Y Combinator Startup Podcast - #3 - The Technical Advisor for Silicon Valley on HBO - Ed McManus

Episode Date: May 15, 2017

Ed McManus was the technical advisor for season three of Silicon Valley on HBO. He came in to talk about what his experience working on the show. Read the transcript here (http://blog.ycombinator.com/the-technical-advisor-for-silicon-valley-on-hbo-ed-mcmanus).

Hey, this is Craig Cannon, and you're listening to Y Combinators podcast. Our guest today is Ed McManus. Ed was a technical advisor for season three of Silicon Valley on HBO. He came in to talk about what his experience was like working on the show. So we ended up talking about middle out compression, moving Pied Piper to AWS, and how to get into the incredibly niche profession of technical advising. All right, here we go. Okay, so today we have Ed McManus.

He was a technical advisor for Silicon Valley on HBO, season three. So, Ed, what's your background? Okay, so I was a technical co-founder of a Y Combinator startup called Yard Sale, and we launched two products. Both were marketplaces for iPhone. So similar to Craigslist for iPhone, the first product was called Yard Sale, and the second product was FOBO. And we sold the company in 2015, and yeah, that's back. And somehow you became a technical advisor for a comedy show. So, okay, how did that happen?

Yeah, I mean, it was so weird. Like, it just, it felt a lot like luck. So the sort of a story here is, you know, we were cranking hard on our startup for four years, sold it in 2015. And the acquisition, it was kind of mostly just to sort of do right by our investors, return as much as we could. But it was not like, you know, phenomenal outcome for the, company, but all of our investors had sort of like been aware that we were sort of like looking

for our next thing. And it just happened that randomly someone from HBO reached out to Greylock, who is one of our investors, and asked them the question like, hey, we're trying to put together sort of like this team of superstars from the tech world. Who would you go after? And both me and my co-fender were on a list of names that Greylock sent back. Okay. And, yeah, from there, I think it was, you know, just a matter of being available. It was vaguely unemployed. Sort of funny.

Right, right. And, I mean, it was kind of a crazy story because they sent us an email, and I've been a huge fan of the show for a really long time. And as soon as we got that, it just, like, was apparent to me this is a, a, a, a, you know, a drop everything and make this happen kind of opportunity. So they flew us in for an interview. It was kind of weird because it actually wasn't really an interview. It was just like our first day at work. Really?

But we didn't know this, right? So you and your co-founder were there. So we actually went on separate days, but we both had a similar kind of experience. I flew in and grabbed lunch with one of the other technical advisors from the show. and he's like, okay, you're all set for your interview. So he drove me over to the studio lot, dropped me off, and I showed up at the Silicon Valley office, and I told them like, hey, I'm here for the interview,

and no one knew what I was talking about. So I told them who I was, and they're like, oh, okay, I think we know where you're supposed to go. And so they lead me into the writer's room, and everyone's in there. So the whole writing team. So the production is on. Yeah, exactly. writing is on.

Right. I see Mike Judge in the corner and it's just this like weird, surreal kind of like, I know who you are. You have no idea who I am. Like, you know, anytime you encounter someone that you consider to be a celebrity. And it turns out that it was just like no one had told them either that I was showing up to interview. So it was just like they just gave me a seat and I listened for like three and four hours, three or four hours and just like gave input wherever I could. Okay.

And, you know, it turned out that most of the job is actually just sort of, like, sitting and listening. And it's very rare that you actually have to speak up and sort of, like, help them course correct. But occasionally they would ask a question, sort of like, you know, can you walk us through the fundraising process, given, like, the companies at, like, a seed stage. Yeah. And, you know, I'd provide some color there around that. And so your first day ends and, like, you just leave? You just go home? So I just walk out.

Yeah, I flew back up to San Francisco. go. I got a call that night and they said like, hey, it went great. Like, we'd like for you to join. And they wanted me to start that Monday. This is on a Friday that I interviewed. So I had one weekend to sell everything. So I just like had a sidewalk sale. It got one of my friends to help me out. And like sold about 80% of the stuff that I owned just to like really commit to this and drove down to Los Angeles on Sunday. night, I got in at like three in the morning or something on Monday and had to show up at nine o'clock the next morning for like my first full day of work. Okay.

So like just drop us into the context. What's happening in the show at the beginning of season three? Yeah. So at this point, I think like the first maybe two episodes had been written. It was still very early in the development of the season. But they had outlines maybe for like the first five or so episodes. And then beyond that, it was kind of like no one really knew where they were the, where they were the season was going to go. Okay. So, yeah, when I showed up, I mean, it was like, I was just

trying to find my footing. Like, it's, it's just very, like, to be honest, it was hard. It was really hard because I've never done anything in entertainment. I've never worked with people like this before. Everyone there was just, like, off the charts, brilliant. Hmm. Were they technical at all? So almost everyone in the room had a very solid understanding of how startups work. not technical though in the sense that like they couldn't you know write code but one of the things I was surprised by was how well the writers sort of understood Silicon Valley and just the material they were covering I mean sort of like a common theme of my time on the show was actually that like I didn't have to do a whole lot of

correction like they kind of got it so before every season they actually come up to to San Francisco for I think a week or two weeks and meet with a bunch of startups. So every writer goes through this kind of like crash course to get up to speed. So by the time they actually start working on the season, they have

like a pretty good understanding of sort of how things work and what life in startups is actually like. And so then given that, where do you find yourself providing value every day at the show? Yeah. So for the most part it was, you know, like I said, it was kind of, the job was explained to me like it's almost like being a lifeguard, right? So like you kind of sit on the sidelines for a bit.

When you see something going wrong, that's when you actually say something. So, you know, I was on hand to answer any questions and that kind of stuff. But at the same time, I wanted to recognize that I'm not like a comedy person. Like that is, like, that could not be further from my skill set. I tried to kind of like not like pitch jokes or do anything like that. Like I just recognize that that's not, you know, that's not what I'm good at. So instead I was thinking through sort of like the technical details, sort of like the strategy, like even where the company was at that point in time, like what are the kinds of things that

they're going to try and do. And so were there points where you felt that like they were going off course and you had to correct it? Yeah, I mean there definitely were times where that would happen. But, like, nothing major, right? Like, I don't think, there were no, there were no, like, huge course corrections as a result of my input. There were definitely some, some, you know, like, tweaks here and there. But for the most part, if the writers wanted to do something, we could find sort of a technical explanation to justify them doing that, right?

And, like, I mean, that's kind of true. Like, I feel like that's not super surprising. Right? Like, these guys are, you know, fantastic programmers. Supposedly they can do whatever they want. Like, we can find a justification for almost any kind of like story point. So the way it would work is they would come up with these scripts. And we would, sorry, the first step of the process was to sort of come up with these outlines.

And from there, like they'd hand it off to a single writer who'd go off and turn it into an actual script. And they would more or less just leave blank spots. Oh, okay. Yeah. And so the bulk of my job at first was just kind of like filling in the blanks. Okay. Yeah. It was just, yeah. And it's, like, I thought that that was going to be easy, but it's actually, it's fairly, it's not super easy. Because like, you have to come up with a dialogue that it's like, okay, you have two lines to explain sort of the technical details of what's going on here. You can't get into the technical details. So you have to keep it like very like like fairly vague, right? And that was that was tough. I mean, you can't get into the details because folks are essentially like they're not going to

understand or you don't have enough like words to fit in or like? I mean, it's a combination of both, right? Even if we could dedicate 30 minutes to like just a technical. Talking about compression. No one would watch it. That's not why people like are interested in the show. So, you know, like the tech is there to serve the story. It's like, um, I think that's the right way to do it. Like the technical details, like another five years are not going to be super important. Like the stuff that people are going to relate to,

it's like the characters, it's sort of like their own motivations, like the emotions, that kind of stuff. And so what examples did you fill in for? Like what gaps did you have to fill? I mean, any time, like one of the characters says anything technical, that was something that either I wrote or of, So, for example, if it was something relating to compression, sometimes, like, if it were something that were really specific to an expertise, like, I'm not a compression guy, but we have folks who are working with the show who are.

So in that case, we would send that out to them, get their feedback, and then sort of, like, try and bring everything together to make it work for the scene. Okay, and so then, like, going back then, can you talk a little bit about the entire premise of Pied Piper? Like, is that possible? Is the comprehensive? impression algorithm they tried to do at the end of season one a thing? Like, what's the deal with that? Surprisingly, yes. Okay. So when I, okay, so there's a couple of pieces here. But like, one is that when I first showed up, I was like, this technology is too good, right?

Like, if this were a real thing, Pipeper would never fail. Like, there's no chance, right? Like, they could not fail. And so the challenge is, like, how do you, like, make them fail? Like, at the end of every episode. And so, like, you know, every episode arc is kind of like, things look great. It's kind of like the, we actually, it's almost like the anti-entourage, right? Like that's like how some of them were thinking about the show.

Where like entourage is things like start off horrible and then by the end of the episode they're fantastic. Right. Silicon Valley is the opposite. Yeah. Silicon Valley is like things seem like they're going so great like everyone's like on track to being a billionaire. And by the end of the episode like never. This guy is falling. So the challenge was to take this technology that's like, like can't lose and like turn it into something that like you know like they keep stumbling over. So that was really tricky.

And then what was the, oh, the algorithm at the end of season one. Yeah. The surprising thing with middle out is that like there is actually technical background for it. And like it is actually the result of a lot of sort of machine. learning developments applied to compression. So the theory behind the tech is actually, like, it's plausible. Like, this is a piece of software that could exist. Most likely it would not have the same kind of characteristics that Minnell Out does in the show.

It's great for streaming. It's lossless. It has, like, all these performance characteristics, which are, like, very difficult to achieve in the real world. So like if this thing existed in the real world, it'd be like no question an absolute breakthrough. But wait, why wouldn't it exist? What are the issues there? It just because, well, it would just be a scientific breakthrough for something like middle out to exist. Okay, gotcha. That's what it comes down to.

Okay, gotcha. So one of the things that I was wondering is like, oftentimes we find, at least around YC, that, you know, like Google or Hulie isn't going to immediately replicate whatever you're working on. Do you ever bring that up that like the startup versus giant company thing is like maybe not the most common thing to happen in Silicon Valley? But it does happen, right? And I think it happened more in the past. So a lot of the knowledge of the team is drawing on is actually kind of from the dot-com boom.

So like in the 90s. So imagine Huli's actually Microsoft, right? Microsoft was like this significant threat. If Microsoft said they were coming after your market, like watch out. Right. So maybe a better comparison. and today would be like Facebook, right? Google, like, we all kind of, like, have, like, all of my experiences with Google being sort of the dominant company.

And those guys are, like, just so nice. Like, that's something that's new, right? Like, that didn't used to be the case. No. So now I think it's kind of, like, plausible that we can say, like, oh, well, the big company is not going to go after, you know, like this small startup. But, like, I think that's a new thing. And maybe not going to be the case for much longer. Like, you know, like Facebook, for example, is getting a little bit more.

aggressive going after smaller spaces. And so, yeah, I think that that is like a legitimate concern. Okay, fair enough. I mean, it sets up the story really well. And yeah, if nothing else. And it's good for, yeah, it's good for driving the story forward. Okay. Were there any things left on the cutting room floor that you were really excited about

that just got pulled from the show? So, yeah, actually there were, I think like one or two episodes at the end of the season. So, like, episode, I think like, I want to see episode nine or something, where the plan was actually to go to FMRL. So Ephemiral is kind of like Burning Man in the Delta here in Northern California. Yeah, I was on a boat that sank there. That's awesome. And like it sounded like it was going to be incredible. And that actually got cut more for production reasons than for, you know, for like technical reasons.

But that left the show with this hole in the season. And so there was like this mad dash at the end of the sort of writing, writing period to fill it in with like two or three new episodes, which is like incredibly difficult. So what episodes were those? So. Was that like the luau thing? Yeah, it starts there. I think the, the luau is maybe like episode seven or something. but it was all around the beta launch.

And so, like, what we were left with is this, like, this hole of a couple of episodes at the end of this season. And, like, the challenge is, like, okay, so, like, we're kind of screwed here, right? Like, like, what can we do? And, like, I feel like if I pointed to any episodes that I sort of, like, added the most to, it would be those three. Okay. They ended up pulling directly from our experience with yard sale.

launching a beta and sort of like not being totally sure at first, like whether this thing is working or not. And getting a really strong like positive signal early. And then, you know, like four or six months in, you're looking at the numbers and you're thinking like maybe this thing's not not as strong as we thought. Yeah. And were you guys, so if I remember correctly, that's also when the numbers are being faked, right? So that, yeah, that happened a little bit more towards the end. That's like things were getting so dire. You know, they were about to run out of money.

that, like, they go off and start faking some numbers. Oh, okay, okay. That originally was going to be sort of a plot around growth hacking, and then it, like, just, like, edged its way into fraud. But there was, like, this whole fascination around growth hacking and buying users and that kind of stuff. And, of course, like, you know, take yourself back to five years ago in the startup world, four or five years ago, like, growth hacking was, like, this new hot thing.

it seemed like a legitimate way to sort of like get your product to product market fit. So it was like super alluring and then it kind of like entered this kind of like this gray hat world and just got gradually worse and worse. So great. Yeah. And so the show ended up being kind of like reflection of like sort of like where that was where that was going. Because I mean like yeah, there is definitely legitimate and sort of like bad like growth hacking, right? And then were there moments, like, you know, when you think about, like, growth hacking in the industry or whatever, they're often, like, prominent figures, were you ever asked to, like, put someone on the spot and it, like, felt, like, too on the nose, like, making fun of them directly? Or is that just kind of, like, all fair? Yeah, we have a reference to Theranos in the show. But that was kind of, like, you know, it was so, it was, like, very common knowledge at that point. I think that, like, we, the show would not go after anyone. unless it were sort of like already kind of like a big story.

Yeah. A lot of what the writers end up using is, you know, stuff that gets pulled from the headlines. Really, it's, you know, like real stories that they just sort of like reshape to kind of fit the situation that the pipe pipe guys are in. Because that's what I always wondered, right? Like it always feels like, not to say that it's like basic, but it is like popular culture, Silicon Valley, right? And so were there moments where you were trying to push it to be like more like ephemeral Isle is actually a really good example. But were there other like more like fringe things people were trying to put in that folks would be like, I don't know about this and then take it out. If anything, I wanted more of that stuff in the show.

So like one of the, I remember watching like season one and season two and thinking like why are these guys building, you know, like their own servers? This doesn't make sense. No one in the startup world does this. Right. And it felt really inauthentic to me. And so, like, you know, season three comes around. I'm, like, finally in the position to do something about this. And so, like, one of the things that, like, I was, you know, like, I was like, I was like,

I was like, we have to get the guys to move to AWS. Okay. At the very least, right? Like, I think that, like, if we could have gotten them to Heroku, that would have been even better. That's great. But, but there was, like, like, the audience for Silicon Valley is interesting, right? Because it's not all startup people, but there are a lot of technical people who are sort of, like,

really, like, like, into it. and so like a lot of the technical folks who watch they're not they're like maybe sort of like not on like the you know like the bleeding edge of kind of like trends that are like you know catching on in the startup world for startups like if you're not building on AWS like you're really behind it doesn't make sense yeah um you know in and so watching the show is someone who had like actually done a startup like that was something that didn't sit well with me. So, like, uh, uh, yeah,

got them to, uh, to, to, to, to, to, to,

to, uh, and like, we expected a lot of, uh, pushback from, like, developers watching the show saying,

like, oh, like, you know, you should, like, they would never move to AWS. Like,

they want control over their own servers, like, whatever, uh, the, uh, that, uh,

it, it was fine. I think, like, no one, no one really complains. So, like,

the timing ended up being good. That's so cool. So what about like all those other elements where like the show touches the real world, right? So like, you know, we talked before we were starting the interview about you doing like things that were like off on screen elements that weren't writing. Like when do those things come into play? And like where did what did you work on in particular? Yeah. I mean, so if you watch any episode, just pay attention to the stuff in the background because like the show is designed to be possible. You can freeze frame anything and look at the documents, for example, in their hands, or like the whiteboards in the background.

All of that stuff is like me and or like, you know, some of the other consultants working on that. Just like writing on Post-it notes and yeah. Yeah, right, exactly. Like the scrum board is a good example of that. Like every post-it has something that, you know, like we had to like sit down and spend time thinking about. And yeah, I mean, like I both love and hate. the process of making those whiteboards. There were times where walking the cast through sort of like,

there's one scene in particular during the feedback, the user feedback session where Richard gets up and starts drawing some stuff on a whiteboard. So like I had to sort of walk him through each of those pieces of like, okay, this is what this, you know, this graphic here means and like that kind of stuff. And that was awesome. There was another time where we had some code displayed

on a projector. And like I got to walk mic through like what this code actually did. I think in the second episode we hid an Easter egg in some C code that we like had just sort of like flash on screen for like a second. Okay. And people are pausing it. Yeah, exactly. Pausing it, copying it over and actually compiling it. And it was kind of cool.

I wrote like a really simple compression algorithm. Okay. Like, it's hard to even call it a compression algorithm, but, like, took this character string, and you could decompress it, expand it into a larger string, which just got printed to the console. Okay. I can't remember what message we settled on, but... But someone ran it. Yeah, yeah.

It ended up being a big post on Reddit. That's amazing. It was just, like, those attention, that attention to detail. Was that code online anywhere? Like, were you guys on GitHub doing all that stuff? So, yeah, so it's online now. it wasn't originally. Okay.

And so the show has not done a ton of like crossover into the real world. Last season we had this character Winnie. And I actually, I created a GitHub profile for playback purposes, right? So just like we wanted an authentic looking

GitHub profile. The best way to do that is just to make a GitHub profile for that person. So I made one for Winnie. And we had to populate it both with a fake commit history and also with like projects that she would have pushed to. So set all this up, got the screenshots

and the playback finished. Then I forgot to delete the account. And so as soon as it aired, people were, you know, like searching on GitHub for this character's username. And so she showed up. And so it ended up going viral on Reddit. And I was just like instantly flooded with poor requests. And like it was a really kind of awesome

experience. And it was like one of the first times that the show like really crossed into the real world in like an authentic way because it was accidental. Yeah. But it was it was very cool to see. Were there ever any moments where you were actually thinking about like building some kind of software thing that would like overlap or was that just never never crossing the mind of the show?

Yeah. There's there's one idea in particular. I was working on an audio project at the time and realized that like we could. pretty easily sort of encode, like, text in an audio file. And so one of the pitches in the writer's room was actually to have a character who would sort of, like, play a little clip of audio for, like, you know, some fantasy app that he was working on. And anyone with the corresponding app could actually sort of decode the audio. And it would be, like, you know, a secret message that we could send out, yeah, exactly, a little Easter egg that we could send out to all of the viewers. That's amazing.

And then what about the people being introduced in the show, the other characters? Like, do you, as startup guy for the show, like, are you trying to, like, pull out those characters to throw them in? Or do they never even ask you for that kind of thing? All of that, like, very little of that comes out of, like, a technical need. Yeah. So it's almost exclusively just for, you know, story purposes of, like, moving things forward. and so, you know, there's an opportunity to provide some input and say, like, well, this is what that person might work on. Yeah.

And that would be a good example of, like, a blank left in the scripts, right? So, like, someone's title. And so, like, even the small things like that, which are not necessarily, like, it's not code, right? Like, it's not, like, related to programming. But it is a technical detail. And so, like, you can give them a title, for example, that's kind of, like, tailored to the startup world. Okay. And so that was, you know, like, that's a good example of the kind of thing that.

Right. Okay. But you don't have to, like, predict the future and, like, bring people in. And, okay, that makes sense. So I know this is, like, a very obscure kind of job. But if someone who is in the startup world wanted to get into it, how would they get into it? And then how do they get good at it? It's, yeah, it's a tough one to answer, right?

Because, like, this isn't a real job. Like, this doesn't exist in the way that, like, you can't. apply to be like a technical consultant really like you kind of like you luck into it a little bit and um uh there are i guess i can think of three different routes like to sort of like get into a position like this um the first two are like not very reliable the first uh is just like you kind of be someone in my position um uh who just like worked really hard at startups right um and like i never thought that this would lead to sort of like something in entertainment

like in the entertainment world but you know it did the second is to be an expert in like some specific field which like also like at no point will you be doing that so that you can get you know like to work on a show. The third I think is kind of like the best route and that's to work

at like an agency or some kind of organization that also works with production companies And the guy who brought me on board, Jonathan Doughton, who is sort of like the main consultant for the first two seasons, that was kind of his path in. And for that, you know, like, you kind of just be on the lookout for promising scripts and then try and jump on them when you can. And the benefit of that is that you get in early. And, you know, you can stick with the show for a long time. Are you dabbling with other shows at this point?

No, no. No, I mean, it was like a real big, I had a hard time figuring out whether or not this is something I wanted to continue doing. Because on the one hand, it was an incredible experience. On the other, I know that my sort of like position is up here in San Francisco, like working on startups. It's doing actual startup stuff. Not sort of like the pretend. Yeah, exactly. And so after this last season, I'm, I'm.

I just felt like I needed to come back. Yeah, I don't know. Like, it was definitely, I was kind of 50-50 on it for a while, but just felt like, you know, like I had given them all my stories. Like, if I went back for another season, it would be like, I don't know what to tell you at this point. You haven't worked on a video chat app? Right, right.

Yeah. So who do you think is doing this particularly well? Like what other shows are like really technical and in an interesting way that's like somewhat possible. Right. There's a couple of shows. So there's two shows I'm watching right now that I'm like obsessed with. Yeah. One is Mr. Robot.

And even when I was on Silicon Valley, I kind of said like this is the gold standard for both playback and technical accuracy. They really nailed it. So like, you know, the technical details are sound. Sort of like the technical story actually plays a pretty big role in the show as a whole. and yeah everything about it feels it feels good the second show I'm watching is Halt and Catch Fire

which I actually just started watching like a month ago and it's fantastic it's like it's so good and the thing is that like it takes place in the early 80s so you know the tech that they're talking about it's not something I'm familiar with and I imagine that like there's like only a couple dozen people

in the world who like really will pay attention and are watching the show at the same time. Right, right. So, you know, maybe, like, in some sense, it's almost like an easier job. But, yeah, those two shows in particular, I think, are really great. Every new show that comes out on the scene, though,

has a really high bar. Yeah. So, you know, I don't know if Silicon Valley is just kind of, like, leading the way here, but it seems to be, like, a real strong trend that especially as like production budgets go up. Another big big thing is that like season orders are going down, right? So like now instead of like producing 20 episodes a season, they're only doing 10,

which just means that the quality of every episode is so high that they can, you know, afford to take the time to reach out to the consultants they need to like really get the details right. Yeah, I'm curious to see if like, you know, given Amazon and Netflix spending so like billions of dollars on new programming. if they're just going to throw a ton of technical people into, like, even the science fiction shows, like, because it seems like it's a tremendous value ad. And there's so many nerds to, like, want to do this.

Has it, like, gotten you excited about working in comedy or anything or doing comedy? So I felt like a part of my brain was getting exercise that, like, had just, you know, been dormant for, like, the six years of, like, doing a startup. So, like, it was great. I don't know if, like, I do not think I have a career of comedy ahead of me. Like, definitely not. But, like, yeah, it was still, you know, just an incredible experience. That's awesome, dude.

Okay, so what's next for you? I don't know. Start up, I think. Like, it ended up being a really cathartic experience working on the show. And the last three episodes of season three were, like, such a bummer. Like, there's one scene where, like, Richard is just lying in the bathtub, and it seems like everything's gone wrong. And like I remember really associating with that

and just thinking like, oh man, like I've been in that, I've been in that place. Yeah. You know? So there was, there were definitely like a year or two years where like after doing my startup like, you know, didn't want to write code again. And this is like one staff in the process for sort of like getting

back into it. And yeah, now I'm, you know, pretty stoked to jump into something again. and feel energized and rested. All right. Well, the last question, then it's like, why is YC not in Silicon Valley?

That's a question that I asked the writers. And I started to realize that, like, it was kind of on their radar, but they didn't really understand the significance of Y Combinator in Silicon Valley. Oh,

like fully. And, like, as soon as I started realizing this, I kind of, like, backed off a little bit because, like, if Y Cominator in Hacker News specifically,

like Hacker News specifically, like Hacker News was a huge surprise. Right. Yeah. Hackernews is like never mentioned. And I brought this up at one point. And realized it was like just barely on their radar, I felt like maybe I shouldn't push this. Maybe it's all right if this is just kind of a secret. Like, you know, if, you know, like, but that was definitely something that, you know, I've thought a lot about.

Hacker News is like the place to go. YC is the place to go if you're doing a startup. So like, yeah. Well, we may have just doubted ourselves. I know. Don't be shocked if that shows up in the next season. Thanks, man. You're great. All right. Thanks for listening. Please remember to subscribe to the show and leave review on iTunes.

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