You Be Trippin' - China w/ Hamilton Morris | You Be Trippin' with Ari Shaffir

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Follow Hamilton on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/hamiltonmorris/?hl=en SPONSORS: -Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at https://shopify.com/trippin , all lowercase On this episode of You Be Trippin, Hamilton Morris shoots a steam punk rock opera in a drug manufacturing plant in China. On the show, he and Ari talk about where drugs come from, different ways to make MDMA, and how fentanyl became so prevalent in America drugs. The also discuss how journalists negatively write about drugs, secret recordings, no-cebo effects, and the guy that ate a homeless man’s face. Other topics include: the Twilight Zone decapitation, synthetic cannabinoids, spyglasses, VICE, the doctrine of signatures, Martin Shkreli, and why stimulants are unavailable. Tune in, drop out, and enjoy the trip! You Be Trippin' Ep. 53 https://www.instagram.com/arishaffir https://www.instagram.com/youbetrippinpod https://store.ymhstudios.com Chapters 00:00:00 - Intro 00:01:37 - Drugs & Society 00:07:30 - Making MDMA 00:16:49 - How Journalists Cover Drugs 00:20:21 - Legal & New Drugs 00:23:26 - Visiting the Labs, VICE, & Shanghai 00:26:19 - Getting Around & Filming 00:32:46 - A Steam Punk Drug Baron 00:37:18 - More Labs, An Ethical Chemist, & Eating Faces 00:43:34 - Bathrooms & Secret Recordings 00:52:57 - The Steam Punk Rock Opera, The Twilight Zone, & Synthetic Cannabinoids 01:00:21 - Martin Shkreli & Drug Costs 01:04:20 - Fentanyl 01:14:18 - No-cebo Effect 01:19:46 - Why Fentanyl is in Everything & Stimulants are 01:25:30 - More Rock Opera & Where Next 01:28:34 - Amazonian Cures 01:31:23 - Why Psychedelics 01:36:46 - Travel Tips Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Terms and conditions apply. There really is, I was telling somebody about like the feelings you get on on Molly, on MDMA. I love how Maps is always like, please don't call it Molly. They're trying to make it an actual like usable drug. But like I've fallen in love on it before. And then people like, but then when you come off it,

like you realize that was just a drug. And it's like, the feelings real feeling less Yeah, it's it's complicated. I mean I've had I've never had something that was like completely illusory, but definitely I That's the main reason I wouldn't want to do it in public because you can just end up in a conversation with some stranger Where you have this tremendous boundless love and they're not necessarily a bad person, but it just seems like maybe a small waste of your, or maybe that's what it's all about.

Maybe where you like connect with somebody. I think the biggest problem with it is like calling an ex saying you don't wanna fight anymore or like life's too short and then the next day you go, ah, I really actually quite want to keep fighting. Shouldn't have made that call. Now it's, I was really set in. Where you been and where you going?

This is Ari's Travel Show, yeah. We're gonna talk about travel today. It's UB Trippin', yeah. Hello everybody, welcome to UB Trippin'. It's a travel podcast. Every episode a guest comes on and tells me about some fucking cool place in the world. It's the only podcast that is both audio and video. Today my guest is Hamilton Morris. What's going on? Not much. Yeah.

I'm happy to be here. Thanks. Good to meet you. Yeah. Did I just say your name wrong? No, you said it correctly. Damn, okay, just for a second there, I was like, what did I just say?

Yeah, you seemed uncertain. Yeah, right? You could feel it. I was like, wait, it's Morris. No, I got it. I can introduce myself if it's... You would have done it similarly, right? I mean, if I said the name right, then it probably would have been overlapped. Where are we going today?

What do you want to tell me about? Thanks for doing it, by the way. Of course, of course. Yeah. I thought I would talk about my trips to China to visit various drug manufacturing facilities. Nice. Yeah. Already, I don't consider, I don't think of China with drugs. So it's already kind of interesting. Well, that's interesting. Yeah, it's

culturally conservative and not something that people won't associate with drugs, but at the same time it is the land of drugs. It is the birthplace of, I mean, it's the birthplace of so much of the material goods in our world. It's like a third of all manufacturing almost takes place in China, and the chemical industry is 44% of the world's chemicals come from China. Really? Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah. So when it comes to chemistry and chemical production, China is the place. There's nothing like China. And I've been to China four times. Every single time, I only visited factories and labs. What? Yeah. Because it's so interesting to see

where all this stuff comes from. I feel like in order to understand any phenomenon, particularly in the realm of drugs you have to think very carefully about where things come from because that informs everything else. What do you mean? You know, like what? I think a lot of people have this idea that our world of drugs is some kind of meritocracy and the drugs that people use are the best drugs but that is very much not the case.

What do you mean? Like alcohol would be the... So like that's the best because it's available but it's only because we have it. It's just a quirk that it happens to be this metabolic byproduct of the fermentation of glucose and yeast and for so many generations humanity has observed this effect where rotting fruit or honey or whatever produces an intoxicating effect and this became integrated into almost every human culture and so we think all right alcohol that's the drug, but it's not. I mean, it just happens to be the case

that yeast does this thing that produces this extraordinarily toxic chemical that is really not very good at all, but due to historical factors and cultural factors, it becomes integrated into our society. And that's the case for most drugs. It's not as if most of the drugs we use are the best thing. They just happen to exist often

because there's some kind of natural source that's readily available. Like cocaine wouldn't be used at all if it weren't the case that in South America, there's a culture of consuming coca leaves and it grows abundantly in these impoverished regions and there's a lot of money to be made extracting it and refining it and exporting it

to wealthier countries. But if it weren't being produced by plants, if plants weren't doing all of the synthetic heavy lifting, no one would be doing cocaine. Right, right, or just like boomers are big in places where they grow. Exactly, but that's the other weird thing is like, you really like mushrooms, right, or just like boomers are big in places where they grow. Exactly, but that's the other weird thing, is like, you really like mushrooms, right?

You started a mushroom holiday. Shroomfest. Yeah, July 22nd this year. And I think most people think that mushrooms are the greatest psychedelic. They're the most commonly used psychedelic, and the reality is that it just happens to be the most available psychedelic. But in the 1960s nobody was using mushrooms because weirdly people didn't know that they

grew in the United States and nobody knew how to cultivate them outside of a lab. It wasn't until Terrence McKenna and Dennis McKenna introduced these techniques for home cultivation that the world of mushrooms that currently exist emerged. It went from being this ultra obscure thing to the most common psychedelic. Yeah, whoever invented closets was also pretty good. Without John Closet they would have uh and Jimmy Heatlamp. Yeah. They'd have a lot of problems. But that's the case for everything like all these it's not because mushrooms are necessarily the best although I do think that and Jimmy Heatlamp, they'd have a lot of problems. But that's the case for everything. Like all these, it's not because mushrooms are necessarily the best, although I do think

that they're pretty amazing. Pretty great, it's a great starter too, of like starter psychedelic, you know what I mean? Where it's like if you wanna go like hard hard, which you definitely, your reputation precedes you, but like, how do you, nobody goes straight to fucking, I don't know, crocodile or meth, you know? It's just like, you need like a way in.

Also in fairness, I'm getting way more into acid lately. Yeah, it's amazing. I feel like I'm betraying mushrooms. But that's another example. The only reason that people have access to LSD is because the majority of the molecule is being synthesized by a fungus and then there's a final modification

that chemists do to convert lysergic acid into LSD. But if it weren't for that fungus, nobody would have LSD. So I've always been interested in tracing these things and why people use the drugs that they use because it isn't about them being the best drugs necessarily It's about all these other factors and it's really in China that you can Identify a lot of these factors. So When you make MDMA, you know, there's a you know, there's an almost infinite number of drugs and there is a

Demonstrably infinite number of ways to make that almost infinite number of drugs. You can make MDMA countless ways, but again, you want to start with something that is as close to MDMA as possible to reduce the amount of work that you have to do. Okay. Like if someone said like can you make a salmon dinner? You would want a frozen salmon filet as opposed to like salmon semen and a salmon egg. And it started off. It's gonna be a while. So you want to go to China like see where this stuff comes from?

Well, I was really interested. there was this kind of weird phenomenon where the natural source of MDMA is Sassafras typically. Oh really? Yeah. It comes, it's a chemical called Saffrol. It's found in a number of different plants. Sassafras is a big one. There's also this tree that grows in Cambodia and Indonesia, it doesn't have an English name. I think the Latin binomial is Cinnamomum Parthenoxalon.

But it's like this giant tree. And you can cut down these trees and extract the oil from the tree and use that oil to make MDMA. So there was this kind of illegal harvesting of old-growth trees in Cambodia that had become a very popular way of obtaining saphril to make MDMA. Wow, I always thought MDMA was just lab and nothing to do with natural. Well it is synthetic but you want to start with that material that contains most of the molecule.

Yeah. OK, I get what you're saying. So in 2008, there was a major crackdown on the illegal harvesting of these, I think they're sometimes called camphor trees in. See if I recognize them. The trees. Yeah. Yeah. was called camphor trees in the trees yeah yeah type in cinnamomum parthenoxalone come on bro

P-A-R-T-H-E-N-O-X-Y-L-O-N, I believe. Ugh, fuck it, all right. That's why you get a producer. Yeah, imagine everyone imagine a tree. Yeah, okay. I was like, I don't know what I was like, but whatever man, we're not to see it, idiot. All right, well, this is episode 72 of how R.A.'s secretly autistic.

So in 2008, there was this initiative to prevent people from illegally cutting down these old groups. Here or over there? In Cambodia. Okay, cool. And the government. They needed them for beating baby skulls against. Exactly.

At the point of time again. They needed to use them for something good. And the government burned, I think it was like 33 tons of the saffrol containing oil, which was equivalent to somewhere in the ballpark of 30 million MDMA tablets. What? So this was actually a pretty, I mean- It's really sad. You can never prevent people from doing drugs, obviously.

People have tried continuously. Just raise the price up, that's all you're really doing. Even then, but then people will use a different drug. No, I'm saying burning all these things is just making us all pay more. Yeah, exactly. So they burn these trees, or they burn the oil from these trees, and around the same time there's a

kind of online market emerging and there's a increased incentive because MDMA has become more expensive and less available to find replacement drugs and there was this drug called methadrone for methyl methacathinone and it was cheaper to make and it didn't require the oil of sassafras or these cinnamomum parthenoxalon trees and and this stuff became immensely popular and it was also legal internationally because it was a new drug. Love a new drug. Yeah. Love a new Senator Unaware drug.

Legal, new and among other things it was also very good. I tried this drug and I thought it was fantastic. Drugs you won't do, just like mmm. I don't like a lot of drugs. I don't like alcohol. It was like you won't try them is what I'm saying. Or are you just like, I I got to give it a go. I mean extremely neurotoxic things I probably wouldn't.

You know there's drugs that are demonstrably neurotoxic that really are dangerous. Oh right. Yeah. But they're not commonly used. But so not something like that. But and then there's things that I don't think there's any, you know, all this kind of scopolamine type stuff. It's not that I'm categorically against it. It's just that being delirious for several days is something that I usually don't have time for. It's hard to justify.

That is the thing with some of these drugs where it's like, first of all, it's midnight. You should have come to me at like 4 p.m. Like, I got shit to do tomorrow. I just don't have the energy for it sometimes. Hi everybody, I'm breaking in real quick to let you know that Hamilton Morris has his own podcast. It's called the Hamilton Morris podcast. It's also on Patreon, patreon.com slash Hamilton Morris.

Myself, I've got a tour coming. I've also got a special on Netflix right now called America's Sweetheart. It's called the number one special of 2025 out of the three that have been on Netflix so far. I'm on the road. San Antonio, Tampa, Denver, Schaumburg, Atlanta, Portland, San Jose, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale, Seattle, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and Anchorage. All tickets are available at rechevier.com. I've also got merch up like this one, the stay positive shirt, the main message from my special.

I've also got a new one too called the go for a hike shirt. You should check that out. Anyway, I think that's it. Please subscribe wherever you are watching or listening. I'm having a lot of fun with this podcast. I mean, what's even the point of this? Is anyone paying attention to these crazy things I do? All right, get back to the episode. China with Hamilton Morris.

I've got a great wrap up for this. Also, I need to apologize. Guys, I'm not saying I'm perfect. I've never said I'm perfect. And knowing that, it kind of makes me perfect. This is a good episode to do this in. I was given a box. Let's leave it at that. A box from the Weed Maps guys in Brea, California and I appreciated it. And I was going to take it home. I was going

to go through Nashville where I am now at the Russell Hotel and then on onwards to the United States of America, New York, New York. And in that box was a lot of edibles and a lot of a lot of mushroom chocolate bars. And I left it in the back seat of the Volkswagen compact SUV that I rented from Thrifty. Now my only hope is the man who checked me in with spacers in his ears I'm begging that you looked in the back seat there and figure that out. You recognized me, you knew who I was. I'm hoping you

opened that box and someone got some joy out of it. There's also unfortunately a hat that was in there with the side flaps. It was a great hat. I had my bava clava too but that hat really went with me to a long a lot of places. I don't like to say an R.I.P. to that hat. The mushroom shurr. That was a mistake and I'll never live that down. I was legitimately upset. I was legitimately upset when I found out I'd left that back there. Get the shirt at RRsphere.com. But that hat, R.I.P. You served me well.

I remember trying to stuff you under a ski helmet once with the flaps. You were a good hat. You were a good hat. All right. Let's get back to the episode. RIP, the flappy hat. Maybe you saw it on this podcast. Could we do a montage of me wearing that hat?

Just a quick, I will remember you type of thing. Chad, do you have any sad music? Anyway, let's get back to the episode. Sorry about the loss of drugs. Legitimately to Hamilton Morris, I apologize to you. That was wrong, especially for this week's episode of Do That. Now let's get back to China and drug labs.

Anyway, so these drugs are being made in China. That's how you got there. Yeah, and I mean this documentary series, Hamilton's Pharmacopia, I've been working in a lab doing medicinal chemistry for most of my adult life. And I've always been really interested in the interplay of drugs

and how journalists cover these drugs because historically journalists have done a catastrophically bad job of covering these issues. They've done such a bad job that many people have conspiracy theories. They think that journalists must be under the thumb of the government or big pharma in order to write all these negative things about drugs all the time.

And the sad reality is that as far as I've seen, they're not, they're choosing to discuss drugs this way. Is it just because of like the predispositions like the way they were raised I was in a I was in a here's the example I was in a Amazonian city like a main city city yeah and they outskirts and and this guy who worked at the chamber of not commerce but but I don't know, whatever, was like, hey, we should separate ourselves from the other cities by being the Ayahuasca city.

Like, you can come here. And everybody else was like, we're not getting a bunch of fucking degenerate backpackers here to do drugs all day. And he had to be like, that's not what's gonna happen. It's not an everyday drug. And then they were like, no. And then he goes, okay, tell you what though,

can I just take you on an Ayahuasca trip? And they were like, yeah, I'll do that tell you what though Can I just take you on an ayahuasca trip and they were like, yeah I'll do that because they all grew up with like in like with like indigenous like family and stuff So like sure and then they do it one by one. They're like, oh, I was just wrong about it It's not this fucking people with dreadlocks coming by here every day and like begging for change It's they're gonna come do it and leave. Yeah, and so it was just lack of understanding that made them be against it lack of understanding and this sort of cautionary, fear-based culture where I feel that everyone is, they'll say, well, some people will have a bad experience

and of course they will, or some people will get hurt, of course it will, but that's the case with almost everything, yet there isn't this weird tendency to focus on the negatives. Anyway, so I've always been sort of amazed by this. And when this new drug, methadrone, emerged, of course it was no different. And all of the reporting was like, look at an inside look at the filthy Chinese labs

where the designer drugs that our youth are taking are being made. And there'd be some photo of a not particularly dirty lab. And... It was like somebody spilled something. You're like, hey, I'm like, well, they're about to clean it up. Yeah. Also, have you seen any fucking Chinese restaurants?

Like, you gotta have something to compare it to. Well, it just felt like it was as if someone who had never cooked anything was going into a restaurant and saying, wait a second, there's grease splattered on the stove, what are we doing here? Like these people had no idea what they were talking about. And it annoyed me because the reality, I've analyzed a lot of samples of various drugs from China,

and the reality is that compared to the typical black market, they're for the most part doing a very good job. And I mean that's a huge generalization because as I said, it's like about half of the world's chemicals but from what I've seen with the drugs that are the kind of recreational drugs that are coming from China, it's usually been pretty pure. And yeah. Who's paying them to do it? Is it illegal? Like, what, these labs?

The consumers. I mean, this is another kind of interesting historical change that occurred with the globalization of the chemical trade, where historically things like MDMA were made domestically. So you'd have people that made MDMA in Texas or wherever, but the penalties became so harsh that it became, and the surveillance was so intense.

Of course, it didn't prevent anyone from using MDMA, but it did deter people from making it domestically. Yeah, also this is what I, once like weed became legal in California first, or more or less, you know, God, it got so much better. Cause they weren't worried about getting cracked down on. And they're like, let's grow this weed a little longer. Let's like put two plants together

and really try to make something special. Oh yeah, anytime you have a regulated industry that's legal, it tends to be better. Yeah, they're not worried about getting rated at any moment, so they're just like, it's like cooking almost. And there was testing that was necessitated by many states, so there was a requirement

to produce good product. But in China, they weren't having any worries about the, like. It was legal in China. It was having any worries about the... It was legal in China. It was legal pretty much everywhere at this point. But it was being made in China. And unlike MDMA, you could actually make methadrone from toluene. Like the hardware store solvent toluene can be converted in a number of synthetic steps to MDMA. So the precursor is inexpensive, very readily available, and they had the facilities to make it

in enormous quantities. And this drug really became popular as a sort of, people would describe it as a hybrid between MDMA and cocaine qualitatively, like the experience of it. Cool. Yeah, and it really, it produced this effect that was kind of like an 80s wedding photography

kind of effect, at least for me, where it's like everything has this kind of like Vaseline on the lens, glowy look that I thought was very pleasant. Did you find out about it and do it here and then go let me go see, you know, where it's grown? Yeah, yeah. Well, I saw it. So I was reading all these reports about how terrible these labs were. And I was reading all these reports about how terrible these labs were and I was thinking this is so unfair to these Chinese chemists.

I really want to visit these labs and understand what they're doing and tell the true story of this industry. So I started going to China. You were a very weird correlation of science Jew and reporter. Well, there was a definitively sinophobic element to it like in all the news reports and it's being made in China. Oh yeah, there's that too, where it's just like that's just a buzzword for evil.

Yeah, yeah, so is that almost everything. So, what is your just like, that's just a buzzword for evil. Yeah, yeah, it's like, so is almost everything. So, it was like, what is your- Yeah, take your shirt off, loser. Yeah. So, I thought like, no one is gonna tell the truth of any of this unless I do it. So, I've gotta go to China and visit these labs. And the first time I went was in 2012.

And this was like This was during the period where vice was Starting to have a ton of cash and it was they were very rich and it was the best type It was they were nouveau riche and that's the best type of Reach it was so cool back then well where they got sold or whatever I don't know what happened, but like They were so cool back then. Before they got sold or whatever. I don't know what happened, but like, they were so cool. They had more money than they knew what to do with. So typically when you pitch a story to some news outlet,

especially if it's gonna cost them any money to produce, it's difficult, they ask a lot of questions. There was none of that. You'd say, I wanna go to China and visit some synthetic cannabinoid and methadrone labs and they'd say like alright, okay sure Go for it. Here's the company card. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah. Yeah and So I went Okay, I mean how would I would be so tempted to just be like sick

I'm just gonna like stay in Shanghai and fuck hookers for like a week and then like and then like kind of like move by I couldn't find it With no nobody, nobody walking over me anyway you're like focused. And I started going to these labs and it was sort of as I had assumed it was very innocent I didn't see any indication. They let you in? They let me in yeah yeah and I filmed a good bit of stuff and crazily all the footage was lost no the Somehow and vice was so disorganized during this period that don't even ask questions about it No one was like wait a second didn't we send you and a cameraman to China to film this it was lost somehow which end on

It was maybe the cameraman or the producer who was managing the media. I don't know exactly what happened. I mean things were very disorganized. So disorganized that no one even, as I said, asked questions about us going to China to visit these labs. Where were these labs? What towns? Or where are the problems? Shanghai. In Shanghai? Yeah. Wow. Have you... and you had been there before or no? Yeah. How much does Shanghai fucking rule? It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool

How come what do you like about it? I mean I love manufacturing as weird as that Like it is so cool To see this stuff to see where everything comes from like I love that Wow Wow, yeah, you're like're like a nine-year-old when he sees one of those caterpillar trucks. Like, wow, that's kind of a plane with. Wow, that's a great reason to go to Shanghai for the sea of the manufacturing.

Yeah, great manufacturing there. Yeah, I like the mix of old and new. Yeah, that's also beautiful. And just like, it's so foreign. How'd you get by over there? Language wise and like, and like, the first time for guide, there was the first time there was no guide, we just somehow made it work. The second time there was a local guy who was a translator who was helping.

There were actually two local people as part of the story who were, so the footage was lost, no one even noticed. And I decided that I would go back and film the story again in 2014. That's when I went. Yeah. Yeah. Good time to be there. God, when I went. Yeah. Yeah. Good time to be there.

God, it was great. Yeah. It was so like open to foreignness. They hadn't really cracked down on anything yet. The comedy scene was fucking wild. Oh really? There was a spy in every show, we knew that. But so they're like, don't say anything about the government.

And then you'd be like, okay. And they'd be like, hey listen, I know what your comedian brain thinks as soon as I tell you that. This isn't like you'll walk people like we'll definitely be shut down forever and There's a chance of jail. Just don't just please don't do it. Did you do it? I made one joke because I was doing I didn't wait I'm doing a China jokes, but I was doing jokes about American politics

I was really disillusioned Yeah, and I was like we need a Mao in my country to come murder all our senators and I was like ooh I'm like, it's pro Mao. They're like, just move on, man. Yeah, anyway, fun times though. That club got shut down after a while. We got all we needed from your capitalism. We figured it out.

You guys are welcome to leave. But yeah, it was a cool time to be there. Hi guys, today's episode of UB Trip Wow. Um, but yeah, it was a cool time to be there. Yeah. Hi guys. Today's episode of UB Trippin is brought to you by Shopify.com. Not only do I build my own website on Shopify, that's true, I do do it. Um, to do. Can you believe it?

To do. I'm sorry Shopify. You're gonna free your ad read. Uh, this is pretty smutty. Not only do I do make my own website on Shopify.com Arshafir where I sell my new go for a hike shirt and this one Stay positive shirt. I think we're all out of Fidelberg shirts, but also I'm selling the hard parts of diarrhea guys when you're making diarrhea. It's not all soft. We all know it's not all soft

There's hard parts and those hard parts can be drop shipped. Yeah. If you go to Shopify.com right now, you can make your own website and sell whatever you want to sell. It doesn't have to be as quality of idea as the hard parts of diarrhea. Yeah, of course you're thinking corn, right? Sure, that's just one possibility. Expand your mind.

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Shopify.com slash Trippin. Now let's get back to the episode. Oh, I got a hard part coming right now. Oh also, by the way, I should mention this. It's not like when you have a full hard poop. I'm not interested in that. Only diarrhea's, the hard parts. Clear your schedule for you time with a handcrafted espresso beverage from Starbucks. Savor the new small and mighty Quartado,

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Or you could just do a nice church service. It's like the shaky, like what's going on here? So I was like, I don't wanna do any of this. I have nothing to hide. I'm here to show the reality of what's going on. If I explain myself and my intentions, surely they'll let me film in their labs openly. And that was not the case.

Yeah. Wait, did they know they were doing something wrong? Like if I went to visit a box factory to see how they make boxes Simpsons episode I think They'd be like sure maybe come on in as long as we're not doing like human rights abuses at the box factory You'd be super I actually bet if you tried to film in a box factory that they might say no Cuz like what do we have to gain? Yeah. Yeah, or they might be there might be some box haters that

There probably are there's probably some anti box group. Yeah fucking Gays male gays hate boxes It's like watch the I mean, I'm a little bit anti box actually, maybe I would be the hater There are too many boxes in this one There's not too many boxes you ever get an Amazon package and it's a box like, why so big? And then there's another box inside that box. Yeah. What are you doing?

It's fucked up. It's fucked up. You should get a hidden camera and expose these boxes for being too big. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I contact them, I try, I contact lots and lots and lots of labs and nobody is allowing me to film. So then I start thinking, well, how can I do this openly

if nobody is allowing me to do it? You were stuck on I wanna go openly. I don't wanna shift on that yet. Yeah. Okay. So my next idea is, well, what if I can find someone who has poured so much money into the Chinese chemical industry

that they feel indebted to him, and they will allow him to tour the labs. And I vaguely knew this drug baron in New Zealand, this guy Matt Bowden, who had made a fortune selling this drug BZP, which was a kind of legal MDMA replacement drug. It was somewhat popular in the 90s. It was actually very popular in New Zealand and had pivoted from BZP to synthetic cannabinoids.

And the money that he'd poured into the industry had built factories in China. He was a big player. And so I thought, okay, well, if Matt Bowden can make a call. Is coming with me, they'll do it for Matt Bowden. Yeah. And so Matt Bowden was very nice and he said,

okay, I'll do anything I can to try to make this happen. That's why I'm with Rogan. They're like, sorry, we don't have any reservations. I'm like, I think I'm, Joe Rogan might be joining me. They're like, oh, actually. I've thrown that name around so much. So Matt Bowden calls all of these different manufacturers that he's worked with, and they say, sorry.

Really? You can't do it. For a legal thing. For a legal thing. That's got to pique your interest. Yeah. Well, they just don't want the trouble. They've seen the way the journalists treat these issues.

Right. What are the chances that a journalist is truly going to be on their side? This would be almost unheard of. I get it actually now. What's the benefit? We're running a successful business. We're getting nothing from this. To have a journalist come in and film everything that we're doing for people that won't understand.

Yeah. This episode wanted tires. everything that we're doing for people that won't understand. Yeah. This is episode one of Tires. So being honest and open about what we were trying to do didn't work. Matt Bowden intervening on my behalf didn't work. So then my next tactic was to exploit the fact that Matt Bowden was a musician. He was a steampunk musician. He'd used his fortune to buy all of these like elaborate steampunk devices and costumes. Very, yeah. Really? Like he had, he had like a building full of custom-made like Wild Wild West goggles and like all just what's that festival called? Burning Man shit. Damn. Look at him. What a dork. Well, well, okay. So, oh, yeah, this is my Burning Man outfit. You just everyone has these glasses.

And this is actually from the shoot, so I'll get into this. So the next tactic was map out and as a musician, what if instead of going as journalists, exactly, we go openly filming, but we're not filming the labs per se, we're filming a steampunk rock opera. We're going to pay you to use a location. Yeah. And secretly you're spying. a steampunk rock opera. We're gonna pay you to use a location. Yeah, to film. And secretly you're spying. Not, I wouldn't say secretly spying.

We are filming a steampunk rock opera in these labs. And we propose this and they say, absolutely, of course. Of course. Because Chinese love steampunk? Or because it's just like extra money? They did, they did. What? They loved, they were in awe

of his music and performances. They were, they were so, so excited by his artistry. What? Yes. Yeah, yeah, so this tactic. What? That's so weird, what? Yeah.

So this tactic. China's so fucking weird. Worked extraordinarily well. Not only were we able to film in the labs, they know we had tripods, we had dollies, we were going through everything. And all the chemists were so delighted by Matt Bowden's performance that they were stopping making drugs to watch him sing.

What? Like they were filming us. So great. Yeah. On their clearly superior cameras that we don't get. On their iPhones and stuff, whatever their versions of that are. Wow. Okay, so then you're in there and you're talking to them and stuff? Yeah. Okay, so then you're in there and you're talking to them and stuff? Yeah. Yeah, so this works spectacularly well and I was able to see all kinds of, I mean these

labs are really amazing, you know, there's, because it's not, it is very mercenary for better or worse. I don't really say that critically. They're not, you know, in the United States if someone's making MDMA, they're making MDMA to make MDMA. They know what they're making. They know why they're making it.

They know who's going to use it. In China, a lot of these labs, they're just making chemicals. I think a lot of the people genuinely did not know the nature of the chemicals that they were creating. This is why you'll get like a shower curtain from from China and it'll say like happy Passover and I'll have a Hanukkah candle on it because they're just like I don't know we threw together images they told us to. Yeah. They're

unaware really what they're doing. Yeah. Yeah because they're probably doing 500 things in that same factory like as people are making synthetic cannabinoids Someone else is making you know, they were they had these giant crystals of this chemical. There was a Dimethyl acetylsuccinate that's used to make tartrazine to color Mountain Dew and You know, it's just like okay, they're making the tartrazine over there. They're making the synthetic cannabinoids over here. They're making some intermediate for a pharmaceutical product over in the other corner. And I don't think that they really knew exactly what

a lot of these chemicals were. Which in and of itself is very interesting. It is interesting. Yeah. That they're just like And manufacturing and it was good. It wasn't it didn't find anything horrifying I didn't find that they're you know sprinkling lead powder and the drugs or anything like that it was sort of as I expected it was people doing their best to make chemicals and doing a pretty good job and

So oh you're in this Hamilton Morris travels to zeeland. Okay, I didn't read that part yet. Yeah, this is from... We made a piece for the Vice HBO show that covered parts of this. I mean, there were so many ramifications of this that were really bizarre. One was that I still just wanted to go to as many labs as possible and wanted to use the same tactic of total openness. And I remember we went to one lab in Pudong and tried the same thing, you know, is there any way that we can film? They say no, we've all agreed that there will be no secret recording and we're talking with this chemist and she's actually, unlike what I just said, she is aware. She does know what these drugs are being used for. She knows

that they're drugs. Yeah, oh, interesting. Yeah. And there was one drug that had become somewhat popular in Russia called MDMB-Fubinica. This was like an extremely potent synthetic cannabinoid. And I remember asking her, could I buy some MDMB Fubinica? And she was like, why on earth would you want MDMB Fubinica?

Don't you know about all these hospitalizations in Russia? And I was like, oh, okay, they do. Some people do know what's going on. This is very interesting. But you still wanna make it. Well, no, she was actually discouraging me from from asking her to make it. She didn't want to make it again ethical hard-working good it doesn't go with the story of a Billion people that here like sum up into one thing and it's like no, it's not it's just humans. They're like people dying

That's no good. Yeah, I mean, it's all- You know what I mean? It's this evil Chinese idea of a human. And the toxicity of these chemicals was intimately linked to their patterns of distribution. Like, I don't know if you followed all of the spice stuff in the United States,

but there would always be these news articles where they'd say an outbreak of spice poisoning among homeless people in Brooklyn, like what is the government going to do to prohibit these dangerous drugs? And no one was acknowledging the fact that the whole reason people were even using these drugs in the first place was because of prohibition,

because they didn't have access to cannabis. And because they couldn't legally be sold for human consumption the whole thing was you get a pouch of potpourri and There's no dosage information because dosage would draw attention would yeah would Indicate that it's intended to be consumed So you get a little mylar pouch of some stuff with a picture of SpongeBob on it. What is it? What is the dose? Do you smoke a whole joint of it to get high?

Do you smoke one hit of a joint? Do you smoke half a hit? And once people start overdosing or eating someone's face or whatever, then it's like, no, we're not looking to make this safer. We're just looking to get rid of it. Oh yeah, yeah, and you know the story of the face eating. Yeah, what was that?

It wasn't spice. It was nothing. The guy was so so he ate someone else's face sober he was a mentally ill man who ate a homeless man's face and some Cop was like this is a bath salts bath salts made him eat this guy's face and then everyone ran with it Yeah, right, and then they did Toxicological analysis and there was like a trace amount of THC in his blood,

but he was sober. I love they always do that, marijuana was found in his bloodstream. Like, what, I mean, I smoked a week ago? You're gonna blame it on that? Yeah. Like, what are you talking about? It's just dorks trying to fucking figure out what it was.

Yeah. Oh, can you, of all the faces to eat, a homeless, I don't even shake their hand. Get out of here. Yeah, it's rough. You gotta cook that. I tried to interview the man whose face was eaten. He lived? He survived. Yeah. Yeah. Was he just out and just being like eaten? Well that's what I wanted to talk to him about. I had some questions about how this even occurred.

When'd you stop fighting back? Were you, ugh. So you're gonna victim shame? Fair enough, I apologize. The views of the guests or hosts of this podcast are not necessarily reflective of the podcast itself. So you're in there just getting access to different ones. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm kind of seeing all of this and, you know, I just find the whole thing totally amazing. And we had- Can I break in for a second? Yeah. What were the bathrooms like at these places? I don't think I used the bathroom. Were you there for hours?

You're a Jew, you gotta piss every 20 minutes. I don't have a bathroom memory. Okay That's a good question though Wonder if they were the squatty ones or the fucking or the or the Western ones. Yeah Or if they were cleaned, can you have a clean fucking? Shit squat toilet for the most part the labs in general were very clean shit squat toilet. For the most part, the labs in general were very clean. We ate at the labs and they had nice food and it was good. Cool.

There were nice zones. And so this chemist who's running this lab is also doing contract work for Pfizer. I mean, they're doing all kinds of stuff. Pretty amazing to see the overlap of all these different industries. And I leave the lab and I was thinking, like I started talking to these people on the crew

and I was like, damn, that was amazing. Like I so, I know we all said that we're not gonna record anything secretly, but I so much wish that there were a recording of that conversation, it was so fascinating. And this woman, an English expat who's living in China who had been hired by the production to act as a field producer or something like that,

was like, well maybe there is a recording. It was like, what do you mean? She's like, maybe there is a recording. I was like, are you saying- She wanted to bribe? Are you saying that you recorded this? We all agreed there would be no secret recording but I'm happy that you did because it's very useful

even though we did agree that this would not happen. Please send it to me. I'd love to listen to it. Yeah. She's like, well I'm not sure. No way, she wants a fucking bribe. I'm not sure I wanna do that. And then Matt Bowden is listening to this,

he's like, what is going on right now? What is, someone is secretly recording these. Being coy about it? These conversations, yeah, being coy and villainous about their secret recording. And I remember talking to the producer and I was like, this other producer is saying that they were secretly recording my conversations. And he's like, Whatever. It was like, no, it's really weird that

she was doing that. It's a breach of contract. It's a goes against our agreement for this entire production. Like, I don't think this is a good thing and he's like it doesn't matter just just forget about it and and I was thinking like what is what what is going then I later realized that he was almost certainly sleeping with her which is Which is you know another element of the yeah, he's like, it's not worth it to fight with her, trust me. She gets annoying. What'd she want?

She want you to go down on her? She was like, I want to see what a Western fucking box munch was like. She was from England. So she just wanted a bribe or what'd she want? That's crazy. No, she wanted to take the story for herself. So why even tell you?

Because then she actually asked me to help her decipher some of the chemistry that was being discussed in her secret recording of me with the chemist. Fuck off, lady. Yeah, yeah. It was pretty wild. And I think people don't realize how crazy journalism is. Like everyone always talks about, you know, like the lying media or whatever,

but they don't realize that there truly is just totally unprofessional behavior going on routinely during these stories that you might read in whatever publication and think it's just some kind of normal reporting. that you might read in whatever publication and think it's just some kind of normal reporting. Let's assume it's her, is it? No. Yeah, I just like googling random stuff. That's nuts. So you wouldn't get the footage? You couldn't get it? The audio?

I don't think she ever gave it to me and she did publish an independent story. I don't want to hate on her too much. At the time I did say something on Twitter and then I could tell that people were gonna harass her and I didn't want to, didn't seem productive to initiate that sort of thing but after that it was kind of as if the whole nature of the production, the ethos of the production disintegrated. And there was this idea of like, all right, maybe we should just film in these labs. Maybe we should try it out.

And- Film secretly. Film secretly, yeah. And so again, Vice still had a lot of money at this point. And one of the producers was like, well, Vice gave us like state of the art this point and the one of the producers like well vice gave us like state-of-the-art best spy glasses the money can buy Top-of-the-line spy glasses and I was like, okay

Let me let me take a look at them and it opens up the box and it's like these massive Woody Allen Horn rim glasses with like a shiny lens on the bridge and a USB port on the arm and a glowing blue LED and I was like these are not very good spy glasses I don't I don't think that producer's like, you're right. These glasses are gonna get us killed. They're gonna get us killed and smashes them. And this was a weird production. He smashes the glasses, so then we go to this lab.

So there's gotta be some fear too, like you're in a, they weren't as enemy-ish then as now. But you're in a Formerly communist country there's gonna be some fear of like are we gonna be looked at as spies? You're also fucking with someone's business potentially at least you know Whatever if someone if you found out that I was secretly recording this conversation, it would be weird Yeah, even if you are recording it openly It's just secret recording in general is a kind of weird thing to do. Nobody likes it.

Nobody likes it. So spy glasses are smashing off the table. So then the next idea was some kind of hybrid between the two, which is just to wear a camera around your neck like a tourist and just have it on. And to use it periodically but in a and then put it away but still recording yeah yeah and ollie g was really good at this oh he would have people sign um like usage waivers as he was dressed up as ollie g and there was

another guy in a suit which the people being interviewed with him that's the interviewer and then ollie g would come in like hey I need you to do this and do that and then then the suit guy would get behind the camera and he'd be like oh what and then it'd be Ali G going like boyakasha whatever like but they've already signed it you know based on this other thing so they didn't think they were being pranked or like hey we're doing this interview about something and then this guy starts fucking with you but they've already signed the shit they have to sign right based on like a semi false pretense but like you got it done yeah

so like yeah that's a good idea like film somebody record and then put it back and just keep it going call attention to like when you're actually using it or just do it in a kind of amateurish way that is less threatening I mean even just the way a camera looks totally changes the way that people interact with it. If it's like a rig that has a shotgun mic and a big lens, people will interact with it totally differently than if it's a point and shoot. Yeah.

So we did this sort of hybrid, not hiding it, but kind of looking a little bit more amateur than we actually were. And that ended up being a sort of effective tactic. And again, we didn't really capture anything bad. I don't think that any of this was bad. I don't see it as an expose of anything evil. And my hope, if anything, was just to show that this is a sort of obvious

ramification of prohibition. This is just what happens. If you don't allow people to use the drugs that they want, they'll find a different way. And there was almost no way to avoid this. I mean, this is also what happened with fentanyl. This is what happens with pretty much any drug. As soon as you crack down. Even the fucking, whatever spice,

whatever they tell the army, like we're gonna test you for weed, and like, well we're still gonna get fucked up, so now we gotta do one molecule off. I'm talking to a guy who knows way more than me about it. No, no, but you're, that's absolutely right. That's 100% right. And that's how it actually started in the United States,

was in the military for that specific reason. This is the irony of drug testing is instead of preventing people from using drugs it promotes the use of untestable drugs with unknown effects and unknown toxicity and it was in the military where spice first took off because of urine analysis. Damn. Yeah. So you, you're, you're there, you're finding out all this shit. How'd you decide to leave or what'd you like?

Yeah. Like what's the story that, that it's all. I guess the story is that this is a thing that is going to continue until drug policy is reformed sufficiently to allow people to sell drugs openly. And I don't know if that message got across. I mean, there was also the steampunk rock opera. What was the, did that ever come out? Yeah, yeah, it came out.

Really? Yeah, it was part of the piece. What's that movie about the making of a doomed movie? I forget, was it like Brazil or something where there was like, the making of a movie never happened? Somebody died, I think, in the making of it. Sound familiar at all? Somebody got their head chopped off by a helicopter?

Well, that happened in the Twilight Zone movie. Oh yeah. And they used the scene in the Twilight Zone. They don't use the scene of the decapitation but they... have you seen this? They kept going with the scene? No. They... it's in the movie. They don't show the decapitation but they show everything leading up to the decapitation but of course don't acknowledge that the star was killed. Gone? Yeah. Wow. Fucking Hollywood. I mean it resulted in major labor reform in the film industry and a lawsuit so it was... Yeah but I'm just saying like that the idea that like well we got to make the movie instead of

like ah shit somebody died let's just go home. Still like, it's a picture, we got it, it's so important. Wait, so anyway, so this making of this rock opera, you made the rock opera? Yeah, yeah, we filmed a lot of. Did it rule? I thought it was an amazing experience. I think Matt Bowden's awesome.

And I think the whole reason that this happened was New Zealand had this very bizarre quirk in their drug policy where they refused to approve cannabis, but they said, you can't sell cannabis, but you can sell a synthetic cannabinoid if you subject it to a sort of preclinical analysis that's analogous to a pharmaceutical drug. If you demonstrate that it's not physically toxic, you can sell it as a recreational drug with no medical pretense, which is very different than what happens in the United States where everything typically passes through a medicalization period before approval, right? Before you have legal cannabis, you have Marinol

that's being prescribed for chemotherapy-associated nausea, and you have medical marijuana, and then gradually the medical pretense is dropped, and you have... There was a time in LA where it was medical marijuana, but it was so rampant, you know? There was a time where it was like, but there's a way to get in.

You can just find a crooked-ish doctor. And then there was a period when I got into it where it was like, oh, it was just everywhere. You could just say, I can't sleep. Yeah, you just can't, I mean, it's- And then you're in these stores and it's great, but then if someone in a wheelchair came in, there was a moment like, we're here because of you, please.

Like, without you and your suffering, we would not be able to get like fucked up, so go for it. Or someone with cataracts, they're like, we're here because of you, please. Like, without you and your suffering, we would not be able to get like fucked up. So go for it. Or someone with cataracts, like, please sir. Yeah. And now it's back to just like, fuck off, wait in line, cataracts idiot. Yup.

Like, it's nothing to do with you anymore. Yup, yeah. So they abandoned all of that pretense and they said, all right, you can just sell these drugs as recreational drugs for adults to use to get high and have a good time as long as you demonstrate that they're safe and Cool. I mean this was it was weird that they wouldn't approve cannabis But that aside it was actually incredibly progressive and sophisticated drug policy. That's been

Almost completely forgotten because it didn't work for a number of reasons. One was actually that animal rights activists protested it on the grounds that the preclinical toxicology work would hurt animals. Wow. Wow. Yeah. You're like, that's not even what we're doing.

But it's like, yeah, fair. Well, it's one of those things where- Especially with testing on rabbits. Yeah. You're like, that's not even what we're doing. But it's like, yeah, fair. Well, it's one of those things where- There's no testing on rabbits. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where it's like, if that's your concern- Makeup should be your issue. Or people eating meat. Right.

Would be the big one that is really- I think the scientific use of animals is probably the most justifiable of all uses. Depending on the, I mean it depends on the context. Like if someone's, you know, has a tradition and they're eating an animal to survive or whatever. I mean I eat meat, I'm not even moralizing in this dimension. But I think going after scientists is kind of the weirdest of all these paths of trying to.

Not the major problem. Not at all. Yeah. Not at all. Yeah. Not at all. So that was what undid a lot of this work ultimately and there was the issue that the synthetic cannabinoids, they were brilliantly designed. Like he had a whole team of chemists and pharmacologists

who were working and they made some really extraordinary drugs. I mean they had drugs that were far more potent than THC and they only lasted about 30 minutes so it was almost like like a cannabinoid DMT but the issue is that there is actually a pretty well established association between drug duration and its propensity for abuse and addiction where shorter duration drugs have a faster onset are almost always more abusable than a coke yeah like a coke and also goes away and like let's do that more

yeah those are an edible you're like I'm good for six hours yeah like I'm I don't need it and then when I'm done I'm like I'm done or mushrooms it's like we're done now yeah when it wears off it it'll be good. Yeah. Well mushrooms no one gets addicted. It's not even possible And it No, hold on Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go?

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Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? No. But if you know a chemist, please. It makes you temp- I don't know how to do it. I just want someone to- I have an idea for it. Okay. It makes you temporarily just get like homework done or whatever, autistic for a short amount of time. And then another pill to make you unautistic to get back to your normal life. Ah. Possible?

Maybe. I mean, some people actually do say that about some of these nootropic drugs these race attempt type drugs Is that they promote a sort of autistic type mentality? Yeah Like you know when you take like What are those concentration drugs But it just makes you like I'm gonna clean my whole whole apartment now. Like, Medafinil or Pro Vigil or Adderall? Yeah, like the Adderall. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, people do it to get high, but I'm like, damn, it makes you get shit done. Yeah. So, did you ever go back and do more of it as research? Yeah, yeah. I went back to China again and went to a different series of labs. It was a different project. Then I was sort of interested in this disconnect between drug pricing and the raw material cost of drugs, because everyone post-Martin Shkreli

is aware of this enormous disparity between the pharmaceutical cost of a drug and the actual raw material cost. And there are so many glaring examples of that. The one, the drug Deriprim that Martin Shkreli was selling became kind of the publicly discussed one, but I was interested in a cancer chemotherapy agent called lenalidomide that's used to treat multiple myeloma.

And again, it's the same deal where it was, you know, financially crippling for a lot of people with cancer, but it's so cheap and made in such abundance that when I was visiting these labs, they were like, oh, here's a free sample. And the free sample is, you know, enough to treat several people for the rest of their lives. Really? Yeah.

It's gonna cost them nothing. Yeah. That's so interesting. I heard he was on this podcast Legion of Skanks, which is whatever, which is like fun and shit. But he was like, you know there was a generic version of that drug that I gouged everybody on, so like anyone could get what they needed for like pennies.

Really? Yeah, it was like, it's like Viagra, and he's like, you know, there's like a no name Viagra that's like way cheaper. But he goes, that's what mine. It was just like, it was just the designer, you know, there's like a no-name Viagra. That's like way cheaper, but he goes that's what mine it was just like it was just the Designer drug well there could have been one. I don't know that there was it was off patent There could have been a generic and that's part of it

Like I actually am not maybe that's what he's maybe that's what he meant. Yeah, it's like then just you could just make that Yeah, I mean that's part of the whole issue is that There's something a tiny bit disingenuous about the way that I was approaching this issue because it's very easy to make that case of like wait a second this person's paying an enormous amount of money for this drug and the raw material cost is very low what's going on here and the reality of course is that the cost is associated with covering research and development

and and any time a pharmaceutical company develops a drug that doesn't succeed, they have to somehow overcome those losses to continue doing research and development. And there is a little bit of complexity in the production and creation of these drugs that it's not totally fair. I mean, this also has to do with their totally fucked up medical system and insurance and so many different factors that it's not good to oversimplify it. But I was interested in this one example,

just because I think a lot of people aren't aware. It was like a big thing with the Martin Shkreli drug, Daraprim, where a lot of chemists, myself included, would show how easy it is to make this drug. And again, it's sort of disingenuous because yes, it is easy to make, but what are we expecting people to make it themselves? They're not going to do that. And then even when I get this free sample of this drug, lenalidomide, from the factory,

then what, do I give this to someone with cancer and say, oh, you get a milligram sensitive scale, and it's- Yeah, but then it's like, all right, how about 20 bucks? You know, it's like, forget like two cents, but like, there's a middle range of like, well, let me package this for you. Oh yeah, I mean- So like like so a chemist can get paid some and a pharmacist pharmacist can get paid some and then it just like it goes up a little but not to like 20,000 and

ideally insurance and our tax money would cover it in such a way that whatever it does cost it's not a burden for the sick person to bear. I can't get started on American insurance. Yeah. It's like a, I just, I hate thinking about it. Hey, can I ask you a question? Yeah. I wanna finish up China, but something I've never been able,

I wanna talk about fentanyl. I never got the answer on where this shit comes from, and I realized that maybe you know. Yeah. I thought it was, at first it was cartels fucking with other cartels and their stash but then I was like how would anybody know? I heard it was cutting but I'm like why would you cut

with like a death drug and then also there's this weird thing of like a cop had one grain on his shoulder had to go to the hospital and other guys are fully snorting straight lines of fentanyl. It's like these stories don't,, like something's off in this. And they go with their tolerance. Like how do you go from one grain will kill you, how do you get your tolerance that much

from one grain will kill you to snorting full lines? There is no A meets X meets Y on that. What is it? Oh yeah, yeah, I mean that's just, okay, well a few questions there. The tolerance one is that opioids really do produce a remarkable tolerance in habitual users. And it is genuinely the case that someone who's been using opioids for years and has

a high tolerance can use a quantity of fentanyl that would be deadly many times over for a non-tolerant user. Okay. And with fentanyl in particular, it's actually, it's weird, people always talk about the potency of fentanyl, but they don't talk about the duration of it. It's a very short duration drug. That's why in terms of the medical preparations,

there are always like a transdermal patch that allows continuous release into the bloodstream or a lollipop that you Keep in your mouth so that it's continuously being released if you just snort a fent. Yeah fentanyl lollipops, yeah, the brand name actique Brand name. Yeah, what what? Yeah, where do you? Get that it's used for breakthrough cancer pain. It's not a, yeah, yeah. I mean, fentanyl is a very important medicine.

It has a terrible name, but it's kind of a extremely useful way of managing pain in cancer, and it's used in anesthesia as well. So where's it coming from? So this was a sort of inevitability because with heroin, in order to make it, you need poppies.

You don't need poppies, but it... Like you said, they wanna start with as much base probably as possible. Yeah, yeah. So it's just a one-step chemical reaction from the morphine in poppies to heroin. It's a very easy transformation. It doesn't even really need to be done, but the diacetylation makes it stronger.

And this means it has to be produced in a region of the world that has these poppies. There's all kinds of complexity introduced, although it does make the chemistry aspect easier. And this really has been going on for a long time, really picked up during World War II. There was a huge initiative, particularly in Germany, to find synthetic opioids that weren't dependent

on any kind of natural product in order to produce. And that's where you get methadone and Demerol and a lot of these synthetic opioids that aren't being made that way. And then that kind of opened the door that it doesn't need to have a chemical similarity to morphine in order to exert the same type of effect. You can have completely synthetic compounds

that are far stronger than morphine or heroin that are easier to produce because of just being fully synthetic products. And out of that, I mean, opioids are such valuable medicines and have been for such a long time that there has been a huge amount of scientific research dedicated to exploring the different types of structures that exert that kind of activity.

And of course, there's been this eternal search for an opioid that doesn't produce addiction, which hasn't gone all that well. And so in the context of this, there was a medicinal chemist named Paul Jansen. He was the one that discovered fentanyl and it was a really amazing discovery because this is a chemically somewhat simple substance that is way, way stronger than morphine or heroin or anything like that and can be produced easily and has great medical properties. But those same features that made it attractive from a medical perspective also made it attractive

from a recreational perspective. And it was an inevitability that someone would start making this in underground labs. It's just too easy to make and too potent and the profit margin is so enormous that there's no way to prevent it okay sure and then how does it go from how's it never raised coke well that's the other there's so many and, how is it not in anybody's Coke in Berlin? In London.

Yeah. I'm not sure how much cocaine actually contained. I've heard these reports. Coke, Molly, all of it. You know what I mean? It's in our powder and press powder, and it's not in anyone in Europe's. One possibility is cross-contamination.

If someone who's selling drugs is dealing with fentanyl, some fentanyl could get into the other drugs There's one possibility other more nefarious Possibility is that they're intentionally introducing it to make these other drugs more addictive because if you have cocaine that also contains fentanyl Then it will be more addictive people buy more of it. So it wasn't to cut it Because also like it kind of does the opposite of coke, right? So none of it makes sense to me. Yeah, I'm not sure how frequently that happens. I think it does happen occasionally,

but the other thing is that when a drug gains a status as the evil danger drug, then people start blaming it for problems without evidence. So I've often spoken with people and they say, oh, someone I know died of a fentanyl overdose. And I say, that's terrible, how So you know I've often spoken with people and they say oh you know someone I know died of a fentanyl overdose and I say like that's terrible how do you know and they'll say oh well they they were using opioids and they died. And we used to have ODs. Yeah yeah people you know 20 years ago people just like it's because you partied too hard. Yeah people can and do overdose on

heroin or morphine or whatever. Yeah. It's very much possible to overdose on most opioids of that nature. It's when everyone at a party dies. That's when it's like, oh, hold up. Yeah, this is not to say that people don't die from fentanyl. They absolutely do, but it has attained the status as the drug that causes death. So people without evidence will attribute

any drug overdose to fentanyl and in doing so, enhance the reputation of this drug without real evidence for it playing any causal role in the death. That's one aspect. Because also I know there's like, I've tested bags that we'd already done and then you get a tester kit You know if something old or whatever and you get a tester kit and test it you're like, oh shit

It's got fentanyl in here. But like I but I've been doing this stuff So like where's my death? You've had that happen Yeah like a bag of drugs that we've already been in and then with all the danger now like we got to start testing our stuff and Like well, let's test stuff that we know is safe because we've already done it. And then it turns out not safe, but there's also that disconnect of, a grain is supposed to kill you and we've been doing it and it has fentanyl in it.

Right, and then there's also this uncertainty because the tests are. The tests are tests that you can fuck up with extra. And the repurposed urine test strips that were never intended for that type of analysis. And there's sometimes cross- cross reactivity with other substances. It kind of would depend. And again, because of prohibition, analytical services are very difficult to access for

most people in the United States and other countries like Spain. It's much, much easier and unrestricted. But in the US, yeah, most people just depend on these like colorimetric reagent test kits or urine test strips or things like that that are maybe better than nothing but not something I would depend on. Also, if you put too much water in, then it's like everything test positive, like an extra drop. Really?

Yeah, or the serum, whatever it is. And then you're like, no, you got to put in less. And then you're like, oh, it's safe. And you're like, well, no way. I don't trust this now. You know? But also I heard, I heard, the reason I brought it up with you was

because I heard a, like a, I thought of a story that Biden was meeting with the Chinese president, and he was like, all right, let's discuss trade, let's discuss whatever, I don't know whatever, and he goes, hey, last thing, you gotta cut it out with the fentanyl. And then the guy said, yeah right, let's discuss trade. Let's discuss whatever. I don't know whatever. And he goes, hey, last thing. You got to cut it out with the fentanyl. And then the guy said, yeah, I'll work on it.

Which made me go, oh, yeah, I thought it was coming from the cartels and not from China. But this makes me think maybe. Well, the cartels would probably be getting precursors from China or elsewhere. I mean, this is the thing. It's like it doesn't, it is China because it's cheap and easy, but then once it becomes less cheap and less easy, it will become somewhere else. It will become India or Czechoslovakia.

So they're not dosing our drugs. They're just like manufacturing at a request. China. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's kind of, I've even seen that. I think there's an Adam Curtis documentary that kind of alludes to that possibility. Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's kind of I've even seen that. I think there's an Adam Curtis documentary that kind of alludes to that possibility. He's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. This is some kind of like revenge for the opium wars. And I don't think so. I don't think that there's some kind of because then it would have been England. They were the opium war people. Yeah. And but they're all have safe shit. And we are. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's not an answer. But in terms of the cop stuff, I don't think it's real. What's right? I think I mean, you know, there's the placebo effect. And

then there's the nocebo effect, which is like the negative version of the placebo effect, which is very, very real. And you have noce... Nocebo. Nocebo. Like that. Yeah. Actually, I maybe even talked about this with Joe Rogan, and I think he maybe mentioned you with finasteride,

with Propecia. Pair and stuff, uh-huh. And they've even done a study with Propecia where they took two groups of men, one group they informed about side effects, and the other one they didn't. And unsurprisingly, the group that was primed to be concerned about side effects experienced more severe side effects. Yeah it's like you got to do it

in a like in a vacuum almost when I was taking some like some depression medication and I just didn't read about any side effects and then I was trying to fuck my girlfriend and I just couldn't come. And then it was like three times in a row, I'm like, I don't know what's going on. And she read the box and she was like, oh hey, it's this. Which makes me think, oh it's real, because I didn't know about it at all.

If it was an SSRI, it's definitely real. Yeah, right, but it's like, it wasn't me imagining it because I wasn't even aware that it existed until after the effects. But then like, they said like finasteride in the placebo re-grew hair in like a third of the patients Really? Yeah, and like you're just getting a sugar pill. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I mean these affect these

effects of expectation are incredibly powerful and It's very difficult to medically control from this is actually a big thing in this MDMA very difficult to medically control from this is actually a big thing in this MDMA trial where in psychedelic research in general, where it's harder to placebo control because the drugs have such prominent psychoactive effects that both the therapist and the patient tend not always there actually are exceptions, but they tend to know that they have taken an active substance or not taken an active substance. You're saying you really got to dose people. You can't tell a chemist that. Um, um, yeah.

Rogan thinks and I'm not disagreeing with them that like the finasteride led, led to my deepest depression, but it's also like, I couldn't isolate it from like a wife leaving me and like a bunch of other stuff and Just like people get depression Yeah, and hair loss and the idea of it is depressing to people is that too there's it's not like a a delightful Experience to be like nice. Yeah, by some part of my body is dysfunctioning and I'm taking a weird Yeah, that hormonal medication that is frightening in order to address this problem. It was actively a failure in comedy too.

Like, this thing's all, like it's not, nothing's isolated in this. Yeah, yeah. So, and of course it's not to say that it's all nocebo or that nobody experiences these side effects, it's just that there are these complicated effects of expectation, and with these comps, they're hearing nothing

but the worst of the worst. They have this whole internal mythology surrounding drugs, things like PCP, they distribute manuals that only serve to heighten the fears associated with it. And I think this is like, and then this trickles out into the culture. The cops speak to journalists, the journalists uncritically repeat what the cops have told them people uncritically read what the journalists have repeated from the cops and suddenly you think

that people consuming PCP have superhuman strength. Yep that was always the thing. So they told us we were in like grade school and jump out of a out of a like a like a third story building and be fine. Yeah, yeah. Or Rodney King was on PCP so they had to beat him up because. Superhuman strength.

Yeah. And it becomes a justification for police brutality because if you are promoting an idea that a drug gives people superhuman strength, then some very serious force is warranted. These are people that can tear open handcuffs and tear car doors off their hinges. So you really have to be very careful.

But it- And if you're a cop who's read that, if he's not using it evilly, but like, I'm scared. This guy's just took a super power pill. Yeah, but of course the issue is that it's not true. Right. So then it's, and whether or not the cops truly believe it, I think in many instances they do,

because that is part of the culture of kind of vigilance and fear that is so prominent in law enforcement. And so with fentanyl, it's like, it is a very potent drug and it is somewhat frightening. And if you don't know that much about pharmacology or toxicology and you just hear that stuff is so many thousand times more potent than morphine and then you see a bag of some white powder and you start to feel a little weird, it's very easy to freak yourself out and think that you're dying.

And then if that happens then you're kind of heroic as well because you just in the line of duty you just were poisoned trying to keep America's youth safe is a good story. It promotes caution. So there's a lot of incentive to promote ideas like that even if they're not true. Right, right, right. This is why every time like you fuck some skank, you're like the next day, you're like,

that itch is something that can't just be because I didn't shower this morning. That's got to be some disease. Yeah. And then for like three, four full weeks, you're like, well, I have everything. But why is it all our stuff suddenly? It wasn't around like six years ago. Well, again, these have to do with complicated market factors. So there was this change in medical attitudes toward opioids that is largely attributed to the effects of Purdue and the

Sacklers where and I actually think that they're endlessly attacked by journalists and really everyone, but I think that there is a case to be made for liberal prescription of opioids. Like, I'm not so into the idea of being prevented from accessing drugs that I want to use. I don't like the idea that I'm not going to be allowed to consume drugs for my own safety in general. So on that level, I'm a little bit hesitant

to wag my finger at somebody for allowing me to access drugs. Of course, it's more complicated than that. Yeah, I would just like, like if I'm getting even like a Vicodin for a tooth, like a tooth surgery or something, there's still a warning, like hey, don't drive on this. Like you might get super tired. A bit of a warning with whatever that Purdue drug was

that they're making movies about. Oxycontin. Yeah, a bit of a warning. Instead of suggesting it to my friend and my dad and all these people, I take that. I'm like, dude, no. Take Aspen first and then Vicodin and then get on that shit.

Yeah, it was overprescribed without question. But one unintended consequence of this was that journalists loved the story. This was like an addictive drug for the journalists, was shaming the Sackler family, because it's a perfect story. They're rich also. They're rich, totally unsympathetic,

totally without risk to criticize them, and you look good doing it. You're standing up against the people who died against these evil billionaires. So everyone kept drumming the story, and the New York Times would write these things. They would say internal documents from Purdue show that they were aware that oxycodone was an addictive drug. And it's like, well, of course they were. Are you kidding me?

Like, how is this even remotely surprising? So I thought the way that it was being covered was kind of nuts. And but so Purdue's under all this pressure, they reformulate oxycodone in an abuse deterrent tablet that can't be crushed or injected. So suddenly all these people that are dependent on crushing and injecting or snorting oxycodone can't really do it anymore and they shift to other sources of opioids in order to achieve the high.

And this creates a market for fentanyl. Purdue is still blamed for it, but it's a little weird to say it's still your fault for making the oxycodone less abusable. Right, because the people who are already on it were like, well now we're going to start something, but they're I guess less addicting, they're getting less new patients or customers. And then there's a major crackdown on opioids, there's all these lawsuits and then people still want opioids. But 2021 the media was fully saturated with stories about Purdue and the Sacklers and Oxycontin and the opioid epidemic. There probably wasn't a person alive who hadn't encountered those stories and yet more people

died of drug overdoses than any other year in history. And so the idea that it's as simple as, this is what happens when you liberally allow people to access drugs, doesn't really capture the reality that there are all these social factors like COVID and kind of. Like I'm bored as fuck. Isolation. We're showing drugs. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

And I'm alone, social isolation, disintegration, lack of community. I think COVID was never the most amount of Mali use in business meetings. Cause it was like, it's like a 3pm meeting. I'm so bored until then. I'm like, well, I'll take it at 2.30. It won't kick in till after the meeting.

Push them back at 30 minutes and then you're fucked. Interesting. Yeah, and then, so then what happened is in the wake of that, manufacturers of other potentially abusable drugs, particularly stimulants, decided, alright, well we don't want to get sued, we don't want the same scrutiny, we just will not make them as available. Of course there's also pressure from the DEA. And now the result is that Adderall and Ritalin are totally unavailable. Like, for years they have been completely,

they're so unavailable that there are companies in the Philippines that will call pharmacies trying to find one that has any available because it's like a full-time job. I know a pharmacist who said that people break down crying because they're spending all of their time just trying to find one pharmacy that has Ritalin for their children.

What, really? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, when they say over-prescribed, it's like, that's like, it, it, it, like, what was it? Connotatively means it's all bad. And it it it like connotatively means It's all bad. It also means take away our freedom. We can we are not allowed we shouldn't

But it's also like but sometimes it's good, right? It's just like if it goes too far. It's like sure but like You know and like, you know, these things are complicated I want to put it all into the ballpark of personal responsibility, but that's a big part of it that never gets acknowledged. No one ever says, like, well, you know, you do play a role in decisions. Yeah, chill, you shouldn't drink too much. Stop drinking this week.

Yeah. Like, you're a grownup, get in control. Yeah. Yeah, you're saying they're all pussies, I get it. Ha ha. Ha ha. All right, well, the China part is over. So I think the podcast, we should wrap it up.

That is interesting though. I gotta look at this rock opera. Yeah, check it out. Yeah, it's so funny and it only existed because you needed to get access to a fucking Chinese fucking pharmaceutical company. Yeah, and they loved it. They got the show of their lives.

They were so. Did you get any feedback on them watching the rock opera? They thought it was spectacular. They actually said to him, you are a true artist. Wow. What's the rock opera on? Like, where can you watch it? You can watch it in this piece on YouTube.

On Vice? Yeah. He also, I think think has released some albums for anyone that wants to hear Matt Bowden's music. Really? And he's released a different rock opera that may even include some of this footage. Wow.

It's so weird when somebody's way into one thing and then way, way into another thing. Yes. You know? Videos, damn. I mean, I'm not gonna... First of all, we need more rock operas. Yeah.

And just in general. What is that? He's the edge of a volcano. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's so funny. Is that the place? No. That was one of the places.

Really? Yep. Then they were primarily manufacturing actually a hair loss drug. Really? Yeah. Yeah, the hair loss is depression and boner issues. Those are the big ones.

Oh yeah, yeah, huge. we're we're talking about it finasteride or the other one whatever and in the comedy store and we're walking by just talking about it me and maybe Ryan or Neil and well like Whitney Cummings and she was like no it's true I've had guys have like problems getting boners and they've been taken and I was like yeah but you got small tits also. You can't isolate is what I'm saying. It's not anymore though. Wow, that's so cool. Where else do you want to go? What's on your radar of places to go? Oh, I mean, anywhere that there's a interesting chemical world, I would like to, I mean, I'm just interested in other stuff. Like I would like to go back to Madagascar

and do more work looking at different fungi. I mean, there's just a crazy world of unknown stuff out there. Yeah. Is that you? That's me. God, you're young. When, that was, all right, it was like 10, 12 years there. Yeah. Like, is that you? That's me. God, you're young. When that's all right. It was like 10, 12 years ago. Yeah.

I was looking at how young you looked. I didn't know it was Roman Centaur. Nice. Madagascar. Have you ever been to the Amazon and looked at their usage stuff? Yeah, yeah. It's wild when they show, when you go to some farm, can we show you what some plants do?

Yeah. And then they're like, this is for back pain, this is for, and you're like, this is for whatever it's called, blood flow, and then you just slap it against yourself, and then you just get tingling for like 20 minutes, and you're like, what the fuck is this? I said that to Rogan, he was like,

everybody goes and research this stuff down there. Because it was like this idea that maybe they actually cultivated usable things, and then kinda got wiped out, and everything, birds just kinda moved them around. These? Usable drugs. Oh.

From like 1,000 years ago. Oh yeah, I mean that's like most of the drugs that are commonly used are derived from some kind of natural product. That's been the tactic from the beginning. And even these things like fentanyl, it's part of this kind of long path of modification and seeing how a natural structure can be altered in order to accentuate

certain effects. This is the case with most psychedelics as well. Like all the psychedelics that I've made, you're kind of starting from psilocin or psilocybin or DMT or something like that. And you strain it pretty much and then... You modify it structurally, yeah. Wow. The coolest one was they were like this for period cramps. Oh.

And then they were like, how did you people know that? You know, they're like, this one was for a venom antidote for a snake. Like, how you know? Like, we'll look at it and it looks like a fucking split tongue. Oh, like what? And then it's like, yeah, it's telling, it's like it's speaking to us. Yeah, there's a term that's called the doctrine of signatures. What is that? That's the idea that a medicine resembles

what it is treating. So if you're having testicle problems, you have an orchid because it's testicular in its character. But then it's like, if it was cultivated, however long ago, they're like, well, make it look this way too. Yeah, get the most. Yeah, like the putting red dye in like strawberry soda.

You know, it will taste strawberry without it. But the coolest one was period cramps, and like how did you know? And he like turned it over, and the leaf looks like it's been dipped in blood halfway. It's wild, I'll show you a picture of it. It's nuts. And you're like, what?

Did you plant this? It goes, no, they're everywhere. We took this ethnobotanist down there. It was so cool anyway Alright Hamilton, thanks. That's the fucking seems amazing. Thank you. What a fun trip So how'd you lose all the footage that sucks so it never came out one of them Of the three times I went to film in these Chinese labs one of the trips the footage was lost Okay, but you still got your story the rock opera stuffs on YouTube. Okay. Yeah What are you working on now? What are you doing these days? I have a podcast that is mostly about drug chemistry and I

Was just making new psychedelics for years. I'm trying to transfer that research to a new lab at the moment. But that was it. I was just focused on creating as many new psychedelic drugs as possible. Why'd you get into psychedelics? You seem from, and are you just?

Who's that guy from San Francisco that was all into just vegetables And then he was like, I should research mushrooms too. I don't know why I didn't. Vegetable guy. He was like a, like a food grower, like researcher, for decades and decades. And then he was like, why have I not looked into mushrooms? If I'm into the potency of jalapenos and everything else. Yeah. You know, I'm very very well known I think it's from the Bay not Paul Stanitz maybe no

no no that's the that's the no no that guy looks like a mushroom he's a he's he's more culinary and then he's just- Oh, Michael Pollan? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did you get from just like scientists to, you know, cool? No, it was in the opposite direction. I was interested in drugs. And then it's kind of like people that are very into music

often become musicians because in order to fully understand music, you play an instrument you record music you understand all the intricacy so it's kind of if you're really interested in drugs you kind of have to learn chemistry. Wow, interesting. Are there any cool new ones coming? Yeah there are yeah I mean this is because in this legalization medical medicalization movement, there's been an influx of funding to study psychedelic drugs that never existed previously. Like I've been doing chemistry related to psychedelics for 13 years or 14 years. And

before 2021, I think it was maybe like, the cumulative funding that I received was one $4,000 grant from Tim Ferriss. Like the government certainly wasn't giving us money. Like it wasn't happening. And then suddenly there's like an enormous amount of support to do the research and it has been really good. It has resulted in the creation of an enormous number of support to do the research and it has been really good. It has resulted in the creation

of an enormous number of new drugs. That's great. I love also Tim Ferriss is like known for the most part as this like how to get your work done guy, but he's just a fucking hippie at his heart. He's just a fucking, yeah, I want people to just drug safely at festivals. Yeah, he's a believer.

Have a good time. He's a real mensch. Yeah, he's a real. Have a good time. He's a real mensch. Yeah, he's a real mensch. Yeah, it's just surprising when you get somebody from that world being cool. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, Instagram, you can follow Hamilton Morris.

If you can't spell that, you shouldn't listen to this podcast. It's an easy one. Who's that guy? I was trying to prevent the DEA from prohibiting these psychedelics and was selling the DEA is a terrorist organization T-shirt. So it's just a friend of mine who's modeling the DEA

is a terrorist organization shirt. Nice. Dude, this was really cool. That sounds like a fun trip too. Did you have any fun time while you were there or is it just the research and come home? I thought the whole thing was extremely fun. I mean I love this stuff. It's immensely fun for me to see any of this stuff. Nice. Yeah that's so funny.

I'll pass right but you know uh like Obey Giant campaign? Yeah. And one of the ideas was like you just put the stencil or someone, a fan will put a stencil up somewhere. It'll just Andre the Giant. Yeah. And it'll should make you look at your surroundings in a way you haven't. Or like you're passing by and you're like, oh, there's that giant, you know, Andre the Giant guy. Like what is this building it's on? I pass this every day at work on the way to work. Like what is this? And it's like, oh, it's a t-shirt factory. You're like, oh, I never thought about it. Yeah.

I've never thought of Shanghai in China as a manufacturing. Like that's not my Shanghai at all. Yeah. It's the cauldron from which so much emerges. Yeah I'll see it now when I go back. I'll be aware of it. Damn.

All right. Well that's it. Thank you, I love the conversation. Yeah. Damn. All right. Well, that's it. Thank you. I love the conversation. Yeah, that was really cool. That helped me get to the bottom of fentanyl. All of us, like drug users, are like, what's going on? And we're not getting any real answers.

Yeah. Campaign for legal testing in the United States and policy reforms so that this isn't an issue because it's not necessary. It doesn't need to be this way. You ever done fentanyl? Like straight? I have under a medical context.

When I was having a colonoscopy, they used fentanyl. Wow, yeah, that doesn't go with this idea. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, I'm not super into opioids. It's not really my vibe. Yeah, but I mean, I'm not super into opioids. It's not really my vibe. Yeah, me neither. Austin used to be a big pill town, like 15 years ago. I dated some chick, you could put a pill in her hand and she could tell you the dosage and what it was.

But, they were cool back then. All right, you got any travel tips in general? Travel tips in general. Pack light is one a lot of people do. Have a good toiletries bag. Pack light is a good one. How do you get drugs around? I mean going to a factory that is manufacturing them

is a decent tactic. Yeah. Yeah. Actually I mean that is a. Yeah. Kind of a sample of what you're doing here. Under the pretense of doing a story on it. Skateboarders get acid around by taking off their trucks and putting a tab or two in there, then putting the trucks back on.

No dogs tested looking for fucking acid. I weirdly I did actually see that in a dog a drug sniffing dog Training kit there was an LSD Training no, I don't think they ever use it. I was very surprised to see this. That's the number one drug I have no maybe we'd have on me by accident in a place where to be really bad. Yeah I like I'll take two credits like oh fuck, I had three hits in here. Could have been bad. All right, thanks, Hamilton. I appreciate it.

Guys, follow him at Hamilton Morris on Instagram. He's got a Patreon page where he is, all right, what do you do here? Ubermensch, mensch, Luftmensch. Oh yeah, definitely Jewish. Sorry, I didn't realize before. Cool, how often do you put out episodes on here? Three times a month.

Nice, that's the right, that's the right. Give yourself a month off, a week off. Cool buddy, thank you, it was nice to meet you. Good to meet you. Yeah, alright everybody, goodbye. Okay guys, that is the episode. What's it called? Stained Glasses from the Russell Hotel in East

Nashville. Yeah they gave away the condo. Headliners don't stay at the condo anymore in Nashville. Did you know that? Yeah they put up the side room people there now. It's one of the best condos in comedy because of the location. It's right across the street. It's right across the street and the neighborhoods got better. I was there fighting for it when it was a crap neighborhood. And now they got that one thrift store. They got the coffee shop with a good pour over that Adrian added milk to and was very embarrassing to all of us.

They were like, well, I never and the guy was like, no, I mean, it's up to your choice. However you want to do it. I gotta go meet Nate. But anyway, yeah The little park right there I took bandit to a bunch of times Anyway But I'm in East Nashville now, it's focusing the positives and I got to do a cool new thing I saw a band yesterday at the Janes or something the deltas with a Z

How was that? The Jane? Something like that. Janes Hideaway. Pretty good show, The Deltas. Pretty good show. That's the episode everybody. I hope you enjoyed it. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and if you're watching leave a comment on YouTube these episodes are made better by watching it's different than most podcasts where it's negligible the difference is pretty massive Alan Caffey who edited this expertly puts in the pictures that the guests have video sometimes from all the episodes he also does sound effects which is fun who did that was that Chad or was that Alan when uh bro whoever's watching I love it when you take I see it in the comments sometimes I try to

get in the comments for a couple days when a Gaffigan was like this they made It's so stupid. I love it. I love it. Oh my God. Do China is rules. I was I went to the Daily Wire yesterday to go do up somebody's pocket. Michael Knowles. They're wild over there. They're really stuck into their own talking points the same way.

The left wing things are stuck into their talking points it's just funny it's like you hear stuff you're like that's a 25 year ago study that's not real anymore he's a cool guy but like those talking points are all like the same they're all quoting the same like research and stuff but cool people very welcoming but yeah I mean the world is so much better nobody's fighting nobody's really fighting stay positive everybody that's the message is a shirt that you can get right now at rechevier.com the stay positive shirt I believe that RIPIP Fidelberg shirts are all gone.

I may be wrong. I only made 30 of those on purpose because really they were just for Fidelberg at KFC. Yoni Fidelberg. Rest in peace. If you saw my special, you know what I'm talking about. Ari Chauffeur's America's Sweetheart on Netflix right now. Have you seen it?

State till the end. The closer is the thing. I mean, I'm telling you, I've never seen a Hasidic guy laugh that hard as when I was doing that closing joke. He was fine the whole time but when I was doing that closing joke he was dying. You can hear him going it was like an oh my the fuck is is the world. China fucking rules everybody and Hamilton this is I've already been quoting this episode even though wasn't out yet as a reason

To watch To listen to this podcast it is first of all I got through Hamilton from your suggestions You guys put it out there on the YouTube One it helps the algorithm, but to helps me know me know who to book. Hamilton Morris, you said? So I got him, China. I think you even said, yeah, I think he went to China. So fucking great, I've admired his work. Not all of it, but a lot of it from afar for a while.

Don't forget to check out the Hamilton Morris podcast or sign up for his Patreon, patreon.com slash Hamilton Morris. I myself, for the UB Trippin' podcast, have almost raised enough money where we achieved our goal, where we can send someone around the world. So it's going to be soon to start looking for who that is. Maybe it's you. I've been reading your postcards.

Some with Sagalo, a couple of episodes with Ryan O'Neal. Patreon.com slash UB Trippin. But it might wrap up soon, I don't know. Anyway, but yeah, I said listen, I went to China, it was a completely different trip to China than Hamilton Morris. Hamilton Morris went to China, all he wanted to do, I was telling this guy the other day, Azad,

I was like all he wanted to do in China was go to drug labs, right? I didn't go to any drug labs So his China is way different than my China my China was the first like foreign place I've been like I was like, oh my god, this is crazy. I just want to get out and try the food Hamilton's like like you heard him in this like kind of eat the food of the hotel. It's what it wasn't my thing I just wanted to see what the drug labs are like. I the hotel it wasn't my thing. I just wanted to see what the drug labs are like. I mean fucking cool. So it's different and then I usually compare it to like my Paris was a writing class with growth pots. Tim Dillon's Paris is probably gonna be food related. Jim Jefferies'

Hookers. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if any of them have been to Paris. But I know I've been to Paris. But the point is, everybody's trip to a place is different and I'm not interested in this podcast and getting like what sort of do in that place. It's what you did in the place, what your experience was. You be trippin'.

Is that the name of the podcast? It is. So anyway guys, that's it. Today's episode was produced by Your Mom's House Network. They do a great fucking job. They do a great fucking job. And that's it. I am on tour right now. All new material from America's Sweetheart in case you're wondering. Although in Denver I'm doing a Greatest Hits Week, which will include maybe one bit from America's Sweetheart. But write in your favorite bits of mine, even if you can't be there, write them in,

so because I get to start the first day and then I'm gonna take suggestions from people. But here's my road gigs, Adrian will be with me in some of the places. Fucking Luca. I hope you OD on Ozempic. I hope you OD on Ozempic. They're good again.

San Antonio this week, not with Ari Matty. He had to go do a Killers of Kill Tony show. I gotta find out who's gonna open for me. Tampa, Florida with Steve Simone. Denver, Colorado with Colum Tiro. I'm doing a great hits week, he's doing his own material. Schaumburg, Illinois, Atlanta, and Portland, all with Adrian Apoluchi.

Then San Jose, Orlando, Fort Lauderdale Seattle Vancouver Calgary Edmonton that's all takes us through to a middle of April and then early April and then Anchorage Alaska in June as my final show on this tour I will not be touring for 2026 I will not be touring for the rest of 2025 if you don't see me here you won't see me and if I'm coming to one of these cities I'm not gonna be back there in 2027 either so what are we in 2025 it's me three plus years since you see me I would get a ticket shows are added already in Vancouver Calgary

Edmonton the first shows sold out show added in Orlando show added in Fort Lauderdale and show added in Portland, tickets are selling well. Uh, that's it you guys until next week. I'm definitely forgetting to tell you something and I don't remember what it is, please subscribe. Um, Oh, buy some merch.

Are you sure? Your.com. Okay. Bye. Next week, Israel with Jeffrey Osmas. That's going to be a fun one. To celebrate the peace accord. We're done everybody. Palestinians and Jews, now that they signed a piece of paper, are mortal friends. Enemies no longer. That's right. Mortal friends. They signed a paper. Word is bond. Mortal friends, Palestinians and Jews.

And anyone who wanted to co-op that fight and said, hey, well, I wanna weigh in, I'm really upset about this. I'm really sad, piece of court, so it's all good. They've been cool with it, so you have to be cool with it, too. It's like me and Bert, you'd be a fool. You'd be a fool right now to still be mad about me and Bert and the way he acted that whole time, the way he pushed out I'm saying no leave him alone now it's over I've forgiven him so you need to move on I've forgiven Bobby Lee for not fighting

back who else probably a lot of people I've forgiven all of them for not handling it the right right way so Palestinians and Jews and anyone who made that their cause you got to move on too. It's over. And it will be fully over next week on Monday when Jeffrey Osmond takes the stage on UB Trippin. See you next week! What was this one? China. Thanks for tuning in.

Shesher. I do know that word. Shesher.