WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Mark Lanegan from 2017

Episode Date: February 23, 2022

From 2017, Marc talks with Mark Lanegan, the former frontman of Screaming Trees, about the '90s grunge scene and his collaborations with various artists. Mark died on February 22, 2022 at age 57. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

the copenhagen thing so you grew up with it so you're one of those guys could just take a pinch right in there well eventually i mean the first time i did it i got really sick well that's but that's the thing that gets you it's funny's funny with Copenhagen and heroin. Never a great experience first time out, but for some reason the guys that commit, they'll ride that out. Yeah. Well, I should have gotten sick the first time I did heroin, but that didn't happen. So I did it many, many more times before I started working against me. Well, so that worked out too well the first time. Indeed.

But you're still alive. Somehow, against all odds. But I mean, in order to dip as a kid, you've got to live a certain life. I mean, where did that start? Where did you grow up? I grew up in a small town in central Washington, which is like mainly farming, ranching. Near Spokane or no? Right between Spokane and Seattle, right in the exact center of the state.

So like Washington, like, you know, it always strikes me as beautiful, but there's a sort of creepiness at the core somewhere. There's a sort of creepiness at the core somewhere. Well, I once read that most serial killings happen in Washington and Florida in the corners of the country. Yeah, people hit the edge, literally. And they're like, I guess I got to go back in and do some bad work. I've gone as far as I can go geographically within the confines of this country. Now I got to go make my mark. Yeah. I mean, Ted Bundy did damage in both states. He actually killed somebody in my hometown. Really? I remember when I was a little kid at Pizza Hut. Yeah. There was a flyer on the wall for a missing girl.

She turned out to be one of his victims. Oh, you remember that from, that was one of those things. Yeah. That first time you see something like that as a kid, it kind of burns its way in there. Yeah, I mean, apparently something else burned its way into Ted Bundy himself. Yeah, that's for sure. Because I was a kid. Did you grow up on a farm? No, but I grew up in the country.

Yeah? Yeah. And what'd you do out there? I wished that I was somewhere else. The whole time? Pretty much, yeah. Big family? No, small.

Just me and my mom and dad and my sister. That was it? Was he a farmer? No. They were school teachers. Oh, that's noble. I guess. Is the memories too polluted by other things?

Yeah, man. It's too raw. Yeah? Bad times. That's what started you rolling, I guess. I guess so, yeah. I was the black sheep of the small family. When did you start doing music?

I used to collect comic books as a kid, and there was a comic book store in my town. Yeah. Thank God for those, right? Yeah, actually, that saved me because I saw a picture of Iggy Pop on the front of a magazine that he was giving away. Yeah. Because he couldn't sell it. No one wanted it.

I think it was one of those where he cut off half the cover. Oh, yeah. Right. They used to do in the 70s. Oh, it was one of those. That means that they didn't sell them. They were going to send them back. I guess so, yeah.

I think it's what they... They'd get credit. How did that work they'd cut off the title of the magazine and send those back for or something for i don't know whatever so it was half a cover of iggy yeah and uh i thought what you know what's this who's that guy and i asked the kind of uh we're hippie that ran the shop. Thank God for those guys. Yeah, naturally. Yeah. You know, he was this, and he said,

oh, you know, I have some 45s, and played me, I want to say it was tight pants or something. Uh-huh. And that's what got me hooked. Within like a couple of days, I'd traded in all my comic books for credit on records. So I listened to the original Sex Pistols singles. I had those and The Damned, Stranglers.

From that same shop? Yeah, from that same shop. Man. And then as I got a little older, I started to take the greyhound bus to seattle and walk around to different record stores and but i literally didn't know anybody in in ellensburg to listen to that same kind of music for years so we're like the same age so that was a give or take a year so that was like that time where you really those were those were the only places you could get it you needed that one record store or you needed this weird community of friends that would send you shit from other

places or else you were just locked in mainstream fucking townie music which isn't bad you know there's a lot of good rock and roll around well that you know in Ellensburg, literally nobody even knew who Jimi Hendrix was that I knew. Really? Yeah, it was all, the local radio was, I want to say, country music. Uh-huh. But, you know, 70s style, so that wasn't terrible. Right. But yeah, the rock thing was really, it was a wasteland.

And we're talking like, what, early 70s mid 70s mid to late 70s and that was uh you're like uh there's a different world out there where's that world yeah so um you know i just listened to that stuff in solitude for several years and then eventually met some guys who were younger than me that in ellensburg yeah that were into that same kind of music and they ended up being the guys i was in my first band with which band screaming trees so those guys were all from your hometown they were yeah so you knew them growing up i i actually knew who they were the connor brothers yeah because it's such a small town i'm one of my earliest memories when i still lived uh in the, walking to, I want to say like first grade or something.

Yeah, yeah. Seeing this kid sitting in a waiting pool in this front yard. Yeah. And he smiled at me, and that was Van Conner. Yeah. I knew who he was my entire life, but didn't really know him until I was 18. That's kind of weird about like smaller cities or smaller towns it's like there is just a little bit of distance but you've seen him around

you know yeah and these guys were really uh i mean physically imposing really big guys really big guys uh you know outside the norm. Were they twins? No. Do people ask that a lot? Yeah, they used to. I just remember that first Screaming Tree. Well, not the first one. That was a surprising thing because, like, you know, the one I heard was the one with the hits on it, the one that became big, and I fucking love that record.

But, you know, you guys were at it for a while. Yeah, I mean, we made, I want to say, four records in the 80s. Yeah. You know, but we were making them, like, every eight months. So, all right, so you meet those guys in your hometown, and what'd you play? Did you play, or were you just singing? I was a terrible drummer. I just had, like, half of a drum kit that some guy had traded me for some weed.

But you were drumming. Well, they wanted me to, but I was arguably a worse drummer than I was a singer, and I was a pretty bad singer for years. Really? Yeah, it took me a while to learn how to do it what were you like initially who were you modeling yourself after well initially i was singing songs that the guitar player for the trees wrote and he wrote them uh you know to suit his voice uh-huh and he had a much higher voice than me so i was shredding you i was either like singing really high or singing like two octaves lower

which was easier but also still like completely right you know not correct not your sweet spot not my sweet spot yeah yeah we weren't anywhere close to being savvy enough to like change keys on anything so right for years literally i just you know tried to find a way to sing stuff no one no one could just write down like well, well, these are these three. Let's just drop them down or move them up or throw a capo on. It's like, we're stuck in these. Dude, we didn't even know how to change the strings on a guitar, really. Is that true?

Well, yeah. Yeah. How old were you guys? I was 20 when we first started, and a couple of the guys were 15. And then the older Connor brother was, I want to say, 22. Yeah, yeah. So where did you play? Like, whose garage?

Well, we actually rehearsed in the back of a video store that the Connor family owned. Oh, yeah? There was a big room back there. I worked for them in that shop for a video store that the connor family owned oh yeah there was a big room back there i worked for them in that shop for a while you were renting videos selling videos yeah renting them out they have an x section they did yeah yeah that's always helpful it was you know most popular section sure i would think up there in the middle of washington yeah it wasn't uh i know i think it was probably the only place you could get oh really videos in our own so you

knew a little bit about the the the adults in the community yeah yeah their tastes as your secret keeper right yeah so you're in the back of the store, you and the fellas, hammering it out. Yeah. You know, we actually started recording like a month after we first rehearsed because there happened to be a guy who lived in our hometown that was recording bands. Had a four-track or an eight track? It was an eight track. Yeah. And we ended up making our first four records

on that eight track, like all in maybe three years time. And who released them? Well, the first one was released by the guy who recorded it. Sure. And then we started making records for SST here in yeah california are they

are they even still around well i think you know he's still selling records but uh out of a warehouse in right arizona i think because they were that was a pretty important label in its day yeah i mean you know for us it was must have been like holy shit yeah it was yeah it was still like the most exciting thing that's happened to me in 30 years that getting that first sst deal was getting phone call from from greg getting at sst which i didn't even believe it was him yeah who were they and you knew all the bands on there i imagine yeah we were big black flag fans and oh yeah we were husker do fans minute men minute man sonic youth they were all on sst they're all on sst we were on there at the same time as sonic youth and dinosaur well it's completely bizarre yeah from where we were

from to you know making records for them well what was that first trip down there like well we were playing record stores all the way down to california and that was it and because there was a guy who worked at sst who was friends with the guy who produced our first record um he came out as a courtesy to see us play yeah and that's really how we got hooked up with those guys he got excited when he saw us play live to like five people in a record store in santa monica man do you bet you don't miss those gigs i still play those gigs just not with the band by by myself. More than five. I've played to nobody. If there was a negative audience, I could have played to them. Well, that's an interesting thing about you.

I guess interesting is a diplomatic word probably from your perspective. But, I mean, you know, you're one of the great rock and roll singers. And you've done, like, you have an amazing catalog of work. Yet, how does that happen, Mark? Why are you playing to nobody in a record store? I don't know how that happens, but it does occasionally. Fucking music, right? Yeah.

I've played at weddings. I've played at a funeral. I've played everything. As a, to honor somebody or as a paid gig? To honor somebody, but both times, wedding and funeral. Okay, but it wasn't like, man, things are bad, I gotta get a wedding gig. No, but if somebody offered me one, I would definitely take it. Would you?

Depending on, you know, how low my bank account was at that point. Well, Lightning Addict did that, They did that beautiful box set, right? Yeah, they did an anthology. Sub Pop did a box set a couple years ago of all my early records. Yeah. And do they sell all right? Well, when Sub Pop released the box set,

I finally recouped with them after 17 years. So I guess it sold something. So you're even with Sub Pop? I'm even with them now, yeah. So what was going on? So you're like, you signed an SST in your 20, 21? Who put out the big record that you guys did? Epic.

So what was happening when you got there? What year was that? We actually signed in 1989 to Epic, which was sort of predated everybody else doing really yeah in fact i remember um the they were putting us on metal compilations and there really wasn't a you know sort of grunge genre yeah it's weird because it like in retrospect i don't know if it grunge genre. Yeah, it's weird because in retrospect, I don't know if it was a genre.

Was it really? No. Because you guys were rock bands. I mean, Pearl Jam is a rock band. Nirvana is a rock band with a few pop chords. Yeah, I mean, like most things, it was a media construct. But was there a community? Well, it was a media construct. But was there a community? Well, it was a small city, so you knew everybody.

Musically, it seemed to us that everybody sort of had their own thing going. So when you guys are doing that stuff, when that scene is happening, I mean, what's your relationship with uh because i know you worked a bit with some of nirvana right i did yeah that's how i actually started making soul records was um kurt and i were friends and we decided to uh try and make an ep of lead belly covers lead belly being someone that we both liked a lot. We were sitting around listening to them one day and thought, hey, we should do a record of this stuff.

Why not? And Sub Pop agreed to put it out. Yeah. And we booked some time in the studio. And about an hour into the first day in the studio, we kind of looked at each other and thought, maybe this was like a half-baked idea, you know? So we finished like one or two songs

and then just decided to shelve it. Which ones? Which songs? Because they covered that one, right? That's sort of an off-the-beaten-track one. Which one did they do? In the Pines? Yeah, which is also the song that we did together which ended up being on my first solo record um that one and one other one

i can't remember what it was called but that was the one that you know we were like hey this one's good and uh after we told sub pop we weren't going to finish making this thing, they said to me, why don't you make a solo record? And that was the catalyst for me learning how to... How to do it? How to play guitar. I remember that.

Oh yeah, is that where you learned? Yeah? Yeah, it was because of that. See, like you're one of those guys, and I've talked to people before, where musicians, like you can be a fan of like a few of their records, but then when you sit down with them, you're like, oh got 90 out i missed that i'd miss that one wreck like 20

records yeah man i have way too many records so no but you keep working well no choice if you had a choice would you stop uh if i won the lotto I might just sit on a beach somewhere. Ah, the lotto. Yeah, the big dream. Yeah, the lotto hope. So when you were in Seattle, when did the drugs start then? Well, I was always partial to drugs when I lived in eastern Washington. Yeah, what were you getting in eastern Washington? Everything you get. Anywhere?

Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. uh everything you get anywhere yeah yeah yeah but you were sort of there like that that tar shit preceded the meth shit right yeah and uh you know for me both both worked out yeah it's gotta be you gotta you gotta be up and you gotta be down yeah simultaneously part of my story yeah did you find because i was trying to kind of tap into like as i listen to gargoyle and you know those i like i tend to like that like i like those last two cuts the uh first day of winter and old swan you know i got on that on the new record and and i like uh there's always been the thing

about your voice but not just about your voice it doesn't matter it doesn't seem to matter who you're playing with there's this what did i write down me and my poetic yeah impulse i said uh the tone of sound you can feel the pacific northwest the haunting comfort of the weight of the gloomy sky and i said he's an existential viking there you go that's your there's your blurb do you need a blurb for gargoyle i just got it thanks man but you know i think something there there is something to that don't you ever i mean there there's a place you go emotionally with the way you sing and also with the chords you use. And even over the years, whatever song it is, it creates this space, man. I mean, I don't know how to ask an artist about that, but do you feel that?

Do you feel where that came from? Do you think that some of that had to do with Washington or dope or what? I don't know. or dope or what? I don't know. I mean, speaking of box sets, one of the first things that I actually heard that sort of informed where I would go with my own records, I was working in a warehouse

for a chain of record stores in Seattle, and I had made three records with the Trees already. Yeah. But again, I wasn't writing songs or doing any of that stuff and i saw this nick drake box set called fruit tree and on the cover it's just a picture him like a long overcoat smoking cigarette like walking on a beach or next to a lake or something yeah black and white photo and i got fruit tree huh you know what is this and i asked the guy who worked there and he he goes, oh, man, this stuff is great.

And he made me a cassette of Nick Drake, Tim Buckley, and Leonard Cohen, all three of who I'd never heard before. How old were you? 23, 24. Oh, that was it. The portal. Yeah, and so that really spoke to me in a way that very few things had before that type of music. And I want to say maybe within six months, I had written the songs for my first solo record and made that record.

So it was really sort of my version of that stuff. Sure. You were under the influence and not in your own voice yet necessarily. Right. Yeah. And, you know, could barely play three chords on the guitar to write these songs. So that was it. That was it.

And I mean, everything I've done since then sort of, I mean, it's basically the same, but, you know, with a little bit more artistry, I guess. So, you know, I've been really lucky to play with guys who are actually really proficient and great artists. Well, you are. You're a great singer. Thanks. But like Nick Drake,

I was just talking to another dude about that today. I think I just picked up his third album. That song, somebody asked me about which songs make me cry consistently. And that song, Time Has Told Me. That's beautiful, yeah. Oh, my God. It didn't end well for that guy.

No, it didn't. But I guess it doesn't really end well for everybody. No, no, no. The end is not good. You just hope it's fast. And I guess if you decide on it, if you do it correctly, it might be pretty quick. Do you find that,

you know, I guess when you listen to Nick Drake, there's that element where you can hear the weight of, I don't know if it's sad. I guess it's sadness. There's definitely a space that's created, and you do it too that it feels like it could be sadness but it isn't it's almost like embracing a certain darkness i mean do you do you ever feel like what you're doing is like literally saving your life well

yeah you know for a long time i wouldn't have copped to that but i think that it's true you know um right it's given me an outlet for whatever these you know ideas and thoughts and give me a place to sort of create this uh alternate reality that's in the song or yeah cushions it right right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a big, dark cushion. That's the other blurb. Big, dark cushion.

I'm trying to help you out. It's working. Did you find that, did you find, you know, and I don't talk about this much, but I'm always curious about it because I don't talk to too many people that have had a long experience with dope but do you find that like because i've known a couple of dudes that i don't think they could have had the perception that they had with without it

you know that's so hard to say really is it well i mean because i was never a dope guy i did a few times it didn't take i'm probably lucky yeah i'd say so yeah um you know it's that's like well you've done it both you've written songs on and off i have and i've done records that i thought were really good on and i've done records i thought were really good off and i've done records that couldn't come out because they were so bad when i was on you know yeah ultimately it's uh it's a crapshoot it's a gamble well yeah it's a gamble and and you know my experience with that stuff is ultimately not a positive one because of the, you know, damages. You got pretty strung out? Done to my existence.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, really, to be honest about drugs, the only drugs I ever did that sort of enhanced my abilities, I thought, wasn't really dope. But weed at one time made me do stuff that I never would have done otherwise. I quit smoking weed for about five years. And then around the time I made my second solo record, Whiskey, I decided to smoke weed. Yeah. And it made me do some stuff that I had never thought about doing.

And, of course, it turned on me quickly, like all drugs. Well, yeah, because if you've got the bug, you're just going to do it all day long. Well, anything I ever did, that's all I ever did. Yeah. After the first time it wore off, I was doing it again. Sure. It's your job. Yeah. But, and then there was a brief period of time when,

and I shouldn't even say this because I don't in any way advocate it. Right. Because ultimately it was really damaging as well. But there was a period of time when I thought like, you know, this meth thing is really working for me artistically. I'm really getting a lot done.

A lot done. lot done but those are really the only two you know well i didn't get like i definitely was you know uh absorbed with weed in a big way but like meth i've done both meth and dope and like meth like i i get it you know there's there's a at least a feeling of clarity. Yeah, definitely. Ultra clarity. And, you know, there is an excitement to it, certainly. But it just really comes down to, I guess, whether you want to risk your teeth. And your mental faculties. Right.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's a dirty drug. It's dirty. Yeah, it's like non-organic. Non-organic indeed. As chemical as they come. Yeah, it's like non-organic. Non-organic indeed. As chemical as they come. Yeah, yeah. So, okay, so you do the solo records.

Now, how did the relationship with Josh start? Josh Homme. He lived in Seattle in early, well, maybe like 94. He was living in Seattle and 95. Yeah. Going to college, he had, he had

quit Caius and was trying to, fucking Caius, what a band, dude. Great band. Weren't they? Yeah, fantastic. Wow.

And, he was trying to get, get on the straight and narrow? Yeah, he was trying to get on the straight and narrow. His brother lived in Seattle and he was enrolled

in the University of Washington. i had never met him but i was a fan of caius and the bass player in the screamy trees knew josh from something they had done together yeah and we were looking to get a second guitar player and he ended up saying yes he would do it and so he was actually already in the band by the time i met him in your band yeah my dad rehearsed with him and everything and then i came one day and he was there so um he seems that makes sense yeah i mean it was obvious right away that he had like way more on the ball than any of us it was just sort of playing these yeah rhythm guitar parts but uh these yeah rhythm guitar parts but but we got along really well and eventually we were both living down here he asked me to sing on the first Queens record but I was in the long-term rehab at that point I couldn't get out like six months

actually went almost a year for the dope yeah everything everything yeah yeah and you couldn't get out to sing i couldn't get out to sing um and by the time he made the second record i did quite a bit of singing on that one right and then the next couple i've actually been on all of them except for the first one so when when you were in a year rehab, did that stick? It did, yeah, for a few years. So no. Well, it didn't stick forever. Yeah, yeah.

But what does? I know. Are you sober now or no? I am, yeah. Yeah? Like working it or just? I'm working it, yeah. Oh, good, man.

That's good. That's pretty much the only thing that. You feel better? Of course, yeah. Yeah. So's good. That's pretty much the only thing that... You feel better? Of course, yeah. Yeah. A little more freedom, huh? And no more, the job is over. Lots more freedom.

So, like, it seems to me like, you know, when I look at the stuff you did, that, you know, you definitely get a tremendous amount of respect from the community in a lot of different ways, in a way that not a lot of singers do or rock performers do. Like, you know, it seems like the alt-x, you know, the hipster kids love you, the fucking hardcore, you know, alt-rockers love you, and then the hard rock dudes fucking love you.

Like, you have this ticket or this, like, ability to, because your instrument is so solid that you can work with all these different people that's kind of an amazing thing do you do you recognize that i don't know if i recognize the love you just described but but i recognize the opportunity that i've had you know to work with all kinds of different people and guns and roses guys That I've had, you know, to work with all kinds of different people. Guns N' Roses guys. Well, Duff's a good friend of mine.

Yeah? He's a Seattle guy, too. He is, huh? Yeah. And that, like, but that's a whole other world. I mean, there's differences in these worlds. Like, there's differences in the world, in my mind, maybe not in yours or maybe not in, but there's a difference in the Guns N' Roses circle and the Dinosaur Jr. circle dinosaur junior circle well yeah they seem to be

different orbits like you know rock you know at los angeles hollywood rock and roll is specific i mean and i think i i think that you know josh is sort of uh in between those sometimes but he's definitely a hard rock guy but then when you think about jay jay's a hard rock as hell but it's definitely a hard rock guy. But then when you think about Jay, Jay's a hard rock as hell, but it's like his own weird thing. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I mean, there definitely are differences in the specific, you know...

Communities? Communities, I guess, but that doesn't mean that people don't... Hang out? Interact with people. Well, see, that's weird because as a guy who likes music communities i guess but that doesn't mean that people don't uh you know hang out interact with people well that's what see that's weird because as a guy who likes music and is somewhat of a fan and not you know you have a lot of different people you get this weird assumption that you guys are like comic book people like you're you're like superheroes of some kind and they're these

different factions that you know but behind the scenes i've learned after talking to people it's like you know you pass in the hallway or I've learned after talking to people, it's like, you know, you pass in the hallway or whatever the hallway is or whatever that represents and like, what are you working on? I got a thing going. It's like, you know, it's not, you know, there's a difference between the front room and the back room, you know? Well, I think, you know, a lot of that kind of perception is probably

because of the sort of mainstream success of one band compared to the sort of sustained different kind of success of a different kind of band. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking the difference between Guns N' Roses and Dinosaur Jr. now. Right. At the end of the day, it's music, and you guys come in contact with people from all

different kinds of bands. But you did a couple records with Isabelle from Belle and Sebastian? I did. I made three records with her. Now, was that, were you guys in a relationship? No. How did that, how does that happen? That's one of those things where it's like, you're a singer, and, you know, it's like it makes sense, but it seems two different worlds, doesn't it?

Or not to you well i mean i was a fan of bill and sebastian but it it was definitely you know not in my direct uh realm yeah not the kind of uh you weren't hanging out not hanging out right um she got in contact with me via a record company or management or something wanted wanted me to sing on one song, which I did. And then we ended up meeting in person and became friends and ended up making all these records together. Pretty records. Thank you.

You make pretty records with her. Well, I agree. Thanks. And which one of the record you did, there was a lot of collaboration. Like, I don't know the record, but I did some reading about it was it bubble gum that record was that yeah it was your record yeah and like there was a shit ton of people on there yeah i made that while i was playing with the queens so all those guys were on it and um was pj harvey on it she sang a couple songs yeah are you pals with her we we know each other yeah i wouldn't say we're pals but i'm a huge fan of what she does i mean she's the greatest she's something

right yeah and what what happened so how did you manage to um do you are you married uh i've been married a couple times i'm in the process of ending my second marriage right now. Yeah, I've been through a couple. You got kids? No. Me neither. We did it. Yeah, we won, man. Don't ever look at it differently.

Oh, wait. Before we get to the new record the afghan wigs they were banned i remember like you know enjoying a couple of their records i know they just they did a new one recently and i know that you know greg's out you know talking to people and i haven't talked to him because i'm nervous i get nervous about a musician But you guys have known each other a long time, and you work together? Can I listen to a little bit of one of the records you did with him? Yeah, I mean, we played on a bunch of records together.

We're good friends. How did you guys come together? Because you record under another band name, right? Well, we recorded with his band, Twilight Singers. Sang with those guys, played on a few of their records. He's played on a bunch of my records. We made a record together called The Gutter Twins. Right, that one.

Yeah, and we... Were you just like-minded? You just get along? Yeah, we're just, you know, real good friends. Yeah? Is that from Seattle days? We knew each other in Seattle, but we didn't really hang out until we both lived down here like in the late 90s

again man tough racket music like it's like cause when I'm going over your stuff and I'm planning

to talk to you like there's just like so many different side projects so many different bands you've sung on fucking everything. Have you met most of your heroes?

I've met quite a few of them, yeah. Like who else? Well, one of my first heroes was a guy named Greg Sage. He was in a band from Portland, Oregon called The Wipers. Yeah. And I want to say it was the second show I ever did was opening for him. Became friends. He was also an influence on my first solo record along with that other stuff I mentioned.

Because he had made a record, a solo record that was heavily acoustic. I actually heard that before I heard Nick Drake and that stuff. I spent a lot of time with him back in the 80s. Jeffrey again. rollins rollins sure did shows with him and you know know him he's he's great he's a real character man yeah he's one of the greatest i just remember before I actually knew Henry. Yeah. Playing a show with him at the old I-Beam in San Francisco. We played. Of course, the Conner brothers got in a fist fight on stage.

With each other? With each other, yeah. Oh, my God. That was the only person they would fight with was each other. Yeah. And then I was off the side of the stage, Rollins Band getting ready to go up, and Henry was in full view of the audience and everything,

doing push-ups or four-count burpees, like working out on the side of the stage. I was like, man, this guy is – He means business. He is something else. Of course he is. Yeah. Is he doing all right? Have you talked to him lately?

I saw him, I want to say and god maybe it was 2010 oh it's been a while yeah um but we have you know a lot of people in common yeah he's a very he's an earnest motherfucker man he is yeah great great taste in music oh he knows everything yeah he like i talked to him once and he gave me all that like i did a series of shows with him spoken word things and he brought me a like a hard drive said here's some stuff and i'm like holy where the even where'd this come from you know like just like studio versions of things you're like what what is this yeah man he's he's something else so on gargoyle it's like you've

done this is like what your 10th record 10th record with my name on it now one thing i noticed and i noticed this because you know maybe i'm wrong but like i recently um got sent the promo uh uh uh version it's it's not it hasn't come out yet of Ray Davies' new record from the Kings. And, you know, I don't know if it's because I'm 53 and that, you know, like I just listened to Amy Mann's new record and she's around our age, you know. What, are you a little younger than me? What are you, 52?

I'm 52, yeah. That, like, you know, people, like it's, I guess the point I'm making, it seems that, you know, your voice and your songs sound like they're deeper and have more wisdom and that, you know, your own, you know, kind of vulnerability and fragility of just being where we are in life. You can feel that alongside of... This is a good thing. Don't misunderstand it.

That you can feel that alongside of what you've always been doing and it adds another dimension to it. Are you aware of that? Do you feel like you're writing differently now? Well, I definitely feel like I'm better at it now because it's easier. I don't know if I'm just kidding myself or what.

Right. But as far as like uh what the end result is i i don't i don't really think about it no i just sort of like go on instinct and yeah and i know that because i'm less uh critical of what i do yeah now i feel like it's getting better that's it that's what she said too it's like i i give less of a shit about what people think of me basically was the i'm paraphrasing but like once you get like once that it's what a fucking relief that is if there's any gift to you know living continuing to live to live when you see people and our peers pass at young ages, is that eventually you stop giving a fuck about certain things. Indeed.

That's a fucking gift. I got to make sure I remember that. Because there were a lot of things when i was younger that seemed like an awfully big deal that really it's just sort of like what the fuck oh man everything was a big deal to me when i was younger and now nothing is so but you can't there's no way to learn that before it happens no who's going to tell you that it's like hey you know what you shouldn't give a shit so when you're, fuck you. Yeah. This is life or death here, man. Fuck you. Right?

What do you know, old man? Who played on this record? Alan Johannes plays on most of it, and he's the guy I've made records with since Bubblegum produces them. But a lot of the music for this one was recorded and written by a guy named Rob Marshall, a British guy. How did you find him? He actually found me. Yeah? Asked me to do something for this project that he was doing, and I recorded some vocals.

I mean, I heard it first, and I was like, yeah, this is cool, and I mean I heard it first and I was like yeah this is cool and I can do something with this and I wrote some words and recorded some vocals for his thing yeah and uh then he sent me an email saying I really like what you did I'd like to write something for you someday and I was like okay well I filed that away and then I was sort of running into a wall trying to finish this new record and I was not really digging what I was doing. And I thought, hey, maybe that... You're going to call in a favor.

Yeah, maybe that guy's got something for me. And so he ended up sending me a whole bunch of stuff, which was, again, just as good as the stuff I had done for him. And it was really easy to write, too. Oh, cool. Ended up half the record was his stuff. Well, I appreciate the fact

that it's a reasonable amount of songs. Instead of? 90. You know, like for some reason people who do CDs are like, we're going to put 18 songs on there.

It's like, dude, you know, the records were good for a reason. You know, cut, you know, make some choices. Yeah, but I thought about just doing eight songs this time. Yeah. But, yeah, 10 seems some choices. Yeah, but I thought about just doing eight songs this time. Yeah.

But, yeah, ten seems to be. Yeah, Amy did like ten on hers, too. I was like, thanks. Because it feels like, you know, you made some decisions. You know what I mean? Well, in my case, it's just using exactly what I have. Heck, that's all I got. That's all I got.

That's all I got for this one. Thank God it's enough. So are you going to go out and tour, or what are you going to do? Yeah, I'm going to tour in May, June, July in Europe, and then maybe some state stuff in August, and then back to Europe for a couple months. How are you holding up in Europe? How's the crowds? Well, it's the only place I have a crowd is europe so i've managed nothing

wrong with that it's worked for me for several years so yeah i'm lucky but there i don't know what it is or why that is but you know that it seems like you can hold on to the community longer you know with and you know being you know somebody who's specific and has specific fans that seems like you can continue to build there here like i don't know what's going on here yeah i don't either um but i've i've managed to you know i tour every year in europe and pay my bills from that so you're all right yeah blessed good still alive well it's good talking to you, Mark. Nice talking to you.