You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 7 Levels of Jazz Snobbery

Episode Date: August 12, 2024

We all know there are different degrees to being a snob but Adam and Peter thought its about time we nail them down! Time to sniff out all the snobs and find out what exactly makes them tick.Audio only?? Look no furtherhttps://youllhearit.com/Unlock your FREE Open Studio trial to become a better player today.Have a question for us? Leave us a SpeakPipeCheckout courses from Adam, Peter and more at Open Studio🎹 Head over to our YouTube channel for a better look 👀.Follow us on Instagram

Hey, Peter. Hey. Grab a beverage. Okay. And do a little exercise for today's episode. You ready? Pinky's up. Yes.

Nose up. Ugh. And we sip. Jazz? I'm not a fan. I'm Adam Anis. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear It Podcast.

Music, Explored. Explored. Brought to you today by Open Studio. Go to Open Studio Jazz for all your jazz lesson needs. Peter, today's a very, very special day. We're bringing back the list of seven. Yes, we are, and you look snobby A.F. I feel snobby A.F.

We got Caleb on a mic finally. Caleb, you feeling snobby? I'm feeling very snob. Oh, that's producer's Caleb's voice right there. So we were just kind of sitting around eating lunch between podcast recordings. Yes. And we were talking about... We were talking about...

Each other, basically. There's going to be a lot of self-reflection in this episode, I feel like. We were talking about in our series where we're talking about different albums. We have one category that's the snobometer, right? Where we talk about... Snobometer or snobometer. It's either one. Snobometer or snobometer. And it's about how snobby is the album, right?

Where would it rank on a snobs ranking, on a jazz snob's ranking? And then we talked about how, well, there are different kinds of snobs. Yes. And so... Then we pushed that into only seven different kinds. Yeah, before we knew it, we had a whole list of seven. Peter got on the whiteboard, and so... Whiteboarded this bad boy up.

We did. We drew it up. And so we thought we would do a little episode here on the seven different kinds of jazz snobs. Now, this is going to be, I think, this could hurt ourselves because we're definitely on a few of these, Peter. You and I both. We are here to offend. Let's be clear about that. Producer Caleb is on at least one of these.

Yes. And we've got lots of friends that are multiple, I think, multiple rankings. And you can be about to be former friends. Maybe. You can be a different kind of jazz snob depending on the situation. depending on where you are in your life or career. I've been a few of these. You've been a few of these.

Some of them are fun. They're all fun. Listen, snob isn't a bad word either. Like when we say our snobometer, is it something that Ethan Iverson would like? We hold Ethan in some very high esteem because he's got such great taste. So consider these kind of a mark of affection

for those who get told that way. Well, some of them are going to be a mark of shape. We'll get to that. We thought it would also be fun. I was trying to be diplomatic and you threw that right in the girl. Well, you know, that's for each person. One man snobbless, you know. I was wondering where are you going to go with that.

Yeah. We're going to reveal these in reverse order just to heighten the impact. We're going to count them down. Well, yeah, I'm trying to be a snob about it, buddy. Oh, good. Actually, we need to shift into judgy mode. We keep talking about being snopped. We're about to be judging.

Every, Peter, every single time we go to judgy mode. Yeah. It doesn't work out for us. We're not judgy kind of guys. Okay. Not snoppy kind of guys either. Remember the OG versus IG series? That's true.

I mean, it was fine, but it's like it's not our wheelhouse. Let's get into it on our snobometer scale of jazz snobs. Okay. Let's talk about number seven first. Well, we'll talk about number seven because it's the impetus for the whole list, really. Right. It is the intellectual jazz knob. This is the Ethan Iverson. The prototypical.

Prototypical. This is your jazz intellectual, public intellectuals. Yeah. Bloggers. Bloggers. Musicians who write about the music. comment on the music and are... Nate Chinin, perhaps, would be in this category.

And would definitely be in this category. As would any, I think, major publication, jazz critic or writer. Or anyone wearing a berate that talks about jazz? Well, there's definitely some musicians that would fit into this category. I would think, like, in the public intellectual sphere, you've, of course, got Ethan,

you've got people like Jason Moran, who writes some beautiful commentary on the music, Brad Meldow, with his incredible, liner notes. You put people, all kinds of people who have written about either their own music or their contemporaries' music or are commenting on the music in general,

I think fit well into this. Do we give a little more pass to the ones that are musicians? I feel like we do. We 100% do. Like when someone like Ethan or Jason comments on something, they hold more weight because they're actually doing it.

They sound great. They're both great writers, too. Yeah. I would throw into the mix to Joshua Redmond, low-key, he's kind of an intellect. He wants to be the intellectual anti-snob. I think Winton is going to show up on this category as well. Witton Marsalis.

Yeah, he is. Probably on several of these categories in that he is like kind of the face. And actually, I would even put Christian McBride as an intellectual snob. In some, I mean, he's not that, you know, sort of vibe. But he does do some very thoughtful commentary on the state of music. So I think the OG for this, the really the defining master of the intellectual jazz knob, that award has to go to Mr. Stanley Crouch.

Agreed. Okay. Yeah. The dearly departed, wonderful guy, wonderful snob. Nat Hentoff, maybe. Oh, Nat Hentoff. Ooh, jazzy snobby. Snobby, jazzy, snobby.

Boomer, too. We got some boomers on the list for sure. Yeah, yeah. But I think, yeah, Stanley Crouch. But I think Stanley Crouch would have said that he's not, that he's more of an anti-snob. So these are tough categories because a lot of the people will say, including ourselves, perhaps.

Yeah. Are we, I don't, I don't think I'm an intellectual jazz knob. You're on the cusp of it, but you're on a cusp of it. But you're on a cusp to where we are heading next, which is number six. Wait, we've got to talk about you. We're going to talk about each of us for both of these. Do you think that you're an intellectual jazz? Definitely not.

I think you kind of are. If I'm on the cusp, you're, you're on the precipice. I'm too Midwestern. I just am. Right. Yeah, it's not, it's not, I don't think it's my vibe. But we're heading to our, I think, where we are in this, which is the sort of, which is the cousin of the intellectual snob

and this is the what you normally would have called the pop intellectual snob but now we're going to call the YouTube social media snob right this is where I think our wheelhouse is right so and we're doing it right now

which is this is this is YouTube stompering I still don't know what prognosticating means it's why I can't be an intellectual snob but I can be a dumb Instagram snob you know what I'm saying so this is going to be us and a lot of our colleagues

on music and jazz and theory, social media. People like, I think the king here would be like, you're Rick Biotto's, your Adam Neely's, your Amy Nolte's, you know, all of these incredible artists who are also incredible storytellers, incredible people to talk about how music is made and situations around different forms of music. Rick is so good at that.

Adam Neely is, I think, brilliant at telling stories around music. And they're both snobby. And they're snobby in their own way. And this also, I think, would go into people like Jeff Snyder and Noah Kelman and Nardi Sol for sure. He's like adjacent to this category. And then some of the young ones on the come up, you got your Patrick. Well, they're not that young, actually, but they kind of are Patrick Bartley. Yeah.

Maybe Emma Cohen. Is he a YouTuber snob? Yeah. He might be adjacent snob. Jimahigis, I think we're going to put into this category. Yep. The young woman who plays synths all over the place. Right.

Kind of a synth snob a little bit. Definitely a synth knob. Fusion snob. Yeah. Yeah, no, this is an interesting group because Adam Manus, are you the reigning or soon to be king of this little? Of the YouTube snobs? Yeah. YouTube jazz knob.

I don't think so. I don't think so. You're having a moment. Rick has taken me out lately. No. But I mean, Rick Biano doesn't do. Amy is on top of the hill. I actually think Amy is the least snobby out of this.

She's obviously a great jazz YouTuber jazz piano. Yeah, she's not as super snobby. Her attitude is in it. No, I guess not. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to see she has, she has some very,

like, clear, uh, like ideas. Yeah. About how, like she was just doing, she just dropped that great video about like,

you know, don't learn music with the, you know, basically the light up MIDI keyboard on your videos, right? Like, as a YouTuber, like she doesn't want that. So that could,

that is in the, that's definitely like a YouTube snob thing. That's like a snob thing. Like, we do not, I've done two videos where I've done that. And each time I wanted to take a shower afterwards. It's like, we call it, around here we call it the dopio.

The dopeio. Because it's like, you know, the two in Italian, but also it's kind of opio-ish. You know what I'm saying? But a lot of people love that, but not for us. What about the jazz meme folks? Do they fall under this category? Jazz memes folks might, yeah, kind of snobby. And your boy?

Glorbus. Who I just got exposed to today. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe not snobbing. That's jazz brain rot, I think, technically. All right, let's move on number five. Yeah. Okay.

So this one, we kind of wrestled with what to call it, but I think we might have found. the right title, but we're going to have to dig a little deeper. This is the J. Dilla snob, we're calling it. The J. Dilla snob, yeah, yeah. This is the producer, the beat maker. Yes. Yeah.

But there's also a little bit of an overlap into, like, their snobbiness could be based around, like, you have to get the perfect Rudy Van Gelder's snare drum sample for your beat. And it's got to be just like this amount behind the beat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And would Jay Dilla approve? And don't talk about J. Dill unless you're, you know,

unless you've been vetted by it. They're never tipping. Never. They're never tipping. They can tip them. Some of them can tip it. They wouldn't dare. No, no, no, no.

But they're always swinging. They're always swinging. They're not tipping. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Flurries might be thrown around in this category. Flurry snobs? Flurry snobs. But we're talking about folks like Robert Claspur, friend of the pod.

Wouldn't he be in the Jay Dillis snob? Yeah. I mean, he could be in a couple of them. He can tip. But when he falls into this thing. He's also kind of like, we don't have this category, but he would fit in like, jazz celebrity snobs. You know what I mean?

I can't hang in with Don Cheadle. You know what I'm saying? Right, right, right, right. Not a lot of those kind of cats on the scene. That's right. Not a whole category. J.D. Beck and Domi, are they in this? There would be in the J. Dillisnob?

Yeah, for sure. They get a little snob. Yeah, yep. Okay. Kiefer. He's an aspiring Jay Dillis snob, I'd say. Thundercat. Mono Neon, that whole scene. Yeah, yeah. I could see Kiefer going in a couple of these different.

He's aspiring to get into, and has the skills to get in a couple of these. He could have been in the YouTube snob. Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go in number four. Okay. The record collector snob. Yes. Dusty, AF.

The records and the person. The records and the people. They're dusty. They got a whole room full of vinals. Yeah. They got a whole room full of CDs. Yeah, but only now that's, I mean, they were the ones, you know, yelling at the cloud about CDs when they came out. Yeah.

But now they're old and dusty enough that they're for them. They're for the CDs, yeah. And if they do list, they don't necessarily, they're not like Ludd. If they consume music via a computer or phone, it's not going to be streaming, though. It's going to be purchased on iTunes Music Store. With the full, like the full, they have a whole drive. Yes.

Several hard drives. Yes, because there's overlap with you can't have your stuff in the cloud because the man is monitoring you. Right. And also they want that high quality audio. You're forgetting the file type, though. File type is huge. Oh, yeah.

The Flack guy? Yeah, yeah. That's right. They only use the Flack. Yeah. Flack away. So you made a good joke, you said the file size is huge. Literally is huge.

They're also, if you say like, oh, yeah, that Ornett record from 66, they'll be like, which press actually it was recorded in, yeah, they know all the, you're adjusting the glasses already. I don't have any glasses on today, but they would, they would be checking their glasses. And I think that was recorded in the August. It's the third reissue. I don't want to hear it. Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rudy Van Gelder didn't bless that, but the second time, the third time he lost his ears. These are also label snobs, right? So they would be like, I subscribe to Nunnuch, so I get all of their bespoke packaging. I get the first pressing. Yeah, yeah. ECM, they only listen to ECM. Yeah, this group I'm not a huge fan of.

The record collectors I love, because those are some of the most knowledgeable, but also soulful, just loving the music. Being, record collecting is like owning a boat. I don't want to be the one that owns the boat, but I want a friend that owns a boat so that I can go. on his boat. I like, I am friends with many record collectors so that I can enjoy the fruits of their obsession, even though I don't have the same thing. But the, but the actual label snob, which is kind of, you know, like a subgroup in here, I'm not crazy about sometimes because they'll say stuff that I think is dumb. Like, you know, well, Monk on Riverside, that's the only, that's his only great albums are on Riverside. Like, they almost put too much weight on the record

label and the sound. And of course, all that is important. But I'm like, I'm more interested in a monk snob which will probably be getting to as well. You're getting to for sure. But sometimes they take the, you know, blue note records, that's the only great records ever made, you know. It's like, speaking of dusty, Peter, we got the NYC snob.

This is a classic jazz musician snob and they are, I mean, I would have assumed by now with globalization and the internet that the NYC snob would be sort of a dying breed, but they are, they're coming in hot still. They're always come and go, there's different generations, but they kind of remain constant. They're not too concerned with anything that doesn't happen outside of New York City.

No. Both from, like, leaving the city, playing outside of the city. They'll do a European tour. Right. Yeah, they'll definitely. They'll go to Europe before they go to Jersey. They'll get to Europe before they go to Portugal. But then they're going to come back.

They'll go to Europe before they go to the Midwest. That's right. 100%. And then they're going to go back to Brooklyn and then they're just going to play. And, I mean, this is, this is classic. Let's name some names. because you're a former NYC resident. I would put, I mean, our buddy Emmett would be Emmett Cohen.

I mean, he's like a NYC. He's coming on NYC legend status now with this Harlem apartment and the Emmett's Place thing. So that's like a no-brainer. But I don't know. Like there are loads of musicians who are only concerned with music being made in New York City. For good reason, by the way, there's a lot of great music being made in New York City. But like people who only live in Manhattan and never leave it, It can be a little bit of an insular place.

Right. There was the whole downtown scene in the 80s and 90s. I'm not sure how hot that is from what it used to be. Yeah, I don't think there's as much of a mark. The John Zorn scene and all that stuff. Yeah. I think a lot of the clubs, I'll throw you out some NYC snob clubs. Oh, yeah.

I love a snob club. Of a forgotten era. Sweet basels. Oh, yeah. McHale. Hell yeah. Cleopatra's need. What you know about clear?

The first club I ever went to in New York City. What was the one, the first one I played there was the first club I played in with Betty Carter was, Fat Tuesdays. Fat Tuesdays. And then you got like the 55 bar, which was going until kind of recently, wasn't it? What do you know about the Oridium? The Oridium, both locations. Yeah, the Arridium.

Yeah, there's a ton. And then, I mean, I think the ultimate New York City snob clubs, although maybe they're viewed more commercially now. Well, the Village Vanguard. That's everybody. That's both the most commercial. It's not commercial, but it's like your snob. It's almost become so great that the snobs turned against it a little bit. It's like seeing the Statue of Liberty at this point isn't.

You got to go there. You got to see it. If you go to New York, you got to see it. Right. But Smalls and Mesro have kind of supplanted. Fat Cat back in the day. Yeah, Fat Cat for sure. Good stuff.

New York City snobs. I love it. Ron Carter. Is he a New York City snob? I think he's the avatar. The maestro. But he's, but he also travels all over the world. I know.

I think he's like the king of New York, though. You know what I mean? Like he's, yeah. Upper West Side. Okay. Next we've got our... Number two. For those who are counting it home.

We are counting it down. And we do have a bonus, an honorable mention. But our number two... Actually, before we get to number two, Caleb kind of gets the camera. While you're watching this video, hit like and subscribe.

We do this kind of stuff all the time. Hit like and subscribe to the channel so that you know when a new video drops and when we're going live, which we go live all the time. Yes. Okay. Bam.

Okay. Okay. Number two. Our generational snobs. generational snob. If you've ever used the phrase, music today, and what happens after that is very negative.

Something negative comes to. Or they don't make music today. Of course. You are a generational snob. If all the music you like stops after you turn like 26, which happens with a lot of folks, you might be a generational snob.

If you haven't heard any record in the last five years that is, you think is good, from a musician, who is relevant from a younger musician, you might be a generational snob. If you're a young person and you only listen to things

in the 40s, 50s and 60s, you might be a generational snob. You're just born at the wrong time. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that the only like kind of overlap with this that sort of changes things is with the YouTuber snob

and a generational snob. Because we're kind of in danger of this because when we listen to some of the newer, like we listen to a lot of newer stuff because we're professionals here. We're running a show. here. And we got to keep up with what's happening. No, I think we're both, though, really interested in what's going on, but then we've, you know, analyzed some things on the channel

here where we've gotten into a little bit of like, this isn't like, you know, what it wasn't all in the old days. Sue us. We love classic jazz recordings, right? He does. And then like you're Rick Biotto. He gets into that. He's kind of built a little bit of his persona based upon that. He literally had a thumbnail the other day. Old Daniels. Like with him outside, yelling at the cloud. So there was that. The only thing that bugs me about all that stuff is like oftentimes

those folks who will go on like an old guy tangent, old man yells at cloud tangent, they'll often like couch it with like, well, yeah, I mean, I know that it looks like an old man yelling at a cloud, but it's true, you know, they go into this and it's like, no, is it though? Like, didn't

your grandparents think Led Zeppelin was pure noise because they had distorted guitars that sounded like the amplifiers were broken? You know what I mean? And now we're like, rock music isn't like it was when we had Led Zeppelin was. I know, it's crazy. But yeah, I always, it happens to all of us, you know, like, there's definitely many times where I'm like, I just don't get this at all. Right. But then I'm like, this probably isn't for me. Yeah. And I don't need to get it. Like, you know, that's,

that's how it is. Our brains kind of cut off at a certain point. Emotionally, we're not as attached to music as we were when we were younger. Newsflash. That's just how it is. And you have to, it's not even just about staying relevant. It's just staying connected with the, the transformations that are inevitable. And ultimately, beautiful in this music, I think. Like, I remember, and this is not to call him out, he's one of my favorite pianist and people. He's definitely a jazz snobb, the great Marcus Roberts,

maybe like 10 years ago. 10 years ago? Yeah, maybe, I don't know. Sometime when I was in my early 40s or something, I was playing a gig with Christian McBride, and we're in Florida, Tallahassee, Florida, where he lives, and he came, or maybe it was Jacksonville, but he came to the gig, which was cool.

And, you know, because I really looked up to him when I was coming up and followed him. He helped me a lot when I was a team. teenager. But if you know, Marcus, he can be a snob about jazz, you know, especially back then. But he came to the gig and he came backstage after. We were kind of, it was a nice reunion. I hadn't seen him in a while.

And he's talking, he knows McBride and everybody that was there. We're all kind of gathering around him. But I remember him saying, he's like, man, I didn't think there was any young cats out here still swinging. But, man, Peter, I knew. I mean, in fact, you know, you, Eric Reed, Anthony Wanzi, see, that's some young cats coming up swinging hard. and I'm like, yeah, we're all in our, like, 40s.

So there is that thing of, like, a lot of times these generational snobs, like when they think they're staying relevant, it's to talk, you know, it's like, oh, no, I don't just love West Montgomery. Have you heard Kurt Rosenwinkel, this young guitar? He's amazing. Yeah, he is amazing. He's also 50 years old. Exactly.

So that's like, that's a little bit of a trap that we all want to try to avoid if possible. It's an easy and understandable trap. And I think the older you get, you just have to keep reminding yourself that it'll all be fine. Kids are making great music. Yeah, yeah. So before we hit number one, which is, is this going to be anti-climactic? I don't know. I don't think so. I think this is a deserving number

one for the most jazz snobbery ever. Yeah, and this was what was sort of the impetus for us to do that we were talking there a minute ago. Okay, number one is the institutional slash big band snob. The institution we've kind of shoved them together. We're talking about your

Berkleys. We're talking about your any kind of music conservatory. Your Juilliards. Ooh, jazz of Juilliard. Very snobby up there. We're talking about your Stan Kenton's. Stan Kenton snobbers. That might go into the honorable mention too.

Yeah. Because I think there are, we'll talk about that in a minute. But people who are into Stan Kenton are like really into Stan Kenton are like really into Stan Kent. At the exclusion of, yeah, I mean, yeah. But the institutional side of this maybe at least it used to be, this might be showing my, my generational snobbery, but it was like the North Texas, one o'clock big van. That's the sort of stand.

Mancanton and like everything big man and like you got to execute and like you know that sort of connection with the institution because big bands by necessity had to be institutions even go back to Duke Gallic I mean there's yeah Kellington snobs well of course but I think also just the sort of like music school snobbery is yeah a foot and a bound you know you got your Indiana universities hey I went to the new school it's a special kind of snob yeah at the new school also that's a NYC snob is the yeah is the lower Manhattan New School snob for sure. Right. And the Juilliard Jazz is a little bit of an uptown but still New York City.

Manhattan School of music has their own particular waft of snob up there, yeah. See, I like the Rutgers and the Jersey schools. Like they're NYC adjacent but they don't have as much snobberson. William Patterson. They're like the underdog snobb. Exactly. Yeah. There's some good music coming out of William Patterson.

Juilliard is, well when I was there, I was in the there was no jazz department. So I was in the regular classical apartment, which is quite possibly the snobiest location on the earth. You couldn't have gone. to Curtis, Peter? What's wrong? Didn't practice hard enough? No, but Curtis is like, Curtis is like layered in with like, you know,

people that are like on another planet as well. So it's like, they're like above snobbery. You know, Juilliard is just... Shut up for any shrubs. But I mean, yeah, I mean, Juilliard, I think, and then that's being layered in with Jazz and Lincoln Center, possibly a snobby place a little bit. Yeah, I think you can, if we lump any group into a snobbery,

it would be Jazz at Lincoln Center. Love you, Jazz at Lank. Lincoln Center, but they've got a very... But your website is jazz.org. Jazz. But they, but also, they are, they have a, they have a stake in the ground for what the music is and maybe isn't and what's the right stuff and the wrong stuff. And I think that's the epitome of, uh, of jazz.

You know, we need that. We need all of them. We need all of that. And that synergy with Juilliard and jazz Lincoln Center makes sense. I mean, it's all. We also need the opposite of that. We need people who think that institutions that think that all of that is just antiquated, old school, you know.

Gormous. Yeah, we know. That's two shoutouts, though. We've got to be careful. He's on my mind. I just, he's, I don't even know.

So let's talk about the Berkeley jazz snob, though. Because that's a little, I think a lot of... The Berkeley jazz snob is my favorite. That's the, that's probably the largest number. There's so many,

and they're so varied. Yes. And it's a, it's a snob within a snob because there's the burt. Like, Berkeley is not really about jazz predominantly. Like, that's a snobber.

Well, you can have pop snoms at Berkeley. in engineering snobs at Berkeley and songwriting snobs and all kinds about Berkeley snobs in general. The biggest thing they're snobby about is Berkeley. Shout out producer Caleb, right? The only one on this pod that attended that. I've been through that institution. I've done workshops, but I did not attend it.

No, but the thing about Berkeley snobs is they're kind of the anti-snob because they're kind of like, oh, we can do whatever and we're just, you know, we're here. But the one thing that always comes up when you're talking to a Berkeley person is Berkeley. Yeah. That's going to come out. It's like an East Coast. But yeah, when you start talking, it becomes, are we talking about Indiana? Are we talking about Berkeley? How music theory are we going to get here? Yeah. Well, when I was at Berkeley, how many times does that come up? You know? Usually people say, I went to school in Boston.

And then you get there yourself. You know, if you want to ask the question. It's like Harvard. Yeah, were you studying drums at Harvard? Yeah, went to MIT. For drums? Yeah, shout out Berkeley. Okay, our honorable mention. Isn't it like half of our downloads for this pod from

Burley? Yeah, from that part of Mass Ave. Shout out. Shout out. No, again, like, it's all, it's all good. We're all our particular brand of it. But this honorable mention is one of my faves, Peter, because it's a musician-specific snob.

We mentioned Stan Kenton snobs. I think that's a great one because they get super into Kenton and know all of the different arrangements and different band configurations. Yeah. I think there's definitely... Woody Herman. Woody Herman.

They're 100% of Woody. Herman snobs. 100%. I think there are monk snobs for sure who know every monk tune, every monk recording, all of the little details.

There's some of my favorite. Mingus snobs are there, for sure. Mingus, I think, is even bigger in some ways than monk. Yeah. Because they've got a little bit of an underdog.

Like, I think with monk snobs, because he's had, his music has had some commercial success. Yeah. Although Mingus has, certainly, too, but there's always a little chip on the shoulder.

with the Mingus snob, I think. Probably justified. There is also, I think, piano-specific snobs, Bill Evans, for sure. Every time we mention Bill Evans, we get the Bill Evans crowd riled up about something. That's probably the biggest. It's not necessarily an exclusionary

because I think Bill Evans' snobs are into, like, Barry Harris. They're just super into Bill Evans there. But if we don't mention Bill Evans, no, they're not into Barry Harris because Barry Harris one time said he didn't love Bill Evans. Oh, really? They don't like Barry Huss.

So they don't like, sorry. But there's also, I don't know if you ever... Have you ever met any Art Tatum snobs? Lots of those. Yeah, my father. Your father's an Art Tatum snob? That's a good one. Oscar Peterson snobs.

Are there... So, okay, here's a good one. I think there are more anti-Oskar snobs. Right. And anti-Herbie snobs than there are Herbie and Oscar snobs. I don't think people who are into Herbie or Oscar are snobbish. I think they're more generalist. That's true.

Like us. Like us. Well, I would say that's true for anti-Oskar. I don't know about anti-Herby. Well, I'm just kind of circling back to Ethan Iverson. Is he anti-Hurby? He's not anti-Hurby, but he has written about how every piano player in the 90s in New York was trying to sound like Herbie, essentially.

Which is true. Yeah. Which is not a lie. But I do think there is some, like, everybody wants to sound like Herbie. And there are people who are kind of like punk rock about that. I'm going to push back on that. There used to be when I was coming up, there was a lot of John Coltrane snobs. I've noticed that's changed.

There was a whole religion. Yes. But that's shifted more in terms of tenor saxonists, I think, to the Wayne Shorter snob, where it's kind of like, I hear a lot of the younger players like, oh, Wayne, Wayne, like they're not talking about, they're not snobing out about, it's almost like coal chain. Yeah, of course. I feel like amongst saxophonists, I mean, it's Chris Potter, isn't it? Oh, yeah. That's true. That's the Chris Potter snob is. That kind of picked right up from the Michael Brecker. Yeah, Michael Brecker, Chris. Was there a baton? There was probably a baton somewhere. Cecil Taylor snob. They can be violent. They can be violent. I'm just saying. Why am I blank?

Who is the amazing fusion drummer in the 70s? Billy Cobham. Billy Cobham. But are they snobs or are they just like acolytes? They might be acolytes. But they can be snobby. They can be snobby, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do you think? Caleb? Snobby in what respect. Oh, yep, that is snobby. And that they're exclusively like into just Billy Cobham and like think that it's, you know, I think that Dennis Chambers, Billy Coblum,

even Lenny White. It's all like a kind of area. Zach J. Jeanette kind of like is in both worlds, you know? Yeah. So like a fusion drummer snob kind of thing.

Yeah, like they play jazz, but they would also play Woodstock. That's right. They're bigger than jazz. Well, that's kind of like fusion. You mentioned fusion.

I think in guitar or even more than drumming, we get into some snobbery. We're talking about Alan Holdsworth. Now, cult practically. That's a cult. Yeah.

Yeah, where is the line between snobbering? He's incredible, but that's definitely... Have we mentioned anybody here that it's not incredible? No, they're all incredible, but Holdsworth has his own very ravenous crowd, for sure. Yeah. But is the ultimate single artist snob group, at least for piano, wouldn't it have to be Barry Harris? I mean, you're talking about a cult and a following and a school and a religion almost. I know you're thinking of our friend.

Chris. And he's not a snob. He's almost at number six, though, of like a YouTube or an intellectual snob. Like, he's in that, like, people are snobby about his ideas, his pedagogy more than they are, even about his plane. He's kind of a New York City snob. He's kind of a new, well, he's playing this. Oh, you know who I forgot for New York City? Oh, we got a bunch that we could have, Peter Washington.

Oh, hell yeah. Kenny Washington. Anybody named Washington. Bill Charlop. Bill Charlap. Yeah, yeah. And low key, even though he hasn't lived in New York in, like, 20, we got to. 20 years, Greg Hutchinson, kind of in New York, because he's from New York.

Like, any of the, and Kenny's from, Kenny's his uncle, his former uncle, you know. I love it. And, yeah, I mean, that's some, Peter Bernstein? New York City snobby person, a beautiful person. Yeah, I would never. But he's a very provincial upper west side, New York City bespoke, like, that's his, he's a New York City guy. I don't know, he's too warm for. He's very warm.

Greg's warm. That's true. Kenny's warm. But that's the other thing, New York, they're like Brooklyn. Kenny is Brooklyn. yeah sirs Peter is yeah

okay we're really personalizing this is fun Peter I feel like we snobed out on our favorite snubs yeah please leave us

in the comments below if you're listening to the pod we definitely miss some people's favorite snobs and there's gonna be snobs in the comments

which is great yeah get your snobbery on go to the YouTube comments even if you're listening to this and just let us know what you think is that maybe we got

some of these out of order we did try to do them from least snobby did we do that well we started with the I don't really care, to be honest. We were just going for some drama with this.

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