You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 7 Hacks to Swing Harder

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

On today's episode, Peter and Adam offer their best tips for swinging harder.7 Hacks to Swing HarderListen (to swinging stuff)Play with swinging peopleRelaxPractice with metronomePractice with recordingsWalk bass lines/learn to play bassLearn to play the drumsToday's episode is sponsored by the Oxford American. The Oxford American is a magazine dedicated to documenting the complexity and vitality of the American South. Its award-winning annual music issue comes with a CD sampler and digital download - a must-have for any serious music fan. Recent issues have featured Nina Simone, Thelonious Monk, John Cage, and John Cage. Visit https://www.oxfordamerican.org/yhi today for a special subscription discount!Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel and leave a comment for this episode.Interested in more jazz advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase.Follow us on Facebook, Twitter & Instagram at:https://www.facebook.com/heyopenstudiohttps://twitter.com/heyopenstudiohttps://www.instagram.com/heyopenstudio See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey Peter, do you swing? Every time I go to the playground, my friend, swing's set for life. I'm Adam Mattis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It podcast. Daily Jazz advice coming at you. Today's episode of the Y'Lhear podcast is sponsored by the Oxford American. The Oxford American is a magazine dedicated to documenting the complexity and vitality of the American South.

Yes. Our charter sponsor. Our charter sponsor, we love the Oxford American. It's a quarterly magazine dedicated to Southern American culture. It's absolutely brilliant. This southern music issue has this awesome article about John Coltrane's roots in North Carolina. It goes to some churches to hear the music that he heard when he was growing up and how that influenced his music and compares it, actually, to the famous quartet. Amazing writing always, always in the Oxford American.

I mean, it's first and foremost a literary magazine. But it is a beautiful bridge with music and with the South and with culture in a way that it's very, very important. exciting I think will be very appealing to our you'll hear it listeners that's why we're so excited to have them as our charter sponsor because there's so much that intersects I think with what our listeners like so check out the oxford american you can go to oxfordamerican org slash y h i and we have some special deals there sounds good what are we talking about today today we are going straight tactical we're going straight uh you know um we're hacking we're hacking seven hacks to swing harder this is not as we've said before seven hacks that swing harder yeah

We could have done that list, but this is seven hacks to swing harder. I don't see grit your teeth and arch your back on here at all. Or eat barbecue or anything. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, this is really just... Although that does help. That does help. Although, that's more for like a slow swing.

It's like a slow swinging after you eat the barbecue. If you get it with that St. Louis-malasses sweet sauce on there. And it's really the sauce. It's not, you know, I'm off the... I'm hashtag plant-based. Yeah, yeah. you know, vegan slash vegetarian lifestyle.

But I haven't partaken in either. There's like a lot of tofu barbecue and things like that. But I think that'll pull you into the idas just like a nice rib barbecue or a chick-un barbecue. You know about chick-un? I respect your choices. So I'm not going to get, I'm not going to answer that. Okay. Because I want to stay friends.

There we go. But that's not really what we're talking about today. We're talking about practical things you can do. And as always when we talk about practical things you can do, number one, as usual. listen. Specifically listen to swinging stuff. Exactly. So we're going like these are sort of hacks.

And we always feel funny saying these are sort of hacks. I don't feel funny. These are ways shortcuts is what we're trying to say, which is actually kind of hard to do with this music. But maybe these will kind of help you go around a little bit. Yeah, I think so.

I feel a little funny when I eat Tempe barbecue. I don't feel funny using hack in this term. That's a hack to living longer, actually. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, so listen to swinging stuff. Now, this is like you can listen. We're always encouraging to listen to high quality music that you love, of course.

But if you listen to some really hard swinging stuff exclusively, that's going to be a little bit of a hack to get, like if you want to really work on your swing and swinging harder. Yeah. It's like anything. We're focusing in on that specific muscle group, just like you go to the gym and you want big arms. Don't do the leg exercise. Right, right. I mean, it's like anything else. If you want to get the feel from like fusion music, listen to a really hard hit.

infusion music. If you want to get the feel for swing, listen to what you think is the most swinging stuff you can find and seek it out. Yeah, and it's so easy. There's so much. We don't have to go through.

I mean, you know, obviously, there's certain people like anything, Oscar Peterson, Amad Jamal. Yeah, whatever swinging means to you, find it and really do some deep listening to it. Yeah, and focusing. Focusing on that particular part of the music.

Swing is just one element, and we think about it as rhythmically, but I mean, obviously, it's all part of a blues feel telling your story, melody, I mean, all these different things, but the specific kind of swinging groove

is what it really is that we're talking about is something that you can focus in as you're listening to. But listen to all those elements you just mentioned. It's not just the duration of the eighth note. It's the syncopation, how that player uses syncopation, how they phrase.

And even to solo architecture, right? Because some of the most swinging moments have been set up for you for like a minute and a half. I'm thinking of like that 10, 10 day You always referred to it. It's so swinging. Yeah.

Because that moment is because it was set up. You were set up as a listener. Right. To think it's even more swinging because the way they- Plus they're in a different groove. They're in like a non-swing, straight swing group, kind of that 12-8 feel. Right. So when it goes to it, it's like, ah, it just feels like, but they go right to it.

So that would be a good example of learning how to like start. Don't, don't eat. You know, a lot of people ease their way into the swing. They learn how to swing. But if you really want to swing hard, like you've got to know how to swing from the very first note. Totally. You know, I mean, think about a great bass player. And on that, you know, Ray Brown just, do-d-do-do.

He's not like, but-d-do-do. And then he gets to some swing. No, it's like, bam, right there. Because that's the kind of groove it is. Exactly. And you can listen to even things like range. You know, I always think there are swinging moments when someone's playing, you know, from varying up the range, right?

Someone's playing real low and then they do some kind of swing and lick up high that's even more effective because they use these different elements. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. So number two of our seven hacks to swing. harder is play with swinging people. Play with great musicians that know how to swing hard. What do they say?

You're the average of the three, the five people that you hang around with most, you know, kind of intellectually. Same thing with musically. You're going to be able to swing on average, you know, based upon now this goes over a long period of time and you have to listen and pay attention

and practice, of course, but you're going to become the average of the people that you're playing with. So if you're playing with people that can't swing, doesn't mean that you're not going to be able to swing, but it's definitely not a way to be able to swing harder. Man, there might not be anything more important for making real progress with this than being thrown in the fire with someone who's more swinging than you. And you realize like, oh, there are things I need to learn from this person.

Yeah. It can really open your eyes. And I mean, you know what? You should take gigs with those people, even if you have to make less money, even if you have to pay them part of your money. Because think about it, they're swinging hard. You're swinging maybe medium. So you're going to get better. They're going to have to battle to not get worse because they're going to become the average of you.

Yep. Now, hopefully their thing is stable. whatever. Yep. But I mean, you should, like, being able to swing hard is worth more than money.

So you should pay people if you have to. If you don't have gigs with hard swinging people, pay them to come over your house and just play with them for a couple of hours. It's just like, you know, hiring anybody that's great at what they do to teach you what that. That's really what it is. That's how you learn to do it is playing it live.

Yeah, you can listen to recordings. We're going to give you some other ways to do it. But this one probably should be number one, even over listen because you're listening and you're playing and you're learning. And it's like if you want to, learn about philosophy, you can read Aristotle and all the great philosophers, but what if you can sit down with a great philosopher and philosophize with him or her? That would be pretty good, right? I mean, that's what I do

every day here across the table from you. Exactly, exactly. Unfortunately, we're the average of each other philosophically. Number three. And Andrew, too. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So number three, I think is super important. We talked a little bit about this on our tension in the body episode last week. Relax. Yeah. I feel like I'm swinging. I just relax. No, you have to be relaxed, I think, to swing. Yeah. I think a lot of people's natural inclination is to tighten up and grit their teeth. I'm going to swing hard.

Yeah, you make that stank face. Yeah, swing is not usually an actual tense. Before you know, you're not. It's funny how we always do drums. We don't do anything piano. Well, like swing. You got that tipping, you know, you're skating. Yeah, yeah.

But tension does not equal swinging. Yeah. At all. So, yeah, it's quite the opposite. I think that if you're doing these other things that we're talking about and you combine any of them with relax, even as you're listening, Certainly as you're playing with people, certainly as you're practicing anything like that, then it's going to be sort of quicker progress with that because tension is the opposite of relax, I believe.

And that's always going to make progress with swing more difficult. You know what a good exercise you should try with this too is try playing some, like if you're a pianist, try playing some super swinging simple lines maybe up high on the piano. Speed beat, do biscuit, deep hop. Really try to play as swinging as you can and try to stay as a real. relaxed as you can because your natural inclination is going to swing and I'm going to make that face and whatever. Right. Don't do any of that.

Practice this in your practice routine. Like trying to swing like Count Basie. Right. You know, but being relaxed like you're playing, you know, Claire Dalloon. That could be a little bonus one. Practice swing with very simple lines. I mean, not like everyone's thinking like just endless eighth notes on the piano, but it could just be

bap. Boo bop. Well, see, I think this is, look at the face you're already making. This is why people, Relax, stank face. This is why I think when people do those little simple lines. They tense up and they try to make those simple lines swing harder. Relax and try to make them swing as hard.

I think a big part of relax too is relax your mind too. You know, this is not that difficult. It should not be that difficult. It actually isn't that difficult. Once you've listened and identified, it's just a language. Once you know what, if you know what that feel is that we keep joking about, but that swing feel, it is not that hard to play. We've talked about this before.

If you're tense or think in your mind, I can't do it or I have to live a suffering lifestyle first, Yeah, of course it's going to be hard. But, I mean, just intellectually, philosophically, relax. Don't force the swing. This is not brain surgery. Play what you hear. Just like we talked about with chicks' list last week. Like, wait for the ideas to come.

Don't play if you're not hearing anything. Let it swing, man. Let it bring. Yeah, just place it right in there. Another good practice technique in our number four here on our seven hacks to swing harder is to practice with a metronome. Oh, yeah. I like this. And a lot of people think this is sort of anti-swing because they're like, a metronome is robotic and robots can't swing.

First of all, do we know that robots can't swing? Anyone programmed a robot? I'm sure. MIT's working on it. I bet Jazz and Lincoln Center and MIT are doing like a joint project on that. Oh, man. When robots learn to swing, we're all out of a job. That's right.

Oh, boy. But yeah, practicing with a metronom, I love that one. Now, the, you know, one that you probably heard is with the metronome two and four. I definitely like that. It's right. It's right. Yeah. But it's not the only way you can do all four.

One that I like doing or used to like doing when I was a little bit more disciplined with my metronome practice. You sleep on the metronome? I'm not sleeping on it. I probably should sleep on it. with an on, you know, but is having it on just four. I was going to say the same thing. Yeah, yeah.

Hey, man. Yeah. So it's just like one, two, three, click. Because this can, you can work on your time. I mean, a metrono is never going to make you swing. Yeah. But it can help you to swing in time, which is important. Because that is a part of swing.

Unlike other grooves that can be more kind of forgiving in terms of give and take with the tempo. Swing's not really one of those at any temple. I had a conversation with a kid at Berkeley and all the Berkeley kids do like weird things like on beat four, but every four bars. And they try, like, or every two bars and every four bars on faster tempos, and they really try to line it up. That's stupid. No, I mean, good for the kids.

Yeah, I guess. Can they swing, though? Number five kind of goes with this, and that's to practice with a speaker, to practice with recordings, you can practice with a metron, but a speaker in a physical space. We've talked about this all the time on this podcast. Get out of the earbuds, get out of the headphones, if you can. Some people can't. But if you can and you can get the sound in the space, it's going to free you up. it's going to recreate actual playing environment.

Yeah. I think that's the closest you can get without having actual musicians or being on a gig, more so than headphones for sure. Totally. And that's a cool little hack that has really kind of opened up. I was lucky because I sort of did that. I guess I didn't have, I mean, I did have headphones. I don't know.

I was always sort of, I mean, I was learning stuff on the turn to get you and cassette or whatever. But, I mean, it's a great thing to just sort of immerse yourself. And it can help you relax and help you kind of fall into that swing a little easier than when you're practicing alone and you're a little bit naked there. and you can only hear yourself and you're like, look, we never like the way we sound. We always like the way a great recording sound. So it's a way to kind of be part of that

and immerse yourself in that and be able to hear and stuff that when, you know, it's just like when you record in the studio and you're like, wow, I sounded good and you like the way you sound with the whole group and then they solo just your piano mics and then you're like, ugh. But it doesn't, look, you're not playing in a vacuum. It's true. So it's all about what it sounds like. And this is the closest way at home you're going to be able to do that.

Number six is to learn to walk bass lines slash learn. to play the bass. That's good. That is very good. And I'd actually say that a lot of my understanding of swing, especially at, I mean, really at any temples, but especially at like, but doom, do do do, do, you know, kind of the came from, like, when I started to really understand the spacing and the way that a baseline is constructed and accented and felt with that one, two, three, four, but also the two, four

and, like, the balance between, you know, that every beat in a way that. piano we don't actually play so when you and look if you can actually learn it on base a little bit even better yeah but just walking on the piano or if you play saxophone or trumpet any of anything or vocals you know everybody can walk a baseline and don't just walk a baseline you know drums on the feather in the bass drum totally that's just a baseline don't sleep on the two to feel as well crucial part of swinging no no no yeah no i'm saying yeah don't sleep on it sorry you were like no i was giving you no i'm like yeah no don't sleep on it as friend of the podcast reuben rogers said that's sort of the springboard for the four feel, that's crucial element of a swing feel is the two feel.

Yeah. So that's the half note feel. Exactly. And get those long, luscious half notes going. Absolutely. You can do that on piano. Because then you have to have the imagination of the four. It's still there, but it's not explicit, you know.

And if you can learn to do that on your instrument, you're going to be able to then go to, because you're improvising over that, whether you're playing with a bass player or not. You're improvising over. That's the foundation of what this groove is, in fact. Number seven. Learn to play the drums. Now this one I think you really could get some benefit And look, this could be as simple as just a stick

Learning how to hold it somewhat correctly And playing on a symbol. Walk the dog. Walk the dog. Walk the dog. Wait, am I doing it right? The dog. Walk the dog.

Dang, tain. You're going to be so exposed with your time, with your feel, with your eighth note, with your quarter note. All of those things just from playing a ride symbol are going to expose how you're feeling the pulse. Play along with records on the drums. Like you said, even if you could just, do one limb, start there.

If you want to do that and the hi-hat, start there. If you want to practice feathering your bass drum, build that up, you know. Yeah. It can do nothing but help whatever other instrument. Check your local laws and regulations on feathering the basement. That's not, that's not legal in all 50 states, just so you know. It is not. But our friends all feather the bass drum in general.

They live in, you know, permissive area. Good. Well, this was fun, man. Let's do a little recap here. Do you mind? Yeah, no, let's do it. Number one? Listen.

We both love doing that one because we remember that one. We just talked over. each other for listen. Listen to swinging stuff. Number two. Play with swinging people. Number three. Relax.

Number four. Practice with metronome creatively. Number five. Practice with recordings with speaker. Number six. Walk bass lines. Maybe even learn to walk, play to bass a little bit. And number seven?

Learn to play the drums or at least the ride symbol. Basic ride pattern. I love talking about swing, man. This is great. Yeah. So the Oxford American for limited time you'll hear listeners can subscribe to the Oxford American for only $25. Visit Oxford American.

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Even the paper feels good. Exactly. I'm rubbing it on me. It feels good. No paper burnt. No paper. Love it. Thank you, Oxford American.

And hey, thanks, Andrew, our producer. Big shout out to Andrew. Yeah. Andrew K. If you have a tune, a recording that you'd like to hear at the end of the you'll hear it podcast to send it to Andrew at open studio network.com. And they'll hear it. Yeah.

And then tomorrow. What's up? You'll hear it.