You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - 90's Jazz At Its Finest

Episode Date: June 16, 2025

You can’t deliver a performance like Shirley Horn’s “Here’s to Life” unless you’ve lived a little – or a lot. It’s an album only an artist with decades of love, loss, and resilience could create. In this episode, we break down Horn’s unmatched ability to accompany herself, the elegance of Johnny Mandel’s string arrangements, and the quiet confidence that defines every track. Whether you’re discovering Shirley Horn for the first time or revisiting a favorite, this episode will leave you hearing her – and your own life – a little differently.Listen to your favorite YHI jams, original tunes and more: https://osjazz.link/musicJoin Open Studio for ALLLLL your jazz lesson needs: https://osjazz.link/yhiYou’ll hear:Horn’s piano-first vocal approachHow Miles Davis helped spark her third actThe brilliance of Johnny Mandel’s orchestrationsPeter and Adam's tips for arranging for vocalistsWhy this album is 90's jazz at its finestand more!

Hey, Peter Martin. What's up? Here's to those early summer days. Yeah. A warm breeze. A sunny meadow. Children catching fireflies at dusk. Here's to a slow float down the Merrimack River with 15 of your crunkest friends.

Here's to jams and sweaty garages playing the tunes of glory days with your buddies. Yeah. A Van Halen poster on the wall. I don't know about that. A non-alcoholic IPA in your hand. Here's to over-reharmonizing jazz classics. Here's to moo chords. Here's to dotted quarter notes.

Here's to Shirley Horn. Here's to life. And I'm Peter Martin. And you're listening to the You'll Hear a podcast. Music Explored. Explored. Brought to you today by Open Studio. Go to Open Studio.Jazz.com for, oh, your jazz lesson needs. And Peter, go to Open Studio.

studio music on YouTube to check out some of our performance tracks that we've been making. We're putting together an album of some of our performances, some stuff from here on the you'll hear it podcast, some original music that we've been writing. Yes. Yes. Maybe a little bit of what they just heard. Maybe we'll throw that on. Maybe we'll do another version of it afterwards.

Yeah, a little Here's to Life featuring Caleb Kirby on the drums and Bob DeBoo on the bass. Is that recognizable? I think so. We're taking it out. We're taking it out. Here's to life, though. Here's to love. Yeah.

Here's to you. So we are talking about Shirley Horn's Here's to Life today. I know this is one of your all-time faves. It is. And actually, I had heard of it, but I didn't really give it a fair shake until I started hanging with you, and you were like, no, no, this is the one, this one right here. Right.

So I think this, yeah. And this is 1992 release, recorded in 1991. So you would have been a young and young and then maybe not even wheel into this kind of jazz. Not, yeah, not emotionally. mature enough to understand why this is so impactful. But tell me about your relationship with this album. Yeah, well, I was kind of barely emotionally able to.

I was young. So when this record came out, I was doing some stuff with, like, Roy Hargrove and Josh Redmond starting to, I was a little bit on the scene in New York, whatever, but especially the years after this, like 93, 94, the record came out in 92. This was such, this was the early 90s, kind of the Young Lions period. But it was also a really interesting period for several. wonderful vocalists that had a little bit of a renaissance or at least a little bit of a highlighting. I'm talking Shirley Horn. I'm talking Betty Carter. That's right. I'm talking Carmen McRae,

although we would lose the wonderful Carmen McRae very shortly thereafter. But I got to hear all of them. I got to work with Betty Carter in 91. And I heard Shirley Horn on tour over in Europe, my first tour in 91 when I was with Betty Carter. I got to get a little bit of Betty's reaction to Shirley and kind of find out some of the love they had for each other and a little bit of the competitiveness. Well, tell me about that. What was that like, to see those two, you know, in this, like you said, this sort of resurgence in both of their careers. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because I didn't fully understand it at the time, but I sort of pieced it together later. Betty very much always kept going. So they're about the same age. I think Betty's just a few years older.

It was a few years older than Shirley. But they're basically contemporaries as well as Carmen. And so, you know, they were coming out already in like the late, late 50s, both of them. But Betty, like, very much was not only an amazing singer, and then later on mentor to trios to many great musicians, but she was also an entrepreneur, started her own record label, really, like, was very scrappy at a time when female, especially African-American female vocalists, it was kind of unheard of some of the things that she did, and she created her own little empire that was amazing, and just amazing singer. But a little bit, I wouldn't say the opposite of Shirley Horn, because Betty was an amazing ballad singer as well, but she was more

name, I mean, her nickname that I believe, did Miles give it to her? Betty Bebop. Right. Like, she was like, you know, scatting and singing and like playing with the melodies and doing uptempo stuff. Wonderful at ballads. Incredible uptempo singer. Yeah. Like, all time great. All time great. And doing stuff in seven. But Shirley Horn, as we're going to hear it today, very much known for a ballads. Although Shirley could do some, I have some examples of some uptemple stuff, but they're not really on this record. This is very much, you know, Shirley Horn with strings, here's to life. This is very luxurious record.

with incredible sound and ballad and just artistry of her voice, but also of her piano play. So that was another difference. So Shirley was very much, I'm going to say almost pianists first, and we're going to hear her, well, let's go ahead and hear her talk about this. I think that this will frame things well. So I started. This is sure.

I was influenced, I guess, around 12, 13 years of age by Earl Garner. By Earl Garner. By ear, I'd play. his music note for note. I was, at school, I was, he said call me Earl Garner Queen. Because I loved his music, you know, and I, he was the first pianist that really kind of blew me away. Right.

And did you decide, did your parents decide you should take a classical? Yes, I was studying at four years old. At four years or started? Yes. And jazz came into your life at 12. Yeah, on 12. What did your teachers say to that?

Well, there was no problem because I was very good with the classics. You know, that was my love. At the time I was studying Earl Garner, I was also studying Rachmananov and Davies C. You know, so it didn't interfere, you know. And singing came later, or? Yes, singing. My parents didn't know that I was sneaking a gig, so to speak, right? So she goes on to, it's a really fascinating interview, but talk about them.

But that was much later. That was like 1920. It reminds me of Roberta Flack's story as well, which would be a little bit later than that, but starting off with a lot of classical music and then getting into jazz and then singing. Right, Nina Simone as well. Nina Simone as well. And like Roberta Flack, she's from, Shirley's from Washington, D.C. She went to Howard, like, pre-college division

and then ended up going. She got into Juilliard, but her family couldn't afford to send her to Juilliard. So she ended up going to Howard and doing classical. But then she started gigging, like around in D.C., I think it was in Georgetown or not Georgetown. There was an area of U Street or something where the clubs were. And obviously an amazing vocalist,

but I think it's very revealing because I've always felt that she's kind of a pianist first vocalist, right? And so, like, Betty Carter could play piano. Carmen McRae could play piano and stuff. Sarvon could play very well, apparently, but they were very comfortable away from the piano. Shirley was mostly, like, to me, all of her classic recordings that I really love, she was always at the piano as well.

I think it's an integral part of her artistry. She's never far from the piano on this entire record. She did do some stuff, I think, for when Quincy signed her at Mercury in the early 60s where she was away from the piano, I think it was a little bit less successful. Not that the piano was a crutch for her, but because she was so great at it. And it was such a part of her artistry, you know. Totally agree. Yeah.

Underrated as a pianist. And there are some good YouTube videos, too, of her playing the piano and playing with her band. And definitely worth checking out. Yes, absolutely. So, yeah, so the period of this kind of early 90s for this in hearing her, I mean, she was only, only 57. At the time, I was like, wow, she's so amazing. And I thought of 57 is very old. It turns out that's about, I'm fast approaching that.

You're getting close. But it was like such an interesting period because I feel like. in a lot of ways she was at her peak. Betty Carter was at her peak. Carmen, for sure. But it's like, I got so many chances to hear them, to hang with them and with Shirley. And she was just a beautiful person.

What you hear on this record is very much, in my experience, the way she was, you know, sort of to hang with. And I used to ask her about different voicing and stuff. And she was like, no, Peter, I want to check. What is that thing you were playing? I was like, don't worry about it.

Some stuff I stole from you. I was trying to get, you know. I love this album because it is this sort of research in time. And I think it's probably the best. example of a resurgent, you know, like a third act in a career. Yes. That is just an amazing third act that she has here. Right.

And this album was incredibly well received and I think has stood the test of time. Absolutely. And so just to kind of frame it, the year before she came out in 91 with the, with You Won't Forget Me, which was her really, her first really big, massive hit. And it was an important record because Miles played on it. Miles famously did not play as a side man on very many recordings. I mean, something else, Cannibal Adderley, the occasion. thing. But there's a whole history with Miles. He really kind of first put Shirley on the map in like

1959, 1960 when he was playing at the Village Vanguard and had Shirley playing the opposite sets. He told Lorraine and Max about her actually. And then she started to get a lot of notoriety. Quincy Jones first heard her there. So, you know, she always had, they always had a very special connection. He recorded this and then died in 91 actually. I think they recorded it 90. Miles passed in 91. Let's just listen to a little bit of this. You won't forget me, because this is coming just a year before, here's to life. Forget me.

Though you may try, too wonderful to die. Oh, my old. Shirley's course. And it will happen that now and then you'll fall to wondering if we shouldn't have tried. That's big when it came out. It's so good. That's so good. This record, for some reason,

a little bit gotten lost even more than here's to life. I think it's some of Miles' like people forget what he still had right up until the end. And I think that's sort of the best example of that. Shirley's accompaniment. I know Miles loved that. That's what I'm saying. She was a pianist first.

And, oh, there's so many different things. I want to play a little bit because we listen to a lot of ballads just so people don't get it twisted out here. This is from 92. You mentioned some of the YouTube stuff. This is actually, I think, on YouTube. live at Newport. So the year this record came out with her trio.

Big shout out to Steve Williams and Charles Abel's, her longtime trio on electric bass and drums. I heard them play so many times. Such a big part of the Shirley Horn sound during this third act kind of period. And you can't state their importance enough. They were always wearing tuxedos. Shirley was very much about the tuxedos with the trio,

but they just complimented her and knew her arrangements and tunes so well. You got to keep it classy. Got to keep it classy. A lot of folks don't know that Peter Martin insists on tuxedosos around here open the studio, but only when we're deep into work. So we don't do it for the show. No, we change. But as soon as we get done with this, we change into tuxedos, yeah.

So this is a little bit of Justin Time, Newport, 1992. Going to turn a piano solo. I know this one. He's got a little hump in it, right? So she had that, I mean, obviously. And if you heard her live, you heard a lot of that. But a lot of people that heard, you won't forget me, Here's the Life during this period.

Didn't get all that. I want to jump back just a little bit. I know we're all over the place, but then we're going to get into Here's the Life. This is 1961. Sometimes I'm happy. This for years was released as Live of the Village Vanguard,

but it was actually live in St. Louis, just a few blocks from here at Gaslight Square. No way. Absolutely. Yeah, it was titled Vanguard because people thought that that would, I don't know, somebody thought it would be more popular, but this was corrected.

And this is what surely sounded like 30 years before what you're about to hear on Here's to Life. We introduce a request the first part of the set okay this is with um Daryl Mixon's father

on bass John Nixon John Nixon yeah sometimes I'm happy sometimes I'm blue my disposition A red garland there

Depends out of you I never mind the rain from the skies As long as I can see The sunshine in your but it almost sounds like... Sounds like a St. Louis Club, not the Village Vanguard. Exactly, exactly.

I know, I'm like, but I mean, the thing is, it sounds like sometimes, like the way she's back phrasing and like, but then she's comping on top, that's so hard, like it sounds like it's a separate piano. It's pretty amazing. Well, she's doing those like, and of four, and of two rhythms that you would hear, like, Red Garland do in Miles's band.

And then Miles is usually back phrasing on stuff. Yep. She's kind of like, is that whole band by herself. I know. And she would have heard Miles on those van. our gigs with either Red Garner, maybe Winkiller, maybe even Bill Evans during that time, very much of that style. So she was the real deal.

I love that that was from Gaslight Square, which is literally like two blocks that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, fast forward. So Shirley famously, why do we use the word famously so much? That's really gotten to our vernacular. I was watching our episode the other day. It's famously and really infected our vernacular, yeah.

Shirley infamously was... Well, that's not... Shirley took a number of years off kind of from the mid-60 she did a little bit of recording here and there but pretty much till like the late 70s to raise her family, her daughter she was married for many years.

She had been married since I think the mid-50s when she was relatively young and really was just living in D.C. Like because this kind of like, for whatever reason, like she never really became like a huge star. She was known but it was never like whatever and she wanted to raise her family and stuff.

So she kind of came, you know, by the 70s it was a little bit of a lot lost time for this kind of stuff if you weren't already well established. She made a great record in 79 that I'll recommend if people want to go on a deep dive, lazy afternoon on Steeplechase. That was really the product of Billy Hart and Buster Williams, I think it was, kind of recommending her. And that was sort of the beginning of her getting back into in the 80s, and like, especially in Europe, going to North Sea Jazz Festival.

The head of the festival there was a big promoter of hers and kind of led up to this renaissance at the end of the 80s, beginning of the 90s on Verve Records. shout out Richard Seidel, who signed her and was really kind of the promotional architect behind the possibility of her having this third act at this time. And that leads to here's to life, you know, and this idea of like, really, Shirley Horn and Johnny Mandel. You know, Johnny Mandel, composer of Shadow of Your Smile,

the theme from Mash. Emily. Emily, you know, Sinatra, arranger, Count Basie, arranger, Tony Bennett, soundtrack to the Sandpiper I mean legend but maybe a little bit

more behind the scenes you know but wrote all this great music and was a great arranger so Richard Seidel had the idea about putting them together Shirley had already been singing

or maybe it was Shirley's idea or their idea of whatever Shirley was down with it because she'd already been singing a bunch of Johnny Mendel's compositions and that's what this record is about so let's listen to the first track is that cool?

Yeah absolutely and we're not going to listen to all of it we'll probably come back to her for some highlights But this is Here's to Life by Artie Butler with lyrics by Phyllis Molinari.

No complaints and no regrets. I still believe in chasing dreams and placing bets. But I have learned that all you give is all you get.

So give it all you've got. I had. my share I drank my fill and even though I'm satisfied I'm hungry still to see what's down another road beyond a hill and do it all again so here's to life every joy it brings So here's two lines their dreams How the time just flies How love can go from warm Hello's to sad goodby

And leave you with the memories You've memorized Keep your winter's warm For there's no yes in yesterday And who knows what tomorrow brings Or takes a way way as long as I'm still in the game I want to play for laughs for life for love so here's to life joy yeah or dreamers and their dream we're gonna come back to that I know you like that part

I just feel like the next part's gonna you're right there buddy yeah fine I'm fine I'm not there big guy it's You know, I was just lots of thoughts on that one. First of all, like, you really can't sing it like that unless you've been around the block a few times. There is something amazing about youth and there is something invigorating about youthful musicians. We just last week listened to you and Joshua Redmond and Brian Blade when you all were super young

and the energy is all this fire. Yeah, yeah. But there's something of this. That's not, but you got, there's no way that that band at that time could have come close to recreating something like this. You just have to have decades of being beaten down by life a little bit. Yes.

And just feeling all of these things and contemplating them. Yeah. I think to get... And to be a sensitive artist on top of it, to just already be Shirley Horn. Yeah. And then to express that. That's grown folks' delivery right there. 100%.

And then also, it makes me a little bit sad because you know how much I love orchestras. I love an orchestra so much. And it's a gear that we're just not going to get very much. much of anymore. Let's bring it back, man. I tried. It's tough. It's hard. It's very expensive. I know. And it's, and we're just not set up for it. Like, we were set up for orchestras. You right? For the longest time. I know. Not that they weren't expensive even back in this day. They used to have them in like every like radio station or local television. My dad, when he was in high school, played in like the NBC affiliate in Charlotte North Carolina and like the band.

The orchestra, you know. So I'm saying. Just have, have a big string section at your disposal, have horns at your disposal, woodwinds at your disposal. As a musician, I know it's great. We can do everything in a computer now, and it's fantastic. But man, you can't tell me that the human beings,

probably 50 or 60 of them in that recording session, getting together and making music all in one room, isn't a special thing. That is a special endeavor. It's a monumental task. Johnny Mandel is incredible at this. And that's really, really makes it.

There's no way that you can get, I think, is emotionally charged with computers. Right. I mean, I know that it's different. You're trying to be a Ludd-I. But you know what? Embrace your Luddite-ness. No, no, it's not even a Luddite thing.

It's just like there is something about human beings, dozens of them in a room, building courts together. Well, especially for something like this, a song like this, and look, this became, you know, famously, Shirley's signature song from this point on. And she wasn't the only one to sing it. Actually, this was originally written.

Like, this is a very modern standard. I always thought at the time that this was like an old standard because it's got that sound to this recording. But Artie Butler wrote this like in the mid-80s or like something. Yeah, no, late 80s. And it was originally for Peggy Lee. And I think she did end up recording it maybe.

I'm not even sure. But Shirley, no, she didn't. Shirley was the first one to record it. You know, Barbara Streisand record. I don't know if you've heard that version. I should have pulled that up. I love Barbara Streisand. It's not Shirley Horn.

Because once you get a signature song, it's very hard for anyone else to do this. Other people have done it. It's fun. We just did it. Is it our signature song? I regret doing that. Now, after listening again, I regret.

But I mean, she just, like you say, she brings the lifetime experience, a mother, an artist, a wife, a citizen, a human. It's just. Yeah. And I think back to the brief little moments I got to be around her. I got to hear her sing this with the Metropolitan Orchestra live.

I think that was in 92 or 93. No, 94 at North Sea Jazz Festival. And I can tell you, it was every bit as thrilling as listening. Actually, more so, because it's like you're sitting right there. Yeah. And her intensity, but also, like, to me, that is such a mature, patient reading of that song. And then Mandel's arrangement. Like, you couldn't have had a 22-year-old Mandel be able to write like that.

No. You know what I mean? Like, the restraint. There's a lot of sophistication there, but how he matches her delivery and tone. And this tracks, we're going to talk about how this actually went down because this is one of only two tracks that they recorded all together, with the strings, with Shirley and the trio together in one room. And as you say, it really gives you that gravitas, that connection.

But it's really a stunning thing. And I mean, you know, he's got the classic Hollywood strings thing that brings the nostalgia, but there's very much like a modern sound to it. You know what I mean? As well. It's not just like a throwback thing. The sound is so great. Al Schmidt, he was the engineer on this and all the string stuff.

And then David Baker, the great David Baker, did the trio recordings with Shirley in New York. There's something kind of odd about the way her voice is recorded on this that works. It almost makes it timeless. You're like, wait, is this 1992? I know. Or is this 1962? There's something in the way that her voices, and I don't know what that is.

I'm sure there's engineers that can help me out there in the chat. But, man, I'll tell you. what, that's as good as a ballad can get. And there's a couple of little things that I think that tip it off in the songwriting that it's a little bit more modern. But one thing that I think that Shirley Horn does, that is crucial for this song, is it's never super sappy. Like she doesn't, she doesn't overindulge in it. She doesn't throw anything away. And then there's a couple of moments in the arrangement that, like you said, like Johnny Mendel is a grown person. Yeah. Like when it just breaks down to just the piano.

Yes. Oh. And we think about, oh, that's not the part that he erased. That absolutely is the part to give that space. Because surely I heard it, she could do this just her at the piano. Sure. No problem. Yeah, yeah.

And it was great. That is a strong, confident choice. Yes. And that's the right choice. Yes. Yeah. And it's their choice. It's their choice.

It's their choice and it's the right choice. Yeah, but just like we talk about with Marvin Gay, like sometimes what's not being played, like when they didn't have the snare drum on that on, what's the last track? Make me want to holler. Remember it was like no snare. Yeah, Intercity Blue. I mean, like these kind of things, man, they can be everything.

Absolutely. What you're taking away. And her playing, and then those octaves, this was one note or octave down the left hand. I don't think anyone did it better than her. Crazy. Yeah. Shout out to the harpist.

Oh, the harpist killing it. Holding it down. And the most thrilling part we're going to get to later. I can't believe you cut it off where you cut it off. Well, we've got it coming, man. There's a form to it. Okay. So that's the first track.

And then, well, check this out too. Johnny Mandel had a really interesting. He produced this, arranged this was, and won a Grammy for the arrangements on this. But this was kind of his concept or his observations about Shirley with piano. She's at the piano. She's able to totally control her environment. You know, it's like she said, my voice comes from the piano. And it's, for her to sing without playing the piano is kind of like having to rub your head and pat your stomach.

You know, it doesn't, some people can't do it. Some people can't. I've heard like Sting can't sing without playing the bass. Like he's got to mimic the bass when he sings. Right, right, right. For some people, I think that's just a muscle memory thing. Yeah, and then this was John Mandel. Holly Horn is the one singer who all the great singers, Peggy Lee, for instance, who I adore.

Carmen McRae. She's the one, Shirley is the one singer they all. bow down to. That's saying some. Carver McRae Ray and Peggy Lee. So there's that. Okay. So now we're going to listen to the second track, which I love, come a little closer.

Great track. Yeah. And I'm just going to go ahead and put it out there. This is my desert island track. I can't hold back on. Bam. Yeah. And because it's a two for one. This is a medley. This is come a little closer and wilds the win. And so we should talk about two. This is not, there's a bunch of men down.

Oh, at Time for Love, we haven't got to that. There's like three Johnny Mandel compositions on here as well. But we're going to start with coming a little closer. By the way, this medley expertly executed the transition. Oh, I've got that queued up for you. Is that something that might interest you? It is, it is, very much so. Not on the piano on this record.

Ah, her clusters? Me likey. Do you know where they recorded this? This was at, I think it was at Power Station. Three notes. Come a little closer. I will sing you my song. Just a little closer.

It won't take very long. It's late and we can't play this piano too loud. Because the neighbors upstairs are asleep. And dreaming. Okay, I just got to note something that said, dreaming. She did not play. She played the chords the way like you or I would play behind a singer. like not exactly because you don't

I don't know how she was like dreaming yeah that's the way everybody would do it if you're singing but like she perfectly accompanies herself and you might say well she knows what she's going to play but again that's like trying to do this I don't know if that's what Mendel meant but check it out because the neighbors upstairs are asleep right and dreaming

that's crazy I will tell you my happiness I'm just one of my favorite voice things ever coming up here level of patience Closer. Off the charts. And I will sing my song. A little closer.

It won't take very long. This is the epitome of making really hard stuff of the piano sounds so easy. Yeah, I was going to say. Making hard stuff sound easy. She was the master of that. Yeah. The accompaniment game is so strong. Yeah.

It's so, so strong. The voicing game is. To be able to control a piano like this is so, we know. So hard. Oh, just a, you know. Crazy. It's great, man. Love me, love me, say you do.

Let me fly away with you, for my love is love. You hear Shirley Horn do this a lot in her comfortment. Give me more than one. You like those voices on those strings? I really do. I really do like the me. I really do like them, yeah. So what happened here, these strings,

they just played this the way they did. And I heard her do this many times, this tune just with the trio. They just recorded the way they normally do in New York. Then they sent it out, Mathis, wrote the arrangement around it. They recorded in Hollywood with the orchestra. He's matching a lot of her voices. Yep, and then adding some little things,

taking away some little things. The mix is incredible. Shout out, David Bay. and Al Schmidt, the great Al Schmitt. Yeah, but I mean, it's just, you know. Fantastic. That's fantastic. Yeah.

And then I'll just, just, this is a fun thing. That's wild is the wind. Check this out. This is also wildest of way. Kind of where she was coming from. You know, she lived with these songs for many, many years. That's a great tune, man. I love the melody.

Yeah, it's so great. Cool. Yeah, so like I said, that's how they did it. It was very, I mean, this has certainly been done before, but it's not as easy as it sounds. I know as an arranger, I've done this a little bit where you've already got the tracks, And it's like, it can be a little disorienting because like, where do I fit in?

How do I not just make it window dressing or just padding it and like put some interesting things in there? I think it was, oh yeah, where do you start? And here's the life is the only ones that they recorded all together in the same room with the orchestra and everything. Everything else was just a trio. Yeah. Shirley doing her thing. And so for it to feel like for Mandel

to be able to give that addition without it overpowering the trio. Because when you hear her do these songs, around this time with just the trio. There was nothing missing. But obviously the bigger arrangement makes it more grandiose. But how do you do that when she starts with just that? I think it's like matching the voicings. Very simple, very patient.

Not just matching the voicings and the harmony, but like matching the vibe. Yeah, you want to keep a lot of space. And I think Johnny Mandel nails that. Yeah. Just footballs in the string parts, you know? And then adding some spice with the brass and with the woodwinds as the tune develops a little.

bit. I think that's that's the way to go. Absolutely. So let's listen. This is track number three. We're not going to be... Because I love her comping on this. How am I to know? And her, yeah, how am I to know? If it's really love. And her back phrasing. Is that what you call that back phrasing?

That's found its way here. But her comping is like, is on top, right? Oh. How am I to know? Will it linger on? It sounds like a different pianist's playing. And leave me then.

Dude. I dare not guess at this strange happiness. Somebody give that Richard Todd a Grammy. That French horn. Killing it. That's good. Can it be that love? Ashup 9 descending

Steve Williams on drums Charles Abel's on bass It's such a cool solo It's like It shouldn't be as good as it is It's so understated You know But it's like everything she's doing in there

Is so like if you saw the transcription You'd be like ah that's a cool soul But like her execution and like her swing And the blues stuff And her left hand competent She's pushing through it It's such a great segue between that amazing singing.

Okay, we're moving on to track number four. A Time for Love. Now, so this is one, we talked about in 91, you won't forget me with Miles guesting on that. This record, very interesting, Wint Marsalis is guessing on two tracks. Ever heard of them?

Ever heard of him? And this is coming right, well, it's not right after, but it was a little bit of a beef between Winton and Miles famously. Did you know about that? I've heard rumbling. Yeah, what do we know about that?

What can we say about that? That's for another podcast. Oh, okay. We're going to do a whole Winton Miles Beef podcast? Yeah, I mean, it kind of de-escalated by this point. Can we do a whole trumpet player? We could do a whole jazz musician. Trampet players get a little passive-aggressive or a little aggressive-aggressive sometimes.

It's a hard instrument. I think they're... So it was piano. We got 88 keys. What do they have? Three. Yeah, but they've got all the same notes. This is a time for love.

A time for summer sky. For a limber and butterfly. I wonder if Maya Zaki was a fan of Shirley Horn. There's a lot of... Studio Ghibli Ghibli chords So this is another

beautiful ballad of course We're going to go forward to Winton's solo on here Which is a lot of fun A time Holding hands Great playing Yeah I mean that's the most crystal clear

trumpet sound It's very clear My only minor quibble bit with that is like there's a little bit of a disconnect on that. I think he tracked it after the orchestra. Like that's the only time on this record where it feels like everybody pieced it together. Great playing, beautiful.

But there's not, I would have loved to hear some more like Shirley and Witton kind of interaction. But maybe that's not what was needed on this. It's definitely not as effective as the Miles thing that we heard earlier. Yeah. But maybe that's a, you know, Miles had lived a life by this point. Winton was, you know, still a relatively young guy.

But I mean, it's playing on it. It's just, as usual. Wynn is just. Always, yeah, the playing is great. Return to Paradise. This is great. This percussion stuff was added later. More than jumpy, Errol Garner-esque piano playing. Come my love with me across.

And I think these are all, no, these are all, all these ones that she had done with the trio were her arrangements. The trio arranged, and then they adapted it out, of course. But she had been doing some of these for years like this. So that's a fun one. And this whole album, this whole album has just like such a rich. sonic scape to it.

The whole landscape of it feels very, very airy, like a little bright. And there's a lot of room. Like, there's a lot of space in both the arrangements and the performances, but in the sound itself. I really dig it, man. It's really dreamy, actually. Very dreamy. There is a lot of space, which is amazing because there was such an opportunity.

That's why, like, Mandel, you so much restraint on this. Even though he gets a little busy at times, not too busy in a good way, but there was so much. many, like, there's such an opportunity to over-arrange when you already know what the rhythm section and the vocalists are doing. You know what I mean? Because it's like, oh, I can fill in every single hole. I don't have to just sit here and pat because I know the voicing she's going to play. I can match that. I can add little things. But he holds back. And then when he does go in there, it's so thrilling, you know, and interesting. It is really a challenging

task. And it doesn't seem like it would be. It's like, oh, no, we already have everything ready to go. but you're right. You're sort of like inclination could be to fill up as much space as you can think of. Yeah. Right? And I mean, I've been tasked with this

similar project and I know you have too of writing something after the fact of something that's already been recorded. Yeah, I find it more difficult because I feel like when you're writing the arrangement and I've kind of done in between two where there's already arrangement which is with a lot of these like Shirley already had her arrangements

and they weren't going to change that really. Have you ever got a voice memo of someone just singing the song into their phone? and then you have to do a string arrangement around it. I've gotten that before. The same person as you. The same person. Perhaps, yeah.

Okay, so I want to play two more. No, hold on before we move on. Sorry. Too quickly. Tell me your strategy for that. Like, when you have something that's pre-recorded, what are you looking to do? Well, I look at that as more like less,

what are the possibilities that you want to do and more like, okay, what's sort of the icing that I can put on this at most of the places? But then try to find some places where there's enough space, not every time, but some of the spaces where you can do something really cool and interesting. Because if you only just put the pad and the icing, it's kind of like, okay, yeah, that sounds good. But it's like, because when you're doing the arrangement at the beginning and you're building up from that, you have to build in things, I think, into the

arrangement that are really, and normally I would do this, I think just being a pianist or whatever, from the rhythm section and piano standpoint. So it's like you start there and then you start adding some things that match with that. This is the opposite. All that's there. including the rhythm section. So it's like you have to add things on. So it's like you're listening to what's happening. You're trying to match. But even that process,

even the fact that this is how they're going to do it, I think tells you a little bit, informs you of how you might write. Right. They don't want the orchestra to be the featured player of this. Right. Not like here's to life where it's like, it's all about that orchestra from the beginning.

And it's like if you are putting something on the top of like an already pre-recorded track, it's like, okay, well, this is where they want this. They want this as icing mostly and then you kind of have to pick your spots. And if you pick them, the great thing is you know or you should know what the final price is going to sound like. When we arrange a lot of times,

especially for like the rhythm section, any kind of solo, there's a certain amount of openness that we're like, okay, let the magic happen at the session. But this is kind of like, okay, the magic already happened. You need to bring some magic. But whatever you record with the strings and the winds and the percussion, that's going to be the end. So like as he's listening to it come through,

it's not like, oh, well, we'll see. what else we can do in the next take. It's like, no, it's already done. Yeah. You know, so I bet he had to do some rearranging as he was going or some taking away or something. And I do think that not writing, like this kind of arranging after like, it definitely breeds to be overriding.

And I think like laying back and letting, like, he leaves the trio alone a lot, probably more than I would think to do. And that's great because the way they're playing, the way she's singing, it doesn't need anything else. But I wonder. I wonder. I don't know if this is the case, but I've had gigs like this where I have written,

I've sort of overwritten on purpose with the idea of like, I'm going to give them a lot. And they can take or leave what they want. But they're going to have a lot of options. Right. You know what I mean? So I wonder if he wrote more,

but like when they heard everything, they were like, no, let's take this out of this. Or I wonder if it was like predetermined. No, I think him being an experience, I would say that probably happened. And I'm saying at the session, he might have been like,

because it's very different than like, listening to the whole, like you already know a part, like the sort of foundation of the track so well. Yeah. He's been arranging to that. And then when you hear the strings play, he probably immediately knew like, oh, that's too much there and was like, okay, let's task of that. Or just wait during the mix. You can also take stuff out.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's just for safety. If like I'd rather have something that I can take away than not have anything and have to try to scramble. But what a fun thing to do to arrange when you know you don't really need outside of those two tracks. Oh, yeah.

Like you can just like, I mean, unless you're worried about somebody being like, you didn't give me enough to play. You don't have to do a lot. You don't have, you know, when you've got some great stuff happening already there. Okay, I want to play two more tracks. Just to this, if you really love me, I want you just to hear a little of the inspiration. Shirley Horn was a big fan of Edith Piaf, as were, of course, mini vocalists. Is that the first Edith Piaf reference on the You'll Hear podcast?

Absolutely. That might be. This track comes directly from that. This is Him al-Lamor. And she's singing in French, of course. Shirley's going to sing. Shirley changed her vibra. This is Heath FPS.

You got it. This guy's smart. I think we'll listen a little bit. Shall I catch a shooting star. Shall I bring it where you are? I love this song. If you want me to, I will. And this is a little bit buried at the end of the record before a classic.

You can set me any task. I'll do anything you'll only... If the sun should tumbles from the sky. She already did the woodwinds. I didn't need to get at it. If the sea should suddenly run right. Yeah, so that's just, you know, we could have just listened to the whole record. That would have been fun.

please do that okay so there's that that's the second last track and then the last track is probably this record's really bookended by two classic like compositions that were hugely influential on a whole generation of vocalists and just musicians in general here's the life of course every singer and their mama has tried that that's that's shirley's song and and then estate which of course means summer is the last track so it's very interesting I think that the two sort of of bang, not really the bangers, just the most classic, kind of off-repeated. But the history of this tune is actually... The Bruno's, Bruno Martino, Bruno and Bruegette.

Exactly, right. Yeah, Bruno Martino kind of had a minor hit with this, and then some others did it. And then, Joao Gibralto in 1977, covered this in Italian. Yeah, that's right. He's got such a thick Portuguese- Brazilian accent that you might confuse it for Portuguese, but it's very much... difference between the two, so it's not a good to be. Have you ever played this song in Italy?

Oh my God, they go crazy. They go crazy. They love this song. They sing it so loudly. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, if this isn't the lineage of Here's the Life, that's what is. And Shirley loved this recording and, um,

like a lot of people, but she ordered up some English. Lyrics. Put another key. Estante means summer. Yes. Start slow and patient and slow and patient. Piano playing is really some beautiful choices. Really, really good.

Estate, the glow of your caresses. You would think you need the Italian. Such a more romantic, beautiful language than English, but she kind of nails it. You turn my timid no eager yeses. I love vibes, especially in an orchestra setting. You sweep away my sorrow with your sight. Shout out to the Brunos for writing some serious melody, serious harmony. Not related.

She waited 45 seconds between those two phrases. Okay. You were here for it. So that's how the record ends. Estate, estate. And that's it. Can we get to some categories? Let's do some categories.

Are you happy, man? I'm, I'm, I mean, this is this. This is grown folks music. You know what? Now that you're over 40, how old are you now? 46. Welcome to the old folks club. See, now you can accept this music.

I'm an old guy. Slow down. No, but you know what I'm saying? Jokes on you. I've been in my 40s my entire life. Okay. So Desert Island Tracks, you already have come a little closer and Wild is the Wind.

I mean, it's a two for one, so, and they're great. I have Here's to Life. Oh, you're really going on to live with that one. It's just too good, man. I wanted to do that, but I wanted to leave you that because I stole yours last week. Apex Moments. Apex Moments. So I think the last, I'll just play the last minute or so of Wild is the win.

Apex is all this, but this is the last minute. Check this out. my love. Gorgeous. And the only thing added to that, like he could have put strings all over there. It's just that little bit of bells. Everything else is just the trio.

The strings moving with those triples before it, man. It's so well crafted. Yeah, he has great little sparkly things in the percussion all over this album. Yeah, yeah. I would like to now hear the end of Herest Life, please. Thank you. I've been thinking about it since you cut us off so rudely.

So this is your apex moment. Yeah. Okay. We're going to go right to where we came out. This is great. This is iconic. Should this be on our bespoke iconic list of the way records start? How could it be better?

It's so good. Here's to... Here's to love. This is like being in New York, Upper East Side. What's the Algonquin? One of those hotels where everything is just perfect. You get your little martini. Really, really nice stuff.

Why is that the classiest drink? I can take it. Come up with something. Manhattan. How about a Manhattan? You're in Manhattan. Manhattan is a whole class. Fashion maybe.

Old fashion. Yeah, that's... Everyone's wearing perfect clothes. And the French horn, man, again, if you want to talk like a little arranging thing here,

you want to break your audience as hard a little bit? Yeah. Throw it to the horn. Or break their spirits depending on who you have playing for you. Yeah. Not every horn player

can make it sound that good, man. Like, that goes up so high there. Richard Todd killed it. And did you hear, he didn't just go up, like, he kind of vibed his way up before. Yeah, man. It's not, it's not easy.

It's not an easy instrument. It's not an easy instrument. Not an easy instrument. My son is, you know, in seventh grade. He plays the tuba and he's got a whole, they've got a huge band that is school. So like they actually break up the band, the seventh grade band into different sections.

So there's just the brass section. Nice. Rehearses every day together. And he's like, I was like, how's band class going? He's like, oh, it's good. The French horns are fucking up. Oh, sorry. The horns are, it's like, I think horns hard.

And I'm like, yeah, horn's hard, man. It is hard. It is hard. All right. bespoke Spotify playlist why are we promoting Spotify can it just be a bespoke playlist yeah could okay what what do you got i had music for grown folks but you've said it like five times during this podcast so uh so that's that makes it perfect yeah music for grown folks for sure yeah i mean it could also be baby making music for sure but it's like it's like baby making music for grown folks that are still uh of the age to be able to

make babies that's okay we could call it a it a old it's not really baby making views Can you stop saying that? Can we call it maybe like old-fashioned on the Upper East Side? How about that? That would be nice. I like that. I'm going to call it, I got Slow Burn Serenade. That's great. Man, great playlist title.

I mean, the whole record, like each track individually, but even more so like on the macro level, like the whole record is just a slow burn and then it's book. It does kind of go get a little bit out of the ballad thing at different places, but the beginning and the ender, so epic old Hollywood classic that you know it's got so much in them it's just a slow burn um up next these would be uh other albums that you think would pair nicely with this i i'm gonna make a a zig and then a zag so my zig is bill evans from left to right so this is an album where

bill's playing piano and rose and i just think the sound of that album has a somewhat similar quality to this and it's a very romantic album and then stay with me here okay nor joan's come away with So we're talking about a slow burn Man, this was right around that same period too Well, that was about 10 years later Was it? Yeah, 2002 or so. Slow burn

Yeah. Tasty pianist Singing at the same time Right. But very understated. Yeah. A whole different thing. Yeah, no, I think I like that.

I like that. You would go into that. I think the only, no, those are good. We might should do come away with me. That's a great record. I think the only thing with that And really with any of these records, this is such an epic album.

If you listen to this whole thing from beginning and the end, I think you're done for the night. Like, this is be very hard to, like, go right into something else. It's such an emotional, it's not an emotional rollercross. It's just such a deep, mature, reflective, like her precision. We didn't even really talk about her as a reader of lyrics. I think Shirley Horn is unmatched. It's interesting, Mathis, I mean, Mathis, Mandel talking about Johnny Mathis.

The Bruton's in the Johnny. Johnny Mathis, great writer-a-ranger too. But Johnny Mandel, you know, Peggy Lee was another one, great reader of lyrics that he had a big affinity for. But I think that, like, her choosing of the songs on here, I mean, this is just so much emotional, romantic life-depth to these that it would be kind of hard to go on to something else. But I'll throw a couple in there anyway.

Betty Carter dropping things. That was the same year. That was Verve. That was another vocalist, very different kind of record. but another really mature, amazing musician, vocalist, Betty Carter. That's what of her best record. Also, Carmen Rick Ray sings Monk, another one that I was listening to a lot, and I got to hear her doing that.

I don't know that one. Great record. Is that on Verde? I think that's on Verve too, yeah. Quibble bits. Or RCA Novice, one of those. Where do you got? Quibble bits.

I said none, but I, let me hear yours first. Okay. Because I just want to hear it. I think I might possibly have the same one. I want to hear it come out of your mouth before I. So we talked about the arranging process and the recording process and how aside from, was it just Here's to Life that was recorded altogether? Here's to Life and where do you start?

Right. Great Bergman's song, Allen and Marilyn Bergman and Johnny Mandel. So, great song. As good as Here's to Life is with the arrangement, the way it is and the way it was recorded. Would this album have been better had the whole thing been recorded in that way? No. Okay. Not possible to be better.

I'm just saying... It would be great. It's so stunning. It would be different. But wouldn't you like to hear a version of this where everything was done in a big studio in L.A. with a huge string section, all there on the day,

and the arrangements were bespoke for this rather than just layering the orchestra over what she was already doing? I'm just for the sake of argument. You know, I think it sounds like that to most people, including me. I mean, I kind of knew about it because I knew some of the people...

I remember when they were talking about doing this and I knew Richard Seidel a little bit and some of the different people and I heard her a lot. But I think if you're hearing this, it doesn't sound like, I would challenge people track one and track five

if you think they sound any different. I think Here's the Life definitely has a different vibe than everything else. Well, it's different too because it's not like, it's very much an orchestra and although the trio,

I believe, is on there and she's playing piano some, but it's very much a Shirley and orchestra. It's a very specific kind of thing. But I definitely see here where you're coming from. I think that would be an interesting record but to me you would gain some things in terms of that collegiality, I guess you'd call it.

But I also think you might, I think the trio would play a little bit different when you've gotten an arrangement and the orchestra's there and you're kind of like, like they were able to do what they normally do, which was a very restrained and specific thing that had little things jump out at different times.

I feel like I've been on these orchestra sessions when you're playing with the rhythm section, you kind of like, wait, am I, can I play here? Am I matching? Like, you play in a different way. So I think something would be lost there. Very cool. Okay.

Yeah. What do you got? I got no quibble bits because I love this record. Okay. Yeah. Snobometer. I'm going to give it a three. I'm going to give it a four only because it is very sleepy.

Like it is very slow-paced. Very slow-paced. And so you have to be ready for that, I think. So snobs are ready for that? Um, I think if no one knew this or knew Shirley Horn or knew about this genre. Yeah. It would be tough without some kind of like, oh, I want to, you know what I mean?

Like, you'd have to really lean into like, we're here for a while and we're not doing much. So that would actually push it more towards snobby then. Because Aunt Linda would be like, I need some more. I don't know who this is. Whereas Ethan I would be like, yeah, I'm a snob of my music. This is her specialty. I'm good with it all being.

Exactly. Exactly. Oh, that's why you had four and I had three. Yeah, I got four, which is still not very snobby. No, that's true. I mean, this is like one of the best-selling jazz records of the, It's all good. The night of all time.

It's not very snobby, but I do feel like, because it is slower-paced and there's no like real like, you know, you know, some kind of big swinging number in there that, you know what I mean? Yeah. Some kind of bigger. Yeah, showy piece or anything like that.

Oh, it would be so great if I had that. It would not be. I mean, it doesn't need it at all, but... Is it better than KOP? No. Man, I wrote no, but excruciatingly close. You can't just say no. You can't just say, you can't just say,

Yes or no. I'm going to say equal. Are you really? I really am. Oh, my God. Because I love, I feel like... Caleb, can we tally how many equals that is for Peter? Well, but those are great records, man.

Because to me, KLB is amazing, but it's not like it's the greatest record ever and everything else fails in comparison. Okay. I mean, what would you say, secrets? I don't think KOB? You love that record. I think I might, yeah. Okay. Okuchamaltz.

I have five. Yeah. I'll give it seven just because it's surely, but it's a little bit of weird spacing with the big logo and stuff. I'm not crazy about that, but it doesn't matter. We talked to the last episode

about when we were talking about Joshua Redmond's period of the moment, 95. 90s were an interesting aesthetic time. Yeah. Yeah. Not a high point. All right, we are shilling for comments,

ratings, and reviews. We're threatening to bring the gala back. Can we bring it back? The gentleman and ladies' agreement. Exactly. Tell them what it is. So I don't know. It's like the snobometer to me.

I really don't understand it. And I don't understand the gentleman's a lady's agreement. We provide you, if you've made it this far, I think you either fell asleep and you're just waking up or you actually enjoy what the hell we're talking about here, which is really we're not talking about anything except just listening to enjoying and connecting with the humanity of us with you guys, with everything, of this great music,

in this turbulent crazy world that we have, we've got things like hears to life. And so that's really what we're celebrating here. We're having fun with it because this music is amazing, but it's meant to be live with. You know what I mean? Shirley Horn isn't with us anymore, but I still remember the last time I got to hear her live

and got to hang out with her a little bit and her spirit is still here. So we're trying to keep that alive. And we're doing that for free for you guys, although it's not free. There's an agreement that you have made by staying. If you still are listening, you are agreeing. So are you there?

You're there. Gentlemen, this and ladies agree. But we give you a free podcast. You go and leave us a rating review or comment. Some kind of engagement. both. You got to go leave a rating of review on Apple or Spotify and then you got to go to the YouTube comments and say Gala. You can say something else too. Gala adhered to GALA, gentlemen and ladies and you can say, you can comment that on Spotify as well. You can't. You can't see it because

we haven't figured that out yet, but you can do it. Speaking of comments, we've got a couple. You want to read one of these and I'll read one? So this is off of YouTube. This is from Katie Day. You guys are not only the best music podcast, but simply the best music related material on the internet educational or otherwise. Thank you for your service salute thank you katie day katie you are not overstating our level of expertise i would say um diane b dain b f7 a3 says i need this pod to stay forever it's great such a good format to go over classic albums and still keep the essence of the old pod with covering the musical theory and ideas going on and the music appreciate you guys we appreciate you we appreciate

everybody who's listening and watching and we hope peace and love uh is enveloping you in this world and what you're love why are you looking to me like that man i'm just i'm getting settled metal man i'm we listen to here's the life man here's to here's to pod here's to here's to pod pop a pot till next time you'll hear it