WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - "The Nominees Are..." - A WTF Compilation

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

A special compilation of this year's Oscar nominees talking about their nominated works. Hear excerpts from Marc's interviews with Michelle Yeoh, Daniels, Brendan Fraser, Hong Chau, Austin Butler, Andrea Riseborough, Sarah Polley, Todd Field, Rian Johnson, Judd Hirsch and Tony Kushner. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

so look folks if you've been listening to this show since the beginning of this show you know that we always talk about the oscars i mean every year it is a cultural constant on this show because i i reminisce about the old Oscars. I, I, I am excited. I'm always excited at the pageantry of the Oscars. Uh,

in fact, we just did a bonus episode about the Oscars for full Marin subscribers. I talked with Brendan about the history of the Academy Awards, and we went through some of the best picture winners that are still very important to us. Forrest Gump, Schindler's List, Unforgiven, The Silence of the Lambs, that are still very important to us forest gump schindler's list unforgiven the silence of the lambs and dances with wolves this was extremely tough for

me between two movies boy you know i gotta go with unforgiven that was my i was between that and silence and i. Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. It was really hard, but I had to really think, if both of these were on at the same time, and I could only watch one, which would it be? Yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, I will watch The Unforgiven any time I come upon it, and I'll watch it on purpose uh at least once a year

because again Hollywood uh studying film you know westerns in general uh it's like one of the most satisfying movies ever made that yeah well and very very rewarding from that perspective of a as a deconstruction sure of the tradition yeah exactly smart movie but silence i i i like that movie i love it but you know i noticed too is that i think i'm a bit of a sucker for like um the performances within movies that have hooks right like i will go back to that movie over and over again because i just want to see what Hopkins did. I want to see what Foster did. What about Levine? Yes.

Ted Levine? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was weird because I remember having a conversation with some woman who thought that Anthony Hopkins was so interesting in that movie. And I'm like, what about Ted Levine? And she's like, oh, gross.

And I'm like, what? I mean, I will say, I think I'm somewhat, like there's part of me that I'm like, what? But I mean, I will say, I think I'm somewhat, like there's part of me that I'm buttressing up against the fact that like for a long time, like friends of mine and I

would like do the Buffalo Bill voice to each other. And I start to wonder, am I like, am I enjoying this for the wrong reason? Like, do I just like it because I want to be able to go,

oh, she's a great big fat person to somebody else? Well, I just, there were moments in his performance that were truly what they would call cringe now. But in retrospect,

you know, he just showed a profound disturbing vulnerability. Like, I really think he stepped on the wire. He was out on the wire with that performance. Whereas, you know, as interesting as Anthony Hopkins was, you know, he was an alpha monster.

Whereas, you know, Ted is this strange, you know, amorphous, sexually, you know, fucked up person, you know, trying to complete himself in some weird way. To me, I was like, wow. And Jodie Foster is genius. You know, and I love that movie, but I have to be honest. I mean, I'll, I watch The Unforgiven over and over again. If just that watch, you know, Clint Eastwood walk into that bar and shoot that guy.

He didn't do anything. And dumb little, what's his name? Oh, Saul Rubinick. Oh, Saul Rubinick. Yeah, Saul Rubinick. You know, like, I'm shot. I'm shot. Didn't you see that guy, like, on the bench outside your hotel or something? Yeah, he wasn't very nice.

He said, I'm a big fan. He's like, meh. All right. Sorry. If you want to hear us go through several decades of Best Picture winners back to the 60s and get into the dubious origins of the Oscars as well, listen to the rest of that episode on The Full Marin, which you can subscribe to by clicking on the link in the episode description. But right now,

we'll get you prepped for the Oscars this Sunday with this compilation of talks I had with this year's Oscar nominees. You can go back and listen to the full episodes with these 12 nominees whenever you want. But we figured, why not put the conversations about their nominated work all in one place? So first, we'll hear clips from my interviews with Michelle Yeoh, the Daniels, Daniel Kwan, and Daniel Scheinert about everything, everywhere, all at once. Michelle is nominated for Best Actress, and the Daniels are nominated for best picture, best director and best original screenplay. It was doing crazy rich Asians when I was doing the press and things like this set and I was sent this script and I read it and you know, I've been in the business long enough to go, holy freaking hell, this could be This could be, it's so wacky.

It's so out there. You know how we always say, I want something that's original. Come on. Totally original. And also plays to all your strengths, respects where you're at in your career now, gives you an opportunity to do a dramatic role with some depth, and sort of addresses the idea of you're not an Asian. some depth and sort of addresses the idea of you're not an Asian, you're an actor, a woman with a specific situation that is not uncommon to many women of all kinds. And yet there's this whole other element to it and you have the skill set to do it. Oh, thank you.

Thank you for putting it all together. It is. Yes. And you know, my first instinct was like, these two Daniels, please let them be, you know, geniuses. And they are geniuses. They are. They are so attuned to the balance of chaos.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. It's like respite and all this. And it's like, how do you make it? It's like, it's okay to laugh. Yeah. It's okay to laugh at yourself. Yeah. And how absurd this whole, it's like, how do you make it? It's like, it's okay to laugh. It's okay to laugh at yourself. And how absurd this whole, our world is chaotic.

You know, if you look at it, yes, and yes, we can't communicate with each other. It's called what? Generational trauma. Sure. Right? And all the young people are like, their life, everything is in their face.

Yeah. With a flick of the, because in the past, the last generation didn't really get to travel. They focused on how do we make a better life so that you have a better life. But now with a flick of the finger, they're in Asia, they're in Bali, they're in, you know, they can go, they travel, their minds are being exposed to so many things. So they always feel that, why are you so critical of me? You always tell me, I don't know what I'm doing. You tell me I'm wrong.

It's almost like, I'm just not good enough for you, right? I'm just like useless. So they get in their heads. Whereas the parents, especially the immigrant parents, it's like a duality. Are they American or are they Asian?

And why do they have to choose? Yeah. They are Asian American, right? They should know their culture. They don't have to be ashamed of it. But in the past, it was like fit in. Just fit in. Yeah.

So that people don't think you're weird, you know? Right. So it always said that. You got to pass somehow. Yeah. That internal conflict that they have. Yes. And then they also have a problem of communication with their parents.

It's like in Asia, parents don't communicate how, they don't know how to say, well, I love you. I think you're great. Or I think they'll be like, you're getting fat. Right. You need to cut your hair. It sounds terrible. Yeah. But their motivation is, I just want you to be better because I know you can.

Right. Right? Yes. But it's just that it doesn't come out like that. Yes. Mom. Yes. Like, I'm 60.

When I go home, my mom will lay out my clothes for me. And I'm like, I think I can dress myself at this point. And she'll say, like, why didn't you comb your hair? I'm like, oh, boy. Wow. Still, huh? Still. And also what you're saying about the

younger generation is that that is the point of view of the two Daniels, right? Yes. So they are able to have a freedom of mind in terms of imagination that is thoroughly modern and without restriction. Right. And also they have very strong mothers. Yeah. Right. Daniel Kwan's mother is like powerful and they're surrounded by their wives, their girlfriends. You know, they are independent working women who are very successful with what they do. So, you know, it's like they see this and they're going like, we have to pay respect. And I think if they did, when they first started, yes, they wrote the, I tease them, I say, you wrote the generic action film, right? You wrote it for a guy.

Yeah. Which is the normal thing to do. Right. That's why, you know, normally you don't get a script where it's already written for a woman. Right. It's already like that. Did they write it for a guy? At the beginning.

Oh, yeah. Then they threw it away. So they've been working on this for like five years, I want to say. Oh, that's crazy. So when they finally, you know, they said, you know what? We're just going to like sit down, throw away, and then put in everything that, you know, when you're young. Yeah. And it's like, this is the time when you go for it.

Sure. And you're hungry. Yeah. And everything that people say you can't do or shouldn't do. Right. And you go, why not? Yeah. And let's find a platform. And they were so smart with the multiverse. Yeah. Everything that people say you can't do, you shouldn't do, and you go, why not? And let's find a platform.

And they were so smart with the multiverse. It's like a science fiction. Anything goes, right? I can let my mind go to a place, which they did. It's crazy. And when you're reading, you're like, hot dog fingers. Yeah. How's that going to? All right.

It's all there. Yeah. You know, the body parts. Yeah. Yeah. The butt plugs. Yeah. They're all there yeah you know the body parts yeah yeah the butt plugs yeah they're all there yeah yeah but then as you read all this you know it's like it's very easy to see superficially yes it's wacky is like really weird yeah but the core of it that resonates you know the the heart that's beating it's family yeah It's never giving up on family. And actually turning around and say, whatever you are, however you are, it's enough. And I will, whatever universe, I will always want to be with you. Right. And I think that was what it reached

out to people. Sort of an unconditional love of family, if it's possible, which is hard. Nothing is easy. Yeah. Does your mother factor into everything everywhere all at once? I mean, completely, yeah. Do we want to get into it? Sure. I mean, it just seems like that dynamic.

Oh, totally. Yeah. We realized while writing it that like the character of Jobu, the kind of villain, is like the character version of all of our movies. Yeah. You know, and that the Evelyn is our parents. Yeah. And it's just like, this is this weird unhinged thing. And then the parent is like, what?

Why? What is wrong with you? Why is my daughter like this? What are you doing? You know, like she is the weird music video. She's the part of you. She's an archetype of you guys. Exactly. Especially our work, which tends to be our weirdest version of ourself.

That we're like, this is in me. But it's like every parent's nightmare to see their kid go out into the world and represent. And hump things until they explode. And just represent something that they did not think was a part of them. My dad actually turned down for what? To his co-workers. things until they explode. And just represent something that they, they did not think was a part of them. Yeah. Like, you know, my dad actually showed, turned out for what to his coworkers and they were like, are you embarrassed?

Are you, you know? And like, so grappling with those ideas, the movie is a movie about our parents and some small ways, learning to expand their minds to be able to include all of the messy, unexpected parts of us. And about the kid learning to give the parents some space and grace. i'm being like so this is this is the easy but this is the

story like you know what you start with with this movie is there is a story there and it's pretty basic about you know parents and kids and about the strain that parents relationships go through male and female you know roles and then the immigrant that parents' relationships go through, male and female roles, and then the immigrant experience. If you pitched a movie without any of what you guys do, they'd be like, well, that sounds like an interesting emotional movie. Totally. Maybe we'll do that on the next one.

I mean, people ask us, like, how did you pitch Everything Everywhere? And we're like, this was pretty easy. Because we were like, hey, we're the farting corpse guys. This one's about a mom going on an action adventure story and learning to love her family. They're like, oh my God, that sounds marketable. Thank God you got over the fart stuff. No more farting weirdness.

And then we're like, oh, just wait. This time it just takes a little longer and then things go in butts. I think we realized the film was going to be about just generation gaps in general. Yeah. Every generation has to deal with it. But what makes this generation gap between millennials and boomers so unique within the context of history is the fact that millennials are the first generation to grow up on the internet. first generation to grow up on the internet.

Yeah. And to have parents not understand what it was like to be able to just accidentally fall into all sorts of awful, terrible things when you're 10 years old. Yeah. And the effect that might have on you growing up, that is a very bizarre generation gap. And we realized the multiverse was a really good place for us to explore that. Uh-huh. Well, also what's interesting too, and I'm just thinking about this now because I had a conversation

with my producer yesterday just about that generation is now becoming adverse to emotions. Mm. Yeah, that, you know, when they use words like cringe or awkward. Oh, yeah. That, you know,

it's really in reaction to vulnerability. Yeah. So there's a guardedness that's happening around engaging in true emotional vulnerability that's a little disconcerting and i think that there is something to that in the movie that what you come around to is is is acceptance and and and real vulnerability on both parts right totally yeah i'm reflecting

on the cringe thing is is interesting because when you live your life online yeah in in social circles for the most part, especially ones that are driven by algorithms, there is no grace for any mistakes. So that is, I think that is why people are so guarded and that's why people like when you, when you watch someone else make a mistake on online, you feel their pain and you realize I never want that to happen to me.

And so suddenly you have a whole generation of people who are fearful of looking like they made a mistake or fearful of being the cringe person online. It's like it's. It's a problem. How are they going to exist in relationship? Exactly. How are they going to identify, you know, evolving vulnerability? How do you grow as a person if you're just, you're transferring the possibility of your own mistakes onto somebody it actually happens to and you live in fear of that, how do you develop? You have to listen to your podcast, WTF.

I do think on the other side, the internet has started to celebrate mental health and vulnerability in these ways that are like, oh, cool. Like, I sometimes wonder if, like, yeah, millennials are going to be the jaded ones, but the kids are actually going to be, like, vulnerable as hell. And, like, just thinking about, like, with our movie, you know, we never expected the thing that would go viral with kids would be selfies of them crying. But, like, on TikTok, people would post selfies of how much they cried at our movie, and that was the thing that they'd share.

And I was like, whoa, I thought they'd be talking about hot dog hands. Yeah, that was the thing that sold tickets, because then someone would be like, oh, why is everyone crying at this movie? I've got to go watch this movie too. It gives them permission to have the emotions that they're usually ashamed of. I guess, maybe.

It's really cool, honestly. I thought it was beautiful. I was like, oh my God, that's so cool. I thought we had to sneak the emotion in there, but the emotion became the thing, the selling point. Well, that's interesting

because it's not like, you know, no one's at risk. Like if somebody shares it, like this thing made me do this. And then everyone's sort of like, well, I kind of want to do that if it's safe to do it. Yeah, totally.

Wild. Yeah. But if you didn't cry, that's fine too. Yeah. Some people, you know. I cry at everything. Yeah. But if you didn't cry, that's fine too. Yeah. Some people, you know. I cried every day. Yeah.

I don't know why that happens, but it's, I don't know if it's, it's always kind of like that though. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't take much. I love that. You can hear those full talks

on episodes 1411 and 1412. Next, we've got the nominated cast members from The Whale. Brendan Fraser is nominated for Best Actor and Hong Cha Fraser is nominated for Best Actor, and Hong Chao is nominated for Best Supporting Actress. Here we go. In talking to these individuals, outside of abusive adults,

is there usually a history of other trauma? Yes. I mean, I didn't get into those areas that they were uncomfortable with, but I think we can all attest that there are overlaps in those kinds of issues. Trauma reaction. Yeah. I don't know how to answer that one,

but I think that they're very interrelated. Yeah, because it's interesting in the movie that the story unfolds in the second, or the third, the last third of the movie. Pieces fall into place that define some of your character's emotional behavior. I don't want to spoil the movie for anybody, but it's a very specific reaction to somebody dying in a certain way. But it seems like the issues were there previous. Yeah.

Right? I agree. And you don't know what happens after whatever happens at the end of this movie, man. No, it's not important. It's not important. And I don't even know if you would say it's hopeful, but it does release you. It does. It does.

For all the screenings I've attended with question and answer period afterwards, I mean, it's almost like a trope in Hollywood. Like, oh, my God, there were tears in everyone's eyes, blah, blah, blah. But seriously, people stay rooted to the spot, even if the credits have rolled. Oh, yeah. Some clap, some sob and hold each other. I know the first time I saw this movie, and I'm in it. I had to seriously move the chess pieces around on the board and then throw the board out and go,

I got to think about this some more. I definitely had to, I had a feeling of, I just felt like you really need to gather yourself after this. And for reasons you might not even know why, and maybe it's not that important. Oh, for sure. It is, if I, I was just saying, if I, you know, if I do come out to an audience who has seen it, the first thing I, you know, I would joke about is like, is everybody okay? And they go, ha ha ha. But, you know, seriously, some people are triggered by what goes on.

And it's an emotional body blow for many people. But it's also a catharsis that I think is, I don't know. I haven't seen it in cinema for a long time. And I'm, I mean, help me out here. I'm scratching my head like, what, Steel Magnolias? When did people really, for whatever reasons, have that collective? Become devastated? Yeah.

Well, I mean, this one's so complicated because, you know, it's not like just someone, you know, like dying of cancer. Correct. It's not terms of endearment. You know, it's an aggravated and painful process of self-annihilation and grief. I mean, there seems to be a lot of grief in the air, generally speaking, right now. You know, after COVID and after, you know, whatever we went through as a country and a world

and what we are going through, you know, the world is dying. And there's no way to, after a certain point, avoid that reality. So I think grief in and of itself, you know, however it's grounded in whatever character or situation, you know, is speaking to the human spirit right now, right? So, I mean, when you say triggered, like, because like me, you know, I would be somebody who is, you know, severely triggered by food issues. But that's not, that is not what got me emotionally.

You know, what got me emotionally was just that need for redemption. And, you know, and also the fact that he, out of his shame, thought that he deserved what was happening to him. And I think that people struggle with their secrets and with their unprocessed grief and with their own shame about how they behaved every day. So the spectrum of triggers is something. So it's hard to know coming out of that what would cause anybody, you know, to react to it, but it is a human existentially true reaction. Speaking of existentialism, we all lived under that clearly with COVID.

Yeah. Will there be a tomorrow or next week? We seriously, I don't know you, but seriously, we didn't know. We were scared, fear, blah, blah. I mean. Were you shooting during that? Yeah, this was a COVID film. Oh, so you, you know, you, oh my God.

So on top of the prosthetic, you had to mask up and visor up? I couldn't. Everybody else did, but I couldn't. I won't say it's fortunate, but I guess I was pretty disaster because I got it like that January, February. Oh, you did? Yeah, I did. Before the vaccine? Yeah.

How sick did you get? I lost smell, taste. I had serious brain fog. Did it come back? Yeah, I've got it several times since then. Actually, I'm holding up four fingers. Oh, really? Yeah, really.

But you got your smell back? Yeah, that came back. I mean, sriracha sauce might as well have been fucking toothpaste at one point. I was like, what is going on, you know? And I just told the doctor about it. She's like, yep, there's so much we don't know about this. That's neurology for you, right? Right.

And you feel all right now? Yeah. That role was not written for an Asian person. It was a play originally in all of the productions. Did you see the play? No, I didn't. That's the sad thing about living in LA is that you miss a lot of theater going on in New York. But in all of the stage productions, the character had been played by a white actress. And even when I was up for the part, the other names of the other actresses that my agent told me was in the running, they weren't Asian.

Well, I thought you did a great job with it. Thank you. I liked the movie, and it was painful. Yeah. And I talked to Brendan about it, and that was heavy, man. It was a heavy conversation. He's a heavy character as a person. Well, he's extremely thoughtful

and philosophical yeah so yeah and and right now a little heavy-hearted too about some things yeah yeah but it's not um i i like that too though. Sometimes I struggle with the very, you know, light, cheerful. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, of course. But, like, we got into some stuff, you know, because I was brought up with a certain amount of food awareness because my mother had eating disorder. So, like, I found it affected me in an odd way. Like when I watched the movie and then when I talked to him about, you know, the nature of the condition he was in. Because when I watched the movie, I didn't get hung up on that.

Yeah. You know, I really got very quickly into the sort of emotional content of the characters. So, and that was interesting to me. Like I wasn't marveling at, you know, the condition. Yeah. But I was sort of engaged with the emotional interaction. And your character, and the twist at the end was, it totally worked on me. You know, I know this movie is very sort of divisive.

You know, either people love it or they hate it. But I thought the one thing that got me about the film was that your character's, you know, almost demonic enabling. Okay. Yeah. Demonic. I haven't heard that. But yeah, enabling.

Yeah. She's an enabler. Yeah. But there was, at points there was an anger to it. There was a defensiveness to it where you would stop other people from stepping in to help this guy because, you know, you knew him better than anybody else. And you knew in your heart that there was nothing going to change it. I love that you saw that because I think most people think that she was sweet or something.

And that always struck me as strange. Did not register that at all. I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, that is somebody not engaging with the movie properly. Yeah, I mean, I like to not, you know. No, okay, I'm not putting you in a position where you have to judge critics. But like right from the get-go, I'm like, what the fuck is up with this person?

Because you don't find out your backstory or his really until the third act really, right? But like I knew right away, I'm like, why doesn't someone stop this woman from feeding him? You know, what is her problem? And then the weird kind of emotional conflictedness of your relationship with him. I don't know. I found it to be disturbing and deep

and nuanced in how you played it. I mean, how did you approach that character? I know it's a weird question, but I mean. Yeah, I guess the demonic enabling was not foreign to me. Oh, really? How so? I mean, I've been witness to that type of relationship in my life. In your family? In my family, yeah.

And, yeah, that part did not, I didn't really have to struggle. But did you get it, like right when you read it? I got it immediately, yeah. have to struggle but did you get it like right when you read it i got it immediately yeah yeah um and and also that that wanting to box out other people and wanting to be the only person in his life well that's like had that sort of uh connection and in that relationship um and control in some ways and there's like something a little bit selfish in in that totally totally i mean yeah i mean that you know codependency is a weird thing right brendan's full interview is episode 1404 and hong chao is episode 1414 next it's austin butler nominated for best actor in elvis i got a call that Baz was making the film.

Yeah. And I... There was one of those moments where, you know, there's certain times where you just know that it's a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Sure. This is the role of a lifetime. Yeah.

If it goes poorly, I'll probably never work again yeah but if it goes well this this could be something very special if what goes poorly the audition no no if making this if sure you know if you play elvis and you fuck it up yeah it that's really bad yeah you know stakes are high and there's so many ways in which it can go wrong. Of course. There's so many traps. Because when you deal with known people, how are you going to, like, it's tricky, man. Yeah. Because people know the guy.

Well, so the actual audition, the way that it worked was I, so, you know, I hear he's making the film. Yeah. I hear he's making the film. I start preparing for it. I knew that I had some time because he still didn't know who was going to play Parker at that time. I knew that I had some time as he was trying to figure out who was going to play Parker.

I started just preparing as though I was going to play the part. I watched every documentary and read every book and started listening to every one of Elvis' songs in chronological order. You read that Goldman book? Yeah, yeah, it's great. Yeah. And then, you know,

listened to the archives of his interviews and everything. And it just sort of felt like a detective, you know, trying to find the truth of whoever Elvis was as a human. Yeah. And in that process, I learned certain things like Elvis's mom passed away when he was 23. Right. That's the exact same age I was when my mom died. And so there was these certain things that suddenly made him a real person to me.

Oh, that's interesting. And so it wasn't so much that the relationship with your mother was similar to his, but the fact that you both lost your mothers gave you an emotional point of reference. Yeah. Where I knew the truth of what he had experienced. At the same age, yeah. At the exact same age. Right. And he was very close with his mom. I was extremely close to my mom.

So there was things that. He was strangely close to his mother. Well, he was, one psychologist called them lethally enmeshed. Yes. Oh, interesting. They were incredibly, and because from a young age, he was oscillating between being the child and being the caregiver. Right. So even at three years old, people would say that they would watch him run around like a lightning bolt to the house and then come up to his mother and pet her and say can i get you anything can i get you anything do you want water so he would care for his mother but then he would be the child and wow there's that back and forth so yeah well uh yeah bordering on creepy well yeah

a little bit one could say yeah so um so you're doing all this prep. Yeah. And how does the audition go? Well, then I sent Baz a tape of me singing Unchained Melody. Yeah. And that resonated with him. And then I went into Denise, our casting director, and we read a couple scenes and sent him a tape of me doing the scenes. And you're doing the accent you're doing

you're deep in yeah yeah I'm doing my best to you know try to do everything right and then he and then he said

you know I want you to fly to New York and meet with me here and so I went and met him at his house in New York

and we just talked for hours and talked for about three hours about life and Elvis and all these different things and then and he said, you want to come in tomorrow and read some scenes from the script and maybe sing a song. And so I came in the next day to his office in Brooklyn

and we read and we just sat down with the script and just read. And then uh and then i sang don't be cruel or something like that and then he said why don't you come in tomorrow and uh we'll read some more of the script and maybe sing suspicious minds right so then that night i went different age i start practicing suspicious minds all night and yeah i was also not a singer before this so so i'm you know i just was trying to do my best to see him as closely as possible. So that process went on for five months. With your bass. Of us just kind of, you know.

And we may go a week without seeing each other. And he'd say, you want to come in and maybe try this scene? Yeah. And so we just kept chipping away. Because there was a lot of questions of, you know. At that time, I was 27. I'm 31 now. There was the question of, of, you know, at that time I was 27. I'm 31 now. There was the question of can I play older Elvis? You know, is that even possible?

But the one thing he knew, you know, from the get-go was like, this guy kind of looks like him. I guess there was enough of a similarity. Right. Because, like, you know, you've got to be close. You've got to be close enough, yeah. Right? Yeah.

And I think it was then experiencing, filling the gaps of your capacity in his mind by challenging you with all these different songs, different ages. Yeah, and different temperaments. He was reminding me the other day of he wanted, in the rehearsal, he had me do this scene where i where i get angry yeah you know at parker around the time that uh that he's trying to take my money yeah and everything

so he gave at that time he had the idea of me pulling a gun on him and so he gave me a hair brush and we're doing this and and so I just came out with everything that I had. A lifetime's worth. A lifetime's worth of aggression was able to come out. And that was something about Elvis that you learn when you read a lot about him is that when he had a temper, his whole demeanor changed. I mean, he could go from being very sweet and then having quite a fiery temper. All that energy that goes into that charisma going into anger. Yeah, so we just tried to find, you know, he tried to push me in every way.

Austin Butler is on episode 1413. Now we get to my co-star in To Leslie, Andrea Riceboro, who was nominated for Best Actress. Our movie right now, the fucking distributor dropped the ball on facilitating something that would bring a lot more attention to the movie. And it's just sort of like one idiot's going to like that. That happened. And now this movie that's struggling with 100% Rotten Tomatoes scores that everyone should see because of the work you did, the work we all did is now, you know, it's been hobbled by the people that are responsible for putting it out there.

I think, yeah, I know. I think the more transparent we are about it, the better. Yes. And what people don't quite understand is that there is not an equal, there's not equal footing for everyone. And that's not because of huge 100 million dollar um publicity budgets that's because there literally isn't equal footing yeah and we're operating in a system where everything costs something even to just submit your film yeah to an awards sure yeah platform

yeah and people aren't aware of that there are as there always have been a few players that have a lot of power, and those always change. They revolve and change. But I think one of the most sad things is, and also dangerous things, is this assumption that we know what an audience wants. I think that's one of the most... Yeah, but exactly. And who are those people that decide that? What are the numbers? What's the mathematics?

Mostly it's just people that are afraid of losing their jobs. It's that constant conversation in our industry. You want to see something new, so you bring something new and they say, we haven't seen it before. Who's this going to be? Where's the audience? Who's attached? Yeah.

And it's actually, I think, a huge judgment on not just cinema goers, but consumers, you know, at large. I hear so many times people saying there's nothing to watch when, you know, when there's so much, as we know, so much stuff being made all the time. Well, but that's because only these certain things get through. And I think people get overwhelmed and exhausted by the choices. So you have to, someone has to guide them somewhere. They do, but it's,

it's the height of, I mean, it's evil. I mean, there are kids starving, you know, the amount of things that are being made. and i think a lot of the time unfortunately things end up being background noise you know and then there's maybe 10 20 that gets through that's like really fantastic quality and and that's wonderful and one of the things that i absolutely love is that some of the great filmmakers like Iniri too.

I mean, there's so many like him now are being championed by those bigger platforms and being allowed to do what they want to do. Andrea's full interview is on episode 1400. Okay, nominated for Best Screenplay. This is Sarah Pauly, writer and director of Women Talking, which is also nominated for best picture. When I initially watched the movie, you know, a couple of things, you know, it was sort of the different points of view of all the women in relation to the rapes within their community. You know, I mean, I guess we should set it up a little bit.

It's a Mennonite. Are they Mennonite? It's a Mennonite community where many of the women were drugged with bovine tranquilizers and raped by some of the men in. Right. And it went on for years in the middle of the night. And this is, is this based on a truth? It's based on a true story that happened in a Mennonite colony in Bolivia from 2005 to 2009, 2010. And the film is based on a novel by Miriam Taves.

And the novel is a response to those true life events. So it doesn't cover those events. Those events are not in the film. It's about this imagined response by the women of the community where they sit down and have this debate about whether or not they should stay and fight for a different kind of colony, whether or not they should stay and do nothing and forgive the men as they're being instructed to by the elders, or whether they should leave and create their own colony. So this is an imagined debate that takes place in this hayloft about how to respond. And what struck me about the presentation of it is, like, are you going to make a theatrical version of it? Because it plays like a play just by nature of the setting. Yeah, I mean, I think it would be great as a play as well. Great.

Yeah, I mean, I was determined to make the film as cinematic as possible, but absolutely it could be a play as well. Because it's kind of loaded up like a play. Yeah. That is sort of like we're going to reckon with this. Yeah, yeah. And the one man who was there as a secretary and as a listener, that was a very delicate balance of acting. in the face of rage or complacency or subverted rage, that that guy has to sort of represent that sex.

Yeah. He did a very good job. But what I started thinking about today in retrospect and after reading the book, a couple of things that, you know, the nature, and you addressed it a little bit before, of what I sort of started to think of as institutional gaslighting and then, you know, the way out of our own fear that we gaslight ourselves into thinking, you know, and I'm just throwing that word around because it seems to have a very specific meaning, but why can't we broaden that? Because, I mean, institutional gaslighting is the nature of religious belief in a way, right? Yeah. I mean, I think in a society like, you know, the one in the film where

the structures of power have become kind of this corrupted, I tend to sort of parse out the faith from the structures because I think that, you know, what the women in the film are doing isn't actually trying to abandon their faith or their religion. They're actually trying to figure out

how to get closer to it with integrity, which means throwing off the structures that have sprung up around it and the sort of power grabs and hierarchy, because,

you know what, I'm going to give up on the word hierarchy of power that have sprung up around it. But also, their personal morality, you know, as women in that type of community becomes corrupted because of the need for them not to take action. Yeah. And so they have to kind of go, well, how do we stay true to our faith the way we understand it?

And how is that different from what we've been taught and what's been handed down to us? And so in order to forgive, which is what's being demanded of them with no accountability and no healing. By other women. By women in the conversation that's happening has no men in it. Yeah. That's happening has no men in it. So any of that hierarchy that is male based is being manifest in women who have believe it. Believe it or are in relationships where they have no power and feel there is no option except to accept it, except to forgive. Right. And so I think what these women kind of are wrestling with is this notion of forgiveness and what it means to them and how they might come to that in a real way.

And the first step that has to be taken is to get out of harm's way. And the second step that has to be taken is how do we imagine a colony where these things are not allowed to happen again. How do we imagine an equitable society, one in which we're making decisions collectively and have a voice so that forgiveness becomes this evolving? There's an evolution of the meaning of the word into something much richer and more complex and ambitious than simply forgiving. It's about how do we create the conditions in which one day we might be able to forgive and what has to happen for that to be possible. Sarah Pauly is on episode 1403. Another director we had on is Todd Field. He's nominated for Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Original Screenplay for Tar. Not knowing about that world and the way that you captured it through her and through the detail know, the detail was, was pretty fascinating, you know, to me, that classical music world.

It is a fascinating world. I, I, I, you know, I felt the same way, you know, dipping my toe and getting into it. How do you see it? You know, I see it differently every time, you know, and I don't mean to be coy or cute or about it. I mean that for real, like, you know, when, when we started editing the film, uh, part of the deal, you know, part of the deal was making the film was i i was the only american i had to work with everyone had to be in europe and and so those were all new people uh monica willie my editor was someone who i'd wanted to work with for about over 15 years and we've been talking

about it for a long time but we were supposed to edit with, she lives in Vienna. Yeah. Vienna lockdown, London lockdown. And so we wound up in the middle of Scotland, in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. In a 15th century nunnery. And neither one of us drive on the right side of the road. So we just work seven day weeks. And we would walk, I mean, the middle of nowhere, we'd walk four and a half miles every day and then we'd go to work. And when we got to the point where we were actually screening a run of the film, every time we would do that, we would turn to each other and say, how did you feel about her today? Yeah. All the time. Sometimes based on the cut. Sometimes based on the time of the day. Sometimes based on whether we retired, you know. So, you know, my impressions about this character are fairly fluid depending on the last time I've seen the film. Interesting. And, yeah, I could see that. Like, I know that if I watched it again, it'd be different.

And yeah, I could see that. Like, I know that if I watched it again, it'd be different. And would you tell Kate, you know, in the way that you like to work with actors? Would you lay down for her? Well, again, I mean, sort of like how filmmakers talk to each other. We just talk about practical things that you have to get done. I mean, Kate and I had met 10 years before that on this project that I'd written with Joan Didion. And, um, what happened to that? Um, no one was as excited as Joan and Kate and I were about it. And it was, it was a period thing. So it was just,

no one wanted to give us the money we would have needed to have made it. Um, but, but I knew in talking about that character and the material with her that I was talking to like, you know, one of the great minds that I'd ever come across. And somebody that really looks at a film in a holistic way, way outside their character.

So our initial conversations were like that. It was not sort of like, how do you play this character? It was more about the thing, the thing. What is this thing we want to accomplish? And at least, you know, from day one. And of course that changes as you're continuing that conversation. But, you know, the things that she had to master were self-evident.

You know, there was no point in me talking to her about any of that. I knew she was conducting, she would have, well, conducting, learning to play Bach on the piano, doing an American accent, speaking German, stunt driving, all those things were, those are just practical things she would have to learn, you know? And so, um, so she did, I mean, we had a year before we started rehearsal in Berlin. Um, and so she did i mean we had a year before we started rehearsal in berlin um and so she made two other films in in that period of time and she would finish a day of work and call me from budapest or whatever and we'd get on the phone and we'd just start talking about things or she would have a or she would be doing zoom lessons with someone or she'd be doing piano lessons and so by the time she turned up um uh in august we had you know we had about three weeks together in Berlin

but in terms of the character in terms of the actual all that groundwork had been laid

yeah and by the time we got into it it was you know the way that I always like to work

is you know we rehearse and at the beginning of the day, we rehearse again alone. And then we bring the crew in and show them what we've done. And say, okay, the camera's going to go over there.

It's on a 29 millimeter lens. It's three feet high, zero tilt. And the shot's going to go from this to that, you know. And that way, especially for a piece like this, where you're following a single character, it was important not to have any safety net for her. So it really is a very, it's a very theatrical kind of film in a way.

It's almost like watching a play in many respects. Yeah. There are places where it's not that, you know, but, but it really is sort of like giving this, you know, bull in a China shop,

a container to, to do whatever that bull is going to do. Right, yeah. Oh, my God. Wait, was, I just, at the beginning, what was her assistant's name? Francesca.

Is she texting Krista? Maybe. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's certainly possible, yeah. Okay. You can hear the rest of that conversation with Todd Field on episode 1401. Another Best Original Screenplay nominee is Rian Johnson, who's nominated for Glass Onion. It seems like, you know, you took on the genre, you know, head on in Knives Out. Like, this was a mansion. It was a family. It felt like, you know, but you Knives Out like you know this was a mansion it was a family it felt like you

know but you tweaked it yeah and you they were higher stakes I think the the dialogues was uh had a better clip than the old timey ones yeah yeah but but the challenge was for you to sort of own that particular form yeah I mean I you know I've i've done kind of movies in different genres before and for me it's it's kind of um i don't know it's for me it's sort of about having a genre that i grew up loving first of all so i got an emotional connection to it and all all i'm trying to do really i'm uh all i'm trying to do is kind of connect back up in the most direct way to what i love about it yeah get that on the screen and but that with the genre that has kind of layers of veneer over it over the years of like you've seen it a bunch yeah yeah you gotta kind of you gotta shake it a little

you gotta tweak it i mean a big part of it with these ones is just setting them in modern day america you know so many whodunits i'd seen over the years and loved our period pieces sure in england so just like all all right, forget timelessness. It's set in America right here, right now. But you were able to deal with the old mansion in the other one. Yeah, that's true. So there was like the trappings. Yeah.

Well, with this one, though, I mean, it's interesting. There is kind of like a whole subgenre of the vacation mystery. You think about like Death on the Nile, Evil Under the Sun, The sun the last of sheila yeah yeah there's a lot of them now i mean there isn't that movie the chef movie oh yeah i haven't seen it yet white lotus is is really sand and sandler's uh uh mystery thing is kind of like a yeah it's a it's a whole thing the destination murder thing so there's a tradition of it yeah it's that but well that's interesting yeah so so yeah but this was really more of a like a compound situation this wasn't like people sort of in an awkward in an uncomfortable place no or a place that's beautiful that becomes horrible because someone's dead

no not really it's kind of yeah but this one for you like in in approaching it as a writer yeah i mean the other one was family yeah uh the other one was about you know property being left about a will yeah so like this was the entire device and and this sort of genre buttons yeah were not there yeah it's this one is but at the same time there are other ones that i'm leaning on so like with this one, I mean, first of all, it was about a group of, a group of friends, which was another trope of, of the murder mystery thing, which actually puts me ahead. Like a lot of Christie's stuff, it's just people who live in the same town or people are vaguely connected.

So even just having a group of friends who are trapped together on an Island gives me kind of a density that like, it's really helpful. But then, yeah, leaning into, into i mean it's all like with who done it's all about the power structure it's all about a group of suspects yeah kind of a microcosm of society power structure somebody at the top that needs to die you know so uh and this one it was clicking in kind of okay it's a tech billionaire up at the top so that kind of makes sense like who this group of friends are and we can talk about this and that and then it kind of makes sense, like who this group of friends are, and we can talk about this and that, and then it kind of is,

so it all kind of folds together. And what was it about the idea of so many breakable things? I mean, like, you know, right at the beginning of the movie, you're sort of like, well, there's a lot of glass. Yeah.

No, not just the place, but all the sculptures that, you know, that's set up for some reason. Yeah, it's Chekhov's glass trinkets, basically. It's like, yeah, the notion that kind of, I don't know. I mean, like the, and I'll try not to like spoil it if anyone listening hasn't seen it. But like, you know, I like the idea that what happens at the end kind of very much follows what Miles Braun, what Edward Norton's character describes as disruption, which is you start by breaking stuff, everyone wants to know it's broken.

It's also cheesy art. Totally. Oh yeah, that's the thing. You've been staring at those things the whole movie on their wobbly little pedestal scene. And by the way, the actors, by the time we got to the end of shooting in that set, we'd been on that set for like two months, they were like tiptoeing around these

fucking things. They were dying to start smashing those so it was cathartic oh they did it everyone was oh my god everyone's like calling i'm gonna break that one oh that's so funny it was good ryan johnson is on episode 1393 finally we'll go back all the way to the beginning of last year for two nominees from the fablemans i spoke with tony kushner who's nominated for best original screenplay and judd h, who's nominated for Best Original Screenplay, and Judd Hirsch is nominated for Best Supporting Actor. How did the thing with Spielberg start with you guys? When Angels in America, Mike Nichols' version,

came out on HBO, as many of you have anything happen on, you know, a movie or a TV show or something come out, you get calls from producers who say, let's have breakfast. Sure. And I got a call from Kathy Kennedy saying, let's have breakfast. I'm going to be in New York and I'd like to meet you. And you just meet and you have breakfast and they say,

what are you doing? And you say, what are you doing? And I said to Kathy, what are you guys working on? And she said, we're working on two films, you and Stephen. And she said, we're working on two films. One is about the murder of the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics in 1972. And the other is adapting Doris Kearns Goodwin's book, forthcoming book, Team of Rivals about Abraham Lincoln. And I said, those are great projects. And then right as we were about to leave, I said, you know, I just published, I edited with a friend, Lisa Solomon, an anthology of essays about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict called Wrestling with Zion. And I said, I'm really proud of the book. And if you guys are going to make a thing about the Munich Olympics massacre, maybe you'd find stuff of value in it. So if you'd like, I'd be happy to send it to you. And I did. And I thought, well, that's the end of that.

Yeah. And then about two weeks later, I got a phone call with Spielberg. And he said, I just read the essays, and I really liked them. I'd like to talk to you about this script. And we got together, he sent me the script. I read it, we talked about it. And then he said, Would you like to try and write your own version of it? And I said, yes. And now we just this summer finished our fourth movie together. So it'll be coming out in Thanksgiving. Which movie is that? It's about his childhood. We wrote it on Zoom, just like what we're doing now. No kidding. During lockdown, we wrote it. It's the fastest thing I've ever wrote. We co-wrote the script together. It's about Stephen's childhood and sort of the beginnings of his-

Oh, really? Of him running around with his Super 8 camera? Yeah, Super 8 camera and then 16 millimeter. And it's also about his parents and his parents' marriage falling apart. And it's- Interesting. Michelle Williams and Paul Dano are in it and Seth Rogen. And I'm very excited about it.

Wow, that's amazing. So he finally does an autobiographical picture and he needs you to help him out. I would like his shrink. You've done the voiceover work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite a bit. I mean, I was living on it at one time. Really? Yeah.

When? Yeah. When? 1973. Well, actually, from 68 to about 73, someone found me in New York. I believe, I mean, to me, it's still a mystery. Yeah. I was kicking around off-Broadway, off-off-Broadway, actually, and I got a call from somebody to go to the Universal casting office in New York. They had one.

Yeah. For Universal Studios? Universal Studios had a casting service on Park Avenue in New York. Yeah. The lady's name, I believe, was Dorothy Kilgallen, or her sister. Huh. That sounds familiar. Yeah, because she was a sort of a scandal writer.

Oh, okay, okay. The Kilgallons. And so I came into this office and she hands me this big tome. Yeah. And she said, would you go in the other room and read that? Yeah. And tell us if you think you are. You're the art character.

Yeah. So what they were looking for was a fast-talking Jewish lawyer. Get this one. New York. Yeah, yeah. Fast-talkingtalking Jewish lawyer. Get this one. New York. Yeah, yeah. Fast-talking New York Jewish lawyer. Can you do it, Judd?

Can you do it? Well, she didn't know who I was. Right. I know, I know. I have no idea how I got there. Believe me,

it just was a phone call. Yeah. So I go in the other room, I'm reading, it's called The Law. Yeah. It's like, it was for a two-and-a-half-hour

television movie. Mm-hmm. And I had no idea that it was going to be, who else was up for the part? I had no idea. I'm in New York. They're casting in LA. Yeah. Some of the biggest names you ever heard wanted the part, but I didn't know that until after

it was done. Yeah. And I thought, oh yeah, okay, I'll read this. Pretty good. I can do that. Sounds like me. Okay. So I came in.

I didn't even finish reading. It was too long. Yeah. I said, yeah, I think so. She said, good. Now, I'd like to introduce some of the people in the office. She takes me for a little walk around the office. She said, she gets to a little office, tiny office, with a desk and a man behind it.

The man is Steven Spielberg. Really? Spielberger was 22. He was doing Jaws. He had Jaws on his desk. Look, and she says, this is Mrs. Spielberg. He's going to be very big.

And then we walked on. He went like this. He had the paperback, the book? No, the script. Oh, the script, okay. He was already directing. He was going to direct Jaws at that moment. Right.

1973, four, 50 years later, which just happened this past year. Yeah. Spielberg calls me. Right. And says what I do a part on a movie he's doing about his own family. Right. I heard about this from, who just told me about it? Tony Kushner.

Tony Kushner. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Tony wrote it. So what part are you playing in the movie? It's the most unusual, completely different part from anything in the movie. In other words, he appears, does something, leaves, never hear from him again. Your character. Yeah. He's like a dream out of somebody's

head. The old Jewish oracle? That's right. Yeah. He said, it was so cute because I never met him. I never met Stephen. Really? Never met him. I'm told that one day that I saw him across the table. I never met him after that. Did you tell him that? Yeah.

I said, my first words for him when I sat down to talk to him, I said, I knew you 50 years ago, you know. I said, I saw you. You were a little guy. You were this little guy across the desk. He said, when? I said, 73, 74. He said, I saw you. You were a little guy. You were this little guy across the desk. He said, when? I said 73, 74. He said, that was me. So after we finished this movie, and I do my part, he writes me a little

note. He said, and I hope it won't be 50 more years so we can meet again. Oh, that's nice. Tony Kushner is episode 1301 and Judd Hirsch is episode 1303. If you want more Oscar talk, get the Oscar bonus episode we released on the full Marin this week. And you can also use your full Marin subscription to go through the ad free archives and listen to the Oscar stuff we've done every year to subscribe,

click on the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. All right. Enjoy the movies. How's that for a sign up? All right? Enjoy the movies. How's that for a sign-off? Let's go to the movies. Isn't that somebody's sign-off? Who did that? All right. Okay. Thank you.