You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - Thrust – Herbie Hancock

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

Herbie Hancock's Thrust (1974) is one of the most influential jazz-funk records ever made. Peter Martin and Adam Maness break down the full album, track-by-track: Mike Clark's displaced backbeats, why Paul Jackson is such an unusual bass player and possibly the greatest Rhodes solo of all time. Plus - Adam shares a story about learning "Spank-A-Lee" at 16, and Peter tells us about meeting Paul Jackson for the first time. And ... is "Actual Proof" ACTUALLY the best track on the album?-------------------------------Start your free Open Studio trial for ALLLLL your jazz lesson needs:https://openstudiojazz.com/yhi------------------------------Maiden Voyage: https://youtu.be/ZQ6ICxe2wjEHead Hunters: https://youtu.be/wM-_44deuSY------------------------------About You'll Hear It:In this popular music series, Adam and Peter break down the greatest albums of all time. Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Joni Mitchell, D'Angelo: Jazz is the foundation of the most GENIUS music in recent history. These seasoned jazz pianists bring their deep musical knowledge to every joyful episode to help you hear the hidden qualities that make music AMAZING. You'll never hear music the same way again.-------------------------------Sign up for the You'll Read It newsletter for little known stories about the artists you love:https://youllhearit.com/newsletter-------------------------------00:00 Thrust - Herbie Hancock00:30 Herbie Before Thrust: Miles & The Headhunters03:01 Drummer Mike Clark Joins the Band03:35 🎧 "Palm Grease"11:10 Why Paul Jackson Was So Unusual13:07 🎧 "Actual Proof"24:23 Our Relationship to Thrust29:57 🎧 "Butterfly"38:34 Peter's Paul Jackson Story43:02 🎧 "Spank-A-Lee"52:47 Categories: Desert Island Tracks, Apex Moments, Snobometer57:09 The MOST Controversial Moment in YHI History

drummer Mike Clark says that when he auditioned for Herbie Hancock's Headhunter's band, he was playing like Tony Williams. Herbie caught him and said, Tony's my best friend. If I wanted him, I'd call him. I want to see what you're all about. He did, and he got the gig. In the studio, the producer wanted one rhythm,

but the band wanted another. They had one shot to make history. This is Thrust. I'm Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the U.S. You'll hear it podcast. Music, Explore.

Explore birthday day by Open Studio. Go to Open Studio Jazz for, oh! You jazz lesson needs, Peter, it's a big day for me. It's a big day for me, too. Don't worry, buddy. It's a bigger, maybe a bigger day for me? Well, don't try to out-big my day, but yeah, no, it's a big day for you. It's a big day.

We are talking about Herbie Hancock's 1974. Incredible, funk recording, thrust. Oh, my God. Peter, this journey starts in a much more straightforward way. In fact, it starts in a much more straight-ahead context. It starts with Seven Steps to Heaven. That's a young Herbie Hancock, making his introduction with the great Miles Davis on Seven Steps to Heaven. Incredible album.

Herbie split that album with pianist Victor Feldman, who actually wrote Seven Steps to Heaven, but Herbie is the pianist playing on the track, which is interesting. And while all this was going on, he made major bangers. had hits like Canterlope Island. Ooh. Never heard of it? Now, Herbie went on a whole journey with Miles. He was in Miles' band for quite a while,

went out on his own, did some things that we've talked about here on this podcast, M. Wandishi, a bunch of great music. And then, in the early 70s, he decided to get something together that was completely different and started a band called The Headhunters, which kicked off with this. This is from their debut self-titled album, Headhunters, 1973. Harvey Mason's about to get activated.

Harvey Mason. Bam. We know it. So he was already kind of a hitmaker, but now he's a hitmaker. So that first self-titled Headhunters album, which we've talked about in the show before, was a huge hit, a monster hit for Herbie. I think the biggest success he had had up to that point. Yeah.

And one of the biggest jazz albums of the 70s... Actually, I think it was the best-selling, at that time, was the best-selling jazz album of all time. I think you're right about that. But you mentioned drummer Harvey Mason. Harvey Mason was only there in the studio. He never made the tour. Right.

So Herbie had to find another drummer. He ended up hiring the best friend of bassist Paul Jackson, a guy named Mike Clark, who really wanted to be a B-B-B-B-B-B-B. musician. Yeah. Didn't we all. We all.

But Mike Clark joined that headhunters tour and the first thing that they did when they got in the studio, the first track that was released when they got in the studio as this new and now sort of the core headhunters that we remain together made this, Palm Grease from Thrust. Mike Clark on the drums, Paul Jackson on the bass, Benny Moppin on the saxophones and reads, Bill Summers on percussion. and the one and only, Herbie Hancock on all things keys.

Palm grease. A little clav. Do you like your clav? Woo! A little auto wa. Dweig. Come on now. Paul Jackson.

What a distinctive way to start an album. Damn. Man. Herbie Hancock knows how to start some albums. Finish them, too. We're going to get to that. There's so many Paul Jacksonisms I want to talk about it. I know.

They've got a little extra bass in there. You hear that jumping from left or right? Well, that's a synth. Oh, that's one of the YARP synths, yeah. Bill Summers? That percussion is mixed so far on top. I know. It's so funky.

It's in two different hemispheres. We're about to start the tune, by the way. Oh, yeah. Benny Maupin. He's on soprano there. Herbie's playing a bunch of stuff on this album, too. Since, like an ARP Odyssey, ARP soloist, ARP 2600, ARP String Ensemble. And the ARPs were, like, brand new then.

That was like, I think they came out, like, a year before. I mean, like, within... There is some live footage from about a year later, and Herbie's set up in that live footage is un... Oh, yeah. I mean, you have to travel with a whole truck. Right. And it's interesting because they're in straight four now.

But that first section is in that big ten. Mike Clark and Paul Jackson, their syncopation and breakdowns. We're so like accusatory, right? To get that wah going? No one better with that wah on this next one. Denny, unbelievable. Foreshadowing to Apex Moment, Peter Martin.

Wait, Herbie's doing Herbie. Herbie's doing Herbie stuff. And then he's always got their roads in there. It's a great sounding roads. It's one of these sounds you think of when you think of, and he sort of calibrates on this whole album, like this one's a little less overdue. He gets into some overdrive on some of the other stuff.

I mean, like he uses the instrument. I mean, Herbie, George Duke, Master of the Federalist, Chikaria, Joe Zavinole. It's such a great period. Yeah, but this one barks. Yeah. This one has a real bark to it. Man, so much this vocabulary is like,

it's such a part of our playing, right? This album's so influential to so many keyboardists, so many piano players. It sold so many roads off of the back of newspapers over the years in the 80s and 90s. And then resold them. Yeah. Go to the islands. Hey! Very different drummer than... Oh, we're going to talk about that.

Yeah. And Paul Jackson is such a... kind of unicorn of a funk bass player. Is he been a funk bass player? He's funky. But we're going to talk about that, too. in about 17 minutes when this track is finished. You can hear it on this already on the first track.

The quintessential headhunters, meaning Mike Clark Paul Jackson, rhythm section, is this never-ending, that-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-tah between the two of them. Mike Clark is displacing the beats. There's never, like, almost never.

Just here's the backbeat, here's the front beat. It's like this very... Yeah. It's like some latency syncopation, you know, like where it's... I mean, very influential on modern drummers today, this kind of stuff. And I mean, like, well, like you said in the intro, like Tony Williams' huge influence on Mike Clark. Tony Williams' huge influence on Mike Clark, and you can hear that. I mean, on all those...

But Paul Jackson, too, you mentioned, like, is he a funk bass art? Right. He's not exactly just being like, oh, but don't-d-d-d-don-d-d-don. Like, he is going all over the place. He's adding this high-tenor voice. Yeah. Which is his thing. Yeah.

It's very like supportive, melodic interjections. And I think that's... Responsive. You can hear Herbie feed off that. Yeah. Out all of these albums. Well, so Herbie said... And this is from, you know, his wonderful,

highly recommend possibilities. Possibilities is amazing. Great autobiography. Autobiography? Yeah, autobiography. Herbie. He said, Paul Jackson was in an unusual funk bass player because he never liked to play the same baseline twice.

So during improvised solos, he responded to what the other guys played. I thought I'd hired a funk bassist, but as I found out later, he had actually started as an upright jazz bass player. Bebop Mike Clark, upright jazz bass player, Paul Jackson. That's so funny.

Yeah. So here's Mike and Paul, mostly Paul, talking about how they made this music. Language. Yeah. It started out. I think what happened in the 70s

when we really started. back then was that like it became okay for for for the fill-ins between a bass player and and and the drums you know the play to actually play off of each other so that so it like it it added a different type of unity and it also added more space so like so a bass player would play a like a like a like almost like a bass lead and type of fill-in to set up a drum part a drum a part and drums will do the same and leave space for things to happen as part of the rhythm as you know that unify the parts it wasn't like there's a it wasn't like a bass part and just the

on a drum part it was like one thing it came it came together and also uh there wasn't a definite backbeat on the two and the four mike clar you just kind of played the backbeat wherever you felt it so for the drum set um it was sort of like soloing between the bass the snare and the hi-hats it opened everything up so man this was a bit of a rub when they made this album, because, you know, the first one was Harvey Mason. Yeah. Who was like putting it down. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And it sold a hell of a lot of albums. Yeah. The pocket. And the producers of thrust were not exactly thrilled with this concept because they thought it wasn't commercial enough. Right. The next track, actual proof, is probably one of the most iconic tracks of the 1970s for most jazz musicians. Yeah.

I think you can put it up there in the top five of Herbie tracks ever. And also fusion play. Fusion players. We really love this. This might be the greatest road solo of all time. And the... Do you guys see that? Like how his countenance...

What do you call it? Countenance? His Count Dracula-ness just got very serious there. You just kind of drop that out there. I like that. I like that. He's so good with metaphors.

This is actual proof. And you can hear directly what Paul Jackson and Mike Clark were just talking about there, where the bass is going up and doing all of these lead things. The drums are not... putting a backbeat in a regular place.

It's happening in all these crazy places. They had to fight for this in the studio. The producer said, I will give you one chance to do the way you want to do it. And if it doesn't work, you're going to do it the way that I want to do it, which is going to be more commercial, more back to be.

It doesn't sound like a producer would ever say something like that. So they did it. Mike says in the liner notes of the 1997 remastered edition, it was my determination that we make the first take undeniable, actual proof for all the world to hear. We went back and we did it. one take it felt exactly as it sounds and that's why herbie changed the name to actual proof hey if you love sitting with an album really hearing it open studio is where we go deeper we've got lessons courses and a community of musicians who love this stuff as much as you come find us at openstudiojazz.com that's open studio jazz.com that's open studiojazz.com for your jazz lesson needs back to the show so great It's almost like so what

where the bass line is the main melody Well, we're going to get into a beautiful melody No, it is, but it's like... That's a melody. Yeah. It's so established already. And then like his different takes on it, right? But it's not like you can just like...

One. Where's the one? Yeah, I know. Oh, this is all in four, by the way. I know. The sound. Man. The synth sounds.

When you see the chart on this and you understand it, you're like, this song shouldn't work. It should be so random, but it's so well-bound. And yet it's one of the most iconic songs of the 1970s. More melodies. That's what I'm saying. The melody's in the bass. It's almost like Betty Moppin is the counter melody in a way. And then the clavinet.

A little obligato. Herbie on his Herbie shit It's more like Herbie's play Where He's improvising but it sounds like It's a written melody

It's so well-crafted, right? I'm going to get into this I got a whole take on Herbie's solo here Solos Of which there are many Confirm that's all in four for this whole thing Yeah It's always written out

It's like three and all that Oh here we go Settle in everybody Buckle up Okay. Three, four, one. Laying back through that. One, two, three, four.

Man, Paul Jackson never lets up on the creativity on this. The ebb and the, like, the flow of it, goes up to that symbol. Minor seconds. So many musicians, oh, Herbie a check from this one. Man, I think some keyboard players, some pianists were like, after they heard this, it was almost like an art time kind of thing where they're like, oh, no, I'm good.

I'm plumbing. There's always union plumbers. There's always work. Just because there's a lot of technical stuff, but there's a lot of like, just like, damn, how do you think that up? The way everybody's playing? Starting with Herbie, we're really starting with Paul Jackson, is potentially very busy and obtrusive.

So why does it work? I don't know what it does. I know. I don't know what it does. That's why I think it makes people quit. Like, damn, I couldn't play that. Even if I could, how's that going to work? My car's for that.

My bar is super busy. He just doesn't stop, man. And there's never like us. There's never like a clear indication, like it's rolling. One thing to note, notice how much Herbie uses the form in the solo. Yeah. He's always alluding to it. It's everything.

All of them. He's playing the tune as he's soloing. He's not just playing over it. No. And it's very much, it's really, this is kind of collective improv right now. 100%, you know? Listen, all the hits still hit. It's a baseball.

For this solo one million times and I still get gassed about it. And it's so, like, it's so aggressive, but it's so, because they're complimenting each other so well, it gets cohesive, right? Even the silence is aggressive. Oh, he goes up to fifth there. Oh, it's so sick. It's relentless. And Paul Jackson is relentless. I mean, there's one take.

Notice he's not. No edits, right? The energy is high, but herbie's not, like, overpriced. playing. No. Space. There's still space. There's still melodies. But there's... Like, the number of notes that they get away with is still feeling

like it has space. It must be the most kit drums per second. Oh my God, it's like everything. But man, their ears are so... They're talking about flow state. I mean, I think that's why musicians are so attracted to this. I've given a flow state listening to this. It's crazy.

And then they've always got that to come together. Never played it once right now of all of those. But they, I mean, they're playing in a way that you could imagine them going on well, they damn near do.

I mean, it's been 20 minutes. Like, four minutes already on the solo. But I mean, four minutes, they could be 12 minutes and it's not going to be a problem.

Like, they'll come up with some shit. And, like, they're not scared to come back to the same stuff, you know? Different groups. Different harmonies.

Man, there's so much confidence in each other. right? That the form is going to be there at the time that the hits, the hits, everything. We're doing for a short solo, so it was fine. Yeah, I only had to do it for eight minutes. It's actually kind of crazy.

Oh, my God. You like this? But which four bars of this solo are your favorites if you had to isolate it? And it's not a slow bird either. It's just like, it came out, came out the gate. It's not like, bam. Paul Jackson's like, bam. Mike Clark's like, ah!

You got a cigarette? Oh, my God. So, let's talk about this. So, you know, we talk about the range of emotion that music can have. But the really fun thing with jazz, and I would point to this, obviously, the solo, but this whole track. And other parts of this album that we're going to explore. Damn. Are so, like, to me, there's no debate if this is a jazz record.

Not that we even love to get into those debates anyway, you know, about, that's not jazz because they're playing funk or whatever. Like that's the thing that really defines this if you have to, if you want to fit something into a box of genre. To me is the collective improvisation, right? And not even that all jazz has to have that, but that's one aspect of it. You're talking about going back to the beginnings of the music in New Orleans, right? And on this, on this solo, and that's what I was saying, man, this is like everybody's solely. What happened to Bill Summers? Did he get lost in there?

Well, Betty Moppin wasn't really playing at that part. But everybody who's playing is soloing at the same time and the level of improvisation. the fact that it's one take makes it even more impressive. But even if you didn't know that, is relentless. You know, the interactivity, the improvisation, the intensity,

the rhythmic attenuation, man, it's great. Oh, by the way, Dwight Smith's looking for his album. And he wrote all on the inside of it as well. It's written on the thing. He's very territorial about it. My stomach hurts.

I'm so excited about this. End a side one. Cat, done. Flip it over. Oh, another fun thing. I never noticed this. They go backwards on the... I know.

I know. mini panic attack. I was like, wait a minute. We're going to talk about that in kuchemans. Well, Kuchermans is good. Man, so, Peter, I don't know about what your experience was. I have a very funny relationship with this album. By the way, I grew up with 17 dudes that looked just like this in the 70s.

I have a very interesting relationship. I actually learned about it by first just being handed a cassette tape that someone had made for me for a rehearsal. And I had to learn how to play Spankalee when I was 16 years old. I was 16. Yeah, that's... And they had a road... Shout out

Jason Van Dieman and his house in Kirkwood that I had to go in the basement of... Bandimien. How you say that. Sure. But he had a Rhodes and I tried to learn Spankali and I'm sure I sounded

horrible trying to... I still remember trying to do it and being like, what is going on? But I learned so much and I loved it. I didn't even know what it was. Yeah. Because I think I'm right about this.

I don't think this album was available on CD for a while in America because I remember people having it but they had a Japanese copy. Right. It was first, yeah, for sure. That they had to get on CD. It was a bunch like that.

I don't know if that's correct. If we have anybody from the 90s. Is anybody out there from the 1990s? I think even I think that's more late 80s. It might be. Yeah. I might be. I mean, I first headed on LP, but it was, I'm trying to remember

but I might have been, I used to buy a lot of stuff when I'd go to Japan. Well, I know that was 90s though. I wasn't going in the 80s at all. Anyway, I had that same friend ripped me tape of the whole thing. I like how you consider, should I, like, would you like statute limitations? I've since bought it

about 12 times on all the different platforms. you could buy it. So I've done my due diligence. Yeah. But yeah, how'd you get into this? Did you... Well, so this is interesting. I was having to remember this as I've been listening

the last couple days, but then it became very clear. So my entry point to Herbie was Rocket, which I think was like 1982 or 83 or something. Right. Is that your favorite Herbie record? I can't remember. Or is it this? Anyway.

It's not. I don't hate it, but it's not my favorite. But we were talking about the nostalgia of like the entry points, right? And so because that album will always have a special place for me. Although I'd actually heard Herbie, but I didn't know it was Herbie before that on Miles Davis, My Funny Valentine. Yeah, yeah. Actually, right around the same time.

So once I got... But you didn't know that was Herbie playing piano. No, no. I mean, I knew pretty... I didn't know right away, but then I knew. I think my dad had said something like, oh, I think that guy's on... Because I had Rocket.

I mean, basically I knew about Rocket because it was on the radio, and then there was an MTV video that I thought was really cool. And I was like, oh, and I was trying to scratch with... I thought you had to have the actual record... You didn't. Yeah, scratch your records. Oh, Peter, that's horrible. That's awful.

It kind of worked. But then when I started getting into all things, Herbie, I went back, stuff with Miles, then the later, you know, the second grade quintet, the, um, but the later stuff plugged nickel. I got to plug nickel kind of early on Miles Smiles, that stuff. But then Headhunters, I think that was one of the first, I don't know if I had the album or heard it, but we used to have a little band and we would play, like, parties and stuff, and that was one of our funk tunes that, like, would work that we knew. Like, once I got this, I didn't even, wasn't like.

you, I didn't even try to learn. I had the roads, too. I didn't even try this stuff. I was like, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine how to even get into this. I remember hearing actual proof. I was like, what the hell is that? I was, so I was trying to learn what Herbie was doing. This is on Spankly.

Trying to learn what he was doing on the roads. And then I had a, I had a, I had a rolling XP50. And I was trying to get those sounds from the ARPS on that. And it was not happening. I was not nearly as good as synthesis that you could be and to menu dive on those things. And I don't know if Rowland had the, you could be able to do it anyway. Right. But I remember when I got this record, shot out of vintage vinyl in University City Loop,

I was like, because there's no liner notes on it, and having this again, it brought up all these memories. I remember listening to this record and just like looking at the pictures of these guys and like figure out who was who, first of all, which I didn't really, I knew who Herbie was, and then I somehow figured out Mike Clark because he was the only white guy, I guess. and then Benny Mopin's holding He's holding his instrument That's how he knew that he was the saxophone is

But Paul Jackson and Bill suffers I never knew which was with because I was just like They're not doing anything Until later Like a bass player But because you just It was pre-internet and pre-phones Like you just had to

Figure stuff out There was the word San Francisco was written all over this It's like Recorded at Wally Heider Studios And the way they were dressed I was like my god These are like the coolest funkiest hippies ever.

We should mention that a lot of these musicians have connections to the Bay Area. Right. You know, and so this is, the Bay Area has a huge, huge imprint on, on the headhunters. Although, I think it was, Paul Jackson and Mike Clark were from the Bay Area.

Everybody else was, well, Bill Summers went to, like, grad school or something out there. So there was something there. There was some connection there. But I just assume Herbie was a San Francisco guy because it's like artist management. Chicago guy. San Francisco.

I know, I didn't know. I hadn't read possibilities yet. Anyway, that's just kind of a funny Funest side. By the way, Bay Area at this time, known for being funky. You got Sly and the Family Stone,

you got Tower of Power, you got a bunch of stuff coming out of there. I just didn't know that. Okay. Side B. Is this a funk band, by the way? We're going to talk about that later.

You want to talk about that now? This is jazz funk. How about that? Jazz funk. I mean, you know, because you like genres, I'm a stickler for a genre. I got to make sure to get the right song.

Jazz rock? Jazz funk. I mean, it's in the funk genre. It's in that, but it's definitely, these are definitely jazz musicians. Yeah. I mean, you could just hear it in their approach to it, right?

Yeah. Side B starts off with probably the second most famous song on the album. It's a ballad, but it's still played in, I mean, they're going to, they might play it tonight at the jam sessions here in St. Louis. This is a butterfly. Yeah, this is. By Herbie and Benny Maupin. Most iconic Cunga, ARP strings.

It's a good string sound. It's a great song. It's a great thing. Oh, my gosh. Benny Maupin. sexy times guys how can you make a bass clarinet sexy he did it

you know how many is that like altup soprano and I feel like I'm laying in a heated waterbed right now you do you with a tiger print comforter and a tiger magazine

Sean Cassidy poster everybody's wearing a lot of beads water bed has a puncture in it let's be honest Summers I forgot what a record of

like of spaces opportunistic spaces Those arpstrings do sound great here All the scents on this album There's a lot of like Synth Accrujum wants on this

Right? Lots Cascade Herbie I think Benny Moffin's probably underrated His work in this band Throughout the whole thing And his work with Miles

His work with many other people His solo stuff He's so so good. He's so like he really pulls the emotion out of every solo, out of every song. He grabs you by the heart. It's pretty amazing.

I agree. Intentionality. Like you never hear him play something where he's like, oh, maybe. Or it's so I don't hear a lot of saxophone players talk about him, but he's really, really special. I want to throw one name out there. I mean, he had a big influence. Ron Blake. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's got that same kind of spirit of intention and beauty. I appreciate it, man. It's It's very rare. And Benny, I mean, so great on the fruit, on the bass class, a lot of different instruments, equally great. So, can we talk about... There's a great... There's solos on Butterfly, but it's like, it is like 12 minutes long or something. Yeah.

All the solos are killing. Bill Summers. Okay. Percussionists. Yeah, percussionists. So, oh, there's, I forgot. Actually, I have... I got a chance to play with Bill a few times on gigs in New Orleans in the late 90s.

Actually, early 2000s, Bill was part of a band that I occasionally... with sub in called Los Homes Calientes that he started with Irving Mayfield. The hot guys. Super nice. Yeah, man. Oh, very buenos. Español.

Signor. Dos. Eches. Okay. Anyway. Bill Summers, super nice guy, great musician, funny guy,

warm guy, hung with him a bunch of snug harbour. It was kind of a fun time when he moved to New Orleans, which I want to say it was like mid-90. I'd still been there for a while. He's still there, I believe. I moved away.

But he, I think, has two of the most iconic. So on head, do-de-to-to-de-to-d-to-de-to-d-to-d- on the bottle. That's him, right? I believe so. Yeah. And then this Kong, can we just hear that at the beginning? Sure. Because, I mean, it's not its...

Right, so it's like the thumb on the... Yeah, lick the thumb. Yeah. I think... But there's a lot of artistry to that. Don't come for us, percussionists. No, you do. Yeah, because I've seen...

I mean, you're going to be like, oh, anyone can learn to do that. Buddy, I'm a big fan of percussionists. Shout out to all our percussionists who listen. You guys don't get a lot of credit for just the pure vibes that you bring to a band. I'm always whenever someone I'm playing in a band that has a percussionist, I'm like, this is great. Why don't we do this all the time? First of all, it's always a higher-end band because it's usually like, we can't really afford it. Do we really need it?

But see, the ones that appreciate. It's kind of like if you have a five-star hotel, there's one guy or gal that's just like there. Oh, can I help? I guess you'd call it the concierge, perhaps. I'm not, I'm forgetting that. But no, it's not even the concierge. It's like an extra person that's just kind of around.

And you don't normally need them, but when you do, they've got the, you know. It's just they just. And I'm going to say percussionists on me. I'm saying it. They sprinkle some magic music dust over everything that you're doing. And you're just like, oh, this is so luxurious to have a profession. And then they also drive.

Yeah. You know, the groove, as we heard we do on actual proof, which in a way opens it up from my... I mean, yeah, anyway, Bill Summers is such a great part of this. There's a great cover of this that has just... It went viral several years ago. It's from the wonderful vocalist, Gretchen Parlato. It features Taylor Aigste on the piano, Alan Hampton on the bass, and Mark Giuliana on the drums. By the way, all three of those guys, friends of the show in one way or the other.

Yeah, friends in the studio. But their version of Butterfly is spectacular. It's from a live album. We're about a minute and a half into it here. She's incredible with this. Mark Julianne is such a monster man. Student of yours. Well.

Taylor Axtee, one of the best. Oh. Using the space that got great inspiration from the original. It's so good. So, like, they're re-harmoning and stuff. Like, they've got the spirit of the... Gretchen Parlado, live in New York. We'll link to it here.

It's an incredible YouTube video that you can watch this all happen. Amazing band. And that's... I think that's probably the most... One of the most famous covers of anything on this album. Even though it's...

A lot of this has been covered in one way or the other. And Butterfly, especially, but that one is very, very special. Yeah, butterfly and actual proof seem to be the most. All right, we're almost done. The actual proof is one of the most butchered,

I would say. It is hard to get even... Doesn't mean you got to butcher. 100th of the way to where they get it here. And yet, we all still try. We might try ourselves. We'll see what ends this show.

We might even give it a shot. We'll see. The album ends... We'll do a different version. Don't put that on it. The album ends with... This is the tune that I had to learn when I was 16. Can I tell my Paul Jackson's story?

Settling everybody. Dad's got a story. First of all... Boomer's story. We don't know where it's going. Go ahead, Pete. Okay. So this is 1995.

Take yourself back. Okay? I'm an adult. You're a child. Let's put that out there. I'm a young adult. So we're flying from, I don't know, somewhere, I think, San Francisco, to Narita Airport in Japan. I'm with Brian Blade, Christopher Thomas, Joshua Redmond, Peter Bernstein.

It's bragging. No, no, no. We're going over there to do a little tour. And we're like, I can't remember if we're like getting all in the plane or we're kind of hovering around. And this gentleman comes up to us. He's like, hey, are you guys a band? And we're like, well, yes, we are. You might know us.

And we start talking to him real nice guy. And he's like, oh, you're going to Japan. And you've been there. We've been there several times. He's like, oh, that's cool. You know, and we're just, you know, talking to him, whatever we get on the plane. We're talking to him literally as we're boarding the plane. And then, you know, when there's that awkward moment and you're like,

talking and all of a sudden he's not there because you're walking past business and first class back to coach and then he's somehow Yeah And you're like oh okay Walk the same And so I'm like so anyway

Oh okay So so he's You sit up there So we're in the back Like you know we take off They're coming around with food or whatever And this guy comes back He's like hey guys

You know where are you playing Like he's the most friendliest guy ever But like almost to the point of like Yo man you know But he's so nice, you know. Where are you guys playing? Or we're playing at the Blue Note in Tokyo. Oh, man. You're going to love that. You've played there before? No.

Oh, man. It's great, man. I'm going to come down, which... Yeah. I said I know it was. And anybody at this point? No. Blaine? No. No. And for some reason, like, I'm talking to him the most, me and Chris. Blaine's kind of... Josh was sitting somewhere like... You guys are very personal. Well, I mean, you know. Thank you.

But then, um, at some part, I was like, oh, my name's is Peter Martin. He's like, no, I know you are, man. I know you guys, man. It's great. With Joshua Redmond, right? It was like, Oh, you're a fan. And I was like, Would you like an autograph? And I was like, you're a musician or you just,

he's like, I love music, but I mean, I play too. Wow. It sounds like I'm making this up and I'm paraphring. But I was like,

what's your name? He's like, Paul. And I was like, oh, cool. I still didn't know. Come on. But then in a certain point.

Man, like as the flight's going on, then he left, went back up to the front. And then he came back at one point. Yeah. And then I was like, wait, I mean, he didn't,

like I said, this was my reference. I didn't know which was which. Yeah. You saw him when he was like 24 years old. Yeah. And then he was talking about the other thing that didn't clue me off. He's talking about all this stuff he knows.

And he's talking to Japanese to the flight attendants, more than Japan airline. He was a well-traveled person. He'd been living in Japan at that point. I think his wife was Japanese maybe, but he'd been living there. So at a certain point, I was like, Paul Jackson? And he's like, yeah, I was like, bass player? He's like, yeah, man.

You know what? Oh, my gosh. We were like, but he was so, like, cool about it. Isn't that great? I'm like, Blade, Blade, yeah. And then, like, come to, like, we hung out with him that whole week. And then he's like, man, what hotel are you staying at? We told him.

And this is, like, pre-cell phone. The next morning, we're down to breakfast. He comes in the lobby. He's like, what's up, guys? He's like, come on, let's go. I remember he took us to the Apple store in, like, Shinjuku or something. It was like the first time I'd been to an Apple store. They had different ones over there, and they've got all these cool computers.

And he knew, he's talking to the people in Japanese. Like, yeah. And then he said something. He's like, what's the album you guys just did? And we said something live at the Village Vanguard. He went over, like, we're looking at stuff to all the computers on display and pulled that album up on each one, like with the picture of all of us. And we're like, what are you doing?

He's like, come on, you got to promote your stuff, man. I'm hooking you guys up. You guys are great. This is great. And he came to the gig like every night. Such a great cat, though. Isn't that the best when you meet someone who you admire so much, who's so established, who's been in the game longer than you?

Yeah. And they're just cool about it. And they're not trying to like, you know, one-up you or make you feel less than. I love that, man. That's great. Definitely was starved for American companionship over there. That was part of it, too.

We didn't have a lot more to give him about that. It was more of a one-sided. We were getting stuff from him. R. IP, Paul Jackson. Well, he's, Paul Jackson. R.P. Paul Jackson. We lost him in 2021. He's about to rip.

Absolutely rip it up on Spankalee. This is maybe my favorite ever ending track on any jazz album, Peter. Spankalee. Oh, it's another one of our drum intros, off-kilton drum intro alert, right? Wait, we got to take it back. That's our tradition, man.

We take it back. So let me just set the scene here. And the bass playing is great. You're okay? Come on down. But we talk about these drum intros where you're like, and then it falls in. So brilliant.

This feel is, where it's not chapap, ba-da-bom. No. This feels fucking unbelievable. Yeah. I mean, does he kind of flops? Does he kind of hit his stick a little bit? It's a beautiful sloppy mess. Oh!

That's killing. I love that they laugh. I mean, it's great. Mike Clark. High hat filled. 16th, no thing. I know. Happening the whole time.

Could you imagine go back and layering in those keyboards? There's already so much happening. Like, what do you do? There's a moment coming up that's going to be really hard. Maybe he was playing, maybe Herman was playing the solvice at the same time. He was. I mean, you can't, he did this live. Oh, he crushed it.

On this? Yeah. No, no, no. I don't know about this. No, I know he can do it. But he did it live in that live in, uh, I forget, flood. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a Rhodes moment coming up that it's, it's, it might not be my Apex moment because of some other things, but it's going to be hard.

This part. Call and response. The last one he does. I don't know if it's here. That's not. Not yet. James Brown. No, I know, I know.

Is it a killing soul. I mean, it's a. I think it's this one It's got to be It's got to be my apex moment It's coming up on my apex moments It's so driving It's so relentless

That that That beat between Mike Clark and Paul Jackson And Mike Clark's all of his album His fills on the high hat Not going to a craft Or the kick The high hat or the kick But also like Bill Summers

And Sorry Bill Summers And Herbie All the things Herbie are doing Behind Benny Mawken Like altered All 3-4-4-0 Okay, this is my Apex moment.

I'm here all the way to the end. Like, when he goes to the YW. So that was your Apex epic. I mean, it's one of the great ending tracks. I was just thinking as I was listening to that, I know that so far inside and out. I think that's the first music that I ever truly learned by ear.

I think when Jason Van Dima gave me that tape and I had to learn it for our band rehearsal, I think I'd only been working out of, like, fake books up into that point when I was 16. And it was great ear. training. And so much so that that was 31 years ago. And I still remember all of those hits. I still remember what those chords were, or at least what I learned, which was probably not correct, which is okay, by the way, to be wrong at first. But man. Wrong and strong. I mean, just the

attempt of trying to learn it and not knowing anything about music, like how I would know now, but just even failing at that as I'm trying to do that, that's really growth. And like I said, my apex is this one little moment, Peter, this one little spot right here. Right here. Ah, that's great. Just that. And I mean, like, the 30 times he played it before that different each time,

kind of all leads, like, the, you're talking about the architecture, boom, and then it comes back, then, boom. Like, oh, Herbie, great at, like putting a button in, but then throwing a little stitch and then, just a Herbie appreciation moment. Just, what a guy. What a artist, what a musician, what a... The whole band. I mean, Paul Jackson kind of...

No, no, hold on. We've been given the band a lot of love and I love the band so much. Yeah, because we haven't given Harvey enough love on this podcast. Never. Just thank you. Shut your mouth, sir.

No, obviously thank you. The whole band. I want to get a shout out to the producer, David Rubenson, and to the engineer. Fred Catero, I believe is how you say that.

But Herbie Hancock, thank you for all you've given us. I mean, just even thank you for this last hour and 15 minutes for me, man. This is unbelievable. It's a great record. It's a great record. Okay, let's talk about some other categories.

We got both of our apex moments, but I believe that's all we've done so far. Yeah, it does it on the track. What do you got? I got butterfly. I mean, I think that that's, what do you got? Spankly. Yeah, because you love it.

You learned it. No, that's great moments, but, I mean, butterfly is, that's a standard. I mean, honestly, you can't go wrong. Yeah. I think palm grease is a great starter. It's not his best in this era for me. I mean, I love it.

Don't get me wrong. I love it, but it's not compared to everything else. As a composition, it's maybe not as like, oh my God. It's not, yeah. The performance. Obviously, it's great. It's awesome way to start too. Yeah.

But it doesn't. I think it's, it's, uh, I mean, I'd be a great one to have on a desert island. It would be great. They're all, I mean, this is all great. But I think for me, it's, it's spankly and I could see why you'd pick butterfly. It's funny, actually, Peter, that none of, like, neither of our apex moments or desert on the tracks had anything to do with actual proof. I know.

I, I, I, even after we sat there and like, well, I, to me, it's, it's, that's the most, as a player, the most interesting track and like from a nerd, music nerd standpoint. But to me, I don't think it's the best track on this album, which is weird. That's what we just said. That's what Desert Island track is, I know. I mean, as far as a listener, when I separate myself out and I wanted, but I could be wrong because a lot of the music on this record,

I think even compared to Headhunters, I'm kind of like, oh man, this could not be as big of a hit, but it basically was or close to it. Which is insane. Yeah. I mean, if we had a category that was best solo on the album, which maybe we should add at some point, I think you, you know, that easily wins. Actual proof.

Actual proof, the Herbie's solo and actual proof easily wins best of the four. Well, but it just keeps going on and on. You know what I'm saying. Well, I mean, that's one of Herbie's most epic solos on anything. It's incredible. It's incredible. Quibble bits. Oh, no, sorry, bespoke playlist title.

If this were a playlist that you were making on Spotify for your dear friend Adam, what would your title it? Well, I'm going with a nautical theme on this one. Jazz Charters. Okay. Okay. Got it? You got both levels?

Because it's charted on the... What do you have? I have the Oakland Stroke, because I would pair this with more... That's a title of a Tower of Power album and song. I would pair this with more Bay Area stuff. There's definitely some strong sly, some strong... Yeah, for sure.

Like, it's a sound, which is great. Quibblebiz. None for me. I've got a minor one. It's not M. Wandishi. I love M.O. Nwandaishi. I know.

Why would I compare this? It's different. But you know what it is? because Benny Moppin. He's the connector. I always think about Benny. I love it. But I love him on this too.

So that's not really a quibble bit. That's just a nostalgic little turn, right? Stemometer, what do you got? I'm going four. Interesting. Yeah, because you could say one, but to me, Headhunters is one, right? And this, but then I didn't realize this was such a big seller,

so maybe it should be a one or two. But it's a little bit like, if you're like, what's your favorite Herbie, from the 70s. If you're like thrust, you're a little bit like, hmm, okay. A little bit, right?

Man child, perhaps. I've got eight. Okay. I consider this pretty snobby. Like, there is no backbeat. One of the best-selling jazz records of all time? Yeah, I mean, I know, I know, but it still is very, like,

there are four long tracks with long solos and no backbeat, and they're playing really, really playing. Yeah. And I feel like this is an album that snobs especially probably really love more than the general pop. I think if you look at, especially if like nerds, music nerds,

of which we are some. We are. We are. But what's the overlap with that and snobs? Then that would put, this is definitely a nerdy, a musical nerdy record. So good. Is it better than KOB? No.

No. And in that category, if you're new to the show, which we've got a lot of new listeners to the show, by the way. I don't know if you know that. Well, but we're losing people too. So it's kind of evening out. Still a net game. But is it better than KOB means, is it better than Miles Davis's 1915?

99 classic kind of blue. Oh, thanks for explaining that to us. Some people ask that when we just skip over and we say, is it better than K-O-B? No, but some people, some people don't know. Because we're saying K-O-B. K-O-B. So Miles Davis is kind of blue.

Is it better than that. Which is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, because we don't necessarily think that's the greatest album of all time, although it's pretty good. It's pretty, pretty good. But it's sort of the one that people would, if you ask the every man or the every woman on the street. I think we can say that. Platinum's above gold.

Okay. Well, and some have been. Okay. Acuchamance. I got an eight. and I could go nine. We can't be friends. You and I can't be friends anymore.

No, no, no. The cover is so great, but it's so weird. I like, what is it saying? I love it. And I love the back. But then it's also like... What is it saying? The tracks are back.

What is it saying? Okay, we're going to go volume part two of the podcast. Peter, he's flying a spherical spaceship controlled by a rounded piano keyboard. It's a synthesizer that flies through space. But that's not space. That's a mountain. That's Machu Picchu.

on a different planet, Peter. What is it saying? Is he going there? Is he coming back or is he controlling it from here? His afro is perfect, Peter. How are you? I don't know. I gave it an eight.

This has been one of the most controversial moments in the show's history. No liner is too. What is it saying? I mean, eight's good. If everything's a 10, nothing's, what are you giving it? How is this not a 10?

That is a 10. Oh my God. 10 out of 10. So you're doing 10. That's the greatest album cover ever. Got it. Got it. We're close.

Up next. Secrets. Okay, that's good. Would you consider that? Harvey Hancock's 1976. When you go to Secrets? Are we going to a better album for you or worse? Or the same?

It's a lateral move. It's a lateral move. Okay, I'm going to go, because this is 1974. This is 1974, right? Yeah. I'm going to go Mysterious Traveler, which is one of my, probably my favorite weather report record. We got to do some weather report.

We didn't talk enough about, so headhunters and weather report, kind of going on parallel tracks. Joe Zavinal, Herbie Hancock, Wayne, look, I mean, really starting with Bitches Brew, almost, actually, I think everybody on this, well, not everybody, but like, Wayne Shorter, Joe Zavinal,

Benny Moppin, wouldn't he on Bitches Brew, too? I don't think Herbie was, but he was around it. Like, he was with Miles Vap, but, like, there's a lot of connections, kind of, it's... There's a lot of Miles connection. There's the weather report view of, like, what's the post Bitches Brew thing in a silent way, Joe Zaventel, of course, big, you know,

what's happening, post that big influence of miles this is one direction that's one direction and then one direction the band that's another direction you'll hear it you'll hear it