You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 7 Favorite O's and Tet's - #5

Episode Date: August 31, 2018

In this episode, Adam and Peter list their favorite combinations of ensembles in jazz. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm Adam Menace. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast. Daily Jazz Advice coming at you. Season two. Season two. That's right. That's right.

We're having fun. It's our first week back for season two. Feels good. Feels good, man. We're in the pod cave here. The pod cave. That still sounds weird to say, but it's exactly what it is. Podcave.

We should have Andrew take a picture of the podcave. Although you can go to YouTube and see all of these episodes. YouTube.com. www. www. YouTube.com. search you'll hear it. Yeah, subscribe to Open Studio.

Subscribe and like. What? Dang right. Yeah. So you can see, I mean, we're not that much to look at. No, but, you know, it's kind of get the vibe. We didn't, the other day, we got a lot of interesting and really positive feedback on our 12, oh, no, 14 sexiest jazz musicians.

There was note made that neither one of us made that list, but, you know, maybe V2, we might make, like, the 24 top. I don't know if I want to be on that list, man. That seems like a lot of work. I like donuts. So today we are going to answer one of our user questions. And of course, you can always go to you'll hear it.com. Leave us a comment, leave us a question, leave us a voice memo.

And this comes from Christian, and we don't know where he is, but that's okay. What's up? And he says, hi guys, as I'm a big fan of the sound of jazz sextats, three horns plus rhythm, would you mind spending an episode on your favorite jazz sex tests, also, sex tats, also touching upon topics like writing, arranging for this setup and why it's particularly challenging in terms of openness and ambiguities of sound and harmony, including also ideas on what to look for when writing for this setup. So first off, thank you for the question, and we cannot spend an entire episode on sex stats because we could only think of one. Yeah, but no, we had a great

idea to kind of expand on this a little bit. You know, we'll have a little adaptation. Yeah, a little adaptation. We do our own, you know, our own lists of seven, the time. And so we thought it would be cool for each number to go through. So like for one would be our favorite solo. For two, our favorite duo. Let me guess number three. Trio and so on. And we can, and you know, now that I'm reading this question, we could talk about sort of the, um, the setup and the arranging of these various scenarios. As pianists, we get to play all of these. That's right. We're included to every one of these seven parties. Yeah, I mean, trumpet players very rarely play solo. Very rarely play duo. Thank God.

Me. But yeah, we get to do all of these. And so I think we could shed a little light on. Well, yeah. And why don't we do most of our kind of arranging and light shedding for the sex set when we get to that one, since he was sort of asking about that. Sounds good. Yeah, sounds good. Cool.

Well, why don't we start with one instrument, solo? Solo. So this is the greatest solo performer on any instrument in any genre, in my opinion. That's Art Tatum, the great. Mike Drop. Art Tatum. And there's nothing else to say. he's a whole orchestra

sitting at an 88. Hold on, you just said there's nothing else to say but you're still talking. I mean, there's no other there's no debate is what I mean. Right. There's no,

there's no like, well, yeah, but this guy was a little bit better at, no. Right, that's true. There's no other better solo musician, I think,

that's ever lived. Right, and I mean, what a feat to be so entertaining to just your general listener. Yeah. And so impressive,

but also to jazz pianists. Yeah. Like nerded out inside. game, baseball kind of people that are just as wild. I mean, that's, that's the pinnacle. But just super, I mean, he must have been so fun to see live for, whether you knew about music or whatever. I'm sure seeing him live, you would be like, I'm in the presence of just an amazing human. And such, I mean, just a virtuoso, obviously, just the piano, take away the

jazz and everything, the technique, the mastery. And I mean, really, you know, piano is not the only solo instrument, of course. But it's, it's one that really lends itself. to being exploited in a solo manner. I mean, that's kind of right in our wheelhouse. It's the best solo instrument. It really is. There's no other instrument that can do. Unless you're on the beach in Brazil,

then guitar is a little better. Because the piano is so hard to wheel out there, you know. But even with the guitar as a solo instrument, you know, if you're going to play it on the beach in Brazil, you still need like a, you know, like a... If you sing like Zhao Geberto, that really helps. It does help. Right.

You talk about picking up chicks is basically what you're talking about, right? Well, I mean, yeah. Okay, cool. All right. We're still on a beach in Brazil, right? Of course. Okay, good. All right.

So now we go to duo because one plus one is duo. Oh, two. That's right. And so now this, now we're starting to get into not necessarily a gray area, but a lot of wonderful choices. Great, great options here. But kind of what popped into both of our minds immediately in coming up with this well-vetted list was something that I hadn't thought about in a while, but I think I heard it just recently. That's Bill Evans, Jim Hall duo, which is. Undercurrent.

Oh. Amazing album, start to finish. And I don't know how much did they play duo, actually. I know they played together on some other recordings I'm thinking of, but duo, I can't think of another situation. But maybe. I think they did two duo records together, from what I understand. And they played so well together.

You know, Bill Evans could have been a second place maybe as far as like solo. He's such a great solo pianist, too. And even some other, I mean, Bill Evans, Tony Bennett, what a classic couple of recordings there. And he's just, he's such a great listener, has such an amazing feel for the piano. And then Jim Hall, too, an incredible musician, incredible guitarist. That is a hard duo, too. That's not just like piano and saxophone.

Right. There's some, there's some potential for overlap there. There are, there's potential clashes in the harmony and in the timbre of the instruments. And they do an amazing job at making real art out of that. Cool. Yeah. All right. So what do we have for three?

Now we're getting into a trio. Now we're getting into some classic kind of. you know, I mean, there's groups. This is kind of the smallest of the large. Like a duo is almost not a group. Because it's two, you know. A duo is like, yeah. The trio is the first sort of group.

Now we're a band. Now we're a band. Yeah. Now we want to get paid. Yeah. Now two of you can talk crap about the other person. That's right. You can have alliances and allegiances.

Totally. You know, there's so many options for trios. Should we go right down the middle? You got to go. I mean, if any listener of this podcast would take a guess, you're going to guess the Oscar Peterson tree. That's what we always come back to. Oh, I was going to guess, Wham.

Weren't they a trio as well? I'm sorry. No, that was a duo. That was a duo as was Pierce. That's right. Yeah, British pop duo is the next list. Tage Agoooooooo. So yeah, Oscar Peterson Trio.

Banana Ramah. Screedy Polly. What do you know about that? Okay, Oscar Peterson Trio. Absolutely. Yeah, they're okay. Yeah, enough say. There are no banana ramma.

That's right. Let's go quartet. Quartet? Yeah, I mean, for both of us, this was the first one that popped into our heads, and that's John Coltrane's Quartet with McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, excuse me. And this is one of those incredible, and this is one of those situations where even though it's always referred to as the John Coltrane quartet, and he had, there's a little bit of personnel variation of his quartets over the years, but that when you say John Coltrane

Quartet, it really is about all four of those musicians and what they bring. together. I don't think there's any kind of, like, it could have been called, you know, banana-rama or whatever, and with those four personalities. I mean, John Coltrane in outside's presence in our music, of course, but almost in that quartet, he wasn't. I mean, what McCoy Tyner did, what Elvin Jones. Think about the sound of each one of those musicians individually, and it's no wonder that people describe it as just this mountain of sound. Yeah, yeah, and I mean, their contributions, it's almost like a symmetry of four coming together with equal kind of contributions in terms of, you know,

know, musically what was happening, and they really, you know, created much in our, I'm just looking ahead to five, too, created a template that's still in use and is probably, you know, much as, you know, Mozart and Hayden and then Beethoven with the string quartet, when you talk about the jazz quartet, it's kind of like John Coltrane with a saxophone and piano trio, really, you know, didn't create it, but they really solidified it, you know, in a way that it's a beautiful thing to jump on that train. Especially for, you know, especially for modern players. I mean, they're the standard, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So then that brings us to quintet. And we have the Miles Davis quintet. Hey, who? And this, yeah, right, we ever hear about that guy? And then I'm kind of thinking with Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, and Ron Carter, which is a little bit because we've certainly great quintets with, you know,

Sonny Rollins, actually a little bit, and George Coleman and different saxophonists. But I love that period with Wayne and Herbie and Tony and Ron, like where they, where they were really pushing the envelope. And it almost started to feel like from their early years of that rhythm section playing with Miles, where, like, they were kind of pushing things. And Miles was maybe holding on a little bit. Or kind of going with the flow, certainly. But, I mean, Miles loved that.

Like, he loved having younger guys who were kind of pushing things along. Well, I think the key to that quintet, what's really driving Miles there and driving everybody else is Wayne and his compositions and his just, you know, his vibe. Yeah. It carried through, actually, to our next one, which our first, our sextet, number six. Right, the actual answer to our listener question. Yeah, which is Art Blake and the Jazz Messengers.

Same thing. You know, Wayne's tunes in that band were so singular and help propel that band into artistic territory that they'd never been in. Same thing with the Miles Davis quintet. So, I mean, really speaks to Wayne Shortest. I believe they'd be a band member. This is a band. He wasn't the leader.

I know. Well, I mean, then even after that, you know, weather report, Yeah. So, okay. Can we get Wayne to be in my band? Right, right. Can we get Wayne on the You'll Hear at Pott? For real.

So, all right, so now sex debt, Art Blakey, jazz messengers, which has not always been a sex step, but I think a lot of its time was. And I mean, I think for both of us, that was exactly, especially talking about three horns and rhythm section. You think about the arranging. Yeah. And we've both written for that combination before. And it's like, you know, it's kind of like you go to copying those arrangements. And a lot of that was Wayne, Freddie Hubbard, too, Rudy Morgan.

Bobby Timmons, I mean, different characters, personnel kind of coming in and out, but that trombone, tenor saxophone, trumpet, front lines, and then of course with the rhythm section, that's a great classic sound that has, I don't think, has ever been done better. It's been imitated a lot and used that, Art Blake and the Jazz Messengers, as a template, if anything. You know, it's more challenging as an arranger than you might think. The three horns can be a challenge to get, I mean, what harmony did you use? do you use? You know, what extensions do you use?

You have three. And the way that the jazz messengers used it most often was in close harmony. And I'm trying to think of arrangements where they used real open harmony between those three, where there was more than an octave. Right, right. Between the trombone and the trumpet. Sorry, I zoned out there for a minute. Sorry, I'm talking about the challenges as an arranger with three horns, right?

Right. Well, I always think an interesting thing that I learned, and I'm not an expert on that arranging style, but I, it's big, because I haven't written for it a lot, but I listen to that group a lot more than I've ever actually used it. But when, some of the techniques that I do use are like, you know, Wayne, I'm thinking Wayne in particular, would use all three instruments playing together, maybe in octaves, maybe in unison, but the same notes for a while, and then diverge, you know, bo-do-de-dib-d-bang, and then you're hitting, like, it's such a great kind of a sound when you move out to that harmony. The other, and, yeah, still.

within an octave often. The other sound that I think of when I think of that harmony, when I think of that that group is this, this, when they do spread apart, is this. The cluster on the bottom, and then the higher interval, use it. Yep. I was thinking that as like 1-25 or 1-2-6 kind of a... Yeah, I mean,

they did some fourth stuff for sure, but... And that kind of parallel movement is great with those instruments, those three instruments. Yeah, all that. And you get that trumpet down in the lower register. It sounds great on this piano, too. Yeah, well, let's see, even better. Who needs the Art Blakey and the jazz messengers when you've got Kranick and Bach. Cranick and Bach, New York. Big shout out to Kranick.

Where's our endorsement? Long gone. Patton is older than the state of Missouri. That's right. Yeah, it was patented before our state was. So, yeah, I mean, what a great sound. And I'm just thinking of all those, you know, booby-de-de-be-da-da-da-da-da-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-and. And that's where you diverge.

Using the harmony as an accent almost. But having a lot of those melodies, you're right, in unison, and then bringing out those harmonies just at the right time. It's a real punch in the chops. Yeah, yeah. I kind of stole some of that for some orchestral writing, too. I steal it. I stole that all the time. It's great when you have everyone doing something together.

And then there's this built-in drama that's really emanating from the harmonic concept when you do that. Link it up with the melody and rhythm. That's great. All right. So number seven, where you got? Yeah, we had to go to seven. We really should have ended there because that was the question. And that was sextet.

But we love our sevens. We'll do what we want. We're like, we are like, I think we said this in season one. We are like weekend Chinese mainland gamblers that are going to that. What's the island, the Chinese island where they gamble? I have no idea what you're talking about. What do you do in your free time, man? No, I was actually in that part of the world once and everybody was.

Secret Chinese gambling island? Did I say secret? No. Chinese island for gambling. Hold up. We're about to come here. You got the good gigs, bro. Chinese

Macau Macau You don't know about Macau? I don't know about Macau It's an island where gambling is legal Chinese people I mean everybody goes there From Hong Kong wherever

Singapore And you go and get But we're like I think seven is What's the Chinese Lucky number? I don't know man I'm clicking

Clicking, clicking Google Google 8 Number eight Oh that's right I did know that I did know Yeah number eight

So we're almost Like Chinese gamblers on the weekend in Macau with our seven. We feel like, so basically we're pushing this to septet now because we feel we'd be unlucky ending at sex debt, right? That was a long way to say that we just prefer seven, but yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So, okay, favorite septet. This was a tough one because, well, it was easy and tough because I really only could think of one, but it was one of my favorite groups, and it was one of the most inspirational to me because it was like really during my development period. You were a little too young to catch this, except on recordings, and that is the Wintmars Salas septet, which, which reigns supreme among modern, certainly septets, but also just groups that were playing on it. And I'm trying to think I want to get the error right. Really, late 80s, I would say, to like early mid-90s. And then occasionally Winton's had like a

actually, what am I talking about? I did some gigs with that group. Now that you were in that septet. I wasn't in it. Oh, I see where this is going. I see you know what's so funny. I totally You guys go to Macau? We had a great week in Macau, man. It was great. Yeah, actually, yeah, I did do some gigs with them. So, but the whole thing, the instrumentation, trumpet, alto saxophone, tenor, saxophone, tenor, maybe doubling or alto on soprano or sopranino.

Google it. Okay. And trombone. Yeah. That's the four horns. And then, of course, piano bass and drums. And, you know, the classic went in septet. And, you know, I was thinking about that live at the vanguard.

That's some great recordings they had there that were recorded over several different engagements. Went in, of course, trumpet, Wes Anderson on alto saxophone, great saxophones out of Brooklyn, New York. Todd Williams, St. Louis's own, Todd Williams out of University City, Missouri, and Wycliffe Gordon on trombone.

Nice. And then there was always, the beginning there was some other little personnel like James Carter actually played for a minute there on tenor. And then later on was Victor Goans. After Todd wasn't there, and Walter Blanding made some appearances. And then the rhythm

section, mostly Marcus Roberts on piano, Reginald Veal, bassist, our friend, and Hurlin Riley on drums. And then again, a little bit of personnel, but that's sort of the classic septet. And Winton, I think he really, to me, as great as the quintet stuff was with Bramford, and I love those recordings, Black Codes from the Underground, and the quartet stuff, Jay Moot and live at Blues Alley. I think he really found his voice compositionally with that septet. He really loved those, that instrumentation. and those individuals, and he really got into this whole kind of Duke Allenton style of writing

for the specific instrumentalist instead of just for the instruments. Well, now we're getting into some real colors that you have as an arranger, you know, and being the brilliant musician that he is, I'm sure, enjoyed having that expanded palette, man. I would love to have a septette someday. Can I get Wayne in my septet? Right.

Can I get a one, what? Yeah. Well, there you go. That's our seven favorite owes and tets. I love that title that you came up with. contemporaneously and spontaneously and tets. Trioes, duos, solos, septets, quartets, yeah.

Why don't we give a quick recap for those you that are driving and you want to make some notes? We like to do that. Yeah, so the recap, number one, our solo artist, Art Tatum. What? Number two, the duo, Bill Evans and Jim Hall. What, what? Number three, the trio, the Oscar Peterson trio.

What, what, what? Number four, the quartet, the John Coltrane quartet. Number five, the quintet, the Miles Davis Quintet. number six the sex tete that's the art blakey jazz messengers sexy sex test here we go number seven the septet that's the winton marcellus septet yeah i think it's good yeah please go to you'll hear it dot com and uh leave us a question just like uh our man marcus here did christian sorry christian marcus yeah uh christian left us this question about uh sex tettes and if you

don't want your name be given out all around the world don't leave a comment because your name is going to be there most likely. Or make of one. Like remember, what was it, mouse, mouse grab, one, two, three. Yeah, that was a good question. Yeah, space ceiling, 07. Yeah. Right.

Jazz Loverd 101. Right. You know, yeah, we're just sitting here in our pod cave, taking questions. We are in the pod cave. Yeah. I just like saying pod cave. Oh, we've got a theme music. Yeah.

We're going to have to, you know, our positioning here, we're going to have to come up with some kind of, like, I cannot. I feel like a tyrannosaurus rex trying to play the bass. Yeah. We're going to hook the. that up for next week. But thank you guys for joining us back here. This is, you know, concludes our first week back, season two. He's closing the computer. He's shutting her down for the day. And we'll see you next week and you'll hear it.