You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 5 Tips for Playing With Two Chordal Instruments - #80

Episode Date: April 20, 2018

Today, Peter and Adam give 5 tips for finding a good balance when playing with another chordal instrument. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This is Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear at podcast. Daily Jazz Advice coming at you. Today we're going to give you five tips for playing with two chordal instruments, i.e., piano and guitar. I'm pretty sure this should never, ever be done. This creates a vortex of thick seventh and ninth chord that nobody wants to hear, right? Well, maybe this will be five tips to not create a thick vortex while still having a piano and guitar playing at the same time.

I'm skeptical. So this is one that we've gotten so many questions about over the years, perhaps not even specific to this podcast, but just as pianist. And, you know, I think Adam and myself both have had occasion to play with some great guitar players. I know I've been very lucky that most of the guitarists that I've worked with are so good that it's rarely, have we even had to discuss. what our approach is going to be to this potentially conflicting vortex, as you say, between piano and guitar. But, you know, looking back and seeing what works, and especially listening to different recordings and stuff, it's fun to start identifying some things that we can do to ensure that they work, especially if you're kind of thrust into a situation where you don't know the guitar,

so you don't know the pianist and just kind of want to make things work. Yeah, I mean, in that situation, it's like any other situation. You're just feeling out the other musicians, seeing where they're going to go and trying to, create the best music you can. Yep. In that situation. So we're going to start off, and I know this isn't something we talk a lot about on this podcast.

You'll almost never hear us say this, but number one is to listen. Sorry. Am I not supposed to laugh there? Are we presenting these out of order? What's going on? I mean, this is our mantra for a reason, and it's because it's the most important part. Listen. Listen.

Listen. We're going to have a whole episode of seven minutes of that. Chanting. Chanting. Listen. Actually, if we did that, it might help a lot of people. That's right. No, but listen.

Hey, listen, listen. But if you want to stay out of each other's way, the only way to do that is to be able to hear what that other person is doing. Try to pay attention to where they are, you know, on their baselines and their voicings, you know, what they're doing, their energy, try to match all that, try to be with each other. I mean, the most important thing for all of this is to play, confidently and in time together, you know, keeping the groove going strong. If you could do that, even if you're clashing sometimes, it's still going to feel awesome.

Right. So the other part of that, and leading into number two, I would say as far as listen is sometimes, and for some reason I've been in the situation quite a bit recently. I cannot hear because of the kind of venue and how the instruments are presented on stage or position. I've been on these tours where the guitarist is way on the other side of the stage, and I've been using less and less monitor, so I can't really hear as good. So I am listening, listen, listen, but I can't hear, hear.

So what I would say is, for number two tip, would be learn about the other instrument, learn about the guitar, you know, like the range of it, the tone of it, the voicing. So what I will do is sort of, since I know a little bit of guitar, is as I'm, you know, do it visually if I can't hear, I'm looking to see how much he or she is playing. playing what range they're in and kind of maybe I can hear a little bit but by seeing and because

I know the instrument and understand the range of it I kind of know what they're doing and like the way that they're comping or playing a line or whatever so the visual can help when when the listening is not possible yeah and just knowing you know I was watching you and your friend haemero lo bamba great guitarist play duo just the last week right when we when he was in town and you know you were talking about then after that little session about like how you know where his instrument ends. So sometimes as a pianist, you hang out towards the corners, right? Towards the top and bottom. Because you know that Homero can't play up there or down there. Right. And that's kind of a failsafe that I've used before when I can't hear the guitar at all.

Right. I'll just, I will, like just to make sure, and especially if it's something that I don't know what he's playing, Homero, for example, and I can't really see it. I'll just go on the outside because I don't want, I have to imagine what it would sound like, even if I'm playing something hip, but if If I'm going to clash, let me just go outside at least so that I don't, so that that doesn't happen. Yeah, I think that's really great advice. And I mean, it kind of rolls into our number three here, which is to leave space. And when we say leave space, we mean both in, you know, how you're arranging, you know, the range where you're playing. Like we were just talking about playing on the outsides of the keyboard if you're a pianist or maybe, you know, playing down low if you're a guitarist because, you know, the pianist's up high.

but also, you know, in the space of the tune. I think what happens a lot in duo gigs is it feels kind of like a solo gig. Yeah, right? So you think you have to fill up all this space. But, you know, we've talked about this even in solo gigs. You have more time than you think you do. Right.

You have more space, more negative space, than you think you might. You don't have to fill up every single beat. You can have silence. Yep. In a solo gig, in a duo gig. So I think that's a really important thing to remember that if you're both feeling the pulse of the time, really strongly. If you're confident with it, you can leave lots of space for each other and yourself.

Yeah, and dual situations with guitar piano, we should be even more careful because there's a potential for both parties to think, oh, I'm going to play more because there's no basis. It gets really hard. And it can get very, you know, very intrusive or obtrusive. That's true. Number four, be supportive. Okay, that kind of goes along with what we're saying already, but it also means, you know, think of specific ways and times within the arrangement or tune that you can just be straight up supportive. So just kind of a comping situation, you know, if you're a duo, and sometimes being supportive is to lay out, you know, if you've got a bigger group or whatever. But I think in general, when I think about supportive,

even when it's not guitar versus piano, which I guess would be a little bit adversarial the way I phrased that. Worst case scenario. You put a verses in between them. So yeah. But, you know, being supportive really means putting the total band sound, the total performance, the artistry of the entirety of the group ahead of the individual. I guess it's a little bit communist. We always talk about, I don't totally understand communism, but I know it's more about, like, group than, you know what, let me not even tread into politics. But what I'm, you know, it's not necessarily like, you know, democracy. You're saying everyone has their voice. And yes, of course, jazz music is very much a democratic.

music, but in terms of when we talk about guitar and piano where you have the ability to step forward, to step back, to comp, to be the whole orchestra, all these kind of things, sometimes the most supportive thing you can do is to lay out, you know? So whatever it takes, being supportive just means like you're willing to sacrifice yourself for the better of the whole. That's right. So our last point, our fifth point, our fifth tip for playing with two chordal instruments, piano guitar mostly, is to listen to the masters who have done this before. And this gets overlooked, I think, because, you know, we're going to. listen to how many great trio records and we emulate those or quartet, quintet records.

But if you're regularly playing duo gigs or even if you just have one on your calendar, you know, you should be checking out some great duo recordings. And there's a lot of great recordings. You know, the first thing that comes to mind is actually the trio recordings of Oscar Peterson, but he did a lot of duo work in those trio recordings with Herbie Ellis. And, I mean, they just like support each talk about supportive and leaving space and everything is grooving. another one, one of my favorite records of all time, is the Bill Heavens.

It's like Bill Evans. Bill is in heaven. That's true, Bill Evans. No, Bill Evans' Jim Hall Undercurrent album. Oh, that's classic. It's a gorgeous record, and they are so sensitive towards each other. A lot of support. That's a very supportive album on both sides constantly.

Absolutely. And they create such a great mood. It's really, it's not like two people who are just kind of blowing over each other. It's like they've actually made something beautiful. full to listen to. So I would check out those first. And I mean, there's so many others. Those are great. I'm just thinking kind of popping my head is some stuff with full rhythm section, like West Montgomery, live at the half note, I think it is, with Winton Kelly. And I don't even know how much, well, I guess there's some other records with them, too.

That's some really good example of a little bit harder driving swing with the, you know, with bass and drums. And kind of the, I think for Winton Kelly, thinking from the piano standpoint, not really having to change his style a whole lot because, you know, and maybe that's because Wes particularly in his style, the way he played that fit in with that naturally, but also changing it just enough and giving the support in a way that really fits with the guitarist through listening and through understanding the instrument that's very, very effective.

You know, there was a great recording from just a few years ago of Brad Meldo and Pat Mathini. That was really, really good way that they mix their two style. I mean, not just like guitar piano, but they're two very different styles. Oh, I want to hear that. It was good. I want to hear it.

So, yeah, hope this helps. I know this is a situation that comes up a lot with piano students, because unfortunately, some of our best friends are guitarists. That's right. Absolutely. Well, when in doubt, you'll hear it. Thanks for listening to this episode of the You'll Hear It podcast. If you liked what you heard, please leave a rating or review.

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