifted after that yeah yeah i don't know how many of those you get that get me out of this one right such a blessing if you get it and you're aware of it you actually do something about it you know what i mean well wait so you were some sort of uh fuck up kid uh yeah look man where'd you grow up i grew up in dc in washington dc do you know dc a little yeah yeah i mean i know i mean i know i've been to the city a few times i've been to Look, man. Where'd you grow up? I grew up in D.C., Washington, D.C. Do you know D.C.? A little. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know I've been to the city a few times. I've been to Alexandria a few times.

I wouldn't know it to sort of like if you were to start naming neighborhoods, I wouldn't know it. Right, right. But it wasn't like you grew up in the bad side of town or anything. No. I mean, D.C. was a crazy place, man. I absolutely didn't. I came from a really, really good home, a lot of, a lot of support, you know, great parents, great brothers. My parents, my parents were also foster parents. They brought in kids. Really? Wait, so wait, so your dad, like what was, what was the

family business? The family, so my old man, my old man was a lawyer, but he kind of, he built himself up. He sort of, you know, he came, got from Syracuse, he's sort of blue collar guy. And then he became a lawyer and became more and more and more and more successful as we got older, which was kind of a crazy thing to see. And his own firm or no, no, nothing like that. Nothing like that. But, but, uh, you know, he, he, he became, uh, it's funny cause he was one of those self-hating lawyers, you know, and, you know, look, he deep down, he came from a very different world. And I think growing up, he sort of looked at, you know, lawyers with their fancy cars and their fancy houses and all this bullshit. And, you know, nobody hated a lawyer more than him.

And slowly but surely, you know, he kind of became exactly that as we got older. Slippery slope. Yeah, man. It starts to look good and feel good, you know. kind of became exactly that as as as we got older slippery slope yeah man it starts to look good and feel good you know that's right that's right and and you know he ended up he ended up giving it all up and uh you know he retired and uh dedicated his life to the humane society then he was the uh chairman of the board of humane animal guy it's a big time it loves animals way more than people, man. Yeah. So his family, does your mom work? My mom was, worked with troubled teens, clinical psychoanalyst, social worker, all that. Really? Mm-hmm.

Social work, it fascinates me. I don't think they get enough credit. I totally agree, man. You know what I mean? I totally agree. And I think D.C. at the time, you know, when you look at D.C. in the 80s and the 90s, it was, you know, it was an extremely rough city and and a fascinating city a conglomeration of all these different kinds of people coming together and and uh you know i i i

found that um you know very small city too so we're all kind of on top of each other and if you're sort of an adventure it doesn't really matter what part of dc you grow up in if you uh if you have a a sort of a knack for adventure and you want to get into shit, it's all right there. But you were the one in your family. I mean, how many brothers and sisters do you have? I have two blood brothers, and they're both enormously successful guys. I got a little brother who's an orthopedic oncologist, a surgeon at UCLA, like Princeton, basketball player. You guys get along?

They're my best friends in the world. And what's the other brother do? Super successful businessman. What was in journalism, he was a producer for NBC, won a bunch of Emmys and left and started a market research company. Were here in New York or here? All here. We all lived in Venice.

Then my four best friends from DC, we all moved out to Venice. What about your folks? They are back in DC, but they come out a lot. So they're originally from upstate New York, your old man? My old man, yeah. From working class Jews? Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right.

From the peasant stock? That's exactly right. Ashkenazi alpha Jew? Big time, brother. Big time. Big time. Big time. Mobsters and plumbers.

That's exactly, you fucking hit it on the head. That's all I'm going to say about that, but you hit it, brother. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what about your mom? Is it that same thing? Kind of. You know, my mom's family is interesting. They're, you know, Texas and Missouri. Jews?

Yeah, man. And like really, you know. I love that, man. Farmers and soldiers and, you know. I love that, man. Farmers and soldiers and, you know. Isn't that wild? Yeah. It's funny because it's like the idea, you know, where I grew up and how I grew up, there weren't, you know, Jewish culture. It was just to me, it seemed much more of a New York thing, you know. Yeah, and upper class too.

Like there's that moment where you realize, you know, as a Jew that, you know, the generations had to come up to that. Big time. And there's all these, you know, just, I remember I worked at a Jewish deli outside of Boston when I was in college, just an old Jewish deli. And these guys, cops would come in, Jewish cops. And it's like there was a whole generation before our parents' generation that really scrapped. You know, there was a bunch of Jewish boxers. Yeah, my dad's uncle was golden

gloves champion in new york you know they you know they every day walking to school they had to fight the italian kids and that's those are the stories that i grew up in you know they're you know they were they were you know i'd cut cousins who were robbing banks you know the whole thing man you know and it was a very different it's a sobering thing as a jew to realize that like it makes you feel good like you know what I mean like we're not all rich assholes that's right brother that's right that's right I talked to Tim Blake Nielsen he's Oklahoma Jew oh wow I didn't know I know man like his his parents you know got in got out under the the Nazi thing and they were relocated by that agency it's an old organization that was that was designed

to get Jews out of the pogroms and integrate it into the states, but they spread everybody out because they knew that they were going to come to get us at some point. So if we could relocate everybody in different parts, they'd have less of a shot at getting all of us. So his family ended up in Oklahoma City and they became oil Jews.

He was a wildcat or his grandfather, his maternal grandfather was out drilling oil wells and then became a huge oil guy. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Missouri and Texas Jews. I know Texas Jews. Do you?

El Paso, Houston. El Paso had a big Jewish community. I grew up in New Mexico. Right, right. No, I know that. So you do? Yeah. Did you do some research?

No, man. I'm a huge fan of your show. I love your show, man. And it's funny because Tim, he's the next one. Oh, yeah. And what's he doing? I skipped over that and listened to Maggie, you know, and I love that. I love that interview fan of your show. I love your show, man. And it's funny because Tim, he's the next one. Oh, yeah. I skipped over that and listened to Maggie, you know, and I love that. I love that interview. Oh, yeah.

Well, the thing about Tim, I didn't know anything because you just make assumptions about people. 100%. And then I did a little research and I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like a very eloquent, kind of mild-mannered Jewish guy from Oklahoma. Does he have an accent in real life? A little bit. Yeah?

Yeah, yeah. he sure does. Wow. All right, so you're growing up the black sheep, the troublemaker, and the lawyer's kid who's got problems. Is that you? I'd say that's fair, man. I'd say that's fair. I think, you know, it's – I really had, and I think what it comes down to is all kinds of deep, deep fears and shit like that.

Yeah. And all kinds of, you know, confusion. But, you know, I really was sort of fascinated at a young age with violence. And I was in this really, really ultra-violent city. And I was in ways protected by it in ways when I think of now my own kids living in a teeny town like Ojai. And I look at the way I grew up, you know, I mean, I was, I started, it didn't seem scary or anything to me at the time. But you know, I started getting mugged, you know, when I was probably 10, you know what I mean? And,

you know, taking the subway and the bus to school, you know, just shit that kids don't really do anymore. And, you know, I was always sort of attracted and wanted to be best friends with the kids that, you know, at first it was the kid that carried the switchblade. Then it was the kid that was dealing crack. Then it was the kids who carried guns. And I just, I always, that was sort of my thing. And I had this core of best friends that are still my best friends who, know are all you know successful guys in their own right and really got out of that but we just had a fucking nose for trouble man and it was just we we loved each other and we got each other's back and and and i think for for for young men it's it's a strange thing because we grew up at this time where our way of telling each other

we loved each other and kind of making love to each other with it for lack of a better word was to to sort of engage in these kinds of street fights with people and to stand up to anybody who wanted to and get each other's back right create the bond of loyalty and this shit man and it just it stayed with us way too fucking long in this in this totally but we weren't like it wasn't like you were in public school or were you no but we we were i mean dc's a dc's a strange place because you have you have conglomeration of kids i mean the school that i went to you know now strangely is where uh is where the obama daughters uh it's called sidwell and uh it was a quaker school which was fucking nuts that's one of those like aristocratic prep schools, right?

Kind of, yeah. I mean, the way that the school worked when I was going is that 30% of the kids would pay for the other 70% to go. Okay, so it wasn't really a prep school. It was, but it was really some of the main tenants of Quakerism, which I find fascinating, are diversity. And it wasn't just racially diverse or socioeconomic diverse, socioeconomically diverse, but you know, there was a, there was a huge pressure to be for, for behavioral diversity

and kids who got kicked out of public schools could come to this school. And there was this whole idea there that, you know, within this sort of utopian community, these kids who were dealing with real shit outside of the school, everything, you know, you were supported there and it was all about conflict resolution. And, and, and it was this place where everybody could come together and feel, you know, loved. And what you had is on campus, these kids who were engaging in real shit outside of school were really kind of proud and happy to be there. And interestingly, you know, what happened to that school, you know, when Bill Clinton won the election, he brought Chelsea to DC. And it was this thing where the DC public school system at that. And, you know, they took a look and, you know, Clinton had done so much for the public school system in Little Rock and they look politically, you know, where do we send her? Because we send her to one of

these sort of hoity-toity private schools. It's not going to look good. And they looked at our school and they said, wow, it's so diverse. And they got all kinds of kids. Let's send them there. And then the Secret Service took a closer look and they looked at some of these kids and they got all kinds of kids let's send them there and then the secret service took a closer look and they looked at some of these kids and they have legitimate criminal records and shit like that and what was crazy is that in in the 150 year history of the school there had never been an expulsion ever all disciplinary measures were student run and uh you know the students the student it was really a community of support. And what happened was when the national media spotlight was sort of focused on this school, in a two-year period, they kicked out like half the African-American males. They brought in a new administration. They just started kicking these kids out left and right.

And it was this crazy fucking, this crazy contradiction, this crazy, you know, it was everything that we had been initiated with. Was it a business move. I don't know. I mean, I think really what it, I think really what it was was PR, you know, and like all of a sudden, you know, now that you have the president's kid there, you know, all of a sudden we'll get a different, you know, you'll have more kids maybe paying full, full fight. And I'm not exactly sure what it was, but I know that right before our eyes,

I think, you know, you were there high school. I was there, man. And I'm not exactly sure what it was, but I know that right before our eyes, I think, you know, you were there in school. I was there, man. And I think that, you know, high school is always a sort of comingized racism that went play that took place from this institution that we totally believed in and totally preached. I mean, we sang the black national anthem in that school. We, we, you know, we were absolutely in and the kids believed in it big time, man. And, and, and what was interesting is the one sort of bit of the institution that they couldn't touch is, uh, I don't know if you know anything about Quakerism, but one of the things I really dig about it is, you know, there's no hierarchy in that religion, right? So there's no, there's no priest, there's no, so the way you pray is you all sit in silence. And if that, that of God moves any of you, anybody can get up and address the congregation at any time. So there's no, you know, there's no, no leaders, no followers.

the congregation at any time. I didn't know that. So there's no, you know, there's no, no leaders, no followers. Right. So once a week for sort of my entire upbringing, the entire school body, buildings and ground security coaches, teachers, students all sat in silence. And if anybody was moved, they would go and they would, they could address the entire community. Did you preach at times? I preached, I preached once. I got up once, man. I got up once. Because you felt God? You know, the time that I, I don't think I've ever fucking talked, but the time that I got up was, you know, I was sort of in and out of trouble with the law a bunch, even in high school.

A lot of fighting and bullshit and always in trouble with the school, always, you know, about to get kicked out. Usually fighting? A lot of that. A lot of that. Shoplifting? When I was younger, that was sort of the younger thing. No, never stole a car. No, we took the subway, man. You don't want to fuck around with a car. But I remember there was a guy, I was out in Maryland and DC is interesting because you have these pockets of Maryland and Virginia right there and you can be in DC. And then all of a sudden you can be in this little spot in Maryland or Virginia. And it's like, all of a sudden you're in the deep South, you know, it's, it's so,

it's so crazy where that, where that is. And we were in a spot like that. And I remember a man was there and started going after that. We were playing basketball, went after one of my friend's little brothers and, uh, grabbed him and threw him on the ground and we tried to get him off and he ran away and i remember i went and to a pay phone and i called the police and i was so ashamed that i caught that that that that i snitched on this guy and like this how fucking crazy the outlaw code you know what i mean and that's what i that's what i got up and talked about it yeah it's fucking embarrassing I just admitted that. No, it's a weird, you know, loyalty among thieves.

I guess so, man. I guess so. No, but I mean, not even thieves, but no, I understand the predicament. You know, man. There was part of you that thought, you know, we should have handled this. I guess so. I guess so. And think about the... If you had beat the shit out of him would you

felt better I don't think I would have got up in in me yeah you know what I mean I don't think so I don't think so but I I just uh look I'm I'm I'm extremely I'm extremely grateful for for how I grew up and I think that the challenge now is you know I I think in uh you know being an artist it i think that by itself saved my life changed the course of my life but let me ask you something about the the impulse when you guys were together when you guys were you know uh fighting other dudes i mean was it you know how did it has it did you do you see yourself as somebody who was a bully or just somebody who was fighting like-minded people? That was the thing with us. We were the guys that sort of our school was sort of the underdogs.

We were the laughingstock. We were the guys who our football team had never won a homecoming game in 100 years. You were on the football team? I was. I was. And I grew up with these guys. And our one team was. It's rare that a football player is the underdog in high school well well compared to the other schools they were smart oh just right compared to the other school

and that it was never within our school it was always other schools and and they would all uh you know we were never you know my best friend my best friend growing up greg zumas you know his he grew up his his mom's a brilliant writer you would write for The New Yorker, and his sister's a great writer. And he grew up in this unbelievably sort of progressive feminist home, and his mother's a Buddhist, and he was this guy. He never cursed. But literally one of the most legendary street fighters in the history of D.C. And he was one of these guys that never raised his voice. But when it was this thing like, hey, if you guys want to do this,

but we were never the guys that look for it. Never. We were never, we were just always willing, willing participants. But it's funny because it seems like you had a relatively, you know, thoughtful, progressive, like, you know, moral Jewish upbringing. And, you know And he did too. I guess there's a sort of, if you've got it in you to push back on that.

I mean, I guess I did it, but not in a fighting way. But for me, I liked gravitating to charismatic fuckheads. And I think my dad was kind of a charismatic fuckhead. But the thing was, I was never a fighter, but you do want you know there there's room in in in the progressive sort of upbringing where you're sort of like well i'm gonna i'm gonna you know i'm gonna push the envelope this way that's it you have the freedom to do that because you're not being disciplined like you know regular fucking

parents that's it that's it that's it and and man, to rebel is to rebel. And I think like, you know, violence is some sort of disruption. You want to disrupt. You want to disturb. And that can be something that you're doing to yourself. you have whatever they, you know, whatever makes your brother an orthopedic surgeon, you know, is, you know, you have that as well. So how are they reacting to all this shit? You know, I look, you know, my brothers have said it before. I, I, I can, you know, especially as a parent now, I, I cannot believe the patience that they fucking had with me. I mean, you know, there were times literally, you know, where my, I remember my mother, you know, my poor mom, my mother having to, you know, looking down the block, looking at what police, what cars are coming down, seeing if it was policemen telling her to hide, telling me to hide behind the kitchen counter, you know? Really? Yeah, man. And, and I, but I remember like,

you know, it's very progressive, but here's the thing, you know what I mean? But the thing is, is that, you know, like it really was, they really always did see something in me. I always felt loved by them. I always felt supported by them. And, you know, when I said to them, I mean, it's also just sort of a good life lesson of setting the bar really fucking low. Because, you know, I think a lot of kids who may have grown up the way I did, if they said, hey, I want to be an artist, I want to be an actor. Their parents would say, I fucking paid for this education. There's no way you're doing that.

But my folks were like, great. Yeah, he wants to do something. He wants to do something. He's not going to end up in jail. That's it. I mean, I guess that's really the fear is that, you know, you've got this kid that is this way. You know, how do we stop him from doing himself in for life?

So what was the white light moment that enabled you to find this other way? I think it all started for me. My mother had done a little bit of acting in college, and she always told me, you're an actor. She always told me that you could do it. You've got to be a pretty good bullshit artist to be a criminal in a progressive Jewish house.

You got to sell some line of bullshit to your parents. Right, right, right, right. But you know, man, I went to a small liberal arts college in upstate New York. Which one? It's called Skidmore. I know that one. That's good school, right?

Yeah, yeah, pretty good. I played baseball. That's how I got in. I ended up taking an acting class. There was a woman there named alma becker so you were the you were the jock in the acting class yeah man and i i took the class totally just because it would be easy just get rid of a fucking requirement and me being the asshole i was i thought i was taking a class it was going to be 300 people watching movies you know and i ended up with 10 theater majors i signed up for the wrong fucking thing.

You know what I mean? And, uh, you're kind of a dick. It totally, totally. Uh, but I ended up in this class and, and, uh, you know, the, the Alma saw something in me. She really saved my life, man. She, she, uh, she put me in my first play. Um, she was the one when I couldn't finish school, I'd gotten into some trouble.

I couldn't finish school there. I had gotten in trouble. I couldn't finish school. What trouble there? I had gotten in trouble back before I had gone to college and was sort of hanging over me the whole time I was there. What, you got busted? There was a fight, yeah, a fight before I went to school. Hanging over you? Hanging over me. And then I ended up-

Like what, you mean you had to do time or you were on probation or what? Probation, yeah. And so I went to Alma and I said, hey, look, I really want to do this. I really want to be an actor. And she arranged for me to move to Russia and audition for the Moscow Art Theater.

And I ended up, I think that event and Alma seeing that in me, yeah, really changed everything. So when you were, when you were, when you took the class, it was just a year with her initially? It was a year with her initially and what were you learning like what like what like you know so you're this guy you've got this attitude and you know you're you get to this class and then you know what do you see that makes you realize that you know like i i can do

this i mean i think that there was uh i think that there is an energy that an energy of adventure and an energy of abandonment. Oh, that didn't require beating people up. Like you could get up there and pretend and it's all very immediate. Go fucking nuts, man. You could dive into this and it was just as chaotic, just as dangerous as anything I'd ever done, except now people were supporting me. There's a context that that is not some sort of outlaw code and that's it and and and no you know and and and it was it was just as dangerous it was just as exciting what because he was terrifying to go up

there and what to be open or to try to do absolutely absolutely and and to get up in front of an audience and and you know I I I think it's something I mean, to this day, when I think about, you know, stand up, you know, you know, one of my one of my best friends is a guy who I grew up boxing with. He's a stand up comedian named Sean Kerrigan and pro fighter, undefeated pro fighter. And, you know, I really looked at the link between being a boxer and being a comedian. And it's one of the things I just to just to go up there and that risk that you take and the danger and that anything can fucking happen, you can fucking get killed up there. And it's such a, I'm so envious of it. Or you can just die. Yeah. Right. Or it can just be fucking late. Right. But, but it's, but, but, uh, I just think any, any high stakes situation, it was something that I got a huge rush off of. And then I realized, wow, for the first time in my life, adults and peers are looking at me and saying, hey, you're pretty good at this.

You're not like a total fuck up. Yeah, and you're doing something creative and depending on what you're doing, there's meaning and lessons in it. I think that's right. But yeah, but I know the juice you feel when you first get up there where like, it's usually about like, am I gonna look like an asshole? You know, like, am I going to make a fool out of myself? And you do. And then you start to integrate that. Because I think I imagine with somebody like you, I'm not a psychoanalyst, that the fear of looking of embarrassment had to be a big thing.

of embarrassment had to be a big thing i think so yeah i mean like you know i'll be honest with you i was always kind of an outsider in in that theater i mean i was the guy showing up you know in a baseball uniform or you know going to practice right after scaring the scaring the fragile people but see it was really the other way they scared me man and i know that's the coolest part of it did they know that i you know i don't. You know, I don't know. I think that... It's like an after-school movie. Yeah, right? Right? You know, I just... You know, that theater specifically

in that theater department... At Skidmore. At Skidmore was really sort of steeped in the avant-garde theater scene. There was a... The head of the department was this guy, Gautam Dasgupta, who was a huge dramaturg in the 60s and in the avant-garde theater.

So like what, Julian Beck, Living Theater, Theater Cruelty. Richard Foreman. Oh, Foreman, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so basically I had these two things kind of pulling at me. I had Alma, who was this teacher. I mean, once I got the bug, that was it, man. I was in a play every second from then on. What was the first play?

The Scarlet Letter. I played Chillingworth. So you quit the team? Quit the team. I got involved with this theater company. We all lived in a house together. And the theater company would do shows. Well, in Saratoga, we performed at this place called Cafe Lino,

which was this little coffee shop in Saratoga Springs where Bob Dylan started. It was just beautiful. And we did these crazy fucking shows. And then Richard Foreman saw our stuff and he had us do shows at the Ontological in New York. So I would be in school and driving down to New York doing plays there.

And then we would start doing plays in DC as well. So I would be in the school play. I'd be in the- Just you or the troupe? The whole group, the group the whole so you did some foreman stuff yeah we did foreman stuff there's always a lot going on on stage with foreman there's like a lot of people a lot going on yeah yeah you know anything masks noises you know what i mean all crazy i saw one foreman showing us like what the fuck yeah yeah yeah yeah it was like it was like you your brain's trying to get you know figure out what it's about and then then you realize, like, nah, just take it in.

Let it happen. Just be there, man. Just be there. He's there controlling the lights like a puppet master. It's crazy. It's great, man. It's great. But I really dug that in, and I think that I'm enormously grateful to the time in Russia, and I think that's where I kind of became.

How does that happen so like yeah so Alma Becker yeah and in what you know what acting tools or what were you learning what was the approach to the craft with her with initially you know she was she was I think more than anything else when I think about Alma she just there was a vitality to it it was vital it was unbelievably and deeply important and i i mean look the way that it kind of literally sparked for me yeah and and uh i i hate fucking i feel like such a douchebag repeating myself because i've told this story before but i'm talking to you so um the way that it kind of all started is one of the first uh exercises that we had to do in that class before i had any idea that this was something i wanted to do everybody had to bring in something

that mattered to them and share it with the rest of the class, you know, like a game of fucking show and tell. And I get there and the first girl, she has a blues traveler CD and she's talking to the rest of the class about how her boyfriend gave her this blues traveler CD and she's crying her fucking eyes out. And I'm like, this is the craziest girl I've ever seen. Why is this CD so fucking important to her? And for 15 minutes, she's going on about it. And then the next person with a teddy bear, the same shit. And I'm like, I just cannot believe how important this shit is. But it's slowly dawning on me that in this fucking circle, it's going to come to me and I didn't bring anything. I got nothing.

Did you have your baseball hat? Well, what I did have, actually, I was going to baseball practice right afterwards. I was a catcher, so I had my catcher's glove. So I get my glove, and I just launch into this fucking story about how my mother had given me this glove on her deathbed. Did she? No. No, she's alive and well in D.C., man. You know what I mean? And I'm just lying my fucking ass off. But I look around the room, and everyone is crying their fucking eyes out.

I'm crying my eyes out. It's like this. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on, man. This is just the acting, you know? And Alma, she took me aside. Did you cop to it? I copped to it to Alma. And Alma really, for all the shit I had done in my life,

she made me, I just felt fucking awful about it. But I think it was because I'd never exposed myself like that. And what she said is you need to come audition for my play. That was kind of my punishment. And I did. And, you know, it was with all these, you know, older theater majors who took it so seriously and lived it. And they really, you know, they really welcomed me in and they saw something in me. And then Alma really, I think above all else, she's this beautiful actor who came out of San Francisco, was in a bunch of Shepard plays, original Shepard plays out of the Magic Theater in San Francisco. Did you ever play Lee? I did Fool for Love, and I did-

True West? I didn't do True West. No, I did Fool for Love, and I did Cowboy Mouth. Cowboy Mouth? Yeah, yeah. We did scenes from it. I did the whole play of Fool for Love. Oh.

But that's interesting to me that still I'm a little hung up on the bullshit impact in the way that you're seeing these people, and your brain just sort of like, what the fuck? And then you go just make up something. Full fucking bore. But it does connect with you and you do have the feelings. That's it. So I imagine the sense of being a natural actor is that if you could pull that off. Like, I guess my question is in that class that you feel like you got vulnerable, but you were still making something up.

feel like you you got vulnerable but you were still making something up was there a point where you know you were able to access you know really who you you were in the sense with true stories and stuff you know i don't know that i said anything that was truthful in that class i do remember i remember there's one part specifically where i just and you know now even thinking about it's so fucking ridiculous but how my brother and i yeah would go and have a catch and think about mom which is such a it's like such a perverse thought but because it's so thought out right but you know the way that we would and i remember break and but but seeing it and believing in it and and and and having this kind of out-of-body experience and saying i want more of this yeah Yeah, right, right, right.

I want this. This is all right. Right. You know? And it wasn't, you know, I had been in situations where I'm talking to a principal or an administrator where I'm lying through my teeth and if I got over on them, I'd walk out and be like, got them. You know?

Like, got through. Bullet dodge. You know what I mean? But I had also remembered times, I remember being a young kid and taking into the principal's office because I, I like sixth grade, I had a switchblade and I had done something, pulled it on a kid, some shit. And, and I remember the, the principal asking me about that and I had it in my pocket and, you know, breaking down in tears, being like, I would never do that.

And it's right there, you know, like burning a hole in my pocket. And, uh, I don't know, there there was something different about i didn't feel like it was as much as you know duping anybody i felt maybe what it was was my mom who had always said hey man you have this you can do this and for the first time saying you know maybe maybe i kind of can but sort of funny to me because i've talked to a lot of actors and a lot and what some of them will just you know basically say you're it's pretending it's that's what you're doing you're yeah you're believing it fully yeah yeah i think so i think so and then i think then through diving diving all in the way that i did from that point on what was the russia thing how does that happen i never heard that before she

just says go to russia i mean what was in russia what was the moscow art theater uh the moscow art theater so i i moved uh um i lived in a place called park kultury which is gorky park they had a program for what? You were, what, second year of college? No, no. It wasn't a college program. It was just part of the Moscow Art Theater. So you dropped out of school?

I was done, yeah. Dropped out and went to Russia. And she was supportive of that? Big time. Big time. She was my advisor, too. Alma was. So you dropped out as a sophomore?

Junior. Uh-huh. And you go to Russia. That's right. You told your parents, I want to do this thing, and they're like- This is what I want to do. All right. There was pro baseball over there.

I got on a pro baseball team, played a little bit of baseball. What do you mean? You found out in town where the pro baseball was? It was part of the European Professional Baseball Federation. I'm not even sure how I found that. But school there was ridiculously all-encompassing. How long were you there? I was there the first time I was there a little over a year.

And then I went back because ART, Harvard's got a graduate school for acting. They take their students to Russia to get taught for like a semester. So you're in Russia the first time. You're playing pro ball in Russia. Is there a baseball card to you? No, definitely not. A Russian baseball card would be very great. That'd be awesome.

So all encompassing. So what do you mean? What is the training? So this is like, because this is where I believe probably at least in Russia, where some of the big thinkers of modern acting happened.

100%. Yeah, it's Chekhov's Theater, Stanislavski's Theater, Meyerhold, Michael Chekhov, you know, it's the theater. And, you know, you're talking about a place where, you know, and my teachers kind of coming out of this world where, you know, all public gathering in Russia was outlawed. There were state-sanctioned theaters, the Moscow Art Theater being one of them.

But you had shows that were sanctioned by the state, but once the government would start to sort of figure out, hey, this artist that we're celebrating that's doing these pro-Russian plays, there's actually something a little bit behind it there. I don't know if we like this anymore. And all of a sudden, these guys were getting assassinated

and sent to Siberia. Artists, you know, Meyerhold, a great, brilliant director of the Moscow Art Theater, was assassinated in his apartment. For being subversive. Right. And at one time,

completely celebrated by the state. It was just a difference of opinion. And, you know, my teachers, you know, they came from, you know opinion. And my teachers, they came from – one of my teachers, Igor, to avoid the war in Afghanistan, he pretended to be crazy and lived three years in an insane asylum. My three teachers – That's a real commitment to a role. Brother. Igor, Sergei, and Roman, they're three best friends.

They all went to school together. And they would do this play in secret called Shinzano. And basically what they would do is they would do it in subway tunnels and in different locations all around Moscow and people would go and see it during communist times. And if they had got caught, they would have all been arrested. Right. And it was a play that just continued and continued and continued.

With them or with others? Always with them. Yeah. But when you think about the vitality, thing that alma was talking about about how important this is and to take it so seriously and what is on what is at stake i think for me a kind of uh rough and you know i thought of myself as this big bad tough guy from dc to go to moscow in the late 90s and to be taught by these motherfuckers who you know and to be in a city where you talk about dangerous, you talk about alive, you talk about wild.

You were out badass. Oh, my God, man. Oh, my God. I mean, I learned very, very quick. I was not in Kansas anymore. But, you know, at the same time, you know, there was such a reverence for the arts there. Well, like, what was the program?

Because, like, what strikes me is that, you know, when you get the American method, there's all these middlemen, like Uta Hagen and- Meisner. Meisner and the other one. Strasburg. The group theater. All that whole group.

But they were taking, I think maybe Strasburg had met with Stanislawski. It was based on one tour of the show. So their first show was the seagull and uh which one the group theater or who uh Moscow art theater okay so that and uh yeah I got this tattoo here for it it's like so so that's the symbol of the Moscow art theater it's so so basically the first show that they did was called the seagull uh you know Chekhov wrote it obviously and Stanislawski directed it and acted in it. And they took this play on a world tour through England, Paris,

and then through New York, Chicago, LA, and San Francisco. And it was just that for the first time, actors not standing on the foot of the stage proclaiming to the audience, but for the first time really talking to each other. And wow, they're really drinking tea. And that motherfucker just turned his back to the audience. And this realism, naturalism, realism, whatever you want

to call it, it, it drove, it, it, it drove people crazy. And, and, and then it was all about how do we now sit down? How do we get this little bit of time that we have with this guy? How do we translate his books, take the information that he has and make it our own and and and what i think is uh look man i i'm i'm definitely no no no expert you know but i i you know to me i think that is the process of coming up with an acting method we all have to have our own sure and it's all about taking in as much fucking information as we can and then figuring out what works for us and i think that's exactly what those guys did you know but you were there sort of at the source Like the people that you were working with were kind of direct legacies of that. I think so.

I mean, yeah. But what was really interesting is there was no one method from them. Look, you have to do acrobatics. You have to do ballet. Like what do you mean acrobatics? So that's like in – Trapeze? No, it's not that kind of acrobatics yeah it's it's more about getting to be completely training your body to you know walk on your hands to be able to do things with partners to lift

people and to be able to make to to to make performance just out of body movement right to use props in a way clowning all that kind of stuff yes yes and then ballet as well you know we'd have a bolshoi ballerina she would come in and she would... How were you at the ballet? You did pretty good? I was all right. I would be terrible now. I've not kept up with it. No one's asking you to use your ballet chops?

No, no. I'm waiting for that phone call to ring, man. Next role. Yeah, yeah. You're going to switch it up, man. You're going to be the morally corrupt bloody guy for your entire career. Oh, shit, man. Shit.

Hell. So, all right. So, you're doing all that and you're doing plays in moscow yeah doing doing plays in moscow i mean it's interesting in the in the in the first the in in the first sort of section in the first year i mean the way the way that russian theater training works it's it's quite different i mean first of all the teachers the highest honor you can get as a as a as, as an actor in Russia is to be a teacher. So my teacher, you know, Oleg Tabakov, that would be like, you know, Robert De Niro or Philip Seymour Hoffman that he's the teacher, you know, there's, it's absolute reverence. It's such an honor to do it. It's not one of these things where, you know, if it doesn't really work out, you're not working

out of a strip mall in West, West Hollywood. That's right. That's right. That doesn't exist there. A small black box situation with seven other people. Which, hey, God bless them. But, you know, it's very different there and I think it's,

look, it's very brutal, it's very cutthroat, but it's extremely honest. So, you know, there's a huge audition process and then when you get into the school

they cut the class in half every year. How many were English speaking? When I was there? Yeah. When I was there, none. I mean, there was one girl from England. So you were just training in Russian?

Yeah, but I had a translator. I had a translator for, they provide a translator if you get into the school. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was wonderful. And I was at the theater every night seeing plays in Russian, understanding every fucking thing because it was so clear. People were playing their actions so clearly. And I mean, really, man, overall,

there was a, for lack of a better word, there's sort of just a masculinity to being an actor there and an artist there that for me at that time in my life really, really resonated with me. Because it wasn't based in outlaw bullshit. It was a masculinity based in arts. Fuck yeah.

And instead of sort of this coddling kind of, hey, we can do no wrong, come to the theater department where, yes, we're all great and wow, beautiful. It was, you're not good at this, get the fuck out. You're good at this, work harder. And I really responded to it it was it was much more athletic it was much more cut throat uh and it really really it really really worked with me and and uh i i'm i'm will always be grateful to to it and yeah yeah so like so when you come back from russia the first time then you

end up at harvard yeah so they took their students over there to get taught by these Russian masters. They saw me in a show, and they asked me. The Harvard guys, the ART. Yeah, they're like, you want to come to Harvard? I was like, shit, man, I didn't even finish. Yeah, like me? Just to say I went to Harvard. Just tell my old man I go to Harvard?

Like, you know what I mean? I can stop after that, you know what I mean? Yeah, right. And, yeah, and, you know, I had been playing baseball with a bunch of guys who, you know, some South Boston guys. Crazy motherfuckers, man. And so I lived with these guys while I was. If you went to Harvard living with guys from South Boston. Brother, yeah.

I mean. Bunch of Wahlbergs. Oh, dude. Dude. And, you know, so that was a crazy experience. I lived up there. Those guys are rough. Yeah, big time, man.

Big time. Crazy. So you had a new crew. Oh, yeah. Totally new crew. And I was kind of, you know, I still, and I still stupidly kind of had one foot out, one foot in, one foot out. But I knew as far as this acting thing, that was it for me.

Well, that's funny about that one foot, because if you got the right guys going, come on. What are you, come on. You're like, that's it. All. Well, that's funny about that one foot because if you got the right guys going, come on, come on. You're like, that's it. All right. That's it. But what was crazy is all my friends always, you know, whether they were athlete friends or criminal friends or whatever,

through my whole life, they always supported me doing this. And they always, you know, I'll never forget when my baseball team, when my college baseball team saw me in my first show in the Scarlet Letter, they all came and they all said, hey, you suck at baseball compared to this like you can do this man and that felt that really because they can't do it yeah and there was never this sort of thing

of like oh you're uh yeah none of that shit man i never that that never happened never happened so like uh but the only thing i was going to ask you where where's your jewish roots from are they russian yeah wait what kind of jew are you at this point never i mean you know man it was bar mitzvah no no oh so oh really so yeah yeah yeah no i'm bad yeah i'm bad and was it an option or your family just didn't give a shit i think i could if i wanted to do it were your brothers my one of my brothers was. And I think that for me, I just, yeah, it was not even on the radar. Were you fascinated at all with the

genealogy of you and being in Russia or did you have any connection that way? Did you see people that look like you kind of? I guess most of the Jews were pushed out. Brother, yeah. I mean, honestly, I was fascinated by being in Russia. I was fascinated but that place was such a, I mean, it was while I was there, it was the Wild West.

And I think that, you know, the brutality and the danger, things that are always really fascinating. You know, there were shootouts at the door while I was there. That was your religion. Yeah. That was my thing. So that, I was just like, holy shit. But at the same time, again, I think this, you know, you get on the subway there and you got people reading Bogalkov and Tolstoy it's not us weekly and fucking people you know like there's this absolute reverence and respect for for the arts and for literature and

for Russian actors and Russian you know my my best friend there is this guy named Dima who you know I I lived in this really shitty part of town called Park Kultury and every night when I'd walk home him and his buddies they would be like drinking a two liter bottle of vodka and they call me bloodhound gang because they said I look like the guy from bloodhound gang they just make fun of me every every night and one night I saw him in a fight with a couple skinheads and there were three of them and one of him and for some reason I decided to go help the guy out for some reason you're like yeah finally no no no not at all man I'm not you know but like I helped him out and and he and i became

really close he was just this guy who he's basically this street kid but he knew every member of the moscow art theater he knew everything that was at the at the bullshoy you know he he went to the taganka theater he he was it was just that was his thing yeah but it was like that was the thing there it was not like this kind of highbrow you know the theater was not for right rich subscribers who are all falling asleep during shows you know like you're saying fucking vital man and you know there's not a single free seat at any theater people so there's no fire code so people are sitting on the steps and people have to get in there and the seats are enormously cheap and you know just the way of doing you know when you do it when you do a show in russia the way it works is you decide to do the play and then you rehearse it open-ended until the director says it's time to go up but when you were acting you were speaking in english when i

was yeah i mean i i did i did some scene work and you know after a while i started to pick it up and i i got okay but the the scene work that i did and the plays that I did, I would act in English. So when you go to Harvard, now ART, like I know that area, I lived in Boston for years. So like that's Harvard Square at that time before it was sort of gutted of its personality. You still had the tasty where you could get a hamburger on the corner, right? All night. But that was it. But you could always go to Somerville or wherever. so like what were you did you stand out there I mean because I think it seems to me that like in terms of your disposition you're pretty unique in acting in general I mean did you find that that uh you were uh different than the rest of them when you were at Harvard

yeah big time yeah big time I think even more so think, I think the only place, the place where I felt sort of the most kinship or the more, the most, where the other actors were sort of like me was in Russia, you know, where the, I, it was really, which was crazy because a lot of the people in Russia were like, you know, from the, from the mountains, you know, and they had their whole 16 people, their 16, 16 people and their family living in their little dorm room, eating off hot plots of a hot plate, know nothing like me but i felt such a kinship with them that you know i have nothing the same as you it's all on the line and like you know it wasn't the case so what'd you do at art uh which plays a lot oh man i did a lot yeah i did a lot you know we did uh we did um marat sod uh with this great hungarian know, ART is a really cool theater because it's real director-driven.

Right. And, you know, it's always, you know, classic plays with real contemporary takes and great, great directors. So, you know, Robert Woodruff and Janos Saas and Yuri Yurman came over from Russia. And we got to go back to Russia, but this time as an ART student. So all of a sudden you're in clean rooms and locked doors. And so all of a sudden you're in clean rooms and locked doors. And I saw a whole other side of Moscow, the sort of the Western side of it, which I did not like nearly as much. But it was great to kind of go back and be the guy that had been there and sort of take all these kids through. And, you know, like I it was my home.

Yeah, you knew Russia. Yeah. Yeah. And I was really, you know, it's strange. I, I, when we landed in Russia as an ART student, I remember just landing at, uh, Sherm Tevo, the, the airport there. And I just, you know, for no, for no reason at all, I just, I just kind of broke down in tears, you know, and I wasn't, you know, and I just kind of hid and, and, uh, the place just, um, the place really is my heart, man. And, and, man. And, you know, I loved it.

I loved it there. That's amazing. So you studied at Harvard for a couple years? Yeah, and then I started doing all the shows there. And then, you know, you do like a showcase to get agents and all that stuff. And that's sort of like the big promise. At ART. Yeah, well, you go to New York and you do it.

So, you know, I got my agent and then I boned out. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. You didn't finish? I didn't. You know, it was really one of those things that was, I thought when I was, there's no offense to my fellow classmates there, but there was a lot of great people in that class, people I got really, really close with.

I really thought that when I got into that school and that I was going to that school, that I was really going to be like in Moscow. I was going to be with the best of the best. And then when I saw everybody and I saw it really wasn't the case. The competition wasn't as defined. I just thought, wow, we're going to have two years of people who just, you know, all we're going to do is just make the greatest shit ever. And we're all going to dive into this and we're all going to want this so bad. And it's really not what I found. And then what I started to see in the second year, a lot of the kids were sort of saying, hey, this isn't fair.

Some people are getting more roles than others. And it was just this shit that I just couldn't wrap my head around, especially after my experience in Russia, which is a total meritocracy. And so what I did is I snuck out of school one day. You can never miss, but I snuck, I called in sick and I snuck down to DC and auditioned for, this is our youth. They were doing it at the studio theater, the Kenny Lonergan play. And I got the, and so I went back to my school and I said, Hey, listen, I, you know, like, I know we have another semester, but I got this play and I think I can get more out of going to do this play. And they actually were really cool about it. They said they understood and they wished me well.

And the truth is I couldn't have gotten a degree from there anyway because I didn't have a college degree. So it all worked out. Yeah. Yeah. And then I did that and then went straight to doing a play at the Ontological with my old theater company. And then I started to slowly but surely started to work in film and TV, which I really. But how long, did you like, were you living in New York?

Yeah. Yeah. Living in New York. I didn't really have a, you know, my first, my first sort of half year in New York didn't even have a place to stay. I was kind of couch surfing. Were you doing like little shitty plays or not shitty plays, but little kind of like off-Broadway kind of stuff?

Yeah. Well, I was doing stuff. You know, we did Arturo Uy, the Breck uh with with my theater company it was right oh you had a theater company the same theater company the guys from skidmark yeah because they had moved down in new york and they had now they've got this theater called the bushwick star but this was bushwick back in you know back in the 90s uh you know it was a very very different place and my theater company was sort of the first people. It's called Fovea Floods Theater Company.

This genius writer-director named Josh Chambers. He would write all his own plays and choreograph them and then went on to direct plays in Europe. He was a Cal Arts director. And then he kind of, you know, drugs and all kinds of stuff. Lost it. He's still around? He is. And it's tough. You know, he's, you know, kind of you know drugs and all kinds of stuff lost it yeah he's still around he is and and and it's tough you know he's uh you know crazy things have sort of been going on with him and he's literally of i can say 100 to this day of all the brilliant people i've worked with he was the most

brilliant he's the best artist i've ever worked with in my life and he was just one of those guys who just you know he would stay up all night and write a book, you know, he would write music, you know, he's a filing scholar, like one of the best classical guitarists in the country. Just like, it just too, you know, too much going on big time, man, big time to everything. And, and, uh, but man, you know, it was such a beautiful thing we had. Cause there was like 16 of us living in this warehouse space in Bushwick rehearsing all day, then putting our shows up at the ontological in the city and then rehearsing for more plays and just eating together and training together. And it was really a beautiful kind of pure thing. And right about at that time was when I started to get

these sort of like guest spots, you know, my law and order spots. And I felt like it was such a betrayal and such. I can't imagine going from that to sort of like this set of law and order fuck man or even just to audition for that shit and and you know this thing that was so pure and so what i had knew in my heart this is what this is you know i wanted this is what makes me feel alive this is it man and and you know what i wanted more than anything life crazy theory i wanted the wooster group man oh yeah he's my hero yeah he's like that's what i wanted and you know if i ended up doing movies down the road fine but you ever go over there my center i would yeah i would i would watch shows but do you ever try to get in you know i we were so busy

with our stuff that you know we always had something going on um but yeah so how do you kind of justify irrationality betray my own well. I mean, what was the thinking around accepting that as the way your life was going to go? Yeah, I mean, I think the rationale behind it was they were doing a Lanford Wilson play in New York the 5th of July. Yeah. Parker Posey was in it and Eben Moss Bacharach and David Harbour and Robert Sean Leonard. Harbour's out there. Fuck man yeah man and and i my my gig in the show yeah was to be the it was right when i got out of school i was the male understudy so i got to learn all the parts go watch these guys every single night and um and then do these sort of understudy rehearsals where i would play all

all i think four of the male parts. And what I saw was that the people, what I really wanted to do was I really wanted to do serious theater in New York. And I saw Parker Posey and I saw what she was doing and I saw that people were coming to the theater to see her and i i i sort of strategically you know was telling myself at the time the only way i'm going to be able to do this is if people is if i have a career know who i am it's the only way it's the only way you get these these parts and i'm looking around like that's that's who's doing it like every fucking show is a guy from right they have a profile but they also know how to do theater yeah exactly but like you know for me at point, I had done so much of it. I, you know, whether it was stupid or not, in my mind, I wasn't the least bit worried about that.

Right. So I decided to kind of go after that full, full force. Right. To become a recognized actor in the bigger picture so you could draw in the theater. I think so. I mean, I think at first it was just sort of like, let's go after these, you know, guest star spots and let's really pour into those things. Well, yeah, how did you pour into those? I mean, how does that become satisfying for a guy like you?

I mean, I do TV now and it's like, there's a lot of waiting and, you know, you're actually acting for about, you know, two minutes at a time, if not less. Sure. So how does that satisfy you? How do you wrap your brain or make your brain think that that's satisfying? Well, I think it was deeply naive

and just kind of pathetic, to be honest with you, to sort of think that you have a kind of understanding of something that you have literally no experience in. Which is what? Which is acting in front of a camera. Oh, right, okay. And I think that, for me, once I got out there and I started doing it,

and I ended up doing this little independent film called Day Zero with Lizzie Moss was in it and Ginny Goodwin and Elijah Wood and Chris Klein. And I remember I had gone to the audition for this thing. They were only seeing people for, like, Hot Dog Vendor No. 1, you know. And I kind of went into the audition for this thing, they were only seeing people for like hot dog vendor number one or, you know, and I kind of went into the audition. I love this script and I love this character so much. And I went to Alma and she and I had worked on it together and I learned the whole script. And when I came in, they said, what role are you auditioning for? And I said, Dixon was the lead. And they said, okay, well, we're not auditioning people for that. And I said,

well, look, I've got some stuff prepared. Can I just show you what show you what i'm thinking they said all right what scene do you want to do and i said i know the whole script so sort of as a you know just to test me they're like all right let's start at the beginning and we ended up doing it they ended up casting me and uh i i i fell in love with this process you know the guy like lived on top of a roof so i moved into the you know i did all the sort of stupid young young bullshit. And, you know, I- How long did you live on top of a roof? For the whole shoot, you know? Yeah.

And, you know, it was just one of those things where there was a strategy to it. And there was a- A different way of thinking about acting. A different way of thinking, man, that I absolutely fell in love with. And I said, wow, there's so much to learn here. This is so, there's so much potential here. It's so electric. And I think for me, like exactly what you say that, you know, our whole thing now as actors is to hone our lives and to position ourselves emotionally, physically in every way, just for these few seconds between action and cut. That's the game like that's the and that that is totally invigorating for me and exciting to me. Okay. So, but what about, okay, you've done your three minutes.

So now, okay, we're going to switch out a lens. We're going to move the cameras. What do you do in that time? Well, so you have a choice, right? You can either, and I think that that's the sort of thing when we get back to, you know, Stanislavski and all this shit. To stay in it or not. To stay in it or not. To stay in it or not. And for me, it's about proximity to whatever that heat is and whether that is just you need to be fully relaxed

and fully engaged with the person you're in the scene with or do you need to be close to this fire inside you to be where you think this person needs to be. Well, with something like The Punisher, which I hadn't watched and I'm like, well, I better watch it. So I watched episode one and then last night I'm on six and, I better watch it. So I watched episode one, and then last night I'm on six, and I got real into it.

I think that guy, the Punisher as a character, I dig. But something like that, so you're shooting that thing, that seems to be heavily, require a lot out of you. Yeah, man. So when you're not shooting during that, are you staying in it? Yeah, and I think the more that you do it, the more you kind of know your body, you know, you know, you know what it is, but yeah, definitely in the beginning. And definitely when I,

when I took the role on big time, especially I think it was a real privilege to be able to do it at first. I, I, when I started playing it, uh, it was on daredevil, right? So like, you know, when you're not number one guy on the call sheet, you can sort of just be the guy in the corner pacing and, In the Daredevil? blunt or or dicaprio or brad pitt got people who are you know unbelievably welcoming and part of the job is is making people feel comfortable i think so like so that that was that would that's the challenge for me as far as doing the the part you know how do you stay how do you control your proximity to the character yeah while also taking care of the people taking care of the crew to being there being a decent guy being a decent guy and being accessible

because because uh i've i've been the guy who just shows up for the day and and i want everybody who's there to feel hey man you can you can explore here you can go big here you can go for it you can feel comfortable have ideas like and you look it's marvel man you know you got a million fucking cooks and so i it's really important for me for for the artists and for the crew to feel supported and then uh and that's that's kind of the challenge that's kind of the challenge there with that so you're doing these bit parts you know new york and you're doing the guest shots that everyone does in new york and uh what was the first movie outside of the independent one the first movie that i did i think the first the first sort of bigger movie that i

did was uh world trade center oh yeah which was which was crazy a crazy i like that movie though yeah it was heavy right you know it was very heavy but you know it was five years after you know when we did it it was uh you know but i think that that was sort of my first experience especially with a with with a big budget movie of of what's possible in terms of research. Right, right. Oliver Stone is, you know, extremely into that. And, you know, I played this guy, small part, but, you know, a guy named Chris Amoroso, who left the youngest widow of all the first responders. His wife, Jamie, his daughter, Sophia, was one. He's a guy who was at the bus terminal, was at Port Authority.

They called him BT Dogs. And that morning got stationed at World Trade Center. um he's a guy who was at the bus terminal was at port authority as a they call them bt dogs and uh that morning got stationed at world trade center and was super pissed off about because nothing ever happens at world trade center and he went up that day he went up uh to where the planes hit he grabbed a woman carried her down something fell on him and he sliced off half of his ear he carried her to safety all the way down when he he got down exhausted, covered in blood, there's this picture of Chris. He saw his best friends all coming in from, because they had just come from the bus terminal. He set her down, got her to safety and went back up and never made it out. You know, when I got cast in that, you know, I wrote his widow, Jamie, I wrote her this letter just sort of asking permission to be a part of it and, you know, inviting her to be as much of a process as memorializing, you know, any bit of truth that she could add about Chris would be great. And, you know, the studio kind of shut that. They're like, look, kid, you're in like two scenes in this movie. Like, you know, it was very, very, very delicate, the relationship with the widows.

And it was all, you know, enormously fresh. And I think that there was a whole component of that movie where, which I found super truthful, where in the script, every time these guys were going into the building, the one thing that was uniform among all of them, all cell phone services was stopped. You couldn't call anybody. So all they would say is, hey man, if I don't make it out of here, you tell Jamie that I let you, Hey, you tell Chris, you tell, and, and all of that as a whole, because it was so delicate and I don't know whether how it was handled, but all of that got pulled out. Basically all of the widows said, Hey, we don't want our names mentioned in this, all of it. And, um and um it changed it drastically and i was really sort of sad that i couldn't you know reach right but you know oliver one of the things that you know he's sort of famous for and he's so brilliant at is you know he he had us there a month and a half before and he said look

he brought us to the bus terminal i met all chris's friends officer fairbank sergeant finney and he said you can spend as much time as these guys as you want. And I started going out with these guys every single fucking day. And we became like this. And they told me all this shit about Chris. And as a surprise at the end, they connected me with her. And, uh, you know, we, it was, uh, it was such a, such a cool honor. And, you know, I, I, I think, you know, that's really what was the beginning for me and what's carried me over in terms of what I really, really love, people who invite you into their lives. And this desire that I think is really in everybody to have their stories told and to be told authentically with the bruises and the ugliness included. It's such an honor and it's something, it's such a treasure if you get somebody to do

that. Yeah, yeah. So was she, how did she feel about your performance? Do you know? Yeah, yeah. She was great, man. You know, she reached out. We always sort of communicated on Christmas for some reason.

But she, you know, said really kind things. Oh, that's nice. You know, I didn't really do enough in the movie to make a crazy impact. But, you know, I always, you know, in the little bit of publicity I did for the movie, I always talked about her and about Sophia. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. And with Wolfo, like I imagine working with these guys,

I don't know who the, I can't remember who you were directly working with on that movie, but in Wolf of Wall Street, I mean, you were one of the guys, the outsider, the drug dealer. But I mean, I imagine when you work with, and you worked with Pit on Fury, was that it?

That you do learn from them, watching how they handle themselves. I just did a scene with Pit on Fury, was that it? That, you know, you do learn from them, watching how they handle themselves. And, you know, like I just did a scene with Mark Wahlberg, and like for some reason I'm always, I always speak at this level. Like I'm always, you know, speaking on stage level. Sure. And I'm doing a scene with him,

and he's like, yeah, okay, man. He's like, and then there's that moment where you realize, like, I don't have to shout. You know, but I also realize, like, but I shout all the time. It's who I am. Do I have to start worrying about, like, maybe I should try talking like I never talk, which is a normal level. But there's just little things that you pick up in talking to and just watching those guys work. Because those guys, like, Pitt's a really pretty amazing actor.

Brilliant, man. to and just watching those guys work because those guys like pitt's a really pretty amazing actor brilliant man you know i mean they i think i mean i i kind of feel like they all are i mean i feel like you're there you know for a reason you know i just i just did this movie with uh with matt damon and he's the best and bail yeah man oh my god uh that and and a totally different kind of part for me and i played play leigh iacocca in this movie, a mangle movie. So they fatten you up and they balded you? Well, it's Lee Iacocca. It's, you know, it's in the 60s. Oh, young Lee Iacocca. Yeah, in 66.

But, you know, I look at, you know, and I've always been such an enormous fan of Matt's. Yeah. But, God, and like a lot of my stuff, it was with him and Tracy Letts. By the way, on the show, he was fucking the best. He's the best.

I love him. Coolest motherfucker on earth yeah uh but you know uh you know matt it is so damn good like he's so damn good and like such a good person and an open person an honest person and you know i think you said it man it's it's learning from them across the board. Well, how does a guy like you get smaller? You know, man, I think that, look, I think part of it is you got to be confident enough to, and I think this is probably the boxer in me, and this is probably, this is something where that stuff really- You still box? I do.

Yeah, I'll always box. And I think for me how do we miss that part of the story how long you've been boxing oh man uh 25 oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i yeah yeah that guy sean that i was telling about we came up together yeah and and uh but but you know i think that you have to you you at the end of the day when you get in there you have to remember hey man everybody puts on their pants one leg at a time. Like that, that's amazing. And, and, and, you know, it's not, you know, I think if you go in, you know, but, uh, but watching their choices, you know, watching their actions, watching their choices, watching how they handled themselves, both onset and off,

you know, and, and look every, each one of them is different. And, and, and sometimes, but, but I, I, all these people that you mentioned and, and, you know, DiCaprio definitely in there as well. You know, these are all people that are just staggering human beings. Well, now, the character in Wolf, that was a real guy. Did you go meet that guy? Well, the guy who I played had passed. But the guy who Leo played, yeah, he was, you know, Scorsese's interesting. He doesn't like the real people to be around.

You know, he likes to get the story. And then he, you know, that was just, that was the mountaintop, that movie. You know, I- I love that movie. Man, I just, every day, you just did not know what was going to happen. It was all improvisation. It was? Oh, man, it was the entire thing.

You never knew which way it was going to go. You know, there's that whole section in that movie. I don't know how well you know the movie, but that whole thing is selling me this pen. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. And, you know, that came about that day that we shot that scene in the diner. Leo happened to be the security guard.

The guy who was doing Leo's security for that day was a New York City detective. And when they were walking from the trailer to set to that diner scene, he said, you know, I had a job interview with the real Jordan Belfort back in the 90s. And Leo said, oh, yeah, he's making small talk. He said, you know what he did in the interview? He pulled out a pen and said, sell me this pen. And so Leo just threw that out in the scene and we just improvised it. You know what I mean? But it was that in the moment, that alive, you know, whatever.

It feels that way. No conversation. Hey, let's try that. And, you know, I've never felt more watched by a director. I've never felt, you know, these, you know, I don't more watched by a director i've never felt you know these look you know i don't i don't know how you feel about it but i i the thing i hate more than anything is saying hey so i i kind of have this idea and i want to see if i could like you know marty makes everybody feel a hundred feet tall everybody extras everybody throw things out there

try things try things but he sees it it's not just so sometimes when you're pitching on camera, it's like, oh, did he see it? But he saw every little fucking thing for what it was and then could say, great, or don't do that. You know, one or the other. And there was a level of play on that movie unlike any place I'd ever been before. Oh, yeah? Yeah. It was wonderful.

That's great. Yeah, it was cool. And, yeah, the thing I liked about that movie was just the escalating levels of testosterone. You know, like they show those traitors in that room, and by the end of the movie, they were doing backflips, and they were like, ah! It was really a nice element so like are you happy that you got out from under The Walking Dead yeah you know I think

you did like 20 of them yeah I did like the first two years I think at that time in my life you know I think Frank Darabont I mean that was a strange thing because you know Frank was such a instrumental part of that show. And, you know, he got fired off of it, you know, really sort of in an abrupt and acute way and that we never really understood.

And I think for me, I was so unbelievably grateful to be doing that show. Finally, we're on a show. The show was super successful and it was kind of tailor mademade it was right in my wheelhouse and showing something you know i've been doing like sitcoms and shit before that stuff that i just don't think i was very good at and i love that character was such a beautiful character that had a real arc it had real buoys along the journey that you know you could really show something with and i thought sort of just my luck i finally get on this hit show and then I get fucking killed off of it. But definitely looking in retrospect,

you know, doing the show was one of the best things that happened in my career and getting killed off of the show was equally as good. Well, yeah, because those kinds of things become a soap opera eventually. That's it. There's no way to sustain it. Yeah, and you could be stuck there for your entire career.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, for me, the people you meet along the way is always the thing to take away.

It's always the most important part of this thing. Yeah. And I think that, you know, those people, those original actors from The Walking Dead,

they're still some of my best friends in the world. Oh, that's great. And we're all, you know, enormously close and totally a part of each other's lives.

Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it's great. You're a gregarious guy that has a real sort of passion and interest with other people. That's nice. I mean, look, Cherry Jones came and spoke at ART. I flew back up for the graduation, even though I didn't graduate. And I remember she said, in this business, she said, let me give you three pieces of advice. She said, always live within your means. Uh, you know, don't, don't change your life financially

just because things are going well or things are going bad. Try to keep it even never base your, uh, personal happiness on your career success. And always, always remember above all else, it's about the humans you meet along the way, be a human being. And, uh, you know, I've, I've been with artists that I really, really respect. I've worked with actors that I really, really respect who totally disagree with that, who say, fuck this, man, this is not about making friends. I don't give a fuck if you like me. This is about what happens between action and cut that lasts forever. You know, man, I just not who I am, man. It's not what I believe in.

I really think that being decent and being kind and the relationships are really important and the best part of this thing, what you take away. And it all becomes part of who you are as an artist. And it informs you in so many different ways. And to let that armor down is, I think think that's I mean, that's my path. Well, yeah, I mean, and you're fortunate to have some sort of, you know, grounded confidence about things, you know, because of the way you live your life. Like because like for me, like if I'm on a set, you know, which is relatively new to me, you know, to be working with other actors in a real – but with this thing I'm doing now with Glow, a lot of times I just kind of keep to myself because I know it's not about me. Sure. And also, you give me five minutes, I might be walking around going, how was that?

Was that okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd rather be quiet guy than that guy. 100%. 100%. 100%. And knowing, I think, that arrogance or, you know, the second that you're arrogant or the second that you think you've got this fucking thing licked is the absolute enemy and absolute destruction. So it's like you just go to this place of like, oh, fuck that. I mean, everything I do, you know, I think artistically I do tend to live in this place of like oh fuck I fucked that up really I do I do man and and but like what with takes or with characters or like

you or you just like there's nothing that you've uh accomplished even after we talk about you know how amazing it is and how you know you've learned all these things about yourself and this good side of yourself you know still you walk away from the wolf of wall street and say like I fucked that you know I think that I think that there are certain processes and certain characters and certain things that I've done where, where, where I can look at the process and look at everything that happened. I can look at the relationships that I made where I say, wow, that was, we had some magic. But you have to convince yourself. It's a pretty high bar, man. I think, you know, like one of the things, one thing a teacher told me that really resonated with me was, you know, one of the problems with things like a graduate school or problem with, you know, maybe going to the same comedy club every night or surrounding yourself with the same artists or being on a show for a long time.

Yeah. Is what you do is artistically you, whether you want to or not, you start comparing yourself to everybody in your immediate circle. And you say, well, you know, I might not be the best, but I'm definitely better than that guy. And although that guy had a great Tuesday night, you know, he's really kind of at the bottom of the world. I'm more steady. Yeah, you know what I mean?

It's just like this stupid fucking narrative that means nothing. And this one teacher I had, you know, and maybe this is grandiose, but it's what he fucking said. You know, he said, you know, what you need to do as an artist is you need to have examples of perfection. And whether it's like one play that Michael Jordan made or a riff that Jerry Garcia played. Yeah. He said, what you need to do as an artist is you need to have examples of perfection. And whether it's one play that Michael Jordan made or a riff that Jerry Garcia played. Whatever it is, it needs to be these little moments of perfection.

You need to always compare your shit to that. Always. To other types of artists in particular? Whatever. Artists, athletes, you need to know. You need to have. So how do you win that game? You don't. You don't.

And I think when you get back to the Seagull. So that guy cursed you. Maybe. But I think like, look, man, like when I go back to, you know, Alma and the Seagull and what I think that play is about. Yeah. You know, to me, what that play is about is it's about all these different artists and their relationship with their dream, the health of the relationship that they have with their

dream, with their art. Right. Okay. And so you have all these different people. And if you know the play, you know, know the reason why checkoff called it a comedy and it's fucking ends with suicide and it's so fucking tragic yeah it's because you got all these people in love with the wrong people and this one loves this one and they're all so fucking miserable and they should just fucking figure it out but the metaphor for the dream is the seagull

and trep loves in love with nina calls her his seagull that's his dream to be with her and when she won't love him because she's in love with a more successful older writer what he does is he goes and he kills a fucking he shoots a seagull and gives it to her right yeah and for me what that play is always about is that the way to have a healthy relationship with your dream yeah is like a seagull there's no such thing as a seagull that you can have as a pet. It needs to be wild. It needs to be out in front of you. You need to be chasing it. It needs to be going different directions and you can't, the only way you can touch it or attain it is you got to kill it. And by killing it, it's over, man. Like you have to chase it. You have to let it be something out in front of you.

You think you can't chase it without feeling like you're never good enough? Let it be something out in front of you. But you think you can't chase it without feeling like you're never good enough? Well, look, I think that just because I know that what I'm after is a healthy relationship with it does not mean by any means that I'm there. And it's a journey. It's something that I'm striving towards. But I do think that sort of being like the feeling of, hey, I got this licked, you know, it takes the hunger away. And I think that that is, I think for me, that is the big thing that I really want to work on

going forward is I want to figure out how to have a healthier relationship with the things that I'm trying to do that doesn't always go to a place of- You're a piece of shit. You're a piece of shit. You don't deserve to be here you know because where that does drive me hey fight harder go go go go go it potentially can get in the way

right well i mean because i mean i've had that and like i still have that like with my primary craft which is stand up you know i'll you know even if like you know i don't uh necessarily get the recognition that some of my peers get. And my last special I thought was great. And, you know, and I know that I did all the work I could have. That was the best thing I did. But like, you know, here a year later or whatever it is when I'm building new stuff that I'm still sort of like, God damn it. Why can't I just work in a different way to where I don't have to put it all on the line every fucking time to figure out a direction for a joke.

But is it self-judging the shit that you're – is the process of self-judging and being hard on yourself on this new one that you're doing, is that the same process that you were – Well, it's always been my process. My process is like you, like I get something out of being in the moment. So like I'm not writing jokes down. Like I'm going on stage with ideas and then in that moment. So I'm not writing jokes down. I'm going on stage with ideas and then in that moment

the way I see it is that I have to be funny because I'm cornered. I've cornered myself. I don't know where it's going to come from. I don't know how it's going to happen. I don't know what I'm going to say. It's a defensive thing. I imagine with boxing, it's like you don't know what it's going to take to get into that

guy's head, but you've been up there enough to know what's going to happen. Sure. Right? Sure. And if it doesn't happen, all right, so that's the game. Sure. But there are times where I say to myself, well, why can't I work differently so I have a little more protection up there? And clearly I don't want it.

But that's not driving me to a spiral place really. It's just part of my life and I get it and I know myself enough to accept my process, whatever the faults of it are. But when you're doing stuff like when you're in the darkness, like self-hatred as a compulsion to make yourself better, I don't think that's something we do consciously. But you're saying that, you know, what I've had to investigate in my life is that if I'm doing things that make me feel bad, and I'm not talking about art,

you know, what is it about carrying that shame that is fucking comfortable to me, and why do I have that? Right, right, right, right, right. Do you know? It's tough because I think that I've always been really, really blessed with really, really solid support around me. Yeah.

Really, really good group of friends who I've had my whole life. Unbelievable wife. Great kids. Yeah. Great family. Great. I've just, that's never, you know, so I think it's this idea that I can take anything. I can take anything because I got this support structure.

But is that true? But it seems to me that at some points you must think like you don't deserve any of that. Sure. So what is that? Sure. Well, I mean, deserve. I mean, I don't know. Deserve is a funny, you know, deserves a funny thing.

I just think that it's we have these processes, you know, we have this process for art. And up until this point. But this was but this preexisted art in your life. No, I mean, like, I have to assume that when you're getting busted and you're having to bullshit your way out of situations that you didn't, you know, walk away, whatever the success was and getting away with it. You can feel good about yourself. Did you?

No. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know. Yeah. Fuck. Like, I don't know what that is because that's part of it. That's such, that's like almost a bigger component than the action is staying in that.

Sure. Sure. And I, like, I can't, you know, I can look at my parents, I can look at whatever, but I can't always quite understand what that is. Like, there's something about that feeling that is grounding that's home that's home that's home i know that yeah yeah you know but but but i but i also think that those few times like you look at that special that you just did and that you feel good about yeah you know i don't know would you want to be the guy who felt like that all the time

like i i you know like wow my shit i'm great I don't know. I just feel like that's impossible, right? It's not an option. Exactly, exactly. So I think, like, I just think, like, a good healthy dose of questioning yourself. Sure, and even the guys you think think that don't. They don't fucking think that, man. And I think, like, being honest with that. But I think the biggest fear, like, when you were talking about that feeling on set after a certain amount of time on a series or

whatever and you start comparing yourself to other people i think the bigger fear is when you're sitting there going like now my life is just as boring as any other fuckers isn't it i yeah i don't know man i i i mean doesn't work become work after a certain point i mean obviously we're not you know we we're working for ourselves and there's a lot of creativity to it. But I imagine there is a sort of prison to that, too. I think there can be. And I think that it's up to you. I think it's up to you to raise your stakes if they're not being raised.

I think that's true. You have to raise your stakes. And as a creative person, there's always stakes to be raised. There's always something you can do. Even if other people don't see it, you know that like, I did have something a little different there. That's it. That's it.

So how did you meet your wife? How did you, where'd the family all happen? I mean, three kids, a lot of kids. How old are they? My daughter's three and I have a son that's five and a son that's seven. So that's pretty new. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How long have you been married?

We've been married for seven years now. Oh, so that's pretty new. Yeah, yeah. Where'd How long you been married? We've been married for seven years now. Oh, so that's pretty new. Yeah. Yeah. Where'd you meet her? I met her in DC. I met her in DC the night I got back from Russia. She's a, she was an ICU trauma nurse, worked at Georgetown, met her. That's nice to have in the house, a trauma nurse where you know exactly what's going on, what you got to do. Yeah. Something bad happens yeah yeah and and um yeah she she's you know man she's she's everything to me man she's everything to me she she uh you know i it it's been a it's been a long road with her and she's been there with me every step of the way. And what I was telling you before about getting in trouble kind of that last time

when I decided- 2009? 2009, July 3rd. You're a grown ass man. Grown ass man, dude. And guys, I was in Venice Beach and I had my dogs and a guy, there's these guys having a house party, these sort of like wannabe i don't know

what the fuck they were but there's a whole group of them one of them called my dog over i call my they grabbed my dog i tried to get my dog back he tried to kind of take him and i grabbed my dog they started following me and there's you know about 10 of them one pushed me in the back and uh i turned and i hit the guy and got knocked out standing up and busted his head on the the pavement it was real bad and then you know i just put my back against the tree and it was a pretty, pretty bad fight. And I got taken in and, and, uh, you know, we really didn't know whether this guy was going to wake up or not. And, uh, I, I, uh, I was, you know, down there, uh, at the Pacific division, handcuffed to a bench and, uh, you know, really did not know what was going to go down.

And look, man, this was not like, you know, I wasn't 20. Yeah, right. I wasn't, you know, I was a guy, you know, been a series regular on a few shows, done a bunch of movies, you know. Did the press get hold of it? Out of life. No, I wasn't quite there. Oh, yeah, right. You know what I mean?

It wasn't like that. It was before Walking Dead. Okay. And I remember sitting there and literally as clear as day, you know, having this conversation that, you know, if I go this way into this room and this guy doesn't wake up, you know, it's going to be this side of me. The darkness has got to come to the front and that's who you're like. That's who you're going to be from now on. Like, that's what life is going to be like in here. But I said, but if you can just get me out, just wake him up, man. Get me out of this one.

Like I am fucking done and I'm ready to, I am ready to dedicate my life to the things that I know I need to be dedicating them to. And the first, first and foremost was, was her. Yeah. And she was, she had to come down to the station. The whole thing, man. The whole thing. And the guy woke up? He did.

And look, that really changed everything. That one event kind of changed everything for me. Did you make an amends? Big time. And I really look at what happened with that guy that night and looking at him you know i i think there was part of part of what i was doing that night was hitting you know was trying to smash something that had been inside of me for so long and and this uh this this this loudness this brazenness this this carelessness and uh impulse control too right big time because like you know i mean i guess you got to relive that a little bit

in that first episode or second episode of punisher, you know, with those guys coming up on you. Like, you know that. Well, what's crazy is that, you know, I think in that, in that sense, like in that character and a lot of the stuff I play, it's like, you know, we're tapping into a lot of this stuff. And it's funny because, you know, 2009 isn't that long ago. But, you know, man, I've like found I'm a extremely peaceful man now. You know, I love fatherhood. I've never been humbled by anything like I've been humbled by this. Don't want to fuck that up.

Don't want to fuck this up, man. And I'm absolutely in love with my wife. And, you know, like I've really I found this thing now where I can really, like, I still have the fire, but I can really channel it now. Clearly. But I think it's interesting how you phrase that, because I don't think I've heard it phrased like that before, that despite whatever your intentions were, because of the choices you've made, the darkness will have to come to the front just to survive.

That's it. And it was clear as day. And it wasn't one of these things like, okay, buddy, you better steal yourself. It was in that room being handcuffed to that. I know enough about what's on the other side of that wall that if this goes down this way, it's all over. That life, one way or the other, life as I knew it before was over and it was time to, it's not like, hey man, I got to muster up the change. It's over. It's over one way or the other. We're going one way or the other here. And what a blessing to be presented with that in, in, in such a clear and concise way. We're sticking to it.

You know, it's not about like, Hey, let's, you know, let's, let's, let's fight through this thing. It's like, Hey, look, man, it's, it's one way or the other. And it was as clear as anything that I've ever looked at. And yeah, it's... It really is black or white because you know that like, you know, you went too far and now you got to survive

in the chaos of just monsters. Yeah. Well, I'm glad that didn't happen. Me too, man. And now you can just do it on screen. Yeah, yeah, man. Good talking't happen. Me too, man. And now you can just do it on screen. Yeah. Yeah, man. Good talking to you. You too, brother.

All right. That was Jon Bernthal. Again, The Punisher's third season is on now. It's available on Netflix, on Netflix, at Netflix, in Netflix. You can stream all of the episodes, all of the seasons right now. In Netflix, you can stream all of the episodes, all of the seasons right now. I got my wah-wah pedal hooked up with the Echoplex into the old amp. Kind of analog.

Echoplex is a reissue of the old sound done without the big tape loops. Dig it. Boomer lives. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction.

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