WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - WTF Oscar Nominee Special 2024

Episode Date: March 6, 2024

Hear Marc’s conversations with past WTF guests who are nominated for Oscars this year: Paul Giamatti, Cillian Murphy, Jeffrey Wright, Annette Bening, Jodie Foster, Da’Vine Joy Randolph, America Ferrera, Mark Ruffalo, Yorgos Lanthimos, Noah Baumbach, Greta Gerwig, Rodrigo Prieto, Lily Gladstone, and Robbie Robertson.This episode is sponsored by Acorns. Notices: Paid non-client endorsement. May not be representative of all clients. Tier one compensation provided. Compensation provides an incentive to positively promote Acorns. View important disclosures at acorns.com/WTF. Investing involves risk, including the loss of principal. Please consider your objectives, risk tolerance, and Acorns’ fees before investing. Acorns Advisers, LLC (“Acorns”) is an SEC-registered investment adviser. Brokerage services are provided to clients of Acorns by Acorns Securities, LLC. Member FINRA/SIPC. For more information visit Acorns.com. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey folks, it's Oscar time and if you're signed up for the full marin you'll get two bonus Oscar talk episodes this week. I thought anatomy of the fall was great. Something happened this year that hasn't happened in a long time. That's a brilliant performance and he deserves it. I'd love to see him win. Get those new bonus episodes plus all the bonus movie talks we've done on the full marin for the past two years as well as every episode of WTF, add free!

Sign up by clicking on the link right there in the episode description. targeted for that exact reason. Stop and question the source before you share. Learn more at Canada.ca slash disinformation, a message from the government of Canada. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and air and Chini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No, but Moose Head? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But Moose Head? Yes. Because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries,

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trip on the live map in the Uber app. Uber Teen Accounts. Invite your teen to join your Uber account today. Available in select locations. See app for details. Okay, how's it going folks? What's happening? You want me to do the whole thing? But this is a special episode. Let's do this. How are you? Everybody all right? Special episode. So we did one of these last year and people liked it, so we're doing it again. It's basically Oscar-centric, but by way of the history of this show. As usual, a lot of the years Oscar nominees have been on the show for long talks about their lives and careers and stuff. 14 of this year's nominees have been WTF guests in the past. This is one of those exciting things where I don't even realize,

because I'm just in the day, I'm moving forward. I don't, sometimes I don't even remember the people we've had on, but this is amazing. We're gonna kick it off here with Paul Giamatti, who is nominated for Best Actor for the Holdovers. This was a talk that was so good, we made it our 1500th episode. You have any of your movies that you like look at

and you're like, oh my God, what was that? Probably, I don't know, I don't watch a whole lot of them. But like weird, some of the weird, yeah. I mean, I did this kids movie, that's probably the weirdest thing. Really? Yeah, I did this movie called kids movie that's probably the weirdest thing really yeah I did this movie called big fat liar. Yeah, that's like kids Generations of people have seen this. Yeah, it's just bizarre. Yeah, I mean it's really strange

Yeah, well, maybe that's gonna be one of those movies when these kids grow up like I had no idea what that was about That would be amazing if that was their fucking if that was about. I totally, that would be amazing. If that was their fucking, if that was their Paris, Texas. Yeah, yeah. And their blue velvet. Now I'd love that actually, that would be great. I've never even thought that that's going into people's kids' heads and it might be the same thing. Yeah.

I never thought about that. Yeah. That is fucking some bizarre thing. Of course it is. From a haunted kid. Yeah. But I never really think of that. I was recently exploring the fact that my grandparents

accidentally took me and my brother when they were visiting us in New Mexico to see deliverance, not knowing what it was, like when it came out. Sure. And the weird thing about that though, Paul, was that I remember the rape scene, but all I remember,

because all I remember was there scene, but all I remember, cause I all I remember was there was a man in his underwear. You know, they're making him make noises. Yeah, right. That's all I remember. And then I watched it again recently. I'm like, holy fuck. Holy shit.

They really raped that guy. No, that movie's terrifying. But it, my child brain didn't register it. No, you didn't get it. Yeah, exactly. No, you just didn't get it. This is the same with Blue Velvet. My mother did, and it was Blue Velvet.

My mother did that stuff, took us through wildly inappropriate things like that. I'm glad, because it went in, you know what I mean? Like I absorbed it, and that's cool, because something went in there. We did it in an interesting way, but I didn't know what the fuck was going on. I remember seeing the conversation, and it was terrifying to me. It was just scary. I was like, I don't know what's going on. I have no idea what's going on.

But that guy's just taken apart his entire house. I don't know what's going on, but it terrified me. Yeah, yeah. Because I absorbed the menace of it. Because of the obsession of it. I got the menace of it. Right, right, right. Nothing else.

And that's a very, like, mental menace. Yeah. Yeah, you feel the menace of it even as a little kid. So you decide you go to Yale undergrad? Yeah. And, you feel the menace of it even as a little kid. So you decide you go to Yale undergrad? Yeah. And you study what? I studied English. I ended up studying English. Did you take your dad's class? No, he was not there anymore.

Oh, he wasn't? No, he'd left by then. Where'd he go? He sort of didn't do anything for a little while. Was that a weird time? Probably for him it was, yeah. Were your parents together? Yes, they were.

Yes, yes. That's good. I guess, I don't know. Sometimes I'm like, probably would have been better not to. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, he took a couple, maybe a year or two before he, yeah. Became the baseball commissioner?

Which way he went into baseball. But he was the president of you? He was. For years? No, not for that long. I think most of those guys stay in that job for years. I don't think he liked doing it. It's hard to be a bureaucrat in academia. Yeah.

My buddy's a- Not fun, I don't think. He's a writer, he's a teacher at Columbia and he's a brilliant guy. Yeah. Sam Lipsite, yeah. And, but like when you hear about what it takes to be like a tenured guy and just to deal with school stuff.

No, I said it to Shark Tank. And it's like, I don't think he, I think he thought that was gonna be maybe more enjoyable than it was and it wasn't. Yeah, because you're a manager. You're a manager, that's the best. And it's like, you're just a money, you're raising money the whole time.

So when you did undergrad, did you learn anything? Um, what was your focus? I guess like American, sort of 19th century American stuff, like, like Poe and Melville. Oh, really? Which was stuff I liked to read. So that was easier. I was a romantic, uh, uh, literature, um, uh, it was my focus undergrad, but both years for the, both semesters of the focus,

it was at nine in the morning. And it was tough going dude. So you mean like reading like, like fire and stuff? I can't read poetry, it makes no sense. I was cramming it and like, I think I might still have an incomplete. I'm pretty sure I probably do. I'm pretty sure I probably do.

It was, I think was a paper on Blake. Oh, yeah. Well, that stuff actually I probably do. I'm pretty sure I probably do. It was, I think, was a paper on Blake. Oh, yeah. Well, that stuff, actually, I can read. That's sort of, some of that makes sense today. Yeah, but yeah, well, yeah, it's very simple language, but then there are the drawings, and then there's, you know, just books upon books of analysis, and I'm like, what are they seeing?

I know, why are you, well, that's a whole other thing, is the critical shit I couldn't read. No, so it was good, because I I was reading like Edgar Allen Puzzle. I mean like horror stories. So that was good. Yeah. Yeah. But then you get it, you get done with that and you decide like I don't want to teach?

Well, because what I think the thing that I did, I don't know that I learned much about it, but I did a lot of extracurricular theater with a graduate. Yeah. That's really what I ended up doing. So like the non theater school theater company. so that's what so yeah whatever you do whatever you would do I did Indian wants a bronc that kind of thing a lot like I did people did Hurley Burley stuff like that a lot I didn't do story we did history we did Glengarry Glenn Ross that's bold yeah that was bold because I

think they didn't have the rights to it. Oh, right? When we did it. Nothing like a bunch of 19-year-olds doing Glengarry. Yeah, oh! Totally sitting around in trench coats trying to be like old Jews from Chicago. No, totally powder the white powder in your hair the whole thing. Fantastic, though.

Fantastic! I mean, so great that we had the fucking balls to do it. Everyone's parents loved it. Absolutely! And who knows, maybe it was good. Maybe it was good. I think people can suspend this. Maybe he just maybe was good. Yeah. But stuff like that.

Yeah. And so, yeah, whatever. Just all kinds of stuff. But you took to it. You were like, oh, yeah. Well, yeah, I really enjoyed doing that. Yeah. I think probably if I, I don't know if I learned anything, but that's what I did. Yeah. That was episode 1500 with Paul Giamatti. I really enjoyed doing that. So I think probably if I learned anything, but that's what I did.

That was episode 1500 with Paul Giamatti. Another best actor nominee was on last year when he was making the rounds for Oppenheimer. I didn't know, like a lot of times with actors, I'm not even sure they can talk. But this was great. Here's me and Killian Murphy. So the relationship with Nolan is like six movies long now? Yep. Yeah. I mean, what have you learned from that guy? How does he work? I think he's kind of like, I think he might be the perfect director. You know, he's got all of the facets that you need in

the perfect director. He's amazing with actors. He's incredibly brilliant visually. He writes the things himself and they're made for the theaters. You know, they are like event movies but they challenge you. You know, I love the way he presupposes a level of intelligence in the audience. Yeah, doesn't happen often. No, and he knows the audience aren't dummies and he know the audience can keep up and he knows the audiences want to be provoked and challenged and I love working with him and he really pushes it. You know, he expects the best from you and he's rigorous at everything and like demanding.

The sets are huge too. I mean, the sets are huge. But here's the weird thing, the sets are huge but it feels like being on an independent movie. There's just Chris and the cameraman, one camera always unless there's's some huge, huge set piece. And the boom, up, and that's it. And there's no video village, there's no monitors, there's nothing. Oh, really? Yeah. He doesn't use any of that?

None of that. I mean, he's a very kind of analog filmmaker. Interesting. You know? Even on Dunkirk? Mm-hmm. Man. Yeah. And I didn't see a frame of this movie until I saw the first teaser. Of Oppenheim? Yeah, I hadn't seen anything. And I've never see a frame of this movie until I saw the first teaser. Of Oppenheim?

Yeah, I hadn't seen anything. And I've never seen anything on Chris's films until I see the, or the trailer or the finished thing. Really? Yeah. And he rarely does ADR. I've done six movies with him. I think I've done like four lines of ADR.

No shit. Yeah, because he records sound really well. And he believes in production, you know, production sound sound and he creates an environment for the actors. There's no green screen, there's none of that. I found it to be so like the guy, it was a press screening so it wasn't packed, it wasn't a premiere or anything. But whoever was running it was like, all right, this is a 70 millimeter print on film the way Chris wanted you to see it. Exactly.

Yeah. And I felt like it does make a difference. I think it does. And I was highly aware of it for some reason in that movie. I know there's other movies that are shot like that. I mean, Tarantino shoots like that. But because you're in IMAX, you know, it's like, you know, it's different.

The effect is different. I mean, Chris says it's kind of like 3D without being 3D. I guess, to me, it just reminds me of like movies, theaters when I was a kid. Just a big old screen, you know, where you feel like you're really at an event. Yeah.

But like the opportunity, and like for me, like as, look, I did one scene with De Niro in passing in Joker, you know, and I'm sure he has no recollection of me. It didn't matter I was it, you know, you know, just whatever what but you know, there is that awareness and I imagine even though you've done You know dozens of movies at this point. There's awareness Yeah, these are just people and certainly, you know that actors are painfully people. Yes, I do But you're aware that sort of like all all right, you know, game on, I'm sitting here with Casey Affleck,

and we gotta do this thing. Yeah. And like, I always like seeing that guy. Yeah, man, he's so good in the movie. That was great. That was a big scene. Yeah. Yeah. And he came in and he was ready to go.

And it was, again, like, again, all these stupid kind of analogies, but it does raise your game. It does make you better when you're working with the best actors. in and he was ready to go and it was again like it again all these stupid kind of analogies. Yeah, it does raise your game. It does make you better when you're working with the best actors. It does it does do that and it's it's true and this was a perfect case in point like you have these some of my favorite actors in the world. Yeah, because they all want to work with Chris. Yeah. So they all come in and they play these parts and the other thing about the movie I think is because you got a lot of movie stars in it but every time every character they play these parts. And the other thing about the movie, I think, is because you got a lot of movie stars in it, but every time, every character they play,

they're very significant characters. So it doesn't feel like cameos, if you know what I mean, because they're all playing these real life characters who had a big impact on the world. And also, I didn't feel the movie stardness of anybody. Yeah. And that's sort of a miracle. But it's just so interesting that you had to carry this movie

in this character that operates at a level, right? You know, you definitely have, you're holding on to this stuff that you're talking about and his affectation is what it is, which doesn't, you know, he is who he is all the way through. And then you just, all of a sudden, these other actors, like you got to deal with Downey, steps into this thing. And I just, I imagine that you're just holding on to the character you've built in certain moments. You have to be aware of that. Like you're sort of like, just stay focused. Yeah, of course. But it was a joy, man. It was a joy working with these actors. Like I really felt, I'll probably never get a chance

to work with an ensemble of actors like that again. It'll probably never happen. So I just, I enjoyed every minute of it. And again, you know, we talked about like learning. You look at all those amazing actors, you work with all those amazing actors, you're always learning, you're always figuring stuff out as an actor.

And this was like, just special. That's Killian Murphy from episode 1453. Now, okay, so best actor nominee, Jeffrey Wright, was on the show back when we were still doing remote interviews because of the pandemic. But it was still great. This is from episode 1126. Jeffrey is nominated for his performance in American fiction.

It's interesting, because I'll ask actors about process and ultimately everyone's going to put together their own set of tools or however they're going to do it. You know what I mean? There's no way to say like, well, you do this, you do this, you do this because everyone's going to do it their way. But from taking from all these different people and adding it to your natural ability, I mean, what do you remember every time that you go into a role?

How do you start and where did you get that information? Like, do you look back at the people that guided you early on? Is there any bit of information that really stands out as like that was it? Well, I mean, I think you put it all in the in the in your pocket, you know what I mean, and you pull out as needed and it all kind of merges together, you know, so many great influences and also other actors that you work with. I mean, for example, you talk about Shakespeare,

one guy who taught me perhaps more than any other one individual about performing Shakespeare is somehow is someone you probably wouldn't expect and that's Chris Walken. Yeah. Yeah. Again, Joe, this guy Joe Dowling gave me a gig, you know, Bit Park, Shakespeare in the park. I think I was, I don't know know 23 years old 20 whatever it was and Chris Walken played Yago to Raul Julius a fellow and I talk about this with With like if I if I talk to you know young you know actors now, you know Sometimes I'll go and you know talk to a class and I'll talk about walking particularly relative to Shakespeare because you know walking's from Queens right you know yeah yeah and and Chris a strong and dance man it's Chris yeah badass yeah but when he does

Shakespeare he's not interested in any affectation, you know, it's Chris Walken, zlaz, but you're not hear me. I mean, it's, you know, it's, and he, he personalizes that language and just kind of destroys any unnecessary reverence for it, which is particularly important, I think, for an American actor to claim it in his own voice and in his own rhythms in his own tones and I mean he's probably one of not the smartest actor I've ever had the the privilege of working with and yeah you know because you know there's nothing more annoying than seeing an American actor do some kind of faux fake ass British weird half British accent when doing Shakespeare.

Sure. I mean, it was just so unnatural and weird. People, we all know that we should be saving and investing, but it's always overwhelming, which is why I was excited when Acorns reached out to sponsor today's episode. Because let's be real investing can be intimidating so intimidating that sometimes it feels easier just to push it off. If you can identify with that, Acorns might be just a thing to kick you into gear. Acorns helps you automatically save and invest for your future. You don't need a lot of money to get started. You can even start

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769 and she's nominated this year for Best Actress for her performance in NIAID. Like, you've been nominated many times. And I think you should win. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay, get on the phone. No, that would be wrong. I can't imagine.

I can't, like, when I watch the, if and when I watch the Oscars, just that horrible feeling of like waiting to hear, I can't imagine that. Yeah, it's a funny feeling. Then you got to be happy for them. Yeah. That's when, you know, it's always what I'm watching. It's like that moment. Yeah, we all do. Yeah, that moment. Because that's the human experience that's the most interesting. But I've never seen anyone go like, oh, fuck. Actually, I think there

was an actor many years ago who did like stand up and throw his hat on the ground and say, shit, when he lost. So yeah, you see little glimmers of that. I remember the first time I was nominated, I was nominated in the supporting actress category with a bunch of amazing women and- For which movie? The grifters. Oh yeah, yeah.

And the other actresses and we all got together before the show was on the air because in those days actually they didn't turn the cameras on so everyone's talking and chatting. Right. So we all get together in a little group and we're like, okay, whoever wins next week takes all of us out to dinner and they pay. Yeah.

So Whoopi Goldberg won. Yeah. The next, just like a day or two later, I got a big bouquet of flowers with a card. It said, meet at such and such a restaurant at such and such a time. We show up, one of us couldn't be there, but we were all there together.

Whoopie brings out gardenias for each of us on a tray and chocolate Oscars. I'm not kidding. And we all had dinner and it was the most beautiful Lorraine Brocco, Diane Ladd, Mary McDonald, Mary McDonald, me, Whoopi. Lorraine couldn't come to the dinner, but Mary was there, Diane Ladd was there, me and Whoopi. It was amazing.

That's sweet. It was. It was like one of those moments of, wow. Well, that's so nice because that was like, again, it relates to the kind of never-ending appetite of the media that everything that happens before and everything, like everybody, just you had a privacy moment. You had a private moment. We had a private moment. And it was so, exactly. It was so meaningful. My parents were with me at the awards show. And I remember, it never occurred to me,

I didn't even think about it until the very last minute. Oh, they could actually call my name. Yeah. But then they didn't. And it was really quick. It was like, no, they didn't. Ah. And also that's like one of the first awards of the night.

So then it was over really quickly. And I was like, okay, well, ah. Ah. And also that's just like one of the first awards of the night. So then it was over really quickly. And I was like, okay, well, ah, who cares? I'm still here, it's fun. Yeah, yeah. In the supporting categories, we've had a bunch of this year's nominees on the show. One of them from back in 2021. And this was actually an amazing talk.

It's with Jodi Foster. It was during COVID. She was at home. I don't know, it was just one of those things that seemed to be something that would never happen again in this way in terms of conversationally. Jodi's nominated for best supporting actress for NIAID. I mean, the whole point of having a production company

was to protect people, was to protect filmmakers to protect the process and to protect the product. That's why I called it Egg. That idea of sort of this female scene protection. And then we made some, I don't think I'm the greatest producer in the world, but we made some movies that I'm really proud of. There isn't any film that we made that I'm not proud of. And yet at the same time, it was clear when I finished the 12 years of producing that like, yeah, I was done. It's enough with that.

I thought Nell was a pretty gutsy movie. It's really like to do that role. I mean, your ability or your willingness to explore certain types of vulnerability is pretty amazing. I mean, like it must, it's pretty terrifying for me to even think about really all of them, like the accused or Clarice or, or Nell specifically, who was basic. I mean, I know he felt a little insecure about the accused for these reasons, but did you feel

uncomfortable with the vulnerability in retrospective now? I think that I was, I was, I mean, obviously I was drawn to now because I developed the play and, you know, got it off the ground and did all the years of work that I did to get that on screen. But I was scared of it. She is the most unlike me of anything that I've to get that on screen, but I was scared of it. She is the most unlike me of anything that I've ever played and I didn't know that I would have what it took. I think that I was scared of vulnerability and scared of being somebody like that.

Like I thought that if I was like that, I would just explode into a million pieces. Like I just couldn't imagine what that would be. And I didn't really know how to create that character. I was just so, so confused about how to create that character. And so it really was the greatest acting lesson of my life where I realized like, oh, all I have to do is drink coffee and show up and it will come

because it's inside. There wasn't any books I could read particularly or research that I could do. Like I had to just trust that when somebody said action that I would be able to be there. And you had to let go of a lot of who you, a lot of the love who I am, the construction of you. Yeah. I mean, you know, it didn't mean that I didn't like going to a trance or anything.

Right. No, but you let yourself be, You let yourself be unafraid. I let myself be unafraid. And I really think that. I allowed myself to believe in trolls. Right. And you have to believe in trolls sometimes. And it doesn't really matter whether they're real or not.

It's because the belief is, you know, that's the whole point. Right. You know, when you're shepherding an audience through an experience like that, you have to be 100% authentic or the movie doesn't work. So there's a lot of pressure that comes with that, but there's also a lot of power to the fact that it's all writing on your performance. And if it's real, it works. And if it's not real, it doesn't work. Right. And you can see parts, like I haven't done a lot of movies,

but I imagine that as somebody who's done a lot of movies, when you look back at the ones where you can say like, I don't know if I was there or I don't love that performance, you just let it go, right? I mean, you can't get hung up on it. Yeah, well, you can get hung up on it. You can waste a lot of years getting hung up on it. No, I don't.

I mean, that's something I learned as a child that as an actor, I just don't have any control of it and I have to just go. And there are rituals to do that. I feel like there's always a ritual about that. Letting go? When I'm hanging out the window on my way to the airport

after the rap party, and we wrapped at six a.m. and I threw all my shit in my thing and then there I am and I'm out the window and I undo the window. And I realized half of me just finished this massive thing. Like I just finished Climbing Mount Everest. So I'm like,

and then the other half is not quite back in the real life of who I am. And there's a little fear about that. That's the most delicious moment. Yeah. And that's like, I feel like that's a ritual for me where I just go like, okay, yeah. Yeah. That's it. Yeah.

That's over now. That we're the in-between. The relief of being in-between worlds. Yeah. Where you don't have the anxiety of like, do I measure up, you know, can I do it? Oh, you just did it, it's done. Yeah, it's done, it's over, down to your hands.

And then 10 minutes later, or when you get off the plane on the other side in LA, suddenly you're gonna be like, ooh. Yeah. Grip's with anxiety that you don't measure up, you know. Oh my God. That was Jody Foster from episode 12.01. A few weeks ago, we had another holdover's nominee

on the show, Daveyne Joy Randolph, was episode 15.12. And that was fun. Like when you got this part, cause I lived in Boston for years. Oh dope. Yeah, it was okay. It's, yeah. Mm-hmm.

How much, what was the the how much time do you have to spend there we were there for three months three and a half months but did you have to go learn it Boston yeah okay so I they wanted us to live like around where we were filming I'm from the city so like I'm born and raised in Philadelphia lived in New York now I'm like, I am a city girl. So like, too much quiet really freaks me out. And it's actually not good for like- For your brain?

Yeah, it's too quiet. Like I remember the suburbs the first time of like, spending the night over like a friend's house. When you were a kid? Yeah, and I was like, what is that sound? They were like, it's quiet. It freaked me a kid? Yeah. And I was like, what is that sound? Is that weird? It's quiet. Yeah.

It freaked me out. It's scarier than noise. Yes. Like when I, if I'm driving across country or something and you just see a house set back a little ways on it. What are they doing? Exactly. Can't be good.

No. Those spots always freak me out. Yeah. There's probably just people sitting in there, but the idea of it. Ugh. So this. It literally makes me nervous. Yeah. There's probably just people sitting in there, but the idea of it. Ugh, literally makes me nervous. Yeah, so the silence just starts to happen. Yeah, so I was like, nope, this is an intense movie. We're filming it the same time of year.

Cold. As this movie's taking place. Yeah. Multiple blizzards, winter. So it was like, I need to be in the city. Yeah, because it's something about the isolation. Yeah, it was already, I mean, you're already shooting a three-hander in abandoned buildings.

Yeah. It felt like a very well done independent studio film. Yeah, but it was freezing in the buildings? Freezing, because we couldn't have the heat on, right? Because the radiators were like, ding, ding, ding, making all this noise. Another level of the pretending. Woo!

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But did you get around Boston? Did you, like, how'd you learn? Yeah, because I lived, that's where I stayed. In the city. In the city. What part?

I was like on First Street and Second Street. I could see the water or whatever their harbor was. Yeah, yeah. I don't know exactly or whatever their harbor was. Yeah, yeah. Charles River or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, and like I found out like in our last five days, you know like when you're on location, you don't know the area. Yeah. And then it's like that last week is like the most awesome week. Right. Because now you found the restaurants. Yeah, yeah, yeah, finally. I can wait here. Yeah, but you know, I, yeah. So I, but it was tricky for me because they are speaking contemporary Boston dialect. And so I needed to both be around them

and then also be like, eh, you know what I mean? Because my dialect that I'm doing in the movie is similar, but also very different due to time period. Yes, yes. So it's like- did you figure that out with a dialect coach? A dialect coach. She said that like 19 what was it 70? Yeah. So it's like late 1960s. We went for late 19. The movie literally takes place on like December 69 until January 70. until January 70. And so it was Don, the biggest, so we did YouTube videos of like interviews

and looking at like little clips of like, yeah, the best thing is, I call it YouTube university, but truly the best thing is finding like news reporters interviewing people. So we was down there and they were talking about, you know what I mean? That's a great, and then Donna Summer. Boston?

Boston. Come on. Hardcore. Really? Hardcore Boston. So I'm looking at like her Johnny Carson interviews. Wow. And that was like my go-to gal.

And then the realtor who helped me find the place. She was just so lovely, hospitable, I was like, little Miss Boston, and I would just listen to her all the time. And there were certain things that I was like, can I just record you say this word and this word? Cause she was older, so she was a little bit closer to me than like me going to Dunkin' Donuts and I'm like,

ah! Yeah, yeah. Does it get more intense as time goes on? Is it farther, like that? Or what's the difference? The biggest difference is that pacing. Yeah. Because like the rhythm and the cadence,

the position, so you get it. It's more so like the lills and the rhythm and the cadence. I lived there for years Yeah, and I think it depends when Bostonians are upset. Yeah things get like Exaggerate and really bright like fath and you're like really wow you don't want to stop it You still go I used to live in an apartment in summerville and you know across the street There was a drama all the time drugs or whatever of course and there was always like it seemed like every other night

There was a girl on the street yelling at her friend upstairs. Yeah, yeah Yeah, you know like Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah Who is this dialect coach Tom Jones, so he's done like he's known to work with Nicole Kimmon on almost everything really. Yeah. Did he make you that like phonetic? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm a classically trained opera singer. So I know IPA, you know, so in a way of helping IPA, I think it's called the International Phonetic Alphabet. Yeah. Like the diphthong., yeah, yeah, you know those yeah from opera well Yeah, and then when I went to Yale they made us learn it and my speech and Dialect close was very frustrated with me because I'm a musician first right ears sharp right so I could speak and she was like

No, write it down. Yeah, music theory. Yeah, I mean like there is the worst do it she was like no write it down. Yeah, music theory Yeah, I mean like there is the word do it all day, but write it down the worst. I don't know what you're talking Huh, so they really but yeah, no, so he's great I met him on the set of doing Billy holiday because he worked with Andrew Day for Billy holiday And so I was always like if ever it could work out I would love to work with that man Yeah, it was perfect because I did that and then right after that worked with him on Rustin to do Mahalia Jackson So he's great because he's so music based while you've done a lot of time traveling. I like time traveling It's the best right especially, you know because some of those things like the Billy holiday movie and Rustin is just so loaded

With you know with the tension and evolution of people. Yes. Yeah. Yes. One more best supporting actress nominee, America Ferrara, who's nominated for Barbie, she was just on. That was episode 1514. But with the monologue, which is like literally a page of dialogue, I was like, okay, okay. We didn't really rehearse it that way. We talked about it a lot, but we didn't rehearse it. What was the conversations about mostly themes

or like what, finding it? It was a lot about, we shared a lot back and forth between like poetry and songs and episodes of TV shows and articles and op-eds. Like everything that kind of felt like related to the monologue, we spent months kind of sharing to kind of have a common language around what is the essence of what's happening here.

And then I remember closer to shooting, we had a rehearsal at her house that she was staying at in London. And we sat on her couch and like, that felt more like it was making it incredibly personal, you know? Which I don't know how to do it any other way as an actress, but to make it deeply personal.

And that was about kind of us relating it to us, you know, Shani and like how this plays in our life. And then on the day, I was like, what is this supposed to sound like? You know, I was like, is this supposed to be funny? Or is it just drama? Or is it, you know, is it fat? You want me to keep it up?

Like, is this supposed to sound like everything else in Barbie Land? And she really just like, was the only time that looked at me. I was like, I just want you to find it. And she gave me so much freedom. And there were takes that had hysterical laughing, there were takes that had hysterical tears, there were incredibly angry takes. And you know, and like that,

it went so many different places. And then I did it so many different times. And I had no idea. I'm like, I'm given, I'm literally like, and not because I was like looking for, it was just like, okay, I'll just drop into it and see where it goes this time. You know, it wasn't like, now I'll do a funny take.

Now I'll do, it was just like each time it was just find a thread, pull it and follow the thread. And they were all subtly different? And they were all very different. Wow. So when it was done, I was like, she's gonna have to decide and she's gonna have to find it.

And I was very confident that she would. That it was in there, that it was, you did it. And I think the other question was like, how does this fit into the rest question was like, how does this, how does this fit into the rest of the movie, right? Well, I mean, it seems to me, like, now before I say that, but did you add stuff on the day? We didn't add stuff on the day. No, there was no improv.

We had talked about certain- So you built it out. We built some things in we tweaked and right But it seems like from months before she knew it was like going to define the third act if not be the centerpiece of the movie Yes, when she first sent me the script. She said I wrote this thing that I'm calling Gloria's aria and it's the moment that I'm calling Gloria's aria and it's the moment that Everything shifts and changes everything. So from the beginning she was like

So she knew there's this thing and I want it to be you and it was just felt like a It just felt like a dream like it's just something I never expected what but your responsibility in the movie is is kind of I'm just thinking out loud now. I mean you are the human. Yeah, really. Yeah, the only human Yeah, and your daughter. Yeah, Ariana because the corporate guys aren't human. No, they're like, yeah, it's That's I so The whole movie hinges on your humanity in a way Yeah, I mean it So the whole movie hinges on your humanity in a way. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, you're welcome.

You're welcome for representing all of humanity. It was challenging. You know what was challenging was how hard it was to not give in to the energy of Barbie land. Like everyone's like dancing and singing and it's Barbie land and everything's heightened. And I'm like, I wanna do that. And it's like, oh, I'm not here to do that. I'm here to be the human, wards and all.

And so yeah, there was the harder, not the harder, but the thing I had to unlock for myself in playing the character was here is a woman who has a childlike imagination and desire and a need to play and suspend disbelief and believe that Barbie's coming for her and taking her into the real world. Like there's a child like yearning there. And she's deeply, deeply human, frustrated. She's a real woman.

She knows the disappointment of life. Challenges. Challenges. And also, you know, her teen daughter is like pulling away from her and making her feel kind of rejected. And so, you know, all these very real human feelings coupled with the fantastical energy of a child in one woman's body. And when I started out that seemed like, how am I gonna play that? Yeah. And actually what I realized is like, I am that. And we're just so not used to seeing women

get to be all those things. Like that she gets to be taken seriously and be real and be considered deep and smart and all the things and get to seek play and childlike wonder and and so it was sort of like in a way through the process of being Gloria finding for giving myself America the permission to be More of what I am.

Yeah, that's great. So it was a really deep journey. Life changing. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Introducing Uber Teen Accounts, an Uber account for your teen with enhanced safety features. Your teen can request a ride with top rated drivers

and you can track every trip on the live map in the Uber app. Uber team accounts. Invite your team to join your Uber account today. Available in select locations. See app for details. Calgary is an opportunity rich city, home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors,

and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive and creative, and they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward.

Take a closer look at CalgaryEconomicDevelopment.com. economicdevelopment.com. And finally, to round out the supporting actors, here's some of my talk with Mark Ruffalo from episode 1513, who's nominated for his performance in Poor Things. I mean, I think what you respond to in Dunkin'—like, Dunkin' can be played just straight across the board pretty much that way. The guy in poor things? Yeah, yeah. And to drop down into that, really drop down into his sort of insecurity. And he becomes empathetic.

Sure. Yeah, there's a couple of things. He's a horrible narcissist. Well, that's why it's where it's because you do feel empathy for him. Yeah. Wow. I just realized the bipolar must have helped with the Hulk a Little bit buddy these doublings keep showing up in my life all the time. I mean, I'm always playing these like dual people That have one side and then another side and and the Hulk is like the

You know the just the absolute clear manifestation of that. Yeah, yeah. And you approach that with humanness. Yeah, you have to. Try. I mean, that's what we hold on to in films. You know, I mean, you can do a bit for so long. Yeah.

I mean, bits are fun and just pure comedy. Sure. It works really well, you know. But I'm always looking for that a little bit deeper cut Have you have you hosted SNL? No. Why not? I'm scared They've offered it to you. Yeah. I'll never be as back. No. Well, I don't think Lauren Michaels likes when you say no Well, yeah, well, I guess not but no I

What so what about that? I mean you've done theaters? Just scared the living shit. I don't know. I don't know. It's not the live thing, is it? I think it's a live thing like reading off a cue card. That's hard. It scares me. I'm dyslexic, I mean, not gonna lie.

You don't lie on this show. So I'm really dyslexic. Like how dyslexic? Like, I'll just get, I'll lose where I'm at. I'm a page, you don't lie on this show. Yeah, so I'm really dyslexic like how dyslexic like I'll just get I'll lose where I'm at I'm right right yeah, and And you know I'm just when I hear about how that show works and they're changing things at the last second Oh, yeah, so and I want to be good on it man I've been watching that my whole life and like I don't want to be the guy who's the host who sucks on Saturday Night Live, you know? No.

Like I owe Warren Michaels more than that, you know? Well, are you one of those people that you can memorize the shit? Like pretty much quick? No, that's the other thing. Like I have the double whammy. Like I'm dyslexic and I have a hard time memorizing stuff. Like I have to start so early.

With any script? Yeah. Oh my God. But that's not part of the dyslexia, that's just you. Right? It's just me, that's one of those things that you're talking about. You can't do anything about the memory.

No, what am I gonna do? Ginkgo, you know, now it's wasabi, I chase all the memory shit. You try? I try everything. I've tried everything across the board. So what happens? But how many times you read the script?

Well, the most important reading is like that first one. It is. And just like a mercy. See, the way I read it, for a one hour, 60 page script, 90 page script, it takes me like four hours to read it. Right, okay. Well, so that's interesting because your dyslexia

enables you a type of concentration that other people don't have. Yes, and I fall, I have to envision every single scene. Like I have to like see it. Yeah, yeah. To understand where I'm at. Right. Right. So it takes me longer than the movie if you were sat down and watched the movie to read. To read it. So it's a blessing, you know, it's like all these things are blessings and their

curses. Well, that's wild because so that means in order just to process the words, you know, you've got to attach the feelings and it takes, you know, it's like a full immersive experience. Totally. I'm living in it. If I'm reading a book, I can't like read a script at the same time, otherwise I start mixing up the worlds, you know? Yeah, and you have to see yourself in everything, I guess. Kind of, I mean, that first read is so essential

because it's the first time it's coming to you so fresh. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you can, and you end up like playing that first read, I mean, in a lot of ways, all the information, all of the spontaneity of that first read, all of your like the imagination kicking off all these connections, that ends up being the most informative read of the entire thing. Yeah, yeah. And then would you just kind of then go scene to scene and lock in? Yeah, yeah. Once you do the read, you got it in your head.

Yes, then I'll go back and I'll do scene to scene. Sometimes, you know, you want to know where you came from and where you're going in a scene. Dude, that is the hardest thing about shooting. Yes. It's like, all right, so this is nine days before you were bleeding. Yes. And then you ran away from the explosion and you run into this room and you know, it's just you really have to keep a hand on that. I think that's the only reason you need a director or a script supervisor is because you're like, what happened? Where are we? director or a script supervisor is because you're like, what happened?

Where are we? Where were we? Where was this? Okay, wait, wait, wait. Right, right, right. Okay, okay. Oh my God. Yeah, but do you ever watch yourself and go like,

I know. All the time. I can't, I mean, literally I'm watching myself and I'm just sinking down in a chair. But no one knows about you. I hope so. Going back to an episode from several years ago, best director nominee, Yorgos Lanthimos was on back in 2019.

He's nominated this year for Poor Things and also has a best picture nomination for that film as one of its producers. What was the first kind of mind blowing moment when you were watching a film and you're like, oh, this is... I guess, you know, Tarkovsky was one of the, you know, first filmmakers that I got to learn through film school that I didn't know anything about.

So that was in a film history class? Yeah, so we learned about it. And then there's some nice, you know, during summer in Greece, there's a lot of open air cinemas. I mean, they're not as many anymore. But there are beautiful open air cinemas in various neighborhoods where you can have a little table and you eat something, you're outside surrounded

by apartment buildings and you watch films. So they would do like retrospectives. So I would watch his films and then John Casavetes was. What was it about Tarkovsky specifically that you found sort of engaging? Well, it was just for the first time seeing like a different, it was like a different, completed, different medium, you know, discovering like something new.

A vision, different vision. Like how, you know, how can images affect you vision, different vision. How can images affect you in a different way? It doesn't have to be a fast narrative and how poetic it can be and how you can lose yourself in it. And engage, but with your own personality, there's a lot of openness to it.

Like you can bring your own stuff into it and see things and understand things in maybe in a different way to how the person next to you is Yeah, experiencing the same thing at the same time right now. Everything's not explained. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and Yeah, the use of sound and image and image, and it was very different for me. And then, you know, like watching right after that a John Casavetes film, which is very different stylistically. Yeah, sure. But for me, in a weird way, it has a very similar effect, but through a different route. Yeah, it's more, it's a human-driven space.

Yeah. You know, I mean, the few Tarkovsky movies I've seen, you know, it's a lot of cinematic space, but with Casavetes, there's something heightened, but you know, it's very engaged with people. Yeah. But the fact that it's so heightened also takes it to a different level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And although it feels kind of more realistic,

it kind of transcends that and then you enter a different space again. Yeah, and there's also that feeling like these people are talking and the context seems familiar to me, but I don't know what the fuck is happening. Yeah. Yeah. What's going on with these people? Yeah.

That's a good, I think that's a good feeling, I guess. No, it's, again, it's, I enjoy, you know, watching films like that. I guess what I'm trying to do is, you know, create films like the ones that I'd like to see. Because you watch movies constantly? I watch a lot of movies. I'm not like an obsessed, like the ones that I'd like to see. Because you watch movies constantly? I watch a lot of movies.

I'm not like an obsessed film buff or anything, but I do, I kind of, I tend to watch the same films over and over again. Like which ones? I feel safe. Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, they're familiar, they're like friends. Yeah, so, and yeah, I'd rather watch something that I really like then

What's it like? Which ones have you watched them over and over like every time it's like like sometimes? I'll just be watching TV or cable and want to come on. I'm like I'm in I don't it doesn't even matter where it starts I just watched casino again the other day. I don't know why Because they have seen that like quite a few times great. Yeah, it's a great film Can you watch how like I found that as I get older, I'm not able to watch the head and the vice scene as much as you could. Like I used to be able to watch it. You're more sensitive. A little bit.

Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. I was just like, I don't know if I need this tonight. I know what's going to happen here. The weird thing with me is like, how much affected I can get by those kind of things being so much, you know, on the inside and seeing how these things are created. Even though you know how it works. Yeah, you know how it works.

The difficult thing is for me to be affected by these things. And that's when I know that a film really grabbed me because I forget about the way it's made. Yeah, you're not sitting there going, oh, I know how they do. I understand that shot. I understand that. Exactly, when you're able to do that and be someone that is actually making film,

then that's very strong. Right, yeah, oh yeah. That's your Ghost Anthemos from episode 992. So, okay, Barbie, which I loved, is nominated for Best Adapted screenplay, and both writers have been on the show. Noah Bombeck was on episode 388, and after him, you'll hear Greta Gerwig's most recent appearance from episode 1502. I'm sort of fascinated with people that grow up in New York. Like, you're a real New York kid, and your parents were part of that sort of,

what is, I would say, the mid-70s intelligentsia. I mean, you grew up in the thick of it when Brooklyn was still, you know, just for those kind of writers and not for punks and kids. Right. What, when you were just, how old are you now? 43. So your mother was a New York, a village voice writer

who I remember reading. She was a voice, but she started writing for the voice when I was more late high school college so I didn't grow up. Sometimes people say, oh, you grew up with a critic, but I didn't really feel like she kind of started doing it a little later so it was more like, oh cool, we get to see movies for free. Right. What was she doing before that?

She was a teacher. She had written some short stories. She was figuring it out. Uh-huh. A mom. Yeah, figuring it out right. She had two kids and she's like, where's my life? Yeah.

And your old man was a writer? Yes. Did you get along with him? Is he? I do get along with him very well. Yeah. And but yeah, he was a novelist and teacher. Right.

Also big film. He wrote sometimes about film. But in the 70s, there was that thing where there was almost no delineation between critic and writer. You were kind of doing it all. Sure. Yeah. Is personality driven in a way.

Yeah. You want to be known for that. You're that guy. Yeah. That can write on everything. Broad, broad, general critic. Of sorts. But yeah, because I made this movie, The Squid in the Whale, where which was kind of had some

connection to my childhood, at least in the very straightforward way. So people sometimes assume I don't get along with my parents, but I am close to my parents. Was there a reaction to the squid? And I mean, I had to refresh myself because I'd seen it, you know, probably twice when it came out. And I went to the Wikipedia page of The squid and the whale and just reading the plot sign. The plot line, I kind of choked up at the end. I don't know what the fuck's wrong with me this morning. This is not the like, I don't do interviews as early sometimes.

I think I'm still a little raw. That'd be, uh, well, the way they, I love the idea of like the Wikipedia page will make you cry. It did. Yeah, yeah. Because at the end, because I'd forgotten how the the actual that exhibit at the Museum of Natural History, how it was contextualized in the movie. So being reminded by it and the way they sort of framed it, you know, that this was this moment that your mother comforted you in front of this horrible thing, which I remember seeing

as a kid and it is horrible because it's kind of dark and you can always see the, and then you go back to it in the, I choked up, that's all. That's great. I'm thrilled to. We don't even, we don't even need the DVD anymore. You can just read the page. Just read the plot line. Well, my experience with the movie was the first time I saw it, I was overwhelmed emotionally.

Like I have a thing about musicals and I don't know if this is, would you call it a musical, but it's framed like a musical. It could have been a musical. I mean, easily. Yeah, it's almost like it's half a musical. It wants to be a musical.

Yeah, and sort of the unity of everything and the sort of the very specific vision of it. But I don't know what it is with me in terms of, you know, how emotional I got in a good way about just the way the women were talking. And I don't, I can't even like, because it speaks to a very odd thing and a very sad thing about movies in general, is that you realize that in mainstream movies that there's not a lot of women talking in general. Right.

And so, but just the fact that there was this conceit that enabled them to talk, you know, plainly and currently, but in a very emotional and intellectual way Was kind of amazing It felt amazing on the set. I have to say it was like small things that felt amazing When we did even the scene with Margot and Ryan and he said asked to stay over and she says Oh, but I don't want you here and she just said it so Like she's not being mean. It's, you know, she's just saying exactly what she feels.

And it was so, it was sort of amazing. But because it undermines the whole expectation because there is no sexuality in a way, because we all know that, and you make reference to it maybe twice, that they don't have genitals. But so that interaction, which is naturally loaded with all the baggage that anyone's going to bring to it, is able to have this honesty that's devoid of sexual expectation or manipulation.

Also devoid of her needing to placate any ego, that there's no, it wouldn't even occur to her. To placate his ego. Like, oh no, it doesn't enter it at all. But that's interesting because in those scenes, the male ego more so is intact. Yes, yes, yes. All right. So he, you know, she doesn't acknowledge you to recognize it,

but that's all they have. Yes, yes, yes, yes. The kens, the kens are, I think it's funny, like actually, this is Ryan from the very beginning, no one I, you know, wrote the part for him, but we didn't know him, and it was getting him the script and then saying like, no, no, no, we really wrote it for you. Like we wrote this for you. He didn't believe you? Well, no, I think he did once he started reading it because his name is all over the script.

I mean, because we'd say Ken Ryan Gosling. But it's so funny because he's so like those guys, there's something about those Canadians sometimes. They're very funny. Oh, they're so funny. In a very specific way. It's a non-neurotic kind of presence. That's true.

And they're very good at just isolating the funny and locking in. Ryan Reynolds the same way. Yeah. You know, and it's not, there's no kind of like, though Ken had to struggle with self-awareness, that the comedic element of it is just pure. It's pure. And it's also based in, I think he takes it seriously, which is part of what made it funny,

which I had an instinct that he'd do, and then he did it so completely. And he said, I think the first time we talked on the phone, he said he found his daughters had Barbies and then he said to himself, I think they have a Ken somewhere. And then he found it like date. An old Ken? Face down in the mud next to a squished lemon. And he's like, this is Ken. No one cares

about him. And I was like, it was just instantly like, yes, that's exactly right. So he got the emotional universe right away. Introducing Uber Teen Accounts, an Uber account for your teen with enhanced safety features. Your teen can request a ride with top rated drivers, and you can track every trip on the live map in the Uber app. Uber Teen Accounts, invite your teen to join your Uber account today. Available in select locations. See app for details.

Calgary is an opportunity-rich city home to innovators, dreamers, disruptors, and problem solvers. The city's visionaries are turning heads around the globe across all sectors each and every day. They embody Calgary's DNA. A city that's innovative, inclusive, and creative, and they're helping put Calgary and our innovation ecosystem on the map as a place where people come to solve some of

the world's greatest challenges. Calgary's on the right path forward. Take a closer look at Calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com. Okay, look, now for our nominees from Killers of the Flower Moon. First, a great unique talk with director of photography, Rodrigo Prieto, who's nominated for Best Cinematography for that film. This was from our recent episode, 1515.

When we got back into pre-production, I already had all these notions and started showing Scorsese's images and then shooting tests and, you know, seeing what he liked. And he was at the moment so involved in the script and all that that he kind of was letting me run free for a little bit with all these ideas and stuff. And then he started getting inspired too and throwing ideas as well. And we tested all sorts of things from pinhole photography, infrared, all sorts of things. Well, it seems like, yeah, it seems like, especially with the Native Americans, that there was something about composition that was reminiscent of those documentary photographs

of the era. Yeah. You know, that were sort of trying to show examples of the pride of Native Americans. I mean, I don't know what you drew from in terms of still photography, but did you? Oh, yes, definitely. Yeah. It's interesting. You mentioned that because that really became the basis of the look of the film, not only in composition, but I thought, okay, this movie is a representation of the story of the Osage in the FBI.

Yeah. At the same time, we see in the film these newsreel images, for example. And towards the end, we see a radio show telling that story. And stories are also told with still photography. So I thought that basing the look on still photography was a way of showing that we're also telling a story that's being remembered. So I decided to, this is where we ended up, looking at the beginnings of color photography. Yeah. I got deep into autochrome, which is a technique to create color that the Lumière

brothers invented in Paris. I think it was around 1917. And so I started testing digitally, we shot on film, but digitally emulating the look of autochrome colors. It's a system of creating kind of transparencies on glass plate with potato starch and dyes and all sorts of stuff. You were doing that? No. Okay. I was emulating that. But I studied many autochrome photographs, yeah, understand what the color, what was happening to the colors. Okay, how grass looks, how an the color, what was happening to the colors, how grass looks, how an apple looks, how the sky looks.

So we created what's called the look up table, LUT, to emulate autochrome because it's also an import from Europe, just like the white people are imported from Europe, the descendants of the settlers. So everything that has to do with Ernest and H inhale and the white folk, I use this lot of autochrome. And the Osage, the scenes that are just Osage, we shot completely naturalistic in terms of color. So green is green and all the foliage is the actual color and the sky, you know, so it's

naturalistic. Right. The Europeans are out of chrome. And so then, so I showed these ideas to Scorsese. He liked it, I shot tests, he loved it. And then he said, so then what? How does the look evolve? So I said, how about we pick a moment in the movie

where things shift and we change to something else? Okay, what would it be? And so I thought, well, a technique we used actually in the Irishman before was ENR, which is a technique of printing film, motion picture film, that adds contrast and takes away color. And it's pretty dramatic.

So we decided that once the Molly sister's house explodes, Rita's house and all hell breaks loose. Now from then on we don't differentiate between the white people and the Osage. Everybody is seen through ENR high contrast. It's it's harsher. Yeah. The image is harder.

Yeah. So the let's say the last third of the movie has that look to it. And also the lighting, I evolved into something sometimes uncomfortable, like Ernest, we see him several times in hot light, either from a light bulb or on the cells or in the interrogation, he has this ugly light coming from above or in the courtroom,

he's giving his deposition, whatever you call it, and I put direct sun on his face, which is a movie light, but it feels uncomfortable. It feels hot, you know? It's like when you're in a place and the sun's hitting your face, you're not comfortable. So I tried to do that with his character. Was to turn, it seems like around the time of the fires too,

that De Niro set. Yeah, that's part of that too. Yeah, that whole sequence. And also, precisely around there, things get, we allowed ourselves to be a tiny bit surrealistic because it's kind of hell now is developing everybody, you know. How'd you shoot that?

Was that all intentional? Kind of, yes and no. It was one of those things where you designed something and something else happens that you didn't expect. In the case of the fire scenes, we had two cameras. One was shooting a wide shot with the house and the fires and the people moving around, just a wide shot. And then we had another camera with a very long lens. So it's like a telephoto, like a telescope, let's say, shooting just some of the people at the distance. So I had special effects fires with pipes and gas and stuff way in the distance. So I had fires, special effects fires with

pipe pipes and gas and stuff, way in the distance to create silhouettes of the people. And then we had another layer between the camera and those people that have another layer of fire through pipes. And then I had close to the lens off camera just a pipe to create heat waves. So I knew that with these heat heat waves there'd be a distortion to the image But what I didn't count on was that the second layer of fire created a much stronger distortion to the image So we're actually seeing through the the heat waves and and it created it we we First of all, we couldn't get focus on the actors in the distance. Yeah, asked the focus polar, okay, pull to the distortion. So move the focus closer and then suddenly it came alive, you know. So we were actually putting focus on the heat waves themselves and that's what created those weird silhouettes.

Yeah, wild. The hell. It was, yeah, and I remember when we were shooting, we all were surprised and Scorsese was loving it so much that he kept shooting it and asking of the choreographer to move them this way or that way and it was just mesmerizing. Oh wow. And he's got a very specific way of choreographing violence. Yes. Right?

Yes. In fact, on The Irishman, he purposefully, violence, he wanted to shoot it and show it in the same thing, similar thing actually on this film. In a very dry manner where it's maybe on a wide shot, you know, it's not dramatic and in your face and sexy. Right. The opposite. Yes. Ugly and boom, it just happens, you know, in a second. Yeah.

Done. You know, and so we see some of the murders of the Osage in that manner We're just simple We don't do a close-up dramatic close-up of the guy in the gun close to the lens and the focus pulls to the you know trigger Sure, none of that. Yeah, sweat got none of that. Yeah, you know, so so it makes it more disturbing in a way exactly Yeah from the distance. I feel so, yeah. Just last week we had Lily Gladstone on. She's nominated for best actress for her performance

in Killers of the Flower Moon. On one hand, maybe rewatches the film and people commit to the little nuances in it, which kind of bowl over you the first watch, which honestly is kind of what most people give any film is one watch. But there was this whole guardianship program set up.

Osage is being deemed incompetent of handling their own money, literally incompetent Osage is the title that was on your paperwork. You had to have a white person appointed to be your guardian of your money. And it was of benefit to a lot of people to be married to their guardian. Because then you just say, hey, honey, write a check for me to do this. And Osage women, they own everything, culturally.

That's so funny, it's sort of like musicians today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what do you call a musician without a girlfriend? Broke. Homeless. But yeah. But your character, you know, as it evolves in the movie, are acutely aware of this?

Yeah. Acutely aware of some elements of it. The thing that was a big like clue and that came from, I was so grateful in my language lessons to be given this story by Christopher Cote. It's a trickster story. Shalmykasi Coyote is one of their trickster figures. And Coyote is the like hedonistic self-serving like FOP.

And immediately asked around the community and got permission to use that analogy. And everybody was like, oh yeah, absolutely that makes sense. For who? For Leo? For Leo. Yeah, I was like, okay, Molly sees him as this coyote. She sees him as this trickster. So that first scene, calling him out for that, that was something that was added in later. But it's kind of like, alright, I got your number. I know how this story ends right like so Molly You know finding this man who self-admits, you know, he admits it

You know, I like to make a party at night and sleep all day a sure-do-love money sure-do-love whiskey. Yeah, all right good Yeah, easy. Yeah, I get you. You'll yep. I get you. I've got it. I got your number I can handle you and you'll enjoy money, but you'll also write my checks for me. And now you look good. So this works for me. So on both elements, there was definitely a chemistry and a playfulness, but there was definitely a mutual benefit. And then eventually there became real love there.

And you know the elements. With the kids. Yeah, that's a huge part of it. Is you see a man that is so committed and so much loves his kids, there's no way you're gonna suspect that he would do anything to hurt them or you. Even if you do suspect it, you know, how easy it is.

And I think a lot of people who are in relationships that are maybe not this abusive to the point of being poisoned to death, but you know, these dynamics. Yeah, that's a very specific, that's a systemic gaslighting. Yeah, absolutely. But that as a metaphor is what it is. Yep, absolutely.

And as a larger metaphor, committing to this love story was a way of looking at it as an analogy for the broken trust that colonization the United States government has had with indigenous peoples. It's been nothing but entering into trust relationships that are supposed to be mutually beneficial and then just the continual erosion of our sovereignty, which is what you're seeing happen to Mali. And we work within the systems that we can. We maintain our own communities as much as we can. When you're crippled by these situations of, you know, guardianship or being wards of the US government of not having true sovereignty, then there's not a lot of option. There's not a lot of other way out. You have to

be very creative. You have to be very subversive. You have to be very together. And ultimately, you know, where we're at now, though I think contextualized differently, is still directly related to that. Yeah. And we're still continually entering into trust relationships and good faith. Yeah. You know, it's like, so this, yeah, on a microcosm, this relationship felt like a good way to have this conversation for what the film's really about. And with Marty, Marty had seen certain women,

is that what you... Apparently, yeah. Yeah. Isn't that amazing. I'm not sure at what point in the process he saw it, but I know that when he did, he saw what he needed for Molly because somebody like Kelly made a film the way she makes films. Right.

You know, I remember one of the films that I studied and loved, still one of my favorite movies to this day, The Adaptation. Oh yeah, that's great. Charlie Kaufman's script. That's great. So good. I watched that recently, yeah. It's so, and it still holds up.

Every performance, every character, the writing, like the meta-qualities in the writing that are so funny. Like I just, I studied, I've seen that film so many times and I would just study, study, study it. And I remember Nicholas Cage as, you know, Charlie talking about, you know, why can't a story just be about flowers? And I remember thinking that when I was watching, it's like, yeah, talking about, you know, why can't a story just be about flowers? Yeah.

And I remember thinking that when I was watching, it's like, yeah, I'd watch that movie. Then years later, here's Kelly Riker. It's like, oh, this movie, it's kind of just really about horses, kind of really just about ranching. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's saying everything. Right. I think like maybe the neuroses that, that of a writer that Kaufman was kind of tongue-in-cheek handling in that

film is what gets in the way of just the observational quality a lens has and just the trust that your audience, if they've sought out this kind of film, they're going to make those connections themselves. Oh yeah, and Nicolas Cage's relationship with that tape recorder. Okay. It's okay. Hunched over. Dawn of Time. We're starting here.

Yeah. The sweat. The way that he was able to sustain this comedic timing with himself. Yeah. That's just like, that's every actor's dream is to play their own twin, I think. Yeah. He's kind of an awesome character in real life, I imagine, as well. Have you ever met him? I have not, but I love watching his interviews.

Like when unbearable weight of massive talent came out at South by. I remember he was just went on and on in one of his interviews about, yeah, I'm wearing this because I wanted to look like shortbread because now I just really want to eat shortbread. He's a... Sorry, you're a work of art. Yeah, an authentic weirdo. Yep. Yeah.

That was Lily Gladstone, episode 1516. And finally, folks, a talk with a nominee who sadly won't be at the award show this year. Robbie Robertson has nominated posthumously for best score for Killers of the Flower Moon. And I had the chance to talk to him back in 2017, episode 781. This is the repository of all my life shit It's just nice to take it all in. Yeah, and you know it

It either all starts out in a garage or ends up in a garage Yeah, mine ended up in a garage that could go either way to the ending in a garage that could either be a good thing garage. That could go either way too, the ending in a garage. That could either be a good thing. But you didn't start in a garage. Well, there was garages, you know, and this house that the band found up by Woodstock. The pink house. The pink house, big pink, we called it. And in the basement, which I've, I don't even know that I've ever said this before, but when you went down into the basement, it wasn't just the basement, it was a garage too. Oh really?

Yeah, because it was a big door that could open and you could drive a car in. Okay. But we never did because we wanted to use that space. Right. Making music instead. It's funny, that that I think that environment that and I was thinking about this and we'll go back in time in a minute. But like it seems to me that whatever happened in that house, you know, with Dylan and with

you guys seem to set the standard for how to make that kind of music for to how to make connected sort of earthy, you know, music that evolves, you know, as a group. I mean, it seems like now there's a whole resurgence of people aspiring to be what you guys were. You know, at the time, when we did the basement tapes, and this idea of making music in your home. Right. And that was special because I'd had no real expectations to it, so it had such a relaxed atmosphere. Yeah. And it even was like nobody was supposed to hear this.

Right, and wasn't Dylan, it's sort of like, he was sort of kind of considering his mortality after an accident and just kind of hanging out at the time. You know, he had had this accident and he'd hurt himself pretty bad. Right. He had to wear like a neck brace for quite a while. But after that, and when we found this house, it became like the clubhouse, you know, where guys would go every day and hang out.

Like who? Like a street gang. Yeah, you guys. But were there other people hangers on, people around? No, not some, but not too much. And it was a place to go every day, like a workshop or something. It turned into this, and this had been a dream of mine, if we could only have the clubhouse where we would go

every day and we could lock ourselves away from the world and create something that we are meant to do, that we are on a mission to do. And when I took Bob out there to see it, at first, you know, because he'd only made music really in recording studios and things. And when I took him out and showed him this, all of a sudden I could see a light went off over his head

and he was like, can you, can you really make music in here and can you put it down on tape? And all of this was a revelation. And at that time, nobody was doing this. It was really unusual. And it was something that I had in the back of my mind that I thought Les Paul did. Oh, really? Les Paul did. Oh really?

Les Paul. When he was screwing around with the electronics. Right, he had a house. Right. And he had like an echo chamber in the side of a cliff or something. I thought, that's the way you do it. And when I heard his records,

the records that he made with Mary Ford, they didn't sound like anything else. That how do you make a record that doesn't sound like anything else and it's in your own environment? So anyway I'd been talking to the other guys in the band and to Bob about this for a long time. And when we found that place, it was like, this is it. This is Valhalla. This is where we can go, hang out and create and do something that has nothing to do with the rest of the world. That's the late Robbie Robertson on episode seven to 81.

If you want to hear any of these full episodes, add free and also get more Oscar talk from the two bonus episodes we're doing this week. Subscribe to the full Marin. Just click on the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF+. Tomorrow's a regular episode with comedian Rory Scoble. Alright? Okay. I'll talk to you later. Bye.