WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Sally Kellerman from 2013

Episode Date: February 25, 2022

From 2013, Sally Kellerman talks with Marc about being his TV mom, embracing Hot Lips, and working with Robert Altman, Marlon Brando, Rodney Dangerfield and more. Sally died on February 24, 2022 at age 84. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's interesting because I saw the number of movies you did and I would say that everyone knows you as Hot Lips, right? Still? Still, exactly. Thus the title of my book. Right. I finally gave in, you know. Isn't that mind-blowing? It is, yeah. That that was the role? I know. And it was a fairly aggressive female personality, which you're not that person. Oh, no. But I was voted A9 class clown. Oh, yeah. So that when Bob...

Well, I mean, it's a long story, but... We got time. We can go back. We can start at the beginning if you want. Let's start at the beginning. Sally Kellerman, you grew up in this area. Well, I grew up in San Fernando, Granada Hills, and then moved to town in 10th grade. So where's your family?

How'd they end up here in San Fernando Valley? Because it's not the same as it was now. Oh, no. There was nothing there. And Granada Hills, I spent all my days walking, sitting under bushes, daydreaming. There was nothing there. And Granada Hills, I spent all my days walking, sitting under bushes, daydreaming. And the real tip-off that I was going to be a performer was that one day,

walking alone with my dog, I go, I wonder why God chose me to see the world through my eyes. You know, I thought, oh boy, there it was. If any of you know, me, me, me. Yeah, chosen by God. By God to see the world. What was the valley like, though? What was out there? Oh, I loved it so much.

There was nothing. I mean, it was orange where I lived in Grotta Hills. It was all orange groves. And that was, I think Bob Hope probably owned the entire valley at that time. I don't know. Well, he owned Malibu Canyon, all that area. It was beautiful, rolling hills. Oh, my God.

It's such a gorgeous country. So what did your dad do? I mean, what was his business out there? He was a salesman. And he was- He just settled there? No,'s such a gorgeous country. So what did your dad do? I mean, what was his business out there? He was a salesman. And he was... He just settled there? No, he was a salesman.

He started, you know, worked for the Shell Oil Company. My mom, only a slight mention of it my whole life. And I never got into it. My dad didn't live long enough for me to finally grow up and say, Hey, Dad, tell me about yourself. How old were you when he died? Well, old, but, you know, 33. But, I mean...

You weren't interested yet. I should have been, yeah. I took me out of a late bloomer, you know. I talk to him all the time now that he's dead. You know, I do. Do you? Sometimes I have to remind myself to call a couple of my friends who are still living.

You have conversations with your dad around the house? My dad, my mom, my best friend Luana Anders, and all kinds of people that's what i mean i think wait a minute i think i'll go see anybody i know a few people who are still alive maybe we should check in with them exactly no it's it's great i mean i really i feel very attached to all of them you know i feel like they're up there uh yeah sure rooting for me yeah yeah definitely yeah well i mean me me me but that's like you know that's who we are right that's why we chose the business we chose yeah how did you find your way into uh like when you were in school was that when was your interest sort of to be a movie star what sparked that well i came out of the womb singing

and acting you know i mean in grammar school my best friend wrote a play. She let me star in it. It was probably three minutes long or something. I added a song, a B.O. song. So it was dancing and singing. No dancing. No dancing, just singing.

Michael Kidd, I was in a Broadway musical. He said, it isn't that you can't dance, it's that you won't, you know, because I was so insecure. But, you know,

singing, music has been my, you know, passion along with acting. And so, I was heavy and didn't like myself Singing, music has been my passion along with acting. I was heavy and didn't like myself in high school. Heavy? Yeah.

Really? Yeah, people always say that to me. Yeah, I was, like 175, 5'10", with a butch haircut from the valley at Hollywood High. But I always put trios together. I was always singing singing and I did demos and there was a group called the Four Preps that were in my high school,

you know, and Lincoln Mayorga. The last time I saw him he was playing with Quincy Jones. And we did demos in my living room. I don't know

how we made them. What kind of music? Not like today. Yeah. Well, then it was jazz. My roots are in jazz for sure. And I got a contract

with Verve Records right out of that. That was Norman Grands that had all the greats. Great jazz label. It did everybody. Yeah, it did everybody at that time. And they signed me right the summer after school. How old were you? 18.

Really? So you're signed to Verve Records as a vocalist at 18. Yeah. And you went to Hollywood High? Yeah. I mean, I know it's corny because, you know, Lana Turner got hired from the stool of the bench, but it was one of my best friends, Dawn Richards,

who knew Norman Granz, and she took it there, and Barney Kessel signed me. But, you know, and I was with Jack Nicholson, who was in my acting class, right when I graduated from Hollywood High, the summer I did. Yeah. Another friend of mine who was a child radio actor, she said, who was in my acting class, right when I graduated from Hollywood High, the summer I did. Yeah. Another friend of mine who was a child radio actress,

he said, well, if you're serious... It took me to the 12th grade to admit I was going to be an actress, because I thought you had to be pretty. Yeah. You know, they'd just think I was pretty, and I wasn't, and I felt so not pretty, so I never told anybody. Did you act in high school, though? Well, only when I got into the 12th grade.

But mostly I just sang. It was okay to sing and be a geek, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeahth grade. But mostly I just sang. It was okay to sing and be a geek, you know what I mean? But, you know, to say you wanted to be an actress. In Hollywood,

it must have been like... Yeah, and I said, no, they know I couldn't do that. Did you go to school with a bunch of kids whose parents were in the business? No.

Didn't know anybody. No, didn't know anybody, you know. Because that kind of got, I think Hollywood High was sort of, a lot of actors' kids went there at some point, didn't they?

Maybe it was before or after. Before or after my time. I think Carol Burnett went there. Really? Did you know her in high school? No. I think she was a little before me, maybe. I'm not sure.

But she's listening now going, what do you mean? I was behind you. How dare you? Yeah, exactly. But anyway, the simple answer to your question is I always wanted to be. I knew exactly what I wanted to do. And it turned out I had learning disabilities, which I didn't find out until my younger. What kind? Dyslexia?

I learned nothing. That kind. You couldn't pay attention? I got F. Like ADD or something? I don't know. Whatever I am, attention? I got Fs. Like ADD or something? I don't know. Whatever I am, you know, school went by, and I didn't ever care because I knew what I wanted to do. And I liked people, so I could hang out with my pals in the quad, you know.

My parents were just thrilled for me. So tell me about this acting class. I mean, because it sounds like it was fairly, like, important. Yeah, it was. Who was that guy? I'm going gonna tell you good his name was jeff cory and uh my friend norman g nielsen she said well if you're serious about being an actress you have to go to this guy he worked with james dean and uh you that you have

to go to this class so i went to the class yeah and it was james col and Jack Nicholson and Robert Towne, who wrote Chinatown, you know, a great writer, and Carol Eastman, who wrote Five Busy Pieces. Was she in that movie as well? No, I don't think so, no. And then Shirley Knight came in later, and me and Luana, my best friend, we were like the butch girls,

you know, we didn't, girls that wore makeup and everything, you know, I had my dad's big baggy friend, you know, we were like kind of, we were like the butch girls, you know. We didn't, girls that wore makeup and everything, you know, had my dad's big baggy shirt, you know, and awful. They didn't make cute jeans or anything. It was just like, you know. Yeah. You had to do the best you could. And you guys were like kids then. Yeah, and we didn't wear any makeup or anything like that.

And when Shirley Knight came into class, she could cry. Uh-huh. Oh, right on a dot. Just tears bubbling down her eyes. You know, my great director I work with from Yale, I did Virginia Woolf with, he said, if crying is acting, my Aunt Fanny would have been a star. So I've always hung on to that. I cry like a baby, you know, like a real self-hating baby in real life. But you know, in the old days when they'd roll it and cry, I couldn't do it. Now I can cry. You can do it?

Now, yeah. Somehow my skills developed, you know. Is there a trick to crying? Do you have to think about something? No, I think you have to just really be in it. Or is there a physiological thing? I think you just have to really be in the moment, you know, and if things touch you, you know. Right.

So this guy, Jeff Corey. So Jeff Corey. Was he like a wizard? Was he like one of these Buddhas? For me, he was. Because, as I said, I keep always putting myself down, but sort of geeky and everything. And he saw something in me.

The very first night that I was there, I did a scene from Soroyans something. And he said, have you ever acted before? I said, well, I was the mother in St. Louis in high school. I did that play in junior high. You did? Yeah, I played the boss. Mr. So-and don't remember i don't remember yeah yeah yeah but i added a song oh you got to sing lavender blue you know and uh so you told him you were told

him you know so and he said well anyway he saw you know he saw that i didn't like myself he saw and pull those sweaters up over your hands and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then he told me that I needed to, I needed, ultimately he told me that I needed to see a shrink,

you know. Really? Because he could see that I didn't like myself and he said, and you're beautiful. And, you know, and I knew he meant inside,

you know. And he, I felt like he saw my soul, you know. And in those days I wasn't doing any comedy. I was, you know, really getting down.

Yeah, yeah. Is that what a good acting teacher does though? Because, you know really getting down yeah yeah is that what a good acting teacher does though because you know I hear about these acting classes that are almost cult like now it seems like the ones that get really well known as places where people go to learn even if it's you know Stroudsburg or any of them yeah that the teacher has a certain you know sensitivity or charisma that you know people really feed off of. And you felt like right away he was able to sort of pick you apart and send you to a shrink?

Well, he didn't send me to a shrink right away, but I knew that he saw something in me. And I always felt I would never say anything to anybody. And in the book, I keep saying, you know, I go to the mirror sometimes when I really feel bad. And I go, someday, I look and I didn't even know what I meant. mirror sometimes when I really feel bad and I go someday I look and I didn't even know what I meant yeah but I had this sort of mantra yeah that I would say and so that somewhere I knew that I had talent and that you know that this is what I was did you go to a shrink I went to UCLA to yeah like an assistant shrink or something like that said I need to work some stuff out and he he said, you know, did you masturbate?

And I cried for an hour and a half. I waited the whole hour went by. I cried so hard. Was that it? I was so ashamed, you know. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. My early best friends when I was a kid in grammar school, you know,

taught me how to, you know, suggested that I just, you know. Yeah, yeah, masturbate. Yeah. Yeah. And that helped. You know, until I just, you know. Yeah, yeah, masturbate. Yeah. Yeah. And that helped. You know, until I got that good feeling. Yeah, yeah, sure. I don't have it, you know.

But anyway. But that wasn't the source of your problem. So all my life, you know, I'd always say it to God, you know, that I would never do it again, you know, would you forgive me? You know, oh my God, it's a miracle. And speaking of being so real and honest, you know. Yeah, but that's like one of the.

What do I think I am? That was one of the best things in the world masturbation i mean i don't know why anyone would ever shame anybody for doing that i don't think anybody did shame me you know i just that but when i moved away and my and my girlfriend and i were talking about do you still do that thing i go i know do you know neither one of us did that but uh but i'm so glad we could be able to get right to that no no it's a it's a good thing it's important masturbation is important it's very important guys but what what did um how did you begin to um

move through this insecurity because i mean it's not unusual for for for actors or for people that are in performing arts to to have that i mean i think it drives a lot of us for some reason that sort of need for approval i mean how did you start to work through that? You know, I grew up in a very spiritual family. What does that mean? Well, it means it was a lot of love. There was a lot of, as my mom would say, everything we need is within us. Oh, really?

Yeah. I mean, she really, you know, it was a Christian science, which is so, so controversial. It was Christian science. Yes, it was, which is a more spiritual than religious kind of experience. I think people are usually kind of taken aback by their approach to medicine. Well, that's it. Yeah, I'm letting their children die or something. And my

mother's best friend died of pneumonia and mother came home and said she heard angels. But when my mom, when I was a waitress in some of my funniest, happiest days of my life, she hemorrhaged and they went right to the hospital. She wasn't, you know, and she'd been a first and second reader and everything. But it was the things that, you know, darling, nothing is too good to happen.

And it was just a very, you know, positive. And I always used to tell people, I didn't have to run home when I skinned my knee because I knew, you know, I'm God's perfect child and I'm all right. You know, and then people in junior high, they say, how do you, what would you do if you broke your arm? And I'd say, well, we work to know that we're not going to break our arm. And I never did break my arm. You know, so it worked out beautifully. But at 18, I just rebelled.

You know, if God is love, how come I'm fat and I don't have a boyfriend and I'm not a movie star? You know, so my poor mother had to live through that. But what she left me with, this legacy of faith, is fantastic. Where maybe there are people listening who go, oh, brother, faith. But it's given me such strength. But not specific, or is it specific? No, I mean, it's certainly God-based, in other words, or higher power, whatever you want to call it. But a sense that I'm not on my own,

that things happen, miracles happen all the time in my life, and I'm sure in yours, and things that you're not expecting, and suddenly there they are. You just have to stop and acknowledge them. Stop and acknowledge them. The more I focus on the good and letting go. And also,

you know, being present for them because a lot of times when you get ambitious or, you know, you want things to happen, you don't see that things are happening.

And you're like desperate and striving and you're going to make it and then you're depressed and I've been through all of that, you know, but at this time in my life,

nice thing about living so long, you know, you get a little more wisdom. I'm not saying, you know, I'm But at this time in my life, nice thing about living so long, you know, you get a little more wisdom. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not going on the road with my wisdom, but you know. Sure, sure.

You could. You could if you wanted. I could. You could put that together. But what my wisdom has afforded me is I've never had so much fun because I sing, you know, and I always have.

And you're still singing. I'm out there singing, man. I'm desperate to sing. I can't sing enough and I can't sing enough because it's absolutely one of those pure joy deals. It's terribly frightening to me. Yeah, I love it. I love it.

I got guitars here, but I've always been afraid to do it in front of people. And I just recently, within the last few years, sang in front of people and it freed me. I've been scared of it all my whole life because I think it's much more vulnerable and much more raw than acting or anything.

I just, I think singing, like I watch musicals, I cry just because there's so many people singing. Oh, I do too. Just because of singing, even if it's a happy musical. And you go to a musical

and you hear the overture and I'm crying. Exactly. But it's taken me 40 years, you know, from my first record contract at Verve and everyone asked me at the beginning of the book, they say, well, wait a minute, you know, from my first record contract at Verve. And everyone asked me at the beginning of the book, they say, well, wait a minute, you said, why didn't you make a recording at that time?

Yeah. And I didn't know why, except that I was so afraid. Right. I was going to be all alone singing, you know, I didn't know there was going to be a keyboard guy that I'd fall in love with, you know, and a band, you know. But the acting class was nurturing. Yeah. Jeff helped me grow up.

In that situation, it was warm and it was other friends and people and people I knew that I loved. You must have been the youngest one in the room, right? How old was Nicholson at that time? No, I think Jack was that age too and he was always magical. Like 19 or whatever?

Yeah, 18, 19, yeah. So you knew Jack Nicholson when he was 19? Yeah, and 20. We were really, yeah, 18, 19, yeah. So you knew Jack Nicholson when he was 19? Yeah, and 20, and yeah, and we were really good pals. And, oh, I love Jack, you know, even now, as I say to him, Jack, you know, I've always loved you in spite of yourself. You know, whatever you feel about me, but 40 years later, I still love you. You see him sometimes? I do, just every now and then.

Mostly on the phone or something. Oh, yeah? You guys still talk like old pals? Yeah, I guess we do, sure. Yeah. He's great. He's the greatest. Yeah, he really is great. And at that time, what, he was doing Corman movies?

Yes, he was. Well, you know, he had it all together, man. He had that silly high voice, you know, and everything. But he just hooked in with Roger and Carol and everybody else. And I'd be like, Geeko in the background. And finally Roger gave me a part. In what movie? Extra.

Machine Gun Kelly playing a prostitute. How perfect. But I was grateful to have him. What was Corman like at that time? He was in my class too, by the way. Really? How old was that guy then? I don't know.

I always think he's a little older than us. But probably not too much. How old was that guy then? I don't know. I always think he's a little older than us, but, you know. He probably isn't. Probably not too much, you know. But he would stand in the front of the class with his eyes closed tight like this, you know, and Jeff would say, Roger, you have to open your eyes. And then he slowly in the middle of the improvisation turned around with his back to everybody. So anyway, he was. That's so wild about those kind of acting classes where you you know they

just throw you into these situations and you're out there with another person in front of all these young people that are supposedly supportive which they are but it's terrifying and and getting back to the music yeah it's easier for me now to sing than it is from all the acting yeah no it's just easy to be on stage i'm thinking because I've done a couple of independent movies this last year, you know, one playing an Alzheimer's patient, and I don't know why. I said yes because I hadn't been acting, and I suddenly went, what have I done? Why have I said yes? Oh, my God, if I don't do it right, you know, it's not a funny situation.

So I was really proud. I did a lot of research, and it worked out. But I think my acting is better now because of the freedom i found it took me 40 years to get on that stage and i go on with no script no anything i don't know what's going to happen and because last week i got a lot of laughs i think oh my god i have nothing in my head i don't know what i'm going to do i have no idea and i walk out there the other night i went hello and everybody laughed you know so i'm not supposed to laugh altman was a big you know he was involved in my music i don. Altman was a big, you know,

he was involved in my music. I don't give a shit what you say. I just want to hear you sing. You know, don't talk, don't talk. And I did big shows where everything was written, you know, structured and one thing called the other

and backup singers and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And now I just, I'm out there and I'm telling you, I love the audiences so much. I'm so free. It's so free. Well, you have self-acceptance now.

Yeah, and great songs. Yeah. And, you know, and just, it's so much fun. I like to go down in the audience and I don't kiss them, but I do try to touch everyone in the room, you know, and look and sing in their eyes, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just so much fun. Just one song. I mean, fear is exhausting after a certain point.

Boy, no shit. You know, I seem to be the one swearing. Do we swear on this? Yeah, of course. No problem. Say whatever you want. Do we say, oh shit, Sherlock? Yeah, hell yeah.

No shit, Sherlock? Yeah, absolutely. Who was at the actor's studio when you were there? Like other actors? Anyone we know? No. Not that I can think of. In the book, you talk about meeting Marlon Brando,

which I thought was sort of both exciting and creepy at the same time. Oh, was it creepy? Why was it creepy? Well, because you're like a teenager and you ran into him

and he's like, get in my car. Oh, no, it's so much more fun than that. It's one of the most heavenly moments of my life, you know. I'm sorry.

When I was in junior high, Danny Kaye, you know, Bill Crosby, they were all my heroes. Yeah, yeah. And then I went to see Viva Zapata in the theater. That's great, yeah. And my life changed, you know. Yeah.

I learned about seething sexuality and vulnerability, that it wasn't terrible to be vulnerable, you know, because I was so shy. Yeah. And he was standing there without a shirt and these white drawstring pants looking out the window you know yeah marlin marlin anyway yeah uh so that even then i saw the men and the wild and you know guys and dolls and i saw everything seven times no less than seven times and when i moved to hollywood high and then i, and I'm driving down Hollywood Boulevard one day, and I look over, and this beat-up white car is Marlon Brando. And I go, oh, my God.

Oh, that can't be Marlon, because he'd be in a limo. I had no idea what private life. And then so I started seeing him in a movie once in white pants. So I went right out with my little money from my waitress days and bought a pair of white pants and everything. No, I mean, I worshipped him and I thought, I told my friends, he would understand me, you know, because I had a weight problem. I hear that he had a weight problem. In those days, he had no weight problem.

He was the most gorgeous thing that ever walked, you know. And so, one night, Al Leteer, this club we all hung out in called Cosmo Alley and Stan Getz was playing there and Al Letier, he was in The Godfather

and a friend of Marlon's, I didn't know that, but anyway, Al, hi Al, I want to see Stan, can I get in? He says, yeah, I'll put you right over here.

He sits me down and I'm not looking because I don't know who I came with but he left and I didn't care. So I sit down in this chair and suddenly

this young black guy, he stands up in the dark and says sayonara on the waterfront Marlon Brando how do you do and I looked over

here's Marlon Brando sitting right next to him and he throws his head back and he laughs well I turned to stone so two sets of Stan Getz which I loved you know

I worshipped him too but I didn't look to the I did not move I didn't look to the left or the right. And I had this bleach blonde hair and, you know, 170 and 5'10 and a big talker. I didn't say a word. And when my date left, he goes, I'm leaving. I go, goodbye.

And now the lights come up and I'm still sitting there because I know he's still sitting there and I don't dare look. And then suddenly I hear, so what are you, an actress? And I whirl around, and I say, yes, I am, and I don't think it's funny. And he says, would you like to go for a ride? Yes, I would. And so we get in this beat-up car, and I'm out of my mind. I'm so in love and so panicked and scared and, you know, every feeling you could have. And we go about a fourth of a block, and he reaches over and touches my arm,

and I pull back. Yeah. And he says, right, I wouldn't want to spoil this beautiful friendship. And he turns the car around and drops me off in front of the club. And someone said, you must have been so devastated. I said, devastated? I was so thrilled and excited and over the moon. I was in Marlon Brando's car, you know.

What do you think that was? What do you think that moment meant when he said, I wouldn't want to ruin this beautiful friendship? Do you think he was like, he decided in that moment not to? He knew he wasn't going to get laid. Yeah, no. He was like just bummed because, you know, man, I could have had a cool night, you know, a quick, you know, how do you do, and then on with my evening, you know.

So now, one night after work i'm cleaning the tables off you know it was a small place it was just a little indent out of sun you walked back into this little patio uh on sunset boulevard and uh so anyway we're closed so i'm wiping the tables and suddenly i hear max who thought he was napoleon and he looked like him everything he says sally we're open i say we are and i look up and coming through the patio is Marlon Brando with this big, tall, blonde guy. Yeah. And I just spent the last year in analysis, in therapy, trying to get over this crush on Marlon Brando. Well, I was.

And the masturbating. Yeah. Thanks so much. Every minute. So I'm staying away from him and I'm wiping every table. I don't have to look at him. He says, Sally Sally give them the menus here

plunk the menus and back to my as far as I can go and then I had to get this hot cider and so I anyway I wiped myself into a corner

right near where he was sitting I couldn't get any there was nothing left to wipe and I I put my back to him and he goes Sally don't you remember me

or are you playing it cool and I whirled around and I said I'm playing it him, and he goes, Sally, don't you remember me, or are you playing it cool? And I whirled around, and I said, I'm playing it cool because every minute I ever spent with you was the worst minute of my life. Oh, my God. And then he smiled, and he said, Would you like to come up to the house? Yes, I would.

Oh, my God. Long story short, we ended up on his bed, and someone said they didn't know if this was pitiful or fantastic, but we ended up on his bed and this is someone said they didn't know if this was pitiful or fantastic you know but we ended up on his bed talking and he accidentally

just something I said something you know kind of too tender or something and he just touched me to you know be nice

and I said well don't and I just blurted out don't touch me because you'll never touch me as much as I want you to and the next thing

is like a dream sequence and I am now in Marlon Brando's bed spending the night going no don't touch me because you'll never touch me as much as I want you to. And the next thing is like a dream sequence. And I am now in Marlon Brando's bed, spending the night going, no, don't, pushing, you know, fending him off for the night. All night. Why? Because I wanted to be special, ladies and gentlemen.

I wanted to be special. And he was still very, very attractive. He was around the Young Lions time. So he was still great looking. You know, he wasn't fat. Yeah. So I got to go watch him work once. very, very attractive. He was around the Young Lions time, so he was still great looking. He wasn't fat. With Montgomery Cliff. Yeah, so I got to go watch him work once. I really learned something.

So you never slept with him? It is a mistake I wouldn't make in my next life. That's all I can tell you. It was a really, to have this, to love this man like I did. And then to ruin it. Yeah, and then I said,

I was special, all right. He hated me the next day. Oh my God. He was slamming doors and everything. Really? He didn't get any sleep either. He was so busy fighting him off. Right.

All right. So I. That's hilarious. But he was so sweet. Whenever I'd see him, he'd go, so I don't know you, Sally. No. You know. And before he died, I let them throw knives at me at the circus of the stars you know and my husband got

off a plane from london said i hope they gave you a million dollars you know and then i heard from some of my friends that marlin was at their house watching the circus he said sally shouldn't have done that because i was very dangerous so i said that was my reward he cared whether he still cared how was what i mean you were part of this like like that era in Hollywood, it seemed almost to me, you know, as a guy who can romanticize it, it was before me a little bit. But that seemed to be like the biggest party and the biggest fun times to live in Hollywood. When, you know, the Laurel Canyon crew and Beatty and Nicholson and Bob Raffleson and Hopper and all those cats yeah Dennis right yeah yeah I mean and there were no paparazzi and this was before even Altman you know and no paparazzi nobody they could come in and people

came in there every night to where you were working yeah I was in my biggest starring role I waited on more movie stars than I worked with in my entire career. But, you know, long brown hair and my high school skirt with the crinoline, you know. Well, who do you remember being, like, you know, interesting and nice to you? Or, like, were there moments where you're like, oh my, like, that guy's an asshole, or that guy's a much nicer guy than I thought? Well, Harry

Gardino, you know who he is? Yeah, sure. So, he came in there one night and somebody said to me while I was waiting on tables, he said, some of the strangers he says, boy, you're really big. And Harry turns around and says, no, she's not. She's a woman. Well, shortly thereafter, maybe that same night or another night, Warren Beatty comes in, fresh from New York or wherever he came from,

and just a young boy. And an agent, Paul Brandon, came over and said, this guy, Warren Beatty, would like to know if you'd like to have dinner with him or something. And I was like, oh, please. You know, this young boy, Harry Gardino, had said I was a woman, you know. I couldn't possibly. The next year, Warren was the biggest star in the world, the handsomest, you know. And I could never get on that list of dinner and a roll in the hay.

You couldn't get in bed with Warren Beatty, come on. Yeah, so unfair. No, I'm saying I could have gotten in bed with him. Then? Yeah, but I couldn't have gotten a dinner and a movie. I had my standards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's interesting.

So the relationships that you built when you were early on that you sort of maintained, I always wonder about who keeps in touch with who. You say sometimes you see Jack and you're close with Jack. I keep in touch with Jack. You know what I mean? And he says, it's good you called, Sally. It's up to me. You know what I mean?

Because I love him. Yeah. I don't give a shit. And I don't need anything from him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And Warren, you know, I don't know that't need anything from him so i'm not uh yeah yeah yeah and and warren you know i don't know that warren and i were ever really that close but i've always adored him and

it's always great to see him but what about through a bob altman through his life uh all his life from the moment i met him yeah and so stupid you know the man gave me a career yeah and and when i didn't want to do the film and then i went back someone you have to go back so i read the script again he told me in the middle of me i'll give you the best part in the picture i didn't know he was hot lips and i just wore red lips my sister always said shut up big lips and your ugly voice but so i that day i wore red lips and and so anyway i went back so mad at him because i went through and counted the lines you know i couldn't even find any yeah so i go back to meet him, and I go,

and he was alone this time before he was in a big room. I say, I'm not just a whack, I'm a woman, and why does she have to leave the film? And why couldn't she do this? And why couldn't she do that? And he said, well, leaning back casually in his chair, why couldn't she? You could end up with something or nothing. Why don't you take a chance?

I was like, huh? I'd come from TV. I did every TV, guested on every TV show from Star Trek to, you know, everything in the 60s. So you were almost all television. It was all, yes, exactly. All episodic stuff. And I wanted so much to be in the movies. I did one picture with George Pappard when I was thin and I got to dance in front of a fireplace and say, boobie, boobie, boobie.

And I thought that would rocket me to stardom, but no one saw the film. It was George Pappard and Elizabeth Ashley. When did you first start doing the episodic television? Like right, when? In the 60s,

early 60s, and all through the 60s. And you did like, did you do the Twilight Zone and that kind of stuff or was that still around? I did two Outer Limits is what started my career.

Outer Limits, right. God, I can't think of his name. Well, have I lived a long time, guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Joe Stefano.

He wrote the screenplay of Psycho, and he saw me in a play where I got the worst reviews, although her wooden betrayal of Stockman's daughter, you know, her fresh beauty, she should get out of the business. And why Joe came to see a second play, I'll never know, but he goes, your growth is amazing, and I'm going to go, blah, blah.

He sent me a script, the part is angry, the magic is yours. And then it was the last thing that showed, and he had me come to a rough cut. Have you ever been to a rough cut? You don't ever want to go again. No music, no nothing, no nothing. And I thought I was, the way he talked about me, I thought I was going to see Elizabeth Taylor.

Instead, there I was, the geek. I raced to Vic Morrow's dressing room on Combat. I'm not only ugly, I'm untouchable. And raced to Vic Morrow's dressing room on combat. I'm not only ugly, I'm untouchable. And the show didn't show for the whole season. It was the last one to show, but Joe took out a letter that said, the part is angry. Oh, no, that was what he sent me.

You all know Sally as an actress, but tonight you will see her as a star. She really is. And a picture of me with stars in my eyes. And I never stopped working from that moment on. I just went from the Chrysler Hour to craft to the star trek i just and he wrote another one for me with martin landau and in a house coat killing this lovely outer space monster and yeah i mean i you know so i did all that but now i'm wanting desperately to be in the movies and then you know and he's telling me i'll give you the best part in the picture how'd you get the audition with altman i don't know they

just called up you know he wasn't a big deal anyway at that time. He'd just done one film. It didn't do well. And I had an agent, and so they sent me out. But it was just love at Second Sight. I just knew I was home, man. Because of the learning things, he was not an intellectual. But it was like going to a picnic with a genius.

You know what I mean? I mean, I'd already done the breakdown scene. He was not an intellectual, but it was like going to a picnic with a genius. You know what I mean? I mean, I'd already done the breakdown scene, and when I did it after the shower scene, I mean, none of you have seen it or whatever you have. Sure, of course, of course. I had this big tantrum with the soap, so I was hanging on my face. I asked him if I could wash my hair so I wouldn't be staring at the curtain. And when I got through, he didn't say cut.

And I'm like, you know, and furthermore, you should blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. And he didn't say cut, and I'm like, you know, and furthermore, you should blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and it didn't say cut, and then suddenly it just hit me that everything, I was going to lose everything I cared about, and I backed out of the tent going, my commission, my commission, and he ran around the tent and said,

now you can stay in the film, you're vulnerable, you've changed, and he made up everything else, and he gave me one of the biggest thrills of my life, I got to be a cheerleader. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. And me and Elliot Gould and a bunch of us went on this thing for Bob's book with Catherine and everybody. And they had a retrospective, and they showed MASH.

I hadn't seen it in 30 years, you know. And when I saw that cheerleading scene, and I heard the colonel saying, Hot lips, you're a blithering idiot. And I really was. I was leaping and jumping. And Bob's shouting when we're shooting, you know you know Sally when the gun goes off at the half and he's way up over the football field say my god they shot him and things like that that I got to do with one of the biggest thrills of my life just to be

that big that's great and that and that changed it was the improv that he kept the camera rolling yeah and and when he saw how you followed through with the emotions of the scene yeah he was like you're a different person and your characters changed and now you're in the movie oh I got you followed through with the emotions of the scene he was like you're a different person and your character's changed and now you're in the movie oh I got to play poker with the guys I got laid I got everything so in those days they thought it was chauvinistic

and how could he be so horrible but she needed it she would never have had a life she was so tight because it was her home that was another thing like working with him. He just tossed it. When you asked Donald Sutherland, ask him where you're from, tell him you like to think of the Army as your home. Now, I'd already done that scene. I already had a lot of stuff, but that was the whole key to the character. It was her home. She wasn't just nasty.

It was the only place she had order. Yeah. And when they disrespected it, it was like blah, blah, blah. That's right. But I can, you know, it was like, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that's right, right. But I can remember it all like it was yesterday. And what we, like, when he, you know, he's got sort of, you know, very large reputation. Oh. Like, was he just, was he funny and just completely charismatic? I mean, what made him such a...

He certainly earned his reputation. What did you say? He has a very big reputation. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, he can be horrible and so wonderful. And, you know, he was unstoppable. If they didn't, you know, he'd have a big flop,

and they'd be honoring him in Cannes. Right. He'd have another big flop, and they'd be honoring him. He flew me, we were doing Pret-a-Porter, me and Lauren McCall back to L.A., to New York, in the middle of shooting to testify for him at this incredible evening at the Lincoln Center, you know.

And I told stories about him and people laughed a lot. And Jack Lemmon says, no one will top you tonight, you know. I thought, oh, thank you, Jack, you know. And at the end of the thing, and they showed all of Altman's films, you know, just you got this sense

of what a genius he was visionary visionary yeah and afterwards I go up to him Bob this was so fantastic he said it was your night

I go it wasn't my night Bob it was yours but you know we were very close and then of course when he asked me called me when he was making

McCabe and Mrs. Miller will I be in his film after next I go I'd gone from the geek to everybody telling me I was the greatest yeah

got nominated for Academy Award Golden Globe you, for Hot Lips. And I began to believe my own publicity. So he calls me, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I go, well, if the part is good. Bang, he hung up on me. And it turned out to be Nashville. Oh, my God.

It poked my eye out. I think when I thought of it. You know, me, the singer. Yeah. He was a big supporter of my music. And we ended up doing two or three other films

and some television and I was the lips on one of a great pilot he made so far ahead of his time about all this computer age and gates

and everything and he just kept working man he never if they didn't have him here he'd go to Europe if they didn't like that he'd go to do an opera

but there was just nobody my husband who's a very successful producer. A lot of great films. Is he your second husband? Yeah, I had one for a year. Who was that guy?

I don't remember, but whoever he was, bless his heart, it's not his fault. I picked him, and neither one of us really liked ourselves enough, I think, to really make a go of it. And, but my present husband, Jonathan Crane, with a K, I've been married to for 35 years. 35? 33, yeah.

That's a good run, huh? That's a good run. And we were as mad as hatters, as he says, no one else would have us, you know. That's why we're together. But we were separated a couple of times. We'd had everything from you know infidelity to crackers and cheese and we made it

through everything what is the key to that transcending those things well for me I always wanted to see what happened with love I mean that's really

I think somewhere deeply that was the bottom line I wanted to see how love grew if you stuck around you know and my parents

were married for 40 years do you think they went through the same thing? Before my dad died. No, but he had a quick temper. You know? I mean, the worst thing he ever said was,

what, the Sam Hill? Yeah. You know, and he didn't hit us or anything like that, but I was a little scared. Intense, intense. Yeah, he was stern and tense. Yeah.

And then funny, and it was a master ceremony. You tell him you get all your talent from me, so I go, I do, Dad. I tell him all. It must be so hard to maintain marriage in this business.

Like, from what I can tell. You know, I'm not... Well, and you're serious when you start kissing all the leading ladies you'll see. And all you can say is I didn't feel anything. It wasn't real. Oh, yeah, right. God, I did something with a guy named... It was a show called Dream On.

Uh-huh. And what did you do with him? No, I was just being in this bed with him, you know, and now we've been in bed for like five or six hours, you know, and he was funny. So that was just, you know, weeping with laughter and horrified and embarrassed and everything else, you know. And I ended up saying things like, you know, I know you like the other women, you know, more than me. I mean, you know, it was just ridiculous, you know, and I end up saying things like, you know, I know you like the other women, you know, more than me. I mean, you know, it was just ridiculous,

you know, it was so silly. But I like to say... Brian Ben-Ben. Brian Ben-Ben, yeah. He was great, I don't know, but his wife now has a very successful series. Oh, I didn't...

Madeline Stowe is his wife. Really? Yeah. That's right, she does have a series. He is very, very funny and delightful, but I like to say, I've been lucky, all my nude scenes I've done alone.

And then I think, what have I just said? In the shower in MASH, in the fountain in Brewster McLeod, Bob, he'd say, Sally, I was reading the paper, how you'd do anything for me. How do you like snakes?

I'd end up carrying a five-foot boa constrictor. I didn't do anything for them. What about that whole crew of guys who were in MASH and then showed up? Altman, it just seemed like he utilized actors in such a way, and there were so many actors in every movie. It felt like was there a family element to all that

or was it just another film set? Because it seems like to sit around with Elliot Gould and Donald Sutherland and Duvall, I mean, was there camaraderie? I mean, this is why I think I miss, because I'm not a movie person, obviously. I'm not a movie star. But it seemed like in your generation of actors,

there was camaraderie. Well, I mean, there was, but there was also, you know, human beings. I mean, like Elliot and Don kept themselves kind of separate. Everybody else in that group, and now me and Elliot and Tom Skerritt and people, you know, we are. Tom Skerritt.

And, yeah, and we love each other. And we just, it really is wonderful. Me and Elliot just gotten so close in these last years. Yeah. And I love it. I love him. And Tom, I adore.

He's always such a warm sweet guy tom scarrett but he lives up in seattle or somewhere you know so uh so yes i mean some of these relationships do carry on and some don't you know i mean i worked with robert shaw if he hadn't died i'd have loved him the other day i'd wow you know what was the best uh what was the best experience you had with altman honey he was such a character. But you know, before, the last time I saw him, and I say in my book that I've had an addiction to grass. You know, and most people who smoke grass go, oh, what is she talking about?

It's the ludicrous thing I ever heard of. But for me, it was. I know a lot of daily pot smokers who, they don't think of it as an addiction. They just think of it as what I do. Exactly, yeah. And I heard a younger one, you know, just starting out, yes, I think I have the right, which is what I thought. Yes, I work real hard in the daytime, I go to the actor's studio, and then I do it.

Nice to be able to relax and really relax. You know, then I, for the first 11 years, I blamed everything that went wrong in my life. I weren't smoking so much grass, because my friends say, whenever there's anything fun, you're guilty. But nonetheless, Milton Wexler, this brilliant shrink that I write about in the book also said, just hypothetically, I was complaining about this. If I said to you, you lived a disciplined life for a year, you'd have just about everything you wanted. And I quit that day. And I quit for 11 years. But at the end of that first year, I'd made four movies and met my husband. Group therapy, by the way, but that's another story.

Yeah, group therapy. Yeah, but anyway, I quit for 11 years, and then I quit for four, and then I quit for two, and I quit for one, and I wasn't honest with my twins. I had twins at 52. About what, the pot? About pot, yeah, and I always told them with my twins. You know, I had twins at 52. About what? The pot? About pot, yeah.

And I always told them not to smoke. That it was addicting and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I know people that smoke right in front of their kids. Their kids don't go near it, you know. I just, I don't know what the best way would to have handled it. But I was always sorry that, you know, perhaps I'd. Why? Did they smoke a lot of pot?

Well, no, not so much anymore. How old are your twins? They just turned 24 yesterday. Oh. So, or Monday. Uh-huh. And they're the greatest. But I'm just saying that, you know,

I just thought I was a coward, and if you're going to do something and you think it's cool, then you should just find a way to do it, not to go in every night, hey, come on in kids you're four let's have a smoke sure sure well it could have been you know it wasn't uh yeah it's weird with pot because there's always a sort of like well you're not drinking every night

you're not you know you're not messy you're not you know throwing things i'm not falling over showing up like my audition yeah exactly but the thing Bob, smoking with Bob, there was no guilt. There was no worries. There was just fun, fun, fun. And the last time I saw Bob, Catherine fixed one of her lovely, lovely dinners. And his stepdaughter, Connie, another great, great girl, Connie Currier. And Joan Tewksbury. Oh, yay, Joan Tewksbury. And that was the dinner. Connie, Tewksbury, and that was the dinner.

Connie, Tewkesbury, Catherine, me and Bob. Well, the only two people smoking were me and Bob. So we're like, ah! And with Bob, you could laugh. I mean, many years go by, you don't laugh with grass if you don't have a good stop. But we're just laughing at everything. And I say, oh, Catherine, look,

he's making bird wings with his hand. She goes, I know, I've seen it. And then we'd laugh twice as hard. Oh, my God. And I think I really quit after that. I did. I did quit. No more?

No more. No, not for me. And I don't even know how long it's been. So it's just... And I know that there are days and nights, hey, that would be nice just to really relax and let it down. But I know for me, it means that I'll be going, okay, I can smoke three weeks from tomorrow when I finish working.

That's an addictive brain. I can have those two, and that's the addictive brain. I didn't like that. You know, I just don't like that anymore. You start, like, denying yourself and planning around it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've been sober a while yeah i know that day where you're planning trips

around like the weekend by myself i can just spend the whole day yeah i know and then really one of the times i quit is that somebody called me at six o'clock at night and said you want to go to movie and i'd had a lovely walk with one of my best friends out in the country you know smoking by six o'clock i was ready for bed you know a movie what do you mean a movie i And I'd had a lovely walk with one of my best friends out in the country smoking. By six o'clock I was ready for bed. A movie? What do you mean a movie? I'm done. So none of that I liked. But I did have a lot of fun.

Oh yeah, sounds like it. There's a picture in the book of you and Henry Kissinger. What was that from? Speaking of grass, Bob Altman. Did you get high with Kissinger? Well, what do you mean? Wouldn't that be an obvious choice, right?

Well, I do write, again, in the book about Jennifer Jones. I don't know if you know who she was. She was married to David Selznick, and she got an Academy Award for Song of Bernadette, and she was one of the great 40s movie stars. Just the most lovely, beautiful, but grew up in that system and being taken care of by David. The studio system, yeah.

Well, and David Selznick, you know, who did Gone with the Wind, and Ingrid Bergman, and he found all those people and everything, and Jennifer was one of them. And I had the good fortune to meet her, because I was a friend of her son, Bobby Walker Jr., and that's when we hung out with Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper and all kinds of people. Did you get high with those guys?

No. Yeah. Sorry, Dennis and Peter. I hope I'm not opening up a can of worms. But next door was Jane Fonda with Vadim, and she was looking like Barbarella with the long blonde hair and speaking, oh, beautiful French, and I look like Georgie Girl, you know,

Lynn Redgrave and Georgie Girl. But, then one day on the beach this beautiful in a caftan and a hat comes by and it's Jennifer,

Bobby's wife and Bobby's mother. Yeah, Bobby's mother, Bobby Walker. Bobby Walker Jr.'s mother. And, she just said hello

and I was just like spellbound, you know, because I'd grown up watching all those movie stars, you know, in the 40s, you know. And the next thing you know, she called me up and asked me if I'd like to come to dinner at her house. And she was such a lovely hostess and beautiful. The way she could throw a dinner party was just fantastic. And then all these people, you know, that made it so special. And she would invite me to everything, you know. And she was always in my corner.

So one night she calls up and says, Sally, darling, we're having a dinner party and Henry Kissinger would like you to be his date. I said, ooh, Jennifer, I would be embarrassed to be seen with him. And besides, I'm working for McGovern and picketing the Vietnam War

and not the men and women in the Vietnam War. No, you have to really be clear on that because we were all picketing it because we wanted everyone to come home alive and not be killed for nothing, you know, for a war that... Well, I think the other side, the right sort of spun it as the hippies were against the soldiers. Oh, didn't they? It's so sad. I mean, Jane, because Jane had felt she cared about the servicemen and women. That's what she did care about.

She, with somebody, she may have gotten a little carried away, you know, with thinking she could go over there and solve it. You know, I used to think that going up in San Fernando with the Mexicans that I loved and they were such warm, wonderful people. You know, a couple of guys knifed in the thing, but that happens everywhere. But when they first started the gangs downtown, I thought, I'll just go down there and say, listen, guys, put away your knives, you know, and everything.

So, you know, in your bed, you know, it can happen. But what does it mean? That just means you're... It was platonic, whatever it was, definitely. Now, my mother was a good Republican at the time, and she sends me this article about he'd been to China, you know, oh, she was so excited, whatever it was, definitely. Now, my mother was a good Republican at the time. And she sends me this article about he'd been to China. Oh, she was so excited.

And I'm like, my God, how am I going to get in that house and have to say hello to Henry Kissinger? So anyway, I walk in the night of the party, and he's sitting there. And I go over and say, hi, how was China? And he goes, why, did your mother send you an article? And I go, yeah, how did you know? So I say, damn, did your mother send you an article? And I go, yeah, how did you know? So I said, damn,

you know, I had to like him right away, you know. And he did have a, you know, delightful sense of humor, you know,

and everything. So we go to this table and there's Rita Hayworth and Joseph Cotton and people sitting around our table, you know, tables.

Yeah. And they start teasing him, did you see MASH? No, the president, you know, and they said, well, you know, blah, blah, blah. So. And they start teasing him. Did you see MASH? No, the president... And they said, well, you know, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, they kept teasing him. And I guess it was just shortly after I'd gotten up. This is my Henry Kissinger at a Hollywood party

and everyone's teasing him. I love it. Yeah. So yeah, exactly. So now we all stand up at the end of the dinner. And he says, Holly, would you like to go with me to the Russian ambassador dinner?

He's coming here for the first time uh historic event and uh i'm looking at rita hayworth and everybody you know i'm like help no i can't be seen you know what if somebody sees me you know and i go okay and i didn't want to embarrass him and i didn't you know I didn't know what to do oh so you just said okay you know what if I say no thank you you know I mean you know and he's just done this in front of everybody and I just didn't oh he did that out loud in front yeah that's what I'm saying we're all standing on the table when he says it yeah he's still there you know so and you know I Henry's probably hates me with a passion right now for telling these stories i don't know he had a good sense of humor but uh and i ended up liking him you know uh and that

was the thing as far apart as we were politically in every other way you know i did end up really liking him and uh but uh his son's in show business oh really david kissinger runs uh um conan o''Brien's company. Oh, well, he'll hate me. He was at Universal for a while. He'll hate me. No. So anyway, before the dinner, he called Sally. They were just checking to see.

And I go, well, Henry, you know what? I'm very ambivalent about this because you guys are murderers. And he said, well, Sally, I'm sure you don't mean that. And I was still such a rebel. I was intimidated by directors and desperate to get a job and everything, but Henry Kissinger didn't bother me at all. And I said, well, I didn't mean that. I wouldn't have put it.

I just came out of my mouth. So anyway, he picked me up, and all the way there I'm going, well, why are we in Vietnam? Well, Dick, I said, I don't care about Dick. Why are you in Vietnam? And I'm grilling him. And whatever his interest in taking me to dinner was,

I'm sure it wasn't that. I'm sure it wasn't that, you know. I mean. I'm sure it wasn't that either. Yeah, but I mean, you know, he saw a lot of different actresses.

I know he loved Jill St. John and different people. He talked about, oh, she's great, very smart and, you know,

nice things and, but anyway, we went to the dinner and then he asked me to get up and give a, to welcome the ambassador

and I'm like, you know, I was hoping not even to be seen and I thought it would be like, you know, I was hoping not even to be seen. And I thought it would be like, you know, 100 people. It was like 30. And it was John Wayne and Cary Grant

and all these people. I hear John over in the corner. He said, we should have gone in and wiped them off the face of the earth. I really heard him say that. Really? And he was, I really liked him too because he liked women.

You could tell right away. I mean, he's very respectful. I met him on a Mark Rydell set of the, I forget liked women. You could tell right away. I mean, he's very respectful. I met him on a Mark Rydell set of the, I forget, some Western that they were shooting. What was Cary Grant like? He doesn't strike me as a Republican. What was he doing there? Oh, I believe he was.

I don't know. He was certainly there. Maybe he was there like me. I don't know, but I think he was. It sounded like that Henry was infatuated with Hollywood. With Hollywood, I think, yeah, exactly. And he wanted the Russian ambassador, because Hollywood is known throughout the world. Right.

It is the, entertainment is what we do well here. Right. And everybody loves John Wayne and Cary Grant. Why not the Russian ambassador comes, look, these are our royalty. Of course. Of course, and I'm sure Henry, you know, because he could, enjoyed coming to Hollywood and meeting people and things like that, you know what I mean could, enjoyed coming to Hollywood and meeting people and things like that. You know what I mean? So he came to one other dinner down the beach.

Now I'd moved to a little tiny house. I'm talking about the size, not as big as his room, practically. Where, Malibu? In Malibu, on the old road. When he got there, I wasn't ready. I had a cocker spaniel. And I, wet hair, I stick my head out and go, Come on in!

You know, into this little house. He comes in. I didn't have any crackers or cheese or wine or water, anything for him. And I said, I'll be out in a minute. It was about 20 minutes later. All the time that he sat there in this little tiny room, the dog was going, woof, woof, woof, the Secret Service man, you know. So he says, okay, well, let's go.

The good liberal dog. Yeah. And he's going out to the car. I say, no, let's just walk. It's just down the thing. He goes, Sally, you're trying to ruin me. You know, take off your shoes. Well, we did.

He walked down the beach with me. And I guess the Secret Service members were somewhere. They were secret. Yeah. And, you know, nice evening with everyone. And home, you know, handshake or kiss on the cheek. And off he went. And I got two wonderful notes from him.

He said, from Russia with love. First time they ever went to Russia. That was one postcard. And the other one was, sorry, I haven't written lately. I've been busy stopping a war. What have you been up to? And so, anyway, that night in the little house,

you're trying to ruin me. And he said, Sally, I know you were working for McGovern, but when we win, we will still give you a passport. So when they won, I sent a telegram to the White House. Dear Henry, all right, I give up. You win.

Do I still get a passport? Ring. Sally, you're trying to ruin me. That was his joke. And then, you know, because he had a good sense of humor, it makes you wittier and funnier. So then he's saying, Sally, the red line is on. So, I took a beat and so, you know, who's more important?

Yeah. Sally, you're trying to ruin me. So, that was my relationship. It was totally platonic. Right. He was a very nice guy. I wonder if they were trying to, like, I don't know. It seems like he seemed to like the glitz.

I wonder if they were trying to, like, I don't know, it seems like he seemed to like the glitz, but I think that, you know, in the early 70s and late 60s, I imagine that Nixon felt that Hollywood was against him. And they still sort of use that framework, you know, that Hollywood is a bunch of lefties. And I wonder if they were trying to sort of court, you know, Hollywood in some way. Maybe. I don't have a clue. I mean, I really, and why I certainly wasn't the glitziest one around. So I don't know why. Right.

But anyway, people always say Marlon Brando, Henry Kissinger. I don't quite get that. What did you say? Something else. Oh, Altman.

Well, no, it's just like he had some great experiences. It was great that it must have been amazing to be around that generation of those actors and have that opportunity

to having grown up with them and actually be then i actually get to sit with them and then carrie walk by and say hello sally carrie grant he always announced his name you know yeah yeah carrie grant he was pretty darn dreamy what was it like working with uh like a you know i'm a comedian and i love rodney i know you are i Rodney. And you work with Rodney. I did. And that's like another role that people remember you for. I mean, back to school. Back to school. It was back to school.

Yeah, it was. Did you like him? Oh, I liked him a lot. Yeah, because that was my job. Yeah. My job. It was the easiest job as an actress I ever had.

Yeah. All I had to do was love him. Yeah. And to me, he was no trouble whatsoever. And the director really loved his talent and really appreciated me. He'd say, Rodney, plant those feet and speak.

And this is my one brag that I do in life. The director said to me he felt that I helped make Rodney human. I mean, believable in a relationship. That's a good point. Sure. But I guess I just had to love, and then be sincere about it. Because he was always so. I don't know how I ever forgave him for that hot tub thing with all those swimmers, you know, with a snorkel.

But, you know. Well, it was a pretty broad comedy. Everybody's waiting to hear why, you know, oh, what was it like working with him? Well, the truth is we were not best friends, you know. It wasn't like we hung out. He was so serious about the work. And at night in his robe, he'd be right now working on those jokes. The jokes, right.

People stopped me, again, along with, you know, hey, hot lips. I get, call me sometime when you got no class, you know, is one of the biggies. And that was all Rodney. And it was just so special. And my funny story about him but anyway we'd get into the I hadn't made a studio film in a while and they drove us everywhere if they were shooting across the street from my house we would go together

and they'd drive us across the street you know that's how they treat us and he'd be in the limo going oi oi oi I don't know how you can stand this is the worst moment of my life you know. Is this his first movie I mean like he waited a long time to get that attention. Well he did he already did Caddyshack

okay yeah and he came in one morning you know 6 a.m. all right I'm stoned you know and he was always kind of sweating

and you know things like that and but one night so now we've gotten a little chummier and he was being honored at the airport somewhere

so he said do you want to come to the airport they're honoring me and I said sure I'd love to thanks so much so he brought a woman

and you know we're in the backseat of the limo and brought a woman and you know we're in the backseat of the limo and have a drink and you know that kind of thing and but on the way home

I just thought well this is really nice you know I said you know Rodney well I guess I should preface it you know

he was a nightclub guy sure you know what I'm saying yeah he had nightclubs yeah in Vegas that was his thing

so I said to him in the car you know Rodney you're going to have to come up to the house one night and have dinner with Jonathan and me. Well, the look on his face was I'd rather get in a helicopter and jump

than come to your house and have a nice quiet dinner. Completely shocked. What are you, kidding me? Yeah, right. The look on him. He didn't say it, but the look on his face was, oh my God. I have chuckled about that. It was completely out of the realm of possibility possibility how could i have so misjudged you know me who was you know that he

was a person that would have dinner at someone's house oh my god that's right where are we at now you're doing where we what are you doing you got the book out and you're singing all right and i'm singing you're acting in my show and And I'm acting in your show. I wanted to thank you for that. It was very nice of you. Like when you did the walking thing and you were on the phone and then you actually came over to the house

and you were in the other room when I was on the phone and you did the lines with me and that was very nice. You didn't have to do that. Oh, no, I was happy to do it. And just so thrilled. I mean, you have so many fans,

so many people that just love you to death so now i'm one oh thank you and uh so that's really great maybe next season we'll do more of those that do that you can be my mom again yeah i think you better have me as the mom i'm what do you i'm just like your mom a little bit am i well my mom's got the crazy food thing too oh yeah how'd you know did i say something about crazy food thing, too. Oh, yeah. How did you know? Did I say something about crazy food? Oh, yeah, from when I was younger, yeah. She's got the exact same thing. I'm really crazy now, too.

And I'm just now, I'm trying to gain weight. I said to my husband about a year or so ago, I said, Jonathan, do you think I'm too thin now? That's a loaded question. Yeah, do you think I'm too thin? Because, you know, when people get older and your face gets too thin and then you look too old and everything. Do you think he said,

Darling, I've just spent the last 25 years worrying whether you're too fat. I'm not sure I can do the next 25 worrying whether you're too thin. And this week I lost weight and I don't know why. And I saw it last night. I had two big dishes of chocolate ice cream with marshmallow sauce and then a big hamburger sandwich i made myself i was so full and i don't think i couldn't sleep a wink you know because i try to eat nourishingly you know with the candy bar and cookies isn't it fun though when you like when

you actually you know allow yourself the uh the freedom to eat like that isn't it yeah it was fun that first dish of ice cream because i always get get low-fat yogurt, you know, ice cream, you know what I mean? And I thought I went right when I heard, when I got on the scale, oh, I'm going right to, you know, Ralph's and get a hug and ice chocolate, ice cream. Oh, yeah, the richest kind, yeah. The richest, yeah. Well, you look great. Oh, thank you.

And thanks for talking to me. Thank you for having me.