WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Gallagher

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

Marc revisits his 2011 interview with comedian Gallagher, recorded in Portland, Oregon on January 27, 2011. Their conversation about comedy, language and cultural tolerance led to Gallagher walking out on the interview, the first and only time that happened on WTF. Leo Gallagher died on November 11, 2022. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi folks, many of you know that Gallagher, the comedian, has passed away and we generally do this when someone I have interviewed passes away. We did this interview, Gallagher and I, on January 27th, 2011. We posted it four days later. And when a former guest has died and their episode is behind the paywall, which this is, there's a lot of episodes that aren't, but this one still is. We want to make sure people can hear it and don't have to pay for it. And this one's a unique interview because it's really the first time where a guest has died and frankly might not want this episode remembered. But it's an honest representation of who he was 11 years ago and also who I was.

Most of the intro is self-explanatory. And since this interview, I've set out, and I had set out then as well, to sort of give people the respect they deserve and contextualize them into the history of comedy. It usually revolves around the comedy store there's conversations in this episode about tom dreeson and alan bersky both people who i had not interviewed yet and did not know the full story my education was still unfolding and i got this opportunity to talk to Gallagher in a hotel room in Portland and I took it and I tried. Now, the thing went sideways pretty quickly because he's a singular type of person. And right out of the gate, it became not contentious, but I was just trying to have a conversation and it got intense. It got argumentative. But in the middle of all this, we had a conversation about what you can and can't say when you do comedy, which is a hot topic now, has been a hot topic before.

This is 12 years ago before woke and unwoke language. Cancel and no cancel. this is way before all that but the conversation is the same conversation and we got into it because he had gotten a reputation for being you know a bit of a a bigot and a bully and doing old you horrible racist and gay bashing jokes and i brought it up but i really you know i listened to this thing and i and i laugh not in a bad way you know looking back on it i i have i have empathy for the guy there was really nobody like him and i i'm sort of not sorry it went the way it did but had i done it later in my career as a conversationalist, it might have gone differently. I don't know. I don't know.

But he was a singular person, a one-of-a-kind act, an opinionated guy. And I kind of love this interview, even though I don't know that it makes me look great. It doesn't definitely doesn't make him look great, but but I love it. And, you know, he was an important entertainer to a lot of people. And, you know, I spent a lot of my life, you know, mocking him and condescending to his way of doing comedy. you know, mocking him and condescending to, you know, his way of doing comedy. But after all is said and done, you know, he was an interesting, aggravated, stubborn old guy. And now he's gone and we have this conversation. So this is it. Enjoy me and Gallagher.

Gallagher wanted to come on the show. I'm not sure he wanted to come on the show, but his manager contacted my manager. He lives here. Gallagher was in town doing an event, and his manager wanted him to do a guest spot on my show, which I decided against. I didn't see how that would be good for anybody. I don't know him. I don't have any experience with him. I don't know what he's doing now. And obviously, I've only heard negative things about him recently. I know what he is. I know what he does. I didn't have any particular problem with him. I do not think I would have asked him to be on the podcast otherwise if he hadn't approached me through his representation or if they hadn't approached me without him knowing it, whatever the case may be. I'd been asked to have him on after some articles came out not long ago in The Stranger and the

Onion AV Club talking about Gallagher, his recent performances, his racially insensitive jokes, his homophobic jokes. He seemed to have been getting a, you know, in the alternative culture. I don't know how far it's really spread. I imagine it's picked up some steam that he was some sort of right-wing whack job with, you know, a racist agenda or a homophobic agenda. And, you know, sadly, after I re-listened to what happened between us, you know, that's what I went on. I did want to, you know, put him into the context of comedy, into the history of comedy to appreciate what he did, because despite whatever you may think of him now, I know a lot of you people out there listening were probably loved him when you were 11 or 12. He had a tremendous

career in show business for doing what he did. He is a household name, as is his brother for stealing his brother's act or at least not stop doing the act after his brother said not to. I don't really know. I was going to get into that stuff. I wanted to get into a lot of stuff since I had the opportunity, but I'm not sure I handled it well. I started to have the conversation when I saw the moment to seize the conversation and talk about some of the recent controversies. It kind of went off the rails. And he left my hotel room. So he stormed out of my hotel room.

He was perfectly, you know, I don't know if I would say pleasant, but I really was not trying to offend the guy. But in listening back to it, in order to get a word in edgewise, I don't know if I would say pleasant, but it was, I really was not trying to offend the guy, but in listening back to it, in order to get a word in edgewise, I was fairly argumentative. I had no real agenda to tear him down or anything. I was just trying to ask questions. And because of his elevated tone, my tone elevated. And in retrospect, after listening to it, I sort of felt not necessarily bad, but it made me think about a lot of things about comedy. It made me think about how the arc of anyone's career may still be disappointing, no matter how much success you have. The desperation at a certain point in one's career

can be very daunting to the point where you just don't understand why you're in the position you're in. But, again, I'm being empathetic because in listening to the thing, I think I was a little bit aggressive. I will take responsibility for that, though I thought some of the stuff we talked about was interesting. Because you guys know me. I try to enter these conversations in a genuine way. I just wanted to have a real conversation with him. I wanted to afford him the respect that he deserved as a guy who had a career in show business. Look, comedians are different.

There are clowns. There are comics. It's fucking show business. And as I said before, many of you probably loved this guy when you were a kid. But the audiences that he still has, I'm sure he had them when they were kids. But maybe they didn't grow up. Maybe he's just, he's a clown. And he's a comedian.

And, you know, he's fucking Gallagher. And he's a guy that's on the other side of his career. And in listening to the interview I did or tried to do or got halfway through, I certainly didn't mean to stoke the fires of somebody who's in this position of, you know, trying to regroup without, you know, maybe not having as much hindsight or self-awareness as he might want and being sort of crucified for, you know, for what he thinks

is a stupid thing. But it did bring up a lot of talk about, you know, when is a joke insensitive? I mean, it's just, there's this idea around doing certain jokes that are clearly bullying, that are clearly minimizing, you know, whether the jokes about gays or blacks or whatever, there's a way to do that stuff. And there are people that have license to do it. Does everybody have the license to do it? Of course. Is there a price to pay for it? Sometimes. Can you please everybody? No. Can you entertain everybody? No. I mean, ultimately, it's going to be what's in your heart. You know, how do you treat other people? What do you feel about other people? Do some of those jokes reveal

hypocrisy? Absolutely. But there's this argument that is sort of made in this conversation that I had with Gallagher, that what you do as a comic is release aggression. You ease aggression, that you disarm things. And I think that's true. But I think that there's a deeper level to it, too, that you also reveal hypocrisy, that you satirize extremes in order to make a point about society, about culture, about how we see the world. I agree with all that. But at some point, if you're doing jokes that hurt people, you know, okay, fine. You could say, well, they're babies. They can't take a joke. Well, maybe they've been taking that joke their entire fucking life. And all they hear it as is pain and attack,

or all they hear it as is, is, you know, you're saying that I'm less than because I am who I am. And that's a reality too. Are those jokes bad? No. Can they be done well? Yes. But it's the idea of disarming anger through humor. I mean, it's almost a difference between saying like, I've got a gangrenous sore on my leg, but I'm just going to put lotion on it as opposed to treat the infection. I'm just going to put lotion on it because it feels better. I'm just going to remain in denial it because it feels better. I'm just going to remain in denial that I might lose my fucking leg. It's the same thing at a certain point. Maybe we don't need any more fucking lotion. I mean, at some point, something's got to go deeper,

and obviously it's not everybody's responsibility. And I wasn't trying to attack this guy as much as I was trying to figure out where the fuck he was coming from. Look, I was excited about it. You know, he came to my hotel. And when he got here, I met him in the lobby. And I realized that he really didn't know what he was getting into. I don't think he knew what a podcast was. He asked me, is this live or what?

And I'm like, no, it's a podcast. He's like, a what? And I'm like, okay, this is where we're at. And then I tried to be a good host. I said, do you want some coffee? There was no coffee. You know, I mean, we went over to where the coffee was that they put out in the morning. It's not there. I said, look, I'll buy you coffee. Let's, you know, we'll go up to the room. You need a drink or something. And then the funniest thing was, you know, he's Gallagher, you know, he's been living this life that I'm living right now in my hotel room for 30 years. He started walking

around the lobby. He's like, wait a minute. And he looked down the hall and there was a banquet hall. And, you know, he looks at, he's like, come here, come here. I'll show you something. So we're walking down. There's this banquet hall that looks like it was set up for an event. He goes, if we're real cool, if we're real quiet, we can just go in there and just get some coffee. But you got to be cool.

And I'm like, yeah, I know this trick. You know, it's like, hey, yeah, I'm supposed to be here. Is this coffee for everybody if you get caught? But there was no coffee there. So we came up to my room and he ate some chocolate chip cookies that one of you made. And we had this conversation. So here is half of what would have been a whole interview with Gallagher from Portland, Oregon. Portland, Oregon.

I'm here with Gallagher in my hotel room in Portland, Oregon. You're doing what tomorrow? Nothing. What's the gig? Oh, there's a TV show for some kind of a jazz festival that Craig puts on. Yeah. Who's Craig? Well, he's a guy that's been working with me helping me to

get some opportunities and show business. You know, these kids are all so young they don't know who I am. Is that true? I think everybody knows who you are. I don't think they put you into a proper perspective, but I think everyone knows who you are. You do? Of course they do.

I think that the name itself may have different connotations to people. It may not be what you want, but I think everyone knows who you are. I would find it bizarre if someone didn't know who you were. Well, why don't I have my own TV show then? If I'm a well-known comic, shouldn't I have a talk show, a sitcom, some kind of reality show?

You have had more... Why doesn't my phone ring? Well, it's been a long time, Gallagher. What? So what? Are you going to tell this comedy audience that comedians get old and they're not effective and they lose their chops?

How many specials have you had? 14. On Showtime and HBO? Yeah, from the 80s to the middle of the 90s. So I haven't performed as long as I did perform. You have had an incredible career by most. If you were to look at your career, you're a household name. You were mythic in the 80s.

Everyone fucking knew who you were. So let's go back because I was a doorman at the comedy store. Now, where did you come from? And how did you find your way to the fucking comedy store? comedy store now how where did you come from and how did you find your way to the fucking comedy store remember the doorman that was um the father of uh that kid who wasn't that great of a comic so he became an agent i don't know that's before my time i mean i was a doorman in 87 alan burski mr burski you don't remember mr burski freddie prince's gun was rumored to belong to uh alan bersky that's how that's how he fits in rumored of course it was why do you say that because alan liked guns and

he played around and with the two of those guys were friends and sure but you can get guns in la i'm not going to blame alan anyone can get a gun in this country in in la but a funny thing happened one day you know that mr bersky lived in this apartment house and every time something was open he would suggest it to one of the comics down at the store and he filled the place up with comics now uh that comic that did like 60 tonight shows but and didn't get to be the host this is how i talk now that i'm sammy shore i can't remember anybody andreessen tom treason okay tom did like 60 everybody thought he was going to be the new This is how I talk now that I'm old. Sammy Shore. I can't remember anybody. Dreesen. Tom Dreesen. Tom did like 60.

Everybody thought he was going to be the new Johnny Carson because he wore a suit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he had a bunch of... He's still around, right? He opened for Frank Sinatra, too. Which was the kiss of death, just like my Sledge-O-Matic. It takes you out of town and you come back and guys that aren't as talented as you and don't have an act and can't have a career all of a sudden get a TV.

Let's start at the beginning. Where'd you start? No, Tom Dreesen needs to go. Mr. Burski's having a heart attack. Right. And Tom says, I'd like to stay, but I'm doing The Tonight Show. And so, of course, Mr. Burski understood. Isn't that the craziest show business?

Yeah, very selfish. Very selfish. Do another. Oh, we got to do it. It's the Tonight Show, which used to be a real bottleneck for comedy. You had to be on the Tonight Show, and you almost had to have Johnny like you and call you over to the desk. How long did it take you to get on the show? A long time, because Johnny didn't like prop comics but he's a magician figure that out i

understand boxes and silks and bunnies and cards on tv well he shouldn't have ever said that but they would let me on if i you know what i did what i made up a routine about the tonight show called the tonight show home game yeah i put johnny in a little suitcase and when i opened it up he popped out and you pulled one string and he touched his tie and the other string he threw his pencil i showed this routine to the set director yeah because he was a partner with the guy who owns the magic castle with this club in santa monica the mayfair music hall where i was appearing right and he said i want you to come into a production meeting,

do this little routine, and leave. Don't talk to anybody. Just do what you just did and leave. And it got me on the show. And you did how many? I must have done about nine or ten. I could be on with a guest host. So I was on with Kenny Rogers because I was his opening act for a year.

I don't think I was on with Kenny Rogers because I was his opening act for a year. David Brenner? I don't think I was on with... No. I was on with comedians. I guess those guys were comedians too. Joan Rivers, I think, one time. See, you keep making me come up with people's names. But I'm curious about where'd you come from and how'd you start? Why comedy?

I mean, because you're a fairly defined act. I thought you might have been a street performer, but you're not. No. You never came from that. No. I was watching comics and I felt like I could do it better, and so I just started and I did it. But what was your first job in show business?

Opening for Kenny Rogers. Oh, really? So the country music world? I just stayed in L.A. and did talk shows and pretended I was famous. I noticed that if you're on the talk shows, everybody thinks you're famous. So you just act like you're famous. And I met Kenny

Rogers' manager there, and he said, I'll let you open for Kenny for a year. A hundred shows at $5,000 a night was a half a million dollar deal. And was he a good guy? The manager? Or Kenny? Yeah. i'm not gonna tell tales no so now who was in there well he almost fired me the first night i told a prick joke but about a prick or that someone is well about the iranians because it was the time of the uh hostage crisis and the first job was opening this 14 000 seat auditorium in in dallas texas the reunion center yeah that was the first job

on mother's day and his mom drives in from conroe and i say why can't you circumcise an iranian you can't there ain't no end to them pricks. And they get a big reaction from a Texas audience. Right. You know, because they're real pro-American. And so he wanted to fire me the first night. And that was it? Yeah.

But you stayed on? Yeah, I stayed on. How'd you apologize? I didn't. Come on. You must have groveled a little bit. When it gets a big cheer? Yeah, but so. No, I wasn't sorry. I did my job right. I didn't. Come on. You must have groveled a little bit. When it gets a big cheer? No, I wasn't sorry.

I did my job right. Uh-huh. By, by, by. He's the one that brought his mommy. He brought your mommy to the show for criminy. Well, who was in your class at the comedy store? Were you there with Letterman? I saw everybody.

I was. Was it 1970? I was there before it was the Comedy Store. I saw Sammy make a deal with Art LeBeau. Yeah. And I saw Mitzi sitting with a cigar box at the front door taking door money. Right. And Art got the drinks.

Right. And I talked to her through the whole business. When she bought the business from Art LeBeau. Then when she wouldn't give the comics any money and she bought a mansion nearby. Did you strike? We met at my house. Yeah? So you were a union organizer?

I was let's share the wealth. Why would guys come down here and do a show? So you have a socialist thread in you. Who would know? It's not socialist. I'm making a joke. Only in L.A. do they think you should work for free. Yeah.

Okay, so you guys met at your house, and who was in that crew? Jeff Altman? Jay Leno came by. Jay Leno? But he was just laughing at us. Jay always said, just take whatever money they'll give you. Yeah, see, I tend to agree with you on that. I think working for nothing, even if it's worth it. For some reason,

Jay Leno and David Letterman knew they were going to have a talk show. Somehow they had an inside track. You think it was an inside track or just focus? It didn't matter whether they had an act or not. You know, Jay's act was very forgettable. And he ran around, just like Tom

Dreesen, opening for washed up old singers you know but now but but isn't that just a career trajectory i mean if you're up there you know doing what you do i mean your your idea was not to get a talk show i mean i wouldn't have minded a talk no but i thought if you can be a good live performer you ought to be able to sit down and talk but where do you fit interviews in between, you know, dancing around and smashing sheets? Well, how did Jay and Dave get good at interviews? They stood still, and they wore a suit. Oh, and they're really good at interviews.

Jay says, you used to model before you got into acting. I practiced that. You used to model before you got into acting. I'm not saying the message. Why can't I have the tonight show? I am not defending Jay Leno. I'm just saying that, you know, your career, your decision in the type of showman you were going to be was different than theirs. No, it wasn't.

I got jobs and had to leave town. And for some reason, they had this inside track. Dave used to say to me, I don't need to have an act. I'm going to have a talk show. Right, because that's what he wanted to do. Well, they gave him one out in L.A. and it bombed terrible. But did you want to have a talk show. Right, because that's what he wanted to do. Well, they gave him one out in L.A., and it bombed terrible. But did you want to do a talk show? I wanted to make big money.

Okay, well, that's different. So you chose your angle. Well, I can do anything. You made big money. Uh-huh. Didn't you? I did it the hard way, though. I sold a live ticket.

That's right. How would you like to sell a live ticket and a downturn? Well, I'm about there. I mean, you know, I'm still doing stand-up. Well, I have my pulse on the economy because I get a call all the time. Is that the economy calling now? I don't know.

Isn't that your phone? I guess. So let me just go back. Now, in the beginning, for you, when you decided to, you were always a prop comic, and I'm not negating that, but the Sledge-O-Matic was what turned it around, right?

It was the first routine I wrote. First. It was the reason that I considered comedy, is because I did so well with my first routine. Which was the Sledge-O-Matic. Yeah, I was watching the Vegematic guy on TV, and I thought, well, why do they chop it up when you're going to chew it? And I said, they ought to just hit it with a hammer.

And then I noticed that veg and sledge rhymed, and so I wrote the routine. I sent it to George Carlin. Yeah. George wrote me back and said he writes all his own material. That was it. He just said I write all my own material. But he did write you back. But he was nice enough to write me back.

Albert Einstein did not. Albert Brooks is... Right. Yeah. You wrote Albert Brooks with the So Legendary. I gave it, I sent it to both. Yeah, and Albert didn't write back. No.

So why were you sending it off? You were performing already, or you hadn't started? No, I wasn't a comedian. I was a chemist. You were a chemist? Yeah. What was your future plan then? Crystal meth?

I was going to save the world. Oh, really? Well, one way or another, with my creativity. Creativity can be in any field. I've got patents now. You know, I use my creativity to invent things instead of make props. How did you see yourself saving the world with chemistry? What would you want to do?

Well, cancer research or, well, it could have been energy. Was the path just too long for you at the time? I mean, did you not want to? I got diverted with this damn lucrative comedy thing. But I still meet with physics departments as I travel around the country. About what? Well, I talk to them about subatomic particles and how we could make the whole field more approachable to the average person. People are exposed. Make it approachable to me because I don't understand. It's vague.

Okay. What's going through your head right now as you receive cell phone calls, a photon or an electron? I'm going to choose electron. You think you're being hit by lightning do you see we don't understand the technology that we use and we don't know the risk that we're taking for our with our bodies our dna an electron has weight like is it a photon or electron it's a photon okay it has no weight so it has to be at a very high frequency yeah to your DNA. That's what cancer is, broken DNA. Right, renegade cells. Renegade DNA. Right, renegade DNA, looking for a body, trying to build a body for itself.

No, it's been turned on. Okay. The switch has been turned on for it to replicate cells, and it goes out of control. And so without an organic complex, it makes tumors. Without any organization, it makes a tumor. It's actually healthy cells, new cells in a gob that are unorganized. And now what is this? These kids study Pokemon cards.

It's a little dated, but I get your point. They learn the powers and characteristics of meaningless things. That's right. The powers and characteristics of meaningless things. That's right. Instead of what's a photon, an electron, a neutrino, an up quark, and a down quark. So I want to make a boy band or a basketball team, a cartoon show. I have the rights to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. This isn't the first cartoon project.

You have the rights to them? I met them when they first started. The original band? Eastman and Laird were these guys in New England, and they had this idea, and they showed me the drawings, but they had no story ideas. And they did their career backwards. They sold the toys first, so they couldn't get a movie deal. So I got the movie rights. So you made some money off of that?

No. We made a deal. Well, actually, I did with Golden Harvest. Which was a production company? Raymond Chow. Yeah. Oh, I remember that guy. Right.

Well, he put the money in the Netherlands Antilles. You had to get a Dutch lawyer to chase it down. So you got screwed. I didn't get any money. All right. So now you want to teach the kids that they're getting tumors from their cell phones. I want them to understand what women do when they put their breast on a plate to have a breast exam. What is it, a CT scan?

Is it magnetic resonance? It's an electron PET scan, has electrons. How do you feel about the full body scanners? Are they projecting electrons? Do you opt out? Do you get the pat down? Oh, you mean at the airport? No, there's nothing harmful there.

In the full body scanners? No. How do you know? Because I know. What do you mean? It's not electrons. It's all about electrons? Yeah.

So you're actually concerned with the health and awareness of people in this world. We use technology before we understand it. Drugs also. Some people are killed by that. They find out we guinea pigs. We just accept what's new and see if it hurts. Now, my question to you, then, is, is that, you know, you have this streak where you're a progressive thinker, you're a creative thinker. And I think that on some level, in retrospect, you can see the sledge-o-matic as a commentary on consumer culture. It was a satire. Okay, I understand that. The problem is the fights at a hockey match, right?

My act was a hockey match, and instead a fight broke out, and everybody came back for the fight. Or the wrecks at a car race. Right, there was an anarchy to it. Well, they just wanted the smashing and didn't care about my insightful satire of buying meaningless things. Now we fast forward to where we are now and you've got this reputation of being

a racist and a homophobe. There are jokes you do that are a little vicious. They are not. I've watched these Comedy Central roasts, and I don't say anything. A roast is a context.

There is a context to that. A context. And what's my problem? There's no context in a comedy show? No, there is a context, but I'm just saying that when you attack gay people or you attack... Attack?

Yeah. I don't attack them. You make fun of them in a very aggressive way. Okay, let's say I tell a joke about a white middle-class man. I don't attack them. You make fun of them in a very aggressive way. Let's say I tell a joke about a white middle-class man. Does anybody say, why do I not like white middle-class men? I think that's a false... Why?

Because it is. It's one area of our society is sensitive and can't take a joke. And what am I making jokes about? I'm making jokes about people who don't complain. Well, tell me some of your jokes about homosexuals. Just out of curiosity. I don't have any jokes about homosexuals, but I might tell a joke. I haven't written any.

I tell jokes somebody else wrote. What are they? What do you mean? What are my really good homosexual jokes? Yeah, yeah. What does Siegfried have in common with the tiger? They both know what Roy tastes like. Why don't lesbians lose weight?

You can't put Jenny Craig in your mouth with Mary Kay on your face. I mean, they're jokes. But how do you feel about it? It's a nightclub. I understand what you're saying. It's a nightclub for your particular audience. My audience? Sure.

If you were to do that here in Portland in a particular audience now or in Seattle, just out of curiosity, I'm not attacking you. Now remember, I did work in Portland recently. Yeah, and who came out? All my fans. It's a nightclub. It's your fans, right? Right. Okay, so it's specific.

It has nothing to do with what their opinion is about homosexuals. You sure? You don't think you're feeding a fire of intolerance at all? I mean, I'm just asking. By repeating a joke I heard on the street. Well, I mean, you've got to take responsibility. You're saying it. I mean, I understand it's a street joke, but some of those are pretty awful, too. I'm just saying that you're pigeonholing a group. How could you... Why make fun of them?

Uh-huh. Why make fun of them in that way? Why minimize them and their way of life? Minimize? Sure. Sure. Well, can I pick on Arabs? Can you? Can I? Where are you drawing the line? Where does it

come from? The joke. What do you mean? What is your incentive? They're the enemy. I've got to do a pass out. All Arabs are the enemy. For some reason I've got to be at the airport two hours early. That's because some specific people of Arab descent did something awful. Are there just some homosexuals

that can't take a joke? No, I'm just saying that to generalize. Here's what the problem is. There'll be a homosexual comedian who will stand on stage and talk about straight people all night long. Is that true?

Of course! I've only heard homosexual comedians talk about their gayness. Well, isn't that the same as but isn't that empowering and if you come up there and say these facts and i can't talk about my straightness you can well well do you have to make fun of homosexuals in order to do that here's what comedy is it's a reversal uh-huh why did they always give the con the funny line to the kid in a sitcom? Tell me. Because it's not right that the kid is smarter than the parents.

It's wrong. It's a reversal. So having a female spirit in a male body or a male spirit in a female body is a reversal. It's God's joke. Okay. Well, I understand that you believe in God. Do you believe in God? No. Okay. I didn't think so. Now, well, I understand that. You believe in God. Do you believe in God? No.

Okay, I didn't think so. Now, let me say something else. So now, my question is... Look, I'm a comic. I don't believe in anything. I know that. If you tell me you care about something, I'm going to smash it.

You're going to smash me? I'm going to teach you that it's not as important as you think, and you should laugh about it. I understand that. But my question is that when you isolate Arabs or you isolate homosexuals, your personal feeling about that, you don't care. Do you have anything against gay people?

If people didn't laugh, I wouldn't say it. But do you have anything against gay people? Now you want to blame me? Do you have anything against gay people? You're going to blame me. Do you have anything against... No. No, you don't.

Do you have anything against Arabs? How can you be in show business? I'm just asking you. Do you have anything against... No. No, you don't. Do you have anything against Arabs? How can you be in show business? I'm just asking you. Do you have anything against Arabs in a general way? I understand gays better than I do Arabs. Okay, but I mean... I don't really know anything about... Because you're being associated with a type of right-wing thinking that is destructive.

I? Me? Yeah. Where'd you get your information for this interview? I just read a couple articles. There's no information. Do you believe it? I'm asking a couple articles. There's no information. Do you believe it? I'm asking you.

I'm a comic. Okay. But see, I think that you are a businessman, and if anything politically, you're probably more libertarian than anything else. Right? I don't care. You just want to make money. No.

I don't even care about that. I have two stents in my heart. I could die during this interview. That would be spectacular. It would. That would be a great interview. It would. I would leave during this interview. That would be spectacular. It would. That would be a great interview. It would. I would leave it running when the paramedics come.

It would last about half an hour. But do you, so basically you're just playing for your audience. No. I am telling them things they'll laugh at and they enjoy it. What if it hurts people's feelings? And what if people see it as isolating and vicious? Does that bother you? Is as isolating and vicious? Does that bother you? Isolating and vicious?

Sure. If you isolate a group of people and say, you're all this, you're all that, it gets construed as racism or sexism or anything else. What about Lisa Lampanelli? What about her? She's an angry woman who talks from her own point of view. About black people. That she has sex with. Are you having sex with gay men?

Who knows she has sex with these guys? I do. I met her when she started. That's all she talked about was fucking black guys. If it's the truth, you're allowed to say the N-word. I think to a certain degree, yes. I don't say the N-word. I don't do any black jokes.

Mm-hmm. Okay, well, that's very big of you. Now, why don't you? Why don't you repeat those three jokes? There's no blacks in my audience. So you think it would be rude? Not one. No.

Do you think there are homosexuals in your audience? Oh, yeah. Yeah? Oh, yeah. Did they come up to you and thank you afterwards? Oh, no. Oh, no. What did they say to you?

They either tell me a better joke than I told, and they laugh about it. I work biker conventions. Well, I'm sure you do. Don't you think that there's lesbians in leather riding bikes? Let me tell you this. I'm not doubting you. I never see a guy on the back of a bike that a woman is driving. There are sexual roles in America, and when you break them, it's funny.

I know, but all I'm questioning is your sensitivity to some of the flack you've gotten recently. I'm not sensitive. I think they're all idiots. Everybody. I think you think everyone's an idiot, right? For the most part. If they're missing the point. I'm a comedian! I'm not running for political office! I know, but you're speaking out loud to a group of people.

Who are drinking! But if you say all those people that aren't here, those people that are sensitive and trying to find their way in the world, they're all fucking idiots. What is the use of humor? What do you think? What is the use of humor in our society? To disarm and educate. That's right. To release tension and aggression.

That's right. If I say something about a topic that people burst into laughter about, I'm going to be the doctor, and I'm going to tell you that you have a pain there, you have an irritation, you have an inflammation, you have a problem. So the fact that the country laughs at lesbian jokes means they have a problem with it. But to displace the humor, to attack a group of people that is already victim. You must be really irritated that the House is now Republican. Can you explain this backlash? Sure I can.

Over the health? Yeah, but it's a misinterpretation of the health plan. Blah, blah, blah. Right. LA and New York has never been able to understand the middle of this country. Wait a minute. I understand you. Of course I do.

You do not. Of course I do. Well, you better have some lesbian jokes. No, I don't. I don't need lesbian jokes. I'm a free thinker. I don't need street jokes either. You know, I mean, a free thinker is different.

I'm a free thinker. Sure. It's a nightclub. I understand the context. It's not therapy. I understand. Yes, it is therapy on some level. Not for you.

No, but if you just said to me that your job is to release aggression and disarm prejudice. Of the audience. That's right. You don't care about the audience. Then you're a aggression and disarm prejudice. Of the audience. That's right. You don't care about the audience. Then you're a therapist. Of course I care about the audience. No, you don't. Of course I do.

Do you change it when you're in Oklahoma from when you're in Portland? Why would I? Because they're different people. Are people different? Yes. Are people really different? I'll tell you where you can't tell a lesbian. Are people different?

Oh, yeah. You're saying that the wiring of people, someone who understands DNA, you're going to tell me that people are different. Well, you can't tell a lesbian joke in Boston, Minneapolis, Portland, and Seattle. Why? Because they'll boo you. Because why? Their politics is different.

Their politics or their sensitivity to people who are a specific group of people that are being made fun of at the brunt of a joke to release the aggression of narrow-minded people as some sort of form of entertainment is offensive to them that's why so my question is if by releasing aggression in an audience is by saying like the arabs stink they're all evil or gays are fucked and that releases aggression how is it not just reaffirming fucking prejudice and intolerance in that group of people? You think I have the power by telling a joke to rally people around... To laugh. To laugh.

You rally people to laugh at what? Because they identify with your prejudice. That's why they're laughing. I get that. I hate fags too. Is that releasing aggression in a healthy way? Hate. Sure.

There's not hate involved here. We're telling jokes. Oh, there's a lot of hate and jokes. Come on. You're too. You've been doing this too long. You're an angry man. You understand a victim.

I'm not angry. Really? You're a guy that smashes things. Do you think I'm mad every night? No, I'm not saying you're mad. Do you think I'm mad regularly? Friday night, 8 o'clock, Saturday night, 8 o'clock. No, I'm saying maybe Saturday morning.

Maybe there's a little acting in this. No, I'm not denying your act is not filled with hate, but I'm saying that just the fact that you feel... I tell five lesbian jokes, and you went and found an article written about me. I'm just asking you a question. And decided that not only have you put me in jokes and you went and found an article written about me i'm just asking you a question decided that that not only will have you put me in the pigeonhole i'm not pigeonholing you i'm just asking questions no you're not of course i am you are working your politics i am not what's

my politics your politics is left wing okay you're most at home in boston minneapolis boston is not left wing oh it is i'm most but But I don't talk about politics on stage as much as I used to. Here's Boston's problem. But what I'm saying to you is I'm a comedian and I will push the envelope. And I understand what you're saying. But there's a difference between

releasing aggression and making people look at something differently. Why do you think I tell a really bad... I told you all the jokes I tell I heard. I know, so that just means that you're taking... That's a society I'm reflecting. Yeah, but you're not even using your own material to victimize these groups of people. Well, I don't tell them all the time either.

Somebody was seeing one of my shows, and out of 200 jokes, they've chosen five lesbian jokes or gay jokes to focus on. The only reason, I'm not concerned with I don't have a political agenda here. I'm just saying that culturally you've got a reputation. So you read a couple of articles before this interview and decided whoever wrote them was righter than me. No, no, no.

I just ask you the jokes and you address the jokes. I put you in the context of the history of comedy. You were a profound presence on the comedy scene. I had 14 one-hour shows. I must have written some original material. I'm not saying you didn't write original material. I'm just asking where you're coming from. I was just asking where you're coming from. That's all.

I respect you as a comedian. Do you see any lesbian jokes in my 14 one-hour shows? No. No. But what happened? One night, I told some I heard on the street. Everybody's up in arms over it. No, no, but why the shift? It's not a shift.

It's only five jokes. I do a two-hour, two-and-a-half, sometimes three hours. I get on at eight, I'm off at 11. Okay. Everybody focuses on one thing. No, no, I focus on all of it. I'm the problem. Do you think when I'm dead, gays will finally have an opportunity in America?

Have I really been holding them down? No, you don't hold gays down. Well, then what's your problem with me? No, I don't have any problem with you. I'm just saying that you reaffirm prejudice by making fun of them. Okay, can we tell a Jew joke that they don't want to pay? Why? It's not true. It's not true? Why do people laugh?

Because it's a stereotype that's been established. Most people that you laugh at those jokes don't even have a Jew in their life. I didn't say you can do whatever you want. You can do whatever you want. Black comedians only talk about the difference between blacks and whites. Well, there are some stereotypes.

Look, I am a person that thinks that some stereotypes, some parts of stereotypes are obviously true. The entire act is picking on white people that they don't do it right. Or talking about black community stuff. And I understand that there are stereotypes that fit, but the Jew and the money thing. And fat people only talk about fat.

There's this midget comic that only does midget jokes. I watched his whole act one night. Well, what else is he going to do? That's his wife. No, he could be generally funny. There's a comedian. But he's getting laughs. But by your context, if he's getting laughs, what the hell is he going to do? That's his wife. No, he could be generally funny. There's a comedian. But he's getting laughs. But by your context,

if he's getting laughs, Yeah, change the subject. We're bored. Are they if they're still laughing? Yeah, no. There's no dynamics. Most comedians are terrible. They should listen to me.

Okay, I will hear you out. And I help him when I can. What is your problem with most comedians? Well, like I just said, their show has no dynamics and it's not a show based on their knowledge of the audience. It's a show about them. And comedy is not therapy just because it's a truth.

Wait a minute. But if you're talking about a show about them, if you're saying that a person that talks about themselves on stage is not a comedian, then you're dismissing a great many great comics. Yeah. Yeah. They did it wrong. No no they didn't do it okay you walk into doctor's office and he talks about his problems instead of that's an old joke if a comedian talks about himself and that is funny if a comedian is a storyteller that you see by your by your rubric you're dismissing he can't

work at state fair who the fuck wants to work at State Fair necessarily? Everybody. Really? Yeah. So in order to work at State Fair, you have to take the Gallagher class. You have to work faster and more general. There are families out there, and they're not interested in your long, subtle stories. Okay, that's fine. That's the State Fair circuit. But the comedy club circuit, the cabaret circuit, can indulge a different.

Why can't you just see it as all being part of show business? Why are you angry? Because there's no show involved. There are a bunch of slovenly. They hunch over. They turn their back on the audience. They take a drink of water. It's show business.

Why are you drawing lines? Why are you taking the other side of everything I say? I'm not. I'm just saying that. You are. Why did you want me to do this interview if you don't think I know anything

about what you're asking me about? I'm just telling... I'm done. You're done? I'm done. You're just arguing. It's Howard Stern and... I'm not.

I was just having a conversation. No, you're not. I have more respect for comedy. You're trying to be controversial. I am not. Yes, you are. You're just arguing with me. I have 30 years of experience. Well, then about comedy i just think that show business is show

business well then just why don't you do the interview and tell people your opinion we were having a good conversation oh come on gallagher all right well that didn't well maybe it really went well i don't know i'm certainly not going to chase after him so that was that that was it that was what happened with gallagher and myself and even listening to it for a third time now what is to be brought away from this other than this is where a career in comedy can

end up a career in anything can end up God knows there's plenty of people out there that are experiencing frustration because they've reached a certain age and they don't feel like they're useful anymore there's anger there other than that you make your own decisions about what you heard you definitely see who he is so rest in peace Gallagher and uh ah come on Gallagher come on um I'm really glad that this conversation exists because

it's uh it's unique and I imagine he'll be missed by some people but I hope this makes people remember him fondly or not. And Godspeed, Gallagher. Don't forget your hammer.