WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Remembering Lynn Shelton

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

Marc pays tribute to his creative collaborator and romantic partner Lynn Shelton, who passed away at age 54 on May 16, 2020. This episode includes her August 2015 interview on WTF. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Okay, hey, it's Mark, and I haven't been too available lately, but I imagine most of you that Lynn Shelton died at about 12.45 a.m. on Saturday morning. She was my partner. She was my girlfriend. She was my friend. was my girlfriend she was my friend and I loved her I loved her a lot

and she loved me and I knew that and I don't know that I'd ever felt what I felt with her before I do know actually I'd ever felt what I felt with her before. I do know. Actually, I did not. I have not.

And I was getting used to love in the way of being able to accept it and show it properly in an intimate relationship. I was so comfortable with this person, with Lynn Shelton. And I'm not really that comfortable emotionally or otherwise, but I was. I was able to exist in a state of self-acceptance because of her love for me. And I made her laugh all the time. And she made me laugh and we were happy. We laughed a lot. We played Crazy Eights. We cooked food together. We traveled. We wrote. I'll talk more about things we did together, but I just wanted you guys to know because the last time I talked to you, I thought she had strep throat.

She thought she had strep throat. And we went immediately. She went immediately and got a COVID-19 test and it was negative. And she met with her doctor online and we treated it as strep throat. And on Thursday, I said, we've got to go in. I don't know why this fever isn't going down. And she made an appointment to go in the next day. So we were going to go to the doctor for blood tests on Friday.

And then in the middle of the night, I heard her collapse in the hallway on her way to the bathroom. And I got up and she was on the floor and she couldn't move. She was conscious but delirious a bit. I called 911. They came and they got her and that was the last time I saw her alive was on the floor being taken away. Then over the course of the day, there was never any good news. She got there. She was anemic.

She had low blood pressure. She had internal bleeding. And I don't want to go into details about that day, but they tried very hard at two hospitals that were amazing and

they eventually had to let her go. They tried everything they could. They took her off life support and she passed away. I called the ambulance at around five in the morning on Friday and by 1245 AM Saturday, she was gone. And I went over there. They let me into the hospital after she died to spend some time with her, and I did that.

I told her I loved her. I touched her forehead, and I left. And now this process is happening. She was an amazing woman. She was an inspiration to so many people. So many people loved her. She was a very determined artist

who just needed to put her expression out into the world in any way. Tremendous love for people, for her friends, for her son Milo. My relationship with her is, I can't even explain it. But I got to tell you, no one's got anything bad to say about Lynn Shelton that's for fucking sure she was amazing her movies were amazing they are amazing I've worked with her everyone who's worked with her loved her and everybody's

reaching out to me now and it's really helping and I'm so glad that Lynn was so well loved because you know people are like well let's make sure that that guy's okay. How's the cranky guy doing? So this is what we do here at WTF, the podcast.

And at WTF, the podcast, when somebody who has been on the show passes away, we repost the episode. We take it out from behind the paywall and repost it, not just out of respect or in memorial, but as a portrait of a person, a reminder, a reconnection with an artist, a reminder of who they were when they were vital and alive and connected and expressing themselves and talking about who they were and how they express themselves. Just that audio portrait of that time. And I talked to Lynn. This is the first time I met her was in 2015, August. August 10th is when it aired, 2015. I didn't know her, and she had been offered to be on the show before, but I was nervous because I knew she had some affiliation with my ex-wife,

and I did not know if she was friends with my ex-wife or what that would mean. I didn't know anything, but I needed to talk to her. I saw some of her movies. I wanted to talk to her. I was curious about her. So okay let's try it let's try it I'm going to talk to this Lynn Shelton I want to meet this Lynn Shelton but I didn't know what to expect you know and at the time she was married and I was with somebody but at this point when I had this conversation, it's undeniable that we connected. I mean, my connection with her

is almost seamless. There was, you know, I have no self-consciousness really when I'm with her. I'm totally comfortable even in my infantile ridiculousness. The whole arc of me, infantile ridiculousness

to cranky shittiness. You know, I was just always better. I was definitely a better person when I was engaged with her. As a comic, as a guitar player, as a human, as a lover, as everything. I was better in Lynn Shelton's gaze. As an actor. And she was so great. But this is, you know, you can witness.

You can bear witness to this. This is me meeting Lynn Shelton. Really for the first time. In 2015. August. Enjoy it. You should enjoy it. You know, I shoot movies in seven and a half, ten, twelve days. I like your movies.

Do you? I do. I was hoping you might. No, I do. And I watched one this morning. Which one? Touchy Feely. Ah.

I've seen like three, I think. Uh-huh. Three. I didn't see the big shot movie with big shots in it. Like now Lynn Shelton's a big shot. Hey. Yeah. It was just, you know who was most excited

and jealous about me doing a rom-com with with karen knightley and paulie moretz joe swanberg are you kidding me i would love to do that i would you're gonna have so much fun i was like i was where am i selling out man like what are you selling out whatever you know i know i was really was like my but is it it's a question you asked though well sure of course i did it well i was wondering what it was the first movie i've ever directed that i didn't write. I was really, it was like my, my. It's a question you asked though. You said it. Well, sure. Of course I did. Well, I was wondering what, it was the first movie I've ever directed that I didn't write. And I was like, is it going to feel like one of my movies? You know, like, what am I doing? It's sort of new territory.

It's much bigger budget than I've worked with. Although, cause I've done so much TV, I was comfortable with all the trailers and stuff, but still, you know, it's like a different thing for my baby, one of my babies. And, um, he actually made me feel great. You know, he's like, you can go back to doing your little shitty art things, whatever. Like improv movies or whatever. But yeah, this is going to be great. You said the guy who has not done that yet.

But who I think is dying to, you know, love to. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. He wants to try everything. He's a great guy. He is. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He wants to try everything.

He's a great guy. He is. We were in Chicago, and we were taping my special at the Vic, and Bobcat was directing it, Goldthwait. And we just called Joe. How many Bobcats are there, by the way? I know. I don't know. You're from Seattle. You've been around.

There might be a couple Bobcats. Yeah, for sure. Someone who I don't know, who you only know as Bobcat. All right. Someone who I don't know, who you only know as Bobcat. All right. But no, we called Joe and we were like, we want to do some backstage shit, just some stuff. Are you around?

He's like, yeah, yeah, I'll come down. So he was shooting on both. He was just wandering around with me being Joe Swanberg. Awesome. But okay, how do you differentiate then between selling out and just doing television? There's all the television you do on the level of artistic and creative expression that you need for yourself. Oh, God, no. No, the TV directing was always meant to be a way to pay the rent and the bills while I – so give me the freedom that I can continue to make independent stuff.

Here's the thing I love about television. It keeps me on the set. Like, I love being on set. Yeah. I love directing. I love directing actors. You do? I live for it.

It's my favorite thing, working with actors. It's fantastic. And when I do my own movies, I'm like, you know, for a while there, I mean, I made six movies in nine years. And, you know a 14 months between them that's not a long time in in sort of filmmaking you know it's a pretty good filmmaking years in director years swanberg yeah you know yeah aside well he's making a movie by sleeping he's got a camera on five movies at the same time but um but even so that's a years over a year that

i'm not on set yeah yeah So TV gets me on set. And as long as I'm working, I've been really lucky because I've worked on all these shows where people like each other and the work is fun and it's good. Right. And I get to work with people that – but I've made – I had a revelation I think you'll appreciate. Okay. Maybe not. No, probably won't. I like revelations.

I'm kind of obsessed with a little bit with Chopped, this show. You're just coming into that? I kind of am. I'm a little late to the party. Really? Yeah. I mean, you know, the last, whatever, couple years or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

But I'll sort of binge watch it when I can. And I realized very recently, oh my God, this is why I love television directing, because it's like Chopped. It's like I come in and I'm given my basket of ingredients. I got a script. I'm just handed a script. I'm handed a bunch of cast. Here's a crew that you've never met.

And a kitchen you're not familiar with. Yeah, exactly. I roll up my sleeves. I just got to make the best meal I can. And that really is it. It's invigorating and it's fun. But I'm not the admiral of the fleet.

I'm the captain of the ship because, you know, the writer is the king in TV. And I got to say, you know, in Seattle, there's this great filmmaking community. Seattle is where I live and there are a bunch of filmmakers and all, you know, the crew that have crewed my films and all the other filmmakers, those are my buds. Like those are everybody that I hang out with and I love. You've never lived down here? No. Huh.

I just come down in my little Kia Soul and spend some time working and then go back up. You're from Seattle. Yeah, raised in Seattle. Really, really, really kind of obsessively love Seattle. Yeah. I spent time there. I know that place.

Spent time? Yeah, I got an ex from there. Ah. You know my ex. I spent time there. I know that place. Spent time? Yeah, I got an ex from there. Ah. You know my ex. Yes, I do. And that makes me feel really dumb, too, because I worked with your ex for quite a while. Yeah. Only just recently somebody pointed out to me that she was your ex.

I had no idea. She's certainly not going to volunteer it. Nope, she didn't. Are you making a movie? I don't do deep Googling. Nope, she didn't. Are you making a movie? I don't do deep Googling.

We have been in the throes of developing a film, and now she's kind of going back and reworking it. Reworking the script? Yeah. That's a good story. It's an amazing story. Yeah. And do you know that whole area? Did you grow up in that?

Where'd you grow up in Seattle? I grew up in a very white part of town always. I moved around. I mean, most of Seattle is very, very white. What part? Well, let's see. I was raised in, when I was in high school, I was living in Maple Leaf and then Wedgwood and Ravenna. Yeah, so kind of northwest. Did your old man work for Boeing or something?

No, no, never had that connection. My dad is a lawyer who then turned into a mediator. He's now been doing mediation, which is even better. For people that want to leave each other? That kind of mediation? No, no, no. Like disputes between an insurance company and a grieved person or something like that. It's a more diplomatic, decent-minded practice. It is, and a lot cheaper.

It avoids a lot of... Yeah, it's great. And he feels like he's really good at it and feels really good. It's interesting. I didn't think that I had a real connection to what my parents do until... And then I realized, oh, actually, well, okay, that's like a people-person thing and being able to collaborate and stuff. You got to...

And then my mom... You sought that out? You retrofitted that oh i'm i am like him i i i work with many people and i'm diplomatic and these revelations come to me a little i'm a little bit late how am i their child exactly well because there's no you know artsy fartsy stuff going on with them but with but his two brothers uh are one is a poet and one is a sculptor actually lives down here so i always identified strongly with them you know and my mom is the same way she's got a phd in developmental psychology and ended up working in administrating um early childhood education funds and all you know it all sounds very creative to

me it you know it is and then psychology thing, like those are my favorite classes in college because I want to know how people work and how they tick. Well, that's what I like about your movies is that, you know,

you don't hit anybody over the head. Like I always end up crying for some reason, touchy-feely. I was squirting out tears this morning at the end. Well, that dentist character.

I can't even tell you what that means to me. Really? Yeah, Josh Peiss, man. Yeah, it's like, at first you're like, is he mentally challenged or infantile? But then you realize it's just this weird kind of highly emotional, but closed. It's hard to be closed off and highly emotional.

As it turns out, yeah. But he does it. He's an interesting actor. He's a really interesting actor i mean he's the kind of guy if you start digging into his filmography he tends to play these supporting character roles and his range is insane like he's one of those guys where you're like oh that guy you know like i knew i knew him but i know where from exactly yeah yeah and you find these um like the first time i i became really obsessed with him was Mike White made this movie called Year of the Dog with Molly Shannon starring.

And Josh plays her boss. Yeah. And he just had this rhythm. He took all this time and Mike gave him all of this room to be that character. And I just was like, who is this guy? I was so obsessed with him. You gotta use that guy yeah and then we happened to meet you know in a green room somewhere and he i sort of i kind of

gushed and gushed and gushed about him and he was very you know he's very graceful yeah yeah oh you know and then it came out my i was with my editor my amazing editor net sanders and he dropped that i had edited i had directedump Day, which Josh had just seen. And so he, you know, the tables returned and he started gushing and gushing. And so it was like, well, we have to work together, you know? And then, so I wrote that part for him specifically and the other part for Rosemary Dewitt in Touchy Feely.

And you've used her a couple of times. Yeah, she's also incredible. Is she like an alter ego kind of person? A little bit, yeah. I mean, that film was a film that- Touchy Feely? Touchy Feely was a film that was inside of me that I had to make because it was a very personal film. I've never felt more vulnerable making a movie. Really? Yeah. Well, where does something like that start?

How do you move through those feelings and come up with that story? Why that story was so close to you? Well, I wanted to do a bunch of things with that movie. I wanted to try to make a film with more than two or three people. I wanted to have an ensemble. Ensemble, yeah. Yeah, and I wanted to interweave stories, have parallel editing

where you go back and forth between different storylines. You'd never done that before? I hadn't done it in my own work. I'd always followed a straight, one straight linear story. Because you had more control, you were more comfortable with that? It was just what I did.

Yeah. It was just what I had done so far. It was the way you wrote. Yeah. Right. It was the way I thought that I wrote. Yeah. The narrative worked for me.

And so Touchy Feely was a way to do that. And to get out of the one location. I mean, I'd done a couple movies in a row, three movies in a row, actually, because My Effortless Brilliance was my second movie. And that was also- a row, actually, because My Effortless Brilliance was my second movie, and that was also in it. Which one? It's called My Effortless Brilliance. It's on Amazon and iTunes and stuff. So my very first... I've made

six movies. My first one was, like, I wrote a script, and I cast people, and mostly all, in fact, all local actors in Seattle. They were all theater actors, and I had been in the theater. I had been an actor. And so I just kind of like really made them, I wanted them to feel loved.

And even in the audition process, like, you know, I had been traumatized by going to auditions that made me feel like shit. Yeah. Yeah. In Seattle when I was young and still. And then in New York, I moved to New York. I was in New York in the 90s. All right, so maybe we should go back and load this up so we can get to Touchy Feely,

the most personal movie you've made, instead of talk about it out of the gate. Okay. So you're a little kid in Seattle. Do you have siblings? I have a brother who's five years younger. And then when I was 16 or 17, my dad married my stepmom. So I was eight. My folks got divorced and ended up.

It's one of those relationships. It's really hard for me to imagine them together. Right. My mom and stepdad definitely. Yeah, they're good. My dad and stepmom definitely fit. People they love. One side totally introverted.

The other side totally extroverted. But they were reasonably good raising you separately? I think so. You know, it's funny because I have only very, I don't have any traumatizing memories of the divorce. But I sort of remember thinking growing up things like, oh, it will be very interesting for me to be able to experience these two different environments. I just sort of don't remember really having a problem with it. And that whole idea of kids feeling like, oh, it's their fault. I was like, why would you think it was your fault? It has nothing to do with you.

I was like, I don't understand. You knew that then, at eight. That's what I, yeah, that's what I remember remember being very mature about it and then in retrospect i found it recently that i was i was kind of a little shit and when we moved into this new house or it was the first time maybe that my my stepdad moved in with us i drew a map i don't remember this but i supposedly presented my parents my my mom and stepdad with a map of where they were allowed in the house to kiss. You know, there's shit like that. Right. With the new guy. With the new guy, yeah.

And my God, I mean, he was- It seemed like fairly self-protective and a decent boundary for an eight or nine-year-old. I suppose, but- Why wouldn't you be uncomfortable with your mom kissing some new guy on some level? I know. It seemed to make perfect sense. I don't know that maybe you should give you- Maybe it was empowered, not shitty.

Yeah. I'm going to spin it. But if you want to see yourself as a little shit, you could do that. Thank you. They did end up with who they were supposed to end up with. Was your brother like a save the marriage kid? My brother, I think, you know, my mother told me that she just had a really hard time getting pregnant. So I was a love child. They were really young when they had me. Got pregnant when they were both Oberlin College students. That's really young. Grad school or undergrad?

No, no, undergrad. I was my dad's 21st birthday present. Wow. My mom had just turned 22. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I don't know if they would have stayed together if it hadn't been for me. But they decided to make a go of it.

And then my brother came along a few years later. And then, yeah, it all kind of went to shit. How's he doing? It was all for the best, though. He's great. He's a transportation planner, also in Seattle, with a couple kids. You know, we were so, I think we were far enough apart as we were growing up that we just never felt. I don't feel like I got really close with him until we became adults.

That's good, though. It's good now. Which is fine. You got nieces and nephews and whatnot. Yeah. And you got kids. And then I got one kid. And he's got a couple of kids, so it's nice.

Because I only have one. I only have the only kid. And so it's nice that he has my kid, Milo, has somebody to have a shared history with. Cousins. And then they get along. Yeah, I never had cousins. And they're in the same town. The same town.

It's nice. That's what people used to do. Yeah, they don't have to live together, but they can see each other enough. Generations. Are your folks still there? Yeah, my folks are all there. So they've got grandparents and cousins? Your husband's kids? Your husband's got other kids? No, no, no. His parents.

Okay. Yeah, my in-laws. Right. But you grew up before the tech money came in. So it was sort of like not that big a deal that city yeah i mean you want to take a look at what seattle used to be there's a great movie cinderella liberty with james conn it's a great movie i love that movie but it's sort of interesting though those 70s movies really did they they seem to be tonally um appropriate for the pacific northwest you know because like even if you watch five Easy Pieces on the road, towards the end where he just

gets on that truck, that there's some dark, weird kind of thing. I have a real emotional, I can't identify the attraction to that. I spent two years in Alaska as a kid. Oh, really? But you feel like you're closer to the top of the world, but not in a good way necessarily. There's sort of a foreboding to it. An undercurrent or something. Is there, or is it me?

No, I could totally. I see what you're... I mean, yeah. Every time I even see Seattle, even looking at it in your movie today, there's an intensity to it. Yeah, there's a resonance. Yeah, with the big trees and the rocks and the shoreline and all that shit. Yeah, and the skies.

Yeah, gray. I mean, we have the most... It's gray, but it's not just a blanket. I remember really being surprised at how much I missed the skies in New York. I was there for almost a decade. And when it gets overcast, it's just like, they have a lot of really ugly, flat, glary skies. Right.

And Seattle, it's never like that. Huge. It's just like, it's this beautiful texture, you know, shapes of all different colors of gray. Yeah. But also, you know, other hues in there. That's what I feel like. It's the top of the world. Like you feel like there's a weight to it all, you know, I don't know.

But I feel it. And in this, well, and you also have that, it's almost like Scandinavia in that you get these super, super long nights. Yeah. In the winter and then really long days in the summer and it's it's i i spend like a you know i'll do i'll do a pilot i'll shoot a pilot or something down here i'm here for like a few weeks and i'm like oh yeah it's not it's not like that down here like that you know it's much more even you know when you're yeah no it's bad it's like eventually you just don't like you don't even know time is passing and you're like where's my life

gone and yeah the weather never changes yeah no it's just you spend a lot of time in your car and then one day you're like wow 10 years went by did i do anything let me look myself up so all right so you're this precocious kid giving your parents bossing them around in seattle but apparently apparently you're not a depcious kid giving your parents bossing them around in Seattle. Yeah, a little shit. But apparently you're not a depressive. You don't seem to wear the weight of Seattle on you. Well, that's what Touchy Feely was actually dealing with. I did go through this period of depression.

Later? About five years ago. Five years ago? Well, I've had my little bouts. I mean, I remember there were moments in college when I was curled up in a ball in the back of the closet. I definitely have had these moments in my life. But it got especially bad about, yeah, the peak of it was about five, six years ago. It was right around when I was making Your Sister, Sister, oddly.

So weird that I was, as I was shooting it and as I was editing it, the whole time I was just kind of going, is this going to be likable? Like, I can't tell if this is a good movie. That was your style of depression, not like, what's the point of doing any of this? No, no, it was that. I had that. It was very shameful for me because my work, ever since I started making features, it was like, oh my God, this is what I was always meant to do.

I sort of totally, and it was late in life. I was 39 when I made my first feature. And so everything sort of came to me in a, I sort of self-actualized quite late in life. And felt it's late bloomers unite. I love it. Never thought, you know, all I was going to be an artist,

never thought in a million years, I'd be able to make a living at it. And I was fine with that. You know, I'd always part to be an artist, never thought in a million years I'd be able to make a living at it. Yeah. And I was fine with that. You know, I'd always part-time teach. I'd part-time edit. I'd whatever, you know, do to pay the bills and then just keep making my art. And then I have always been at my happiest and most deeply joyful when I'm making my work. So here I am in one of the most beautiful places on earth, which is an island north of Seattle in the San Juan Islands.

Which one? I promised not to tell, so I can't tell. Oh. The way we were able to get access to that location was by promising not to tell exactly where it was. And with this unbelievable cast, Emily Blunt, Rosemary DeWitt, Mark Duplass, we have a great, you know, I've written 80 pages of a script that we're, you know, it's going to be a great film. I've got my favorite people, my crew up there. I mean, it was the whole thing was sort of perfect. Yeah.

And I would literally wake up in the morning and be like, what's the point of this? Why are we doing this? Oh, right. Making a movie. Why? I mean, it was. But it wasn't dread. I mean, it was close enough it wasn't dread. I mean,

it was close enough. It was really, it was bad, you know? And I, I felt so, I felt so much shame about it because I was, it was such a mystery to me.

I mean, it was like everything on paper is going so beautifully, right? Everything that you have, your heart's desire and you can't feel the joy. I mean, it just drove me crazy. And that's what touchy feely really was, was about, you know, what is this thing that you can't talk about to anybody because it's so it feels somehow there's this deep shame associated with it and this mystery. even in exploring it, decide that it was founded?

Because in Touchy Feely, these are people that are not following their hearts or had gotten locked off from them somehow, as opposed to saying, like, I have a chemical imbalance. I mean, experiencing that weird feeling of emptiness when everything is going well is not that unusual for creative people. I know. It's a horrible moment. It was new for me. It was horrible.

Because it was new. I wasn't used to it. And it was definitely chemical, but it was interesting because I came at it from this very, you know, like I've had, I've had, I had, I recognized the feeling from the one day, I was really lucky for many, many years where I would have one black day a month, a day before my period or whatever. It was like this sort of hormonal thing. And my period would come and I'd go,

oh, great, that's what it was, thank God. It's amazing how some women are surprised by that every fucking month. Every month. Every month I'm like, what is wrong? What's going on? Life is horrible. Oh, right, okay.

God, you idiot. Yeah. Well, we have a regular cycle, so it anyway but you know i i recognize that so i was like okay this is clearly a hormonal thing this is physiological right let's look you know at what to do and i remember i was like oh you're not eating enough protein and you need the amino acids to make the neurotransmitters and you know and so i like did all this stuff and took my multivitamin, my B, you know, multi B complex, whatever. I did all that stuff and I was still having a problem. And I remember somebody telling me, you know, I don't think it's just physiological, you know, and I don't think it's just, and then I started exploring, you know, meditation and

trying to like figure out other things to, you know, just kind of other ways in. Like massage, Reiki, potions. I'd always wanted to do Reiki, and that was my excuse was, oh, I have to do it for research because I'm making this movie where there's going to be Reiki. And so I was able to finally explore that. But were you dark when you made Touchy Feely? I was still, I was sort of coming out of it. to finally explore that. But were you dark when you made Touchy Feely? I was still,

I was sort of coming out of it. So I wasn't super in the, like the peak of it really was Your Sister, Sister. And then, you know, only after I'd actually finished completing, making it, was I able to say, oh, I really love this movie.

I'm really proud of it. You know, it was sort of, it was almost like. Good that you did the work. Well, yeah. It was almost like I realized, I, it was sort of, it was almost like the work. Well, yeah, it was almost like I realized I heard somebody talking about postpartum depression once.

And she talked about how she sees this beautiful baby. You know, she saw it after it was born and was like understood objectively that it was a lovable being and she should love it. And it was lovable and couldn't just couldn't feel that connection to it. It was very much like that for me with that film where, and then only later was i able to actually but not with your kid my kid i didn't have postpartum depression i loved him right away that's good yeah well i noticed though also in um in touchy feely because it's fresh in my head that you know the those

weird um kind of intense close-up shots of. And then there was another shot when she was kind of tripping of concrete breaking down. And it struck me as this sort of realization of temporal, that everything's sort of temporary and decay and life. And what does it mean? Yeah, and the connection. Did I read into that? No, not at all. And the connection, I was trying to draw a connection between the cracks and the concrete

and the cracks, you know, those super close-up cracks that you see in your skin. The only two close-ups. Delivered. Message delivered. Thank you. But, yeah, she's, you know, she's not 20, you know, and there's a reason that character isn't 20. And what was going on for that character, Rosemary DeWitt's character in Touchy Feely,

is that, yeah, my concept with her was that she had been in a relationship that hadn't been so, you know, she's sort of been suppressing her own identity and her own fulfillment, you know, in her 20s, into her 30s, and then was pretty newly. Enter the healing arts, which is what they do. Well, she gets out of the, you know, of the divorce and goes, you know, changes, hits the reset button at 36 or whatever. Goes in massage school and just puts on a whole new life. This is backstory, by the way. This is backstory.

She, you know, goes out with guys who are younger. She's supposed to, the guy she's with, Scoot McNary, is, you know, younger dude. Somebody who doesn't have all the cares of the world you know maybe your old her ex was like an insurance agent or something whatever she sort of had you know he was who her parents would have approved of and and this is somebody they wouldn't approve of working some stuff out yeah and so she's really like she's found this she's going through her own sexual revolution like she's really and she feels like yeah you know i'm doing it i've got a thirst for life and but this depression that comes on is really like her soul knocking it's like oh not biological

you're not this all this like you know live in life and screwing your boyfriend and your brother's bathroom and trying to be a rebel like it's really not what it's all about like there's other other shit that needs to be attended to you know and so it was it's sort of like other shit that needs to be attended to you know and so it was it's sort of like it's a bad it's a it's a weird feeling at a certain age where you realize that you know through habit and fear that you are disconnected from something yeah why but let me ask you this why uh because i have i there's another interesting part of the movie that I want to know if you thought of it. Mm-hmm. Why a dentist? Oh. You know, I think it was honestly a holdover because Josh and I had been,

that actor and I had been talking for a couple years about, had been throwing around ideas. And for a while, we actually were on the road of making another film and the character was going to be a dentist. Yeah. and so we had talked a lot about who this guy might be and you know it was it was this funny idea where he was actually going to end up becoming a cult leader and so this is like a little bit of a a reformation of this character we'd already been talking about right and i can't

remember who brought it up because we really were going back and forth about what the occupation would be. And he might have come up with dentist or I might have. I can't remember. But you know what's interesting about it? Like I've talked about this with one other person whose father was a dentist. But there was a passage in, I think, John Updike's Couples. And it's about a dentist.

One of the characters in it is a dentist. And it's about a dentist. One of the characters in it is a dentist. And there's this whole passage about how the immediacy and relentless nature of decay is something that dentists have to deal with every day over and over again. That's what you're fighting. Wow. Like you see it in the mouths every day, this decay. Yeah.

And it always struck me as a very sort of weird existential um realization i i tried to get it out of my friend whose dad was a dentist but he just wouldn't have it but but but i think you know metaphorically or symbolically there's something about it within the movie that works like that so if you wanted to say you were aware of that from here on out i will i'm stealing that i do that all the time by the way because i just i make films on this very gut level you know doesn't that read oh totally totally scans and the other thing i think somebody else probably pointed out to me as well was the intimacy of you know i mean it's for both of their occupations they have these incredibly intimate acts with strangers sure you know here she is your mouth and then open your mouth i mean coming in it's incredibly intimate yeah and yet you know

there's this issue with a real connection intimacy intimacy the trust and all that and you just so talking about intimacy you just reminded me even though we're not we haven't we've sort of skipped ahead somehow again you did it very non-linear sorry That's the way my brain. No, it doesn't. We just established that your brain works. Literally, literally, literally. Oh, I can't do it. I the way I got through the vulnerability that I felt in making that movie was coming to my both my crew and my cast and saying, I'm, I'm like laid bare making this thing. And, uh, what about your husband?

What about my husband? What about, didn't you, does he enter the equation when you're all sad and laid bare with your crew? I mean, did you, did you hip him to the issues? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, no, absolutely. He's totally, but he's on board. He gets it. He's on the same page, yeah, sure. All right, fine. Yeah, no, absolutely. He's totally, but... He's on board.

He gets it. He's on the same page. But he's not on set with me. What does he do? He is, right now, he's making furniture in our garage. Wood?

Wood furniture? Work in the surfaces? Gorgeous. It's not a large garage, so he's able to make like coffee tables. Oh. Although I so he's able to make coffee tables. Although I think he's going to make a bed frame and then assemble it elsewhere.

With found wood? With wood from salvaged barns and things? Sometimes. He's good with the surfaces and the finishes? He is. He had a really interesting... We've been together forever. Since you were a kid? Well, I would consider that age at the time to be a kid.

I think I was, we started living together when I was 24 and then got married at 28. And that was a long time ago. That's pretty good. Yeah. But that's four years. It seemed like you meant it. Oh, yeah. You were in.

Yeah. You didn't get married 10 years in. But the changes that we've gone through at the time, he had been plucked. His original plan was to get an engineering degree and be an industrial designer, but then he got sort of plucked from the masses and he became an MTV VJ. Which one? Kevin Seale is his name. He was on from like 89 to 90, no, 87 to 91.

Right. And he- You met him in New York? No, no. He actually is from Seattle too. So we were, we knew each other there and then I kind of followed him out. I was like, yeah, I'm going to work in the theater. I'm going to be an actress in the theater.

And then it was like, and I'm going to also figure out what the hell's going on between me and this guy. So he was able to then after parlay that into like voiceover talent, kind of corporate commercial stuff. And we, and I dragged him back to Seattle when I was quite pregnant, and there just isn't enough work of that sort to make a living. So he went to industrial design school, and now he's in the garage. And he worked in a real actual shop getting paid good money.

But then when I got really busy in my career, that place he was working kind of went downhill, went bankrupt, actually. And so when he was looking around for a new job, it was, he realized, we realized the most important job you could be doing, actually, is taking care of our kid who's deaf and who needs, you know, is like, is going to a lot of different, you know, driving into the special school. Right. So, yeah, it turns out he's a much better full-time parent than I am.

Great. And, yeah, it suits him. They're like best friends. Yeah, it's great. It's so great. So I can leave without feeling, you know, like, I know the... You know what you're doing? Here's the list. They're like best friends. Yeah, it's great. It's so great. So I can leave without feeling, you know, like I know the- You know what you're doing? Here's the list.

All the fires are burning. Yeah. Right, right, right. He's the one who gives me the list. Here are the numbers. Exactly. All right. So you tell your crew that you're laid bare.

Yeah. So I remember the first day we did a table read of this script that I'd written. And there were parts of it that I was like, I just want to skip over this part because it just made me feel like I felt like I was going to vomit. Really? And then I was like, no, Lynn, it's okay. We're going to do it. I don't know. And I just was really honest.

I said, look, the revelation I had during this in a very deep way. Which part? The part where she describes losing losing her virginity right which is kind of in the house from the livingston yeah yeah it was kind of just right out of you yeah yeah pretty much yeah made me feel pretty yeah so you were seeking closure with this script in a way yeah i was some weird way i was a movie that I was like, okay, I gave myself permission to make a movie

that was not going to be accessible or commercial or, you know. One of the reasons that I was the editor was that I started as an editor and I wanted to see if I could still do it. But also, I didn't want to. But it's interesting you would think that because it's got like three happy endings yeah but the places it goes and the people that you know it's hard to

make a compelling narrative with with really passive aggressive or just passive you know closed off people it's it's just and it wasn't everybody but half of that but that's But that's sort of a question of something you brought up earlier, which is on my mind because I saw Annie Baker play in New York. I saw the flick. This idea of space and not over explaining and finding the truth in emotion in space between people. You're aware of that. So aware of that. So interested in that. in space between people. Yeah. You're aware of that.

So aware of that. So interested in that. So interested in not over spelling everything out. I just gave you a rundown on the backstory of this character. That's just a taste of the incredible up the wazoo backstory we have for everybody in every relationship. But that's your relationship with actors. You give them that. It is, but it's really important for me to have them have these really, a really clear sense of who they are so that when, you know, the chemistry between them is palpable or the tensions from the past is right there.

And you can feel it. I don't want the audience to know all that crap. They don't have to know all that shit. You know, if they get a touch, a little piece as just pieces it's fine but for me it's all about creating that when do you tell them that oh it's months we're we're usually or four weeks before shooting yeah there's a lot of you sit down with all of them yeah or or a lot of phone i'm up in seattle so i'm on the phone with them a lot i mean but like your sister sisters are great example i mean i developed those characters with mark and em, and it was actually another actress before Rose swooped in and saved us.

But the script is the script. But I do it in a kind of upside down way where I'm sort of developing the script alongside the development of the characters. development of the characters because i wanted who the characters are i have to know who the characters are before i can believably um you know write what they would believably do in a scene how what they would say how they would act and the more you know about the characters the easier it is to write what they would do because it's like you're then you can just sort of improvise the scene out in your head because you know who they are right but you know i don't like to throw people into an improv situation when they don't have any of that stuff.

Right. You know, they're just like, and then it's like a little song, you know. Which a lot of people do. Soft shooting. Yeah. And it drives me. I couldn't. Yeah.

Because I would think that most people that do those kind of movies where it's loose like that, they don't get that type of backstory. They don't get that type of direction. And you can sort of feel it. Yeah. I mean, I feel can sort of feel it. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I can. Yeah. Yeah.

And also, like, I don't think that all, you know, that's a unique thing for a director to do, to put that much collaboration and time into making these characters come to life. Most people I've talked to or I've seen, there's a trust with the actor to just do his job. Right. Exactly. And I don't know that that's always good. It's less fun for me, too.

Because, again, my favorite thing about making movies is working with actors. So the more excuse I have to get in there with them and figure that stuff out. But, again, it's going to feed the narrative. But is that because do you see yourself as a failed actress? No. Good. Not at all. Well, you wanted to be an actor.

When I was an actor, I mean, I started taking class. I was very serious in my, you know, I started when I was like 11 taking classes and doing whatever I could do. That was when it started. I took a how to be a clown class. You did? Yeah. And I was super shy. Do you remember any of that?

Oh, yeah. clown class you did yeah and i was i was super shy oh yeah what i remember is that the the liberation of putting literally you know like i mean it was a it was makeup but it was a mask it was like right white face and uh and walking around seattle center on my stilts and interacting with people at 11 in a way yeah that i never that was like our graduation or whatever i it was a way that you know yeah they were like this high um that i never could have done in real life and so it was this outlet was a way for me to interact with people and there were there were two things that i did um like safe ways that i found to interact with other humans and connect with other humans it was through you know being i could be somebody else completely utterly on a stage and make that

connection with an audience and with other actors on the stage. You know, that was just like buzzy stuff. It was amazing. And then there was also photography. So in high school, again, super, I was, I was in this brief period of mandatory busing. So, you know, I grew up in white neighborhoods. The reason I connected so strongly to Mishnah's I'm Down is that I was bused to, strongly to um mission is i'm down is that i was bused to yeah uh from sixth grade through high school to the central district where the african-american community was and that was it was a very um uh the culture was very african-american of those schools that i went to and middle school through high school and so i went to the same high school you know jimmy hendricks went to and quincy jones and Garfield High School. And you were a darkroom rat?

And I was a darkroom rat. And I remember I would hide behind my telephoto lens of my Pentax 2000 and I would like K1000. And I would find these ways in, you know, I would capture these intimate moments of vulnerability, you know, across the gym. Yeah. You know, and so it was the safe place to be, but I was still looking, always looking for connection like we always are. But between that and then the acting, which enabled me to just become somebody else and not worry, I was very self-conscious.

That's interesting, though, that the photography was the outlet. I did photography in high school, and I didn't think about it the same way because it's not really connecting. It's almost like stealing moments. No, you're stealing and you're observing.

Yeah. You know, but... You're the freak with the camera. There's that girl with the camera. Yeah, exactly. But I still felt connected.

I felt weirdly connected. When you can find these moments of vulnerability, you know, unguarded moments, you feel like, oh, they're not so scary. Sure, sure. They are somebody I could, you know, maybe I could moments, you feel like, oh, I, they're not so scary.

Sure. They are somebody I could, you know, maybe I could have a conversation with someday or whatever, you know? Right. And, um, yeah, so that was a really important thing for me, tool for me developmentally, I think. Um, and. It's very odd though, to see someone like, sometimes when I overhear conversations that,

you know, are charged, you know, I feel like I feel like I'm in violation of something. For sure. Which is why I kind of stopped making docs. Because I did documentaries for a long time. And that's an uncomfortable zone for me. Where you're sort of... Maybe you're shooting something that the person doesn't even realize that they're exposing themselves in some way

or the way you present it. It's like, ah, it makes me nervous, you know? So there you are, you're doing the photographs and you're acting. The failed actress thing. So I get a BA in drama, school of drama, at the school of drama. It was actually for a year,

I was at Oberlin for a year and then went to the University of Washington. Well, it's interesting because of what you're saying because I talked to Sir Ian McKellen in here. Oh, my God. But he because it was interesting that what we came upon and whether he did it on my show or not for the first time was that because he was so heavily closeted culturally as a gay man at the time he was coming up that he identifies, you know, Shakespeare and acting as a way to have the emotions that people in relationships that they didn't have to be culturally ashamed of to have them. Wow. So I thought that was kind of...

It is. It's this conduit for stuff that, I mean, I found it to be extremely therapeutic to be able to do. And then when I moved to New York after college. You went to first Oberlin? I went to Oberlin for a year. In the acting program. The very first, in acting and also creative writing, I was a poet, too. So that was actually my very first art form.

You know, I feel like we have a lot in common. Yeah. Yeah, I'll show you some of my poems, maybe. Awesome. I have only two or three that I'm proud of. Yeah. Occasionally write a poem now. I love poems.

Do you still love poems? I do. Really? You read poetry? It's one of the things. I just went through and culled a whole bunch of books, realizing, okay, this is ridiculous. I don't need. And I couldn't give a single poetry book away.

It was like, no. No, they seem special. Absolutely. You should always have as much poetry in the house as possible. But yeah, so I went for creative writing. I got a really bad experience where I found out later that the guy hadn't even read my samples. But I was dying for it. I'd been writing all through poetry.

I mean, sorry, all through high school. And I really wanted some feedback. And the poetry teacher basically said, you know, I never let freshmen in for a reason. But he kind of dismissed my poems. I found out later he didn't even read the ones that I'd submitted to him. How'd you find that out? Um, I can't remember. Some inside way.

It was, uh, and then I stopped writing because of that for like a really long time. It was so dumb. But yeah, I had a hard time. Anyway, so I, I was an actor. You had a hard time. What happened? time uh anyway so i i was an actor well i had a hard time what happened adolescence kind of was uh did a number on me which it does a lot for because you didn't fit in young women okay no there's this book called reviving ophelia do you know about this book no it was it was a huge boy i talk about so many revelations on this show. It's a little embarrassing. But I was writing the script of my first feature, which is really about the way that we are different selves in different points in our lives.

And the pre and post-adolescent selves were something I was looking back on and was like, wow, that was fascinating. Because those were like polar opposite kind of personalities when I was in my late 30s. I was looking back at that. And then I was telling a friend about this script I was writing. And she said, well, you got to read this book. And it was like, oh, I wasn't the only one. Like, there's this thing that happens when you become sexualized for some girls, some women, a lot of them. Where I just felt like I was, you know, peak, the top of my game when I was like 12, 13.

And I was writing stories, writing poetry, painting, playing music, doing, yeah, acting, doing all this stuff and taking photographs and, um, had such a clarity of vision and a confidence in my voice and, you know, and then, yeah, cut to like 20. I just, it was about 14, 15. Well, it was like a gradual grinding down, I think, you know, and it wasn't anything to do with my folks. It was always told by both of them, you can do whatever you want.

You can be whoever you want. You can be president. You can be an artist. It was about the culture of high school. Very feminist. And it was society, really. And this kind of, I got really big boobs.

And I already had the tendency to be sort of self-conscious. No, that wasn't, I don't think I did. I was very androgynous and tomboy before. Then I felt sort of betrayed by my body. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? You know, that isn't who I am.

Right. And it felt like that was the first thing people, everybody noticed about me, even though I don't know if it was or not. And I started wearing tents. And then it got into this whole thing like, you know, oh, are you looking at me? Don't look at me. You know, look at me. You know, like that whole, like, look at me? Don't look at me, you know, look at me, you know, like that whole like, don't look at me, look at me. That's a kind of a thing

that happens as well, I think. And then just the sexual charge, I think, of high school for sure. But yeah, I don't know. It's just really something about that really kind of ground out my sense of agency. And so there was really a period of time when all I really could do was act because somebody else was telling me, it was like I was a puppet. I was saying what other people told me to say. And all this weird attention and self-consciousness diminished your confidence and creativity. It did. And so I felt like there was this trickle. You know, I didn't start directing feature films until I was 39 for a reason. I don't think I was capable of it back then. And I needed to shed some of that self-consciousness and gain a sense of maturity and a sense of authority. It's funny.

I have an ex from years ago who actually lives in Seattle. She's a sculptor and when I met her in Boston, she's a real tough Jersey girl and she used to bartend at a strip joint but she wasn't a stripper. It was not her bag and she quit And I said, why did she quit? And she said, I got tired of men looking at me like I was meat. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it gets a little boring. But I knew so many women who could.

I remember this woman who was, I mean, women who just relish their bodies. And I remember some of the class and people. And I was just like, I was so horrified by my body. I just really i don't know what it was it just for me it was really and that's but why do you get over and why'd the writing uh go away as a form of expression just because that idiot shut you down i think a little bit because the idiot shut me down and because i just sort of didn't have as much to say i didn't feel like i had anything to say or what i was you couldn't process what we're talking about now. Not at all.

Yeah. Because you weren't aware of it really. Exactly. I was in it. You know, I was too close to it. Yeah. So acting became the thing. So acting became the thing.

Yeah. And it was a little bit my, you know, again, my sort of secret shame that will is because it's really the only thing I can do right now. Like I have to be an artist. I always knew I wanted to be an artist. Yeah. But, you know, this is sort of it was down to this. Like this is all i could do and then when i moved to new york to do it it wasn't it was when i started trying to make a living at it just it was like oh this sucks you

know so you did a year at oberlin a year and then you go to new york and go where no no i was at the school of visual i was i'm sorry i was at the school of drama i got a degree in i could be a in drama at university of washington. Then I moved to New York. So you went back home after Oberlin. Oberlin for me, yeah. And then you went to New York with a degree in drama

to be an actress on Broadway. Yeah. Although not Broadway. I wanted to be at the New York Theatre Workshop where they were doing Carol Churchill plays. And I saw my friend

Garrett Dillahunt in Mad Forest and I was like, oh my God, this is it. That's what I want. That's what I want. That's what I want. And then I found out how much those actors made. And that there was no way they could possibly pay the rent on that. Ever.

On my dream job. Sure. Ever. Yeah. And I was like, what the, how do you, I don't get it. How is it? What is this? It sucks.

So how long were you in New York? I was there for nine and a half years. So you stuck with it? No, I didn't. So what I did was after a couple years of doing a lot and i did a lot of fun cool downtown stuff and then and then really turned and it was it had always been an addiction like i you know that was really what it felt like i have to be in a show what's coming up next i gotta be in a show and i really transferred my addiction to the dark room that was when i got became really serious about photography so at the international center of photography in new york i

started taking classes and like yeah and then built up enough of a body of work to get into grad school, School of Visual Arts. I went to the- For photography. For photography. So my MFA was in photography and related media. You got it. You like the chemistry of it all

and the light and the processing. Yeah, and being the looker and not the looked at was much healthier for me. And it was also a time where you had to know your chemicals and your papers and your films and your stocks. Yeah, although it wasn't a super nerd out, like what I loved about, There was also a time where you had to know your chemicals and your papers and your films and your stocks. Yeah. Although it wasn't a super nerd out. Like what I loved about, and luckily, I mean, I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today if it weren't for the case that this was not a fine print.

It wasn't all about the fine print. Like I almost applied to Yale, but that was really all about getting the perfect darkroom technique. But it wasn't digital. It was starting. Digital was starting. That's why it was called an MFA in photography and related media, because they were just starting to learn. But you knew your way around the darkroom.

I did, for sure. And I was going in doing the Vivian Meyer, I always forget how to say her name, style photographs, Helen Levitt, Robin Frank. That was how I was started with street photography, black and white street photography. But then by the time I got out, I was doing, I was like, I was somewhere straddling the line, I didn't really know, between video art and experimental film. Because I was able to take those classes. And so I started by making these little, I started in filmmaking by making these little handcrafted movies that I did everything myself. And I was like shooting on Super 8 and then whacking up my bathroom and cracking it up with a hammer and hand developing and getting, you know, solarizing it.

And just doing, you know, really experimenting. It was pure self-expression. I wasn't trying. I wasn't thinking about an audience. I was really wanted to be a serious artist. So you're doing like, you know, working the surface of the film and all that shit. Yeah, but also exploring other things. Peggy Awish was my thesis advisor.

And so like. Who is she? Hit me to her she's uh she was sort of the super eight film experimental film queen of the 80s did all kinds of really groovy and she was your she was your mentor yeah you could they wanted they encouraged you or they required you to find an art a working artist that you admired to be your thesis advisor as opposed to somebody on the staff yeah it was great and so i saw all of her work and she introduced me to a whole bunch of other experimental filmmakers and um and at the time you know i was also like going to see bill viola and gary hill and all these

people and so um that was all kind of i was looking for you know i was doing all my own sound design and shooting and figuring out what doing vhs stuff with me like that yeah and i would like well like i did vhs but i also so i was exploring um like my first film was called white and i just got married and it was i was sort of uncomfortable with that sort of reckoning with the idea of entering the institution of marriage which i had a troubled you know kind of and so i was sort of i made my husband dress up and i sort of wrapped him in this white, paper white wedding dress and had him, you know, swan around the roof of our apartment building and then shot it and then slowed it down and then re-scanned it. And I was just, you know, I was just fucking around. I was just trying to figure out stuff.

Yeah, but the interesting thing is, is in your story that, you story that I don't always hear, which is that you were committed to art. Totally. And at some point, you must have realized how obscure that would be as a life. I did. So there was a transition period. I came out of school. Digital editing was my marketable skill. And I was able to freelance edit. And then on the side, I would, I would build up and part-time teach other people how to,

how to digital edit. And then I would take that money and I would go make these little movies. And in the meantime, like I started, there was a topic that I really wanted. Like my second feature film was about, was this experimental documentary about the relationship between women and their body hair. So you can see the kind of stuff I was futzing around with. And my thesis film was looking at different levels of consciousness. But finally, there was this one piece that I wanted to make. This is what I'm trying to get at.

There was a topic I wanted to actually have an audience. I wanted people to see it. And I wanted them to get it. And I wanted it to be accessible. And that was kind of a bridge for me. Right. So it wasn't like I got to make a living, but it was more about refining your art to a bigger audience. Because when you're doing real experimental art, whether it's theater or film or whatever, and you really start to talk to people

who are teaching, you realize like, well, if I don't make the textbooks or the magazines, there's really no future in this at all, that it's such a small community. Yeah, and that was okay with me. Like, I really, it wasn't like, oh, I have to be Bill Viola and get big gallery shows. Right. I just wanted to be true to myself as an artist. Right, okay.

And make stuff that nobody else could make and to explore territory that was really interesting to me. But it wasn't until, and I almost had to kind of give myself permission to make work that would reach people. Again, it was like a selling out thing. Oh, God, this is the worst. It's like every creative person does that to themselves. The self-sabotage. Well, I don't know if it's self-sabotage.

Well, it's not in my comfort zone. I have to be obscure. It's an integrity thing. Integrity, yeah. It's sort of like the idea when you're younger is that you don't want to take the easy way. But as you realize, as you get older, that mainstream, there's nothing easy about it. But serving yourself was more important, even if you were fucking your life up. Right.

And I was happy to, I mean, I temped and was a personal secretary or whatever up, up until throughout my twenties and said, okay, at 30, I can't do that anymore. And really like made it, you know, but the portal in was about body hair. That was your, that was your one that I wanted people to see was a couple of few films later. It was, but that's when he obviously started experimenting with, with, um body issues and more feminine, if not feminist-driven stuff. Yeah. Identifying that way. I was pretty feminist. I mean, it was definitely about trying to dismantle, showing the construction of gender. Like, basically sort of pointing at how much effort goes into making these smooth veneers of a feminine image on, you know, in a fashion magazine or whatever. Okay. Yeah.

Oh, that just seems like that's so womanly. Actually, it takes a fuck of a lot of work to make it look like that, you know? And that's accessible. Yeah. Well, that's true. Yeah. But the movie wasn't because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. So it looks okay.

And the interviews are great. But like the sound quality is shitty. I mean, I was just like, really just sort of trying stuff out so um but the film that i really wanted like i i wanted it to be on that pov series on pbs yeah have you ever watched documentaries on that series but um i saw a bunch i was inspired by that and then i i had this movie that i wanted to make about miscarriage because i was trying to get pregnant for years and years and then had a miscarriage on the way to that in that journey. And, and I felt so like, what is it blindsided? I didn't feel like, by the miscarriage, I felt I'd been so hard to get pregnant that I really thought once I was pregnant, I felt like, oh, I'm in a state of grace. Like, this is amazing. This is magical.

And then 20 weeks down the line, because it was a late miscarriage too, you know, I was cramping up and it's like, well, I mean, that's miscarriages for other people. It's not for me. You know, this is a special pregnancy. You don't understand. Like I earned this pregnancy. So I was really, really, really, yeah, blindsided by it. And really just, it wasn't even in my, and and then once i had one all these people came out of the work it turned out i knew tons of people who had had miscarriage and i had no i had no idea

and it's like a secret society you know the secret sisterhood and so many people either made you feel crazy by not acknowledging it at all even though they had just days before been saying how's the baby you know whatever and then they didn't even acknowledge it because they were so uncomfortable with it it's like when your father dies, people know to send you flowers. Like there's a way to deal with it. But people don't know what to say to someone who's had a miscarriage. And so they either say terrible things. Oh, I was really devastated.

It was really hard. And I know not everybody is. But for me, you know, I'd been trying to get pregnant so hard and it was awful. And the best thing anybody ever said to me was i'm sorry you lost your baby and that's all i needed to hear right but people would be like oh it was you know you probably you wouldn't have wanted to have a baby with a problem or whatever just like really insensitive things you know it's god way god's way of whatever i don't know just well that's how people protect themselves from um just uncomfortable yeah and shouldering what they

should be able to like you know a lot of times you just have to let somebody feel. I know. It's hard for people. So I wanted to kind of, you know, I wanted to explore that and help people feel not so alone who've gone through it and also to educate people. And this was a full-length documentary? No, it was only, it was going to be a half hour because POV showed half hour. So I made it specifically for that.

But it was really the first time I ever thought about an audience and who am I trying to talk to? And can I stay? And the whole, it was, I interviewed people just audio. And then I made this beautiful visual landscapes or poetic. Oh, okay. So it wasn't actually filmed interviews? Right. And so that was kind of my way of saying, yeah, you're still having integrity with your visual aesthetic.

And it was like a radio documentary. This is almost accessible, but let's stop it there. Exactly. Don't go too far now. Don't go crazy. If this were a radio show, it would be very accessible, but it's not. It's people talking against some poetic visual stimulation. Exactly. it's people talking against some poetic visual stimulation exactly well the idea was that visual beauty would help them swallow the pill of this you know uncomfortable topic but then that also

speaks to your inability or your desire to connect that you weren't clearly not ready to do visually in the way of letting people talk on the camera well no it hits people on a visceral level because cinematic language can be really you know the associative imagery actually was, and it was a way to get people to open up because they didn't want to talk about this thing unless it was, and it made them feel safer to not be on camera. You know, were you doing acting jobs at this time? No, I think I was pretty much beyond after I went to grad school. Okay. I just was, you know, I think, although I did, I did actually in grads in the middle of grad school. Okay. I just was, you know, I think. Although I did actually in grad school, in the middle of grad school, I went on tour with the Five Lesbian Brothers. And I was like, but I'm not a lesbian.

And they were like, you're an honorary lesbian. I was so sweet of them. So I did do a little. I'm still doing a little trickle here and there. I would do, you know, my friend Madeline Olnek, who now is a filmmaker as well, was writing plays. And I would occasionally do something with her but um yeah i wasn't pursuing it and auditioning and stuff that was all left in the dust and the thing that was so beautiful when i made my first feature i edited a couple features when we moved back to seattle i

was hired as an editor and that that was when when i edited my first feature um and you're just hired outpatient i was just hired that was your marketable skill it was my marketable skill and because i was in a smaller market i didn't have to go through years of being an assistant editor or something you know i just and i that it sort of that experience taught me cinematic storytelling you know narratively that's how you learned and i was like oh i think i'm ready to do this and i realized that all of this what it seemed like a hairpin turn before being an actor and putting all my effort into acting and then all of a sudden I'm dropping that and being a photographer it was like why who I'm so fickle you know and now I was like oh it was all adds up and the editing and oh you know trained yourself perfectly for exactly what you wanted to do

exactly it was like a 20-year film school you know but then that allowed me, because I didn't go to film school, and I wasn't told, this is how you make a movie. When I got on the set of my first feature, which I had done the way you're supposed to do it, you write the script, you find the people. Which movie? It was called We Go Way Back. It's going to be out finally this fall.

It was never released? No, sort of almost released. It won Slamdance and got Best Cinematography Award 2006. And now it's going to be released. Shot on 35. How do you feel about that? So happy. Yeah, it'll be almost the 10-year.

You like the movie still? Oh, yeah. And there's still friends of mine who say, I think it's still my mom. I mean, it's my mom, but that's still her favorite. Well, that's good. She's your friend. She's my friend. She's my buddy.

Well, I mean, it's my mom, but that's still her favorite. Well, that's good. She's your friend. She's my friend. Yeah. She's my buddy. But yeah, when I was making that movie, it became all of a sudden about, it was my first time on a set. So two things happened.

I became, just fell in love with the collaborative aspect of it. And I'm a total control freak. So it was terrifying, but it was also really liberating, you know, and to see, oh my God, it was beautiful. And so I knew I really wanted to make art with other people and in relationship with other people. But it was so hard on the actors who I had like coddled and took in care of, you know, really took care of and brought the best out of in the audition process.

It was just me and them in a room with like one little video camera. And then on set, you know, we had this huge hulking 35 millimeter camera and smoke machines and all these bodies. And they were just like, ah, you know, and the whole thing all of a sudden. And I was like, oh, my God, this is – because it was my first time making a movie on set. I'd been on the post side of things, so I never – and it was like the way that – the traditional way to make movies is putting up obstacle after obstacle in front of the most important work on the set which is the actor right because if the actor no matter how gorgeously lit it is if the acting doesn't resonate doesn't feel real you know not gonna work it's not gonna work yeah and so that and i so then i took a cue you know from dogma 95 from the french new wave whatever and then my second film you know i just

ejected everybody from the set and it was just me and my and my buddy dp ben holding cameras yeah we and i was like flies in the wall i developed those those characters for the people this is in the second movie yeah my effortless brilliance and we were in a cabin in the woods you know and i'm basically i wanted to feel like a documentary i wanted to feel so real you know i don't want it to feel written did you get it all improvised and i got it and it got into it went to all i wanted to do was get into south by southwest it was in the it was in the you know, I don't want it to feel written. Did you get it? All improvised. And I got it and it got into, it went to, all I wanted to do was get into South by Southwest. It was in the, it was in the, you know,

narrative competition, dramatic competition. And IFC bought it. I was like, what? You're kidding. Okay. And then my next movie, which was Hump Day, I knew, okay, I can make a movie this way. And what do I want to do with this one?

And it was, I wanted the tightness of the i wanted the momentum narrative momentum and the tight editing that puffy chair had the duplass movie uh duplass brothers movie puffy chair and i wanted it to be yeah i wanted to have more of a plot driven um when now if i recall correctly in that movie, these guys were going to have sex. Indeed. But they didn't. Yeah. Spoiler alert.

Oh, sorry. No, it's all right. It's been out forever. Why didn't they? Because they were truly straight. And here's what happened. We shot that movie in order. And we all agreed that we would only attempt to make this movie

and we would only put it out, I would only put it out in the world. Explain the premise again. Well, the premise is that these two guys who really bonded in college and were like the same wild, nutty, whatever. Mushroom trips and whatever, breaking into the zoo and just all kinds of weird

stuff. And they were going to go on this motorcycle trip together and then one breaking into the zoo and just all kinds of weird stuff. And they were going to go on this motorcycle trip together and then one of them bags out and kind of goes into this, he becomes completely domesticated. So Mark Duplass' character has a house and a wife and they're trying to get pregnant. And meanwhile, his buddy, Josh Leonard's character,

has just continued, he's a nomad, he's an artist, he's traveling the world, he's searching, he's searching. So they have two totally different trajectories. And then it's about 10 years later when the artist, nomadic artist shows up on the doorstep of the domesticated dude. And they immediately engender this, like what happens for Mark's character is basically, oh shit,

you know, he takes stack of stock of who he is. You know, I'm really interested in that sense of like, who do we imagine that we are? And then when you have those moments of like, who he is you know i'm really interested in that sense of like who do we imagine that we are and then when you have those moments of like who were we yeah who am i really now shit because he sees what he sees himself through the lens of his friend you know oh i'm in the doorway i'm standing in the doorway of this like nice house with coffee table books on my coffee table and you know on my white there's literally a white pecked fence out front. And so if he freaks out, he's like, no, no, no, I'm not that guy inside.

I'm still this wild, crazy dude and I'm up for anything. And they engender this sense of competition in each other, like ridiculous, kind of out-duding each other. And so ultimately it ends up that, yeah, they end up trying to out-dude each other by doing each other. But, you know, or daring each other to do each other. So they go to this crazy party. A day later, they're at this party in this artist commune, and all the people there are going to make movies for this local porn festival that is real that Dan Savage founded called Hump. And the idea of Hump is that you're making alternative stuff you're doing you're not just making straight porn you're right you're playing around with the

form and having fun with it and and so um or doing something avant-garde or whatever and so here's josh leonard's characters this artist and he's like well i'm gonna do that you know and they're like oh yeah what are you gonna do that's gonna actually be worth you know putting into a festival like this and they come up with the most out there idea they can come up with, which is two straight dudes having sex. Right. And they're, you know, they're drunk and they're high and whatever. And so the next, so the whole rest of the movie is just this, this.

Moving towards that. Well, it's moving towards the fallout of having agreed to the dare, you know, basically daring each other that first night. And they try and let each other off the hook the next day. But neither of them wants to be let off the hook because they're like hey they're competing i'm cool i'm cool enough to do this but you're the one i think you're trying to get out of this one's like i'm not trying to get out of this and so it's just ridiculous because it's not they want i don't want to do it it's like both of them are terrified to do it so it's

it's uh right i remember that and then we shot the whole thing in order and and i had the whole thing outlined but except for what would happen in the hotel room. And the idea was that we would get there, and then I said, okay, you guys really know who these dudes are, and I'm going to entrust you to really honestly enact this scene the way it would really play out. So really weird sidebar that there was a big French production company that bought the rights and made a remake of it. It's like a $5 million remake of my tiny micro-budget movie. Is it out yet? It's not out here because it bombed there and they never cleared the rights for music to do it.

Did you see it? But we were able to get a French version of it and show it on a DVD, a special DVD player or whatever for like 50 people or whatever. And side by side. So we showed mine and then theirs. And I mean, it's fascinating. It's so fascinating. Wow, that's kind of interesting.

Charlotte Gainsbourg is in it. And it's crazy. Was it good? I prefer mine. But it's definitely, it's fascinating. I noticed that there is a class i don't know if it's a class but you know your community and your way of life and the and the way of lives of the people that you're familiar with are in your movies it's a very it's i notice it as being sort of specific um because i noticed it in jill's movie in afternoon delight

that you guys know the life you live that the type of people that are in your movies are people you would know and have dinner with but But it is sort of specific. And I mean, I'm in that world, too. But did you ever notice that, though? Like, a lot of people don't live like us. Like, you know. Yeah. Like, even, like, it's just, there was something about even Ellen Page, you know, making muffins

or whatever she was pulling out of cupcake tin. There is sort of an effort to authenticity that our generation seems to have. Yeah. You know, there's a book called Reality Hunger that is about that and about this hunger that people have to see authenticity. And for me, I mean, it just... I've seen so many films.

I mean, you take the wife character in Humpty. Even though she doesn't get nearly as much screen time as the guys, I wanted her to feel as fully, it's really important to me that she be as fully sort of fleshed out and three-dimensional as the guys. Because how many cardboard cutout wife, you know, whether Harpy or the whore with the heart of gold. You know, whether a harpy or the whore with a heart of gold. Or I remember we saw the, not to dump on it, but when we saw Hangover and Ed Helms is getting screamed at by his horrible fiance. And my husband leans over to me and says, I think she's supposed to be the bitch. And I was like, really?

You know, I mean, it's like, hello, you know, give me a break. And so that is, in general, incredibly important to me, no matter what, if I'm using a script, or I'm using, you know, partially scripted and partly improvised, or it's all improvised, or you have people who like really need the text as the spine of their performance, which many great actors are like that. They're not writers, they're actors, whatever it is that the method is, I always want it to feel like flesh and blood human beings on the screen that are. And that's because that's the only way that it really resonates with me. Do you think you could bring what you do with actors to a period piece or to do you have plans to sort of challenge yourself on those?

I'm attached to actually a period piece that HBO. I'm not a creator, but they came to me and asked if I would direct a miniseries that has Anna Paquin and Jack Black. And that was announced a few months ago. So I can talk about that. But, and I don't know when that's going to happen. But one of the reasons it was, yeah, I was really intrigued, you know, to see, to explore that territory.

And like, I just, I actually am going to do a This American Life Story. It's not a, it's not a period piece. Well, it's a little, it's a few years ago.'m gonna do a this american life story it's not a it's not a um period piece well it's a little it's a few years ago it's based on a real life story one of their podcasts that one of their um episodes that was very popular called the mysterious incredible case of the pi moms and uh amazing crazy story that's like a comedy caper right reminded me a little bit of dog day afternoon you know and that it's a real story but it's it just goes everywhere anyway very exciting um and i want to you know it's a different genre um and i want to continue to see how i can bring that

same authenticity and honesty right and grounded character. And all the humor needs to come from that grounded, character-based place instead of like, I'm not as interested to do just a broad comedy that doesn't, you know. Those are hard in a way that it's making something that's completely unnatural seem slightly

acceptable. And then you get like Bridesmaids, I thought was brilliant. Well, yeah, it's great because the women were real. Yeah, exactly. And then you get like Bridesmaids, I thought was brilliant. It's great because the women were real. Yeah, exactly. They may have been types. There's the shitting and farting and vomiting scene. But throughout,

you feel for them, you feel with them because you believe in them. Like their relationships. And how old's your son? He's 16 and it's so fun to start showing him. I mean, I've been doing it for a while now, but, you know, it's so great to be able to relive my favorite. Because what we do is watch movies, right? So, you know, going to see Mad Max Fury Road was incredible.

Go see all these, every action movie. Yeah. But, you know, we showed him Jaws recently. It's like, oh like oh yeah you can see jaws like and i hadn't seen jaws since forever equally as terrifying and afterwards he was like he was like yeah it was a good movie can we see a comedy next like who we see simone python and we saw he'd already seen holy grail so we showed him life of brian and i hadn't seen again life of brian forever he's never laughed so hard in his life like continuously he loves to laugh

and i was really impressed. I was like, oh, my God. I saw all kinds of brilliance in it that I hadn't even been aware of before. In Life of Ryan? Yeah. That's great. It's real smart. It's such a great commentary.

And he's deaf, your son? He's deaf, yeah. Totally. Yeah. He had meningitis when he was a year old. We almost lost him. Oh, that's terrifying. Jeez.

It was really, really scary. I don't recommend it but he stuck around and um yeah and uh what is that experience like how is how is that sort of change your perception of reality it changes it changes everything but both the experience of having him be like he was on a he he became basic basically unconscious he was like on a heart breathing heartbeat machine for um like almost a week and then slowly he was able to wean off it and all the in the icu you know and there are nurses who are just angels on earth one year old he was there he was one yeah they said to us as soon as he was came out of it they

were like we were really worried because usually they come out of it faster if they're going to come out of it. Yeah. 10% of the babies that age die. Oh, God, what an awful time. Yeah. And it totally changed our relationship to parenting. You know, like my mom is the first to tell you as an early childhood educator that a certain amount of benign neglect is a really healthy thing, you know, because you give

the kid a space to explore their world and stuff. But in order to teach a deaf child language like you it has to all there's no osmosis they're not going to get anything right overhearing a conversation at the grocery store the zoo they need to like look right at you and get it right and so they're hungry for it yeah yeah and so and whether it's interpreting what conversation is going on over here or you you know, whatever it is. And so it totally changed us as parents because we had to, you know, shift. Learn this thing. Yeah.

But also finding out. Like, here he was, this little tiny, you know, this little tiny body. There's, you know, it started with very dramatically with firefighters in our house all around him turning blue on the floor. I mean, you know, it was very, very dramatic. And then we rushed to the hospital and all that. And then he's there and we have our full-time nurse in the icu it's like a five-star hotel you know you're just like um and then you take a walk around the hospital and you see the two month old next door you know and the baby's this big and then you see the parents uh in the

cafeteria and you realize and you just you're aware that babies die kids die it's it's crazy like it never it's something that you really can't imagine because it's so unimaginable it's so wrong yeah but yeah you know kids die yeah and um and so just to know that you know i mean i still to this day it's years and years and years later and i still i go and look at him sleeping and just like i'm so glad you're here man i i can't even tell you and i tell i came across this journal the other day we moved houses and so i was like going through all these books and i just opened it here's you know milo's hospital journal it's like oh shit and i like looked up you know i was plunged back into that moment and i was just weeping and weeping you know and I go over and try and explain to him. He's just looking at me like, oh, good, mom.

Really? Anyway, so, yeah. No, it changes a lot for sure. And, you know, just that sense of how mortal we all are. Fragile. Yeah, so fragile. That's crazy. Yeah.

So, okay. Well, I think we're probably done. Oh. Because now I'm like a little choked up. But you worked with Sol White. Never have got to work with her. Oh, you didn't? Oh, I thought you did.

We met each other at Sundance. We were there at the same time. Touchy Feely was there with Afternoon Delight. Fucking love that movie, Afternoon Delight. Fell in love with Catherine Hahn more than I already had been in love with her. She's unbelievable. Yeah. I would love to work with her someday. Um,

and transparent, I think is unbelievable. But, uh, yeah, so we know each other and we're sort of in the same, you know, there's this sort of online women filmmaker,

you know, booster club, which is awesome. Um, same with Ava DuVernay. It's really nice to have. Actually, I was on the jury one year at Sundance and gave her the best directing award for her film, Middle of Nowhere. And had no idea she was a fan.

And so the two of us kind of bonded because I was so excited to give it to her and she was so excited to get it from me. And it was like, ah. But yeah, there's she's, yeah, yeah. There's an amazing community out there. Well, good. Are you okay? Mark. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for letting me do this and for crying. Well, I'm at a weird point and I don't know what's going on with me. It's not hard to make me cry. Oh, yeah.

Well, I'm the same way. Good talking to you. It was really great talking to you, Mark. Thank you so much for having me. It's not hard to make me cry. Good talking to you. It was really great talking to you, Mark. Thank you so much for having me. That was Lynn Shelton and me August 2015. Did you feel it? Did you feel it? Did you feel it?

When she left that day, I called up Brendan McDonald, my producer, and I said, I don't know what just happened, man, but in some, I could see some alternate reality that, you know, I was with her. There is an alternate reality where I'm with that person. I could have been with that person at some other point in time. And that alternate reality became the reality for the past year. After I talked to her on the podcast, you know, I wanted to work with her. She couldn't do the first season of Marin, but she came in on board on the final season of Marin and did a couple episodes.

And then by coincidence, we were on Glow together and we'd constantly talk. We always engaged. I lit her up. She lit me up. And I loved talking to her. I loved everything about her. So good at everything.

She was so good. She could fucking sing, you guys. I mean, we used to sit and play occasionally. I get a little shy, but we were finally breaking the kind of hang out and sing songs, ice. And she had a voice. She would sing every day in the bathtub.

Every day she could sing. God, she could sing. And she created films that were so intimate and so personal. And so she's so acutely sensitive to who people are and how to get who they are out of them. And I'm not saying that just because I'm projecting. It's true. So we worked together on Glow. And then I asked her to direct my comedy special, Too Real.

And then she wanted to make a movie with me, but we never got around to finishing it. So she created Sword of Trust with Michael O'Brien. And I was in that movie. And we do a scene together in that movie, which is amazing. And then she did my last special that's on now, End Times Fun. But I got to be honest with you guys going over. I can't get certain things out of my mind. Sadly,

the good things are there, but the bad things are just too close right now. And I don't even know if I should be out in public talking, but this is what I do. And this is where I'm at. And there's no right or wrong with grief. It comes in waves.

I just know that this person has touched so many lives. That Lynn Shelton is so important, so inspirational, and she was so kind and so charismatic and full of joy and positivity. And shouldn't everyone be so lucky to make that kind of impact on so many people, so many lives?

So many people loved her for so many different reasons. Strong woman role model but just also just you know basically a decent person a good person to all people she worked with but she was also you know focused in which she wanted something she figured out how to get it or to make it work creatively. But again, the outpouring of love and support for me, for her family has been powerful. powerful and uh if there's anything she taught me really is that people do love me that she loved me and that you know there's nothing i can do about that and and and i realized well i i was learning how to accept it and i'm accepting it now i accepted it from her and i loved her and i'm happy you all loved her and so many people have such a longer history and such different memories,

and I hope you're leaning on those and that they're all good and that if you don't know her that well, you get familiar with her work. But the love coming at me, it's helping me. I've never felt grief like this or this bad. And my brother came immediately out here and I had to say yes, even though I was like, oh no, is this how this is going to go? And then my brother come over and I'm going to get COVID on top of this. And my brother might have it. I'm like, you know what? I'm going to sit here alone with my fucking sick cat. Lynn Shelton was an amazing person, an amazing artist, powerful woman,

powerful, charismatic, joyful presence in the world, and she's gone. It's a horrendous loss for a lot of people. My heart goes out to her family and to her friends and anybody who knew her. And I guess we'll get through this. I'll tell you something. You know, Lynn was already separated from her husband, and I was still struggling with feelings, and I was trying to keep my feelings in

I was still seeing somebody and we couldn't really begin anything but I had these feelings and I'm very good at not acting on feelings to be honest with you I can shut them down I can shut them down but I could not shut them down and and the thought of of her starting some other part of her life without me now that she could which is too much for me to handle

and I had to make a choice. And I said this to her. I said, you know, if I don't try to honor my feelings for you, I'll regret it for the rest of my life. And I did what was necessary to try to do that. And it was the greatest decision I ever made. And I don't have any regrets about it. I'm sorry other people got hurt. But now, whatever she gave me, it's going to stick. Now, whatever she gave me, it's going to stick.

And it'll elevate me for the rest of my life once I get past this horrendous loss. I know that. She liked my guitar playing, among other things. She used a lot of little riffs I do at the end of the show for the soundtrack of Sword of Trust. And she encouraged me to compose a piece, a blues piece, which I did with Tal Wilkenfeld and had a bunch of pro studio guys record it. And Lynn was in the booth and I was just doing the guitar

and looking at her watching me I was nervous to be playing with Doyle Bramhall who was there too but this is how we're going to go out today joyously this will take flight I will never forget

all the beautiful things this is new boots Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm out.