WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - The Marc and Tom Show #4

Episode Date: October 17, 2016

It's been almost four years since the last Marc and Tom Show. After countless hours helping each other figure out what's going on, they're now facing something different: What happens when you might be winning? What's happens after the fight is over? And what happens if you can't figure out what's next? Music by The Tokeleys. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Take a closer look at how at calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.

Hey, people, this episode of the Mark and Tom Show is sponsored by Those Who Teach, the new comedy on TruTV. Adam Clayton Holland, Andrew Orvidal, and Ben Roy of the Denver-based comedy troupe The Grawlick star as three troublemaking teachers, along with Maria Thayer as the school librarian. This season, with a new principal around, they're forced to take their schemes to greater lengths in order to keep their jobs, their friends, and their dignity.

It's going to be a long year. The A.V. Club calls it relentlessly defiantly funny. Those Who Teach, Thursdays at 10.30 p.m., 9.30 p.m. Central on TruTV. We're also sponsored by Your Pretty Face is Going to Hell, an original series from Adult Swim. It's a workplace comedy set in hell, literally hell, where demons deal with love, sex, religion, existential dread, and dealing with the world's lousiest boss, all while having to stab some unfortunate soul with

a pitchfork. Season 3 premieres October 23rd at 11.30pm on Adult Swim, with guest stars like Andy Daly, John Glazer, and Eddie Pepitone. You can catch up with the first two seasons on AdultSwim.com. The show is nominated for an Emmy, but it lost to Rob Corddry, I think. But watch it anyway. and Eddie Pepitone. You can catch up with the first two seasons on adultswim.com. The show is nominated for an Emmy, but it lost to Rob Corddry, I think. But watch it anyway. Your pretty face is going to hell on Adult Swim. Now it's time for the Mark and Tom show.

This is a thing that my friend Tom Sharpling and I have done a few times. We just sit down on the mics and try to figure things out. We did three of these in the past, and you used to only be able to get them on iTunes, but now they're all part of Howl Premium. Go to howl.fm and use the code WTF to start your subscription to Howl,

where you can get thousands of hours of podcasts, including all the WTF archives. Yup. And don't forget to check out my show, The Best Show. It's live every week tuesday nights at 9 p.m eastern at thebestshow.net and you can get the podcast of the show every wednesday okay let's start the mark and tom show Tom, it's been a while. Yeah.

Since we've done this. How do you feel about things? Oh, that's a good open-ended. That's like a trap trap well no i i heard you over you heard you talking to brendan there about i didn't realize you were animation voice i'm one myself but it doesn't sound like i'm as popular as you i've been doing this voice on this this cartoon network show it's called steven universe and i'm the dad on it so you're regular yes i'm the first person below the exciting characters it's it's the kids it's the kid steven universe and then his three three women who are

are the spirit type superpower forces in him because he's half human and half not human and i'm his human dad who is the goofball and it's funny because it's not the character's not super sexy in a way right and that when i was at comic-con a few years ago in san diego they were just invited me to a panel and then as the dad well i didn't have to go in costume but you were representing the show yes exactly i was representing the comic-con for grown men yes you know the yeah the thing where i know yeah this entire city of san diego was overrun by you know where the the padres the baseball team was just like, we can't have games this week because the city is overrun by people. Man children, women children.

Dressed like Darth Vader. Yeah. It's like Hackney to even make jokes about. I have no sense of it because there would be no reason for me to ever go down there. I've detached almost entirely from the nerd community, by the way. I think that's a fair move at this point. I felt disingenuous about it. There was a period there where I thought it necessary

that I go out into the world and do the meltdown shows and do the alt rooms that were nerd-based. And I realized that I'm not one of them. I'm not the opposite of them. I'm not a bro or a bad guy or a jock or a villain to them. But I certainly do not have the same interests as these people and were you did you feel like you were feigning it at any point no but or what what would make what would be the overlap in the venn diagram of me and nerds yeah well i think we're fundamentally sensitive people but they seem to be interested

in a lot of different specific things that require a lot of attention i don't have that type of focus i can't get that involved with anything a comic book series like i crap out pretty early do you know what i mean give me two or three of them i get the idea i'm good i don't need to feed that habit like that yeah and be need to feed that habit like that yeah and be going back to the comic book store every wednesday i didn't grow up with it i don't i'm more concerned with people uh liking me in a in a real way than finding a group of people that do the same weird thing i do sure rather than just having interests and then you never have to talk about who you actually are no i don't yeah i'm the opposite of that yeah i'd like to talk about who i am and not about number seven of uh of stupid man yeah you don't it's a well number

seven is a pretty good issue though i, I have to say. Stupid man. Isn't that the one where he gets really stupid? That's the one where he can't get stupid. He loses his powers, and then he's not sure what to do. And then, thankfully, he gets bit by a radioactive stupid bug. The death of stupid man. stupid bug yeah the death of stupid man it's oh now i i understand as a kid i would i i read comic books as a kid and then i would just it was this tug of war between music and comic books for a stretch and then i was just like no i just like music i don't like comic books anymore when I did this

comic-con a thing for Steven Universe and we then afterwards they were they said okay they'll do autographs at one of the tables and so it's me and all the other voices at the table and the creator of the show. And I was, people were bringing these posters up that they sold. And then they would look at me and be like, I don't think I want you to sign this thing. And I literally at one point said to somebody, I'm that, you know, I'm that guy on the poster. I do the voice of him. Do you want me to sign your poster? And he's just like, yeah, I don't think so.

And I'm at this thing. And everything I've done with the best show and all this stuff, carried like zero currents. Like I had no clout. You were nobody. It was like being in a different country where it's just like, don't you know who I am? I'm worth something. People don't understand.

I'm Tom Sharpling from the best show. Yeah, I've got value. If I was at a record store, Oh my God. it'd be a different story i'd be talking to everybody yeah be a celebrity but it was it was demeaning oh it was i was so i was the lowest person on that uh on that that panel who they want to sign just a kid they wanted the kid and and rebecca sugar who created the show they wanted her to sign? Just the kid? They wanted the kid and Rebecca Sugar, who created the show, they wanted her to sign it,

and the voices of the gems who were the women on the show. And then I was just like, it would be like if you were getting the autograph of everybody on, like, Three's Company, and then you're just like, I don't think I want Larry, the next-door neighbor, to sign the thing. It reminded me of this thing. I went to go see Lou Reed signing records at Strawberry Records in Kenmore Square.

I've told that story a million times. Oh, I love this. You can please tell it to me. It's my favorite. I've talked about this with John Worcester. We've talked about- About me making an impact? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Waiting in line. So like, yeah, I'm going down there and I'm going to meet Lou. What album is out now? Probably new sensation. Okay. So he's back. This is Lou.

Lou's comeback as a moped salesman. Yeah. I go down there and I'm like, I see the line and I get online behind the guy wearing the white jumpsuit. Tall, awkward-looking guy, white jumpsuit, got an amp strapped to his back, and he's playing guitar. He's playing Velvet Underground's greatest hits online. I could have spaced it out a little bit, but maybe there's one person in between us,

but that was what I was following. So we make our way up the stairs into strawberry and i see that's lou and whoever the band was for new sensations i don't know who they were there's like three or four okay this is what reminded me though sure of the person you know saying no i don't want you to sign that yeah so i'm like what am i going to say to lou that's going to be memorable it's going to have an impact and i'm thinking and i'm thinking and then i get up to who i got a car i've got transformer and i've got the new sensations which i didn't care about so they they you know i got the two records and then you know the the guys from the band they start signing that's moving towards lou there's like three other dudes and And they're signing New Sensations. And I'm like, okay, well, they're on that record.

And then they take Transformer. Then the fucking bass player from New Sensations just signs Transformer. I'm like, you just ruined it. You were not on Transformer, stupid. And you just scribbled on my record. That's all you did. If anyone goes, who's that guy? I'm not even going to know your name.

I don't know who you are. It's not likeie was next to lou reed no and he decided to throw his signature on it yeah why'd you sign ronson fucking so that bothered me but it didn't distract me from my mission at ham which was to connect with lou directly yeah and i look at lou i go uh he goes how you doing man i go like Lou, what gauge pick do you use? What? I think he said medium, right? He did. He said medium.

I know the stories. It's my favorite story. I was so thrilled. Yeah. You got to use a medium. And I did for years. No more. No more.

Those days are over. When Lou died, I gave up mediums. Yeah. Had to. He took mediums he could have thrown a medium pick in his uh and it's over lou yeah from here on out out of respect for you no more mediums for me i'm hanging it up yeah i'm hanging it up but i'd play i'm on a cartoon i'm on harvey beaks i i did one episode of adventure time i played a non-flying squirrel and i get like a lot some good feedback for that people were surprised they know our voices I'm on Harvey Beaks. I did one episode of Adventure Time. I played a non-flying squirrel. And I get some good feedback for that.

People are surprised. They know our voices. That's the funniest thing, is when people are surprised about it. They're like, holy shit, that's Marin. So I did one episode of Adventure Time. But then I have a recurring character on Harvey Beaks. Okay. Randall.

He's a cranky raccoon. uh basically he owns a business a store that has whatever's necessary for an episode to move through it like i can sell anything at the store i i rent things i sell things i can repair things and my mother lives uh with me so there's a little bit of that what what voice do you use pretty much this one really just go i just yell more right it's brighter i brighten it up like have you ever been in the room with those real voice guys i've seen i've never i don't think i've ever been in a room where one of them is doing their thing yeah but i've i've seen enough of watching them be interviewed and watching them when they slide into the yeah thing it's really to know you're not one of those guys it's kind of comforting to

to not have that skill try to i think would to try to find that gear and then be like what would be worse to not to try to find it and not have it or to try to find it and find it and then suddenly you're like oh like you're you're just talking smart like when they go into like those are my favorite of wts there's been a couple i think when you've talked to uh somebody doing impressions and they slide into things and you're just you can hear you you just kind of riding it out like anytime you want to go back to the normal voice i'm ready to talk to that person again but it is for that moment though it is kind of impressive how they could just go into it but to watch it is sort of freakish yeah i i don't know how far out i could go with the thing because

you just to me you're doing the thing and you there's the one guy running the board on the other side and he's just like yeah they punch in can you give us one more of those and you have to like look at that guy watch you do voices and stuff right as he's marking it down number four i'd just be like i don't think i could do that voice anymore this guy looks like he thinks i'm an asshole you've decided he's disappointed yeah the board ops disappointed he i'm bumming him out like he doesn't want he doesn't want me to keep doing this it is a pretty easy way to earn some money though but you sing i sing on the show and it's really uh it's something else because but hasn't that

been a dream of yours to sing you know to do music not really no i knew pretty early on i was not gonna cut it with that i just uh to me the the if i wrote a song that was like a sincere song it would be one of the last things i would do because there's there's no way i could go forward with after all of the all of the mocking i've done of everything and suddenly i was just like hey i just uh here's the song i wrote uh i don't know where it came from yeah it's time it's just i'm just writing something. The people are just laughing. They probably laugh louder when I'm doing like, oh, this is the funniest thing yet. This dumb song.

It's like, no, I was actually showing you my heart. Your version of Cats in the Cradle. Yeah, exactly. Maybe I'm not made for these times or something. I don't know. Who the fuck is? Right? Doesn't it feel like?

I can't take it anymore. I don't know what I'm going to, you know, I don't know who the fuck is right doesn't it feel like i can't take it anymore i don't know what i'm gonna you know i don't know you know i'm at this place now where i'm like now what do i do because aren't i done yeah you're doing carnegie hall yeah it'll sell out yeah you're gonna do a sold-out show yeah at carnegie hall why not stop i've i've no problem stopping i stopped my show it seems to be a thing that people are into gaffigan stopped his show to just say we don't i'm good because what's the goal past that i guess you have to be kevin hart then and not that i'm putting i think kevin hart's really funny, but to just go, it's not even about comedy after a point. No, I'm not like that.

I'm not even like Louie in that. Like, you know, I still have in my brain, like, there's a place where, like, don't I get to do nothing at the end of this? I don't know why I have that but the issue i'm having and i and again i don't i don't garner a lot of sympathy for this is that um uh really my problem is what do i do with my life now that the struggle has lessened a lot you feel bad for me um i don't feel bad for you, but I understand that dynamic. I think one of the unhappiest stretches of my life was when I was writing on the TV show Monk. And I was like four years in, and I thought that a job was... I had been waiting for a job for so long that i thought it was going to fix everything and i was just like well that's what's on the other side of the line if i can

just get that then everything else falls into place yeah and literally nothing fell into place and i was just like wait this is what i had pinned everything on was that it would suddenly all get fixed somehow and it's like nothing got fixed and then you're in a thing where you're the no no one wants to hear someone with a job complain about stuff because people don't have jobs it's it's it's yeah it's gross well yeah and and my thing is that I have no desire to play arenas. That sounds horrible to me. And also, I guess I could probably have, I probably got a movie in me maybe to write,

but I don't feel like doing it really. And the other thing is I don't spend money. Like I haven't changed my life at all. Like people ask me, why aren't you upgrading? I'm like, why? I don't have a wife. I don't have children. I don't want to worry about a nicer automobile.

I can't even get the work that I need to get done on the house I have now done. I'm excited that I can afford dinner everywhere without even thinking about it. I can go to a supermarket, get a bunch of groceries. I don't even check prices. If it's what you want, you get it. I'm just going to get it. I'll get the good ketchup. I don't give a shit.

Yeah, that's a bad example. What other ketchup are you going to get? There's one ketchup. Even if you saw a good ketchup, you're like, I'm not going to get that ketchup. Is that Mark Maron? Look at him. He's checking those ketchups out.

He's looking at the hunts. He just set it down. No one's going to get hunts ketchup. Now he's holding the Heinz. Of course. And now he's going up. He's going up to the shelf he's got wait he's taking that ketchup he can't afford that ketchup that must be like five dollars that bottle of ketchup

the fancy mason jar ketchup yeah but it is it is such a tricky thing because your your struggle to just kind of get to where you got is pretty well documented and you've talked about but there's that point where what are you supposed to do now it's like it's like when people wish that bob dylan died on that motorcycle just like well that would have been the best version of the story he did blonde on blonde and he's dead now it's just like that's kind of how look i'm a huge bob dylan fan but all things considered i kind of wish he died on that motorcycle it would have been a much better story and we wouldn't have empire burlesque the worst thing about people living a long time is just that the story continues and fewer and fewer people give a shit. You know, it gets to a point where it's like, what happened to Bob Dylan?

I don't know, he just dropped dead on stage in the middle of a song. No one knew what it was. Yeah, it's a minor league baseball stadium. Right. A fairground. Yeah, exactly. It's like, we didn't know what to do it's he was playing or maybe should not have been playing a town this small yeah there was we don't have a hospital here everybody'd be upset and then you know people would tweet it and they'd

be like what a horrible year 2016's been i'm like that generation's gonna go yeah but like i tell you though i i do find when i listen to a bowie song now that it i'm sad like i'm happy about the song but every but now you're sort of like wow he really was amazing yeah it's i mean i always felt that way but now it's even better well now you can just see the body of work as what it is because the book is closed. Right. And it's like somebody could slide the story of this person to you and it has a beginning, a middle, and an end now. But I haven't listened to the last record or really taken in the design of his own out, his own death note. his own uh his own death note yeah i listened to it one time and it was so i thought it was so intense that it was just something i was like i i will come back to this another time really it's

just i thought it was the heaviest thing imaginable to really to just control your art to that degree and to tell to have your life and to have art be the same yeah to where this is the level that this is how you make your art that when it's when you're checking out your art reflects you so it's all there i thought yeah i i thought it was but look you can infuse anything with meaning after somebody dies, but I thought this, he clearly knows what's coming. Because he's ill. He's been sick. Oh, my God.

So what do you do now? Think about this. I'm putting together that last record. So this is going to be... What if the Carnegie Hall show is the most morose show? It's like, I think Mark is dying. Oh, my God. What's happening?

Why is he talking about this so much? Well, I'm going to do some acting. I just got cast in that Glow show. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah. That's exciting. Yeah, I'm going to be the one man, it seems, amongst the 14 women. You know, is it?

That's great. Yeah, it was like, you know, I'm surprised they cast me. The description was he's got a cocaine problem. He sort of like didn't really live up to what he was supposed to do. He's kind of a schlock movie director. He has a problem with women. So somehow I got the part. I'm excited to try acting without having to worry about it being me or me writing it or producing it.

It sounds like it might be fun. I'd like to have a good time. That's what I'm looking for. That's all. Okay. You can do it. I want to play guitar. I'd like to have a good time that's what i'm looking for i'm that's all okay you can do it i want to play guitar i'd like to play music with some people that's another big dream is to like and these are things like that i could do like rent a space put one on hold for four weekends in a row yeah and then you know just you know go play but you know how that goes maybe you don't you know if you're amateur guitar player and then you know how that goes. Maybe you don't. You know, if you're an amateur guitar player,

and then maybe I'll get some other amateurs, and there's like a room full of me and maybe Bill Burr on drums or maybe some other comics, and then you get into one groove, and then you try to do a cover of something that I don't know. I'm not a cover guy. Like, in my mind, to play music, I'd like to find a groove, lay into it, do it like endless boogie style. Just sort of like,

let's see if we can find something and just do it. But then I get nervous. Like, is the drummer bored? Like, does the bass player need more? And, and they're like,

but they're like, no, this is what we do. Yeah. That's why they chose the base is because they're like, yeah, I'll, I'll lay back over in this corner and just do this.

Yeah. You go. And, uh, but I haven't done that yet. So I to do that and yeah you can there's well what about you but there's like chapters with it you i think you put the carnegie hall thing feels like it just like because i think about when i saw i'm downplaying it i'm down okay well i don't want to build it i don't want to you can't build it up to. Go ahead. But I think about when I saw you. I hadn't seen you. I saw you at Luna Lounge all the time.

And then there was a stretch where you just weren't in New York as much. And I wasn't seeing as much comedy. So maybe I was missing you when you were here. But then I saw you at a show that was way like on like hudson street there was a place and there was like a show that paul f tompkins and janine garofalo were hosting a thing does that ring a bell and then you came up and i was like oh mark maron's here whoa i haven't seen him in a while and it was i think it And I think it was the stretch where you were in the woods when you talk about, I don't know what's next there.

And you could feel it seeing you perform. You could feel that this guy doesn't have both hands on the steering wheel. You were fighting. Was it like a fight? At that were fighting it was like if it wasn't like a fight yeah like at that point was that like a oh yeah it was like you know what these people want is this what you want fuck you you know like yeah like you know you're not gonna like me you know like i don't remember what it was i was always i was so threatened by by all of them it's like you know oh you guys all have your shit together so i i just i remember

just being dead in the water before i even got out on stage before and that it kind of felt like that i mean it was still it just was like it was like you were something preceded you like like this cloud rolled out and then you went under it yeah yeah you can't like you're just like oh my cloud's out there already i gotta get out there now to suck the energy out of the room now that we've got a nice groove going let's have mark come out and make everybody wonder why they're here and then the person after you is like i gotta go on after yeah the cloud can you get rid of the cloud yeah could somebody get the cloud upstage But that's like a different person now. Like that person, and it doesn't seem like you're going back to that thing

where you're trying to just like, where's the fight? And then you're not manufacturing fights. Well, that's really the issue is that most of it was, like I still have some struggles, as you do as well, I would imagine. But we're also two people that have invested a lot in our struggle. I mean, that's the nature of our voice. I mean, we're different, but if you and I didn't have something to go up against, for me, it's me. For you, it's everything else.

Yeah. I'm pretty happy with myself actually that's the that might be the key difference between us is like you were just like what's wrong with me was your first question the first thing you'd ask minus what's wrong with everybody but me i wish i was more like that i'm getting a little more. Because along those lines, it's like, yeah, what's wrong with me? And why can't I be more like that guy? Like, how is that guy winning? Why is he winning?

Why is it easy for him? Why is it easy for those? Well, those are all my questions. Then we just go into. I don't talk about that, though. Because for me, it's just hatred. It becomes jealousy and contempt it's there there's no sort of endearing voice around it you know it's just fuck that guy yeah

so when you had that like when things started to go better and you got the podcast going yeah was it was it just like like layers falling off of the the yeah what started to happen was it took me a while to get over the fact that like you know like i i'm a comedian i didn't set out to be an interviewer that was a hurdle when people were like i like your show be like what which part like what show which one the comedy or the well you know i'm a comedian too yeah that thing yeah i stopped giving a shit and i just started to realize like this is something i'm good at what it really came down to is like you want to feel like you accomplish something that people respect and enjoy and it has some you know some relevance and you know that was a big burden off

like you know like it was just a vindication is that the word i want where like all this work though it didn't happen the way i thought, has, you know, I've done something. I've accomplished something. I've achieved something. Like, you know, I've left something. I've given people a thing. A lot of people get a lot out of it. And that makes me feel good.

And I can earn a living. Yeah. Do you feel like you needed just a little bit of it to make you feel like I can start letting go of some of this stuff? Like a little bit of that validation? I can start letting go of some of this stuff? Like a little bit of that validation? Well, the weird thing is that I've spent so long talking about me. Now I find that on stage, I'm talking a little bit more about other things.

That's happening sort of naturally. Okay. I can put myself in my experience, but it implies a bigger thing. I'm more relatable. Okay. you said that like andy kindler oh no like that's just happening naturally because i don't think because i spent so much time in my head and so much time being angry and resentful and and you know working really hard trying to do something that i became insulated that i don't know that that's maybe that's everybody's struggle but it's sort of like just do it what do you keep whining and yelling about shit for i don't know i just wonder has it all been just some prolonged

and persistent attempt at self-medicating has this entire journey just been for me to feel okay if that's the path and it's just like if you can get here you will feel okay i think that's a pretty good deal right that's all then it seems like that seems to be a lot of what i was working for it's like i don't want to make a fortune you know i i'd like to you know make a living yeah but ultimately i'd like to make a living. Yeah. But ultimately, I'd like to feel okay about myself. And now, like, I feel okay about myself. So now what do I do? Is that the next record? Hey, I'm all right.

Yeah. This one's going to be a little shorter, everybody. That's when it becomes, hey, it's me and six new comedians. I want to tell you all, I want you to meet these guys. You're all doing pretty good. I'm going to talk for about eight minutes tonight in the show. But things still fucking aggravate me. And I still find that a lot of the same buttons that I always had are still there.

I still have these moments of complete resentment and not quite jealousy, but just sort of like, ugh, fuck that guy i mean like it's like it's but is it is are you saying fuck that guy because you he has something that you want or is it because i think they're full of shit yeah it's just frauds yeah that's well that's the one that gets me is when suddenly same guy um probably i bet you if we wrote i bet you if we wrote a piece of paper we wrote 10 i'm gonna we wrote i bet you if we wrote a piece of paper we wrote 10 i'm gonna write i'm gonna write a name on a piece of paper and uh and you just tell me see this is see now we're being diplomatic yeah like if we like yeah that's the one i would

have written that would have been number one on my list also oh yeah there it is that's the guy the one guy i might as well print up a fucking pad with that on it okay here we come and then this is the one for me that would be right after the one yeah oh my god yeah like's, like, I haven't seen much of him. Like, you know, he's off of my radar somehow. Here's who I'm okay with. I'm okay with him now. Oh, okay. Well, that's good.

Not great, but, you know, there's a, you know, we've gotten some peace. I guess I can mention his name. Kumail and I have somehow mended. I like Kumail. I saw Kumail one time on a plane when he was in first class, and then I had to keep hoofing it back with the steerage. Yeah. It's like, hey, man, how's it going? And it's just like, look, the exhausted flyers behind me just like, we got to sit down.

It's just like, this is not time for you to talk to your fancy friend in first class. Just like that thing where I'm just like, no, maybe I'll see you by the luggage carousel. Yeah, I'll see you after. Because they're going to pull a curtain that's not going to let me. And I'm also not going to slide up beside you halfway during the flight and be like, hey, how's it going? Oh, you're watching something? Oh, it's okay.

Oh, you got a window seat, so I'll talk over this other person. It's like, no, I will maybe see you in the airport. Otherwise, I'll see you somewhere else down the road. One time back a few years ago, Patton sent me nuts back from first. Oh, that's so funny. I guess what it is is that, yeah, because obviously you have to have ambition and persistence to to make it but if i don't see the uh like if i can't feel the whole character you know you must be hiding some horrible monster that's that's driving you like you know there's something duplicitous about it like i can't really hide myself even when i'm being nice

you know people who know me or can see through me enough immediately to to to disarm me they they know who i am but like i know that i can't hide both the bad and the good of who i am i understand that completely i feel like when i get bothered by a certain type of performer their worldview can often be here are all the problems i had it's always had it's like but now i'm solid now yeah like now i'm fixed and this is like a this is a good version of like it's like it's like now i've fixed myself the end and here i am fixed in front of you it's like you're not fixed you're probably more broken than you've ever been in front of you it's like you're not fixed you're probably more broken than you've ever been and you don't realize it and you're just denying how broken you are and five years from now you're going to tell the story about just like five years ago i was a

total mess and i thought i was this but now i'm fixed again and but it's these people just all they do is just say how they're better they think they figured it out yeah i'm done yeah i fixed myself i'm great now and you gotta like me because i'm great and i'm i'm totally solid and there's nothing wrong with me and so if you have a problem with me it's probably your problem yeah not that i still have a more problems than i ever had yeah and but now i'm just denying the idea that I could not be perfect. And also I think that there's a thing where you and I come from a different, like, I don't think you went down any of the same paths I did personally, felt that you know performing for you know nerd culture was was not really i wasn't being disingenuous i was just being myself but how are they going to really take me in you know like i had this amazing moment you know in

i went over to the to the stages where you know to do wardrobe fitting for this guy. Okay. You know, I'd made certain decisions about him, you know, like character decisions. Now, the two women who wrote these, Carly Mensch and Liz Flajive, I believe is how you say her last name. It's a tricky last name. It's F-L-A-H-I-V-E. Well, anyways, so Carch is is back there with the i was doing wardrobe and i said i said this guy like he does coke but no vials he's strictly a bindle guy strictly you know piece of folded magazine does it with the top of his pen maybe

with a key you know he's in it for for you know that that it's his thing but it's not a thing that he's flashy about it's just it's medicine okay you know he's just that for, you know, it's his thing, but it's not a thing that he's flashy about. It's just, it's medicine. Okay. You know, he's just, that's the kind of coke user he is. Uh-huh. And she looks at me with this moment and she just goes, oh, we're so glad you're here.

This is, it's like. Like, you know, we got a real one. Yeah. Yeah, this guy's the one, he's really this guy. He's like this, he knows this guy. Like, I don't have any shame about that shit. i think sort of the the kind of guys we're talking about is those people that are like i'm okay now i'm okay is that you know what why were you not okay what's what's what happened there you know how do you think you're okay now like they're

you can't just have the one without the other because then you're just a caricature of yourself i think also what doesn't constitute not being famous enough that's not a that's not a problem yeah that's not a problem that's like because your career it's not when you close your eyes you see one thing and then when you open them you see another thing because they're not lined up in terms of how famous you are that you can't call that a struggle. Would you know, see, this is the weird thing, because I haven't changed my life so much and I know, like, I'm just now sort of arriving at the idea, like, you've got a writing gig.

Yeah, I've been writing on a show. And it's a good show. Yeah. And you're having a nice time you're getting paid money to write yep the best show does well yeah i look i i feel like i wish it did more than what it's doing now i feel like we've got a little bit of a closed circle thing going on that i i've tried to not make it a closed circle like I'm not doing. It's not behind a paywall or any of that stuff.

I've tried to make it available to everybody however they want it and it just feels like it's still some, it's almost just too much of a thing. I know it's the thing that I've always done my whole life where it's like you can't explain it in one sentence. So then people just don't check it out because they'll just check out something that they can say whether they want it or not. And that can be summed up in one sentence. It's just like, well, the funny thing is, it's a universe that for years like to dip into it. You know, you're sort of like, well, where do I get started? Well, any number of three hour shows. And I know that's the thing. years like to dip into it you know you're you're sort of like well where do i get started well any

number of three-hour shows and i know that's the thing and i've thought about maybe the show should only be no i'm just saying that the relationship you built with the people that know you is deep and long and and came up in a time where you know they put the three hours aside. And it's not a length thing. It's just that there's people that have grown up with you at this point. Yeah, absolutely. And the bummer is I wish I could just get paid to do this show because it's the thing I like doing more than anything else.

To do this show. Because it's the thing I like doing more than anything else. But it's just the reality. Of reality. Is that it isn't. And I can't. And so. I get paid from other things. That I also like doing.

Or love doing. But it's not the thing I feel like I'm best at. Like I am doing the radio show. So that. I just have to make my peace. that this is forever going to be some sort of compliment to my writing on tv shows and getting work that way when i would love nothing more than for it to just be the thing that that could be my thing. But it just is. And look, these are not big problems.

You're a young man. I'm not equating this with like actual problems. No, I know what you're saying, though. But it is something I have to figure out. Right. Well, I mean, like for me, I didn't know that the podcast would be the main part of my livelihood. And that would be the, the thing that I could rest on and know that was there. If nothing else worked out,

it was sort of opposite. Like I wanted to be a comic who made his living doing just comedy and, and was a big comedy star that wasn't happening. And then the podcast was this thing I did that, like, I had no idea it would become this. And it's fed the comedy. And now I can do these TV things. I had all these opportunities.

But the podcast is the thing I fall back on. I'm proud of it. And I love it. But I was a comic by first and foremost. And it took a couple of years for me to realize, well, I guess I'm this guy who talks to people. Yeah. And it would have been very easy for you to be to have been slid down that path to where you're just well why don't you just keep talking to people and do a thing and then you're doing less comedy and right now where you

don't do comedy anymore and you're the you're the funny guy who you're the guy who does interviews oh he also does comedy yeah that guy's funny yeah i hear he does comedy too yeah exactly yeah well that's still kind of weird it sort of still happens but i get my point being is that we we both do okay and uh and we get to do what we want to do but my question is do we really know that we're okay i don't know. What do you do for your free time? You just listen to records? I'm listening to records. I try to... I'm trying to...

I read a book. What book did you read? Dreamland by Sam Quinones about the opiate epidemic. It's great. I just read the Patty Hearst book, American Heiress. How was that? It was great. It was so exciting and just seeing how insane

that was is that a new book it came out like a month or so ago really yeah so we're reading yeah we're trying and so it's non-fiction we're keeping up trying to get i'm trying to build these muscles up to where i can get back to fiction like when people read like fiction i'm just like i'm like what how do you choose like i'm but i just i i get like a fiction i start reading and i read one sentence i'm just like i don't know what i'm lost after like one sentence sometimes they're just like wait who who is what is going on here it's like and it's like why is this confusing already yeah i'm two pages in i'm still i'm still and like you could just picture the author just being like wait are you that stupid like you're you're not supposed to be

that stupid you can't hang with this thing you're reading too much non i think non-fiction just dulls your ability to read fiction i'm really picky about fiction i'm trying to read the the new dolillo and i just can't but that's exactly the thing where i'm really picky about fiction i'm trying to read the the new delilo and i just can't but that's exactly the thing where i'm just like am i just a lightweight now like i can't that one's even understandable but it's sort of like this must mean much more than i'm getting you know like i'm i'm missing the big picture here i gotta build these muscles back up but what muscles like they make it difficult and then they ride on their reputation as being important and it's sort of like it's pretty sparse like i read dolillo's last book

and i'm like i don't even know what that was about and i finished it i don't know what it's about that feeling of just like there were characters they did things there was a desert i don't know what it's about you're like oh no this is what this is when you just realize like i'm deep into this thing it's not going to suddenly start making sense all of a sudden you're just like this is the thing i don't understand this i missed a lot of something in between this and the last book that made sense to me but then it's you can't just be like then there's that point where it's just like i'm not gonna stop reading this i'm not one of these people's gonna be like i couldn't finish it it's just like no i'm finishing the sure i don't know what's going on but i'm going to look at every page in this thing until there's no more to look at be relieved yeah start doing that page

count where you towards the end you're like how many okay i'm almost there i remember when i when i plowed through uh crime and punishment like because i couldn't handle it in high school but at some point as a relatively grown-up person i'm like i'm gonna do it yeah talking about name problems you're like what who but like but that trains you to like to sort of try to follow the thing. And I liked it. That guy's a good writer, Dostoevsky. I don't know if you've heard of him. I've heard good things. Yeah.

I read Crime and Punishment. And also, and it was one of those things where, God forbid, you put the thing down for three days and then come back to just like, who is these people again? I'm expecting everything to be like an HBO show and start with like a little recap at the top of the thing and show me all the scenes. Yeah, where Skolnikov killed the guy. And these cops, the good cop, bad cop.

Yeah, that feeling when you have to go back. You're just like, I guess I'm starting this book over again. I'm nuts. I'm not too hard on myself. Like, if I can't get through it, I won't get through it. Cause I was like, I know I have it in me.

Cause when I picked up that dream on book, which is, was like, did you read fast food nation? No, it's like fast food nation for heroin. Okay. That's,

but you could have blurbed this. Yeah. But I think a lot of people, you know, still ate McDonald's. Okay. okay you know and they needed to be sort of like really understand why they shouldn't eat mcdonald's sure yeah there's no one going like i don't care i'm still gonna do heroin yeah yeah they're not even gonna get to the book you know like yeah the thing is you're not gonna tell me heroin's bad you don't need

like with food we need some version of food to stay alive. We don't need some version. It's not like, stop with that shitty fast food heroin. Why don't you just go farm to table with the good stuff? Well, that's what they do. That's what the book's about. Black Tar Heroin is definitely farm to table heroin. But I was in it. I was like, I can't put it down.

And I was happy that happened. That happened with me with a couple of John Ronson books, too. But it's nonfiction as well. But there's definitely, he's got a definite point of view. But Quinones was like real journalist stuff. But I tried to read. I watched Fitzgeraldo the other day. Kind of made myself wait that out.

Because I had not seen it in a long time. I don't think I'd ever seen it all the way through. And I interviewed Herzog wait that out because like, I had not seen it in a long time. I don't think I'd ever seen it all the way through. And I interviewed Herzog and I'm like, I didn't watch Fitzgerald though. And like, you know, after about an hour, you're like, this is getting good. You know, like you forget, you have to wait sometimes for art, you know, like art, like, you know, we all think with, we need to be doing it, but you forget that like, well, you gotta be patient, open your mind, try to, you know, let it happen. You know, get rid of your expectations. Don't be hard on yourself.

Yeah. And it's going to take time to get that boat over the hill. With all of it. That is the metaphor for any art. I think that if you were to sum it up, why is Fitzcarraldo good? Because, like, art takes time. It's going to take yeah to get the boat over the hill and and then it's ultimately not gonna mean much because someone else's agenda

someone else's mystical agenda is gonna undermine your big understanding of things and that is that is one of the craziest i didn't get the i didn't hear your herzog interview yet yeah it um but just that idea of like could somebody have literally lived the movie more than that you talk about david bowie living the art and the art being the life and it's just like you watch burden of dreams and it's just like they they are the same movie it's the it's the craziest thing of just like well here's he's telling the story of getting the boat over the hill and that's his fiction thing now here's a documentary about it about the story of getting the boat over the hill, and that's his fiction thing. Now here's a documentary about it, about Herzog getting the boat over the hill.

You know what fascinates me more than anything else with anybody that does something that requires, you know, that could possibly result in what you and I are talking about, which is like, you know, I'm a smart guy, and I don't know what the fuck is going on, is that that commitment. Like, you know, like that guy committed

however long of his life to that story, you know, that most people don't give a fuck about. Most people in the world, I don't know what movie you're talking about, but that, you know, like that was his life. People who make movies in general,

especially personal movies, where you're like, and when you realize how long it takes just to get the thing off the ground, that commitment, you know, it really makes you sort of like well i i have to reckon with this i have to as a viewer as a taker in of all things intelligent i think have to sort of like give him due process yeah because this is not a small right and that's that's the other thing it just feels like i keep at this point in my life i keep feeling like it's like like is there a big do i get do i'm gonna do one big thing or is

everything gonna be is this radio show the big thing am i doing it now once one one week at a time and you turn around it's like no that was your big thing yeah like if you find out like wtf yeah that was your big thing you're if you find out like wtf yeah that was your big thing you're just like wait what was when do i do my big thing but you did it but you were i was talking to you right about with almost everything now was it who did you tell me jason walner said that that a movie is like a tweet yeah yeah he said there's no difference in a there's no difference between a movie and a tweet. Right. At this point. What are we going to do about that? I don't know.

I think we've got to play by a different reality. We have to say that that's not reality. I can't take it anymore. What I've been saying lately is that I think it was better when not everyone had a voice. Look, I don't know if I'd go that far i like well i'm saying it in a specific context obviously i i believe in democracy and that everyone should have a voice but maybe not a twitter account maybe i should not have to engage with every voice you don't though i know you don't. I think maybe let's reframe it. I'm mad at the shallow, witless, and sometimes cruel nature of the voices that feel like they deserve to be heard. Is that better? Sure.

No, that makes sense. It used to be that from the second humans existed until 12 years ago, you'd think a thought and it would just stay in your head and the worst thing you could think is like well what if i let that go from my brain to my mouth yeah in terms of the people you're in front of and for like for all of time people would just let the things either stay in their brain or maybe say it in a group of people. But then now it goes from your brain to your fingers. Right. And everybody's in a panic to say the thing as quickly as possible.

Things like whether the thought is formed or not or whether it's like, well, maybe that's a mean thing and this actually might hurt somebody. That's why sometimes I'll just tweet shower. now just i can't do twitter anymore i tweet jokes once in a while and i i'm just like i've pulled back i delete them why do you delete them because i just feel like it's not why does this company say that this thing is a permanent record of something? That's their business model, not mine. Sometimes you want to say something and you don't want it to stick around more than a day. That's their problem. That's why they have Snapchat, apparently.

So that things can stay for a day and then they're gone. And they're gone, yeah. And I understand that. I won't do it. I can't do Snapchat. I've seen it and it's not for me. There's a point where you just have to go, I'm going to sit this one out.

Basically, Twitter is now just like some open mic night that some company set up, and you go up to there. They're just like, they set it up. It's like, hey hey look who wandered in here for free it's like hey we got mark maron's here tonight uh he's gonna be putting on a show fighting with not that good yeah that one tonight mark maron fighting with with some with eggs about nothing yeah and he's doing it for our on our stage it's like for free yeah how much you get paid there mark oh nothing and you couldn't sleep because you were still mad but thank you for contributing to our company for that it's like everybody's dancing on make sure to live

tweet your insomnia yeah yeah that's what that's what it is that's all anyone's doing is live tweeting their insomnia yeah it's such a i feel this was funny this woman wrote uh i guess she writes for maybe kim or some molly mcnerny mcnerny yeah she tweeted we've given everyone an opportunity to express themselves online for a very long time now what's plan b that's that's great that's yeah that's the best tweet i've read in a long time because like what's like think about this like 30 years from now it's like grandpa what did you do when his thing well you should have seen i used to go on this thing and you know these celebrities had these accounts and i'd go on and just uh chip away at them until i finally reel one in and there was one time when i was arguing with uh you should have seen it it was like like those are the things he got all

worked up yeah he deleted his account it's so great that was the one it's like it's like it's like the new hole in one it's like like getting somebody to delete their account because you just wouldn't stop. Annoying them. Yeah. Well, you know, it was different then. It was fun. Yeah. Now we don't know what to do with ourselves.

That's true. It took me a long time to frame it like that. That no matter how insanely cruel it became or how ridiculously hurtful that it was just some idiot trying to get you to fucking lose your mind. Yeah. It's the opposite. It just goes back to that thing where the opposite of love is not hate. It's just disinterest.

And it's like, that's the true opposite of love. So it's just like, no hate is hate and love. It's just attention. It's just like, you're, you're making somebody's levels spike.

Yeah. And it's just like, I feel something. Like, he's mad. Yeah, yeah. I got him. Here we go. I got him. Oh, you got a big one there.

Yeah. You think you have a system of dealing with it through engagement, and then it just never pans out. And then there's the inevitable two years go by then. Hey, will you unblock me? Like they, you're doing something somewhere else. I said something to you while going,

it wasn't really what I meant. Sure it was. It's exactly what you meant. I don't unblock them. I'll unblock them. You do? Yeah. I had this one time's exactly what you meant. I don't unblock them. I'll unblock them. You do? Yeah. I had this one time I thought, like I said,

I think I'm just going to unblock everybody. And I think Doug Benson said, bad idea. Don't be, because you're like, why? Yeah. That's like a Batman movie where it's just like somebody throws a switch and the Arkham Asylum opens and everybody runs out at once like oh no what we do the city's overrun by super villains

all at the same time and now you can hear what they're all saying i i think it's just old manny of me on some ways, but like obviously I'm being somewhat sarcastic, but I like there's a, there's part of me that misses the days when there's just three networks and not all the information was out there. It wasn't out there, you know? And,

and, and certainly the, the, the behind the scenes information wasn't the mainstream of what information was, or just the gossip and speculation wasn't what the mainstream information was it's like you know you can really isolate yourself no one needs to be on the same page anymore and it used to be okay in a way maybe we didn't know some shit but at least we were kind

of talking about the same thing culturally i i would agree if it doesn't mean that there's just like this veil of evil going on that like when people are just like yeah you know they are right beating the shit out of people when we just don't talk about we just don't know obviously the i think the give and take of that no i think that like i'd like journalism and and you know that that element of sort of um And that element of sort of guerrilla journalism and people taking it upon themselves to sort of seek justice and stuff, that's sort of a good part of the internet. That stuff that's really revealing injustice and hypocrisy is great. percent of it that is just uh positing false information conspiracy theories and bullshit and then people who are just working people's desires and anger into a froth for certain reasons on purpose i you know maybe uh maybe i just can't wrap my brain around the whole thing but you also can just say this this isn't the real world it's just it's it's it's real until

you say it's not real and then it's like okay it turns out it wasn't real yeah how about that i could just get off twitter yeah and after maybe a month i wouldn't even think about it anymore and then you'll just be like oh okay there's all these other things how about that when are we going to do that i started it's going very slowly. I'm not on Facebook anymore. Yeah, I just don't go there. Twitter, I don't see what people tweet anymore. I have a tweet deck thing set up, so I just see what people will tweet to me. To you, okay.

So you're weaning yourself, maybe. Yeah, and I don't even know how good of a promotional thing it is when that whole that seems like something twitter created oh no it's like you don't like you don't know what someone's feed looks like if they're following 2 000 people and you're like i'm gonna be in denver yeah and then like you know 90 people from denver like i didn't know you were coming i'm like i tweeted it i'm like sorry i'm following 2 000 people yeah it's pretty quick when did you expect me to track that? Like I'm scrolling through everything.

Okay, when did he tweet that? Well, he's in Los Angeles, so I should go. He tweeted, I was asleep when he. There's so much bullshit to the numbers in general. This is real life right out here, Tom. That's where it is. Just behind those windows people on their sad couches yeah it's it's it's okay to not live on the computer and that's i would i'm

thinking i've been i've been contemplating it's like i went i went with my mother to uh to nashville a month ago it's just me and my mother to Nashville a month ago. It was just me and my mother. We went for a few days because she had never been. And I was like, I'll take you and I'll show you the city. But she just has like this phone that just makes phone calls. And I guess she could text on it if she wanted. Yeah.

But I was like, yeah, I think I like your phone better than mine. Like, my phone, first of all, is a terrible phone. Like, iPhones, they're bad as phones. Yeah. It's like there's a definite rollback in phone quality. It's like. You can't lay down with them no it's just because then your voice breaks up it's where does that do it happen on yours too when you lay down people like i can't

understand you can't i have this iphone 6s i guess this was six plus or whatever and it's just like i've never had more people say like i can't hear you right now i can't hear you right now. I can't hear you. It's like, what is a newer phone? Okay, that's great. They didn't space the thing out to where I can hear you and talk to you. It doesn't line up with a human head. You're holding a book to your head. Something the size of a paperback. Yeah, so there's a definite rollback in that. They're not.

One of these phones, now they got rid of the headphone jack in the next iPhone. It's just like, yeah, there's no headphone jack in it. We won't use wireless headphones. I don't want to use wireless. What about these $300 Bose headphones I bought? Oh, I can't use those with my iPhone anymore. I guess I have to hook them. Yeah, but there's just going to be...

An iPhone's going to come out and they're going to be like, yeah, there's no phone on this one this time. Like, they're just going to eventually decide they don't want people making phone calls anymore. Just like, no, there's no phone. We eliminate the phone part of the iPhone. Only texting. Well, I was just home in New Mexico where, you know, I was talking to friends of mine from high school. And it's just the idea that, you know, I live down down the valley which is far from my other friends but there was no fucking

internet there was no there was no fucking cell phones like you had to call someone at home and go oh hi mrs meter is yeah is connor there and you're like okay i'll hold on hey what are you doing all right i'll meet you up at the place and that was it that was the last time you communicate with anybody until you went and found them. Yeah. What were you doing? Yeah. Imagine you're at a rock show and you all got out of the car and somebody gets separated. Now you're just like, I really hope I remember what color shirt he was wearing because I don't know. We're not going to find him again.

I hope he remembers where the car is after because i guess i'm not seeing you yeah exactly and then but then somebody's like sitting on the hood of the car for two hours where were you just wanted like i've been sitting here the whole time i didn't see any of the bands i thought we were gonna hang out yeah just like was like, that's what it was like. It's just like, you couldn't. And that guy's got that story. The other side of that story. Those assholes, they took off.

They're in that thing watching everything. Like, I'm stuck here in the car with the thing. It's my car. They have the keys. He drove. I can't even get in my own car. That's what we're missing now. That doesn't happen anymore.

Sitting alone, stewing. Because now, if you went to meet somebody and they just didn't show up, you used to just have to go. It's been an hour. How long am I going to sit here? and they're not gonna know i left and it's just like you're just playing this the mystery and no phone to look at yeah just you and your imagination like what the fuck happened what did i do staring at a placemat on a table yeah just now i'm not ready to order yet i've still won for one other person's supposed to be coming just i know i'm not ready to order yet i've still one for one other person's supposed to be coming just i know i'm tying this table up now and then you're just like i guess i gotta go

yeah okay i'll just buy a coffee to go yeah yeah coffee to go oh great thanks yeah yeah all right buddy it's good it's always good to talk to you it is laughing my ass off we're doing good yeah just this is one thing i i think it's like just because you don't have everything doesn't mean you don't have anything right it's like i have plenty right a lot to be grateful for yes i do have a lot to be grateful i try to be grateful and sometimes i can't sometimes i can get so in touch with being grateful and it's just it's just so comfortable it. Yeah. And then there's other times where it's just like, I cannot feel the gratitude. No.

It's just like. No. No. It's a horrible injustice. What do you want me? Like, I just get irritated with. Try having a little. You should just think about what you've got.

I don't have anything. That's the problem. Like, I do think about that. And I have literally nothing. And then you go look at your records and then i'm gonna go into my car okay well there's one thing you have that there's hundreds of thousands of people in america just saying like a car if i only had a car right i could go get that job and then yeah i could get out of this house where it's a living hell in here. Meanwhile, I'm just like, I'm going to get my car

and just go my stupid car that's filthy in the back seat because I had all that stuff I was throwing out all over the back seat. So I will try more gratitude. Alright, talk to you later. See ya! FBI CIA FBI

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