Y Combinator Startup Podcast - #124 - Jarvis Johnson

Episode Date: May 1, 2019

Jarvis Johnson was previously a software engineer at Patreon, Yelp, and Google. He’s now a YouTuber.You can find him on YouTube at Jarvis Johnson and on Twitter @jarvis.The YC podcast is hosted by Craig Cannon.Y Combinator invests a small amount of money ($150k) in a large number of startups (recently 200), twice a year. Learn more about YC and apply for funding here: https://www.ycombinator.com/apply/***Topics00:00 - Intro00:20 - Jarvis' intro00:50 - Where his videos first got traction1:30 - Being part of the software industry while critiquing it4:05 - How he got into programming6:30 - Moving to California7:50 - Interning at Google then Yelp9:20 - Interviewing multiple times at the same company10:20 - Moving from Yelp to Patreon14:30 - Switching from individual contributor to manager18:35 - Learnings from managing that he applies to himself21:45 - What made Jarvis want to do YouTube full time?30:20 - Investing in yourself31:25 - Making what you want vs talking to viewers35:55 - When did things really start to click for his channel?38:20 - Choosing to make multiple genres of video44:00 - Nathan Allebach asks - Are content creators responsible in any capacity for their audiences?51:05 - Taylor asks - In what ways do you think content creation can benefit one's career in the tech industry?54:40 - Jarvis made a podcast when he was a teenager56:30 - Octopus Blues asks - What lessons did improv teach you/who would you recommend it to, if anyone?58:45 - Predictions for YouTubers and content creators

Hey, how's it going? This is Craig Cannon, and you're listening to Y Combinators podcast. Today's episode is with Jarvis Johnson. Jarvis was previously a software engineer at Patreon, Yelp, and Google. He's now a YouTuber. You can find him on YouTube at Jarvis Johnson and on Twitter at Jarvis. All right, here we go. All right, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. So today, Jarvis Johnson, who is a software engineer and YouTube creator, recently independent YouTube creator. Yeah, it's almost like the reverse. now. Now I'm a YouTube creator and a software engineer. Yeah, I've been wondering that. So, like, I was first drawn to you because you were posting

these software videos. Right. So Matt Hackett, who was Casey Nystatt's co-founder. Oh, yeah, yeah, he posted one of your videos. Oh, I didn't know he followed me on Twitter. I didn't know he posted one of my videos. But yeah, yeah, that was, I think when I started out, I was trying a bunch of things. And the first video that I had that got any traction was actually on Facebook, where I posted a video that was making fun of the technical interview in the software industry. And I posted it in a Facebook group called Hackathon Hackers or something like that. And they kicked me out for self-promotion. But before they did, it had like started going viral and got like 300,000 views or something.

Oh, okay. So I was like, all right, guys. Yeah, I mean, there are so many things I want to cover. But this is like an interesting angle because you're both the beneficiary of the software industry. sure, but then like criticizing it too. Yeah, yeah. And I'm wondering how you tow that line. Well, I think that the way I think about it is that the software industry is extremely

popular and has gotten off kind of scot-free and extremely glorified for a really long time. And being in it and being someone who like had this dream of entering the industry and like and, you know, being a productive contributing member of it. And then coming and doing that, I both was really gratified with the work. that I've been able to do, but also realize there's a lot of stuff that people aren't talking about for whatever reason. And just like liking to make fun of things or liking to try and be funny and criticize things. It seemed like a good sort of opportunity to do that. Yeah, it's kind of like a softball. Yeah, yeah. Because I was like, wow, it's like we, everyone complains about this stuff.

And a lot of comedy is just like connecting how with what people are already feeling and thinking. So yeah that's when uh when we did comedy hack day we put out this video called well deserved which was a place to sell your privilege i don't know if you ever saw that video i didn't it was really good but basically like this was of the time when a sandwich video just happened and every company was putting out the same kind of like soft music video with the big sweeping shots of san francisco yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and i mean i think that that's what things like silicon value the show do really well. And like if you, I think I benefited from the fact that I was coming from the inside.

And so I had a lot of information that I could then condense down hopefully to something that was like palatable to people who were both in and outside of the industry. Yeah. But I mean, in spite of the criticism, I think you're actually doing a lot of good for the world, like getting people into programming. Yeah, yeah. And I, um, thank you. I don't, I think that I don't.

don't think about that as much when I'm making this stuff, but I do still, to this day, get a lot of messages from people who tell me that. And I'm super grateful. And I feel a little guilty because nowadays I'm not talking as much about tech stuff. But I think it's because I needed a bit of a break from it because I was like spending all my time, you know, working my tech job. And then if I was going home and like working on tech videos, it like felt like my whole life was consumed by, by this industry when really there's like more dimensions to, you know, as a person and also like what I wanted to do creatively. Yeah, of course, which I want to talk about.

But I also like want to cover the software stuff. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I watched one of your videos where you're talking about programming the TI 84. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But how did you get into it? And then like, how did you even end up moving to California? Okay, yeah.

So, I, you know, the, there's like a longer story. I've definitely tried to dry out this like narrative into a bunch of videos. But the basic story is that I, a friend of mine who's still like a really like great friend of mine who lives in New York turned me on to, he's a Android developer or mobile developer at large now. He's just doing everything. But he turned me onto the TI 84 like TI basic. Yeah. Language. And so I started playing around with that in my chemistry class. And we would just like make silly games. I was just, I just remember like making a thing where I could. just like move Feta around. And that was like the coolest thing in the world to me, just being able to make something that didn't exist, even though it was like the most basic thing in the world. And then that was after we had already tried to learn C++. So I went, I tried to learn C++ when I was a sophomore in high school because I listened to a podcast called Geek Nights, which is like these two

New York tech professionals who were talking about. I think there was just two 22 year old guys who made this podcast after they graduated. And I found. it when I was like 14 and I was like, oh, interesting. And I tried to learn to program and I failed. C++ not a great first language to learn, especially if it's just from a book. And so then I came back to it with the TI basic. That was a little bit easier to go down. And then I didn't really care for, I wasn't passionate about any of the top, any of the subjects that I was taking in high school. So when it came time to pick a college major, computer science was like a thing that felt like more palatable to me. And then I went to Georgia Tech for my undergrad in computer science.

And I just found like such a supportive community there that it was able to like help support my natural interest but also like help me through the hard times. Because it's not like I, computer science is like not. an easy degree, um, by any means. Um, and, and so was there a kind of an inkling like early on? They're like, oh, okay, like I could, I could do this. Um, doing like, CS, like following that whole path, the career path, all of it. Well, oh, yeah, that's a good, yeah. So the other part of the question was like moving out to California and stuff. Um, I, I think the first moment of like, career, even thinking about, I, I hadn't at any point thought about career, like anything beyond college. I was just like, oh, go to college and then you get a job, I guess. But at Georgia Tech, there were a lot of

career fairs and there were a lot of companies visiting, excuse me, there were a lot of companies visiting for recruiting purposes. And I was like, oh, Facebook is here, Microsoft this year. These are just like things that I know of from like my computer screen, but they're like, there are actual people that work there. And there was kind of a culture of glorifying that a little bit where it's like everybody's wearing company swag and then it becomes a thing that everybody wants. And it kind I felt a bit like a game to me where that was like what people cared about you're supposed to do. So it's kind of like how when your parents are like get good grades and you're like not sure why you should get good grades.

That's kind of how I felt. I was like, I guess I should like go do this thing. But I was lucky enough to like get some internships. And I interned at Google when I was a sophomore. And that was like my first big moment of whoa. Like this industry is like a kind of whole thing happening. And from then on I was like, okay, I'll probably like come out here after. after I graduate.

Okay. And so then my understanding is then you interned at Yelp. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And you decided to work there. Yeah.

I decided not to go back to Google, not for any reason other than wanting to try something else. I don't know. I don't know. I had a lot of peers who were, you know, doing an internship, their sophomore year or their freshman year and then doing it coming back over and over and over and then going to work at that company full time. And that never quite made sense to me because, uh, The company can never value the intern that much, and you miss out on getting a lot of experience with a bunch of very different companies because companies at different stages or even at exactly the same stage can operate completely differently.

And you're never really going to know what you like unless you try a couple of different things. So I went to Yelp just to like try something new and it was in San Francisco and I didn't like living in the South Bay when I was entering at Google and didn't want to do a big commute. So, Yelp was a good fit there. And I just had such good mentorship that I wanted to come back full time. Yeah, I think a lot of these jobs can create a scarcity mindset in people. Yeah. And I think, oh, man, I don't know if I could ever get the Google job again. The reality is most likely you can.

Over a long enough time period, especially because there's definitely, you know, false negative rates and false positive rates in the interviewing process. But there's also so many opportunities that it's bound to, even if you don't. don't do well in the interview this year. You can try every six months. You can try every year. And there's so many of those opportunities that something's going to land. It really only takes one. Yeah.

I thought that was actually a really nice piece of advice that you gave because you interviewed it Yelp twice. Yeah. And most people think like, oh, man, once I, you know, fail the Facebook interview, I'm going. Yeah. Because it's such a, you grow so much and so much changes. I also didn't, I also interviewed a Google or interviewed for the Google internship and failed it and then got a call back for like a different program and they like used my failed

interview and I didn't have to interview again. So it's like a weird situation of like, you know, that's actually maybe a theme in my life. It's like this seemed like a failure at the time, but it was actually not. I just like framed it that way in my head. And so like I, I want us to be mindful of how we frame our failures and like the narratives of our lives because they may not actually be that. Yeah. Like, objectively speaking.

Right. I mean, like you said, over a long enough time for him too. Like when you keep doing things, you keep getting up. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. And yeah. Just keep getting up. I know. I mean, that's really the story of it all, especially with creators. Yeah.

So at what point do you decide, okay, Yelp, this has been cool. Like, I want to move to a smaller startup. So it was more, I definitely could have stayed at Yelps.

for a long time because I had like a lot of good people around me that were supporting me and stuff like that. My rate of growth, at least as I was perceiving it personally, was slowing down. But it was more that this opportunity came up that was kind of, you know, not something that was in my purview, which was working at Patreon. I was like at a, I was in India at like a wedding and a friend of mine had just started working there and was like, hey, you should interview. And I was like, oh, wow, like, should I? I don't know. Like, because it had always been, I had been a fan of, like, my YouTube and tech career, like, very intertwined because I knew about Patreon because I've been following Hank and John Green, who are, you know, YouTubers who've been around

since, like, the beginning. And I've been following them since, or very early on in their YouTube careers, they had started something called subable that Patreon then acquired. And that's how I was aware of Patreon. So I was like, oh, I could be working in like, I could be working on stuff that they like care about and that they use. And that value proposition was like enough for me to at least interview. Yeah. And so it was really my proximity to YouTube that inspired me to like make, make the change. And then that and I felt more confident in my technical skills. Because when I initially started out, I think I wanted to work at Google because I was afraid that I couldn't hack it at a smaller like startup. Meaning that you wouldn't have the mentors? Yeah. Or like I didn't know enough.

Like I knew like I did a lot of hackathons and stuff in college. And I had all these friends who were just like self-starters who like who like knew. who could really just build something all their own, the full stack or whatever. And I didn't feel super confident in my skill set. Like I wanted to work at a bigger company because I thought that I would learn patterns. I would develop a skill, like something that I could then work, work downward from and like know how things scale up for larger companies and then apply them, apply them to smaller companies. But I had enough confidence in myself at that point. It's not necessarily about idea either. I mean, I heard you mentioned you had student debt when you graduated.

And I was in the same boat. Yeah. Like, I didn't work at the big company. Yeah, yeah. That's a different kind of pain. Yeah, no, I actually, that's another good example. I think there's a safety there. I think there's a lot of advice that's going to say like, oh, you might learn so much more at the startup. And it's like, maybe that's true. But I think you should be asking, like, am I going to learn the right stuff? Am I going to learn good habits and good patterns? Or am I going to be like trying to build something with like the fire like the worry that the company is going to collapse on my shoulders? And I'm going to be doing that for like far less money. And if you've got, you know, you're in personal finances and take care of or you've got

dependents or you're helping out your family and stuff, you, I think that the smart decision in a lot of, I know that the smart decision for me was to work at a bigger company out of, out of college and take care of all that. Because the, I mean, yeah, it was just like I, if I had student loans now, I wouldn't have been able to do half the stuff that I was like able to do. I mean, it's also a complete mindset shift. Yeah, yeah. As soon as you're in the black, you're like way more optimistic about things you could try out.

And you're able to invest, you know, all that money that you're investing in student loans. You can now invest in your own like financial safety net because like that was not something that I had. And so I needed to build that for myself. before I could think about, kind of like put on your oxygen mask before like helping children or whatever. Yeah, dude, I want to talk about this as like in related to creative confidence and risk aversion. But before we get there, for sure, for sure. I want to talk about you switching from an individual contributor as an engineer to a manager. Right. Why did you want to do that? So I always

enjoyed the, and I always, I enjoy the act of like engineering. I like making things. I like creative problem solving. But I had in the back of my head that like there were there were other ways for me to contribute to use more of my like full skill set. Because I also had this background in college. Like I was a teaching assistant. I like breaking down the problems and I like the people aspects of the technical roles. And it wasn't that I felt better suited to that than anyone else, but it was more that I noticed that a lot of my, I noticed that it was rare that I cared about that stuff, that that stuff excited me as much as the technical problems. And in my, in my career, and in my life, I think about the rare combinations of skills that I

have rather than the, like, absolute, like, value of those abilities. And I'm like, well, if I can take this, like, technical ability, and I can also like spend a lot of time talking to people and thinking about like larger picture stuff and also career development and stuff like that. That's something that I'm curious about. All that combined with the fact that I had a really good manager at Yelp who was like an inspiration for what, in an example of what like a good management could do for a team. And that was like super cool to see. And I was like, wow, like it would be neat to like, like, walk in that person's like footsteps or to try to model myself after after that right well i think it's

one of these things where you're studying it in school or on the side c s and you think man this is fun but i don't want to completely live in the console right um and i very much felt like that doing like hackathons and stuff on the side you know like i was an english major like yeah yeah you know interacted with people right right right um but it's a little scary to think about yeah no that's definitely a thing like i i In college, I lived that lifestyle, that sort of archetypal, you know, what's the kind word to use? But I like, you know, I had my hood up. I was like, in my terminal, I like used, you know, the cool Linux distributions or whatever.

Just my keyboard. Yeah. I didn't quite switch to Dvorak as my keyboard, but I judged people who were using Macs, which is like the lupiest one. But yeah, like I lived that life a little bit and I just felt I felt that I could combine more. Well, all of that's to say that I knew that I eventually wanted to try it out. But then the opportunity presented itself and it was at, you know, at Patreon where I had already been there for almost two years. And I had like a lot of trust and a lot of. support from the people around me and in a pure circle of other like people in management.

So I wasn't like flying completely solo. So it felt like the right environment to try it. And then I did it for almost a year. But the in leaving the tech industry was not a function of like not enjoying that role or not thinking. Like I think that if I were to rejoin the tech industry now, I don't know. I don't know whether or not I would go for like a leadership role or like an IC role. Yeah. But I know that I definitely had more fuel in me for keeping going with management.

Interesting. Do you think the management experience has made you a better individual contributor? Because like now that's my understanding is it's just you, right? You're one-man shop. Has it improved? I don't know, your goal setting, your efficiency, any of that kind of stuff? I think a lot about process. And I think that thinking about process and like operating efficiency is like a super

valuable skill set to learn. That was another attractive thing about management is like it would be cool to learn the types of things that would make me a good manager, whether or not I use them as a manager in my career or I use them wherever I go next or with whatever I do next. So yes, I do think about that. I think I value my time a lot more than I would have. I think I'm just more aware of time. I'm more likely to spend money to solve a problem as like a business expense than I am to do it myself.

Even if like the part of me that like grew up poor and doesn't like spending money is thinking, oh no, this is going to be a waste of money. I'm better at sort of arranging the pieces to go, no, no, no, this is like the right way to. Yeah. Well, that's also that's also a dangerous trap where you like you think I can do it better than anyone else. I have to do this incredibly time-intensive process. That's another thing that's like super valuable about management is like giving away and trust, like not being the person to actually write the code in a lot of situations is a super valuable exercise because you have to delegate and you have to trust and you have to know

that you're, yeah, the whole thing doesn't rest on you. I think that that's like a useful skill for anybody to have. Yeah, no, I love the, I'm not much a fan for business books, but there's one called the E-myth. I don't know if you've read that one. It's one of, in my opinion, the few good ones. It could be summarized in like a couple pages. So basically it's like most people who are, say, like an engineer, want to go out and do their own thing because they're like, oh, man, I won't have to deal with the bullshit of the company life, et cetera, et cetera. And in doing so, they don't really realize that like running your own business is mostly not.

writing code. It's like doing sales and all that stuff. And the big takeaway is you need to spend more time working on your business, not in your business. And that's what you learn when you start managing people, right? Like, then you can abstract it and you can get better at that. Yeah, I think that's honestly what I go through a lot now with YouTube is that a lot of the time I'm spending it on anything is not necessarily on creating content. It's about, it's on like essentially management tasks and not like the IC work. And, and, and, I do draw a lot of parallels between like making videos and software engineering because to me it all like scratches the same itch. Yeah. Um, of just like making something like bringing something like bringing something into existence. My, you know, Adobe Premiere setup feels a lot like my VIM setup where I've got like JK, you know, L or whatever to like move things around. Um, and and yeah, uh, yeah, I, I definitely agree with that. Okay. And so what, what was the moment? Was it just like, oh, okay, I can monetize my channel to a certain amount. I can monetize my channel to a certain amount. I can.

can make the jump or was there a particular moment that made you want to fully break from Patreon? So I've mentioned before that I'm like a very risk-averse person. So it took me a while to think of doing YouTube stuff full-time as a clean break. I think I had a bunch of contingency plans in my head of like, well, maybe I'll work part-time or maybe I'll do this or maybe I'll do that. And it took a while to say, no, I need to do this clean break thing because otherwise I'm never going to grow. And I'm going, it's possible that I don't even invest as much as I can in this creative endeavor because I am afraid I'm trying to like hold on to two things. There wasn't necessarily a threshold that I necessarily hit. Monetarily.

it was more that I had spent about a year at that point juggling both where in some ways I'm amazed that I was able to do like my regular job and also YouTube because I would like wake up at 6 a.m. and like write or like work on a video. And then like the benefit of the tech industry is that like you could go into work at like 10 or even 11 and it's not like weird. And so I would just. try to use that to my advantage so I would wake up like hyper early and then like kind of work two jobs yeah work two jobs essentially and and I can't do that now um maybe which is maybe a good thing like in my in my head even I can't do it now so even though it's my even even though it's my only job now doing YouTube stuff I can't like harness that uh energy you got soft uh maybe it's like different it's definitely it's much healthier yeah I think it's just I think it's just healthier because like the point that I was getting out with that is I hit like a breaking point. I was like,

this is no longer a sustainable because it's like I don't like see my friends or anything like that. I'm like just this working machine. So, because the other part of that was I was also working weekends. Yeah. And while still just trying to figure, like a lot of my YouTube stuff is like trying to figure things out like with like what I want to even make rather than making stuff sometimes. So I would just spend a lot of time researching stuff or like in.

empty word documents. It's just like never feeling satisfied with like your output is like a really dangerous. Interesting. So was there any one particular moment where you're just like underwater on everything and it just broke? Or how did it go? Yeah. I think there is this time towards the end of last year where when I started managing I I kind of made an agreement with myself not to do any IC work.

and because I thought that was going to help me, like, transition better. And I was just, like, doing a lot more coaching and stuff because the benefit of switching into management at a company that I'd already been in I see at is I had a lot of context on stuff. So I was able to use that to, like, not actually have to write the code myself. And then there was a period towards the end of the year where we had switched into doing work that required a lot of, like, back end expertise. And our team, like, load out didn't have people who were, like, had, that background at the company.

Like a lot of people who are willing to learn, which is, which is amazing. But like the, what we needed was like a back-end tech lead. And that was like a role that I've held before. But we can just like grab that person. Like it all takes time. So I also started doing IC work again. And when I was like doing IC work and management work and making videos, I was like, I can't keep doing this.

This is like, this is the worst. And so then, so what also happened sort of at the same time, was it like YouTube started like blowing up. Yeah. And my YouTube had gone from a thing that like I could just like take a month off if I really needed to to something where like I had like 300 or 400,000 subscribers, not overnight, but like over a month basically. Which is insane growth.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's like I, yeah, we can talk about that. But. And I was like, well, there's like an opportunity here. like what happens if I'm actually able to like put more into this because at a certain point I could I was only making a video every like two weeks or a month if that and and it was like things were still happening so I like really wanted to yeah I didn't want the ship to sail without

me capitalizing on a little bit and I still like I don't I'm not really a regrets person but I'm like oh yeah I definitely felt like I left a lot on the table like in that time because I couldn't capitalize on the moment because I didn't capitalize on the moment because I still like I don't I'm not really a regretts person because I think that the moment has passed and now I'm like waiting for the next moment in terms of growth because I think that you do growth happens in like waves

well I mean based on my like limited experience it's like you get caught in the algorithm for whatever particular reason and it just goes but then other times it's really slow just plotting along yeah yeah yeah no that that's like that's a thing for sure

it's something that I've observed happening to a bunch of other channels where it almost feels like a storm, uh, in terms of if you look at the analytics, it's like, oh, you're suddenly gaining thousands of subscribers a day. Um, and, and then that, that that's not happening for like, whereas like normally, maybe you're getting 500 or a thousand subscribers a day or 500 or something like that. And, um, yeah, that, that storm passes, uh, eventually. Um, and, and while it's there, I, I do think that there, I do think that there's like there's like ways to to capitalize on it.

And I was like, okay, I don't know how long this moment's going to last, but maybe, you know, maybe this is something I could do for more of my time. So I started thinking about it, like having conversations. One, you know, one conversation I had was with like Jack Conti, the CEO of Patreon. He was always been like super supportive of me. And so I have like an immense gratitude. him because I just remember having like 2,000 YouTube subscribers and like having a one-on-one with him just like about YouTube where I was just like, I don't know.

Were they all clued in? Everyone at your work? Well, I think people were aware. Me and another coworker had started our channels at the same time and hers blew up kind of immediately. So I think everyone was kind of aware that a couple of us were doing YouTube stuff. And I remember, yeah, going to Jack and being like, I don't know what's going on. I feel like I'm making these like bangers.

And like they're just like it's just not happening. And we like made this, you know, he went through this exercise of, you know, it's the beginning of the next year. You know, what is the press release? Last year was your like perfect year. What is the press release for what happened? And it's like, well, I made these videos. I whatever. It's like how many subscribers do you have?

What is your relationship with your fans? And going through that exercise was like, just put me at ease about. about like whether or not I was on like the right track and and I had a conversation and so like that was just like I was just continuing to chat along and I had a I called Jack and told him that I was like thinking about potentially doing YouTube more like more full time and he was kind of like you know as a creator you've got to you've got to do this or it was more like I was more As a CEO, I don't want you to leave, but as a creator, you need to do this. You're going to kick yourself if you don't seize this opportunity.

But maybe there's something we could work out in the middle. And so we worked on that for a bit. And it was like several months before I eventually, I was initially planning to do something more part-time, but I eventually decided to make the clean break. But I tried to have the most seamless transition out. where I like stayed on for like essentially I put in my like three months notice rather than like my like two weeks or whatever um to like wrap up projects and finish finish things up um and then after having those conversations it like just became more and more real I knew I knew

that I had saved enough money to um give it a period of time like if I wanted to spend a year without having to worry about making money from YouTube I would be able to do that um because I saved pretty aggressively after I paid off my student loans for for something I don't know what for. Right. Right. But it's like for the capital, like investing in yourself. And so I'm like, I'm like, yeah, from that, it just became like, okay, this is more and more feasible to take the leap and who knows how long it'll last.

Right. I mean, it's tricky because obviously YouTube's fickle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think the relationship between creators and entrepreneurs is very similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You just feel like, oh, shit, like now is the time to build this channel. I'm having like the early drips of users come in. Right, right.

I have to jump on this right now. There's like a clear market opportunity here. It's, I don't try. Unfortunately, my brain does like think about things in those terms often. So I have to pull myself back and just like making stuff that I, you know, want to. So this is the next thing I wanted to talk about. So you mentioned it already, like the relationship with fans. And it's something that I'm always curious about with our channel that I didn't do a better job of, like, talking to the users.

basically. Right, right. But then on the other hand, you're like, I'm, you know, I kind of want to make the stuff I want to make. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so how do you balance that? Yeah. Well, it's definitely not easy.

I, and I take a lot from the fact that I just witnessed a lot of user interviews and creator interviews when I was at Patreon. And thinking about how, you know, random users relate to, to a product. a lot of people, just humans in general, don't know what they want. And that's like dismissive, but I want to like bring that back with like, we don't know what we want, but at the same time, what we are saying we want does mean something. It does like indicate some, you know, maybe it's a problem. Like in the user experience world, you're trying to like get at the underlying problem that someone's having so you can address that. and that's kind of how I try to take the criticism when I'm thinking about it.

I, like, YouTube comments hurt my feeling sometimes, but, uh, same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, I'm not going to, I'm not going to lie about that. Um, so I'm not, I'm not perfect of this, but in terms of how I let it inform, inform the content, I do a lot of, like, reachouts and asking people what they want to see, but I don't take it as, like, requests or I don't, who do you reach out to? I'll like, do a poll on like the YouTube community tab or I'll ask, I'll tweet something or I'll post something on the Instagram question and answer thing, which I wish it was easier to export the answers from that. And I use that as like a sense of, you know, taking the pulse on things, but you also have to qualify that with like or couch it in, you know, this is the 5% of my audience that actually follows me.

on social media or this is the percentage of people who will actually say something. And so you've got to use that as like one data point, but then you're also looking at your actual metrics when and then you are, you know, where you want to take things. Because no one would, it's kind of like in the tech world, there's like, or I guess in product world, there's a thought that you like can't iterate yourself to a product vision. Yeah, I've heard this before. It's like all these people are just like A, B. testing and reaching some like local maximum.

Exactly. That's exactly how I, like, this is the one place I think. That's exactly how I think about it, where I'm like, it's, you can find those, those local, those local extreme extremities, but not know that there's like this, you know, right? That's not a home run. And so you've got to be, you still got to have your vision. And yeah. And so like that's, that's a real thing.

So it's like, there's no amount of listening. listening to people is extremely important, but I also don't know if, like, there's no amount of listening to people that ultimately, like, makes you successful. It's just like a piece. It's like an important piece of the puzzle because you don't want to be out of touch. Like, you have to know how your stuff is being received if you are making stuff for people to enjoy. Because I, as much as I like the concept of, like, I made this thing. I don't care how you feel about it. Usually people are making something. something to be enjoyed by people or for their message to be received. And you do have to have

some idea of whether or not that's happening. And so you can't, you turn into Kanye if you're like, you turn into like 2019 Kanye if you like don't really care what people think and you're just like going off your own ego. So it's a, it's a delicate balance, but I try to, I try to look at everything in like a beautiful soup. Yeah. Was there any point where you realize it like your Because you haven't put out that many videos. I put out like 70 videos. So it's not that many. Which like for people who don't pay attention to YouTubers, that's nothing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's like, yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, I mean, it's do great work. No, no, no, no, no. People put out a video a day, for example. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's like, uh, we'll go ahead with your question. Well, my question was, was there any particular learning where things really started

to click for you when it really started to grow? Was it adopting the mentality of going all in? Was it a certain stylistic change? Was it obviously the tech videos did well for you? Yeah, I think the first thing that I figured out worked were tech videos. And so then my channel became me doing stuff that I wanted to do. And then when the numbers would start to die down, I would like make a tech video. And like what annoys me, what bothered me is that like that's like maybe the most confident

I've ever felt in video ideas and like how things will do. because I made, I would, I could make a video, I made a video called like, why you shouldn't be a software engineer. And I made it in preparation to make a video about me getting braces and talking about the journey of that because I knew that like that would like pop up the, the impressions or whatever. And then that, that video like did so, so well. And it's like something that I spent so little time on.

And like that it's, it like taught me a lot about how like the effort that you put in doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean anything for the quality. it doesn't mean anything for how it will be received. And also, like, yeah, you just can't judge. I think me as a person, and I think a lot of people have, like, just, I'll just talk about myself. I have, like, a completely whacked out, like, idea of how I value my own work and my own output. Okay. And it's lessons like that.

There's tons of lessons on my channel of, like, how I'm completely out of touch with that. But I was saying something about the tech video or was there a moment that I felt like I figured it out? I think no, except for the fact that I knew that tech videos did better than non-tech videos. So I would like throw tech videos in there to like sort of tent pole the other content while I was like continuing to experience. Yeah. Because now if you look at your videos like it's there are some tech videos still. but the lion's share of them are not. And not that many channels do that.

And not that many companies think, like, okay, we're going to have this product for this audience and then this product for this audience. And like the overlap might not be the same. Yeah. In my mind, there was a thread that connected all of that stuff. Yeah. And I still think there is a thread that connects all that stuff.

But a lot of what dictates, what does well and what doesn't is like the click through rate on the thing. And if you see a through line between, you know, I made a video called the worst software engineering advice I've ever seen. And it was like my first foray into the commentary genre because I was really enjoying watching those videos on YouTube. And the reason I was, the reason I made that video is because I was like, okay, I know that people like tech videos from this channel and I really like commentary videos. So let me like make a tech commentary video that I can then pivot hopefully into just commentary

videos because I wanted to get people used to like that format for me so that then I could like remove the tech. But what I, you know, misjudged at the time, this I don't think it ended up mattering a whole great deal. But like what I misjudged at the time was if the click through on even though at the end of that software engineering advice video, I talked about this channel called Five Minute Crafts. When I actually made a video about Five Minute Crafts, no one clicked on it. And that's fine.

But it's an indication of audience expectation and like the story that you're telling to the audience and the value that that audience gets from your channel. So I found out that there are just a lot of people, the value that they got for my channel was strongly correlated with like me talking about tech because they wanted to get this like information from tech. And so if that value prop wasn't in the, wasn't immediately obvious, then they, they wouldn't click on it. And so like that was a, that was like the takeaway from that moment.

Yeah. Yeah. It's tricky, man. There are so many weird things that you can do. Like just depending on title. And at the end of the day, like, you know, you just keep pushing it out. Yeah. Yeah.

No, for sure, for sure. Yeah. I guess the point of all of that and of learning all of that was to like develop a, I did have a content strategy of like how am I. I realized that you know, you can't, you're not really, what's the phrase? Like you can't choose what you're famous for or whatever. I made some tech videos because they were getting the most traction, but then it like kind of got away from me.

And even though my channel wasn't a tech channel to me, it was like a tech channel to other people. Totally. And it's like I've like run the numbers. At like no point did my channel have more than 50% tech videos. But because in my head I was like that was never the thing. But and now to this day of my 70 videos like 20 of them are tech videos. But the thing that resonated with the first like bigger audience was that.

And so that's what it was to them. And so when I made stuff outside of that, I had to have, like, stronger hypotheses about the other people that I was reaching and, like, how people were converting across the different styles of video. I mean, I think this is, like, why, I mean, in many ways, because humans are so good at rationalizing things, they just say, okay, fine. Yeah, you see it happen with products all the time. Yeah. And, like, in many ways, it's great, right? Provided it's not harming the world in a massive way. But I think it's hard when you view yourself maybe more in, like, you see yourself maybe more in, like, you.

like the artist category. Sure, yeah. I don't know. I think, yeah, I guess, you know, the big, a big moment where I was like, oh, no, this is not what I'm going for. For me on my channel was it, like, on one of my videos, they were saying, like, oh, great information, but I really wish, like, it didn't have all the comedy sketches in it or whatever. Like, couldn't you just get straight to the information? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's like, oh, no, like, you come to the wrong place. Like, I'm actually only talking about that information so that, like, someone will watch me, like, try to be funny. It's my main critique of a lot of tech, you know, whatever, like sub-communities where it's all like up vote-based. There's just like there's not a lot of joy. Yeah. And I think that, and tech is something that I'm still like, I still want to talk about, but I'm, I don't have a lot of energy for it in this moment in this current like moment. And I haven't figured out what I want my voice to be there.

Yeah. Because I, what I, I eventually. made a second channel for tech stuff, and I just haven't really posted on it. But like my first video that I posted did well, so I could tell that like the, the audience is like still... I thought they were good. I watched this. Yeah. And like, and then you did the, uh, the AMA, which is funny. Oh, yeah. And like, oh, I accidentally made that, that live video public. And I, I have an edited version of that for an actual post. Um, but then I was just like, all right, maybe we'll just leave. Yeah. Um, but yeah, It's like I want to get back to that, but I just like haven't.

I don't have my shit together is essentially the. And it's also fair when you're like, hey, listen, I've expressed these certain ideas. Like I know that many people might want to hear the same thing over and over again, but like that's not really where I'm going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that I'm sure I can do like some sort of advice or Q&A type thing, but it's just like not where my attention is right now. And so a lot of what I talk about is like a function of where my attention is. Which is great.

Yeah, yeah. So you did get a bunch of questions, some tech related from Twitter. Oh, yeah, and that's totally chill. So one question I really liked was from Nathan Olibach. So you know who this is? No. He runs the Steakham's Twitter account. Oh, yeah.

That's a lawyer. I don't even, is the Steakam's Twitter account good? Oh, it's a great example of like the, what brand Twitter has turned into. It's kind of like the anti-brand Twitter brand Twitter. So it's like the Moon Pie Twitter? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's great.

I made a couple of videos about brand Twitter, and I met Nathan through that on the internet, and we've kept in touch. Yeah, great guy. That's cool. I like that guy. Yeah, I'm very much digging that genre. Yeah. So his question is, are content creators responsible in any capacity for their audiences? I think there's a really good question, and I think the answer is absolutely, yes, in a big capacity, maybe not 100% responsible.

Um, because like if someone who, like you get this with PewDie Pye, like, uh, he's so big. Yeah. And it's like if anyone does anything bad in his name, it's like, what is his responsibility to that? And I think that he does have, you know, a responsibility. Um, because I think that there's a power, you know, he's not solely responsible for these, for these people because they're free thinking individuals. Uh, but when you have that power dynamic, um, and, um, and, um, you know, he's not solely responsible for these, for these people,

yeah, when you when you have that power dynamic, there are going to be people who are doing things for you or for your, to get your attention or to benefit from your, your brand or your name or whatever. And I think the best I can do in that situation is to try to call out when things don't seem like right to me. Like if someone, if someone like says something, mean in my name or something. I feel a responsibility to call that out. And to try to look within myself as to like why a person who acted that way, uh, it is, enjoys my, my content.

You know what I mean? Um, and then, and then make, you know, whatever changes are necessary. I've been lucky enough that like, I haven't run into this,

but, um, I think you see it a lot with these like big influencers. So the one that comes to mind always is like Rogan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like at this point,

uh, or PewDiePie, right? Like, they're making something. And because of their actions, like, maybe their action in a certain interview was, like, not preparing a lot. Yeah. And so, therefore, you're, like, somewhat responsible for misinforming millions of people. Right, right.

Oh, yeah. I mean, uh, I think that, I think that creators should be on the whole, like, we should all feel a great sense of responsibility. That's really what I'm trying to get at. Like, I don't want to call out anyone in particular, but I, I just think that, like, when you have a platform and you have, influence over people, it's not fair that you get all the benefits of that without any of the consequences.

And so, you know, with influencer marketing, I think I think I have a problem with is when people are selling products that could be actively harmful to their audiences to like make a quick buck. That's like, you know, I get some brand offers now where I get stressed out over. trying to look into whether or not the company is like something that I could I could support. And I think that that's right. I think that we should feel like a little more pain there and not just like, oh yeah, sign the check, like pay me a bunch of money. Well, I mean, like even more abstractly, you know, you're kind of in the business of

consuming people's attention. Yeah. And, you know, it's like a little complicated there. Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like there is a trust that is built. between the audience and the creator. Like I want people to know that I am thinking about, like, what I'm saying, how I'm saying it, what I'm promoting, the type of behavior, like, from in terms of products or behaviors that

I'm promoting, what I'm calling out. Like, I think that, like, a lot of times, like, what I choose to talk about specifically is the results of a lot of thought. And, like, how is this going to be perceived? Am I punching down? And is just like, you know, I think it's a thing that, yeah, we should all be, when we're using, when we're, when we're responsible for people's attention, we should, you know, not take that lightly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it can be deceptive because you see your thumbnails and you're like, oh, this is just some, like, YouTubey stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, totally. And that's, like, kind of the game that you play. Yeah, we haven't gone down that path yet. Yeah, I mean, it's tricky. I mean, for me, the most is that, you know, I've made videos that are called, like, this is the worst channel on YouTube where that's like hyperbole for sure but at the same time like

if you come in for that and then you stick around and then you see like the actual statement that I'm trying to make then it's like I don't feel too bad about that. That's fine. You're not as like negative as your titles would make you seem. That's actually fascinating to me as well. I and I've been experimenting with how to you know like Mr. Are you familiar with Mr. Beast? No, I don't know. So he's a he's a huge YouTuber one of the biggest YouTubers right now who's new. A lot of what he does is like you know gives away a bunch of money to like a whole. homeless person or like he like puts 10, 100 million orbies in his friend's backyard,

like these giant stunts that involve like a lot of money. Casey and I said just had him on doing an interview. It's like maybe a good intro to him, but he's given away like, he's got like 18 million subscribers saying now. He's like given away like $2 million or something. And it's fascinating because one of the things that he says is that, you know,

a lot of people think you need negativity for clicks, but you can also do clickbait with positivity. I'm still trying to figure out how to like, because I think I'm a pretty optimistic, positive, and kind of cheesy person. And I'm trying to figure out how to translate that. But I haven't quite gotten there yet. Yeah, I mean, because like that angle can also be off-putted in because like, oh, Jarvis is just like virtue signaling here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right, right. And it's like, it's like, no, no, no. It's like, let's just be like, let's just try to be real here. And negativity is just like an attention grabber. But a lot of people do, when you frame something like that, do walk away with a negative perception or the wrong perception. And you know what? Going back to the responsibility point, there have been situations where people are like, oh, we have to do this to like get back at this person. And I was like, no, like, that's not how we operate here, you know.

And I try to, like whenever I've seen that happen, which hasn't been, hasn't been much, I try to say, no, like, we use our words. We use like sort of well thought out criticism as like our, you know, ammunition because I don't want people to go, you know, harass anybody. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. All right. Taylor asks, in what way do you think content creation can benefit one's career in the tech industry?

Like I find a lot of similarities between creating content and making software. Like, you're drawing, you've got point A and point B. you want to like get to this end via via this means and you're to swap out the means of like a video or like a piece of software. So exercising that in different mediums is is ultimately going to help you like think about ways to solve problems. You'll apply, you know, something that you learned. I apply a lot of what I've learned in software in making videos. and in terms of like how, I don't know, you navigate your timeline or, I don't know, even other stuff. But there's another way of like that it helps, I think, where you are able to build like a personal brand.

But that's tricky though, right? That's tricky. I think the question is, I mean, you can cut it in multiple ways. Yeah. But like that visibility is both great until it isn't for certain people. Or and like do you even want this content to be related at all to tech? I think that's another thing to be. Yeah, because I see people asking about it all the time.

And you're like, well, maybe I don't want to talk about my work related stuff all the time. And so like, you know, if your videos were just like people smashing pies in your face, That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, that's not necessarily beneficial or detrimental. Yeah, but another way that it could help if you are, like, if you want to make content that is around tech, then if you're teaching something, obviously, like, that can, you'll understand things better when you have to frame it towards an audience that, like, doesn't

understand the thing. Yeah. That was something that I learned from being, like, a teaching assistant where I was like, let's talk about, you know, depth for research or whatever. Let's talk about Dykster's algorithm. And then, like, working from, you know, completely no understanding to understanding you get a much better understanding of it. Yourself of, like, the ins and outs.

Well, that's, like, what really drew me into your software videos because I was like, oh, he's trying to help people out and not. I mean, like, obviously you are advancing your, you know, personal brand or whatever. But, like, for the most part, it's about, like, making something that's fun and helping people out. Yeah. And I think, like, to this question, like, you know, content creation, um, benefiting your career. Like, I think most people would read that and think like, oh, I should write like medium posts like everyone else.

Yeah. And that's actually not where the gains come from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. I don't, I never even thought about my tech videos as benefiting my tech career because I wasn't like, it really was just coming from a point of like, I want to make some YouTube videos. I want to like cut my teeth in like this process. And also here's some information that I just like,

have. Yeah. Here's stuff I know about. Yeah. Yeah. Here it is here it is to you. And also I think that when I see people struggling with stuff that I I've struggled with or I think like I've thought of like I've gone through and realized like it wasn't as big of a deal as I thought. Then I'm like, oh my God, let me save you some anxiety. Yeah, yeah. I'm so pro like accessible role models and that's why I like very much dig these channels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's awesome. All right. So I want to talk about a couple more things. One thing I want to talk about is your podcast that you started in your teenager. Oh, yeah.

That's a thing. I haven't listened to that. Is that still online somewhere? Kind of. I've put snippets in videos. I saw those. But, yeah, other than that, not so much. Okay.

Because that's like OG podcasting. Yeah, that was like 2006, 2007. My co-host of that podcast, we are actually starting a new podcast. That's so good. And our first episode is a little bit talking about, like, how like like has clips from from that podcast in it. Um, yeah. I, I got into podcast from the same thing that I got into like software from. And whenever I get into something, I'm like, oh, I want to do that. That's usually what it is. And so it's like, whenever I find something

that's like super cool, I'm like, oh, I like that, I like that. I want to do that. Anything I've ever learned well has been because I want to make the thing. Yeah. Anything I've learned poorly has been like, because like, you need to learn this. Never. Yeah. I'm finding that so much now where I'm wanting to learn about so many things that I should have learned in high school or whatever about history or something, where I'm like, oh, it just like wasn't the right medium or I like wasn't super jazzed. I almost feel like my brain has changed and like how I want to absorb information. But maybe it's just that like the stakes of everything have changed and I'm less stressed out about getting the grade and more interested in just like learning things. Yes, learning for fun. Also not having to learn seven things at once, seven different topics, which just seems like broken as well. That's, yeah, that's a good point. But yeah, how old are you now?

26. 26. 20s, yeah. So 27-year-old could crush high school. Yeah, no. Let me put me back in, coach. Also, like, you do comedy stuff too. So someone asks, Octopus Blues asks, what lessons did improv teach you and what would you recommend, would you recommend other people do it?

I recommend taking one improv class to everybody. Improv taught me a lot about, like, team dynamics. I, you know, performed with a team in San Francisco for about a year doing, like, a weekly show or biweekly or whatever. And just like the relationships that you build and, like, the improv is all about not being the star of the show and about, like, about, like, setting up your teammates for slam dunks. And that is a lot, I took a lot from that with management, where it's like, how do I make sure that my team is able to, like, how do I sort of set them up so that they look really awesome?

And there's, like, a lot of satisfaction in that, like getting somebody a promotion or whatever. It feels a lot like, you know, calling back to somebody's joke from, like, the first beat or whatever and allowing them to, like, knock it down. and improv helps you a lot with like getting out of your your comfort zone and feeling feeling accepted knowing that what you're afraid of typically is not rational even though like you feel it so it's like very real but when you when you put it out there you realize that people are accepting like improv's a very accepting place where you can just like be like I don't know if this is going to land but I'm just going to say it and people are they don't

ridicule you for it. So it's a very safe environment to just feel more comfortable. Yeah. There's like a lot I think that can be can be learned from improv. I think it gets thrown under the bus in many ways as like kind of cheeseball. It's great punchline. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like no your point's great. Like just take one. There's no downside to taking one class. Yeah. And there's even place where you can do like a drop in class like for you know a Saturday afternoon in games in San Francisco does that. It's like 15 bucks. three-hour class, get and get out, meet a bunch of new people. It's cool. Yeah.

Cool. All right. So my last question is predictions. What is the predictions of both like YouTube creators and then content creation in general in the next handful of years? Ooh. Interesting. So wait, prediction of like where the like.

Where is the industry going? Like what things are going to get traction? Obviously you can't know. Yeah. No, no, no, no. I think that TikTok is going to produce some people, some more traditional, quote unquote, traditional creators. I think there are people who are doing really interesting stuff on that platform, but there's a lot of noise, or I feel mean even calling a noise, but there's a lot of what people make fun of TikTok for also there.

Yeah. So I think that that will be the next thing where people are like, oh, So, you know, YouTuber is kind of a word that is used to describe like Logan Pauls of the world, where it's like kind of has a negative connotation. And I hope that that will change in the future. I hope that YouTube becomes a more supportive place for creators of all kinds, where they're not like constantly fighting against monetization and stability. Because it's a very, as it stands today, it can be a very unstable thing for a lot of people and oftentimes not even related to the algorithmic changes, but more like how the

loop between like advertisers and YouTube and stuff. Yeah. And stuff work. I think, I hope that there's just a like traditional media in a lot of ways to me feels like it has, it is the way it is because of gatekeepers. Like it's kind of whenever there's like an incumbent and then somebody. new coming in, there's all this, like, there's all this energy towards keeping the incumbent in power. And that's what I feel with, that's kind of how I feel about, about YouTube and traditional media. Like, it's interesting to me that, like, Liza Koshi is doing, you know,

doubled air on Nickelodeon because it's like, Liza Koshi has, like, the biggest audience and could be reaching the most people. But now, no, here's the thing, though, from a personal standpoint, like, I totally get, like, wanting to be challenged and wanting to try new things. And, like, there's, like, so I, like, I'm actually happy for her and, like, whatever she wants to do in her career. But when people value, when people have, like, a hierarchy of, like, oh, this is just better than this. Yeah. That's like TV was in that situation with movies. Or, like, TV and movies were in that exact same situation.

So this always. Yeah, and then it flipped. And so, like, this always seems to be. happening, like repeating itself. So I hope that there's less of that and more people jumping. You see like a lot of traditional media people going on YouTube. I hope to see more of that. I know that in a respectful way to the platform, because I know that people are like, you know, like Will Smith or whatever. But I think that Will Smith is like an interesting YouTube like entity. I think it's hilarious.

Yeah, I think I want more people who are like investing in their own sort of thing rather than just straight up television. Totally. Being the being like dominating on on YouTube. Like investing in the platform itself, I think is a valuable thing for all creators. I could be wrong about that. But blurring those lines, making sure that there's still avenues. for up and coming people is something that I want to see. I want to see something done about people who have an unlimited amount of resources to pump into YouTube.

It seems like you could just buy success on YouTube if you're a company that wants to just copy something that has some sort of popularity and then you just like take all the soul out of it. Yes and no. Because then you get like the problem of finding the right host. And like there's something about like you talk about your tech videos too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The through line is you. And the same thing with like Marquez. Like the through line is him.

It's like he could go review like paper clips and people are into it. Right, right. No, that's totally true. And I think that that is a great like YouTube. Well, I think that's a thing across the internet. But like that's a great thing that YouTube does have. But when I look at content farms is more where I feel less good about it. like these videos where like CGP Gray or somebody will make a video that's an interesting essay

on a topic and then some channel will like remake that video but worse but just to like capitalize on like all of it but they can do that daily or three times a day and make a bunch of money off of it because they it's a business where they just like pump in it's an investment almost so that's like a bummer it just like adds a bunch of noise to YouTube that is not going to it's not something you can actually prevent but I would uh yeah I don't know I would just like to see less of that is more yeah I would see I would like to see less things that are obviously content farms like wildly successful and like dominating like YouTube but we'll see yeah I agree all right man thanks for coming in thanks for having me all right thanks for listening so as

always you can find the transcript and the video at blog dot Ycombinator dot com and com and if you have a second, it would be awesome to give us a rating and review wherever you find your podcast. See you next time.