You'll Hear It: Full Album Deep Dives with Jazz Musicians - A Conversation With Nicholas Payton (Part 1)

Episode Date: May 11, 2021

A live conversation and interview with Grammy award winning trumpeter, composer, producer, blogger, and #BAM codifier, Nicholas Payton!Links from this episode:Check out Nicholas Payton's official website hereSee Nicholas Payton's Tiny Desk performance hereBuy his classic album Nick@Night with this linkPrefer your podcasts in video form? Watch the YouTube version of this episode hereInterested in more music advice? Go here to browse our catalog of jazz lessons and courses available for purchase. And be sure to check out our All Access Pass - every course from Open Studio on every instrument.Let us know what you think by leaving a ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ review, or head over to our YouTube channel.Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

Our guest today is Nicholas Payton, a multi-dimensional Grammy Award-winning artist that hails from what I consider to be our most multi-dimensional and fertile artistic city, New Orleans. Nicholas grew up in a musical family. His mother, Maria Payton, was a classical pianist and operatic singer. His father, Walter Payton, Jr., a legendary bassist and educator who I had the pleasure of playing with and getting to hang around with some. Nicholas is primarily known as a trumpeter In fact, one of the leading trumpeters of our or any generation as well as the heir apparent to the rich lineage of New Orleans trumpet masters Going back to King Oliver and Louis Armstrong

I would say Buddy Bolden as well But I don't think anyone's actually heard buddy Bolden play But by reputation for sure But I can tell you that trumpet player only scratches the surface in describing Nicholas I would better characterize Nick as a creator or a creative. Yes, he's an amazing trumpeter, but equally talented and productive as a composer, producer, pianist, bassist, drummer, writer, blogger.

But you hadn't heard that term in a while, blogger. And all around leading advocate and voice for our music. He's a fearless, direct, he's highly informed. And in my experience, amazingly spot on when he speaks of anything musical and creative, as well as their intersection with politics. And that has actually remained constant since I first met Nick when he was just 17 years old.

Nicholas is the originator of the term BAM, Black American music, and hashtag BAM, and has penned numerous writings and led many discussions of the problems surrounding the name and associations of the term jazz or jazz. His thoughtful and tireless promotion of BAM has gained steam in many ways

over the past 10 years, culminating in being included as one of the New York Times 10 definitive moments, the decade in jazz. I didn't even know the New York Times had such a list. Did you know that, Adam? I did not know that. They did. Nicholas has released over 20 albums as a leader,

first on the Verve label, starting in the mid-90s, with some of the finest records of that era. And I know that because I was around during that era, culminating with a personal favorite of mine in 2000, Nick at Night, with the classic Nicholas Peyton Quintet, Ruben Rogers, Adonis Rose, Anthony Wanzi, Tim Warfield.

Nicholas has remained prolific throughout his career as leader, as a sideman, a producer, eventually developing his own label, Paytonn Records, with his latest release, Meister Rhythm King, and Quarantine with Nick, which is a killing album. It's got a scary cover. Don't let it scare you off. Don't sleep on that one. It also came out like the first week of quarantine. That's Nick Payton, man.

He's always ahead of the curve. Nick has played and recorded with way too many legendary artists to list I'll throw out a few Danny Barker Ellis Marsalis Clark Terry Elvin Jones and Art Blakey and those he played with and recorded with just before he even turned 20 years old so that explains why I can't list all the other ones I've also had the pleasure of playing and recording with Nicholas for over 30 years now wow including I just now that now that I said it there there's 30 years wow Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was able to feature Nicholas on my 2001, my first release on Max Jazz, something unexpected, which was a great record. A joy and honor. And a forthcoming recording, maybe from just last year, the last time I was in a studio was actually with Jeff Clap and Ruben Rogers and Nicholas Payton a couple days before the pandemic hit hard. We're going to get into all that, hopefully, but it's my pleasure to welcome Mr. Nicholas Payton. What's up, Nick? Hey. Yo, yo, yo, you know. How you doing? Just starting a little fire here.

That's right. I think probably after you saw our technical proficiency, you're like, oh, I got to spark it up now. Got to burn some Palo Santo for you, cats. Well, man, thank you so much for being here and for joining us. And it's always a pleasure to talk with you. And, you know, I'm such an intersection of a friend and a fan. So I don't know what you call that, but that's me.

And I've always just looked up to you in terms of your not only amazing musician, and I've been on the bandstand with you many times, so I've experienced that and also, you know, heard your bands. But you've developed this a whole other kind of, I don't even want to say, sideline career, a parallel track of really the conscious and a commentator. And I would even say critic of this music and the direction that we're going for our generation and beyond. And it's just an amazing thing to see from close up and from far away.

So I just wanted to commend you on that. And I was going to ask you first, though, about like what's been happening with you over the last 14 months? We saw each other in March. I think it was the second week when we were in the studio and got to play together. And I remember we were even then, we're like, wait, do we hug or do we shake hands? It was during that kind of funny period then. But I know you've done a bunch of great, great live streams and recordings and stuff. But what else has been happening?

Yeah. Let's see. Yeah, right at the start of the lockdown, I hold up in my crib with Sasha Masikowski and Cliff Hines, and we made the quarantine with Nick album. It's funny because we had just done a gig at this place called the side, what's it called? I'm not remembering the name of the joint. But we had just done a gig days before the lockdown, and we were saying, we should really get it was like we've done a handful of gigs together and was like we should really get together to record but none of our schedule was cut in line and then he started announcing that they were going to lock this shit down and i was like uh we're all available now so let's do

it so uh we uh that weekend friday to 13th saturday uh we recorded two days at my crib cliff who plays modular synth but was also our recording engineer uh he recorded the project on Ableton mixed it, sent it to my mastering guy, and it's to date my fastest release from recording to mixing and mastering two weeks out to the public to what I think might be possibly the world's first COVID-19 record. It had to be. I remember when it came out. I was like, what does he know that we didn't know?

I know. Well, and it was super confusing to me because I saw I I had seen you, Nick, literally like nine days before. And so I was like, I was like, if he was planning this, he definitely was, he definitely kept it a good secret. He's super relaxed. I wasn't talking about any of this stuff. Yeah. So that's, that's amazing. And then, you know, you did a string of just amazing live streams early on.

That's actually really, you know, inspired me to try to do some stuff because I was kind of like, oh, I guess we're not going to be touring or playing or anything. And then I was like, dang, Nick made a record. He's doing live concerts. Two records. Two records. But how did that come about? And, you know, how much of that have you done?

I know you're going to continue doing that. And what was the experience like for you playing for no audience, playing for an audience, but one that wasn't physically there before? And how did you kind of navigate those waters? Yeah. You know, me, for me, art, as an artist as a being on this planet

I kind of live it you know with my heart on my sleeve you know so like any type of calamity or destruction I just put it into the music

you know to me that's the whole point of art is that it's not not only serves as a form of catharsis but it's a healing and to me ultimately it's a way for us to

not only have fellowship with one another, but hopefully in terms of the listeners and the supporters out there, I want to try to hopefully inspire and elevate them. And I felt like now more than ever we really need this music. So as an artist, I feel like this is why I was put here. It's not my responsibility to get off my ass and like really, you know, create, you know, But it just really made me want to hunker down and like do it to the help more so than normal. That's what's so inspiring about your music. It always has been, but especially now during these times, every time I check myself against what I see you doing. I'm like, nope, that's not honest enough.

It's not, you know, you mentioned the heart on your sleeve. I'm like, I could be more honest with this. I could be more me in my art. It's incredibly inspiring to watch, man, and we'll hear for sure. Yeah, and that's kind of what I was alluding to in the introduction, you know, for you, Nick, is just that I never saw, you know, once you started writing and becoming an essayist and cultural commentator, especially around, you know, the issues of jazz and bam and the origins of this music and all these different issues. I saw it very much as an extension because we played music together a lot and I was around you during my formative years

which was weird because you're younger but you're already formed I never could figure that out but it was like I know I was like but you know you've always been such an honest musician and people would be like man did you hear what Nick said did you hear what Nick wrote? I was like yeah that's like that would that's you've always been that

since you were a teenager and I always admired that because most people have to grow into that. And it's been exciting to see you growing into it being more acknowledged and understood and really becoming a worldwide phenomenon. I mean, it's over this last, when did you come up with, was it like 2011, 2012, BAM? 2011. And that was that first blog post, right? Right, right.

It was interesting because the funny part is I had started writing about it like two years prior. So it's just as much of a mystery to me as anyone else why that particular post set off the firestorm that it did. I was actually in Baltimore in my hotel room right before Soundcheck, Warren Wolf brought me to Baltimore to do a gig. And I was just tweeting at the time. This was when Twitter was really hot. And I just got these stream of conscious tweets. So I did that. It was about a good 45 minutes an hour I was doing it.

And I was noticing that I was getting like a very strong reaction to these tweets. And I said, I might be on to something here. So I copied and pasted each tweet into a line into a WordPress document. So a lot of people call the piece a poem or a manifesto. And it was not conceived as a whole. So really every line in that piece is actually. a different tweet. Wow.

And that was what it was, you know. It was a rework in real time like a solo. Basically, it was like an improvisation. Amazing. Wow. And then can you just talk a little bit about what you've seen as, you know, the evolution over the, I mean, it's crazy now. Now we talk about now it's a decade. It's 2021, right?

So the evolution of the discussion around, you know, the disposal. of the term jazz. And I don't know if you do, do you see BAM as a replacement per se for the term? I know that you see it as a much more inclusive term than what had been looked at before as jazz. But like how do you see that evolution over this last 10 years? Have you felt that as a steady thing or was there kind of like a certain tipping point where it just started to become more accepted? Good questions.

No, BAM is not a replacement term for jazz because I think a lot of the initial concern among so-called jazz musicians was that, well, how do I make the distinction between what I do from gospel and R&B and hip-hop? And my point was, I don't want a distinction because these are all different branches on the same truth. I think the problem with jazz

is that it separated itself from the whole of black music and more importantly, the popular specter. Because so-called jazz is essentially America's the world's first pop music. But when jazz created this very elitist idea that somehow it was better than the roots from which it came, I think it's actually suffered. And pop music has suffered.

Because now your current pop artist doesn't have an idea that Lewis Armstrong should be as important to them as he is to do. as he is to us, or Billy Holiday. This is the great work of American popular music and song, and we all should be borrowing and listening to one another because they're all a part of this umbrella of black American music. And I think one often misunderstood thing is that,

first, that I'm on a campaign to change people from using the word jazz. I don't really care. I don't want my music referred to that, but I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should call what they do is one thing. And the other thing is, yeah, the whole point is to establish a family within the whole of these black music, not this elitist idea that somehow jazz is more important or more intellectual or so forth. I think those are the things that serve to kill the music because when people want to go out for a weekend, and maybe they can only afford to go out once a month. Well, do we want to listen to this jazz where it's a stuffy environment?

We can't talk. We can't have a good time. We can't dance. We have to have a thousand records in our collection to be able to understand what they do. No, I want my music to be as sociable and enjoyable as everything else people listen to. And yes, it perhaps has that intellectual headroom if you want to listen to it. But me personally, I don't even mind if folks are talking. talking while I'm playing.

And maybe I attribute that to perhaps my upbringing in New Orleans, not only playing outside and second line street band culture, but also like in New Orleans, like you playing clubs and people talk. Music is a part of the social environment. And I think this idea that you have this jazz quiet policyware, and they make this announcement before the show, kind of puts a damper on the whole thing to me. I don't like that vibe.

I'm happy for people to be talking. It only really bothers me if it's like one couple loud and we're playing a ballad or something. But really a general hum of conversation is cool. What I don't like is when people are staring at me quiet. Like I'm in a cage in a museum or something shit. Like talk amongst yourselves. Enjoy it.

Someone's spending $200 to come hear me at the Blue Note with a date and you mean you can't talk to the person you brought. Like, this costs a lot of money for you. And maybe you might get lucky. and maybe you wind up getting married and having a child all spurred on by my music. Isn't that the point? Like, I feel flattered if my music contributed to the life force of this life. Wow.

Also, like, when we listen to the great records, let's take someone who was considered almost a cocktail musician, the great Ahmad Jamal, very polite, quiet music as he was categorized. If you listen to live with the Persian, there are people talking all through that thing. Right. It's not a quiet room at all. Dishes clanging. So when did we get, yeah, when did we get so precious where people can't talk amongst themselves?

Doesn't mean they're not listening. Right. I mean, but this is kind of a revolutionary thing, I think, an angle and kind of, you know, lens that you're, that you're describing here because isn't it part of like what became sort of the advanced and elevated jazz aesthetic was about we have a listening policy? this is a quiet room. You have to do your homework. This is music to be put into a museum.

And so we are going to charge $200. And it's, you know, this is better than other music because you can tap your foot to it, maybe, but you better keep that in your shoes. It better not come out, you know, above it. And it feels like, you know, we can certainly blame promoters and, you know, the whole infrastructure of the music that started to do this. But I also feel like a lot of musicians, we were kind of to, because we've bought into that.

And I think that might be why there's been a lot of pushback against us because it feels great to be like, oh, yes, we're elevated. Now we're at the level where we're like classical music. We're going to be in the great halls of Europe and people are going to bow down to us and we're going to be at this other kind of a level, you know? And look what's happening with classical music. They're trying to get more in on what we're doing and other popular music because the audience is doing them because the shit is dated.

Like no one wants to sit still in their seats and feel like they have to be quiet. music and listening to music should be an active engagement if you choose to. Right, right. I think, too, you hit on something. And I really wanted to talk about this because you have such a great concept on this. And people are so interested in that. And that is just what New Orleans is culturally with music. And you kind of hit on it that it's something that that is experienced in a way that's really

different than just about anywhere I've ever been. And I was fortunate enough to kind of have my formative years in New Orleans. And so it became normal to me. And it was such a gift that I got. But I think that when you describe this kind of, you know, cultural aesthetic that exists there, that definitely transcends any kind of like labels of music, of different kinds of music. And what that, that black American music experience that that came forth that is certainly exemplified all around the world, but probably in New Orleans more so than anywhere

where you can see not only the threads of it but it's still existing and like where it comes from. Yeah, but can you just talk about that? Yeah, yeah, just. Yeah, because it's like the only city in the world where you can have a band assemble that lives in the neighborhood. They take it to the streets. People come out of their houses

and everyone from the two-year-old to the 102-year-old knows what body movements corresponds with certain rhythms and so forth. So the music is actually a part of the social fabric of the city in a way that it's not something looked at as entertainment or something we do on the weekends or only at the club and party. It's a part of the everyday fabric of how the city moves.

And I think that relationship to me is something that I've carried, and I'm sure for you as well, Peter, to our every experience that we have, even when we're in a Carnegie Hall or at a North Sea Jazz, festival or whatever the venue is and i think that's what makes new orleans musicians in particular uh such a hot commodity amongst the world because there are they are they are they never lose that sensibility of community and how music touches people which is the point of us playing music for people is that we reach them you know yeah absolutely um oops there we go there we go um

Nick, I've got so many questions, I want to ask you. No, that's going to go, man. So one is, can you talk a little bit just about the 90s? And, like, what was the jazz aesthetic there? Like, you know, we've talked about this. I feel pictures are coming on. No, no, no, I'm not going to, well, I might pull out a few people. I got some pictures.

Man, I got a bunch of pictures of that jazz futures to tour a red date, bro. Oh, man, okay, I got to see that. I don't have, yeah, I don't really have. any of them from from then so yeah but i'd love for hear your memories of that so what nick is just referring to we were in jazz features two peter what was your oak tree budget like back then oh man my oak tree budget was good and so was the whole bands man but um yeah we were in two not to be confused with one but that was another i mean i mean i think about like we had such a fun time on that tour and playing but i mean you talk about formative years but it was nicholas peyton

on trumpet of chorus, Herb Harris. I haven't heard that name in a minute on tenor, Ronald Westray trombone, Chris Thomas on bass, and Brian Blade on drums. But I think that the whole

sort of 90s jazz vibe, like where do you think that that sort of places, like where is that going to end up being placed historically and like what is the impact on young musicians today? And I'm thinking about, you know, for sure like Josh Redmond's group and your classic groups,

some others that I can't, you know, I mean, just everybody. Where do you see that from a kind of historical perspective now? The feeling I get from my students and the younger cats is that they view that as sort of like a heyday, which, you know, in retrospect that I look at it, it was the last hurrah. It was the milk and honey years before the door kind of closed on that, idea. That was when there was, you know, big budgets. You know, my first album, you know, my first five

album deal with Verde, you know, I got 100,000 on signing. Like, that's just unheard of in today's culture. Now we've transitioned to, I see people doing kickstarts to even be on a major label, which the paradigm has completely shifted where, like, record companies would give you to a support, or if you had to go out to WBGO while you were doing what we could, the vanguard, the record company would pick up the band in a stretch limousine, take you guys out there in a day, bringing you back. They would buy tickets and seats at the club if you were a beginning artist to make sure that you did well so that the numbers look good. So the next time you establish this reputation of selling tickets. Wait, those folks weren't there to hear us

play? Well, you burst my bubble, man. I thought all those people were there for us. But back then to the record company people came, like all the staff came at least once. It was just a part of the process. It wasn't expected. No, I would say it was expected if you had a gig at a label that you loved the music. So it was your responsibility when your artist came to town that you would at least once go down to the club. And what that does is it fosters an environment of when people are invested in your music. they have more interest to see that it does well.

So when the people at your record company have actually broken bread with you and gone to dinners with you and gone out to that trip to BGA with you and come down to the club several times that week, and they know all the band members. They're really working on behalf of people they considered family. Yeah. So the vibration at that time at Verve just very much felt like a family. And I remember us being at a Verve party once. And it was the first time I met Abby Lincoln,

Abby Lincoln and she was just this beautiful being and she came up to you. She was like, yeah, Nicholas, this is just so great, this energy. And here's someone who has been in the business, maybe 30, 40 years at this point. She's like, I've never been a part of this kind of family before. And that was just a vibe in the situation. There was a lot of camaraderie. You know, when my band would play the Vanguard, you would have Lou Donaldson in there, Betty Carter in there, James Wool.

Williams in there, Steve Turd, Tudorays in there. He sat and I actually posted a recording that we did one of the nights I played in the Vanguard right before we did Peyton's plays. And there were just so many luminaries there just to check the music up. No one paid them to be there. It wasn't because it was the It Spot per se, but because everyone was just invested in the music. And I think the overall carryout from the 90s I get was that there was more accountability. camaraderie more people going to each other's gates checking everybody else out it wasn't as clickish as it seems now and so You know if this is going over here this is going over there everybody was still kind of like a community and that there two things that often attribute to the

big change in New York To things kind of being like more like where they are now which is our Blakey passing away that was a big blow and the closing of Bradley's and Bradley's I feel like no other club has picked up that slap because I kind of feel like

there's no other club in New York since where everybody necessarily feels comfortable whereas if Bradley's you'd have Roy Hargrove in there Jackie Terrison in there Mulbrough Miller Betty Carter did we lose him

no he's still a call came in And sorry. Oh, no, you're good. Yeah. You still there? Okay, call came in and wiped the screen. But yeah, Betty Carter would be in there. Cecil Taylor would be in there.

All generations of musicians, Elvin Jones, would go there and hang out for days. Yep. And what was it? Everybody was there. What was it about Art Blakey that with his passing, you think? Well, he had established this lineage of artists who he was mentoring from the 50s on through to his.

his passing. So it was a real institution. It was a real training ground. And even like Pora Silver, another one, who actually started the Messy Bruce, and that was his band, he basically gave it to hire. But you had these lineages established, and that was the time where it was the masters who decided who the next cat was. And somewhere in the 90s or towards the end, Then you started seeing the magazines or the Grammys or these different ancillary institutions deciding who the next cat was. It wasn't press-based then. It was strictly this cat played with an Elvin Jones or played in this band or played with Abingham Lincoln or came through Betty Carter School. This is how we know Greg Hutchinson is the next drummer to watch out for because he played with Betty.

He played with Ray Brown. This is the next cat. We lost, we kind of lost a little bit of that. So I would say that's one of the singular differences between then and now. Now, oh, can I curse on here? Yeah, sure. Shit, yeah. So, yeah, okay.

I'm not trying to shit. I'm not trying to shit on the younger generations. Because in many respects, they have to do what they have to do. And the opportunities for them to learn aren't as fruitful for them as they were for us coming up in the generations that we did in the 90s. But I do think that there needs to be more of a motive on their part to study, if at all, possible, under tutelage, under Masters. And maybe that looks different now because you have people like Carl Allen or like

the late great Ralph Peterson teaching at institutions like Berkeley and Julia, respectively, and so forth. So maybe that's the new training round. so to speak. But yeah, to me, it's crucial as a young musician to really learn how to play and you want to be a master artist and a musician. You have to be around and study and play with master artists and musicians. You're predecessors.

There's no way around that. There's no course or amount of records that is going to be able to supplement or be a substitute. for that master the student passing down of the torch, if you will. It's part of the culture, yeah. Because when we talk about black American music, that's actually the point, because in its essence, it's African. So we all are indebted to a more African aesthetic of the passing down of information, as opposed to maybe a more Eurocentric mindset of studying and reading books and so forth.

And that's not to say that one is better than the other. They're just different. And in the African tradition, it's more folkloric. It's more about the real tradition of the elder sharing stories to the young ones coming up. You know, I can say for a fact that, you know, my years with Roy Haynes, he didn't talk about music or how he wanted his music played. But just from one crack on the snare drum, I felt like he calibrated my time. I felt like my feel from the two years before I worked with Roy Haynes after I can credit him with completely changing my swing quotient.

Wow. You know, and that's just something you can't get from a record. That's something you can't get in a classroom, I don't think. Right. I think it's one of the great things about the BAM movement about Black American music is amongst all the other things that that framework shift of calling the music this is, that it teaches you how to learn the music. Like, it's all there. It's all there in the culture. It's just for you to understand that and recognize that. It's, you know, because we, our business around here is teaching people how to play music better. And so to say, like, it's there in those

masters of black American music. You just have to go seek that out. That's the way. That's the only way, you know. I'm just wondering. Absolutely. I'm just wondering too, Nick, it's you, you made a, I'm wondering if part of the thing that was maybe lost, I don't want to say lost forever because I feel like there can be some reconnections and everybody's recalibrating now, obviously anyway, as we come out of, you know,

whatever this pause period we were in, but when you were talking about Verve and that being kind of a, you know, a very special time, Abby Lincoln, Betty Carter, Shirley Horn, Joe Henderson,

you had the older musicians who actually weren't that old. We're almost as old as they were at that time, you know, but we were. were like the masters like and it wasn't even like oh do you think you know abby's better than i mean no they were all their own people but none of us questioned because we understood like how we graded people they could play they could sing like there was a there was a common you know understanding that that nobody ever argued about with them but that but then the record labels had a huge amount

of power compared to now which is like none because they're not really around but they were like verve at least was in sync with that in the same way blue note has been a different different times or whatever. But then Verve also had, you know, yourself and Roy Hargrove and Mark Whitfield and, you know, this great group of younger musicians kind of in the making. And there was almost like this tacit approval from the masters to the young players and you guys were all together. Maybe that's kind of what Abby was alluding to, you know, that story would, you know, and they would argue, you know, we, we know all the great stories about Betty versus Abby or whatever. But it was all about like, no, no, we have to go to this next level. And, you know,

Cecil Taylor and Betty and, you know, going back and forth at the Vanguard and at Bradley's. I mean, that stuff is priceless. And I do wonder, like, what do you see as the, as the clearest path to,

to us not trying to duplicate that time? Because you can never, you know, make it happen again, but to get back to that kind of camaraderie, that kind of fellowship within the music among the generations, all the things that this music has always exemplified so well. Like, because people be like,

how can you have different age? I'm like, that's just the way we do. I mean like it's always been like that and it's always come so natural. So like how do we get back to that? That's an easy question. I think it's as simple as starting by going out to one another's gigs and being present. You know, because I know from me at that time when I knew Betty was in the back and, you know,

whomever Javon Jackson or the cats, man, you really want to play it because you know they're listening. So I try to do more of that now and I've been doing a lot of that recently now that stuff has been opening up I've been going back on Frenchman a bit and hanging a bit and sitting in and even if I don't sit in necessarily just your presence I think is affirming to the current in younger generations and the younger cats should also go to the older cats gate to learn and to be in that space and and even just from a networking perspective, not to say that you should go with hopes of trying to land a gig, but all too often I get calls or emails or texts from young cats, like, hey, I want to play with you. I want to play with you. But when I'm in your city, I never see you there. Right. So if you love my music and you want the gig that bad, you should be there every time you possibly

can when I go through your city. Right. At least that way, I know that you, I see your face, So I recognize you as an established relationship. And I know you know my music. You know, it can't just be a business deal. Like you're going to text your way into my band. It doesn't work like that. It's just a little contrived and enforced. You know, it should be a very natural relationship.

Like, I know your pianist. I see you every time I come to your city. You show up. Maybe sometimes you sit in. So I know this cat already has a vibe and a feel for what it is that I do. So when my regular pianist can't make it, you'll be the next option I think of. Or you might get the gig next. It should be more organic.

So I think, yeah, I think it starts at just us showing up and being present at gigs. And that's something that the late great Roy Hargrove was just real great at. And it's something I admired about him. And I was inspiring. I started hanging out a bit. We got really close because I hadn't seen him for like a good 10 years maybe. Wow. And then the last two years of his life, we hung out quite a bit.

And we were running into each other at smalls or the zinc bar and so forth. And I really admire, he was there every night. Yes. After Gage's, if he was on tour, when he'd come back, he'd go straight downtown and go to the clubs. And he would bitch to me about it. I don't know how much the young cats knew. He would talk about they can't play. They're afraid of swing.

Like he would have a lot of him. But it never stopped him. It never stopped him from going because he realized the importance and the value of that. And now that he's not doing that anymore, those of us who are here, his brothers, we need to put to insisting, we need to pick up the slap. Someone has to be in the trenches, reaching down and pulling the youth up, as our elders did for us, because they didn't have to give us the opportunities they did. I certainly feel like there were better trumpet players, Elvin maybe could have called. But he decided to give this young cat from the one of the shot. And we kind of have to pick up that slap.

Oh, man, this is such important words in what you're saying. I love this. And I think that, you know, it's easy for us and our generation to be, you know, like they need to come out and show up and they do. But thinking about what you just said, I realized, like, when we were coming up, we didn't have, there was no texting Betty Carter or our Blakey because that just wasn't out. So we did have an advantage in that we didn't have these options. I think a lot of, you know, with social media, with all the great things as far as you can connect with somebody. You know, if there's a young trumpet player in California that's just coming up now, like they could actually connect with you. Maybe even get a lesson or, you know, something gets some feedback maybe even, especially, you know, when everyone's locking down.

But, I mean, there wouldn't be any connection back when we were coming up except for when the cats would come through town or whatever. But maybe it makes it harder for the younger players to. realize what you just mentioned, that personal connection, that being on the gig, being present physically in the community, because you feel like you can get everything. It's like, well, I know Nick's whole thing. I've got his

transcriptions. I've seen him on YouTube. I've seen him do workshops. And so I'm good. And then a lot of musicians are shy anyway, so they kind of take that. But I love this idea of going out there. And I think for sure, Roy was just a leader. I mean, he is funny you say, you know, like when he come back to New York, he's doing

the same thing on the road, too. That was like a 24 that was like 7365 for him he'd be like we would do gigs and you know and and roy be getting tired at the end of the gig we're like ah but you're not going to hang out tonight and then as soon as the gig was like oh no i'm hanging you know like come on let's go to this session i was like what how do you know where there's a session in this little french town man but um i think you've done a a great job of of really connecting and it feels like in a strange i always looked at you and roy for our generation And this just shows how fortunate I've been. You, the two trumpet players that I played with the most from like the age, you know, 20 through now.

And just bragging. Just out here bragging. Now I'm just throwing names around. See. But I always felt like you guys, you know, because you were great trumpet players, but composers and like really leaders of this music, you know, through this different time. And I remember talking to you back of the day, Nick. I'd be like, Roy said this. And then I realized I was like, wait, they haven't really hung out.

I remember talking to Roy about you and he's like, yeah, what's up with that? Like, I was like, yeah, you guys never really hung out until you got on verve and stuff and started doing some things together. And you probably were hearing about each other as like, there's this cat there or whatever. From way, way back, yeah, through Winton, actually. Like when I was 12, 13, you would be like, man, there's this cat, Roy Hargrove and Dallas. And when I got to know Roy later, he was like, yeah, Wentwood tell me about you when I was a teenager in school.

So we like heard about each other for years before we actually met, you know. Right. Right. But I mean, I feel like you've, you know, kind of taken the baton since Roy's, you know, premature and, you know, passing in a lot of ways in a really, you know, profound and thoughtful way that goes way beyond trumpet players and a fraternity there, which of course is there. But I think that this idea that, you know, you're talking about now is going to be so important. I know last year, or I guess it was a year before when I did the Betty Carter Jazz Ahead program at the Kennedy's. Center and had all these great young players together, you know, that they do, which is really coming out of, you know, Betty's whole vision. I mean, she started that whole thing.

I remember talking with the young students and they hit on some of these same things that you're talking about from the 90s. They're like, man, we just want to get out and play. And I'm looking at them. I'm like, man, you guys is so hip for you. Like, we were waiting around for record deals and only a few of it. Not like we all had record. I never had a big record deal.

But I'm like, now you guys can go make things happen. And they were kind of like, well, we don't want to go. We don't want to be on social. We want to have what you guys had at that time. And that was a real eye-opener for me because I was like, wow, you actually can have it. But they do need us to kind of show them that, I guess, in a lot of ways. Yeah. It's about, I think, you know, bridging that gap.

You know, they also have a lot of advantages that we don't, for instance, you know, the idea that you can do a record at your house now. Yeah. That's studio-grade quality and releases. to people without the middleman of the record company, without having to have tens of thousands of dollars. I mean, a home studio back in the 90s was something only of, was a luxury only afforded to the rich. Now anybody can have a home studio for very little money and make a quality product.

And you can distribute it through social media and go viral and really not need the labels and have all the money and own your masters. So that's something we couldn't do, like owning your masters back then and still having a viable career and being able to connect. That's something that we had to go through the systems in place. So there's a given take there as far as like,

well, what's better or what's worse? I think that the idea is that, as you said, like, you know, if, if we guide them and really show them, give them the tools for which we've learned, but it's up to them to carry it the next step, the next step further. You know, we pass it down to them

and they take it a little further as we did for those who preceded us. Absolutely.