WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Remembering Michael K. Williams

Episode Date: September 7, 2021

Marc revisits his conversation from earlier this year with actor Michael K. Williams. Michael died at age 54 on September 6, 2021. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey, people. I talked to Michael K. Williams on Wednesday, February 10th of. I was a tremendous fan of his work. And we had an amazing conversation. It was on fire. So alive. Just lit up, that guy was, with life. He was found dead in his Brooklyn apartment on Monday, September 6th. He was 54 years old. The cause of death has not been released, and there's no point in speculating on how he died. The information will come out eventually.

The conversation I had with Michael, we had because he was promoting the film Body Brokers, which is about drug treatment fraud. And in general, it's about drug addiction. I had talked to Melissa Leo, who was also in the film. I later talked to the director of the film. And we don't always do that, book many people on a particular film. But I wanted to talk to Michael because he was great. A great actor. A truly gifted, unique person. And we got along incredibly well.

It was intense because we talked openly about our common history with addiction. And Michael talked about the times he relapsed. And if you listen to the conversation, you'll hear him make it very clear when he says, and I'll quote it only because you'll hear it, relapse is a part of my story, but I'm living good today.

All we've got is today. This is not in contradiction with anything that happened to him, no matter how it happened. Someone who deals with the disease of addiction only has today. Tomorrow is a whole new set of challenges. And that was a great, great day talking with that man. So this conversation is a snapshot of Michael K. Williams' life. One day. And it was a good day. And this was a good talk. And this was a good talk.

Rest in peace, man. Where are you at right now? I'm in New York, man. Brooklyn. BK. Is the snow still there? Yeah, you know. There's some snow on the ground.

It's winter, so we do here. You know what I mean? I know. I lived there for a long time. I lived on the Lower East Side and over on 16th Street. I got no seasons out here. Are you in Cali now? I'm in California and it's just a little chilly. That's our winter. It's a little chilly.

Not too bad. There's some part about having nothing to do that's not that terrible. Man, come on with it. Talk that talk. I mean, I know it's like it gets a little crazy, but on another level, it's like, hey a little crazy but on another level it's like hey if nobody else is doing anything fuck it i'm okay you're gonna have to be what's because the alternative sucks you know i mean you have to be okay man and get some type of grounding did you get it or no you know i got a little a little scare um someone in my family they went down they had to be hospitalized and i was in contact with them um so you know um i quarantined uh yeah for the 14 days yeah and you know i there

was a point where you know i was like i don't smell nothing and you know and the taste got a little a little um you know like damn i you know because i cook right so i made a pot of curry yeah i was like damn now i know i could taste my curry and i was like okay maybe i am so i have no some symptoms but no grace of god man i didn't have to be hospitalized no temperatures no problems breathing um it's when i just quarantined yeah so but so you you you did you tested you got it you got it and you just got a minor yes oh yeah you got it. You got it. And you just got a minor. Yes. Yes, sir. Yeah, you got lucky.

It's fucking crazy, man. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know, I consider myself blessed today, man. You know, one, I got good genes. You know, I came from really good genes physically. And, you know, over the summer, man, you know, like you spoke about with the, with everybody else ain't doing nothing. So I had to find something to do because, um,

nothing for me is not an option. You know, I don't mind double workshop. I'm not dude. So, uh, you know, I found, uh, I found physical fitness this summer, but not for the sake of muscles. You know, I got real, got real familiar with cardio and calisthenics and stretching and breathing simple shit and i truly believe man that because um i put that as in my program and my daily routine that it gave me a leg to stand on to fight that motherfucker back a little bit that that shit and it didn't knock me down i mean i'm doctor. That's just my little take on it. That's what I chose to believe, that we are so

conditioned to run from this thing that I think sometimes we need to also remember that we have everything in our bodies to at least arm it to fight back. We got a gun in our body. It's called an immune system. If we put some bullets in that motherfucker,

we might just slay the giant. We don't know until we fight back. So that's where I'm at with it. Hold on one second. Don't hang up. Hold on one second. I'm not going to hang up. I'm having my little lunch on the stove.

I smoked this and missed 10 o'clock. So what's up, man? Talk to me, Mark. Well, yeah, I mean, I've been doing that too. You do, do you meditate? Yeah, yeah. Not as much as I used to. I'm one of those people like, damn, you know, meditating is so hard.

I'm like, damn, Mike, you mean sitting down, not saying shit, turning up your brain, closing your eyes. That's hard? Like, really? You got to do it first thing thing it's only hard if you've been doing other shit if you had a bunch of coffee you've already eaten you know what i mean well whatever you you've already on the computer and then all of a sudden i gotta sit down and shut it off right when you get out of bed just do it that's what i've been doing i just started a

couple months ago you know what i received that for the thank you that's the trick because you know i wait till i i you know by the time i remember to do it i've already done a few things in the morning yeah and your brain is on fire yeah it can't it's yeah that's what the trick do it first thing in the morning before my feet even leave the bed right i got the mat on the floor i got you know like i just see it on the floor and i get up and i do a yoga a little bit and then i sit with the the guy the english guy on the app the headspace app and he he talks me through it he's annoying but you know talks me through it you know what i'm gonna take that suggestion bro i'm like the next time i see you i'm gonna be like thank you and this about it

i promise you gave me two things one do it first thing in the morning and i got a yoga mat here that i never used but if i lay it out in my room in my bedroom by my bed and if i if i see it it'll draw my memory that's a great that's a great idea man i'm gonna try that shit bro yeah just get up and do it like i also you know i'm a i'm a big fan and i uh i watched the new movie the body brokers and uh i you know look i'm a sober dude you know and i like i know that world And I watched the new movie, The Body Brokers. And, you know, look, I'm a sober dude, you know, and I like I know that world a little bit. And then as it reveals itself, it's sort of like it's insane and heartbreaking and informative. I really like the movie.

And I thought that you did a great job with it, man. Oh, man man thank you you know and um for you know first of all this was it was this was a passion project for me because um i share your story you know i'm in the club as well too really yeah yeah yes sir yes sir you know and um you know anybody that that's heard me speak before i'm not i'm not shy about it you know relapse the part of my story and you know but i'm living. You know, I guess all we got is today. But this film, you know, jails, drugs, jails, institutions. Right. Yeah. Right. So, yeah, I've had my fair share of institutions. You know, thank God I haven't gone to jail yet. And obviously I'm still here.

But I've had my fair share with institutions. And, you know, I feel what you said was this film, the narrative of this film was extremely disturbing. Right. Extremely disturbing. And I was like, I almost like, well, like, what do we do with that? Like, that's, are you kidding me? So when you first read the script by John Swab,

is that his name? Yeah, John Swab, man. Great guy. He's the writer and the director. Yeah, because I know guys that work in that industry. But my buddy Mike, he came over yesterday to talk a little bit because I told him about the movie. And he works in rehabs. And he had to quit two jobs because they were corrupt and he didn't feel comfortable.

because they were corrupt and he didn't feel comfortable right so my my thing was you know when you read that script as a sober guy you know you realize you must have realized like you know i gotta do this people have to know this right but then the character too like that character he's not only a guy who's not quite sober and playing that part but this it's a movie about people rationalizing you know compartmentalizing things that makes them kind of evil right yes you hit it right on the head you know um you know as we all as you and i we both know um yeah being sober doesn't take away the craziness you know there's a lot of crazy motherfuckers in this program, you know, me included. I call them demons in exile. There you go.

You know what I'm saying? And, you know, and to me, Wood was a perfect example of that. Yeah. You know, you know. I'm sober, but I can still do cocaine. You know, but even I'm sober, but I still do cocaine you know but and even i'm sober but i can still you know use people right you know i'm selling drugs yeah you know that was even more profound you know because for me this film it spoke about the insanity and like people think that

well i assume that sometimes people think that drugs are the problem drugs are the symptom of a prop of the problem you you know we you know once we put the drugs down that's when the work begins we got to clean up this house all this garbage right and so because it manifests in other ways in our life poor poor decision-making, you know, and poor characteristic traits, right? And so Wood was a perfect example and an opportunity for me to show that side of what a recovering addict looks like. It's not all roses. And once you put the drug down, it's happily ever after and life is going to be great. No, there's a lot of stinking thinking that we need to get rid of and bad,

bad habits and bad thought processes. And what is the example of that? But I'll tell you the redeeming moment for me with wood. In the car. Yes. The car scene. And when he apologized, he apologized, he made amends, man. And that was, that was that redeeming quality in him that made me fall in love with the character on a whole nother level. That that acting to where, you know, you drop into the heart of that guy that's actually tormented and not the guy that justifies his behavior. That was a great turn there. And you can feel like those choices, man.

And you can feel like those choices, man. Man, you know, and I just want to take the time, this time to also say, you know, I wasn't in that scene alone, obviously. Man, I just got to tell you, Jack Kilmer, what he bought, the honesty, the vulnerability that he bought to that character, man. Him and Alice,

they are, they are like, I'm obsessed with them. I can't take my eyes off of them, man, in this film, but with, but with Jack bought in that, in that, in that scene, in that car, you know, that level of loyalty that he had, that the way he looked up, it was, he bought so much to the, to the dynamic, man. I couldn't have, I couldn't have reached where I needed to be. had it not been for what he brought to the table. That's interesting. Yeah, he was great.

And it was definitely that contrast of that moment where he says, people have been talking to me like that my whole life. Come on, bro. Come on, bro. Validation. He saw wood. It was like, that was like a meeting in the car right there. Right. Man, that scene, it meant a lot to me.

And he brought so much to it, bro. Him with his instrument, he brought so much to the character. He made it very easy for me. Very easy. Yeah, man. Well, I got a question because I get asked it too. Because when I did the show Glow, my character does blow, you know? easy for me yeah very easy yeah man well i got a question because i get asked it too because when i was when i did the show glow my character does blow you know and i've been sober you know

22 years something and people always ask me like was that hard and i'm like i don't know i don't know i didn't even think about it what was it like for you to be around drugs you know um in the film uh um body brokers ironically uh wood didn't trigger me because of the decision that i made as to where he was in his recovery when he was sniffing that coke at that pool party yeah. I'll tell you who did trip me the fuck up was Freddie Knight on the night of when he was sniffing dope and the reasons why

the escapism that was very familiar to my journey to my struggle with this this disease man when you were when you were in jail yes it's called the night of and yeah no i saw it name was yeah yeah freddie freddie knight triggered the hell out of me man he woke up he was rubbing that genie bottle like a mother i was like no no you're back in it yeah know, I don't know.

Wood, that night, you know, I believed Wood when he said, man, yeah, you know, you know, it was more about, you know, the chicks being in the moment. I don't think that he was in a relapsed state of mind. Although, you know, technically he did get high. Right. I don't think that it was that. I think he was just in the moment. Because he said it, you know, these dumb chicks

bought this shit over here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, whatever. Freddie was in a different space. You know, I don't know how to do drugs recreation just for the moment. I know how to numb the pain. Right. He did it to cope. Yeah, cope. That's. He did it to cope.

Yeah, cope. That's what I did it for. And that tripped me up. Right, man. So, like, now, when did you start? Where do you think it started with you? I mean, where'd you grow up? I grew up in Brooklyn, man.

I grew up in East Flatbush, Brooklyn, in a little project called the Vanderveer, the Vanderveer States. And, you know, like I said, it ain't about the the drug the drug is the symptom of the problem but i started coping very early and um you know i became an actor very early i would say by age nine i was completely addicted to fantasy like nothing about my life that i want you know so, so. Like how did that manifest itself? Like what kind of fantasies, what were you into? I mean, you know, being something I wasn't. You know, like for instance, my community, you know,

is a Western and Caribbean community heavily that, you know, that's, you know, we call the Notion Avenue Little Haiti. Is that where your folks are from? No, my mother's from the Bahamas. And my father's from the South. So you had half of the community that was West Indian, Caribbean, and then you had the other half that was Black American. And there was a clash of cultures, like in the mid to late 70s to the 80s.

And you had to pick one. You were either a lazy welfare recipient yankee or you were a high high water wearing banana boat driving coconut yeah those were your options and my mother being from the caribbean and my father being from the south you know um and me having a huge need to fit in yeah right and it's low self-esteem i i you know i started like you know um i lost my identity very quickly very young trying to fit in to to be to be like to be accepted to go under the radar so nobody would i didn't want to ever be singled out. And so, you know, the disconnect from getting to know who Michael was, that started at a very early age. And the ability to chameleon myself to fit whatever I thought you needed to see to get

in with you, that also started very early. So that's what I mean when I say I got addicted to fantasy very quick. Well, you get addicted to like I have that problem too like you know by the end of this conversation I'll probably be talking exactly like you um I just have that thing where I feel like I'm a whole person but you know when I get around stronger personalities you just kind of like I'll just live in that guy's skin for a while. Welcome to my, and of course I became an actor, right? Like great, great job for someone like me, but you know, I nearly, you know, like drove myself crazy, man. But, um, you know, um, you know,

again, wood was an opportunity to, to explore all those different things, you know, because I believe in some form or fashion, we're all addicts, you know. Yeah. The economy of this country is built on it. Thank you. It requires us. It requires us, which is what the film talks about. Yeah.

It manifests in food uh food disorders sexual disorders shopping disorders they still you know you're being being codependent you know being emotionally manipulative that shit seeps out in so many different you just have to risk human personality that's my daily schedule you just read off yeah i would love to hear you speak one day bro real talk so you like to cook you're cooking back there did you grow up like because i i always assume that you know people from the caribbean i i always think about food you know like it like the so it must've been, at least you had a, an interesting confluence of culture there in the food department, huh?

Absolutely. You know, and I'm, I'm a foodie, you know, uh, I don't eat to live. I live to, uh, I live to eat. You feel me? Um, I just, uh, I love everything about food, not just the eating process. I love the preparation. Like, you know, in my mind, Rachel Ray is like one of my best fucking friends. You know, I'll sit here and I'll watch a segment and, you know, the way she, the way, you know, and butter. Yeah. Oh, look at that. Yeah.

It makes my mouth water when she cooks. I share her passion for food. It's like, It's bananas. And then what I'll do is I'll challenge myself. I won't go to the website and look at the recipe. I can look at what she's doing that day. I know the basics. She has a basic template that she works from, garlic, olive oil, a little salt and pepper.

So we got the same foundation and I just kind of, you know, you know, I may do, I may put a little twist on it, or change something up here. I may even fuck it up. Who knows? But I just love, I love the prepping of food. I love, you know, trying new things. And Lord, do I love feeding people.

I love when people over, man, let's break bread, man. My people, my family, my friends. Right. And then you serve everybody. And then you I love when I call people over, man, let's break bread. Man, my people, my family, my friends. Right, and then you serve everybody, and then you have that minute where you're like, so? So how good am I? I'm great, right? It's great, right? Yeah.

I did that. I did that. Pretty fucking good, right? I just love to see people eat man me too i'm like i do i and also it's a great way to occupy the time man i've been smoking fish i've been like i'm a jew so i've been trying to figure out how to smoke the fish like the old jews and i got this smoker out there so i'm fucking prepping i'm brining i'm smoking fish yesterday i spent an hour trying to figure out how to make perfect

baba ganoush and then like you know you you spend like three hours doing this shit like you know smoking fish takes hours and then i'll eat it in 30 seconds like i don't give a fuck i'll put i'll put hours into prep and then i'll just plow through it if i'm alone and i make something i'll eat it oh my god you 25 seconds. You're two for two. The yoga mat and doing meditating in the morning. I'm going to find out how to smoke some fucking fish. You got a smoker? No, I'm going to get one.

I've heard about this process before. I'm going to get the smoker and I'm going to go to air fryer. Those are two things I want to get. Oh, yeah. But the smoker. Oh, yeah. I heard about the air fryer. Everyone's talking about the air fryer.

Yeah, but the smoker. The smoker. Yeah, they gave it to me. The Traeger grill. They gave me the smoker, the wood pellets. You got a yard to put it in? Yeah, I got a little outdoor space. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, throw it up there. Yeah, I mean, I've been smoking the fish. I love to cook, and i'll do it by myself keeps me sane it's the same thing you were talking about with the you know i just got to be careful like i got like if i get off on like i made a pie like i made like if i eat if i if i fucking make a pie dude i'm fucked'm fucked for weeks. You know what I mean? I'm making cakes. Talking about putting the pie in the pie hole, huh? Yeah.

Yeah, I stay away from it. Yeah, my family, we were more pecan pie. Oh, shit. Pecan pie and sweet potato. Have you ever made that? Never, but I will eat about three pies by myself. I promise you that. Pecan.

Pecan. It's the best. Or sweet potato. Yeah, yeah. I'll put that in front of me. I eat sweet potatoes all the time. I just have them for a snack. That's what I do.

And I drink a pot of coffee. This is how I manage my addiction, Mike. If there's ever a spare minute, I'm thinking about, all right, what can I eat? What do we got? Listen, bro, you ain't hurt nobody. I mean, like I said, I love food. You know what I eat? What do we got? Ain't nothing. Listen, bro, you ain't hurt nobody. I mean, like I said, I love food,

you know what I mean? And, and, you know, I try to keep it, you know, I'm not a health nut in the sense where, you know, I don't eat this.

I don't eat that. Yeah. I don't care if I want, if I want a good, juicy, greasy cheeseburger, that's what I'm going to eat. You know,

I'm not doing that every day. I'm going to definitely make sure I use it in my, in my, in my regimen in my regiment but um yeah it's good yeah enjoy yourself try to enjoy the alternative we gotta enjoy life man we gotta enjoy yeah yeah i don't think about the other shit at all anymore so when did you like start really doing the acting i mean when did you start doing it like would you decide it was your life i mean was it one of those things where you're like you got to save your life with something you know uh the wire you know so before the wire um you know i used to be a

background dancer you know mostly house acts you know crystal waters technotronics um things like that you were a dancer yeah man i danced for like seven years man and self-taught yeah i'm a street street dancer you know i actually watched the janet jackson videos that's how i learned how to catch choreography then i started going public and i would try to do the dance and they'd be like you're going the wrong way because i would learn off the freaking tv right that's funny so it's a it's a rachel ray and janet jackson these are the keys to your existence. You're damn right. So around in 1997, 1998, well, my first film I ever did was a film called Bullet.

Tupac Shakur, the late great Tupac Shakur, he saw a picture of Paul O'Rourke, and he saw that I had this scar on my face, and he was like, oh, he told Julian Temple, the director, let's find this guy and audition him. And that was the first thing I'd ever done. The scar got you the job? Basically, yes, it did. What was that fight about that got you that scar?

Real simple, in a couple of sentences. 25th birthday, pissy, drunk, ballroom brawl. Nothing special. Except the fact that I almost lost my life or that day at night but um yeah I've you know there was a situation well I technically I started it you know I was drunk I had the liquid courage in me and I saw a situation with someone that I had known at the time yeah and it had nothing to do with me. And I stuck my nose in someone else's business.

But in my drunk mind, I was being loyal. Like, you know, I'm not going to watch you get jumped. And so I was pumping my chest out due to the alcohol. And I was in that zone. And when that situation de-escalated, those dudes that were were having a confrontation with the person that i knew they turned their attention on me and the rest is history so the second thing that i did was um this movie called mugshot um you know and it was with uh matt mahern from new

york city uh and you know it was a it an independent film, but I went from being just like Tupac's little brother to my second thing was a lead role in an independent film. So, you know, I was starting to get a little, you know, like starting to think this could happen. And then, you know, Dick Wolf, he had all of his projects, you know, New York Undercover, Law and Orders. That was essential for young New york city actors at the time and i started booking those things those things and then um the phone just went dead

1999 rolls around with the dick wolf stuff though were they they did you feel like uh you were being typecast it hell no i just i never you know i know i still to this day don't I don't acknowledge typecast you know um newsflash you know I don't get to assimilate into other cultures very much you know I'm a black man and I tell the black experience right yeah and you know um I'm from the hood yeah and I know for a fact I got I have I have a front seat view with how people end up in the situations that they end up. No one wakes up one morning and says, I got it. I'm going to be a successful crack dealer on the corner. I'm going to be a successful thug that robs people. I'm going to be a successful thing. No one wakes up and says, I'm going to be a successful anything that gets

them in jail. They do that out of a series, out of a desperation and a feeling that they have no other options. Right? And I've watched that happen so many times that people that I call my brothers, my family members, and my community and when I started becoming an actor and people

in Hollywood was looking to me to portray these stories, I immediately wore that as a badge of honor. Right. Because I was like, this is my community. These are my people. I know these people.

I'm going to do everything in my possible to make sure that people who don't know this lifestyle, who don't know this community, will leave from the story feeling empathy and having some sort of compassion and some sort of understanding. Not saying you've got to agree,

but those three things and i made it my responsibility to leave the audience with those three things well that's interesting so so your your point of view was that like you know instead of looking at me as somebody who is pigeonholed by this type of role you you say like yeah but these are real people who i know and this is you you say like yeah but these are real people who i know and this is part of the experience and i'm going to depict it with honesty and authenticity you know and these characters are gonna are gonna be alive this isn't i'm not playing a caricature this isn't a a puppet here you know so you won't so i imagine that when you you look a script, you think in terms of like, how deep is this fucker? Is this a real thing or are you selling this guy short?

I don't have to even wonder. I can read the first 20 pages and know you're bullshitting as a writer. I don't have to even, it's nothing to wonder about. What I go in the script looking for is how do I identify? That's what I go looking for. Okay, Mike, how do you identify with this character? Because I know if you're really saying, you're writing a story about my community,

I'm going to find somewhere along this man's life, I'm going to have a parallel with him. So I go in looking for that. And I can tell you, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about within the first 20 pages. And where'd you learn the craft? Where'd you study the acting?

I studied, well, I was, again, New York City, man. No city like it in the world. And I was blessed to be introduced to the off-Broadway theater world of New York City. My first play that I did was at a theater on the Lower East Side called La Mama. I know that place. Yeah. Ellen Stewart. I was actually, God bless her soul, man. I was the last play that she produced and directed and wrote. I was in that. It was a city opera and it was called Tancredi and Armenia. And it was about the war of the cultures in that part of the world, at least.

And then I studied there for about a year or two. And then I left and went to Harlem. And I studied under the late, great Tunde Samuels. And he worked out of the National Black Theater, as we call it, NBT. And there was a young writer, director. Her name is Judy Shepard King. And she had written this play called Endangered Species. And I got a part in that. And then thirdly, my good friend and brother, Ray Thomas, or a lot to he bought he's from Philadelphia. Shout out to Philly. And he brought

his mentor and his theater company to New York City. Every Saturday, these men would either get on the train or they would pile up in cars and they would come to New York every Saturday and they would teach. And Mel Williams, he's the director of the company, and it's called Theater for a New Generation. Every Saturday, man, we would come and we would have class, either at the Producers Club or any little black box in New York City, man. And we would, from 12 to 3, we would have a theater company, theater class. And then, you know, it would be a 10-week course that he would do. theater company, theater class. And then, you know, it would be a 10 week course that he would do. And then around the fourth or fifth week, he would start giving out, he would, he would break us up into groups, into, into, uh, partners. And he would give us scenes from a classic plays,

like a street car named desire ceremonies and dark old men. He has a, like a litany of classic plays. He would take scenes and he would give He would give us, did the different groups scenes. And at the end of the 10th week, the last two weeks, he put us on stage. We would put up, and he called it, the theater night would be called the night of scenes. And we'd sell tickets and get people to come. And I did that for years, man.

And I took that and took that into the uh to the audition process man in hollywood and i started to book but then like i was saying earlier man the phones went dead like around 99 yeah um i couldn't i couldn't get a gig and so you know my mom god bless her man she she retired and she decided that know, sitting down wasn't for her. And she opened up a daycare in the projects where we live. And by 2001, she was she was blossoming, you know, 70, 70, 70 year old woman with no education, like, like, like, you know, really doing it. And so what the daycare center got popular, it got popular, man. And at her highlight, the kids we kept up, we took them from one to five years old. So when they left us, they went to first grade.

The kids that were leaving our daycare were performing academically on such a high rate. We were the number one in the community in Flatbush. You were teaching? No, no, no, no, no. in the community and flat was coming out of teaching. No, no, no, no, no. You know, after, like I was saying, when I couldn't get, when I start, I stopped booking and at, in 2000, my mom took all of us to the Bahamas where she's from. Cause you know, that was the end of the world. The two K was good coming into the world.

The sky's going to fall. The sky's going to fall. You know? And my mom was like, yo, we're going out i want all my family to be going home and we're gonna rock out and so at the new year's dinner party yeah she goes she said she offered me a job at the daycare because you know i was borrowing money to pay my rent from her you know every freaking month and she said you know you might as well come work for me you know you know i'm paying your rent you might as well earn the money i was like yeah ma you know not a bad idea things could be a lot worse we got a family business in the community. Why not? So I did that for all of, uh, of, of, of, uh, 2000 and, and then, and into 2001,

she gave me a desk and I started, I coined myself her administrative assistant because she old school, she had everything on in leisure books. So know i put it i computerized everything for you know yada yada yada yeah so um she gets give me something to do so so um oh i did that all of 2000 and then all of 2001 and as you know by september um you know 9 11 2001 that happened. And I slipped into a, it was dark. It got real dark for me. You know, I stood in my building and I saw the second plane hit with my naked eye. Like me and my cousin, we watched the buildings drop,

you know, and for like two weeks after that happened, like the wind giving, on any given Sunday, and depending on which way the wind would shift, I could smell the burning flesh still in the air yeah that it was like me a bad bro i was in astoria i watched the same thing in astoria from my roof and you know yeah and then you that metal smell burning smell it lasted for weeks it was also the flesh yeah yeah that's what i i know what burning flesh smells like man i just like this is so anyway neither say i relapsed let's get that out there so um um so you know what was your thing man cocaine man know what I mean? Coke and alcohol. Yeah. So I relapsed, and I struggled for all of 2001.

I mean, for most of 2000, you know, after 9-11. Yeah. On October, I was sitting in my apartment with my cousin and one of my homeboys, man. And, you know, we was getting high, and the setting would be you turn the TV on, but you mute it. And then you blast the music. Get everything going. Yeah, that's how you do it. And then you're talking.

You're talking, too. Yeah, we're talking shit. Yeah, exactly. So I think we're playing chess. You know what I mean? Just to get how I play chess, right? Talk shit. So the TV was on. And i had it on hbo mark and i looked at the screen and it was an episode of

sopranos that i was in so i looked up i was like i had this like out of body experience i was like what the fuck i said and i looked what i was doing. I said, man, there's something wrong with this picture. And so I asked my mom, man. I said, yo, mom, I said, I don't know if I could do this no more. I said, I got this. I said, I feel like I should give this Hollywood shit one

more shot. And she said, what you need? I said, I need you to lend me some money because I got to reinvent my package because I've been off the scene for two years and now they're doing this new thing called a reel you gotta put a reel together and I gotta do new head shots

blah blah blah blah blah so I gotta hire people ma and she said alright she lent me the money and this was in late October early November I did everything and you didn't spend it on drugs. That's good.

Not all of it. Hey, hey, y'all. You're keeping it real, right? Not all of it. But I got what I needed to get done. And then I gave them out. I had a hit list of 10 names of people who I knew in the business that if I had any shot, I could get it

from them. And Queen Latifah, Shaquem Kapoor, Jimmy Roseman, Jackie Brown Carmen. I remember it was 10 names. And I sent out the new package. And I said, you know what? It's Christmas. And they're going to look at it. They're going to see that I'm back on the block. And my phone's going to be ringing off the hook. Give it the second, third week in January. It's going to see that I'm back on the block and my phone's going to be ringing off the hook, give it the second, third week in January, it's going to be major right, here we are February ain't nothing happening, and my mom's

like, where the fuck did you, what did you do with my money, and I was like oh man, so I slipped into a depression man you know, like for real, for real I had to go see a doctor, and he prescribed me, like, Paxil. And I'm sitting there smoking weed and taking Paxil

and wondering why I don't feel better, right? Like, what the fuck? Anyway, that was in February. And then in March, my mother caught me, man. She's like, yo, come downstairs. There's a fax for you. A fax? And I went, and I got the fax.

And you know what it was, it was david simon down yes it was it was actually with alexa fogel and it was the breakdown for omar devon little and that's when i knew this is real this is real like i got this this is it i knew they offered it to you well i had to audition yeah i had to audition but Yeah, I had to audition. But once I got it, I'm saying, you know, I went to her office. You auditioned me. I think three days later she caught me telling me to be on the next Amtrak and report to Baltimore. Like I was on the set for like a week before I even met David. Like I had to like jump right in head first and I never looked back thank God you'd done the research ah yeah right yeah you joke but that's that's um that's for real

yeah I poured a lot of my pain into the character of Obama a lot yeah yeah I mean it's a it's a great character was one of the you know the best characters that whole thing I mean, it's a great character. It was one of the best characters, that whole thing. I mean, I remember, like, I didn't watch it in real time. I watched it all at once. So, like, I watched it a couple years after the fact, but I was in New York and I was doing a radio gig, and I just would watch three or four episodes a day like I was on drugs, man. It was like The Wire was my drug. I would binge.

I would do, like, four or five episodes a day, and I'd feel fucked up after but but your character was like every time omar came on you're like ah fucking omar man you're always happy i'm gonna tell you a secret though you want to know what the best character on that show was hands down yeah it was the city of baltimore yes i promise you could like that city permeates it it i can't you had to be on those streets like you know we shot a lot of location yeah why it wasn't it wasn't a uh uh you know a cushy set type of a gig. We were we was in them streets, bro. And I got to know the people. I got to see the culture. I got to feel the streets. Yeah. You know, and when I tell you that city is one of the most beautiful cities, one of the most beautiful gems in this country. And we don't know it. But Baltimore, the city of Baltimore, is the number one character. The people and the energy and the spirit of that city

is the number one character on the wire. And Simon loves that city. He still lives there. Born and bred, still there. Yeah, I interviewed that guy. He's a smart guy. Yeah, crazy motherfucker. That's my big bro.

Yeah, I thought, thought obviously i'm not alone in thinking that was an amazing uh show but it's just all the performances were deep man you know and and i just work with andre i'm friends with andre uh royal yeah come on man yeah come on man we just did a movie a month ago i know i know what it is i mean if we stay in contact man i know exactly which which parts you're talking about oh my god i can i know what it is i mean if we stay in contact man i know exactly which which parts you're talking about oh my god i can't remember the name but i know two leslie it's called it's the name go yeah but uh but i can't imagine you two getting together that would i would i would have to sit that one out and just watch just to watch you guys talk we've been

talking about that me him and sonia yeah sonia and i have been talking about um developing sonia song who played keema gregs oh okay right yeah us three we're three musketeers and she and i we both have full working on a knowledge that you must know now too andre royal was special yes he different yeah he he he he ain't he ain't he far from regular like we all cute or we all of us is cute but but andre royal was special and like you gotta if you know him then you know i'm talking about i ain't got time to go into why we know this but you you and i know why i say he's special he'll go there man jay different bro he says like you know he says with such vernacular and such effortlessness what most of us are thinking and it's not it's not tacky it's not offensive he just has this way

of spitting that shit that's on all of our minds but none of us have the balls to say and he does it with such a freedom that you just have to you'd be like you just don't like what do you what do you do it's like anyway yeah no he's got there's a there's a like a real kind of honest vulnerability there that he speaks from perfect yes right and and you just got to be like what the fuck you look at you you gotta love him you just gotta love him that's true that's true love him man yeah true You have to love him man Yeah You know Or you hate him

But you ain't gonna like Like him You're either gonna love him Or you're gonna hate him If you hate him You got problems You got fucking problems My dude

So we've been working On a project Yeah That will Highlight Dre man And if I could be a We It's funny you said it

Cause we really Sonya and I We talk about that often We gotta create something For our brother because that's how much we feel he's just that special to us. Yeah, and I think also it's a weird place for him because he should be in everything,

but I don't know how much is coming to him. And I don't know if people really know how to use him because if they did, he'd be working. Oh, come on, man. You think you already know what that is. That's about,

that's another, that's a whole nother conversation that, you know, I'm not going to go down that road right now. Cause you know, I'm tired of waiting for day, you know, I'm at the point now where,

you know, it's time for me to build, build my own table. It's time for us to build our own table. Sure. You know, you can start a production company. That's already done. It's called your own productions. Don. You know. You're going to start a production company? That's already done.

It's called Freedom Productions. Don't peace, free your dome. Freedom Productions. And we're housed in the Navy Yard here in Brooklyn. And yeah, that ship has sailed. You know, and this pandemic has humbled us. Yeah. And it has leveled the playing field massively.

And if it's ever time to shoot your shot, I believe it's now. You know, yeah, you're right. They don't know what to do with it. They barely know what the fuck to do with me. You know what I mean? So, you know, it's time for us to lift each other up. Now, do you ever think about you ever think about theater anymore absolutely absolutely me and my brother the same gentleman that

introduced me to theater uh thomas from philadelphia he and i was talking the other day man and um you know we're working on this idea about a traveling theater like just take it you know yeah that you know we we come with a story and just and travel the idea of traveling theater, like just take it, you know, yeah. You know, we, we come with a story and just, and travel, the idea of traveling theater and taking it to like neighborhoods that normally would not be exposed to a plane, you know, and what that would look like. You know, that'd be, you know, yeah. Well someday when we can go back outside, we can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't congregate right now but you know yeah we don't

we'll be definitely talking about that man it must have been interesting like la mama because like that's some weird shit sometimes and you know what the we know what's the love about theater too um there's no mistakes there's no cut and action you have we you know it forces us to use everything yeah you got to stay in the moment it forces me to stay in the moment. It forces me to stay in the moment. I remember when I first started coming around, because of my theater training, I memorized everybody's lines. In fact,

I used to write, I would only write my lines and not memorize them. I would just write them down, but I would memorize your lines, the other actors' lines, because I needed to stay in that moment. And what I did with my dialogue, I would tell write them down, but I would memorize your lines, the other actors' lines, because I needed to stay in that moment. And what I did with my dialogue, I would tell myself, well, Mike, if I understand the world and what the other characters are saying

and where they're coming from, my lines will be common sense. They'll be logic. I don't have to remember my line. It'll come to me because it's logic. Oh, and then once – so then you know the intention you know bingo right bingo and so theater taught me that in theater also taught me to because it taught me to know the intention if you switched it up because another thing about andre royale he he also comes from the theater background same the same circuit that i was running and jay was running and we didn't know each other at the time.

We actually did the same play and didn't know each other at the time with Yolanda Ross. We played three different men in her life, and she was like marrying with... Dre was notorious for switching it up. And Delon was like,

yeah, I got to go home and walk my dog. Dre was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got to go home and walk my dog. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got to go feed my cat. And you got to like, you know, and theater taught me no matter how many times, how many nights we do it, if I mess around and stop listening to you

and waiting for you to shut up so I can say my line, that leaves a, I could get tripped with an actor like Andre who might, you know, he might throw you a nugget. And if you're not in a position to catch it, you're going to trip. It'll knock you in the head. So theater taught me those things, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You got to listen. Got to listen. Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to listen. Got to listen. Yes, sir. Yeah. So you feel better. Now, when you did The Wire, were you high? I didn't get high the whole first season of The Wire. I had wanted to make such a good impression on David and Nina and Ed.

I decided, you know, I stopped smoking weed. I wasn't getting high, nothing. And ironically, I picked up cigarettes. I said, you know, cause I said, I can, you know, cigarettes don't get me high. It'll, it'll, it'll feed my oral fixation. That's a tough one. I started, yeah, but I went to clothes, you know, the jar rooms. I started there, you know? And so, the whole first thing I didn't get high. And then they made me a series regular on season two. Yeah.

And as we all know, season two was about the docs. So what happened, again, my idle mind became the devil's workshop. I'm in Baltimore. I'm already partying, going to clubs and things of that nature. And I have all this time on my hands. I don't have the responsibility that I can't get fucked up because you got to be to work tomorrow. There were like weeks, a week or days, chunks of time in between. So you got to play some chess.

And, you know, and I ended up picking up in season two. I ended up picking up in season two. But, you know, I really, man, the cast of The Wire, Wendell Pierce, Sonia, Andre. Wendell's the best. Seth Gilliam, Dom Lombardozzi. These men and women, man, they would come grab me up. They never let me slip too far between the cracks, man. And we became a family. They became my family on season two, I should say.

And that still holds true to this day. That's beautiful. And I can't, in terms of influences, to have Andre on one side and Wendell on the other, you got the full spectrum, man. You know, you've got the raw honesty and you got the thinky stuff. You know what I mean? Wendell is like a oracle yeah you know a lot of heart and a lot of heart and he got a lot of fight in him don't let that don't let those reading glasses and that three-piece suit fool you with that necktie window will fuck you up and he he comes, that's a New Orleans dude through and through, man.

And he's educated. And he's not afraid. And I take, he drops jewels. He's full of wisdom. Early on in the career, man, Wendell sat me down.

I forget what he was talking about. But he said, you know what, Michael? He said, this business is about the work you do, the people you meet, and the relationships that you build. And I never forgot that. It kept me humble. It kept me focused on what's important about being in this land of make-believe that we live in. Yeah, yeah. It kept me.

So that's the kind of thing that Wendell did. But he he'll also he'll be right beside you at the bar throwing him back he has you know you know a lot of people don't know window if you look at him and you perceive him a certain way and oh you missed the party you will miss the party weren't looking at his suit and tie yeah i've talked to him he's a great guy. So when you did the Boardwalk Empire, man, how do you feel about that time travel business? You like going to different times? You know, I was talking to a good friend of mine, and he kind of hit me, you know, put my attention to what you just said.

Yeah. Yes, the answer, first off, is yes, I do love going back in time. I decided to use those stories, whether it was Chucky White on Bobak Empire or Jack G in Bessie opposite Queen Latifah, or if it was Montrose Freeman in Lovecraft country, I keep, there is something that my friend Gano, he was telling me, he said, yo, Mike, he said, have you noticed the ancestors keep bringing you back, using you to tell their story? And it's not just all over the place. I'm always being asked to go to the 1920s,

I'm always being asked to go to the 1920s the era that my father was born in and my good friend like I said he was talking he was like you know we do I work with my ancestors man I acknowledge them on a daily basis

and he hit me to that just recently so yes I do I also take that, the opportunity to go back in time and tell the stories of my ancestors. I also wear that just as much with a badge of honor

and a huge responsibility to me as well. Is your folk still around? My father's deceased. My mom's still alive, man. She just made 93 this past December. Still swinging that cane, trying to knock me out. Come here, boy. I'll knock you out.

All right, mom. She lived close by? No, man. We got her out of the state. We got her out of New York. You know, 93. She did her bit. I'm 50-some-odd years in the projects.

You know, she managed to save her. And let me go on record. She bought her own house cash from that daycare, you know. And yeah, man, it took some nudging because she was so comfortable, you know, almost 60 years in one apartment, in one building, in one community. That's New York, man. Yeah, in Brooklyn, right, in Vanderveer.

And, you know, like around 70, right after her 75th birthday, man, we took some nudging, but she said, ah, what the hell, okay, I'll go. So she's out of state now, but she's doing fine. Yeah, she's happy, very happy. And you're happy? Yes, I am, man. I'm grateful. You already know. Yeah, yeah. I'm grateful. I're happy? Yes, I am, man. I'm grateful. You already know.

I ain't got nothing to complain about, man. We here. And you're cooking. You got Rachel Ray. Yeah, Rachel Ray. She called me out of the midst of it for this morning. I'll catch her recipe tomorrow. Have you ever met her? Yes, actually, I did, man.

She interviewed me when I was doing this show called happen leonard um and did you know everything did you know you were such a big fan well after the show went off yes she found out because i was not about to leave i said there's no i said yo rachel i said i said hey yo i said you know there's no you know there's no way i'm leaving this studio without you making me a hamburger. You gotta make me the special Rachel Ray burger.

With the three different kinds of meats, I need that in my life. She looked at me and she chuckled. She's like, this motherfucker. She went to the set kitchen because there's a real kitchen on that set. That's all real. She went in the kitchen because there's a real kitchen on that set. That's all real. She went in the back.

And 20 minutes later, man, I had an authentic, you know, Rachel Ray cheeseburger. I could have died with the heaven. Well, I'm glad that happened for you. All right, man. It was good talking to you. And I love the movie i love your work and uh you know this is like going to a meeting i feel better thank you mark same here

brother thank you man okay take it easy yeah Thank you.