You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 7 Classical Composers With Jazz Tendencies (feat. Shawn Weil) - #95

Episode Date: May 4, 2018

In today's episode, Peter, Adam, and violinist, Shawn Weil, list 7 classical composers that have influenced and been influenced by jazz. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This is Adam Manus. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Daily Jazz Advice coming at you. Today we're going to give you seven classical composers that have influenced jazz. Wait, I thought jazz came out of a vacuum that was just like it was New Orleans and there was a bubble over it. Nobody influenced anybody. Well, it did, but you know how classical music and musicians are.

They always want to come back and take the credit for it later. I know. I hate those classical. Oh, wait, who's that sitting in front of us? Oh, that's how we do it. What's going on? a very special guest today, amazing musician and an amazing friend of ours, Mr. Sean Weil, who hails from the south side of Chicago, but is a long time member of the St. Louis Symphony, bedrock of the violin section. So, so great to have you here today, Sean.

Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so we have you here, Sean, because you are an encyclopedia of musical knowledge, not just classical music, which is your genre that you play, but of jazz, too. And you're actually a pretty annoyingly good jazz improviser. So we brought you here to kind of hip us to some classical composers and maybe even some pieces or recordings that have influenced jazz. I know you know so much about both these things. Yeah, sure. I feel like the list goes on and on and on and on, but I guess we could talk about a few since you guys like to talk in sevens. I was going to say, how about seven?

You got seven on your mind by any chance? Let's go way back. Well, not too, too far back, but I guess we could start with the late-bate. Beethoven string quartets. That's right. So number one, we have those late Beethoven string quartets. I know, Sean, you hit me to Opus 130, which has like seven movements.

It's got... Beethoven was ahead of his time. One of my all-time favorite movements of any pieces of all-time is in that called the Cavatina. It's absolutely gorgeous. The thing that strikes me about all late Beethoven, but especially the string quartets, it sounds like it was written yesterday.

Absolutely. You know what I mean? Absolutely. And he just completely knocked down all the walls in terms of what the structure had to be. And especially for string quartet, he really pushed the boundaries on every level. And nothing before since, I think. Yeah, rhythmically so ahead of his time, so complex in those first couple movements. I mean, like these jagged rhythms, it sounds like it could be.

from like a piano trio record from, you know, this century. It sounds really, really modern. The harmony, obviously, the voice leading. But then he hits you, especially in Opus 130, he hits you with that cavatina. I mean, it sounds like one of the most beautiful melodies you've ever heard. I mean, isn't there a story about he, like, it's the only thing that ever made him cry of anything he wrote.

It's such a moving movement. And it's a moving movement. It's a moving movement. And it's almost a religious experience to hear it. So if you only know Beethoven from, you know, and some of the symphonies or whatever. That's a classic too, buddy. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, by the way.

That's some good thematic development right there, classic thematic development. But no, seriously, check out these late string quartets, especially 130, but also, you know, 132 is awesome. 131, 127. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're all incredible. And, yeah, yeah, they're really,

amazing, amazing pieces. All right, so let's move on to number two. And what were you thinking there, Sean? Maybe Maurice Ravel. Ah, Zéffauterreau. Yes, yes, absolutely. Je mairevel. Absolutely.

He was unbelievable. An amazing orchestrator, an amazing user of instruments and sections in orchestras. He knew how to pull different qualities of sound and timbers. and like no one before him, I think. Yeah. Now, I guess this is actually, I used to always think of Ravel as like getting into the classical composers that were influenced by jazz.

But I guess he was right around that borderline, right, of maybe hearing some early what would be called jazz. Absolutely. And having that influence his music. And he had an influence on a lot of early jazz composers as well. There was a famous story about Gershwin. He was a big fan of his. He went to Paris to meet with him, to study with him possibly.

And he famously asked him how much money he'd made composing his music. And, you know, Ravel thought, hey, maybe I should be studying with you. He's like, hey, Mr. New York, you're doing pretty well there, buddy. Well, it is amazing, though, what happens, you know, once jazz kind of becomes on the scene, and now there's a feedback loop, right, where classical composers are starting to be influenced. But because it's a whole different process of making music, then that gets back to jazz musicians to where, and, like, you know, Bill Evans is stealing voicing from Ravel and from WC,

not stealing, Bill, love you. Big shout to B.E. But seriously influenced by the way they were stacking chords, the way they were voicing things. Absolutely, absolutely. So that brings us to number three. Well, I just have one quick question. If we could linger on Revelle number two for just a minute.

I was thinking about, you know, the influence and then. And, you know, some of the kind of obvious things to a jazz musician that you'll hear in some of those beautiful Ravel orchestrations is like, you know, he'll hit like a dominant seven, dominant nine chord. And like, you know, as a classical musician, when you're going through, I mean, I know you guys are playing stuff way more modern than that, but also many things from before that period, too. Does that, like, I mean, is that like a jazz connotation or is that more of a modernist kind of a sound when you're in the middle of that beauty and playing that. And kind of part of that, you know, what you look back on, I guess it's kind of a harmonic revolution, really. Absolutely. Honestly, you know, depending on who you talk to in the classical world, a lot of people have hyper-specialized and have only lived in that world. So to them, it's just, you know, the first of its kind in terms of opening up that harmonic end of things.

But for people who know jazz music, that's, you know, that's the ABCs, basically. It was also a regional thing, too, right? I mean, it's a very French thing. You have, like, Cesar Frank was kind of the godfather of all this, before Reveld even, and people like Gabrielle Fouret and Poulenc. The French Impressionists, WC. Yeah. And they...

Van Gogh. He was... No, but they did. They used all those ninth chords, all those 13th chords. That was just happening in that region. That was part of that kind of hazy, textural, vibe that they would all produce and was very much classically based and it's very much classical music but you can see how the rules of harmonic structure you know going all the way back

before box time even you know they just knocked the roof off of that did that sound get out of France ever, like those 13th chords that's Basie, did that go anywhere? Were there like Norwegian composers doing that or anything? Edvard Grieg, it sounded like he had a lot of,

a pretty broad swath of influence, but he was a contemporary of theirs. And different, he had a different sound, but I hear what you're saying, actually. I think about it. So that'll take us to number three, and this is another French

impression. This is WC. Claude W.C., of course, has been listed as an influence by Miles Davis and, again, Bill Evans, and pretty much every modern jazz musician. Absolutely. Any pieces in particular that jazz musicians should check out? La Mare is probably his most famous orchestral work, and he would just, his use of color. Again, you know, you've had podcasts with Greg Hutchinson, how he talks about how you're able to produce different colors. colors and things just from the various usage of different drums being played together. Debussy was a master at just kind of creating this kind of base level, and then he would have these swells that you weren't sure where they were going,

and it would come in and out. Use of symbol is kind of what's coming through my mind. So a lot of drummers especially. Or symbolism. Both, you know? Absolutely, both. Literally, both. Such a symbolic use of a symbol there, Mr. Claude.

Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, just even seeing the way that you're, you know, describing Debussy, I think of the influence on Duke Ellington from that standpoint, orchestration, sound, percussion, you know, not even just like the blatant kind of harmonic or rhythmic things, but really that orchestra. Because, I mean, a lot of times, and if you, you know, I'm no expert on Duke Ellington, but I've heard a lot of his music over the years and play. it. And whenever, you know, as great as his writing was, when you think about his big band, what he did in terms of arranging for that particular ensemble, you really get into that

kind of master orchestrator thing above and beyond just, you know, we know Debussy is a great composer, but that orchestration stuff is just brilliant. Absolutely. And he was one of those composers, jazz composers who actually threw composed, much like Debussy or Ravel or any classical composer. You could read everything that he wanted on the page, which was pretty unique to Duke. And he knew music, too. He knew this. He studied this stuff, too. He was a real student of the game. So that brings us to number four, and this is one of my favorite composers. So I'm so glad that you, you know, decided to include him, because, I mean, growing up playing a lot of classical music, I always gravitated, even before I really got into jazz to the music of Beela Bartok.

Shout out, BB. What's up? Budapest in the host Okay, Wait, is he from Budapest? He's from Budapest, right? Or Hungary. He's definitely Hungarian.

Yeah, he was one who took angular, rhythmic, harmonic changes, everything. He would throw the kitchen sink at you. And he was one of the very first to do that. And he and Stravinsky, who will be coming up

pretty shortly in this conversation. We never give away. later numbers on here. This is the first time that's ever happened. Strahu. We'll get to him in a second. Bartok, I mean, you can hear his transition from his, from very straight ahead, more simple rhythm. And harmonic structure in his, for example, his first violin concerto. It's unbelievable. It doesn't sound like quote unquote Bartok at all.

Yeah, yeah. It's still good, though. It sounds extremely classical. But by the time he got to his second violin concerto, all bets were off and it was a completely different thing his concerto for orchestra is it was revolutionary it was unbelievable and then maybe i'm projecting a little bit here but i i always thought that there was like you know his as he got into i guess he was always doing the somebody got into it a lot later the use of folk songs on hungarian and romanian folk song absolutely and then huge influence on yeah but then like infusing them with his real modernist rhythmic and harmonic approach it was almost like

You know, we're talking about Duke Gallington again, but even Thelonious Monk, and using the blues, which is kind of folk, American folk music, and then placing it within the jazz idiom. Absolutely, absolutely. And that's something that before his time, or actually at a similar time, Mahler used. Oh, yeah. A lot of folk melodies all through his life. It was all autobiographical, and he was not above, quote unquote, using the most, you know, basic, simple tunes from. his youth, you know, that go back, you know, to just the village, basically. Right, right.

Too bad Mahler had such anemic orchestration, they're right. Yeah, and the fact that he used those folk songs for 98-minute compositions on top of that. And he would not only use them, but reuse them. Yeah. Put them in different scenarios and different orchestrations. You know, for me, when I think Bartok, the pieces that pop out that have been influential to me, and I think to jazz musicians, other jazz musicians that talked about are, the concerto for orchestra and the string quartets. Absolutely.

Or was it just one string quartet? No, he wrote six. Six. That were all unbelievable. Extremely challenging to play, but incredible. Sounds like you've got five to catch up on there, Adam. You'll hear it. It's been a minute.

It's been a minute, honestly. Yeah, I've got to get back on my Bartok string quartets. They're absolutely incredible. It's a game changer. It is. There was also the concerto for timpani. Was it? Music for strings, percussion, and chalettes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so dope. Incredible. The colors that he was able to produce were just phenomenal, one of a kind. Awesome. Well, so we'll move on here. This was going to be the big reveal. I tipped it off early. I'm sorry, guys. So this is I gore. I gore. Don't call me Igor. Sorry, Igor Stravinsky. Igor Stravinsky, one of the great composers of the 20th century, Total Game Changer again. Yeah, he really colluded on some wonderful brushes. music, I'd have to say. So, you know, everybody thinks of the firebird and the famous pieces.

Are there any maybe rarer cuts from Stravinsky that stand out for you? B-sides? B-sides. There were, you know, different pieces that played orchestrally. He's written all kinds of things. He's put things in different smaller ensembles that he stretched into larger ensembles. There were no hard and fast rules with a lot of his pieces. But like just last week, I was able to play a piece of his called The Soldier's Tale,

which has been put into many different scenarios in terms of involving dancers and having a narrator tell this story along with this septet, which was highly unusual. His use of, speaking of unusual uses of timbre, I mean, he would, this ensemble was violin, bass, clarinet, bassoon, trumpet, trombone, and percussion. You're not going to hear that every day. I mean, you'll hear it here. You'll hear it. Hey, bonus points for getting that in there. But hey, that is an extremely challenging.

but but incredible work and you know orchestrally speaking you know anyone's a side should include the right of spring right that that should be on anyone's top if not top five top ten list of all time and I mean speaking of being influential the jazz decisions the bad plus actually like recorded a version of very good very good interesting record you know version of it and I think it's like you know maybe some some classical theorists would say that's stretching things too far. But I think it's kind of, you know, to your point, Sean,

of like Stravinsky himself placed his music in different instrumentation. Yeah, he could dug it. Even as he wrote it for, say, he wrote a part for cornet, and then someone showed him while they were, you know, in the process of getting a performance together with him conducting ready,

they played it on the trumpet and asked him what he thought. He said, you know, whatever you like, you know. I don't really have an opinion either way. That's amazing. Well, I think, too, that there's, you know, what I hear in Stravinsky's music, I mean, now we're definitely getting into an area where there was heavy influence and hearing, and then Sturvancy lived in the States for a long time. And by this time, jazz was a thing.

Right, absolutely. And pretty diverse. It was very diverse, and it was the ABCs of American music. Right. And, you know, I know you'll hate hearing this, but in my mind, jazz music is in its own way American classical music. I mean... What you're talking about?

We love hearing that here. That's going to be our new subline. For me, I feel like the two should not be separated. I mean, I feel like there are skill sets on both sides that would be greatly influenced.

Adam, we've talked about starting... Wait, we did start a band. We did start. Shameless self-promotion of our... kind of fusing the two. Of our fusion. But I was thinking, too, on the... Stravinsky's like...

Like he, you know, saying, you know, obviously he's hearing a lot of jazz and you can hear a lot of that. But I love the way, like when he, he never incorporated jazz, like had a jazzy movement. There was just influences in his style. Right. Like he never did like a tang, tink to tang. Right, right. But he was, I mean, in terms of the sensibility, it was absolutely 100% a classical piece. But you couldn't help but hear jazz.

Yeah. Yeah. But in a very, like, cool and organic way. Absolutely. It was not forced at all. It stands the test of time for sure. Yeah. That's awesome.

Well, that brings us to number six, and now we're getting into some people that are actually still around and still making music. Now we've got to be careful. Yeah. They may be listeners of, you'll hear it. No, number six is one of my favorite composers of not only the 20th century, but this entry too, and that's Philip Glass.

What up, PJ? And, yeah, I mean, amazing visionary and talk about an original sound. You know, it's within a few seconds. you know, you're listening to a glass. He's very distinctive. He's very, you know, classical, but American. And I think by way of being American and a composer, jazz is part of that and an automatic influence. Yeah, I mean, any of us.

By the time he was making music, it was already the 60s. Yes. And so jazz had been established for decades at this point. And that minimalism. not only is used in, you know, jazz music, but pop music left and right. I mean, the influence is, you know. When I hear Philip Glass's music, I don't even think about, like, oh, this is classical music or this is an influence on jazz.

I think more about New York, you know, than that scene. Yeah. Because he was, there were jazz musicians in his scene, you know, that he was, you know, hanging out with. And it was all kind of like just a downtown New York. kind of thing. And when you think of New York, you can't help but leave off number seven. Just kidding. Leave off or leave on? Leave on number seven, we should say. It would be Steve Reich. That's right. Yeah. He's unbelievable. And speaking of a tremendous influence on jazz,

sampling not only harmonic and rhythmic things from jazz and classical cool, but street scenes and taking in just literal sounds from the street and the city and putting that into these classically through composed pieces. Yeah, all of the loop, the tape loop stuff, I think, is hugely influential and not just jazz, but modern electronic music, hip-hop. Hip-hop, everything. Yeah. And then also, I think the phases, piano phase, violin phase, for me,

are an amazing exercise and discipline of composition and what you can do with very small, subtle things. I know it had huge influence on, like, you know, jazz composers and third stream composers and all that, but I think in just American musicians in general, for sure. And I think it's the minimalist and, you know, I mean, I hate to even give it that label, but I think that, is that we allowed to call them that? Are they cool with it? Okay, good. Because I always think about now, like the minimalist hipsters who give away.

their TVs and I know it's a different movement from that. Tiny houses. Right. Yeah, Steve Rice probably lives in like some mansion in Bel Air, you know, with a whole bunch of stuff. No, but... 18 musicians always around. Tape loops, you know.

It's tape everywhere. No, but I think that that, you know, what's cool about, you know, Phil Glass, Reich, and then a bunch of, you know, others closely related and even lesser so related, like they started a movement in the same way the jazz. musicians did an American music movement and you know they're probably more aligned and seen in the classical world because that's where they go and have their pieces perform but they kind of did that American artistic thing of saying like we're going to create our own thing and I know there's a lot of European and Asian play you know doing their thing that are related to but I mean it's kind of like

its own little sub-genre there which is cool and now I mean it's to the point where their music who was sampling looping remixing things from the earlier part of the century are being sampled, looped, remixed, and re-kind of distributed through different ensembles. For example, we've got friends in Alarmal Sound, and they've done some incredible stuff. Yeah. With use of technology and their voices and their instruments and unconventional ways of kind of presenting these things. So that kind of is a good segue into. We usually like to add some kind of bonus for this.

So I wonder if you could talk a little about a little bit of. about young composers, if there's anybody doing anything now that you think is really like lighting you up as far as, I mean, it doesn't have to have a connection with jazz, but just, you know what I mean? It's funny you mentioned that. I feel like I'm sitting here with two of the more influential people. Dude, I didn't set you up for that. I was a nice setup.

We're not pointing at ourselves right now at all. I would say, Adam Maness. I mean, the great Adam Manus, the great Peter Martin. I'm glad I did that. Both seem to be extremely comfortable in any idiom in terms of writing. Another good friend of ours, Chris Stark, is doing amazing things. Christopher Stark is an awesome composer. One of my very closest friends also, Stefan Freund, I think, is doing great, great, great work.

And there are just a lot of great people not only in the world at large, but right here in our community in St. Louis. It's pretty incredible. I mean, I feel like in a lot of ways, yeah, that's great stuff. And, Sean, we want to thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. And, you know, as we say, if you keep your ears open, keep your ears brown, you'll hear it.

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