You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 7 Reasons People Hate Jazz - #145

Episode Date: June 28, 2018

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I'm Adam Ennis and I'm Peter Martin and you're listening to the You'll Hearin Podcasts. Daily Jazz Advice lovingly flowing to you through podcast system. That seems a bit odd. It's usually it's coming at you. It is. It is usually coming at you, but because of the subject matter today, it's a little bit aggressive with our title. I wanted to sort of counterbalance that for our loving listeners. Wait, why are we being so ginger with our loving listeners? What is the subject matter? Well, first of all, everybody knows because it's listed right there on the title. But it is seven reasons people hate jazz.

And we have the word hate in our title. I hate even having the word hate in there, but we've got it. Man, you know, I actually love these episodes because we're usually so self-aggrandizing with jazz. And we're like, you know, this is why jazz musicians are cool. And this is the best jazz albums. And jazz is better than all the music. This is your cool voice. I like it.

These are all, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm being cool right now. But it's good, I think, to tear some stuff down. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So we're going to get into a little bit of the hate. We're lovers by nature. but sometimes you've got to tear something down to build it back up.

Plus, it's going to be funny. So that's the main reason. Don't tell our kids that. Yeah, don't tell exactly. All right, so what's number one? Okay, number one of our seven reasons people hate jazz is it sounds complicated. It's complicated. Actually, it is complicated.

Now it doesn't sound complicated, it's complicated. Yeah, yeah. And people normally think about music as entertainment, something to relax to, something to unwind to. and jazz, not all jazz, of course, and certainly, like, we don't believe these things, do we? We're not promoting these ideas. We're just saying these, and some of them are misconceptions. But really probably the biggest thing is people like, ooh, that's complicated. I have to do my homework.

I have to know what's going on in order to be able to enjoy it. And I think there is some truth to that, and there's also some faults on jazz musicians' side for making it sound overcomplicated, or even promoting it in advance as being very complicated. in sort of a classical music sort of way. I saw something on the internet the other day. Someone, it was like in a, you know, listen to this music form or whatever, and someone posted, I think it was some Thelonious Monk. And someone commented, like, every time I hear jazz,

I think of like, oh, these are really good musicians playing wrong notes on purpose. And I was like, yeah, that's pretty accurate, actually. Hey, all three of my children at different stages of their development have said a similar thing, which was, so jazz, like once they thought they understood jazz, so dad, so jazz. is just like randomly stringing together, random notes with other random guys. Like, that's the way they describe it. Yeah, I think there is a misconception.

But I think there is really, I mean, that's, if we're being honest, that's ignorance, right? That's just like they're not exposed to it enough. Like anything you don't know, you take it at face value and it's probably not accurate. And you know what? I'm going to turn that around. I'm going to say that it's their fault. It's on them. Exactly.

We're complicated. You need to get with us. But I also think there is a certain level of everybody has their own comfort zone with dissonance. you know what I mean? So if you're listening to nothing but like Jackson Brown all the time or something, you know, of course the Lone East Monk sounds weird. Yeah. But I think to our culture, unfortunately for a lot of people, I shouldn't even say our culture, because I don't know that there is not one culture, certainly in the world or anything, but there does start to become a dominant music culture, and it sort of programs people's ears

to not hear dissonance, to not hear any kind of beat that is not super overt and sort of does the work for you and there's a certain simplicity to it. Now we always talk about in jazz, what we try to do is take something that is theoretically complicated, harmonically complicated, rhythmically complicated, and make it sound and at least feel simple to the listener. But it's a two-way street. The listener needs to kind of come with some attention to detail to be rewarded and hopefully we can provide that simplified version of something complicated. Well, and you know what fixes all this complicated, complicated harmonic things or not or rhythmic things is, is it swinging? Because if it feels good, people like it, even if they don't understand complicated harmony.

In my experience, great jazz musicians can make pretty complicated harmony feel awesome and feel like it's just something that's internal with everybody. Yeah. See, look, we're already turning hate into love. That's right. All right. What you got for number two? So number two is a reason that people hate jazz is because mostly it's instrumental, or a

majority of it is instrumental. There are, of course, some great vocalists, but so much of jazz is instrumental. You know, I was thinking about this one, and I think if you've been a player since you were a kid or you've been a fan of classical music and jazz since you were young, you've understood that stories get told in instrumental music. You know what I mean? There's still ways to tell stories without words. But I think for an average person who likes songs and grew up on pop music, that it's hard to hear.

It's hard to hear the story. You know what I mean? And they're used to being told the story in lyrics. And for me, it was like the exact opposite. I remember when I was in my mid-20s and I discovered Bob Dylan, and I never got it because I thought, oh, no one could play. The music is simple.

It's three chords or two chords or one chord sometime. You weren't hearing the story, though. I wasn't hearing the story. And then once I understood the story and how genius he was at writing stories and lyrics, I was like, oh, this is amazing. I get it now, you know. But I think most people are the opposite of that.

Exactly. And they go a musician, especially. If they're not a musician, they go story first, and then they can't understand the context of the story that the instrumental music is telling. So I think instrumental music in general, not just jazz, but classical music, instrumental pop music, folk music, is hard for some people who can't get over that lyrical aspect.

Well, and I found people, I mean, this is right on point, people hating instrumental jazz. Sometimes they love vocal jazz, and they don't necessarily know even how to express that because people have been like, well, I don't really like jazz. I mean, I like that, I don't like that progressive, you know, modern jazz. But I love, you know, Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra, whatever.

I'm like, that's jazz. You love songs. Yeah, you love songs. And you know what? I do too. And as a credit really to vocalists, I don't know that it ever gets to be as high of a level as when you have a great ensemble with a vocalist. I mean, that probably is a top level, even for me as a musician,

understanding everything that's in there. I mean, because then you have the story, you have the music, it's the complete package. I mean, you can't deny how deep, like, you know, Johnny, Hartman John Coltrane record is because of that combination of Johnny Hartman being able to tell a vocal, lyrical story and Coltrane being able to express that lyricism instrumentally. I mean, something like that. I mean, and there's many examples of that. Well, those kind of records we've talked about before are great entry points for somebody,

like if you want to expose somebody else to jazz for the first time, definitely do it with a vocal record. Absolutely. That's the way to do. I've heard that record being played in like R&B clubs. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. So number three.

Number three, of our seven reasons people hate jazz, it's too many dudes. Well, that's definitely true. And this, you can take it in a couple ways. It's too many dudes, as in there's too many male people on stage, and just too many dudes, you know, if you know what I mean. Yeah, the male people that are there are so dudes. Yeah, and I mean, this is really a problem that we're, you know, in our own individual ways here at Open Studio, and on the podcast really trying to break through because there's so much talent, so much female talent historically, certainly now we're at a wonderful place with so many great players, but there's this kind of

institutionalized sexism against female, especially instrumental. With vocals, it's always been a little bit different, but there needs to be more exposure there, and it's just more enjoyable, just like anything else. I mean, if you're in the business world and you go to a board meeting, and it's all old white dudes, you know, nothing wrong with old white dudes. We're fastly becoming that ourselves. But just a whole, I mean, it's just stale. It's just stale to have that, And it's not representative of the inclusiveness that the music certainly has. And it's really up to us to include other people. So when people say they hate jazz, I understand it because they're looking up at a bunch of dudes.

And it doesn't represent half of the people there. And so that's actually one reason I hate jazz. I think it's a very valid reason. So number four is a reason people might hate jazz. I put a might in to kind of buffer this a little bit. Because we're kind of, we're slowly turning this around. You realize that, right? We're such positive guys.

We're such positive dudes. We can't help it. So number four is that it's often acoustic, even today. I mean, of course there are whole genres of electric jazz. You know, the ones that people don't hate. Fuck. But so much of modern music, of modern jazz, and the history of this music has been acoustic instruments

recorded very simply without a lot of tricks. which honestly now have been around for nearly 60 years. Studio techniques that jazz musicians still don't really implore. No, not. Embrace. Employ, employ. Employ. Employ.

Employ. That's what you're going to do. But also, you know, and while, of course, electronic instruments have been mixed in for decades now, still when I think when people think jazz, they think of that acoustic quartet, quintet sound, trio sound, piano-based drums, you know. There was a little bit of a renaissance with people not hating jazz when the whole MTV unplug.

You might be a little young to remember this, but MTV Unplug when you were probably in high school or middle school was like a thing. Tony Bennett did one. But the whole, that at least got, it was funny because they were like unplugged, but it was never all acoustic instrument. And they weren't even unplugged. Right.

But it was paired down. It basically just meant we're not going to play the tracks. We're not going to overdub stuff. We're going to actually have performances. So people sort of got into that for a minute, not even related to jazz. But yeah, when you see the acoustic instruments, you're like, eh, it's going to be like a Baroque concert. Right, right, right, yeah.

All right, so where are we at now? Number five. Number five. Is this my turn? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Another fifth reason people hate jazz. Musicians trend nerdy.

So this kind of goes along with number three, too many dudes, too many nerds on stage. And so that's, you know, really just about. not maybe being able to look we love nerds we are nerds we're certainly piano nerds jazz nerds there's no doubt about that there's no doubt about that and I'm a big nerd in a technology in a number of different

ways but sometimes people don't like the music because if we're bringing our nerdiness to the bandstand in terms of how we present the music how we interact with the audience it can be very difficult just like you know any kind of organization a school or a company or something you need to have a lot of nerds in different areas and you want to have that

that's what propels the company, but you might not want to have them as the receptionist at the front desk. Well, there's a presentation issue that I think jazz has been suffering for for a couple decades now. I mean, we were talking yesterday when we were hanging with Steve Wilson. And he had, was for a future episode. You know, he was listening his seven favorite saxophonists, or not his favorite, but seven of his favorite. Selected. Selected. And one of them was Rassan Roland Kirk. And, you know, thinking about how cool Rassan Roland Kirk was.

and the presentation of that. And it's something that, you know, some jazz musicians still have in spades. Christian Scott, you know, Roy Hargrove, Christian McBride, Christian McBride, Robert Glasper. Pretty much all the good ones. All the good ones. But there is a whole subset of jazz musicians

where it's like so much about just the music and not about any kind of showbiz anything. Yes. No presentation that I think it does hold average people back. Because they're used to even, with singer-songwriters, there's some kind of look, style, you know. I mean, you have to you have to hit on such a high level

musically. Well, first of all, the jazz musicians that have a great presentation are not nerdy and are great players are the ones that people don't hate. And that's some of the most popular stuff. And, you know, when I was younger, I used to be like, oh, they're sellout and stuff. No. They're just good. People like it. And they've got

the whole package. You talk about a Miles Davis. Right. You know, that kind of a, you know, an Art Blakey, Billy Holliday. I mean, so I'm just looking at records on the wall here. But I mean, there's so many people, but if you are kind of nerding out and not great presentation, you have to be such a high-level musically, and then almost your nerdiness becomes part of your presentation. So I'm thinking like a Keith Jarrett, I'm not trying to call him out as a nerd, but a little bit of his

presentation in terms of, it's more inward, you know, although his trio as a whole, when he's playing with his classic trio, is very welcoming in a lot of ways. But I mean, he'll, like, actually get on the mic and assault the audience verbally. That's always fun. No, but, you know, I'm not even thinking like it has to be in some kind of pop star way or something, but even just like with Rassan Roland Kirk, some kind of artistic statement that's more than just what you're hearing. Well, and he's such a great example because he was so cool in how he presented things. And so, you know, but he's, he was like the ultimate, you know, woodwind and saxophone nerd. I mean, playing multiple instruments at the same time, half of which no one even knew what they were if you were a Woodwin player.

Well, what about Herbie? You know, think about Herbie's career. It doesn't get any more nerdy, keyboard-wise, than Herbie, but he still is always conscious of the presentation of his show. Well, and he's still, I mean, it's amazing what he's, like, he's kind of gone back to the dooky stick, having the keyboard on the strap and being, I mean, it doesn't get any more welcoming and interesting and potentially entertaining to the audience than that. And potentially nerdy.

And potentially nerdy, too, exactly. All right, number six. Number six is that songs are long. Now, this can be a barrier. to certain people who only listen to maybe things on the radio or popular music. I think this is changing a little bit, that sort of the radio doesn't dominate as much. Yeah, that's been a nice thing with YouTube because things have got a little bit longer.

Yeah, I don't think people are scared off by five, six minutes songs. I mean, I remember when I was a kid, it was like, you know, people would be like, oh, Bohemian Rhapsody, it's like seven minutes long, you know. And that's really just... The radio edit. Yeah, that's just because radio stations wanted to put commercials in and stuff, and they didn't think people had the attention span. But I think now this is changing a little bit.

However, it definitely can be a barrier and kind of goes in with that, you know, it's complicated, it's instrumental. Yeah, it doesn't give you time to breathe. Yeah. So, I mean, I think it still is an issue. I'm not saying we should shorten our songs at all. No, no. I feel like we're trying to solve these. You know, we should have just presented it.

We're such problem solvers here. Like, we're just supposed to be listening the reasons people hate it. Like, each one we've actually tried to find a way to solve it. Have we fixed jazz yet? Silence crickets. All right, number seven, our final reason people hate jazz. And did we talk about, could this list be longer? Could this be 77?

It probably could be. So these are just seven. But now, we're going to try to flip things around on this one, Adam. Is that cool? I love this, yeah. I'm going to say the reason that they hate jazz is they're actually dumber than they used to be. And that is totally true.

So in other words, we're going to, if there is a decline in jazz, I'm actually not convinced that there is. I think that there's more fragmentation in people's listening habits in any case. But anybody who hates jazz at this point, we're just going to say because you're dumb, pretty much. And people used to be smarter and more people used to like jazz. Okay? Is that fair? That's a great place to leave it.

That's a great place to leave it. But I mean, it's dumb, ignorant. They're kind of interchangeable. But certainly people's attention spans, their willingness to delve into something in the entertainment world with some depth, some breath. That has been eroded. I mean, there's no doubt about that. I don't have to plant myself in the middle of jazz and Lincoln Center lecture stage to agree with that, yeah, although I would have a willing crowd there for sure. That's right, yeah. But not our listeners. Our listeners are definitely not dumb. They're brilliant. And especially if they

listen to this point of the podcast, they have a lot of attention. So we hope you've enjoyed these, us stood on a little take on turning hate into love. And, uh, and, uh, and, uh, You know, maybe we've given you a few things to counteract some of your friends, family, loved ones, or hated ones. When they do say, I hate jazz because. And they can be like, hold on, I don't know one of your seven reasons. And I got an answer for you. Yeah, so, you know, if you have a question or a episode idea for us, you can, I almost have a lesson idea. Yeah, you can give us those two.

Episode idea for us, you can go to you'll hear it.com. And there's a couple ways you can leave your question there. Or you could just come in and say hi and tell us what you. you're liking about the podcast or not liking but we'd rather hear what you're like that's right that's right as always you can leave a rating and review below and we have a new sort of avenue people might be able to to check out the podcast on right right well and I don't even totally know how this works but as of yesterday we're on the the new Google podcast platform which is part of

the Android world so of course you know a lot of people listen on Apple podcasts but many people have Android devices yeah do you have an Android device I do not. Really? I don't have one, but I'm open to it. I'm not anti-Android. You know, so if you have one of those green bubbles in my text messages, you can now enjoy the podcast on an app.

I mean, you already could on Google Play, but I think Google's in the process of kind of making it easier with its own app, so you can go on there, leave us a rating review. And actually, I've been diving into some of the reviews because we've been kind of shrilling for them in past weeks. No, have we? And we're actually getting a little bit of love out there, so I was going to read a couple real quick.

How about if I read one and then tomorrow we'll do another one? You got it. Okay. And this is actually from today. Okay. And you guys are listening to this episode. This is actually today. This is very rare for us to have an episode.

We record on the actual day it's being released. So hello today. The title of this review is Love from New Zealand, X. I don't know what X means, but I like it. And it's five stars. Not that we don't only accept those, but that's what I'm saying. It says, so great info, much y'arm. If only seven-star rating was an option.

This is from a mouse pirate from New Zealand. So big shout out to Mouse Pirate. What's up, Mouse Pirate? What's up, Mouse Pirate? Who are you running from, man? Cats. He's remember from cats. And with one of those emoji OK check marks.

Oh, right on. Yeah. So a lot of love from New Zealand. And I don't know what much yarns is, but that sounds like a Kiwi thing. You know, I had the pleasure of going to New Zealand and playing some music last year for the first time ever at the, the, where was I? I don't even remember.

Not Auckland in Wellington, the Wellington Jazz Festival. Played in the beautiful opera house there. So I had a lot of time. I had a lot of good times there. So thanks for the love from New Zealand. Yeah, let us know what much yarns means. Yeah. Any New Zealanders out there.

That's cool. And, you know, if not...