WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Issa Rae on Friendships That Need to Go, from IMO

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

Sharing a new show from our friends at Higher Ground. On IMO, Michelle and her big brother Craig Robinson bring their candid perspectives to the everyday questions shaping our lives, relationships and the world around us. Each week, they’re joined by a guest to tackle real questions from real folks just like you offering practical advice, personal storytelling, and plenty of laughs. Topics range from dating and relationships, to family and faith. Michelle and Craig share stories about being there for each other throughout their lives, from first crushes and fraught college years, to landing at the White House, to losing their mom. For six decades they’ve been each others’ most trusted counsel—and now, they want to be that counsel for you. In this episode, they’re joined by actress Issa Rae for a conversation about navigating the challenges of mismatched expectations in adult friendships.You can find more episodes of IMO at https://lnk.to/imomichellecraigMM Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey folks, how's it going? What's happening? Look, this is something a little different and special we're doing today. And frankly, it was an honor to be asked to do it. What you're about to hear is not an episode of WTF. Okay? Today, we're going to turn over this feed to someone else. And that person is the former First Lady of the United States, Michelle Obama. Now, I'm not sure if you know this, but her husband and I go way back. Yeah, he came by my house a few years ago now, but he stopped by.

Big day. The new show is called IMO with Michelle Obama and her big brother, Craig Robinson. And each week, they're joined by a guest to answer questions from real folks like you, anybody, maybe even me. You'll get practical advice, personal stories, plenty of laughs about everything from dating and relationships to family and faith.

Runs the spectrum. For six decades, Michelle and Craig have been each other's most trusted counsel, and now they will be that for you. Okay, so in this episode, they're joined by actress Issa Rae for a conversation about navigating the challenges of adult friendships. This is something I can relate to directly, having, you know, had some strained friendships in my adulthood, and it's weird. It's different than when you're a kid. But that said, you can find more episodes of IMO wherever you get podcasts.

Okay, so here it comes. Enjoy. Like the crisis would require an emergency session. Oh my God. Like somebody's on a train. Yeah, flying. You know, there's movement. And you're not going to deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming.

We're coming. It's a crisis. My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like this is, took off work. That is a script. That is something that you could write on television. I'm just like, plan on doing a text like, you know, she not gonna be good.

Like, she doesn't need this right now, you know? Right, right. You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn. Yeah. That's it. Not a crisis. Damn.

Sorry. Sorry. Send a dog emoji. Or dude, I didn't know you had a dog. Yeah. What? Where'd you get a dog? Okay. We are here, man. Dude, I didn't know you had a dog. Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog?

Okay, we are here, man. ["The New York Times"] Hey, well, hi again, you. It's you again. Oh, I like your, is that pink? It's my wife called it coral, but it could be pink. Yeah, it is coral and it's a little pleated. Well, this is breaking out of the, you know,

basketball thing. Watch out now. And that little collar. Okay, I see you, Craig Robinson. I am thrilled that you like my clothes. Yeah, I know. See you guys, it's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space. You know, you don't even need much closet space, but you're stepping out.

You're stepping out. Thank you. What's new and exciting? Well, I got to tell you, while we're out here in LA, Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in. And since you won't be able to drive one, since you don't drive. I might. No, no, I'm starting to drive.

Really? Yeah, I can drive. How's that? How's the Secret Service letting you drive? Well, it's a secret. You could take me for a spin. They'll let me take you for a spin? Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee

and the boys wanted me to pick them up from school? And we did. And you tooled up in a motorcade to their school? In the pickup line. They were just like, Niche! I was like, yeah, yeah. Four cars deep in the pickup line. Four SUVs deep. I'm sure their friends were like, what the heck?

Oh, and then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like, meh. I'm like, shh. It's like, get in and don't touch the guns. I do remember that. No. No. Oh my goodness.

But so we're talking about friendship today. Yeah. And people know by now that you and I are like, have been best friends since you were born. Yep. Cause it couldn't happen before then. Nope. It could not happen before then. But my first question to you is how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little? Like the little, little, I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little, little time.

Although as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral. They did, right. And two of my girl girls from grammar school, the Gores, Pam and Nikki, and they had a little sister, Gina, but they came to the funeral. And it was funny, we got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't missed a minute with them.

So we vowed to keep in touch, but outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least, almost at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life. So what I found is like, one of my best friend roommate who you know, Angela from Princeton, she was my roommate. She's my girl. Always talked to her from law school. My friend Verna just went to her house for lunch just the other day. She's in DC, you know, and then they're my mom friends because as I got married, but then even before that, that was Pam.

She was more my professional friend. Mm-hmm. When I was, when we were grownups and had jobs at law firms. And, you know, I could go on and on like that. And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said when Barack won and we got into the White House, you know, one of the things you were like, no new friends. That's it. And I was like, ah, you know. I did say that.

Yeah. You were kind of joking, but it was important for me in the normalcy of my life to be able to, to keep my life normal, even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends. Right, and this today's show is talking about differences with those friends and falling out of friendship

with good friends. And I'm just thinking, see, guys are a little different. Guys are, their friendships are more transactional, right? What do you mean by that? Well, what I mean is after sort of grammar school and high school where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character, most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a

sporting event, you've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't want to go, so you, all right, I'm going to take three friends. It's like, okay, let's be friends. Come to the game with me. But guys do that, guys. That's why y'all are broken. We are not broken, but we don't go as deep. Yeah.

So if something happens, we're not as hurt. Is that, are you, does that mean y'all scared? Is that what goes on all the time? No, nobody said I was scared. It's just a... I don't want my feelings hurt, so I can't know you. Is that, are you, does that mean y'all scared? Is that what it feels like all the time y'all scared? Nobody said I was scared. I don't want my feelings hurt so I can't know you. It's a, it's just a function of how we socialize with each other. And, and like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year, or I could

talk to every week, and the relationship is mostly the same. That's because y'all don't talk about nothing. Well, we don't. You're right about that. It's hard to go deep. You know when we go deep is when it's too late. Deathbed.

It's like, woo. Or you know. Bubba, I wish I had asked him about his family. We're getting a divorce. Oh, man. Then there's some tragedy. It's like, why didn't you say anything? I didn't say anything because I didn't want to burden you and I was going to thug through

it myself. But today's show, we're going to talk about sort of falling out of friendship with close friends. We are are company. We do have company. And I can't tell you how excited I am for this company, because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch Rom-Comish type shows. And my wife said, you got to watch this insecure.

And I'm like, I'm not watching it. And she said, you got to watch it. It's good. And I said, I gotta watch this insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. And she said, you gotta watch it, it's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And she said, you're gonna like it. I said, I'm not gonna like it. She made me watch the first two episodes back to back because she was like on episode four. I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad, I watched the first one,

and I was like, all right, it's not bad. I watched the second one, and then I watched the third and the fourth, because I was only going to watch the first two. And I just fell in love with this actress who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer and she was now getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a community folk, you know?

Yeah. Kind of like y'all. Yeah. Just in the community doing stuff for black folks. Giving it back. Giving it back and just so supremely talented. Let's bring on Issa Rae. Issa, watch him.

Watch him. See, I'm just meeting her for the first time. Oh, so happy to have you here. Watch over her. She'll be okay. Well, welcome to the table. Thank you so much. I was just nodding and mm-hmm back there. I had so many times I wanted to jump in.

Y'all, seriously. Well, what's been going on? How are you? Oh, so much. I wanted to jump in. Y'all, seriously. Well, what's been going on? How are you? I'm doing really well. I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned a restaurant that is called Summerville. That's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about. What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant?

Is that a dream or was it just circumstantial? You know, it's twofold. I've always said if I wasn't a writer, I'd be a bartender or a waitress. Really? Okay, well there you go. I like the food environment. I love serving. I love hosting. And there is a degree of that.

And I love eating out. And so, since I was young, I've even played, like doing play dates with my brother, my little brother. Our play dates would be- Restaurant. Restaurant, yes, and I would be the bossy restaurant owner. Sounds familiar. And then also, I remember having my best friend

and I have the same birthday and it was like the 30 something birthday. You're a Capricorn too. I'm a Capricorn. Like me 17. Yes, you already know. 12th over here. That's why we bossy.

Yeah, I know. I don't like to admit it. I want to give my mother that satisfaction. But we were just out. We always celebrate our birthdays together. We went to dinner. Uh huh. And we were just like, uh, let's go.

Like we're trying to go out. And in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club. You're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time. It was so hard. We went to, like, so many different spots, and it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just... And it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from L.A.

We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that was, like, my villain villain origin story where I was like, I want that in my neighborhood. Man, doing it with your little baby boss self. Were you going to say something? I wanted to find out. Go ahead.

As we talk about friendships and we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships. But something people ask me, which applies to you, is that as you've become Issa Rae, how has that affected friendships for you or has it? Have you become more cautious? Have people come in and out of your life? Have you, have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently? You felt like you needed to think about friendships differently given your, you know, your ascent and who you become? I have been very lucky that I've had, you know, friends since high school who are, because I'm from LA and there is a sense of this feeling like my job.

Like I don't, I didn't move here to become myself. I was already here and I grew up around this environment and a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is Joisa Jobe. That's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, those are people who don't really know me. And the people who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation. But I've had, I've definitely had friendship breakups as a result. Some as a result of working together as we both descended.

Some as a result of not being able to handle the change in position, the time. Like I have a friend who I thought I was going to be friends with forever. But she went through two major milestones. kind of traumatic milestones, really young. She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things and I didn't, as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was actually strike two, I think, on my part for her. Strike one was her father died when she was in college.

And she was the first friend whose parent had passed away. And I felt like I wasn't equipped to truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started like, rising in my own career. And I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously. So we fell apart and drifted apart and we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was one of my most painful friendship breakups. Cause it wasn't acknowledged in that way.

But I haven't had any like, you're famous, I'm using you type things. Well, that's a perfect segue for our listener letter. It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So, Natalie, are you ready to read us the letter? Let's do it. All right. Ooh, yes.

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Eva and I'm 32 years old. In my early 20s, I met my friend Kristen through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristin and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest though, my friendship with Kristin felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless, like both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in, show up for each other.

But I noticed right away that Kristin wanted to make plans pretty often. I'm a people pleaser, and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates. And when it came to my dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts, and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends.

Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristin. She's incredibly thoughtful, and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together, and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years. Recently though, Kristin lost a close family member and when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me.

She said people who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over. Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect.

But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners, but they are people we love and I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself. How do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations? Is it possible? What do adult friends owe each other? Thanks for your thoughts, Eva. That took so many turns. Yeah, right.

So, can I just say before we dig into this? There would never be a guy that wrote a question like that. We just don't, it's not our thing. Yeah, I just, I can speak for me, that wrote a question like that. We just don't, it's not our thing. Yeah, I just, I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated because we are, we go there. We are, you know, we, and we spend so much time

playing out the sociology. I think women, and I don't want to generalize, but women more so, we are sociologists. I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just gonna throw a ball.

We're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I wanna know why, how, tell me more. What did that, well, let's talk about that a little bit more. And in the process of that, you know, each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts, why it hurts so much. Absolutely. Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful. And they don't always last, but because of that,

you don't end it without the hurt, you know? It is complicated. Yeah, there's a piece of you that you're giving so many of... I mean, so many of the women in my life know things that I just would never share with anyone. That I've, as a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means like you mean a lot to me and that I see a future with you and automatically if I deem you as

a friend, then that's like for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable, or if I felt betrayed by you, that is devastating. And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend, to begin with. And then ultimately was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life. But there was, there were tinges of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship.

But it still felt like she was, in any version of this, I don't know, I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman, is the way that I read it. And that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways. The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships, and hurts is strong,

when I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity. Right? Because, you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that's, you know, that's always present. You know, someone in every relationship is given a little more, given a little less, you know, some people have more or less at a given time. I mean, people are complicated and flawed and all of us are. That has never been a problem for me. Like the complicated nature of my friends, right?

When I felt most, almost betrayed is when I felt like we're all at the table giving, sharing, and you weren't. You were at the table. But it's sort of like, like, it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through. There probably felt like a little emotional, you know, I felt emotionally robbed because it was like, you weren't telling me, you weren't telling me.

And maybe it's because you didn't trust me, you didn't trust yourself. See, she's still hot about it, can you tell? But I'm just using it as an example in the table of, for me at least, that becomes more important. And maybe it's because of who I am and trust and, you know, when you... And I let people in. So when I let people in, you're in.

Yep. You know, and I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself. But that means I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there. Or maybe she wasn't. Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship. Why?

If you really say, what's your problem? Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know, relationships ebb and flow. So it's rarely going to be where everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't life always out of balance? Yeah, I think I don't disagree with that. But there is the, if you're always showing up, if you're always the one that's checking in,

if you're, even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine. Like, tickets to the games, I'm always the one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you, and you're not there, like that's still, there's an imbalance. Like I'm always thinking of you first, but you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not gonna show up for me

in the same way that I show up for you. Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours. Yeah. I mean, that's a problem. You know, if I look, I don't mind hosting, I don't mind being... Because oftentimes in my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one. I have the resources. I've got the, you know, I have more of the special,

like, oh, guess what we can do? And there's a natural imbalance, but it's like, you, if you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner, even if it's just pizza... I know your effort is. Yes. Even if it's just pizza. Like, girl, I know you like pizza, and you invited me. This means a lot. You know? And I'm fine. I will meet you where you're at,

because I know that this is your love language. But you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort or that you don't rank as high on their list of friends. So what's your version of balanced in friendship? You know, I guess with me and my friends, because like you, I don't want to generalize, as long as every now and then somebody else buys a round of drinks or it's lightweight.

You use tickets, that tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means. So inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing, or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalency to me. Yeah, I agree. That's equivalency to me. What I... But what I don't get about this relationship

was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning. To your point, Issa, my friends and I don't, we don't roll that way. We're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it, we feel okay. We're just, we don't go as deep. And like you were saying, how you're,

it's sociology for women. It's not, it's carpentry for men. You know, it's just- It's shop. It's, I didn't want to say gym, but it's, we enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment. And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep. To what extent?

So like, even if I'm not getting in your business, but like for the divorce of it, right? We not getting in your business, but like for the divorce of it, right? We are getting in this business. So for the divorce, I told... We in your business. I told, like I told her everything. Okay. But she left out the reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would

work out. Because if it didn't work out and I got over it, she would never get over it. Oh, interesting. So I was trying to save everybody's relationship. Now, when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep. You did go deep with it. Yeah. So you actually brought up like, this is the thing that I'm going through. Or did you bring up, we're having problems and let's talk about...

Or did you wait until... Like I said at the outset, I waited until it was... So y'all, you didn't go deep. But no, see, now see, there's no timing to it. I mean... But there is. So it was deep for me. It was deep for me, irrespective of the time.

Just the mere fact that you told somebody the obvious. You told your friends... That it happened. That it happened. That it's happening. That it's happening, not that he... So, when you were going through it, right? Yes.

And it was hard, Who did you talk to? I talked to two really good friends of mine. And we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday after the market stopped trading. And we'd have cigars and margaritas. And it was three of us. And we had one chair in the middle. So it was the whoever, and we called it the chair of angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the chair of angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the chair of angst for like seven months because I was going through this. And I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family

because I didn't want... If I could somehow kick-save this thing, then I could tell them after the fact, yeah, you know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family. And if I... He's right about that? Is he right?

It's sort of right. We would have been... But, you know, you do what your family needs at the time. You know? There's no way we wouldn't have gone through a recovery of things. It would just have been good to know that before it was like, everything's great and now everything is over. That's how we found out. That's how they found out. They found out.

So it was like, what? How did, you know, it's sort of the sharpness of it. I'm not saying it was the right thing to do. It was a plan. That was my plan. But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's why I think we were confused because it sounded like you did to them what you did to us. What I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep.

Okay, well that, but that's, you know. It's not like a friendship is, there's always something to dig into. But I find that in my friends, we always go into deep. There's always something to dig into. Because we talk about everything. Everything. And there's just, there are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to like,

oh, this happened to me and this is how I was affected by it. And there's just, and nothing is off limits. And that's the beauty of it is just you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You are the safe space. And I didn't even see that it was a malicious space. Which, you know, getting back to this letter,

it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this... to Eva. And it was like hit or miss. I'm not even sure. I don't even know if I like you, girl. You look cool, but... Oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not?

Are we good or not? And now someone, something happened that's tragic and I think you're one of the last people I heard from. So maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was. Yeah. And I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend? Right? I mean, I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other

friend she is close with in real time, if she does have those and, you know, and this is what women do. Like, this would have happened to me in one friendship, and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, -"Hey, hey, how do you..." -"A hundred percent, yes." -"This is what happened to me." -"Am I messing up here?" -"Am I doing it? Was I wrong?" Right? And the crew would be, they would dissect it.

They would be IMO in real time, you know? And I think, you know, with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit. You know? Think a little bit because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then in their letter with, I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough in this particular situation, she

probably would check herself to say, you're right. I wasn't fully in this. I was ambivalent and I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here. Because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to her friend. I have to say that I'm also guilty because part of this also triggered me in a way because I am guilty of, again, like you said, I am not a check in every day type of person. I'm a very much, when I'm here, it's all about you, but I don't check in as often as I should with friends. And I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted, but you just have to tell me, but it's not a natural instinct.

And so with this, I understand like Eva being, like this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I can't, I'm not gonna be the same type of giving friend that you are to me, but I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there. And so that is, that would make me consider like,

oh, am I a bad friend because I don't think, I think about you, but I might not text you to be like, hey, I just want to make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay and know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the, I'm not considerate. I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be. That's a, that a pronouncement there. It's true.

It's like one of my biggest flaws because I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you but not tell you that I'm thinking about you. And that's fair. But that's also a part of friendship, right? Because, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend and the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something.

Yeah. Yes. You know, or she's busy or, you know, and that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself. Flaws and all. The inconsiderate or the per... You know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not gonna be the one to call.

Because she just doesn't do that. You know, I'm not a great, you know, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more. For the same. Like, I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this, or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And that was because of eight years also.

I mean, you know, it's hard, it was hard to reach me for eight years without a whole lot of goings on. In order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate. Yeah. And over the years, I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am, I think people just assume I don't wanna bother you.

Yeah, same. You know? Cause I'm not gonna bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff and I'm like, you didn't tell me? No, I didn't wanna bother you. So that means I often have to bend over even more... Completely.

...to check in so people know that when things are tough, do not not call me. Yeah. Because now I'm mad. Because I may not be able to do anything. Right. It's like, now I'm mad at you for that. And that happened like 50 years ago. Yeah.

Right. Right. But you were going to say something before I cut you off. No, no, no. That at you. Right, right. But you were going to say something before I cut you off. No, no, no. That was great. I appreciate that. And I also appreciate now you see she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't. It wouldn't have blasted. You know, Capricorns, we get mad, but it doesn't...

We don't stay mad. No, absolutely not. No, you don't. Can I ask you a question about the Chair of ANX? Yes. Did they ask you questions or was it more of like a venting space? Was it an inquiry? Yeah.

It was. It was all of the above. Because sometimes the person who was in the Chair of Anx just needed to vent. And in the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, okay, is this really what's going on or is there anything we can do or what predicated this? And it was just, it was a give and take. It wasn't just a venting session, but it was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that, you know, that were deep and private that I didn't, I wasn't ready to

share with the whole world. That's dope. But y'all had to make a whole construct with cigars and margaritas and whatnot. That's how it gets rolled out. What's you out to share eggs with? You just, that's it. That's how I get older. Once you're out the chair, you can't be any any no more. That's it. No more questions. No more questions. No more questions, no more problems.

That's it. Well, but see, and that's the other thing you can't do with women or with me, your sister. We don't let it go. They don't let it go. You're like a dog with a bone. Because now I'm calling you and going, OK, what happened? What happened?

Yeah, you're good. So not only do I have a sister, I have a wife. And which has helped me communicate. Right. Because I say all the time, our relationship, relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28, I'm a better communicator. Not just with women, but in general, because I, I get it. I get it.

There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't want to talk, but I have to be intentional about, she needs this. And you need it too. Well, if I need it, I will go get it. But with my friends, we never get there like that. So a friend has never disappointed you? Cause you don't have expectations of them? Friends have disappointed, but I, it doesn't injure me as deeply.

And if your next question is, do I approach them and say, Hey, you really disappointed me, I have, and I think that's why we keep our friendship. And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends where they approached you and said, hey, you just show up in this way and I'm upset? I have not. Have you ended a friendship? At the risk of sounding cocky, I have not.

Oh, because you're a good friend. I keep hitting this. Because you're a good friend. I hope that I am. You seem like you're a good friend. But it is... You have a sister. You have to be a good friend. But it's... It doesn't have to be deep friendship.

It can be just below the surface. But I think you allow people to just be comfortable with you. And I think that that is essential in a friendship and you may not challenge them in a way. But if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going? Like keep them around. You'll never be like, hey, I kind of don't like hanging around. You kind of get on my nerves. Yeah, so this is a really good question.

And I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult. You know, after a certain period, I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends and they're going to be my friends. And new people that I meet that I haven't known for a long time who are friends, the shift to the right and they don't make the shift to the right, we just don't communicate

as much. Mm-hmm. I call that the slow ghost. Yeah. She calls it a slow ghost. It doesn't... It's not enough to have a conversation with because, you know, do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy.

You just sort of... Just let it die on the vine. Let it die a natural quiet death. Yeah, and it does. Which brings me to another point that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this, is that I don't mind being ghosted. Me neither. I don't mind that.

If it didn't matter. It, if it didn't matter, it didn't matter. I'm not, but let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost. And then a year later, the guy texts me and say, Hey, I'm going to be in town. Want to go get a drink? I me and say, hey, I'm gonna be in town, wanna go get a drink. I'll be like, yeah, sure. And you all are laughing, but that is how we operate.

That is how we operate. Just look at the guys in here all smiling, trying not to get in trouble. They are trying for me not to get in trouble. No, no, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. To, no, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No. You are done. To me, people I mess with. Because there's nothing worse than like having…

Sometimes you just don't have time and making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about, and then you have to like make plans together. If the slow ghost allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything. And it's fine. Ouch. But even with your friends, I'm sorry. Your friends that you grew up with,

inevitably you guys, like you grow up, you become who you are supposed to be, right? There are no friends that you've grown up with that you have where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally or they, you know, don't necessarily, we don't vibe the same anymore. There's never been that. And that thought has never crossed your mind.

The guys who, like, say, grammar school people who were my friends, I'm still in touch with. And they've never, since grammar school? Since high school. First day of high school. Okay, okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought? No, we've fought, yeah.

But it's old. It's not an emotional fight? They don't fight. There's no, I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like, there's just, there's not a lot going on. There's no emotional fight. You're talking about, I thought you were talking about like a fight. No, and that's how, like guys to me, y'all will be like...

Like y'all will physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha, I'm the beta. That's it. And we're good for life. Let's go have a beer. Yeah. And no, if I physically fight one of my female friends, it's over. Well, you all don't physically fight. No, but in... But I get it.

I get it. But the emotional fights allow you to get closer or, you know, decide this isn't the right relationship. Yeah, I just think it goes back to the level, you know? And again, this isn't true for everyone, but even just watching my brother, it's like, your friends sort of hover around the surface. And it's real, meaningful friendships, but they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women.

Until there is a crisis, then we go deep. Yeah, yeah. It's true. People show up, go to the funeral, yeah. You know, it's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff. Go straight to death. You know, but I mean, because that's what a crisis is for these superficial friendships. It's got to be like a game that happens. It could be something going on with your kids, or it could be a divorce, or it could be, you know, a car accident.

Something super dire. Yeah. A crisis. And a crisis for women is just like, you know, a car accident. Something super dire. Yeah. A crisis. And a crisis for women is just like... Every day. Don't do this like that. You know. Oh man, I'm going to get it when I get home.

No, I'll give you an example because my husband doesn't fully understand it and he's got great friends, friends that he has since high school. I know his friends. Meaningful. But when a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you got to stay for two days because it's going to take us... So much time to catch up. ...two days to check up, right? And we're not planning anything.

We're going to sit right here and we will be here. Too many rules. I've got... No, but it's not even a rule. It's just... This is what we do and this is what it's gonna take. You gotta stay for two days. I'll have one of my good girlfriends over, spending the night, friends with Barack, love, love, all that. We sit on a couch, we trans... There's something in front of us. Tea, crackers, moved to wine, you know.

But we get up at 10 a.m. and we start the check-in. And it begins with, first of all, girl, how are you? You know, tell me about you. Now, and that's an hour. Just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in, right? Hour two is like, okay, what about work? And tell me about, because we know all about it. Remember that HR person you were gonna let go?

What happened with that girl? She's still there? Oh, man. What does she do next? And then you gotta give an example of what she did. Now, now it's lunchtime, right? On day one. Now, Baracket's come in, he's come out, and he's like, y'all still talking?

He'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how are the boys? And then he gets up and leaves. You contributed nothing. You just interrupted the time. You know. And then it's 3 o'clock, and he's like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend, we each have two kids.

That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid. Oh my gosh, I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's 48 hours. It's 48 hours. Because each kid has, you know, we know the issues and the things we've, you know, now we're at dinner on day one, right? So this is what I'm saying. And my husband is like, how... What are you all talking about all day?

And it's like, we're not eating, we're just scratching the surface. And do you know that it's so, oh my, it feels so good after they leave. It's just like, there's no better feeling than like, I just got, ugh, I reconnected with my girl, she knows everything, I've been holding, I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it. Like, I can't tell, like, there's friendship. There's, even in my groups, there's my friends who, if I want to be mad at someone, and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her.

Because she's never going to tell me I'm wrong. It's always, yeah, girl, okay, who we, she's next. You know, like, yeah. And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like,'s always, yeah, girl, okay, who we... Right, who's next? You know, like, yeah. Yeah, I needed that. And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need to know... The truth. Yes, I need to know the truth.

I need to know that I'm not it and they're gonna give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just like gonna listen and I can grab. But everybody has a function in some way and they're just... It's just, it's cathartic. It's so beautiful and that's why I'm just, I don't understand. And the flip side of my husband, right? Cause he golfs and golfing takes as long as the first session of our, you know,

it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X? He's good. He's like, what y'all talk about? Nothing. And I was like, I will have heard like, like somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X?

Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, what? You were golfing all day. And it never came up. And it never came up. You never asked about our godson. For example, you're with his father.

How is he? I don't know. I think he's good. It's like, what were you all doing? Sitting in a cart? Talking about... You know, and I'm like... Literally nothing. You have no information, and that's the difference. Because you'll be with each other all day,

looking directly away from each other at a ball, right? Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned, we are physically turned in towards one another. Feet off comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, there are tears. It's like, and that can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt when you break up or somebody's gonna get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of...

Intimacy. Intimacy. I maintain... Yes....that the chair of angst with me, Jimmy, and Victor That level of kind of... Intimacy. I maintain... Yes? That the chair of angst with me, Jimmy, and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long. Okay. I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner.

Because you're also not... It also has to be around a crisis, right? Mm-hmm. It does. It takes a crisis to get it going. This is also why women live longer than men, because we're getting a lot of that out. We're not right. And not to take it there, but y'all keep it in here.

We do. Like the crisis would require an emergency session. Oh my God. Like somebody's on Hista. Like the crisis would require an emergency session. Oh my God. Like somebody's on a train. Yeah. Flying. You know, there's movement. And you're not going to deal with the crisis on...

Yeah, I was like, we're coming. We're coming. It's a crisis. My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like this is... Took off work. That is a script.

That is something that you could write on television. It's true, because that's like, it's a plan of doing a text. Like, you know, she's not going to be good. Like, she's not going to be good. Like, she's not going to be good. Like, she's not going to be good. That is something that you could write on television. Plan and do it in text, like, you know, she's not going to be good. Like, she doesn't need this right now, you know? Right, right. You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like,

damn. Yeah. That's it. Not a crisis. Honestly, not a crisis. Sorry. Send a dog a boat juice. I didn't know you had a dog.

Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog? OK. We are bad. That is... What are my friends talking about? Guys don't know how to express... Thought you had a cat.

Guys in text don't know how to express emotions. And we use emojis like the wrong, like, ah, y'all, I lost my aunt. Dang. Fire emoji. Ghost emoji. Just spit it out. You just don't have the language for it. That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings. You're so disconnected from feelings.

I don't know what they are, but I'm 60. So I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. Yeah, so why do we have emotion OGs? They're literal. It's like hot dog. Hot dog, I'm hungry. I want lunch. Fire is like...

I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issues seriously. Okay, yeah, I forgot about Eva. No, we almost... Well, she lost the phrase. I know. Well, is it possible to set boundaries... For sure. ...in a friendship that's unbalanced?

That's something you have to be honest about. Like, hey, girl, like, I have a lot on my plate and I'm... That's hard to say. Because I was going to say like, I just want to be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about like, hey, because I have been, I feel like I give you more energy than I have. Just been like, I blamed it on work. I blamed it on I'm busy,

but I haven't said, I don't want to devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse and they can choose to pleasantly ghost me and I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me because you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend. And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are higher tier friends that

like do get your time and energy that you do consider those people. Or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends. And that's a whole different situation. But I'm confused by the loss because you had this person who cared about you, invested in you, that is kind of selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them. So yeah, it's fair to set boundaries, but I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you want to be? How do you want to show up?

And the honesty first has to be within yourself. I think both of us probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want. And even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't spend that time because we're pouring that energy out like, I understand you before I understand me. Yeah. Yeah, yes, yes. And that's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know, without opening themselves up,

because that's hard, you know? And maybe what I would say to Eva is, maybe it's time for her to just, as she's asking, do some personal reflection about what does she want in friendship and how does she want to show up. How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and is somebody

who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself. And make some friends with some guys. Right. Or, you know, be okay. Then understand that there will be times that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this and we're not. You hurt my feelings and it's over.

Right? And not take it to heart. If that's the kind of friend you are, because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you got to take stock about how you want to, how you need to show up for people. And what's, what's an example of that? How showing up, is that just, I hear, I hear communication. I get that. But understanding who your friend is and what they need. Like, you know, being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need.

And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship, sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. And with friends, you don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner, but you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then. And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend. And so you gotta,

you know, you're gonna have to give people what they need to get at some point to get what you need. It's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management? Is it, you know, is it acts of service? Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I value people's honest, emotional vulnerability. That means a lot to me. But even hearing you say this, you also have to have the recognition

that maybe you're also not compatible. Because some of it, some friendships, the most beautiful friendships are just instinctive. They're instinctual, like you don't have to try. You are the yin to the yang. You fit in like puzzle pieces. And then there are, you know, when there are missteps, you can talk about them comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're offending. And this feels like very much like Eva had to try too hard and... To be something she was not.

To be something that she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself, but the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that. And the worst friendships I've had that have, I've silently ghosted her, that have silently ghosted me, it just, it was hard to manage. Like there were just, there was always something and it felt uncomfortable. So, yeah, being honest with yourself about that is crucial. And how old is Eva again?

Yeah, I was wondering that too. 32. 32? Oh yeah, this is when people start falling off, girl. Your 30s is like when it whittles down to who's going to be there. And does she have kids? No. Mm-hmm. And it's gonna whittle even more.

You know, if she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes. And I think that's also what I would say to Eva. It's like, this is life. Yeah. You know, and like she said in her letter, friends aren't family. You know? And sometimes that's good and sometimes that's not. You know? Friends will. there are seasons for friends. And who knows, in their 40s or 50s, they may reconnect, you know.

So this is perfect because I'm thinking back to Eva, one of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to end the relationship. If you want it to be another way, based on I'm learning from you all, if I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I got to go to the person and say, hey, look, this is what I want out of a relationship. And if they can't provide it, then we got to think about it in there. Well, and that's what her friend essentially did, you know?

But her friend did it during the breakup. I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like, hey, this is what I need from a relationship. I feel like this is unbalanced. It seems like she was like, this is the last straw. Like, my relative died, you didn't show up, this has been unbalanced. And maybe it became clear to her in that moment, which I think she said. Yeah, right, she did. She said, like, all of a sudden, you ain't shit. You're right. I realized that.

And that's just, that's the way the cookie combos. I wonder if Eva also fought for it. It sounds like she's in contemplation about it. About fighting for it? Or letting it go. It sounds, it feels like she's let it go. It feels like she didn't fight for it. But I don't think we have that.

Don't want to. Do you guys do follow up? You know, do you think? We could. You know, that's. I need to know. Well, let's, let's figure out a couple, three things that we can tell Eva and then maybe we could figure out a follow-up with her.

Well, one of the things is, I think you mentioned it, is like, if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, hey guys, how do I not? Yeah. Take it to your counsel. Take it to your counsel. What are the ways that I don't show up? Have I been a bad friend? And like use that to become a better friend. I completely agree with that.

And also, you know, be easy on yourself. You're 32. This is how it goes. You know, people come, people go. You know, even hurts can be healed because, you know, who knows where you'll be when you're 50. You know, life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows. And in the meantime, what I would tell her is use this as an opportunity since you're bothered by it to figure out how you can grow.

And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no expectation of a response. If you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology, say where you're coming from and let that person know, hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that I really valued you. I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way. The door is still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again, but feel free not to respond. I just wanted to get this up. Like if you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response. I like that. I like that too. But you know what I like even more

is when Issa said, just get a guy friend. BOTH LAUGH Honestly, you want a low maintenance relationship. You want a low maintenance relationship. Get a guy friend. Low maintenance. And don't worry, you don't even have to know if he has a dog. BOTH LAUGH

Ego, we really care about you. No, for real. You'll be good, girl. You'll be all right. This is how, as you said, he's the cookie crumbles. Life is like this. But this has been fun. Yeah, this is so fun. What's the next letter?

Thank you so, oh. Yeah, I can't give you that. Yeah, come on. Let's go. Got that one down. Thank you so much. Thank you guys. Music