Y Combinator Startup Podcast - #30 - Artist Lauren McCarthy Will Be Your Home's Brain

Episode Date: August 29, 2017

Lauren McCarthy is an artist and assistant professor at UCLA.Her latest project LAUREN, is a human intelligent smart home. Lauren will visit your home, deploy a series of smart devices, and watch over you remotely 24/7. Learn more here - http://get-lauren.com

Hey, this is Craig Cannon, and you're listening to Y Combinators podcast. Today's episode is with Lauren McCarthy. She's a digital artist and assistant professor at UCLA. I interviewed Lauren to talk to her about a new project, which is called Lauren, and it's basically her as the operating system behind all of your smart home devices. So the way it works is you can sign up at get dash Lauren.com. And for a select group of the people that sign up, Lauren will go to your home, set up the devices, and then monitor it 24-7. So when you're awake, she's awake. When you're sleeping, she's sleeping. And all you have to do is say, hey, Lauren, and she'll do whatever an Amazon Alexa might do,

and possibly more as she tries to anticipate your needs. So if you want to sign up, you can check out get-loren.com. And if you want to read the transcript or watch the video, that's at blog.commodator.com. All right, here we go. So today we have Lauren McCarthy. She is an artist based in L.A. Could you give us a quick background? Sure.

I'm an artist based in LA. I'm a assistant professor here at UCLA Design Media Arts, but my art is basically thinking about what are the systems we use to be a person and interact with other people. And will technology save all of our problems or cause many more? Do you have an answer? Yes. So at the footer of your website on your About page,

you wrote, I make art about what confuses me. Is that still true? Or is your website old? Oh, yeah, no, it's definitely true. The main thing that confuses me is just people, all of them. So I make art about people and about, you know, the sort of expectations we have of each other or the rituals and the patterns and the strange things we do when we're together or alone. Hmm. And so I guess to give people some context, can you just like reference one of your projects that that is about people? Sure, yeah. So maybe to give an example, I did a project called Social Turkers a few years ago, and I was trying to see if I could fix my, my non-existent dating life. So I made this system where I went on a series of blind dates with people that I met on the internet, and then I, um, sort of discreetly streamed the video of the date to the web.

And then I paid people through the service called Amazon Mechanical Turk, small amounts of money to watch the date and try and give me instructions for what to say or do to see if that they might be better at kind of coaching me or directing me through this date. And was that successful for you? Yeah, to some extent. Maybe less successful than I had hoped. but also less successful than I had feared. Yeah, the thing that it did really was make,

I guess one thing I'm always trying to do without getting too philosophical here is understand what are these limits we put on ourselves. And so for me to get these instructions, oh yeah, so they would come as like text messages and I have to do them or say them immediately. And so just having to do these things and not being totally in control

felt really uncomfortable at first, but then also started to become really natural. But the thing it made me realize was like I could say or do things that I felt like, oh, that's not me, or that's totally weird of me to do. And then like the date would not act like it was such a strange thing to say or do. And so like the sky didn't fall. And so I realized what a narrow box I normally hold my idea of myself in.

And so what that project was really successful in doing was, just getting me to like kind of loosen up my identity I guess in some way. They had no idea that this was going on while you were doing it? They didn't. And that was part, you know, I didn't, I started out with these where I would tell them at the beginning of the date. Because that, you know, it wasn't supposed to be out this secret thing. But the problem was that the whole date would be just talking about the project and about the issues around it and surveillance and arts. which was great, but it didn't feel like a first date then.

It was just them quizzing me about my art practice. And so I switched to, like, telling them at the end or after the fact just to try and get a more, get this feeling that, like, this is this thing we all do. We don't talk about it. Yeah. And so was it just really eye-opening for you to give up control and let other people, like, basically do the date for you in a way that, like, made you more comfortable with other people over time? Or was it just that individual experience that? was just different. Yeah, no, I think it did have some lasting effect

where I sort of felt a looseness that came from that project. Like almost by giving up control, I started to feel more freedom in some way. But the other weird effect was that, like immediately after the project, I'd gotten really used to the system that, like, for the first few dates, I felt really, like, unsure about how to make a decision,

like, you know, like, can I kiss you or like, do you want to come home? Like, or do you want to have a second date? I was just like, ugh, I don't know how to determine those things anymore. Oh my God. Like, have you wanted to jump on the other side and, like, control other people? Yeah, I don't know, less so. I have less of a, maybe my controlling of other people is just by setting up these situations and asking if they'll participate.

I was wondering with like all these projects, you, um, if you're just attracting more people like you to run the date for you. That's the problem. I get all these socially inept people as my, as my turkers. Huh. Maybe. I don't know. It is interesting though with a lot of these projects where there's different roles, I talk to

someone and, um, they immediately are like, oh, I want to be this on this side of it or I want to be on that other side of it or I want to do neither of those things. And for every person, it's like really clear in their head, but different. So crazy. And so was there a moment, like, before all this, like, the art projects got started, the programming got started, that you, you recognized that you were having difficulty interacting with people? Oh, yeah, definitely. And so then, like, throughout your, did you study art and college? Yeah, I studied computer science and art. And I, maybe the, maybe this is the source of all my problems, but I went to MIT where, like, I feel like the one thing I didn't learn was any social skills.

And so I never felt that, like, inadequate in college. It was, like, immediately afterwards where I was like, oh, wow, all these people know how to, like, interact with each other. When was I supposed to get that one? So I was like, well, what can I do? I can, like, kind of hack things, I guess. I can build software. Maybe that would help. But it seems like you're in this interesting place in between, right?

Because you also had your JavaScript thing, which was P5, JS, which is, like, about opening up art and technology as a whole. whole, right? So there are obviously like larger issues you're trying to tackle as well. Or is that just because you found that like you went to MIT so you were given the aptitude to get into programming and like make art and you felt that people couldn't do it? Um, yeah, no, I think it's, uh, so I have this feeling where I don't, I think part of my social anxiety or awkwardness comes from just a feeling of like, I just don't know how to fit into a lot of situations. And So another place where there's a big problem with people fitting in or feeling welcome is in tech in general. And I think that was what really got me interested in working in this P5JOS project.

And not just tech, but open source is even worse in terms of the gender breakdown or minorities that are involved. And so I was just trying to see what would have looked. look like if the number one goal of this project was to build a space where people feel welcome and use that as a starting point, not like, oh, we built this cool tool and then, oh, crap, like, can we get some more, you know, different people in here after the fact? And, yeah, so that's, you know, I like JavaScript and I like building this tool, but that is the core for me. It's like, can we make a space where, like, people just feel comfortable being there even if they don't know yet how to code or they don't know how they fit in or they don't

know the other people. And is that working? Like, what about this particular, like, I mean, it's an entire like framework, right, for building stuff? What about it is attracting those people? I think it's, part of it is the design. So if we have that core value of like we want to support, you know, diversity in different points of view from the good go, part of that goes into design decisions.

about the tool itself, like trying to make the language itself understandable, the functions in the library, putting a really heavy emphasis on documentation. So it's not this barrier where you have to figure it out. It's like someone has actually helped want you to learn. And also actually doing things behind the scenes. So taking some tradeoffs in the code under the hood to make it easier for people that are not, like,

expert developers to still be contributors to that codebase. And so adding a lot more commenting in there and just doing things in slightly less sort of obscure ways. That's really cool. I never thought about that, like just opening up, like, exactly how you comment to make it better for people to jump in and, like, be open source contributors. I always thought about it as much more like end consumer facing, like, I guess, processing. And so has this netted, like, different kinds of projects?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, the user base is so much broader, and we really try to highlight that. So that's the other piece of it, is like, actively doing events or curating homepage sketches or galleries or doing outreach and, like, working with specific groups and being like, well, what does it mean, you know, in your context? What are the useful examples? Or, like, do maybe we need to translate this all to Spanish? and then what are the relevant like examples or concepts there? Do we need to like change the metaphors we're using to teach instead of like assuming that you use the same object that we're talking about? So yeah, the projects are just, they reflect, you know, a wider range of people and like different ideas.

And are they like chiefly art projects or what? Mainly. But I think it's being used in a lot of other contexts to like visualization stuff. it like in news and like blog post kind of things as a showing data or making some point. Yeah, it's, I think, wider than just art. Okay. So one thing that I did want to talk to you about was the Facebook mood manipulator. Are you still actively working on that?

Is that existing in the world still? I, it exists. I don't think it works so well. Facebook kind of changes their underlying infrastructure very regularly. Okay, so then just explain how it worked in the past. Yeah. So it actually, I made it in response to this news in like 2014 or something like that where it was like, oh, Facebook is like did this study about mood manipulation

where they were showing people either positive or more negative content and then showing that this would cause the person themselves to make more positive or negative posts with the conclusion that they can actually influence your mood based on what that. they show you in your feed. And the outcry was all about the procedure and like you didn't get the proper permission. Like I can't believe Facebook is experimenting on us, which is like a whole different conversation. But I was more interested in like this question of like, wait, but they can like control our moods. Like I don't have time to be mad about them experimenting right now. Like, what about this issue? So the Facebook mood manipulator was this Facebook add on you could get that

basically would give you this interface that you could it had a few metrics like positive negative but also like optimistic pessimistic I think or um open or private something like that I forget exactly now the and then how would it actually interact with the interface yeah and so you get to select how much of these things you want to feel in a given day um like when you wake up and then it filters your post accordingly. So it was using this method called linguistic inquiry word count or a Luke L-I-W-C that was actually the same method that the Facebook mood manipulation study used. And it's pretty straightforward. It's basically just looking at the words in a post and trying to

tag them with different qualifiers. You know, this is a positive word or this is the pronoun and then all of these different, you know, end results like openness or hopefulness are based on what percentage of the words are in this category or that category. So you just like added up like an equation. Have you thought about doing a version two, like post-2016 election to see the other side of Facebook? Yeah. I actually think they've, I've seen some things like that, like, to see outside the echo chamber, I wonder, I wonder what it would be, what would be the appropriate out on now, because I think now people are so used to that idea. Like, of course, they're manipulating my mood. Of course. Yeah. You know, they're filtering out certain things or

targeting me. It also seems difficult, given, like, how much, like, app and, like, mobile browser traffic they have right now. I guess, I mean, I don't know how much it's changed since 2014, but I imagine it's gone up, which is super difficult. And so have you done many other extensions? A few. So one that comes to mind is this extension for Google Hangouts. Yeah. I made with Kyle McDonald's.

It was called Us Plus, which is kind of a play on Google Plus. And the idea is that you would install it in your hangout, and it would measure what, it would do speech to text and measure the words that you're saying. and analyze them, and then it would also analyze your facial expression, and it would try to kind of optimize your conversation and then give feedback individually. So, like, I might be, it might notice that I'm, like, being much more negative or pessimistic than my conversation partner, and so it would show me an image, like, stop being such a downer or something like that,

or my favorite feature was if you are talking a lot more than the other person, it would just auto-mute you. You've been auto-muted for talking too much until there was more of a balance. To me it's so surprising that you're the one building these tools when you seem to have a very high EQ for other people. Maybe you don't feel that way, though. Yeah, I'm not sure what the answer is. I feel like I am very sensitive to other people, but then I just like my output, I always feel like lost. I'm like, okay, this person, like I'm supposed to say something reassuring or like, you know, make this situation comfortable right now. I'm like, but what? What do I say?

I think more people have that feeling than you think. Yeah, maybe. Because there was also that like box project you guys made, right? What was that one called? Like the, it would tell someone what to do on their date, like at a certain point in time. Oh, oh, the conversa cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These ones.

Oh. Yeah, is that what you're talking about? I didn't, yeah, it was green. Yeah, it was green in the video. This special version we made for our wedding. Amazing. So they were silver to match the color theme. Yeah, this was a project I did a while ago.

It was called conversing Cuban. It's just like a centerpiece for conversation. And it would kind of sit in the middle of your table and detect, like, who was talking and then try to give you just single one or two word cues of what to do or actually what to say or talk about. Was it parsing the conversation or was it just like throwing random stuff out? Yeah, it was listening to the conversation. and I can't go into the specifics of that one. I mean, a lot of these projects are sort of working with people's kind of desire to buy into things.

Not in a superficial way. It's like you give someone a product and you tell them it does something and they really start to, they kind of want to believe it. So like with the Us Plus project, I was talking to this reporter and we were doing the interview over Us Plus. she was, you know, towards the end, and she's kind of like, well, you know, this is great, but like, is this really working? It just feels sort of random. Like, how smart is this thing?

And I was about to explain how, like, yeah, you know, speech to text is not that great. And the analysis we're using is actually supposed to be for longer bits of task, whatever. But at that moment, it's like, it's like stop being so doubtful or something. And she was like, oh, my God, okay, I'm going to go right the article right now. Thank you. So it's like when you remember these moments where it works for, us and we forget more often the times where it just doesn't work. Are the physical objects more effective or less effective than the like the plug-ins or the

websites? I think they're more effective in the sense that like it's amazing what a physical object can do to just give people like an excuse. And so that was part of the thinking with the Conversa Cube because it was like, you know, people are really just starting to get smartphones and for it to be more widespread. And I was like, what about this thing that we're all curious to be. carrying these objects around. Like, that's interesting.

What does that mean? So, yeah, I think having an object, people are instantly, like, ready to just sort of act differently or, like, put aside some of their normal patterns and see what this thing does in the space. The apps and extensions are nice, though, because it means I don't have to, like, get objects to people. It's, like, anyone can download it, and the reach is so much wider. And what I really like about it is this question of, like,

okay, so you saw the little video trailer and you have... maybe you feel upset or excited or confused, but then you could just click download and do you. And if you do, then, like, how do you use this app and why? Like, you really have the choice. It's not just something you see and, like, muse about. It's, like, a real choice in front of you. Hmm. Because I was wondering, like, how often you get pulled toward, like, commercial interest

with these projects. Because I think, like, we were talking before we started recording about people asking you to, like, make a startup or, or misunderstanding the project as a startup. Do you ever feel like, I mean, the cube is a perfect example, like the desire to do like a giant Kickstarter for something like that? Yeah, sometimes I did this. I also had this like happiness hat that would detect if you're smiling

and then like stab you in the back of the head until you started to smiling again to train your brain. And that one, like people were really like writing me asking to buy them. I guess for me it's just like how I know how much some I've seen friends do kickstaters I know how much time goes into just like figuring out manufacturing and production and everything and that's not where I want to spend my time particularly so I think like the software gets to that point of mass distribution so yeah so one thing that I am curious about is like how people do consume and even buy digital art or digital media in general.

I know that, like, you make, you know, websites and apps and stuff, and not everything's physical, so it's, like, kind of hard to sell. But where do you see that going as far as, like, people consuming and purchasing it? Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think anyone has found the ideal model yet. I know a few artists that have found something that works for them. like they have a specific contract they use for selling a website or transferring ownership of something. But there's not like one universal way of dealing with it

and the way that there is with like selling a painting or something like that or selling a sculpture. And there's also the trickiness of just like, if I sell you a digital file, is there anything wrong with like just making a copy and giving it to someone else? Like is there some difference between the copy of it? file or the original. Or if I sell you

an app and the app no longer works with your current version of your phone, is that still an interesting thing to own? Are you like now the project manager forever? Right, right, right. So people have different ways around this. Sometimes there's contracts for how long you maintain something. But

yeah, so for me, I don't the only context in which I've kind of sold an app before, well usually it's free because I've just interesting people trying it. That's not where I'm trying to make money. But one time I made this app that a lot of people,

it got to the front page of Reddit, and so all these people started downloading it. And I hadn't really built the server for that. Use case I was expecting, like, you know, maybe a thousand people at most. And so I needed people to just, like, stop downloading it with us, so I just, like, added a price. And then, like, a few hours later, I felt like, oh, I feel bad.

Like, I just want this to be free. but in that time I made like a few thousand dollars and I was like oh well that's works yeah did you refund everyone do you keep it no I just I think you know you bought it during that one window and it wasn't free like the bad luck window yeah that's really great that's like the exact inversion of almost every other company yeah it's interesting because I was wondering about like why there aren't more digital artists I know there are like there are obviously a lot of them but like more prolific, more, like, really well-known. And I was wondering if that, like, that issue around selling and buying stuff is actually a part of it.

Because, like, you know, if you're a painter, if you're the rare combination of someone who's a painter, who also has some, like, business savvy and can sell stuff, like, you can survive. Whereas, like, someone like you, you teach at UCLA, which is awesome. But, like, that's not solely your art, right? And, yeah, I'm just curious, like, what, like, innovative models artists are trying to, like, push on right now to try and create that stuff or if you think that like maybe everyone becomes artists and this is just like the side thing for lots of people yeah it's um i think part of the difficulty comes out of just like the market around buying selling art is very conservative because

you are agreeing that this particular object has this value that you know and it's all kind of consensus based so there it's very risk adverse in the first place so anything digital is like first of all, just like new and not necessarily like we've established this as art and it's okay. And then also like how do you own it and how do you keep it? And there's all those questions. But I've seen like different models, you know, there's, you know, things like electric objects where you can, which is a platform for people to distribute images. And they've tried like a number of different subscription or selling models. I was talking with someone at a company recently

where they are trying to use the blockchain as a way to sign, kind of like verify the originality of a digital file. So you might make a copy, but you wouldn't have the bitmarked one or something like that. But I haven't seen any model that really like has worked

or has caught on in any way. So yeah, I don't know what the answer is. I think that there is one. I mean, the thing is, like, I think it used to be like, oh, there's these, like, digital artists, and you're saying, like, they're still not really represented in, like, the art world at large. But also, like, every artist is starting to use technology now.

Like, seeing these, you know, I teach in a program that uses technology, but seeing the grad students in fine arts, like, they're all, like, making gifts and using computers and using, like, 3D software. So I think they're going to have to fix. out something because this is not going back into the box. Totally. Or you have to get really good a painting or something.

So is there, like, what are you really excited about right now? Like, what are you working on? I don't know if excited is the right word, but I've been like really obsessed with just all this home automation stuff and thinking about Alexa and products like that, Google Home. and it's so interesting for me compared to something like Google Glass where people were kind of, there was this huge, like, rejection of it when it came out. Whereas with Alexa, I see, like, oh, my parents have one. Actually, they got, like, two more for Christmas just because they liked it so much.

Or, like, my grandma's got one. Or my friend has one. And it's, like, nobody is having such a needy reaction to it. And I think they are selling it really differently. They kind of, like, don't make it too. smart at first, they roll it out. It's like, oh, it's just like a smart speaker. And they don't talk about like all the really technical things that could be done or they are doing already. And I think that is like coming really soon. It's like first we have to get

people used to like the talking speaker. And then it could be like the talking speaker that controls everything and like knows every detail about you and streams it all to the web, whatever. But so and for me it's just like so provocative that it's in the home. to think of like the home is the place where you are first you first learn how to be a person and like talk to people you understand you learn what your culture and your values are and what you know your history is and a lot of that is shaped by like your interactions with your environment and so then if you've got this device or this home system that is answering your questions um or talking to you in a certain way or shaping your interactions like how does that change and like this is a

pretty small group of developers that are designing these things with very, you know, sort of limited set of experiences or views. How do you account for like the huge range of people that might be using this? So that's what I've been thinking about. And then the project that I'm working on is I'm trying to become like Amazon Alexa. So what I'm making a service, it's called Lauren. And so the idea is that I will come into your home and set up all these devices and cameras and then I'll watch you and control your home for you and try to be like better than Alexis. You know, try to anticipate your needs, try to care more.

Try to, you know, imagine what would this relationship with your home, smart home be like if it was like really taken to its full of potential? Wow. So now like you're exactly on the opposite end of the dating app, right? Yeah, yeah, I guess so then this is, you were asking earlier about whether I ever control people. So I guess, or if I'm ever on the controlling end. So I guess in this case, it's your van. Yeah, no, I feel like all of your projects have like basically trained people to deal with computers as like empathetic things because they think, at least, that there's someone behind it operating it.

And now you're like, we've reached an AI and now you're leapfrogging it again to like become the human behind it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so another piece of this is thinking about these services like TaskRabit or Uber or Mechanical Turk where you've got some human on some side of it. And depending on the service, there's a different amount of like humanness to this person that's working for you. Like Amazon Mechanical Turk, they're just like an ID number basically. and I've seen these like really interesting ads I don't know interesting but ads for like TaskRabbit where it's like lifestyle photography

like woman in her home drinking cup of tea and it's like life post chores taskRabbit and I'm like oh wait but like the chores are still happening like it's just like there's a person that you don't see that's doing them and then this one wait not like we eliminated them with technology So it's kind of, you know, that's another angle on this project is like, what is the human behind the scenes and like, I don't know, are they enjoying this? Is this, are you completely at the service of this other person that tries to imagine you're not there? Or is it actually like this relationship in this case where like I might have some connection with them? Or is there any place for a human to still be better than artificial intelligence? Or is like, you know, Alexa can be able to do this really soon and I'm actually not as good.

Well, I think that that's the bet, right? Like the low-level tasks or the repetitive tasks get automated out and the hopefully like creative, like high-level knowledge work tasks are remaining, but I have no idea. Yeah, I mean, I think the things that that's how we like, we like to think that like the things that get automated are the easy things and the things that don't are the ones that require more education or training or higher level skills, but actually I think it divides more like the more human sort of emotional labor is this stuff that just can't get automated. It doesn't have to be high end. It could just be like a person that greets you at the door. It's like it's harder to

replace that with a robot than driving a car, which is a more complicated skill. So when you have all the cameras set up around someone's house and you're like observing them, do you ever feel that like you're going to just develop this incredible amount of empathy and become really attached to them and then have difficulty when they like turn off the Lauren device. Yeah, and then I'm just out. Yeah, I do

kind of wonder. I think actually what I'm trying to do with all these projects is just I realize like bootstrap myself into a place where I get to have this like connection with someone. And part of that is because I just feel so bad at doing that like over like, you know, I'm with my friend of the coffee shop

and he just strikes up a conversation with the woman behind the counter and I'm like, I don't know how to do that, but I'm going to build this huge elaborate system, and then maybe through that, while I'm watching them, brush their teeth and, like, helping them, we'll have some, you know, human moments together. Yeah, so, yeah, maybe a little bit of that. The plan is that if you sign up for the service, there's sort of a consultation, and we talk for a moment beforehand, and just so it's not, like, totally random person, they

don't necessarily know me well, but they have some sense of who, this person is. And we kind of talk about like what would your, you know, what do you want Lauren to do for you? And then try to enact some of that through when it actually happens. Okay. And so the deal is that your physical body is not going to like enter the house. Like you're never going to do like a chore for them. None of that. But like you can engage like an API with other services. Yeah. So I'm building the system where like I'll be able to turn on it and off any electronic device. I can like see who's at their door, unlock it or not depending. like turn on there, shower or not, or turn it off.

And they can also talk to me like, you know, Lauren, what's the weather today? And I respond. But I have this like, how many hours are you going to clock with them? Well, so I think it will be, ideally it would be like a year or something. But I think it will be like three days or something because what happens with a lot of these performances is that people kind of sign up and they don't know what to expect. And then usually it's very interesting and kind of intense. tense, but I don't want it to be like too much that, you know, it's like you want to go to a movie and have some

different experience, but you don't want it to be like so much that you can barely deal with it. So I'll limit it to it like some shorter number of days where like they get a taste of this feeling. Okay. And then you're like on the clock for like a few hours or something? Well, for the whole time during that like three days or so. But like I can sleep when they're sleeping and I'll build a system that tells me like wakes me up when they're moving. Yeah. So what about that?

Because that was, wasn't it the electric object? Project where you were like on people's Facebook pages. So yeah, well, explain that one. So the idea there was a little bit convoluted, but they, so electric objects made this, they had this idea like anyone should be able to support art. And so they made this Kickstarter that was like $5. And you basically, your $5 goes to commission for artists to make a piece of art. And the only requirement for the artist was that they had to incorporate the people that

had supported them in some way. And so you could ask them for a question or give me your photograph or whatever. So I asked them for all their social media handles that they wanted to give. And then for all, there are like a thousand backers total. I spent five minutes looking through all their social media. And so I set up this just more just like cue them up and like show me, open all their tabs. And I would start scrolling. And so this would, you could see it, watch it online.

go and see exactly what I was looking at. And then also in the corner, like a little box that was like a camera on me of me, like, you know, reacting to their stuff. Yeah, it's like a screen chair thing. Yeah. Yeah. So it lasted for a week. I did like eight hours a day or something and then got through all 1,000 people.

Just like. And did you give them any feedback or was it just you as observer? I liked things sometimes. I didn't want to get like. I only had five minutes, so I didn't, like, comment or anything like that. But, yeah, it was mostly just me observing. But it was also real-time, and I was going alphabetically. So you could kind of, there were actually a couple of people that happened to watch while I was, like, browsing them.

And that was kind of cool. Well, because I just wonder, like, if in a similar vein you start creeping people out, like, knowing that they're being watched by you? Yeah. I think that will be a weird part of it. And then the question is like, well, does this feel more invasive than like, you know, Google drop cam or less? Or if you know that like it's a human, but like your camera's not going anywhere. You know, I'm the only one that will see it versus it going into some archive somewhere potentially. Are you going to like log like advertising terms and try and sell them stuff?

That's a good idea. I hadn't thought about that. You know what you need right now. You have to go like full circle. Yeah, exactly. You want me to order you some of that? Okay, so I actually heard about you like three or four or five years ago when I was running this thing called Comedy Hack Day, which was basically just building apps that were funny and then demoing them on stage. So it was just a hackathon with like funny projects.

And I came across all your stuff all the time because people just send it to me. And what I always wondered before I met you was like how in on the joke you were. Like if you're like, does this girl know this is funny? People are laughing. Yeah. Like if you're just this person who's like giving a talk about her project and like you keep getting like applause breaks and you like don't realize it. Like I'm just trying to like learn how to interact with people and then everyone laughs and then you like keep presenting. Yeah.

And so like meeting you now I like get the sense that you're very in on the joke. But like how much of your intention is to make this thing that's actually functional that helps you interact with people and how much of it is to just. to be like point at something and be like, this is interesting. Maybe it's funny as well. Well, first, I just love that you didn't, you're like, is this, does this go have any idea I was laughing at her? Yeah, so it's definitely, I get this question a lot and, or sometimes it's asked like, you know, are you optimistic or critical about the future?

And I'm like, yes, both. And then they say which, and I'm like, well, whichever, the opposite of whatever you think. But no, to more seriously, like, I feel like it's impossible to say, you know, this, any one thing is like bad or good or the right track or the wrong direction. Yet we are asked to respond to things so quickly. It's like you scroll through it and you're supposed to be like, I like that. I'm going to write an angry tweet about that thing.

And so I really want to just make a space where people can just like consider things for a moment and sort of imagine what it is we're getting ourselves into. And so I find humor like a way to do that because, you know, you laugh and then you kind of, there's always some truth to every joke. And some people, it's less like, let me lecture you about this thing we should all think about and more like, here's something ridiculous. Now, what if I tell you, that's the future? Yeah, I mean, it's like I used to work at the onion.

And the term was like Flintstone vitamin. So it's like kind of the sweet thing, but it has some amount of nutrients. I like that. Yeah. And it's like basically your projects too, right? Yeah, yeah. And I wonder like on the flip side, like why so much of this like near future science fiction black mirror type TV content is like almost across the board negative and like fearful. Whereas like your stuff, which like more often than not like catches some attention online when you release it and it's like funny.

And there don't seem to be as many like really negative like the world is ending artists. But like yet the media is like the exact opposite of that. Do you have any idea why those like shows are successful? I think they tap into a fear that people have. And yet they present in a way that is sort of like relatable and not just. like, you know, doom and gloom headline. But I think for me, it's like important, I guess that's part of it. Like, yes, we feel scared.

We feel uncertain things are changing quickly. We don't know what's going to happen. Some things seem definitely going in a terrifying direction. But we can't just like unwind or rewind or we can't just stop it from coming. So how do we move forward? And so for me, it's like essentially. to find the parts that are worth keeping that we are excited about and try to like do more of that. And so I guess with all these projects, it's always like this layering of both of those things.

It's like, yes, there's the fear. There's the that is totally messed up, like what's going on. But then there's also the part where you're like, oh, that's kind of nice. You know, I just followed this person around all day while their phone was like broadcasting the location and like, we had like a really sweet time. That was weird and great. It's cool. Like have you ever used like WeChat where you can just like shake the phone?

phone and connect with someone. It's like very pointless but kind of sweet. Yeah. Yeah. Have you, um, have you, have you,

like, dug into your projects and try to, like, retain people in your apps for longer periods of time to, like, create a lasting effect or a more lasting effect? That's such a good question. Um, I guess not.

I guess, um, I mean, there are a lot of, like, friendships that have sort of come out of these projects and then I'll continue to, you know, then they become friends.

in their bedroom. Right, less of that. I mean, I actually met my husband through one of these projects, which is when I was doing the Social Turkic thing, he was actually, happened to be one of the people watching and giving advice on, like, the last date. And then, like, wrote to me afterwards, and it was like, wow, this project was so interesting.

Like, I would love to meet up. And then we, yeah. Crazy. Yeah. So it did work out. Yeah. Right. So people always ask if that project's successful,

and I'm like, well, I mean, yeah, kind of I got a husband out of it, I guess. I would, yeah, that would be a success. Yeah. But not the way you think. You met someone who was like helping you interact with people. And what's his attitude toward other people like? Like obviously, or maybe not obviously, he likes to be on the computer side of your projects, or does he like to be told what to do interacting with others?

He needs no instruction. He's just like totally comfortable. Yeah. He's comfortable with computers. He's comfortable with people. Yeah, I just keep him around. I'm just jealous. Yeah.

He's trying to learn. And so what is he? He's a digital artist as well, right? Yeah. What kind of stuff does he work on? Well, so we work on a lot of projects together. So we did this Us Plus project that I mentioned. He's maybe a little bit dives deeper in some of the theory and technical things that are

possible. And so right now he's working on a lot of like machine learning experiments and doing some really cool stuff of that. Before that he was really focused on computer vision. So he did this one project where he had this like pile of mirror balls, like disco balls. And then he was had a number of projectors that were aimed at them and a number of cameras. And the camera would like detect where every single surface of every single ball was. and then project the proper pattern so that when it bounced off of the balls, it would create these patterns on the walls that look like really cool, morphing, like, you know, arrangements that were all, like, super calculated based on all these angles of reflection.

Yeah. That's pretty technical. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very cool, though. Yeah. And so, okay, so if someone, like, likes your work, like, and what's his name, just so people know? Oh, Kyle McDonald. Yeah.

And so if someone likes your work or Kyle's work, and they want to start doing, this kind of thing, where would you, like, where do they get started? Do they go to art school? Do they learn, like, processing? What do they do? Yeah. I mean, I think tools like processing or P5JS, open frameworks, Arduino for electronics, these are really great places to just start messing around. School is great, but I don't think it's like necessary at all. I think what's really actually exciting about these tools is that there are these communities of people. online and like you know artists have always been good at making community but I think especially digital artists like that is where they go to find each other and so I would say just start experimenting

hang out online try to figure out like what I guess the biggest thing is like what is your unique way of looking at this stuff or working with it you know a lot of it's easy to make something sparkly but like what do you have to say or what do you see in it that's different than what others do Do you find that by like contemplating or do you find it by just doing stuff? I think it's different for everyone. I just start with like my anxieties and work from there. Oh yeah, I guess that's pretty obvious. But yeah, I think doing stuff is usually a good place to go if you haven't.

It's not coming in your thoughts. Cool. And like I guess wrapping up like what are for people in art school like what is your advice to them? Like how could someone make the most out of it? Um, I think so a couple things, you know, and the thing you'll probably hear from your teachers is like, this is your moment to take risks and to fail and you should do that. And, you know, that's pretty easy. But the people are the thing that is really special about grad school. You know, you're the network that you make with the teachers or the people in the community and the alumni, but a, a,

especially like your peers in the program. These are the people that you'll continue to run into and connect with through your life. And so just to take, you know, not to be so focused on your work that you don't connect with the people around you. And then the thing I wish I hadn't was like to ask questions. Like I always felt like I was supposed to know what to do

and I never had any clue. And so I just tried to like get through without getting in trouble or something. But now I have all these scenes that are just like asking me questions all day long. I'm like, well, I wish I had done that. Like, I could have gotten so much value out of this. Like, I didn't know you could ask anything.

It's incredibly helpful. Like, when I was just starting to, like, do some Python stuff, like having that mentor that I could ask really dumb questions to made all the difference when it came to just like, I would learn things that I wasn't even intending to learn. And they're just like, oh, you just do that. And then it works. And you're like, oh, God, I wish. Oh, man.

And then my last question for you is just like, influence. So artists, I guess, most obvious, but then like any kind of like books or film or anything like that? I would say artists, you know, ones that are sort of further in their careers that I'm looking at are like Sophie Cal, Jill Maghide, both of them kind of dealing with surveillance and watching in really personal ways. A lot of like performance artists, like touching Shea, who like tied himself with a rope to his collaborator, for a year and they didn't separate. And I just think of this as like, you know, we're doing all this like interaction design, but like all, you know,

a rope can like change your life. I don't think they spoke to each other after that project ended. Wow. And, yeah, and then I guess in terms of movies, actually, I read a lot of books and I read a lot of fiction. My favorite is like Joyce Carol Oates. And because I heard that like fiction changes your personality. And so we try to like do that.

However I can treat my personality to better interact with people. Like what do I need? I'm not sure Joyce Cole. It's like the one that you want because usually your characters are really twisted. And I also love this movie called Synecdochee, New York, where it's like this artist kind of building this world that he sort of loses himself in. But the last scene is like him listening to this. Oh, this spoiler, allowed.

This audio tape where he's got these headphones and it's like instructing what to do. And it's like, go up the stairs into this like set of a house he's built. And it's like, go up the stairs, lie down in bed, close your eyes, now like die, something like that. That was like the end of his life. Yeah, so that's my dream for end of life care. I think we're definitely going to get there. We're probably there right now. Just like write an audiobook.

Cool. All right. So if someone wants to like learn more about you, follow you online, where do you like publish stuff and where it's going to find you? So website Lauren dash McCarthy. Yep, that's right.com. And yeah, you can go there or you can. And that's where I publish most things. Like most of my pieces are first kind of released online as videos or interventions. So you might not even know it's my work, but you might see something pop up that are. outrageing people in your social media feed or something like that. And there you go, that's you. And will you be doing anything this summer that people can, like, check out?

Yeah, so I'm doing this home project, and I'm actually going to be open soon for sign-ups. So you can look out for that, and potentially we can, I can come watch you in your home and control everything. And that will be on your, like, your website, your Twitter account or something? Yeah, yeah, both of those. Yeah, and then I guess the other thing to check out is like P5JS.org, which is this platform that I lead the development of. If you're interested in, you know, making some code art yourself. Okay, thank you.

Yeah, thanks. You're great. Okay, thanks for listening. So as always, please remember to rate and subscribe to the show. And if you want to read the transcript or watch the video, that's at blog.Ycommodator.com. All right. See you next week.