You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 7 Tips on Playing as a Rhythm Section - #45

Episode Date: October 26, 2018

Today on You'll Hear It, Adam and Peter reveal 7 tips on playing as a rhythm section. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hey, Adam. What's up? Do you like playing in a rhythm section? It's one of my favorite things. I'm Adam Anas. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear at Podcast. Daily Jazz Advice coming at you.

Brought to you by Open Studio. Peter, what do we have today? Well, we have four false starts on this episode, which is very rare for us. It's not very rare. Other than that, we have a question via Twitter. No, we're on Twitter now. We're on Twitter. You can hit us at Hey, Open Studio.

H-E-Y, Open Studio. And this comes from a listener, John. He says, I'd be interested in hearing you discuss blending as a rhythm section, specifically how piano, guitar, bass, and drums use their tone to create an acoustic mix without sound reinforcement. And so we kind of decided just to turn this into, you know, in general,

tips is playing on rhythm section. Certainly the without sound reinforcement, we'll try to blend that in. And I think that's a big part of number one for our seven tips, right? Yeah, you know, when he says blending, there's, I think it's more complicated than just one thing to do to blend. Right. It is this whole thing. It is seven things.

It is a complete process. Playing in a good rhythm section is an art and it takes a lot of this kind of stuff. So we'll kick it off with number one. And that's our classic number one. And that is, listen. That's right. Got to listen. Now this really apply.

I mean, they always apply. sometimes we force them in a little bit at number one. But man, for playing in rhythm sections, we've both done a lot of this, continue to do this. I mean, if you're going to ignore 2 through 7, just take this and turn off your radio right now. It's the most important part. And it's also everything 2 through 7 here, the rest of the list,

it all hinges on you listening. You can't do the rest of these things without listening. Right. So this is not like, okay, listen and then move on to the other ones. It's like take listen and then apply it to everything that we're saying, other things that you learn. And I mean, the great thing about this in terms of listening is like, a number of ways we apply it, listen to great rhythm sections on records.

Listen to them live. Yep. But listen as you're playing in the rhythm section. If you're the bass player, obviously you're listening to the drums. You're listening to yourself. Listen to the piano. You're listening to the guitar on a continual basis. And when you're not playing, when you're laying out or not, so for pianists, this happens often that the rhythm section becomes or really is the bass and the drums.

Yep. So you're listening to them as a unit. it hopefully. So the listening has so many different shades and gradients to how you're going to do it. You just have to first get that mentality. Now there's some ways you can actually practice listening like this. You can sort of practice moving your attention around the very first one. And this is harder than I think people might think it is, but that's to listen to the sound as a whole that's happening. You know, not to pick out any specific instrument or any specific sound, but really to is try to listen to the group that you're playing with as one big sound.

And hearing your role in that can be eye-opening about overplaying, underplaying, dynamics, all this stuff can hinge off listening to this big group sound. And then I like to practice, you know, especially at jam sessions or something, listening to individual instruments or even on the gig, you know, just picking out like the bass and being like, all right, for this chorus, I'm just going to check out what the bass is doing. Yeah. And I'm going to vibe with that. And I'm going to, you know, um, my,

my playing is going to be a reaction to the bass or to the drums, or sometimes just the snare drum or sometimes just the right symbol. Or sometimes, like you said, the bass and the drums together. You know, like practice focusing your attention in these different spots so that when you're on the gig and something interesting is happening, you can go to there. Yeah. Well, I love the order you did it in that the first is listening to the collective sound of the rhythm section. Because I think, you know, if you think about it in that way and listen in that way, then when you go to. to listening to just the bass and really focusing in for a particular reason, you still got kind of in the subconscious or in the background that collective sound because we have to,

you know, your attention, we never know what's going to happen. So it may need to then go to the drums or to the collective or to yourself. But as you focus, you're still kind of almost like you're looking out of the corner of your eye always at that collective sound and how we fit into it, whatever our instrument is. But it does give you that ability. And when you practice this kind of listening, it starts to prepare you for that. What do they call that when you can see in like all 360 degrees? Like a, like a IMAX kind of situation? Yeah, maybe. Yes, yeah, but I mean basically panorama? Panorama. Yeah, it's like you, you know, you can't actually focus on anything, but at one particular time you're looking at one mountain in the panorama, but you can feel it all around

you. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's the sort of listening in real time you want to work towards and then hopefully kind of live in that kind of listening as you're playing. That's where the excitement is. It is. And that actually makes it really easy. When you're listening to that whole surround sound of the music that's going on, it becomes very clear what you should be doing. You know, you're almost, what you're doing is in the

peripheral. Yeah. And it can be great there. Yeah, like, you know, some people are like, oh, I can't, you know, while I'm working, and this could be like outside of music or anything. While I'm working, I can't hear anything else. I can't, you know, people like that, like if that's the only way you can play, you're going to have trouble being a

successful rhythm section player. You have to be able to have several conversations at the same time. You have to be comfortable with a lot going on and being able to focus on specific things that, you know, pay attention to something even while other things are going on. But you can work on it. So listen is at the top and it's kind of like listen and then way down the list is everything else. Right, right. So if you're on limited time today, you can sign off now.

Yeah. And you've learned something. But number two, I think is important. That's learn about other instruments. You know, the other instruments in the rhythm section, they're part of your sound now as a rhythm section play. as a rhythm section player. So it really helps to know how the drums work, what their role is.

It helps to know how the bass works, what its range is, what its timbre is, where you fit into those things if you're a pianist. If you're a drummer, it helps to know the piano, where the piano is playing, you know, rhythmically, what it's doing. Like it helps, it helps to know. What it takes to play, yeah, yeah.

I think that it's dynamic range, you know, that's super important that you understand the other instruments, dynamic range, you know, their sonic range, all that stuff. Yeah, and I think that if, look, you know, ideally every instrument that we ever play with or composed for, we would be able to play at least a little bit. Totally.

A scale or a rudiment or something. It's not really realistic to learn every instrument. But as a rhythm section player, I do think that if you want to go top level, next level, that, you know, as a pianist, you should be able to play a basic swing bead with a high hat, maybe a little funk group, a couple of basic grooves on the drums. You don't have to sound great, but take the time to learn that. You know, hire a drummer just and give you a couple lessons.

And then, you know, learn on the base what it takes, you know, to move around and the guitar. Like, I think that that's a really valuable thing to be able to play with. You don't have to become, you know, even totally functional. Just be able to get around a little bit. It gives you the confidence in playing with them when you start to understand what it takes to play that instrument and to produce the sound and all that. Totally good. Yo, Pete. What's up?

Hey, we're always talking about Open Studio here on Neal here. podcast, but some folks might not know what that is. You want to fill them in? Well, this is our little project here that we've been doing for about three years where we're presenting just world-class jazz artists that happen to be many of them, my personal friends, that were in my personal Rolodex, and I called them and said, hey, how would you feel about sharing some of the wealth of your knowledge with some folks that really want to, you know, learn from you, and we're going to structure them as video lessons and put them together They're in a beautiful platform where folks can see exactly what you're playing, hear exactly what you're saying and what you're singing.

We have, you know, notation and structure to what you're doing. And we're having such a good time with it, such a great response. We've met so many great, wonderful students from around the world. 104 countries, in fact, we have students in now. It seems like a lot of countries. I couldn't name 104 countries. I don't think I could name 14 countries at this point. Yeah, we are the trying to be, anyway, the Center for Online Jazz Education.

So if you want to learn more about Open Studio, go to Open Studionetwork.com. Open Studio, jazz lessons from jazz legends. All right, number three. Dynamics. This is very, very important. Ooh, dynamics. Do we have to? No, but the fact is that if you're listening, as we said, to the whole, in general, for all these instruments,

you probably don't have to play as loud as you think you might unless it's really called for. You know, know where you sit in this in this sound. I think about this as a piano all the time. You hear pianists that just like bang away on these, on these chords when it's not necessary. Sometimes it's like totally appropriate. But oftentimes, like, you can really hang back. And it actually, again, it makes everything a little bit easier for you. Yeah.

If you know that like most of it is covered in the audience's imagination. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you don't have to play the thickest chords as loud as you can the whole time. Right. Like, chill out. Yep. Yeah, and I mean, as you understand, you start to really appreciate the function of your instrument within the rhythm section and you realize when important things do happen where you're all playing together, the dynamics are going to be amplified by multiple people playing them together anyway. So you, you know, we're used to as pianists being the whole rhythm section when we play solo piano or duo or something. And then you do need to be a little maybe more aggressive with how you delineate the dynamics. But when you're part of the rhythm section, it's a collective thing. And I think we do want to exaggerate. dynamics for the listener because sometimes you can get stuck kind of in that

mezzo forte range too much if you're not careful but knowing that as part of the rhythm section I mean the main thing is just to play with dynamics because there is going to be times when you need to play loud there's going to be times when you need to play soft there's going to be times when you need to be in the middle somewhere and and so you're almost like you're going to want to exaggerate that that those loud places because the music calls for but not just constantly here's a tip that took me a little bit too long to learn, but I remember listening to a Charles Lloyd record with Keith Jarrett. And he was playing Forrest Flower, maybe.

Fairly, I think, yeah, yeah. I think he was playing fairly busy in the background, but it was so quiet dynamically that it totally worked. And I was like, like the busier I get as an accompanist or as a part of a group, the quieter I'm going to do it. Oscar Peterson does this great, too, like on the Louis and Ella stuff. Oh, yeah. I mean, he's basically soloing the whole thing.

But he doesn't get away with that. quietly and in such a dynamic way that it's not super annoying. In fact, it's really interesting to your ear. Yeah, and then to just tie in with this with the original question in terms of playing, you know, acoustically without sound reinforcement, dynamics like this really becomes an issue. I heard the other night, the great Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra featuring Witt and Marsalis at a hall right around the corner from here, the great Shelton Concert Hall, and they played entirely acoustic. Everything. And it sounded awesome. It sounded awesome. Instruments are made to be played acoustic.

They are made to play. But, I mean, part of it was the sensitivity that the rhythm section really set the tone. I mean, the trumpets at times were blasting. It was almost like too loud. I was like, why would you ever need mics on a trumpet? But then they were able to play soft and stuff too. But the rhythm section always set the tone. And the drummer, who was a young drummer that I don't know well, who I think was actually

just subbing this tour, did such a great job of, like, controlling the dynamics and really thinking about the whole. You're talking about going beyond just the rhythm section. But within the rhythm section, They controlled it. Carlos Enriquez, the bassist was doing a really good job of, I mean, look, the bass is the potential to totally get lost in a big band, the piano too. So, but, you know, you could always feel that he didn't, he played loud when he needed

to, but he wasn't just like pulling hard and like playing random crap the whole time just to be heard. And what ended up happening, they pulled the rest of the band into their range of dynamics. And then when you needed to hit it, they hit it when it needed to come down. It came down. It makes the whole experience better. Yeah. It just does.

And it's just like, you know, tempos and grooves and all that that we think about the rhythm section being in control of dynamics. We should be thinking about for some reason we don't think about that as much and we should be. Very, very important. Especially for drummers, I think. Number four is space, to use space as a rhythm section. Yes. Again, you know, if the bass player is walking on all four beats

and the drummer is playing on all four beats, the drummer's left hand and the piano player, you don't have to do as much as you. you think you do all the time. It's not a constant cat battle between it? It's not a constant thing. You know, you can let the groove happen. Right. And in fact, like, that can be some of the most powerful music. Yes. I'm thinking about like Miles' you know, like plug nickel era stuff, where it's just like Tony and Ron are going. And there's not much happening. And it just feels amazing. What a mature thing to do when you're in a rhythm section, when things are feeling so good

to just not play. Totally. I mean, that's such a hard thing to do because you want to jump in there and be part of it, but that goes back to listen. Is like, is it needed what you're going to play? Because if not, don't play it. Yep. And I mean, I know we're talking a lot from piano standpoint, and that's usually a guitarist that would usually come to us. But for drummers and bass players at times too. I mean, there's a time when the bass can like lay out. And I mean, now that doesn't happen that often. But, but I mean, if that's what's called for, are you willing to commit as a rhythm section player to not play when it's not needed? Even if it feels good. As a drummer, are you able to commit to just playing time

and not overcomping? The same thing as the piano player. I think in the context of an hour-long set, an hour-and-15-minute long set, these things can become very important through the arc of your performance. You give it all the way on the first tune or through the whole thing,

everybody's just playing, playing, playing, playing, it doesn't mean anything. No. All right. Okay, number five, I love this because I think you wrote this one and you said, know your role. Yeah, that's right.

And it's great because I like the way spelled it, R-O-L-L. So that kind of in place, no, no, but this is good. We can take it two ways. Know your role as in R-O-L-E as far as you're the pianist, you're the guitarist, you're the drummer, and then, you know, we don't have to go out into all these things again, but like the drums

being able to control the dynamics just because of the range and those kind of things. I ain't too good with the spelling. No, but I like know your role too. Like, how do you roll when you play as a rhythm section collectively? We can think about it as that as well, because there is the role of the individuals, but more importantly, is the role

how the rhythm section rolls. That's right. And listen, again, this goes back to listen. To know your role in the rhythm section, listen to a bunch of recordings. You're going to get it. You're going to get what your role is. And it's shifting all the time within the same tune, within the same night, so that's good. Number six is to play as one.

The goal of playing in a rhythm section is to be a cohesive unit where you're playing the tune together. You're not just out there doing your own thing and being like, screw these other people. I'm just going to do it. You know what I mean? No, no, no. You're one piece. And I think it's a, yeah, and it's a challenge.

I mean, we have so many great examples, you know, it can seem like a challenge because if you look at, say, the big band, we're talking about the big band, obviously the trumpet is a section, the trumpets, the trombones are a section, but they're all the same instrument. Yeah. So for them to be thinking alike and become a section would seem to be easier than the rhythm section where you've got these very different instruments. But as we can see from the great examples that we have, it's actually in some ways easier because, well, I mean, our function is a little bit different than those other sections, but it's also the way that we blend is different. than a section of violins where everything is the same. So actually to sort of make it a beautiful, organic thing, there has to be some differences. We've got that built in.

So we have challenges, but there's also some positive things about having different instruments. But, yeah, the goal is to become as one. So number seven, and this kind of goes back to John's question on Twitter, which is, by the way, at Hey Open Studio. Hey, hey, and that is to, if you really want to blend, you're going to have to do some playing. You have to get to know the other people.

There has to be trust, and I recommend rehearsing. to work on the blend and talk about it if you want to. You know, I mean, like some people don't like to talk about this kind of stuff. No. If it's needed, you've got to do it. If it's needed, you can talk about your roles and maybe, like, you know, make suggestions of like, maybe we should try to sound like this rhythm section or from this record, you know, like, let's emulate that. And everybody seems so afraid to, like, say anything feedback for each other.

And I think, you know, for me, the higher the level of players I go to, the more willing, it's amazing. Like, you'd think they'd be less willing to receive feedback. but the more willing they are. But everyone's afraid to do that because they're like, well, I'm not, they're too good or whatever. And no, because we give each other feedback, not because we're trying to teach somebody or we're saying we're better,

because we care about the music. Like, we care about the rhythm section. Even if we get into an argument about, no, I think you're wrong, whatever. That's fine. You care at least. It's not like, I'm just not going to say anything and let something keep going along.

That's actually selfish towards the music. We're all trying to serve the music. And a rhythm section is a special thing that has to support, you know, I mean, if you're not, supporting other people, you're a piano trio kind of, still a rhythm section, but it's a different thing. I mean, when you're talking about being the foundation

of the group and everything, you have to care, and that means giving feedback. It means rehearsing. It means committing to that collective one. That's awesome. Yeah. So thanks, John. My Lord. Kumbaya, my lord. Comeby. Okay.

We are one. Thank you, John, for the question. You can shout us out at Hey, Open Studio, on Twitter. If you want to ask us a question, you could also go to you'll hear it.com and post your question there, as a voicemail or as a written question. Pick up your t-shirt there. You'll hear a t-shirt.

Anything else, Pete? No. This evening I'm going to Kenya, Africa. I don't know if you know about that. Oh, Kenya. Yeah. I've never been to Kenya. I've never been to Kenya. I've never been. I'm jealous. I'm super excited, man. But you know what? I'll tell you what. Continent of Africa in general, it's a magical place. It is.

Yeah. Well, until tomorrow, go here.